On with Kara Swisher - Sen. Amy Klobuchar on Regulating Tech, Antitrust, Trump’s Picks & More

Episode Date: January 9, 2025

Senator Amy Klobuchar has been legislating on Capitol Hill for 18 years. She recently won reelection and is now the number three Democrat in the Senate. And even though Big Tech has blocked her attempts at reform, at every turn, she is determined to keep pushing forward bills on everything from antitrust to privacy, competition, kids' safety and revenge porn.  Kara and Klobuchar talk about Trump’s nominations, January 6th and the upcoming inauguration (Klocuchar was one of four members of Congress who counted the electoral votes and she’s the chair of the Committee on Inaugural Ceremonies), her attempts to work across the aisle, and of course, tech and antitrust legislation. Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on Instagram and TikTok @onwithkaraswisher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Now you're still off the record, so you just have to say, now I'm on the record. Oh, now I'm on the record. Cause we're classy folks that way. Hi everyone from New York magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar. Senator Klobuchar was re-elected in November for her fourth term in office, so she's been on the Hill for 18 years and is currently the third highest ranking Democratic Senator.

Throughout the years, I've interviewed her a number of times because she's been a leading voice on tech regulation and antitrust legislation, even if she hasn't always been successful. In fact, I always give her a hard time over it. She says she's going to pass something. I said she's not. They don't pass it. And she says she's going to do it again. But she likes to say she plays the long game with these things.

It is a very long game, Amy. You and I both know that. I really enjoy our back and forths, and I do think most of her legislation is critically important, and I do wish her success in the future, even if I think the tech people will continue to stymie her. When I spoke with her last for pivot back in August, it was during the Democratic National Convention. She was very hopeful and positive about the election. This week, she was one of the team to certify the electoral college votes, which will put

President-elect Trump back in office in less than two weeks. So I'm interested to talk to her about what a Republican trifecta, plus a Trump-heavy Supreme Court, mean for her and the Democratic Party, at least in the next two years. I want to get her take on the Trump nominations in the FCC, FTC, and the Justice Department, all areas she deals with directly as a member of the Senate Commerce and Judiciary Committees. And I want to hear what she thinks about big tech influence, obviously, in Washington, which has gotten stronger than ever, and how it could continue to hurt her efforts. Amy, I'm still hoping for you, but we'll see.

Our expert question today comes from former Assistant Attorney General Jonathan Cantor. Stick around. Conversations with Mike Gitlin brought to you by Capital Group offers invaluable knowledge from some of the most experienced investment managers. It's where investment experts, curious investors, and market leaders can go to get their next great idea and see what makes investment professionals tick on and off the clock. With in-depth knowledge and actionable insights revealed in each 30-minute episode, you'll want to invest your time today. Subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts. Capital Client Group, Inc. Support for the show comes from NerdWallet.

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talk to you for a while. But I know it's been a busy couple of weeks for you. Last week, you were sworn in for your fourth Senate term. Congratulations on that. Thank you. Any resolutions for the next six years? What's your job? Well, we took an oath that gave me my resolution, and that oath is to support and defend the

Constitution of the United States. And I think we're going to need to consult that oath and that constitution many times over the next few years. And I think it's not going to be an easy day-to-day world, certainly not for the people of America, but for someone like me, who actually works across the aisle and will continue to do that, I believe you've got to stand your ground and find common ground. So I kind of feel like every day you'll be figuring out where is the red line. You know, is this a battle we can win? Is this a battle worth making even if we can't win?

But also is there an opportunity to find common ground and figuring out where that red line is, you know, people can say it's easy. Oh, I know exactly what I'm going to do every day. It's just going to depend on what they do and how far they go. Clearly for me, you know, a bunch of tax cuts for the wealthy and making it hard for regular people, that's a red line for me. I'm not going to support that. Um, whether it is, uh, things on consolidation, I want to be very strong on that.

As you know, there's a few voices and I'm one of them that speak out when it comes to that. I think there'll be issues of making sure that we have nominees that are qualified if they know what they're doing, if they believe in the mission of the work of that agency. Um, and if they have integrity with the FBI check and the like, you know, I'll support them even if they weren't my first choice, I think I supported half of the nominees in the first Trump cabinet right at the beginning, then it got a little weirder, uh, with some of the people they were putting up. But, um, clearly there's concerns with that right now. So we have our work cut out for us, but for me, the North Star is just, you know,

does this help people and improving people's lives? And if it greatly hurts people, I'm gonna call them out on it and hold them accountable. So that line seems to be moving rather quickly in a direction that's somewhat retrograde to a lot of people, but we'll get to that in a second. But last time we spoke in a quick 10 minute speed date on pivot during the democratic national convention you were optimistic about vice president kamala harris's chances but this past monday january 6th as outgoing chair of the senate

rules committee you led a processional center as the house chamber and helped count the electoral college votes putting president like donald trump back in office talk about what that was like for you. You know, I had a job and that job was the peaceful transfer of power. And again, for Kamala Harris, I thought she was incredibly dignified, stood there so strong. I can't imagine what it was like for her to read those states and those numbers, but she did it and she did it with integrity. That being said, it was a tough election from my perspective. I won my election. I won by 16 points. I got to all 87 counties. I think I beat the ticket, the national ticket by 11 points.

And a lot of that was because of getting out to rural areas, but that's not enough. A number of my friends that for me were just moral compasses lost from Sherrod Brown to John Tester to Bob Casey and we're going to miss them. So when I look back at the election, I see it as a change election. That's how people saw it. It was an economic election. Yes, people wanted their rights protected and in 2022 that came out strong in the likes of protecting democracy and abortion. That's still there, believe me. But I think a lot of them, when you look back at this election, they said, well,

you know, I don't know that Donald Trump is really going to get rid of all abortions, and I'm really worried about pharmaceutical prices, even though President Biden had actually the first president get something done on that front, or there isn't affordable housing in my area. It was an economic election. But I think it would be a mistake to rule out the fact that people still care about our democracy, they still care about their rights. It's just that it is on us in the next few years to make the case that we can do things that would improve people's lives because that certainly didn't get through that didn't get through So obviously it went off without a hitch this time as opposed to four years ago when Trump supporters raided the Capitol to try to

Stop president Biden's certification. You played a critical role in improving security for the process I'm guessing there were no mega threats But we've seen a spate of attacks recently the Tesla truck explosion outside the Trump Hotel in Las Vegas For example the attack in New Orleans. What were the concerns or warnings this time? What kind of measures are now in place to prevent or at least minimize the risk of such a repeat? Major changes on that front. First of all, I will never forget that day, 75% of the officers didn't have access to

riot gear. In many cases, the insurrectionists had better gear than the officers. The haunting words of one officer on the phone where he said on the police radio, does anyone have a plan? Does anyone have a plan? It took four hours to just call in the National Guard. Four hours. So what did we do? Fired the police chief and a lot of the other people that were in charge that day. So there was much stronger leadership and more accountability. We've had the same new police chief since that year. Secondly, we have in place a number of measures that were changed. 103 recommendations from the inspector general to the new Capitol Police Chief. All of them have been implemented in one way or another.

You can now call in the police. I know this sounds crazy, but the police chief can now call in the National Guard with one call. Doesn't have to go through a phone tree. I literally had to pass a piece of legislation to make that happen. Architect of the Capitol, funny name, but oversees almost all these other employees, thousands of employees, we can now hire that person, we just hired a new person, and we can terminate the person. It's not the president, it's members of Congress that have to agree on that. I also let in pass that bill. So we have done a number of things to put

accountability back in our shop and to make clear that security prevails. Hundreds of new officers have been added and morale is way up and you could feel that at the Capitol as it was a national security event yesterday. So, but President Trump has pledged to pardon some or all of the January 6th defendants. I just did an interview with Maggie Haberman and she thought he'd just do some of them. It's not clear. Oh not clear. What are your thoughts on that? Is there any way for Democrats to push back?

Yeah, you push back in that people died, in that officers were severely injured, in that this was an assault on the citadel of our democracy and clear crimes were committed, and it was an assault on police officers. And I know that the president-elect likes to talk about his friendships with police officers. Well, this was an assault on law enforcement, the rule of law and police officers. So it is my hope that at the very least, he's going to look at these on a case by case basis. I'm not a big fan of across the board pardons. I didn't agree with some of the pardons President Biden just made, agreed with some of them, but certainly not all of them, and

not the one involving his son and not a number of them, including the judge in Pennsylvania. But if President-elect Trump is going to pardon these insurrectionists across the board, that's just outrageous. Some of them were very violent and committed serious crimes. He's obviously on their side and not the police, this particular police force. But as chair of the Joint Congressional Committee for Inaugural Ceremonies, you're also responsible for Trump's upcoming inauguration. What are your concerns and what are you preparing for? Well, again, this is gonna be the peaceful transfer power

and it's gonna be hard for a lot of people who, like myself, supported Vice President Harris. But in the end, no matter who wins an election, there are those of us involved that have to say, okay, this is a democracy. And that is the very reason why you saw George Bush, for instance, on the platform when Joe Biden won. It is why you have seen a number of Democratic presidents, former presidents on the

platforms when Republicans have won. And I'm sure you'll see the same thing at this upcoming inauguration. So this is all about that peaceful transfer power. And so what do I expect? First of all, again, given the heightened security, given the attempt on the president-elect's life in the past and what we've seen from New Orleans to Las Vegas, there is obviously going to be heightened security. We certainly saw it on January 6, and in this case, it was successful. But we know that these attacks can come in any way

and you can't exactly imagine what people might try and that's why they have to be prepared for everything. And I do believe that they are prepared. So that is one of our big major focuses. The second, I know the president-elect is having the rally, a rally the night before. I'm sure there'll be all kinds of rhetoric and a lot of claims and angry, angry words, but we will see. I call them sore winners, but go ahead, go ahead.

Okay, but on the inaugural stage, I hope that this can be different than his last inauguration. I hope that there can be appeal to people not just supported him, but people who didn't support him as well. But you know, my job is to make sure that this happens and as hard as it is when your own candidate doesn't win, we have a job to do. I will note that President Trump did not attend President Biden's inauguration. That is correct and thank you for clarifying that record. No problem. So the last tally speaking, which he raised over $150 million, I think it's closer to $200 million for inauguration festivities, beating the previous 2017 record about $107 million.

For context, Biden's inaugural fund was just under $62 million. The list of million-dollar-plus donors reads like a tech world who's whose, people both you and I know, Amazon, Metta, Uber, AI startup perplexity the investment at Robin Hood Sam Altman of open AI and Apple CEO Tim Cook and others a promise personal checks of a million dollars. You've been one of the leaders on tech regulation in Washington. We've talked about it for years. Senator Klobuchar. What do you think of these huge donations and what do they signal to you about the upcoming

administration's relationships with big cat compared to Trump 1.0? He was relatively hostile to Tech many times, although it was haphazard, I would say. Mm-hmm. Now, as you know, Tech has given to both sides of the aisle, and I think it's important for people to know that. Yes, that is true. They have... Not like this.

No, but they have really pushed money into campaigns on on both sides the aisle And and it has had influence on both sides in my mind many directed at you I will know as we've discussed. Yeah directed at me not given to me. No But they are They are a very huge lobbying force on the Hill. That being said, of course I am concerned that they are immediately showing their colors and what the effect will have on this because effective antitrust legislation and effective enforcement, whether it's the AT&T breakup way back or whether it is some of the work going on with tech right now, which

has been to some extent effective. It starts with Republican, maybe goes to Democrat, goes back to Republican. That was the AT&T breakup. Many different presidents, different parties, these things take a long time. Both the Google and the Facebook cases, as you know, were started during the Trump administration. Facebook with the FTC, Google under Macon Delrahim, the head of antitrust under the Trump administration. And then they were carried on by Jonathan Cantor and Lena Cahn.

They of course added more cases with Amazon and concluded some cases and have been incredibly aggressive and not just on the tech front, but also whether it is the Kroger's Albertson merger or whether it is the work they did with Spirit Airlines, whether it's the work that they are doing and will be carried on, I hope, by the Trump administration on Ticket Master. This has been a sea change and it's not just one party or another. I think the Democrats were clearly more aggressive and I think that's good for a country. But this money that they're throwing at the president-elect right away, right at the beginning. He also seems to like money. Oh really? Yeah. It is, it's concerning because you've got, you're

gonna have them have, you know, unequal access and out there I don't really see all these little, you know little companies that are trying to compete and get into the marketplace. And you've got, whether it's Spotify trying to get the app store fees down from Apple, or whether it is companies that are competing against Google and Amazon and simply want their products to be on an equal footing on their search engines and their self, the big monopolies are self-preferencing. They're not putting a million dollars in and being able to get seeds right up front there at the parties. I mean, you know, that that's not happening to them.

So it's my job and the job of some Republicans who care about this to make this case and have strong oversight. We'll be back in a minute. Support for On with Kara Swisher comes from Quince. You can treat yourself to something new and cozy this January by updating your wardrobe with Quince. Quince offers a wide variety of luxury items at an affordable price. They're really well known for their iconic Mongolian cashmere sweaters which start at $50. It's a chic classic look made with high quality material. That describes a lot of Quince's offerings. Personally, I'm a fan of their luggage. I use it all the time. It is so great and people think I had a more

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learn more about the future of travel with Delta. Let's talk first about tech legislation. Every week we get a question from an outside expert. Here's a guy you and I both know well. Hi, I'm Jonathan Kander. I was head of antitrust at the US Department of Justice from 2021 to 2024. Here's my question. Big tech companies have unprecedented reach in our daily lives, but remarkably there are few if any industry guardrails

regarding even the most basic issues, like the collection of data and accumulation of power. For years, Congress has proposed moderate rules of the road. And you have actually sponsored or co-sponsored bills that have bipartisan support and widespread support from the general public. Yet here we are, unbelievably, in 2025 with almost no industry rules or safeguards

at all. What has to happen for Congress to finally pass table stakes legislation for tech? And I will also note as today, Mark Zuckerberg has decided to remove most fact checking from Facebook and move it to Texas. They are doing everything possible to go against some of the many things you've done. So I'd love you to answer Jonathan's question first overall, and then we'll get into some specifics. Sure. So first of all, I love that Jonathan Cantor

is a celebrity questioner on the show. He's very cool. Secondly, why has this not gone as farther than it should? I gotta start with the successes and one of them is Jonathan's and it has to do with legislation because actually Senator Grassley and I passed our bill to change the merger fees.

It was a vote and we got, you know, nearly I think 90 votes are in that range for it. More fees on big mergers, less fees on small mergers. That has added significantly to the funding for the Justice Department. I do know that Merrick Garland has significantly increased with Cantor's urging the number of lawyers and other personnel in antitrust. We're still not at the level of the Nixon administration, but we have greatly improved that and that's

allowed to do with what we did. So I figured if we couldn't get all our bills passed right now, that's one answer is that we help them to do the enforcement. Second thing, we also passed a bill to Mike Lee and my bill to allow state AGs to keep their cases in the states where they bring them and not move them all to California and New York, also a bit of a game changer. What are the challenges? You mentioned one of them, the big bill, the bill they have with Grassley, so they can't be self-preferencing their products.

This is the American innovation and competition online. That's exactly right. Right, it still has not passed. You and I have been talking about it for a while. Let me just, for people who don't know, it would have restricted tech giants like Amazon and Apple from giving their own products preferential treatment on their sites.

Exactly, that was the main thing, but there are many other things in it. And made it easier with some of this anti-competitive behavior to bring cases. Okay, so there's that bill. We get it through the committee. You know that on a very strong vote, Democrats and Republicans picked up a bunch of Republicans.

But then it never was able to get a vote in part because honestly the last few years Jim Jordan over in the House had made it very clear he wasn't going to let any tech legislation, any antitrust legislation that was significant, including my broader bill which would just kind of tip the scales a little to make it easier to bring any antitrust case, including in healthcare, including in ag and the like, for mergers, but also for anti-competitive behavior. And so that made it really hard to get the muster to keep pushing this bill when in fact they weren't going to do anything in the House. So my major focus turned to making sure that we got the funding into the division. And that's really important.

That's how they brought the Ticketmaster case. Do some big blockbuster hearings that we did, including one on Ticketmaster that I believe was one of the most significant hearings of the two years of any hearings in the impact that it had to gather evidence to finally push the Justice Department to move forward on what's clearly a monopoly. And then when it comes to tech, we just continue to get more allies. Sometimes it's on things like app stores, and you know where we have had success, and that is on these kids' bills. Success in that we've gotten some of these bills through the Senate.

We've got the bill on the Take it down act that I have with Senator Cruz that we are this close to passing. I predict it'll pass in the first six months of this year. It was in the final deal that somehow Elon Musk imploded, but we're not going to go there. Well, I am going to go there actually. Great. I'm going to go to him and say, go ahead. But I want to just to kind of do the for us for the trees.

We did the funding. We've done better. We've done better. We have done better in building momentum. When the next administration under the leadership of Gail Slater, and I'm hopeful she'll do a good job. She is the new Jonathan Cantor for people who don't know. Right. When they have the opportunity to make the agreements in some of these tech cases that

aren't yet resolved, guess what? They can put in their consent decrees if there are settlement or whatever they are, some of these things that are in my bills, right? Because they're already doing some of these things in Europe and Canada and other countries, so they can actually put these consumer protections in place that way, even if I still can't pass them as I wait and wait. And these things in other eras have taken many, many years to get passed. So there is absolutely no way I'm going to reintroduce the bill in the first month of this year. So no way I'm going to give up.

I mean, we're going to move forward. This is what I like about you, but let me just, the kids online safety act had bipartisan support, failed to pass house speaker Mike Johnson. Didn't bring it to the floor because as said it was worried about it will regulate free speech. But that's one. The Take It Down Act, another bipartisan criminalized revenge form including AI deep fakes passed the Senate was taken out in the spending bill as you noted. But whoa, whoa, whoa, but that bill we have gotten through the Senate like that bill has

a very good chance. Yes. Okay. But it was taken, it fell out. You've also introduced the No Fakes Act, which generally protect people, especially actors, singers to have their likeness and voice replicated by AI. You said we need to put rules of the road in place for AI. Mostly Europe has been acting here as you correctly noted.

Obviously, you've been at the forefront on anti-trust legislation, much of which has been stalled. I'm not getting to TikTok even yet, but you had Jim Jordan in your way, now you have Elon Musk in your way for many of these things. The richest man in the world. And his, his fortune has doubled. He's now has $400 billion versus $200 billion before.

Even though the Tesla is struggling, even though the stock has gone up 68%, even though its recent results were relatively weak compared to before. So what are you going to do? Jim Jordan is one thing, but Elon Musk is quite another. He has a cottage at Mar-a-Lago, by the way. He's living with him. So, well, yeah, living at the same place.

Okay. So number one- I'm using it broadly. Apparently, Melania doesn't mind according to a recent report. Okay, there are still some fact checkers in the world, even if Mark Zuckerberg is getting rid of them. Living next to him. Okay, so what we have seen across the country is, as I said, I believe there's momentum on this issue. There's a reason that the Trump administration put in a tougher enforcer who used to work with JD Vance, right? I talked to JD Vance about this directly.

He's willing to talk about antitrust. And that is because there is some momentum with the public when it comes to consolidation. It's big. And people are really tired of having their data stolen. They're tired of having their kids exposed to crap from fentanyl to pornography It is off the charts with where the public is on this So if these guys just stand and do nothing for year after year after year Believe me it will go back to haunt them because they are already responsible for stopping the porn bill

This is the bill I have with Cruz, and it's very good. It says in 48 hours, the platforms have to take down any of these pornographic images that are on their platforms. And that includes AI, and that includes actual pictures. So it's taken without people's consent. And it is a big deal. We've had over 20 suicides in one year from kids who are victims of revenge porn because they don't want their parents to know they had put this

picture online. It's unbelievably sad stories. That is in one year. So this big deal, and they're going to own this if they don't let this stuff pass. And Elon Musk stopped that bill, I believe, for other reasons. And they have had some support from their company for some of the kids' stuff, I know, because I heard them testify at the hearing on some of the kids' bills that we have, including the one you mentioned. So hopefully, those will go through. To me, that's just like the tip of the iceberg, if we can get the porn and the kids' bills done, because then you go to the real meat of this, which is antitrust. And that really gets into why is the National Independent Federation of Businesses, which is a more conservative group,

this is their number one goal to get this bill done, that Grassley and I have, because it is, they are starting to just get screwed online because of, whether it's Amazon Basics putting their stuff at online because of whether it's Amazon basics putting their stuff at the top or whether it's Google messing around with the algorithms or whether you have, by the way, renters who are screwed because of the way information is being fed into just one platform and it's like a high price fixing that's going on. So you see this all over the place. But, Senator, these, these people are now,

look, Mark Zuckerberg today just removed guardrails again, like the things you're talking about, and he attacked Europe, which has been more stringent than anybody else. And, and Elon Musk is now attacking European politicians with absolute misinformation, just in order to hurt them and backing right-wing groups and things like that. These are tech people have run amok now and they are in the positions of power that they were not in any previous administration that I can think of. Right, Kara.

So I think that that is true and it is on us to call this out. So when Elon Musk stops a bill that would limit pornography on his own platform, it's on us to call it out even if he was stopping the bills for some other reason. And I just think we're going to have to call people on it, show the conflicts, whether it's him or some other billionaire, because it is, we've never seen anything like this this is going to be a cabinet put it outside of tech here that has people that we've never the likes of which in terms of their money and the reach of their companies that we've never seen so by the way it's one of the reasons I've been so strong on calling

not only for FBI background checks, but also for these conflict checks, economic interest forms from all of these candidates and nominees for these jobs, because we have to know where they're coming from. Well, I kind of do. I kind of do know where they're coming from. They don't want any strictures. They don't want any regulations. They'd like you to go away.

That's for sure. I've heard it from them directly. I mean, the concept that these people are right next to Donald Trump and he is doing their bidding. Good example is the Supreme Court hearings this week on TikTok, China-based owner ByteDance, which is seeking to block the ban of the app from going into effect on January 19th, the day before the inauguration. Now, I have been a long time critic of TikTok for, you know this. Trump has asked the Supreme Court, he used to be a critic, to delay the implementation, one of his biggest funders, Jeff Yass, who has given him $100 million, has a huge economic stake and he owns 15% of the company.

He has basically said he does not want to support the ban. You all passed it. This is a law now at this point. So. So that is very clear. It's a law and they have a way to deal with this and that is that they can simply sell that part of the company to someone that doesn't have ties to China. And I know there've been groups of investors

that are interested in buying. They can divest. This is normal, as you know, in antitrust cases. It may not seem normal when you're dealing with TikTok in China, but it's normal all the time in America when there's some kind of a antitrust reason. The government can say, okay, you can do this deal,

you can do this thing, but you gotta divest your interests interests in foreign relations all the time. Companies have to divest certain parts of companies because they're dealing with whatever, Iran or a terrorist group or you name it. This happens. And so that is what they still have the opportunity to do. Obviously, there's going to be a court case on this, on the Supreme Court. This is going all the way. They've taken the case early. I have no idea, you know, how that's going to be resolved.

Do you have a thought? You're a lawyer. What would you think? Well, I think the will of Congress was pretty clear that this was about security and national security. And of course, we want to have this ability for people to keep using this platform, but they simply need to divest it. And that's what's going on. I know there are groups of investors that are interested in right now. And as for what Trump can do, the law is clear. I mean, if he wants to change the law, he will have that ability to get a Congress that is now seems very beholden to him. I suppose he could try to do that.

But at the same time, you have number of Republicans. This was a strongly bipartisan bill. It was. That passed, whoa, whoa, whoa, while the Republicans controlled the House and were very close in the Senate, and it had bipartisan support in the Senate or wouldn't pass. So that's what he's going to run into, and it was all about security.

I personally, and you know this, would have liked to see a law that would have been about, yeah, the security issues with China, yes, but also would have dealt with some of these other privacy issues, and the antitrust issues with Facebook, with Google, with Amazon, with Apple. And that just didn't happen because of their lobbying against my bill, against the App Store bill, which simply says,

hey, you can't just Pell-Mell, charge certain companies huge amounts of money just to get on your App Store while they're competing against, say, Spotify, competing against Apple Music. So these things which are going on in other countries are things we could do here. And I just want to make it very clear, I am in this. I am not giving up the fight. I'm going to hold them accountable for this. And at the same time, as we continue to grow, and we do more interest in this,

less people saying, Oh, Amy, what's wrong with the tech companies? Why are you being mean to them? And I'm like, I, I love tech. I really do. I use all the platforms. You know, I have a Fitbit. I use all these things, but it doesn Fitbit. I use all these things. But it doesn't mean that I don't want competition. I truly believe in capitalism. So I just say to

them, I guess I believe in capitalism more than you do. That's all. I believe that we should have competition and that we shouldn't have monopolies that are dominating. That's to me what it's about. It's not destroying these companies. It's simply finding ways to have more competition and not allowing them to use their monopoly power to screw everyone around them. They can still exist under this scenario. They simply may have to divest part of it, whether it's Google Ads, whether it is how they're running their ad tech platform, whether it is what's going on with self-preferencing. There are ways to do this where they would continue in all their glorious strong brands. Look at AT&T. They're still going strong after that breakup. All right. So one, you should probably use an aura ring at this point.

An aura ring? Okay, that's what Mark Warner wears, an aura ring. I have really small hands and I think it would look like super dominant on my hand. Are you wearing? I have an aura ring. Yeah, I am. Of course you do. But I don't know if I want to track every single moment of my life. I just use a simple thing to see my steps. Okay. Try to be a little and when my phone calls come in. But thank you for that.

No problem. Thank you for your tech suggestion. No problem. But one of the things that might happen was he hands it over to Elon Musk, who has some Chinese affiliations with his companies. Well, I don't know. I'm not going to engage in these hypotheticals, but it is a very... Distinct possibility. That's going to be a big deal. And I wish they would have taken the opportunity of divestiture and ways to do it seriously. And we'll see if they do.

And do you think China will go along with this? Well, that is again, this is alleged this is a company with strong Chinese ties. We know all of that. And that's why Congress passed this bill. But again, maybe there is a way to resolve this. We'll be back in a minute. is a way to resolve this. If you're serious about investing, you need to know about Public.com. That's where you can invest in everything, stocks, options, bonds, and more. And even earn a 6% or higher yield than you can lock in with a bond account. Visit public.com slash podcast to get up to $10,000 when you transfer your old portfolio.

That's public.com slash podcast. Paid for by Public Investing. All investing involves risk of loss, including loss of principal. Brokered services for U.S. listed registered securities options and bonds in a self-directed account are offered by Public Investing Incorporated. Members FINRA and SIPC. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. It's January 6th and Congress met today at 1 p.m. to certify Donald Trump as the winner of the 2024 election. Four years ago, you may recall, Congress was meant to do the same, but the certification was delayed when thousands of Trump supporters marched on the Capitol.

The president-elect has said repeatedly, and he told NBC again last month, that he's going to pardon at least some of the insurrectionists. Those people have suffered long and hard, and there may be some exceptions to it, I have to look. But, you know, if somebody was radical, crazy, there might be some people from Antifa there. I don't know, you know, because those people seem to be in good shape. Whatever happened to Scaffold Man? You had to be there.

Antifa was actually not there four years ago, but members of several extremist groups were at the Capitol on Jan 6th. And today on Explained, we're going to ask, wither American extremism on the eve of a second Trump administration? Today Explained, every weekday, wherever you get your podcasts. Support for On with Kara Swisher comes from R.A.M.P. Do you want to simplify finance operations for your business? From expenses to vendor payments to accounting, R.A.M.P. could be a complete game changer. R.A.M. Ramp is the corporate card and spend management software

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so you don't have to. That way you can close the books faster and it means Ramp saves you time and money. According to their data, businesses that use Ramp save an average of 5% in the first year. You can get started, issue virtual and physical cards and start making payments in less than 15 minutes. And now get $250 when you join Ramp. Just go to ramp.com slash cara. That's ramp.com slash cara, spelled R-A-M-P dot com slash cara. Cards issued by Sutton Bank, member FDIC. Terms and conditions apply. Let's finish up with the Trump administration coming very quickly. I'm not going to get into all the controversial appointments on Trump's list because there are many. There are some that are close issues you focus on.

You're on the Senate Judiciary Committee and the Commerce Committee. You were chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, I need to trust. So let's do a lightning round. I'm going to name some nominees like you. Tell me briefly the question you like to ask them in a Senate hearing if they have a few of them, Walt. And what's your biggest concern about, you don't have to, whichever one, or their biggest concern about their nomination.

Former Florida Attorney General, Pam Bondi, Trump's AG picked, you said you worried about revenge. Okay, well I'm going to be meeting with her before the hearing, so I'll have an opportunity to ask a lot of questions, but my basic question for the next Attorney General is, will you uphold the law? That is what an Attorney General is supposed to do. That's kind of basic. And I think that'll be, that'll, that'll get us into, I will also, of course, I think this is very important to do. Will you enforce the law when it comes to financial crimes and all kinds of

things that we know are going on that are hurting people in the economy? But I'm also going to ask about antitrust, which is part of that, because if I don't, I don't know who will. My guess is Senator Blumenthal will and some of the Republicans will. But we've got to make sure that that is upfront and center. And I'll be asking her about that in our private meeting as well. And you've noted that you're worried about revenge being part of her mission. Gail Slater, who you've mentioned to lead the DOJ's antitrust division, she was an aid

to Vice President-elect JD Vance. She's in here. It's lawsuits you mentioned before. Right. I've heard very good things about her. Yeah. And I'm looking forward to meeting with her. I've heard the same. And I'm looking forward to talking with her just about some of the cases. She obviously can't go in deep about what they're doing, what she will want to do with certain cases. But I'll just give her some of my views and really push to have them look at the legislation that we have now that the Justice Department supported, because that would help me. Macon-Delrahim had supported, for instance, a merger fee bill, and we eventually got it

done. I'll push on that, and then I'll say, look at the details in some of those pieces of legislation and think about how they can be incorporated in consent decrees with the companies as ways to remedy what is monopoly conduct. And in a way, that is one way we can get into without passing the legislation, changing the conduct for everyone. So I'm gonna put as a pair Andrew Ferguson and Brandon Carr.

Andrew Ferguson is gonna replace Lena Kahn as the head of the FCC, Brandon Carr. I thought you were to replace Lena Kahn as the head of the FCC. Brandon Carr. I thought you were going to go to the cash Patel. I'm going to get to him. Don't worry, he's the last two. Andrew Ferguson and Brandon Carr, neither of two will actually have confirmation hearings

because they're already on the committees. But they both say they want to crack down on big tech, and also media companies. And their biggest concern seems to be content moderation against conservative voices. Mm-hmm. So I will, we won't have a confirmation hearing, but I think you can imagine I will ask for a meeting with each of them. I've met with Brendan Carr. We had previous confirmation hearings on Ferguson. And I mean, I'm going to be, or previous hearings, I'm going to be really pushing hard on the ongoing cases,

the tech cases, and what they're gonna do. I'm also gonna be pushing really hard on the resource issue because the merger fee change that I mentioned gave more resources to both the FTC and to the Justice Department. As I said, something like a 90 vote, a 90 Senator vote on that. It just shows that I'm not alone in believing that this is good for America when they enforce

these laws. It actually brings in resources, some of the cases do, to the departments that they will lead. And so they'll be, I'm going to have focus a lot on them standing up for the law and the antitrust laws and of course the consumer laws with the FTC. Cash Patel, go for it. Unless you want Pete Hegseth, you choose. Ladies choice. I'll stay with my judiciary committee nominee. I guess I may ask about why did Bill Barr,

a very conservative attorney general, say that over his dead body would Cash Patel serve in the administration back in the last administration that seems concerning And so then I I don't know if I'll say it that way Given that we just saw a terrorist attack Horrific terrorist attack with so many innocent people so so many of them young, dying in New Orleans and what we just saw in Vegas and all of the cyber attacks that we've seen and

change health care. How do you explain that you want the FBI building in Washington to become a museum and that you want to destroy the headquarters? And I get having strong field offices. I'm a former local DA, I know how important that is, but come on, some of these investigations are by their nature consolidated. You're not going to have just a, you know, Minnesota or a New Mexico investigation, you have to have them coordinated. And just some of the comments that he's made about having a

revenge agenda, very concerning to me. Yeah, as are to everyone. Okay, last few questions. As an outgoing head of the Subcommittee on Antitrust, you held a hearing about continuing bipartisan path forward, as you mentioned at the beginning of this. It was a very good hearing. Yes. Now, there's been lots of bipartisan agreement. And I know you're from a purple state and you pulled from a broad swath of voters in your re-election. But you really think a Republican trifecta in Washington is looking to reach across the aisle? They don't have to now. They don't, but they still do in the Senate, Kara. I mean, like, you know, except for these nominations are 51 votes. And these some certain kinds of things like tax and spend that can be 51 votes in that procedural thing

called reconciliation, but the rest of it is 60 votes. So in the Senate, they are going to need bipartisan support on a lot of things, including antitrust. And so that's, I start with that, where they're gonna have to work across the aisle. They can't do a just, hey, we run the world so we can do what we want. At the same time, if they all really believe

in doing something on consolidation, well, they've got the votes because I can easily get them seven Democrats in a minute. There's 53 of them in the Senate and they have the majority in the house. So I think holding them accountable for using that majority in positive ways, um, is going to be really important. And if they want to talk the talk on consolidation and doing something about

tech and privacy and pornography and protecting the public and they believe in capitalism, which I believe many of them do, and if and they believe in capitalism, which I believe many of them do. And if they really believe in it, then they can't be bought out by monopoly interests, whether it's for the inauguration or whether it is for the way that legislation heads through Congress. And that is your red line. Red line will be you guys need to push on getting things done and I know it's hard because

it's even a little hard on our side sometimes. I'm not some you know Pollyanna about how hard it is to pass this tech legislation but the cases that you've got already and the ones you can bring they better be resolved in a good way that helps the American public and not sold out for cheap. Okay. Last two questions. In 2028, are you running for president again? I am happy being in the Senate.

I just moved into the number three leadership spot in the Democratic caucus. The president's kind of better. The president's still better. Every day is just a joy here. No, I am focused on my job. I just got re-elected and I think that we have such an important job right now in the Senate that I hope no one's thinking yet of their own names for years. They've got to be thinking about what's in front of us.

It's amazing. Nobody is. Nobody is. No one. no one. Anyway, so are you having fun with this podcast, Kara? Yes, I am. All right. I'll move on. It's a very, it's very good.

What's your plan for your podcast four years from now? That's what I'm- Are you kidding? It's bigger than ever. Who are you going to have on your guest three years from now? President Amy Klobuchar, hopefully. All right. Anyway, one more last personal question.

The podcast will air on Thursday, January 9th, the day that President Jimmy Carter's funeral. Your first gig in Washington was as a college intern for Carter's vice president, Mondale, another famous Minnesotan. He seems to be the opposite of everything right now, it feels to me. I'd love you just to talk for one minute about Carter and his legacy for you. So I got to know Carter quite well. I got to have pimento cheese sandwiches with Rosalind and Jimmy Carter down in Plains. I got to watch him teach

Bible school and a lot of that was because of Walter Mondale. And if you go down to the Carter Center, which I strongly suggest people do in Atlanta, you see him blazing on the wall the words of Walter Mondale, not uttered when they won, but when they lost. And he looked back at their four years and he said, we told the truth, we obeyed the law, we kept the peace. We told the truth, we obeyed the law, we kept the peace. I can't think of a better mantra, of a better goal for us and purpose in the next few years.

Jimmy Carter not only taught us how to run when no one thought you could win and have a purpose and that's why he did it. By the way, his relationships with musicians is fun. My favorite movie of the year. Yeah. My favorite movie of the year. Rock and roll present? No, the Dylan movie.

Oh, the Dylan movie. Yeah. I really like it. It's really good. My favorite movie of the year. Rock and roll present? No, the Dylan movie. Oh, the Dylan movie. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I really like it. It's really good. So, a complete unknown. That was Jimmy Carter back then, right? So he taught us that.

Then he taught us how to govern with dignity during a very difficult time. Then, and that's where the told the truth obey the law kept the peace. But then what did he do when he lost? Resiliency. Unbelievable post presidency building homes across the country with the expansion of Habitat for Humanity, the work he's done on human rights, the work that he's done, did on so many other things that mattered. And I just think that that resiliency is something people need right now. A lot of people feel gut punched after this election.

Duh, you know, they're tuning out. Hopefully they're listening to their podcasts or they wouldn't get to the end of this podcast for me to answer this question. So they are not totally tuned out. But there's a lot of people that are tuned out and they feel so separated out. So what I say to them is go back in and it might just mean going to your work parties and hanging out at ballgames and doing things you wouldn't normally go to concerts and seeing each other again and looking up from your phones. But it also means believing in a purpose and what you can accomplish and not giving up. We might have lost an election from my perspective, but we didn't lose hope. All right, Senator Klobuchar, thank you so much.

Thank you. Thanks, Kara. hope. All right, Senator Klobuchar, thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks, Kara. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Kateri Okum, Jolie Myers, Megan Cunane, Megan Burney and Kailin Lynch. Nishant Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you are watching your steps like Senator Klobuchar.

If not, be more like me and put a ring on it. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.