On with Kara Swisher - Sarah Jessica Parker Talks Show Business, Shoe Business and More Business

Episode Date: June 29, 2023

After Kara and Nayeema debate the future of Hollywood (including the ongoing WGA strike and the soon expiring deal between SAG-AFTRA and the studios), we turn to Hollywood star and entrepreneur Sarah Jessica Parker. The actor speaks about reprising her iconic role of Carrie in Sex and the City in its latest iteration, And Just Like That. Plus, we dig into her businesses from wine to heels — and talk about the business of Hollywood, including why SJP remains bullish on cinema.  Need advice?! We have an upcoming episode where Kara and Nayeema tackle your Qs about career, love, or life in general. Call 1-888-KARA-PLZ and leave us a voice note with a question that could feature on the show. Other questions or Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on social media. We’re @karaswisher and @nayeemaraza on Instagram and SJP is (what else could it be?) @SJP. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Claude Sonnet can generate code, help with writing, and reason through hard problems better than any model before. You can discover how Claude can transform your business at anthropic.com slash Claude. from new york magazine and the vox media podcast network this is the ring announcer for elon and zuck's mma cage match just kidding this is on with kara swisher and i'm kara swisher and i'm naima raza it would actually be great casting yeah i'm not doing the whole thing is idiotic and it's childish i'm sorry i have I have no time for these two. I've turned down every single TV hit asking me about this. Well, I will ask you a question about it then. All right. Do you think it will happen? No, of course not. If it were to happen, who would win? Well, Zuckerberg, obviously, but Elon's got the weight on him because he's a small walrus,

as he says, a self-described small walrus. But it's just ridiculous. It's where we are in discussions with corporate people. Can you imagine Bob Iger challenging Brian Roberts to a wrestling match? It's crazy. No, but I know who would win. Yeah, well. Bob Iger. It used to be that the masses gathered, and particularly the wealthy gathered, to watch poor people fight Roman gladiators. And now the world is maybe going to gather to watch that. It would be the most televised, most watched event.

It's a sign of our times, and it's grotesque and tasteless and stupid. We're going to talk today to our guest, Sarah Jessica Parker, who would never enter a cage with these people, I think. She'd also kick their ass. She'd stick her Manalo Blahniks, or in her case, her shoes. Her SJPs, yeah. Into their noggins, and that would be the end of it. And I wish she would.

Unfortunately for you, it's not going to end like that. But we will have Sarah Jessica Parker and her very nice shoes on in a minute to talk about her work, her many businesses, and also the actors, the Screen Actors Guild, SAG-AFTRA. Because it's very timely right now. SAG-AFTRA's deal with the studios and the streamers expires on this last day of June on Friday. And there's a very real fight playing out right now, of course, in Hollywood between the studios and the unions, especially the Writers Guild, of which I'm a member. A lot has happened in the last 60 days of this strike. WGA walked into it with, I think, a lot of solidarity with all the unions, really. And I think that solidarity is still there, but it's definitely harder right now. The DGA, the Directors Guild, has reached

weeks ago terms of agreement with the studios. SAG-AFTRA had voted to authorize a strike. 98% of its members voted to authorize a strike earlier this month. However, we're told that negotiations with the studios are promising for SAG. 300 of their members still don't seem very happy. I think Meryl Streep and others signed a letter just yesterday saying that they're willing to strike if they do not get the terms that are needed from the studios. What do you think is going to happen in Hollywood? I think SAG and WGA are overplaying their hand. They're not very big. They're very loud. You know, lots of unions are much bigger and aren't this loud. And I think they should settle for the best they can get.

But things are changing economically. And this is a gift to the studios not to have to spend money on this stuff. Yeah, nobody wants to be on strike. But I was recently out with a number of actors who were saying that, look, it's been COVID, they want to get back to work. But I think at the same time, the Writers Guild throughout history has been ahead of a lot of trends, you know, like no one was going on strike over Quibi, but they did go on strike in the I think 1950s, 60s around TV. I mean, it's the job of writers to imagine, you know, futures. Well, that's when they had leverage. They don't have leverage right now in this environment at all. We don't have leverage because? Because there's too much content. There's been so much spending on the content. People are not clamoring for more content right now. And

these studios have got to find more economic ways of creating content. And I get that the writers very well, they get very angry, but they don't have the leverage. What is the leverage? Give us the money. David Zasloff makes $300 million. That's not really leverage. I think the leverage comes from the talents of writers and a broader conversation that's happening around the country right now about issues of corporate power and antitrust. Corporate Hollywood has gotten too big and too vertically integrated. And it used to be that distributors and producers, so networks and studios, were separate by

law under laws like financial syndication or FinCEN. And this curbed how big NBC could get and how powerful it could get. Oh, come on. The history of Hollywood is giant, big companies abusing actors and writers for decades. But if you look at the golden ages of Hollywood, it was between the Paramount decrees and FinCEN. It used to be that in the 70s, 80s, 90s, independent producers owned a lot of their content. And now there's been tons of consolidation starting with NBCU, Comcast, now Warner Discovery. It's just getting bigger and bigger and everybody else is getting squeezed. And the other thing that's changed is that personalities have more direct voice. Gatekeepers

are kind of done. Sure. I still don't think they have leverage. I think there's huge amounts of people watching TikTok for content. I just think this is not going to end well for writers or actors. You couldn't imagine a world in which it does? No, I cannot. I think they better make the best deal they can get at this point. And I think AI, they're going to have to push it down the road because nobody really understands what's going to happen. Even the studios don't understand, and none of us do. You keep saying this is inevitable, this is coming, but it doesn't mean that there's no choice or agency.

When cable was coming, the networks all said, oh, we'll see what happens with cable, as they kind of waved their hands. And the writers went on strike. That resulted in change. It meant that writers could participate, and others could participate increasingly in the profits that cable would provide.

But everyone waved their hands. And I think the Writers Guild has historically been ahead of the curve on issues. It might be ahead of the curve on AI. Look, there's a lot we don't know, but there's stuff we can settle. And there's an opportunity for this to be settled not just in Hollywood, but in Washington. People are calling for the Warner and Discovery deal to be re-evaluated. It's not going to happen. I know.

But obviously, the Simon & Schuster and Random House deal didn't go through, right? Well, yeah, but that was in a unique set of circumstances. Talk a little bit about that. They've screwed it up in the way they handled it, and they're going to be sold again. Simon & Schuster is going to get sold. Yeah, NBC is probably going to buy Warner. But do you think the bigness is good, or you're just saying it's inevitable? Because Jason Kyler, the former CEO of Warner Media, just saying it's inevitable because Jason Kyler, the former CEO of Warner Media, the founding CEO of Hulu, my old boss, someone you've interviewed, wrote an op-ed in the journal last year saying that at the end of this consolidation, there's going to be maybe two or three major players left besides Apple and Amazon. Yeah, you can't leave them out. That's why this is all happening.

They're not big enough to compete with Apple and Amazon, especially in sports rights. It's a whole new economic world. And then you have AI on top of it. The tech companies have endless money. not big enough to compete with Apple and Amazon, especially in sports rights. It's a whole new economic world. And then you have AI on top of it. The tech companies have endless money and have entered the picture and they've got to compete against it. As I've said many times, Disney is too small and they have their theme parks. They've got all kinds of IP. So the best way to do this is to focus on copyright and how they can think about their content going forward. But when there's a lot of content, that means prices are lower. That is just the way it is.

And right now, you don't see a huge groundswell from regular people. They're up to their eyeballs on their list on Netflix or whatever. Your view has very little room for regulation or Washington to make a difference. Because they never do. Good luck. If you're going to rely on the Biden administration, good luck. They haven't touched tech for decades. Well, the history of regulation in this country would suggest that it's when a small group of loud people have a gripe with something that something passes, collective action.

Sounds like a great story. You should write that story. I shall. I would, but I'm on strike. Thanks, Norma Rae. It's not happening. I think it'll be a sad world, by the way, where widget distributors make decisions. There's too much content. There's too many choices. What's the best thing you're watching recently? Have you seen Jury Duty?

No, but I heard it's great. See, there's lots. I have a list a mile as long as my arm to watch, including this show. And just like that, the Sex and the City reboot from HBO, which is now just a tile on the Streamer Max. Do you like the show, Karen? I've always liked the show. I like Sarah Jessica Parker is really the point.

I think she's been a real hardworking creator for a long time and an actor, probably unsung a little bit. You know, people like to dunk on Sex and the City. Do you think she's unsung? I think she is. I think she's a hard worker. She's worked all these years in this show that's kept the quality pretty good except for that second movie. And, you know, people had a hard time with the first season of this and sort of hate watch it,

I would agree. It had some issues working itself out. And the question is whether there's, the audience continues for it, right? It's a little bit of a cartoon of itself, sure. But in general, 25 years doing a similar thing is really hard to do. And they're trying to evolve it. And I think this season has evolved really nicely from the first season was bumpy. But the next one is pretty good. It's pretty good. I think one of the things that they struggle with as a show creatively is that obviously, the times have shifted. And so this show has a cast of characters added to it that are more diverse than the original four. Very much so. That said, as a writer, you're having to compete with how much people care about the established characters. The new actors are so good. It's all about rich

ladies. Let's be honest. It's just about rich ladies wearing lovely clothes and doing cool things and having sex in the city. And so I think these new characters, every one of these actors is excellent and is starting to really. No, I'm not saying that the actors are not excellent. I'm saying it's creatively very hard to add in, you know, four new characters to an ensemble that has established itself over multiple seasons and two films. And so I think the first season really struggled to find light for those characters. And I think this season has done a much better job because we get early access. So I'm actually seven episodes in.

Oh, are you? So you stuck with it. I think they're doing a great job. I think I do care about the new characters now. Several of them, not all of them. I still can't get into Che, but fine. I can't get into Che either. Yeah, but I don't hate Che as much as I hated Che last season.

But I think I'm starting to really like them. And it's an easy watch, just like Emily in Paris. So I think it's kept up pretty well, considering, you know, it's the old lady of the group, essentially. Well, I think the other thing is there used to be a time where Hollywood would have said, oh, women are too old to be watched in this way. there used to be a time where Hollywood would have said, oh, women are too old to be watched in this way. But we're looking at a group of women in maybe their 50s and 60s who are having sex, and we care. And we just talked to Martha Stewart, who's 81 and more vibrant than most 20-odd-year-old people I know. So I think that's something really phenomenal in that. And we should note that this is just one of the things that Sarah Jessica Parker does. She's

a fabled stage actor. She does entrepreneurial stuff. She has shoes, which get pretty good reviews. The wine I drank of hers was excellent. A lot of celebrities are involved in liquor stuff, and I think she's done a nice job. I was really excited about this interview because obviously to prep for it, you were wearing Sarah Jessica Parker heels, drinking Sarah Jessica Parker in vivo Sauvignon Blanc. No, I wasn't. But I do have a lot of admiration for her. And the way actually we met is she wrote me a note about Pivot and On, and she's a listener, which is interesting. But I just have a lot of admiration for her. I see her in New York all the time, by the way, with her big headphones on. She's probably listening to us. I hope so. And while

most people love her as Carrie from Sex and the City, your favorite film of hers is? L.A. Story. It's a great movie. And she is just, everybody shines in that movie, but she's particularly delightful and very sly. It's a very sly performance by her. And then the other film you like, which I've actually never seen, is Hocus Pocus. I love Hocus Pocus. Again, total pleasure. It's just fun to watch. I saw Hocus Pocus 2 immediately. And it's a trifle, but it's just fun to watch. I saw HocusPocus 2 immediately, and it's a trifle, but it's a delightful trifle. And it's become a cult favorite, actually, which is it wasn't successful when it first came out. It deserves all the cult focus

on it. Okay, let's take a quick break and we'll be back with our guest, Sarah Jessica Parker. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore. That's Ian Mitchell, a banker turned fraud fighter. These days, online scams look more like crime syndicates than individual con artists.

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Hi. Hello. How you doing? Wow, what a treat. I'm super excited to do this. I'm really super excited. Well, that's nice of you. I hope you feel that way afterwards. I'm sure I will. Let's see if we can get a good fight. We're going to talk about, just like that, we're going to talk about sex in the city.

We're going to talk about your wine, which I drank last night with my wife. She knows more about wine than I do. And all your entrepreneurial stuff. But I would be remiss to say, I love Hocus Pocus so much. Thank you. I don't know why, but I was wildly excited. It's inexplicable why people have... It's the most delightful movie. What was it like working on that? Because the first one

became a weird hit, right? It did. And it has a sort of a funny life or heartbeat because when that movie first came out, I remember in those days, you know, the head of the studio would ring you over the weekend and scream and yell in celebration or be trying to, you know, comfort you that it's, you know, a disaster. And I never understood any of those numbers and I never cared. But I remember them calling me and, you know, being so thrilled and enthusiastic about the box office. And then I guess over time it sort of became like a disappointment at the box office, which I never really entirely understood, nor was I interested in, you know, investigating further. But it just had this life.

It just kept growing and growing and growing. And it was hugely fun, that first movie. It was a very long shoot. It was, I believe it was like about a six-month shoot. People got sick. It's Salem? We shot the first one on the lot at Disney. Oh, okay.

We went, I believe we may or may not have gone to Salem to shoot some exteriors. But we shot a lot of exteriors, you know, in Burbank somewhere. Yeah, right. exteriors. But we shot a lot of exteriors, you know, in Burbank somewhere. And so it took, what, some 30 plus years for us to get back together again. Why did you do it again? I did it again because it seemed impossible to not do it again. I mean, the yes was pretty simple. I mean, I spoke to Bette first and I said, you know, how are you feeling about that? And she's like, I want to do it.

And I said, well, if you want to do it, I want to do it. And the hardest thing about it, honestly, was just scheduling. It was just like a bear to figure it all out. It did great, too. It did really well. Yeah. I know. I didn't realize that either, nor do I understand those numbers because they're streaming numbers. Yes.

But people try to explain that to me. Yeah. Yeah. You need to understand that, just FYI. And also, what you realize is understand that, just FYI. And also, what you realize is that I saw you as Annie. You did? Yes, I saw you in the original cast when Andy McArdle was in it.

And then I saw you when you took over. Oh my gosh. We're around the same age. Not many people tell me that. Yeah, it was great. It's always nice to... That was your first big thing, correct? Besides Square Pigs and everything. I had been on Broadway in 1976. That was your first big thing, correct? Besides Square Pegs and everything? one of the two siblings that is, you know, wreaking havoc. And that was in 76. And then I

came to New York. And then I did Annie. I did Square Pegs a few years after I left Annie. Yeah, I remember all those things. So the role that's defining for you, obviously, we're going to talk about this first. And I'm not going to totally focus on it, but it's important. It's the 25th anniversary of Sex and the City, which seems inconceivable. You almost backed out of the series after shooting the pilot. Why did you do that? Well, I think that I had ideas, sort of old-fashioned ideas about what television commitment meant. For the most part, most of us at that point had worked in conventional commercial television on the networks.

And there was a seven-year contract, and you were beholden to honor that. And it felt, for an actor like me, who had spent some time on series, it felt limiting, and it scared me that I wouldn't be able to do a play and then do an off-Rodrigue play in a small part in a film that was interesting, and though it provided financial stability, it felt confining, and HBO very kindly and generously allowed the conversation and said, yes, we understand, but this is different. This is a different home, and let's do the first season, and then if it doesn't feel good— Because TV wasn't particularly hip then. HBO was in the midst of—Sex and the City

sort of led the way. There was a number of series, but this was pre-Sopran and the culture was super intimate. And so I shared with my agents my concerns, and we just talked to HBO, and they said, listen, let's do the first season and see how you feel. And we don't have to answer to advertisers, and we don't have, you know, programming schedule. And I was enormously relieved by that conversation. They hired a producer that I had worked with on Miami Rhapsody that I loved. And I walked the first day to work. It happened to be two blocks from my house. I know the time and that date and that location. And I never looked back.

It's astonishing. And I never wanted to be anywhere else. So Darren Starr was the creator of Sex and the City. Yes, your friend. My friend. Sort of friend. What you sort of set up with. Yes, his grandmother.

His boobie wanted us to date when I was doing a profile of him for the Washington Post. And I was like, no boobie. It's not going to happen. Really not going to happen. There's not even slight interest in all the way. But it was cute. She was adorable and wonderful. But nonetheless, never happened, sadly, for me.

You know, I went in a different direction. And he thought the show may have ended his career because it was so sexual. Let's play a clip. And I'm curious if you felt that way, too. Here's Darren talking about it. I thought it was like, it was the farthest thing that I ever thought that was going to become a hit show. I thought it might have been like the end of my career because it was so, you know. Sexual.

It was so sexual. And maybe people would be offended by it. So how did you think about it? It's funny. I didn't think that the kind of provocation that the show might engender would be harmful. We didn't have a point of reference. I think that's the thing that I— There was nothing like it.

Euphoria didn't exist. None of this stuff existed. We couldn't say, well, that's had success, so therefore we might have this, or that's been problematic. And I think for me, you know, Darren's much more strategic than I've ever been. I never thought about success or failure. I just wanted to be part of something that was interesting to me. And I recognized early on that HBO was a home that wasn't concerned at all about what anybody else thought. And I think that's what created the kind of programming that they believed in and fought for and committed themselves

to. And so it didn't occur to me to ponder response. I just thought it was different and the voice was fresh and I'd never seen anything like it in a script or read anything like it. And I'd certainly never been asked to play a part like that. And they were sexual women with a lot of interest in sex, not just talking about it, discussing it and doing it, having it. Yes. Yes. The first episode of this season, there's a lot of sex happening in the first four minutes. Did you consider backing out of the spinoff? You obviously did the two movies. Did you consider backing out of the spinoff? You obviously did the two movies. Did you consider backing out of the spinoff and just like that?

No, it was my idea. I mean, Michael Patrick and I had the sort of birth of this new chapter was that it was the latter part of March 2020. part of March 2020. And as billions of people were in their home trying to pass the time and not have arguments with children that you were coming to know in a new and different way, we started watching television. And it's not something we actually have spent a lot of time doing. And we went through the entire canon of Mary Tyler Moore, and then we moved on to Bob Newhart. And I recognize, as we all did, how much we missed our friends and how much we missed our work friends and leaving our home and having separate lives. And so I called Michael Patrick one day and I said, you know, I have,

I'm just wondering, you know, we've never shared about our specific experiences producing Sex in the City and what that meant and how we did it and what it took and the time it asked and the effort involved. And maybe we should do a podcast, you're there and I'm here. And I feel like people are reaching for their old friends. And from that grew the idea of In Just Like That and called my agent, we sort of share an agent, And I called my agent. We sort of share an agent, my agent of 40 years, Kevin Uvain. And we offered this idea up.

And then we just rang HBO and started talking with Casey. And so I couldn't back out of it because it was something that I had brought. You had brought to them. Yes. They had brought to them. What did you think you thought the legacy of the first Sex and the City was at the time? Because this one changed quite a bit. And you got some critiques of the original show. the City was at the time? Because this one changed quite a bit. And you got some critiques of the original show.

Always. Always, yes. Always. What was the legacy from your perspective? And what critiques did you take to heart? I mean, I've tried to not really read about any of it. I've tried to not, I mean, it's not been a big, it's not been difficult. I don't tend to engage in any peripheral conversation if it's, you know, from an informed critic or from just social media.

I don't think it's not productive for me personally. I mean, but you certainly glean that people have strong feelings. And I don't consider the legacy unless I'm asked to. best answer I can give is that it created a culture of friendship and it paid attention to women and their most intimate, important, silly, absurd, interesting, worth exploring ideas. And that was simply new for television. And it was because we were at HBO where we could speak candidly and talk about things intimately. And I think the legacy, as I understand it, is just that it was a new way of featuring women on television, large or screens, large or small, and that those stories connected and that there was an audience for those kinds of female-driven stories. And we saw, I think, lots of evidence post our show.

Yes, sure. There's been a lot of copies of it, different kinds of copies. What did you try to change in Just Like That? Because one of the critiques of the show was that it wasn't diverse enough. Very white, right? Yes. And then you went the other way. And then they critiqued you for performing wokeness, I guess, which is always the attack.

I think we always recognized, you know, the show was born from a series of columns by Candice Bushnell. And then Darren bought the book and adapted it. And it was about, you know, inarguably a very specific group of women in a very specific time on an island called Manhattan. We have to kind of remember money and politics and economy. And I think it shut out a lot of equally interesting stories. When Michael and I started talking about doing this new chapter, it wasn't a mandate from the studio. It wasn't a conversation we had with anybody but ourselves, which is it's time to broaden the characters and representation and story. And we knew without question that it would just simply make the show richer. And it's proven to be true. And it's not surprising that people thought it was performative.

But it was simply what we wanted to do, mostly because we also knew who we wanted to play those roles and what they could be. And I think the second season has really been sort of the— There's something more substantive, yeah. But it's very similar to the growth of Samantha, Charlotte, and Miranda, season one to two, on the original show. You know, it takes time for those relationships. You can't just thrust, you know, things onto people. Things have to develop and friendships develop and integration of friendships develop.

And so it's been thrilling to have those new people, new voices, new ideas, new stories, new perspectives on the show. And nevermind for story purposes, which is the most important of all, but in terms of just the people that we get to be on camera with. Right. Can you make a show these days that was like Sex and the City for white ladies sitting around talking essentially? I mean, you could if you're looking at it as a study, I imagine. But you couldn't call it

contemporary, you know. But it's not to suggest that there isn't isolation. And we all know it. And if you walk into a restaurant in New York, you can recognize when it's not diverse. And that exists still. And we all live in these little provinces. But I think you can't tell stories of women and not include all sorts of women. Right. I recently did an interview with Cynthia Nixon up in Provincetown, actually, and she's the character of Miranda, for those who don't follow. She's now gay, correct? Is it gay?

Cynthia or Miranda? No, I know Cynthia, but the character. Miranda, yes. I think that is, you've posed a question that some are asking. I would say she is in season two identifying as gay, but I don't, I think that is a conversation that's happening over the course of the season. When did you decide to do that? I'm curious. I didn't ask her. What was the? That was our initial conversations about coming back and what stories would be interesting. And, you know, the truth of the trajectory of Miranda, I think people were really upset about that marriage falling apart because, you know, we all love Steve and we all love the actor who played Steve. But it's good to be reminded that Miranda was, you know, really pulled to that altar. She resisted all the conventions. to that altar. She resisted all the conventions. And so the idea of her exploring this first chance she feels she's had in her life to really try to discover who she is, it's not surprising.

It happens to a lot of people. Yeah. And she, of course, tried it early on. Remember that one, she had that one fake date in order to get, she pretended she was gay. Oh, I forgot that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She did a good job, I would have to say. And I was like, oh, she's definitely gay in real life. You've sort of shed the manics really centered around all the women. On the new show? On the new show. It's really woman heavy, which is fine by me.

But it's back to its roots of Carrie dating and lots of clothes. You had the Met Gal in episode one. There's men there, but not as anything. Yes, the men have always, I mean, the men have grown in importance and profundity to some degree or another. But the focus was always on the women leading you into those stories. And if there were men included, it's because it was about the woman first. Speaking of characters in the show, tell me about some of the people that are coming back.

Obviously, there was the massive controversy. I'll be honest with you. The Aiden, for one, is coming back. We'll talk about that first. And then the return of Kim Cattrall's character, Samantha. I was a little put off by that because it was women catfighting. They sort of portrayed it like that. I don't know if you thought that, but I thought it was a little much.

And I know people don't get along at work. It's fine. It's no problem. But talk to me about both those things. I guess the conversation, you know, we really wanted, we, you know, had this thought and idea about having Samantha be on screen. She's very present in this second season as well via text because she is, you know, living in London. And there was this really nice opportune moment to include a face with the text in, you know, real life at this very consequential moment in Carrie's life in the show. And it's

just a tiny moment. It's a phone call. And it was kind of devastating to have it be leaked. But I will say it's sort of dispiriting to keep having the conversation about this only because it just doesn't reflect how I feel about her and the contributions she made and the way she lived Samantha. Yeah, she's a massively important character. Absolutely. And also, I fear I will never offer up the response people are wanting, which is just catnip and fuel, because it's just, you know, it eclipses this extraordinary experience that has been hugely joyful

experience that has been hugely joyful and that is very harmonious. So it's, you know, this idea of a cat fight. I've never said anything bad about Kim Norwood. It's never mind beneath me and Kim, but it's also, it perpetuates this age-old crazy delight in the idea of two women not getting along. And I just don't, I've never wanted to participate in it. I've never spoken that way about colleagues, and I wouldn't. And when it was leaked, I was like, oh, God, here we go. It's going to turn into this conversation versus this wonderful little surprise. Actually, people are thrilled. You know, no, I'm thrilled about that.

And we expected as much. But it's just it does resurface sort of tabloid fodder, which is I never find very dignified. No, it's not. So talk about Aiden bringing him back. dignified. No, it's not. So talk about Aiden bringing him back. When Michael and I typically, historically, we meet before a season starts, and he talked about the idea of Aiden coming back and how and why. And in typical fashion for me, I just have enormous trust in his instincts. I think he's a crazy skilled writer and always knows, no matter what the response is, how and where and why we make a choice. And it was

really nice to be back with him. And I like very much the story we get to tell, and I think the time having passed, such a significant amount of time, really allows for the relationship to be both familiar and new. You popped up in one of the movies, of course. Yes, he did. Yes, that's right. That's right. See, I'm a fan. I'm an actual fan. Oh, my God.

Thank you. Sue, are you pleased with that character returning? Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Thank you. So are you pleased with that character returning? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm pleased with everybody returning in the ways in which they do. Yeah.

But the post-it note guy is not coming back, right? No, he is not. No, Burger is not coming back. Burger is not coming back. Good. No. I never like Burger. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Constant Contact.

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but also fashion. Mm-hmm. A lot of fashion going on right now. How does it play a character now? Because it seems like there's more in this season than ever. I think it feels like it's playing a larger role because there are so many more people exhibiting it. You know, we have Nicole Ari Parker and we have Karen Pittman and we have Sarita. It's amazing.

And it always played a critical role. But the clothes have always helped Michael Patrick, initially Darren and now Michael Patrick, tell the story. And especially Carrie, who has such a fevered relationship with fashion, particularly with shoes, but also a genuine interest and curiosity and admittedly willful devotion to it, sometimes despite her own best interests. devotion to it, sometimes despite her own best interests. But it's a way that she expresses herself. And it's a kind of love that is often inexplicable, but has been a hugely important way to illustrate each of her feelings. And yes, and all of them. And so it feels more present, And all of them. And so it feels more present, I think, now because we just have more women displaying fashion. So the fashion has helped when you launch your shoe line, which is SJP. Just so you know, my wife likes the Minnie and my daughter likes the Lucille. Oh, I like both of those quite a bit.

A little too high for a three-year-old, but nonetheless. How did you get into this? Because a lot of actors are, Reese Witherspoon, I'm thinking Jessica Alba, gotten into other things, right? How do you look at this? And obviously shoes, because it links with you as your character, Carrie, but it might link with you yourself. Well, over the course of the, I would say the latter part of the last season of the show, opportunities presented themselves, which, you know, would not have previous.

The first was Fragrance, which I launched, I don't know, 15 years ago. And that was an experience that was very fulfilling and successful and creative. And I got to work with people who were extremely good at what they did. And then when the show ended, there were opportunities to work in the shoe category. I didn't feel that I knew enough. And the more I engaged in those conversations, the more it became clear to me that what everybody mostly wanted was for me to produce masks. And I didn't feel that would be honorable. Right, a line at like Target or something. Yeah, I mean, I think there is a place for that and it's necessary. And this was a long time ago.

But I felt that if, in in fact I wanted to be able to talk about this brand with enthusiasm and knowledge and wear the shoes that I had to offer something that had connective tissue to what they associated with me and so I passed up all the opportunities to work in the shoe category in ways that were mass. So producing shoes in China, a lot of money, big sales, fast fashion, particular to shoes. I just didn't feel in principle that I could do it, which was confounding to a lot of people because there was a lot of money offered. But for me, I felt the way that I wanted to do it was different, was really a connection to the kind of shoes I had been wearing on the show. And that's a hard thing to do because when you're talking about producing handmade shoes in Italy, which is, I think, and arguably still the greatest place to produce shoes.

It's expensive. And the price points are very high and the materials are costly and the margins are tough. A friend of mine said, why are you not doing this? And I said, really, the only person I want to produce shoes with is George Malcomus, who had been the CEO and had been the president of Manolo. He brought Manolo here 100 years ago and I knew him. So I just summoned the courage and I called him up and I said, would you ever consider doing a shoe collection with me, a shoe brand? And he said, be at my office tomorrow morning. And it turned out he arrived in New York the same day that I did, January of 1977. We had all the same points of reference and he had all these relationships

with factories in Tuscany and said, no, we can do this differently. And it'll be complicated and we'll have to be strategic, but there is a way to launch a shoe brand handmade from Italy and be at a third of the price point. That's a Manolo. That is typically. Right. Correct. Or many other luxury brands that are made in Italy.

Right. And thus it was born and that's the brand today. Just so you know, my producer wants to know, you're not a third of the price. Manolo Blahnik, classic pumps are about $6.95, and your shoes are around $400, basic pumps. Right. And what we pay our factories is different as well. So we are creating smaller amounts.

And when you're creating smaller amounts, those margins change. Change, right. Absolutely. So you have gone into wines. It's called In Vivo. Again, my wife says it's quite good. She was surprised. It is quite good. Your wife isn't alone. No, I know. Why wine? Why wine?

It's a very legitimate question. Yeah. Because you could have done tequila like everybody else. Well, that would be a reason to not do it. A few years ago, I got a call from my agent saying that these two gentlemen from New Zealand had called and asked about doing a partnership, a collaboration in the wine category. I thought that was silly. And I was completely ill-equipped. They encouraged me to get on the phone with them. And so I said, listen, I just know nothing. And unless you're willing to really teach me and take the time and allow me to learn.

And I only get involved if I'm 100% involved, but that means I have to be informed. And they said yes. And they initially, of course, wanted to do a Sauvignon Blanc because their vineyards are in the Marlborough region, which makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense. And we worked and blended and worked and blended and then produced and offered this wine that was really well received. And we just keep growing. I think we've had, I think our lowest mark is 91 or 92. Yeah, you're doing very well. We just got our highest score.

When you talk about margins in wine versus shoes, it's an interesting thing of you moving into this. At what point in your acting career did you realize, wait, I can do business? Do you compare yourself to anyone like a Reese Witherspoon? Because you do have a production company, too. I do. Well, first of all, Darren initially said when I first sat down with him to talk about Sex and the City, he said, you'll produce the show. And I was like, Darren, I've never produced before. I don't know anything about producing. He said, you've been on a set your whole life.

That's right. Yeah. So just learn then. If you don't want to call yourself a producer the first year, let's call you a consultant and just be in every meeting and listen and learn, which is what I did. And I think once I started taking more responsibility and really listening to everything from union negotiations to our budgets to why we couldn't afford rain to getting an actor to, and I really understood money. I was surprised that it wasn't the math that I had spent time agonizing over in school. It was an entirely

different math. And the math is humans. And the minute you put people into the conversation, so whether it's minimums in Italy for a leather or a velvet or a satin, it's people. So you have to think, okay, so a person is making this and it's asking this of them and it's asking for more of this person. And all of a sudden when there were people involved, I was like, well, I'm good at math. I can do math. And when I don't know, I'm going to just ask somebody who does know and I'm going to shut up and not contribute until I know what you're talking about. Yeah. And it's just been incredible to find a career. I mean, you know, you're always doing something new and you're always asking yourself, what don't I know and what's interesting. And it's surprising to have created another career.

Right. Is that a big part of your business now? Is the wine on the shoes bigger than? It's not bigger than my acting work in terms of, in many ways, it's not bigger, but I'm as involved. Right. Do you think about that, the power you have? Because I own all my IP or much of my IP. Do you think about that, the power you have? Because I own all my IP or much of my IP. Do you think about all these things you've created? You created a production company in 2005, a year after Sex and the City ended its original run. Alison Benson is your co-founder.

You two produced Divorce. Produced this show. Yeah, and you also have a book imprint, SJP Lit. Do you think of yourself as an entrepreneur more than an actor? Do you think that's necessary? Because I think a lot of actors don't have any power whatsoever. They just are sort of set pieces that people move around. Accustomed to not having authority, maybe less than power. It's the authority or to be part of the conversation. And I think what happens is, well, for me at least,

is that, and I'm still a hired handoff and I'll, you know, I wasn't a producer on Hocus Pocus. I wasn't a producer on a bunch of movies I've done in the recent past. But once you are included in the conversation and you like it and it's interesting and challenging, it's very hard to remove yourself. And the reason that I insist on being involved in everything I do, and first of all, I own the shoe company outright. It's mine 100%. It was 51% mine before my partner passed. It is just the way I like to work. I don't feel I'm any good to a customer or anybody else if I can't answer to all of it. That's why I work in the store all the time. It's why I do PAs all the time.

It's why I'm in constant conversation with the fellows at Envivo. It's why we grow together. Because I just feel it's a more principled way of, frankly, asking for people's hard-earned dollars. So for me, I like the responsibility to and for the product and the experience. I don't know if that makes sense. No, that makes sense. So when you think about that in Hollywood right now, we're nearing the end of the expiration of the SAG agreement. As we're taking this, SAG-AFTRA has already authorized a strike by a wide margin.

By a wide margin, I think 98, 99%. 9%. The WGA won on strike because it couldn't reach a deal. The DGA has an agreement in place because, you know, the directors. That's what all that my actor friends, my writer and actor friends are like, yeah, the directors. I think it was, I think a lot of us thought that they wouldn't strike. Yeah, yeah, most people did. What do you think one's going to happen with SAG? And then I want to talk about the larger changes in show business. I think they're going to strike. And I think it's not surprising. And I think that all these new platforms have forced a conversation.

And I think that it's very hard to argue against sharing a piece of the extraordinary pie that exists. And certainly for writers, because we have no place to show up if we don't have a script. And for actors, you know, I remember when I first started working for HBO, and there wasn't a blueprint or a business model that could talk about residuals. So HBO could show something, say, 25 times before they paid you X amount of dollars. Well, guess how many times? You know. Yeah, right. You're constantly adapting.

And technology is, you know, far better than I do. It stays ahead of the worker in a lot of ways. And unions are a large group. unions are a large group and it just seems impossible not to have a real genuine conversation about the ways in which people share in those profits and i don't know i don't know how to settle that i can't i don't know what those numbers are because they seem so vast um and big and the difference the gulf that seems to exist right now is quite significant. But I find it impossible to not have the conversation in good faith. Do you think writers, especially writers and actors, have not gotten a big enough?

Because the economics are changing rather quickly. And I think they didn't realize it. It's just streaming? Yeah, it's just streaming or it's whatever. And one of the things that I've always noticed is that the writers and actors particularly have been captive of the situation, just pegs, really just pegs, and everybody else has benefited off of their talent to an astonishing degree. for many to make a living, but there is a singular approach to the playwright that doesn't exist. I would say in television, you know, the writer is quite powerful, quite powerful, and the showrunner. And, but that as streaming has imposed itself happily in our lives in a lot of ways, the economics are not, they don't add up for a

lot of writers. And I think also we haven't adapted simultaneously to these short, these small orders of shows, you know, an order for season is 8, 10. And it used to be 22, 24, 28. And that's just a huge different economics. And then streaming. So let's speak about a few key trends, do a kind of lightning round kind of thing. How do you look at streaming now? Because most people watch you on streaming now, right? Yeah, it's hard for me to— Do you want to say anything about Max?

You may. I've really worked hard this week to not say at HBO, we at HBO, you know. Yeah, you can keep doing that. I do that with Facebook. They want to call me Meta, and I'm like, we at HBO, you know. Yeah. You can keep doing that. It's so hard. I do that with Facebook. They want to call me Meta, and I'm like, I shall not call you that. Your Facebook. I shall not call you that.

I shall not. I shall not. Your stupid new name that you got out of that business already. It's been a hard adjustment. Yeah. How do I think about streaming? I still wanted us to drop on Sunday nights at 9 o'clock. And I love a standing date. I love waiting for a standing date.

I love reading a book before I read the last page. I don't read the last page of a book first. I like to have an experience and then share it and talk about it and ponder it and dream about it. It's a whole new world for me. The idea of, as an audience, watching six, seven, eight episodes in a row, it astounds me that their time exists, but also that you take away that drawn out, kind of perfect. It worked with Succession to draw it out. I love it.

You love it. But that is not the nature of a lot of consumers now. Yeah. Even for my children. I don't know how your children are. My kids watch it on Reddit or later in pieces. And they call up their entertainment. They curate their entertainment.

And it wouldn't occur to them to wait every Wednesday night for Archie Bunker. Right, right, yeah. It's like, wait, what? Right, yeah. Must see TV. Yeah, it's just a different way. So I've had to adapt and, you know, allow these changes to exist. But I was the same way.

You know, I didn't have an iPhone forever because I just was stuck on my BlackBerry forever. I mean, it took me forever because change is hard. You know, I made calls on a hard line in our house forever. I struggle with that. I struggle with that. I struggle with change in general. What about the disruption of gatekeepers with social media? I know you're not an expert on it, but you have to be aware as an entertainer. One of the things I was talking about my writer friends with was, you know, you've got 150 million people on TikTok making really good content.

And if 1% of them do well, you guys are screwed. Like, you know what I mean? Like, this is where kids are watching, whether it's on Reddit or YouTube or whatever. As a creator of content, do you think about that a lot? Or just you're like, I'm too old for TikTok? Not, not, I don't think about it yet. I mean, I'm, I'm cognizant of it. And it's the larger role it's playing. And I think there is going to come a time very soon where you start including that in your conversations about development. I don't know. But I'm not resistant to it. I just don't entirely understand it as a scripted reality for people in development like me.

Because it's different. Because you make a show. Yeah. And I like still cinema and film and dollies and, you know, big old lights. Because I still love cinema. I still love cinema. Nobody else does. Except Jessica Parker.

No, there's people. There are people. Chris Nolan likes it. Yeah. Parker. No, there's people. There are people. Chris Nolan likes it. Yeah, and I appreciate his devotion and his kind of the way he gatekeeps it. Yeah, yeah. I got in a fight with all of them when I said, you know, theaters are over. You do know that. Really? No, they're not. Movie theaters. Movie theaters. But you know what's curious? Once again, I don't know. Your children, you have much younger and slightly older. My daughters go to the movies all the time now.

Really? They're very retro. Interestingly, my daughter asked me the other day if she could go see the new Spider-Man movie. Multiverse. By herself. Wow. She said, I've organized it all. I found a crowded row with one seat left in the middle.

So nobody is going to talk to me. They won't be talking over each other because they would have already taken that seat. And then that started this conversation about eating alone. I said, I love going to the movies alone. I like eating alone. And my other daughter, her twin said, I can think of nothing better than a meal by myself with a book. But they go to the movies, I'm going to say once a week, which is incredible. We're all New York kids. Come on. Yeah, but I think to the movies, I'm going to say once a week, which is incredible.

Well, they're New York kids. Come on. Yeah, but I think that it's not over maybe. Right. Maybe we have written the obituary, maybe perhaps prematurely. I'm not sure. So last one, one of the things, I just recently interviewed Brooke Shields. She did a documentary, I don't know if you've seen it. I have, yeah.

About Pretty Baby. And I know you auditioned for that role. Is that correct? I think it was between me and Brooke. Yeah, at age 11. And got many callbacks. Yeah, it was I read with Louis Mal. And it was, I think, really sincerely down to me and Brooke. Makes perfect sense why they hired Brooke. What do you think, you know, I have a young daughter, you have daughters, of sexualization of women on television. Do you think about that when you're talking to young actors? Obviously, a lot of these shows have taken up a notch.

Idol is on right now. All I'm seeing is controversy about that. Euphoria. Everyone's like, watch Euphoria. I'm like, no, I cannot. I don't want to know about any of that stuff. But how has that changed? We moved from Me Too to continued sexualization in a lot of ways,

but maybe not. Maybe it's, they're in control of their own sexuality. Yeah, I think it depends very much on the actors and the conversations that didn't used to happen to my knowledge are happening. And in the old days, I'm going to say that you were told what you were going to do. And if you express concerned or resistance or objected, you simply wouldn't get the part. And one of the only things that Darren and I talked about when we met at EAT on the Eppery side to talk about doing a show called Sex and City, I said that I'm not comfortable with nudity. I've never done it and didn't want to start then and certainly don't want to start now. But I thought that that might be a deal breaker for him because the show was so much about the candid conversations in word but also in action. And he said, fine. Other people are comfortable with it and we'll ask them and if they are, they'll do it and if they're not, they won't

and you certainly won't. And I couldn't believe that I was allowed to say that and that somebody wouldn't be completely put off, never mind a man, whether he's gay or not. And so my guess is that the kind of sexualizing that you're discussing or the nature of it, my guess, my hope is that those actors are doing it because they feel it's important to the story, integral to the story. They feel comfortable doing it. They don't feel that they're being exploited or objectified, but rather helping tell a story that they feel good about and that they want to tell right and i would i can't imagine today trying to get anybody to do any of that against

their will it just seems inconceivable to me. But that doesn't mean that a young woman wouldn't still feel the same pressure to make somebody who is her authority happier. Right, right. Or get the job. Or get the job. And I think just simply continuing to say it loudly and talk about it is our best hope for just change, that it's just not the way to. That documentary is quite profound when you go back and look at it, especially all the interviews she gives. It's incredible.

It is. It's incredible. And Brooke and I were friends in that period. I was doing Annie, and she would come by and pick me up, and we'd go to a restaurant with her mom, and we hung out. But being around her and witnessing the sort of temperature that existed around her was really something to see. When I watched that documentary, I was shocked and really reminded of the presence she had. I mean, she was huge.

And I remember the Calvin Klein commercials. I remember all the controversy around her. I lined up to see Blue Lagoon. I saw all those movies she made. But she was massive. And yes, everybody really did project onto her everything. Yeah. But when you see it today, those questions. It's stunning to watch. And her face. Because she compartmentalized it. It was really interesting to see the difference. So two last questions. One is, Sex and City was formed at a time when it was perceived that women needed a man, or that was the pursuit of men. Yes. Tell me, does the new series reflect something different as the pressure has changed to more female

empowerment? There was always female empowerment in the series. But it was about men, too, about pursuing marriages, whether it was Charlotte or you. I think it was, you know, as Plepler used to always say. This is Richard Plepler. Yes. We love Richard Plepler. Love him. He used to always say that the show was about home and finding home.

And love is part of home and contentment. And yes, the show, if you just looked at Carrie, was about this pursuit of love. But what it sort of finally ended up saying was that it's the most important relationship you have is the one you have with yourself. And I think this is more so doubling down on this new show and just like that. How many seasons do you expect to do given everything's changed? I don't know. I think we're having conversations about what we're going to do next and when and how. And I think really more so it's what, as always is the case, what does Michael see, hear, and feel?

And if he feels— This is Michael Patrick King. Michael Patrick King, yes. He's my collaborator and producing partner and our showrunner and um we've always talked and we've always been aligned about when to walk away and when to keep pursuing which is hard so then what do you want to do after that then is there something you have wanted to do um well after this my husband and i are going to l to do Plaza Suite in the West End. And we'll do that.

Yep, we'll do that for about 12 weeks. And then I have stuff to do. Yeah. I mean, I have the shoe business and I have the literary imprint and the wine and all those other things. But I also, I'm not allowed to say yet. Oh, wait, you have something. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I just, I'm not sure what I'll do after Plaza Suite. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet. I'll know soon. Okay. All right. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I'm so thrilled.

I'm so long in coming. I'm so glad you texted me. I'm so excited. Yeah. And I'm so happy for you and all you're doing and happy for your listeners. Yes. Because I'm one of them. All right. Thank you so much. Carrie, you really threw me under the bus with that shoe price fact check. Oh, well, you know, you got a little obsessed with shoes. What the heck? I'm not going to, like, drill her on shoes.

Here for the hard facts. They're less. They are less. They are less by about 30%. Okay, I don't care. I do not care. It's a business podcast. We nailed Sarah Jessica Parker

on the shoes. Thank you, America. You're welcome. They're nice shoes. They are actually nice shoes. It was interesting when she spoke about the SAG deal. Mm-hmm.

Because? She thought they were going on strike. She said they are going on strike. It's really interesting because a lot of these people are caught. If you're a producer, you might be compelled to work. And so it's a really, it's a, obviously the actors won't work. So it doesn't really matter. She can't act herself.

And, you know, a lot of these writers are cooperating who are showrunners in the writer's strike. And so she'll have to also go on strike. But it was really interesting to hear her reflect on the show. What did you take away from that? You know, I think one of the things that I liked interviewing her is you forget how, even though she's the character, she's the main character and has kept the center of that show, she's really thoughtful, I thought, about the impact. She's not unaware of the man-hungry-woman thing, although I don't think that's quite what that show was.

I think she's tried to respond correctly and still keep to the spirit of the show, which is what it was. And I don't think she believes they're being performative about it. And I would agree that characters, the different more diverse characters, they're getting a lot more depth in this season. As much as Sex and the City people can be depth, but actually there is a lot of poignancy to these characters over time. So I do think over time you do begin to like them and feel some, you know, affiliation with them. Yeah, I think that you always like the characters. I think that it was hard in the first season because you're competing with these 20-year relationships between some of these friends. And then you're bringing in a new cast of characters. And I think she said it completely right, which is basically she was saying if you want to keep up with the culture, you've got to adapt your show. You've got to adapt. Yeah, and I think she's right.

And I think one of the things, you know, it's easy to sort of hammer on shows like Sex and the City or Girls or something like that, but I don't think you'd have the sex lives of college girls without Sex and the City, right? I think they all, they're a little, they're not an homage to it, but they certainly were clear, it's clear Mindy Kaling was somehow informed by it in some fashion. And I think everybody was. And you forget at the time it was created, it was unique. And it's not even the accretive value of these shows, though I agree that happens too. But I think it's what Sarah Jessica was saying, this idea that these are the conversations that women are having. And they are also conversations about career.

But I do think they were reflecting, absolutely reflecting a world that existed at the time and then how does that world evolve? It's confusing for a lot of people. So it's very, you know, I think people can't

put themselves back in that era and how groundbreaking that show was. It was huge. It was important to HBO. I grew up on that show.

Important to HBO as a brand. They broke out of their mold with Sex and the City and then Sopranos followed and all the other shows, all the many shows,

whether it's Game of Thrones or Succession. They all followed in the wake of this idea of appointment TV on a subscription network, which was different. And they were filmic.

They seem like cinema. She loves cinema. They seem like cinema. They all love cinema. Love cinema. I thought when she was saying that she kind of condensed the show to say

the most important relationship is with yourself, I thought she was going to end it as with your friends. Because that is what the show feels like. Or what your friends think of you. I think that's always been the message. Or with your friends, like the safety and the security that you have with your friends. The ironic thing is that they were dating for all those seasons of Sex and the City, the first show. No, it's about them. It's about the group of them.

They had the security and the trust in each other. And it's also the difficulties. They did portray a lot of difficulties in the relationships. They'd often break up on the show. The friends would have—and they lasted a while, and it made it super uncomfortable. And then in real life, the Kim Cattrall thing was disturbing on lots of people. It seemed that it affected her still to this time. Well, she's trying really hard to be very nice about it.

Yeah, you just stay out of it. I'm glad she's on it. Like, it's true. Women, like catfighting women is a trope that people love to go on and on about. Yeah, especially ironic when, like, these women are building big businesses, have big brands.

They're just disagreeing. It's fine for women to disagree. My favorite thing is you talking about the business of fashion. Yeah. Gotta do more of these. Oh, God. No, thank you. It's a great thing. It is interesting. Actors have got to spread out and not just be celebrity spokespeople. I'm sure she could make a fortune doing liquor ads and wine ads in Japan. I'm sure she's been offered a zillion of those. I bet they all have. I suspect

she wants to do something more quality. She talked about not wanting to cheapen it. That's probably a smart move on her part. A lot of actors are like that now. I think Ritherspoon's doing a great job of that, putting out really high quality stuff. Well, I'd be very excited to see what she does next. And speaking of what we're going to do next, do you mind to read us the credits, Cara? Yes. Today's show was produced by Naeem Arraza, Blake Nishik, Christian Castro-Rossell, and Megan Burney.

Special thanks to Hayaley Milliken. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan. Our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get a phone call from Kim Cattrall. If not, you're condemned

to a date at the cinema with a guy who breaks up with you on a Post-it note. You need to follow the show to understand that joke. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher

from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more. By the way, I'm very impressed with your Sex and the City knowledge of Burger. I watched it. I love Sex and the City. I'm an actual fan. I'm an actual fan.

We should go to the in real life experience of it. No, I think that's not that kind of fan. I didn't go to Magnolia Bakery to get cupcakes. I don't need to do that. It's fair. Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere? And you're making content that no one sees sees and it takes forever to build a campaign? Well, that's why we built HubSpot.

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