On with Kara Swisher - Tech and Kids: Parenting Expert Dr. Becky Answers Listener Questions

Episode Date: September 5, 2024

How much screen time is OK for a two year old? What is the right age for kids to get on Instagram or TikTok? And is there such a thing as "good" social media? Figuring out how to grapple with technology is one of the biggest headaches parents have to deal with these days. Kara talks to Dr. Becky (the "millennial parent whisperer") to get answers to the most pressing questions about tech and parenting. And this time, our expert questions come from you — our listeners! Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist who’s been called the “millennial parent whisperer." She is also a best-selling author and successful entrepreneur who has 2.8 million followers on Instagram, a hit TED talk, and a subscription-based platform called Good Inside that recently launched an app. Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find Kara on Instagram/Threads as @karaswisher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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you can get closer to everything you love about city life in the all-new, reimagined Nissan Kicks. Learn more at www.nissanusa.com slash 2025 dash kicks. Available feature. Bose is a registered trademark of the Bose Corporation. Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere? And you're making content that no one sees? And it takes forever to build a campaign?

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My guest today is Dr. Becky Kennedy, or Dr. Becky to you. She's a clinical psychologist focused on parenting, and she's being called the Dr. Spock of this generation. Dr. Becky started posting parenting advice on social media in 2020 and at the start of the COVID-19 pandemic when families were on lockdown. It was a parenting nightmare for many. I can tell you it was for me, having to figure out education and dealing with kids that were socially isolated. And every parent had a really hard time themselves too at that time, as did everybody.

In the middle of the panic, Dr. Becky's message was stay calm. Our kids, your kids need right now more than anything, parents who can say, I will just sit with you in this kind of time of massive disappointment. Her feed blew up. Within a year, Dr. Becky had more than a half a million followers. Four years later, she has 2.8 million on Instagram and another 200,000 plus on TikTok, a best-selling book, a TED Talk. In 2021, she launched a subscription-based platform, Good Inside, where parents can watch videos and workshops and get advice for just under $300 a year. She's also launching an app. According to PitchBook, the site recently raised $10.5 million in venture capital funding.

Parenting advice is a huge business. Of course, how to deal with technology, screen time, social media has become one of the biggest parenting issues of our times. We've talked about it a lot here on the show, and we've gotten a lot of feedback from listeners on those episodes. So instead of our usual expert question, we're going to ask Dr. Becky to answer your questions. Hi, Cara. Hi, Becky. This is Peter Monahan from Howard County, Maryland. This is Brian from Atlanta with a question for Dr. Becky.

Thank you both so much for covering this topic. We really appreciate it. Two Luddites in Seattle. I can't wait to hear from all of them because I also have a lot of questions as a parent of four kids. So this should be fun and really informative. Here's Dr. Becky. Dr. Becky, welcome. Thank you for being on On. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. I am excited to talk to you about parenting, especially about parenting and tech. But there's a lot of things. We've got a bunch of audience questions for you.

But first, you are a clinical psychologist and you're also a mom of three kids. I have four kids, two college-age and two in preschool. The first question, I know it sounds funny. I wonder how your kids have shaped your work. They certainly have shaped mine in different ways. Oh my goodness, such a great first question. It's never been the first question I've been asked. I love it. I mean, so much. I mean, I think about it in so many ways. Number one, I think one of the things I've learned from my three kids is if I think about all the different parts of me, I think we all have multiple parts of ourselves. Each of

my kids needs a different part of me to be lead parent to them. Another thing that's really shaped me is, you know, I had my first kid and he definitely, he had his meltdowns, he had his moments, but I would kind of do the things that I would talk about on Good Inside. And for the most part, he would feel better. It would kind of quote work, right? And then I had my second kid. And I was just like, oh, my goodness. And I thought back to people I was seeing in my private practice who'd say to me things like, you know, I'm trying all the things you're saying, but I swear it makes things worse. And I'll be honest with you, where in the back of my head, I do think

I had a thought. It sounds awful, but I'll be honest. I was like, you know, you're probably not doing it right. You're probably not doing it how I would do it. To their face, I'd say, okay, no worries. Let's try something new. But I think I thought that. And then I had my second kid. Yeah. Welcome to the Thunderdome. I was like, oh my goodness, I want to call all of them and just say, oh my goodness, I'm living it too. And I know the way I'm saying it. And different kids respond differently. And there are some kids, and this is a whole maybe side topic, although it's almost my passion project within the passion project that is good

inside. I talk about these deeply feeling kids, and that was my second kid. And then I put so many things together around what a subset of kids need. And I think the last thing I'll say is I feel like I've been able to delight in my kids spikiness with each successful kid. Like I think about my third, who was so independent. He is not a people pleaser at all. He'll talk back. And I think if that was my first, I'd be like, oh my goodness, maybe I didn't trust myself and my parenting and time as much. But with my third, we reign him in and I delight in it is to delight in your kids and the freedom we give ourselves to do that. Yeah. Particularly in the moments that someone else might say, oh, you know, you have a difficult kid is really transformative. You know, I never say that.

I'm always fascinated with, they're always like, oh, kids are so hard. I'm like, they're not hard. Like I always do. I mean, they are, but they're not. I don't, I spend a lot of time not downgrading my kids to people, right? You know, talking about the work thing, I asked my son who's 22, he's here, although he takes up more time than the toddlers, let's just be clear. He's like, Mom, I need my ears cleaned. Mom, I need this frame.

Mom, I need a mattress. It's like all time-consuming things and little kids you can deal with with a pretzel, essentially. But one of the things that I think about a lot is the – I was talking to my wife last night is how different kids are no matter what you do. Like how they – and you have to approach them. And each single one of them was different in some way and similar also at the same time. And so there's no one parenting tip that you could give for any one kid, although there's types. That's certainly the case. Definitely.

one kid, although there's types, that's certainly the case. Definitely. And I mean, I think I've taken a very kind of first principles approach to parenting, which, you know, means like, okay, all these things were told, kids have to be punished. Or if you don't respond in a certain way, you're reinforcing bad behavior. It's like, okay, those are assumptions. Those are assumptions. Those are assumptions. What are we left with? And to me, those first principles, kids are good inside, inside connection first kind of at the end of the day connecting to your kid is really the only parenting strategy you have or at least I think of it as a multiplier on the effectiveness of every other strategy kids need sturdy leaders this idea of sturdy leadership like that's true for every single kid now how those things come to life

how you interact with your kids to make those things true definitely differs. And I kind of believe that all kids, kind of all adults, that is, but what a terrible person. Your site is actually called Good Inside. And for people who don't know, give us a sense of the underlying philosophy and an example of how that might look in practice so people can understand because there are different philosophies. To me, the essence of good inside goes back to what I think of as the key to parenting. And I do think the key to parenting is what I call sturdy leadership, right? And I think I can define this concretely, but I also think a metaphor brings us to life in a felt sense. I always find that useful, right? Where life is turbulent, just like plane flights are turbulent. And social media might think it's all perfect. It's not. And really, how we respond to turbulent moments is what really, really matters. And so if you think about being on a plane and the pilot you'd want, it's really helpful

in bringing to life what a kid wants from their pilot, which is you, right? Which is during a turbulent moment, you want a pilot who recognizes how you're feeling and doesn't let your feelings dictate what they do. There's two components of sturdy leadership. Boundaries, which are key decisions we make because at the end of the day, we are the pilot and they're really a way of keeping kids safe. Kids don't want to pilot the plane and they know situations when they shouldn't. So boundaries are one component of sturdy leadership. And the other component is validation, which is seeing someone else's feelings, their experience as real. And I think what's core in sturdy leadership is as a parent, my boundaries don't dictate my kids' feelings,

and my kids' feelings don't dictate my boundaries. And over and over, that definition of sturdy leadership and giving parents a sense of their job, your job, almost in every situation, comes back to the same first principles, boundaries and validation, which makes for sturdy leadership. Can I ask you why you picked the word sturdy? That's an unusual word. Is it an unusual word? Right? Strong leadership. You could have picked 10 other words. Oh, you know, so many, I guess, of the words I use, and I think they actually go back

to this like felt sense. Like when I think about someone in my life that I feel very safe with, and I feel close to, but kind of not so close that I think I'm going to overpower them. The word sturdy comes to mind. I think sturdiness indicates just kind of the right amount of permeability where someone hears me, they would allow me in a certain situation to influence them. And yet I don't worry about blowing them over. Like I don't think I could overpower them. They have an edge to them. And I think sturdiness refers to that like moderate, healthy permeability that I think honestly, all of us are always looking for in other people in our closest relationships. So not immovable, right? That's right. Although kids do want that feeling of safety.

At moments when they know inherently, again, kids know certain moments that they should not be in charge of and it's often moments when they're unsafe. In that moment, setting a boundary with your kid is an act of love for your kid. I'm protecting my kid. You're right. My two-year-old does not see it that way when he's jumping from the top of a shelf.

Well, they don't see it that way consciously, right? And we can go through an example. Maybe there's a good example of sturdy leadership in action, because I think there's two polarities in parenting that we've moved between, and both of them are incomplete parenting strategies. And one is kind of like punishment. I wouldn't even say it's boundaries only, because I actually think punishment and consequences aren't boundaries. They're usually from acts of desperation, but there's punishment, there's consequences. And the other side, there's this idea that validating my kid's feelings is a complete parenting approach. And without a doubt, it's not, right? It's equally as dangerous for kids in different ways. Sturdy leadership is that

kind of balance of extremes. And so let's say my kid is jumping on the couch. I think this is a good example. Your two-year-old is jumping on the couch. I'll paint the more extreme versions first. One version is I'm going to count to three. And if you don't get off the couch, no dessert tonight. Yeah. Count to three.

That's an old. You're a normal toddler. That's an old. They're looking at you, smiling, jumping on the couch. You're not listening. You're not listening. I'm going to give you one more warning. This is your warning. And then they don't do it. And then I take away their dessert. And then I give back the dessert later because I don't really want to have a meltdown at the end of the night. And that's one version.

I just did that last night, but go ahead. And I think the other version is, oh, you want to jump on the couch. Jumping is fun, fun, fun. And then we say this thing like, we don't jump on couches, which, or we don't hit people. And my kid's like, yeah, I don't see you hit people. Like, I know that. And, you know, or we say, oh, let's jump here instead. But you just don't actually pair those words with any action. So my kid in the first situation feels totally disconnected from me, feels like some arbitrary consequences being given that, by the way, we undermine our own authority by taking it away. In the second situation, my kid basically feels

like I am the pilot of the plane. My parents telling me not to do something, but they're not making that happen, right? Both are unhelpful for children and lead to frustration from parents. Here's sturdy leadership. Hey, sweetie, I'm not going to let you jump on the couch so close to the glass table, right? For whatever reason I have, I'm not going to let you jump on the couch. And so I'm going to walk over to you. And if by the time I get there, you're not off the couch, let me just tell you what I'm going to do. I am going to put my hands around your waist. I'm going to put you on the floor. And then I'll show you a different area where you can jump more safely. Now, like you said, Cara, when I do that, that beautiful intervention that I would never say exactly like that in real life because I'm

overwhelmed too. But let's say I do something like that in real life. My kid will not look at me and say, thank you for being a sturdy leader. You're amazing. I feel so safe. They will actually do their job, which is protest because their job is actually to have feelings, because that's the only way they can develop coping skills for feelings. They will protest, which kicks in part two of sturdy leadership. It's perfect. Validation. Oh, jumping on the floor doesn't feel so fun to you. You wish you could jump on the couch. And when I say that, parents often say, oh, so I let them back on the couch. No. Validating feelings does not mean I've changed my decision. There's a wash, rinse, repeat to sturdy leadership. And I love it because it's easy to remember. I set a boundary. My kid does their job of having a feeling. I validate the feeling while I continue to hold the boundary.

Then you get which one. Over and over and over. So move it or lose it is not a good strategy. I mean, again, I'm not judging. And there's a percentage of the time. I mean, have I said stuff like that in my house or I'm going to take away dessert? Of course, I'm a normal human. I say it all the time. And my kids love it. I go, what are we going to say? And they go, move it or lose it, mom. And I'm like, that is correct. So one of the things you, everyone tries to find answers with children doctors, essentially,

and you're being called Dr. Spock of this generation. And for those who don't know, Dr. Spock wrote a groundbreaking parenting guide in 1946. It sold 50 million copies by the time he died in 1998. So basically, boomers and Gen X was raised on his ideas. All his stuff was a lot around trusting your instincts that had already had everything they needed instinctually to be good parents, but he was criticized as being too permissive. How do you look at that comparison? How do you look at sort of the legacy of Dr. Spock and then what you are trying to achieve? You know, I want to be totally honest in that I probably haven't done a deep dive to like the historical impact of Dr. Spock. Right. I can speak to the legacy I'd want to

leave. I think the legacy I want to leave is, number one, this ability to be two important things at once, to hold two things as true, as I say, I think is critical. And to me, one way of doing that is I can be boundaried and firm and warm and empathic at the same time. I think that is core to how I want parents to think about their leadership in the family. Ironically, we've modernized our sense of leadership, I think, for CEOs and sports coaches in that direction much earlier than we have for parents. So maybe we're just following suit with athletics and business, but that's one legacy. Another legacy I would like to leave

is actually, I want parents saying everywhere, there's no such thing as a perfect parent. That wouldn't be good. That's not realistic. We're humans, not robots. You know, I think my TED Talk was on the power of repair because if there's one idea

I want to get out there, it's that repair is actually the most important parenting strategy there is. And you can't repair if you didn't mess up. So to do the most important thing, you got to be imperfect. And then I also think there's a sense of deserving that I'd like to leave as a legacy, you know, and it's so deeply connected to the work I wake up every morning to do. Parenting is the most important job, I believe, in the world. I agree. And the hardest job in the world, and probably the most ongoing, right? You're never off the clock. And it's really like the only job that we're given no resources and support for. And

then we tend to tell ourselves the story that we're bad at it when we're struggling instead of kind of turning that self-blame into a little bit of anger and deserving of maybe I'm not bad at it maybe I haven't been set up for success yeah it's interesting when you say that because a lot of parents you know they're like I'm not a good parent and they're like do you think you're a parent I'm like I'm an excellent parent like no like it's interesting how we tend to like a lot of parents insult themselves a lot, you know, that they're messing up, which is interesting. And I think it's because, you know, in 2021, Time Magazine called you millennial parenting whisperer and read that millennials don't want to just be better parents. They want to understand how the way they were raised impacts

the way they're raising their own kids. So in a lot of ways, they're sort of referencing backwards to their own, how they have been parented. And I know I do that quite a bit. Talk about the difference, why you think it's important to address anxiety about parenting, because so many parents have it. And I'm always talking parents down from the ledge. Yeah, well, I think some of that anxiety, some of it relates to the self-blame, right? So when things are hard, I have anxiety around the fact also that I'm telling myself this is all my fault and I messed my kid up and it's too late and I'm not good at this. And again, Cara, to your point, I mean, like, if I had a friend who was

a surgeon and said I'm bad at surgery, but then I found out they never went to med school, I'd say, you're not bad at surgery. You just, you weren't really set up to do this well. Go to med school. Right, and you won't be doing my liver transplant, but if you dig into the implications of believing there's a maternal instinct, then I believe that everything that's hard is just something I'm not born with. Or paternal instinct too. But maternal gets more of the attention, that's for sure. Without a doubt, right?

It's almost like a way to just like keep women down in the system, as long as we buy into the fact that there's a maternal instinct, we will stay small and full of shame, right? And, you know, I think honestly those are the biggest things I think about with anxiety and I'll just call it out up front. I think people have said to me, do you ever worry that what you're doing makes parents more anxious? It's like more pressure. And I really mean this. I think there's like a deep misogyny in the question because I've never heard someone ask an executive coach if they're making a CEO more anxious. People say, look at the way you're elevating their leadership or a sports psychologist. Are you just making an athlete more anxious? It's one more thing they need to do. No, they say, wow,

look at you adding this element and bringing out the full potential that lived in this athlete. What an amazing field. And so I think, again, the question around that, which you didn't even ask me, but I'll just put it out there. I think what makes parents anxious is that we are set up to fail. And then we're set up with a narrative that explains that struggle as our fault. And that's, you know, big picture what I'm looking to change. Well, one of the things in a recent survey from Lurie's Children's Hospital, one in four millennials said they get parenting advice from social media, which is interesting. And 85% of social media creates unrealistic parenting expectations, nearly half felt burnt out, which seems normal. That seems low to me. But talk a little bit about this idea of anxiety that comes from feeling inept.

Yeah. Look, I think checking in with yourself when you're consuming information is really important evidence. And it's evidence you only have access to yourself. And so I'm reading a book. I'm following someone on social. I'm listening to a podcast. I'm taking a course to pause and say, I just want to check in with myself. How am I feeling as I'm consuming this?

Now, I think there's a nuance. I think new things always feel uncomfortable. They do. That discomfort isn't a sign necessarily that it's bad or wrong. It's usually definitely a sign it's new. I say, okay, I'm uncomfortable. Let me just notice. Does this feel empowering?

Does this feel hopeful? Do I feel like I'm tapping into something that someone recently said this to me about this course they took from me? They said, I feel like you're just saying something I always knew was true but never had the words for. So is it like connecting something that already lives inside me? Or am I noticing as I'm consuming this person's social media, like I feel worse about myself, right? We're so not used to. Well, a lot of them make it seem like it's easy. It's very similar to every kind of social media

where you feel behind. It's so performative. That's right. We do a lot more consuming and gazing out versus checking in and gazing in. Right?

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Of course, life is getting more complex, and I want to switch gears into tech, where I get a lot of questions about parent tech anxiety constantly. When to give kids phones, how to handle screen time, whether to let them have social media account, etc., we usually let an outside expert send us a question for our guests. This week, we asked our listeners for questions. We got some really good ones. I'm excited to hear your thoughts because this is an area that pretty much every single parent, as I said, really is upset about in some way and feels hopeless, I would say. Karen, Dr. Becky, we are parents of a 12-year-old rising sixth grader in Seattle. Neither of us is really on social media at all.

And we're wondering about two things. First, about a suggested timeline for tweens to engage with their first technology. We're considering getting our kiddo an Apple Watch for next year. But in that respect, we'd be interested about recommendations for when to switch to a phone and a good way to dial back those parental controls. The larger question may be about how, as parents, we can get educated on the various media platforms that are out there. If there's a one-stop shop, that would be great, but I doubt it.

Thank you both so much for covering this topic. We really appreciate it. Two Luddites in but I doubt it. Thank you both so much for covering this topic. We really appreciate it. Two Luddites in Seattle. I love it. This is one of those super challenging nuanced yes on everyone's minds as mine as well, two topics. So, you know, John and I have been doing a lot of talking about this because we have this like amazing kind of partnership around like highlighting the problems. We've had them on the podcast. Yeah, I think about myself as kind of like the on the ground practical solutions. And I think one of the tricky things for right now, before hopefully norms really change, is how do I manage the challenges of technology with also the real

challenges of, and I don't know if this is true for the person who called in, of my kid being the only kid who isn't blank. That's real, you know? And so there's just nuance in how we're managing this and what's hopefully this like in-between state. So there's a couple things I would say about this, right? Number one, our boundaries around our kid's digital world really matters. And I think one of the things we need to zoom out and reflect on before we get into like our technology policy with our kids is what is already in the dna of my relationship with my kid when it comes to setting boundaries and tolerating my kid being upset because if i've never said no to a cupcake saying no to tiktok won't happen no matter what my intention is because my boundary setting muscle

it's just truly not strong enough to flex. They don't believe you. Yeah, they don't believe you. There's a million times we have to hold a boundary with a kid, and actually working up to these higher-stakes situations is some of the best immediate work we can do. That's number one. Number two, we're on the same team when it comes to our kids, and I think that's really important. That's like a big part of good insight is what I call same- mindset, not opposite team mindset. Our kids feel our mindset and our intervention, the same exact intervention saying, no, we're not giving you a phone yet. We're sticking to your Apple Watch as an example. No, we're not giving you a smartphone.

You can have this flip phone for now. The same exact intervention will be felt and therefore will go completely differently. Whether I'm coming at this from a place of kind of being annoyed at my kid and kind of from a place of control versus from a place of we actually want the same things for you. You may not know you want those things for yourself, but I know you do and we're on your team. And that really matters. And that's one of my favorite things to help parents with is how can I phrase this? How can I emote this in a way that shows I'm on my kid's team here? This is from a place of protection, not punishment. And our kids, our teens really feel that difference. And so for this parent, what I'd say is, this is a great thing to talk to your kid about. Hey, we're thinking about how you're getting older. You're

going to be more independent. Communication matters. And we want to be very transparent with you. Our job is to keep you safe, not happy. Right. But what do you do in a situation where, you know, one of the things is the parents themselves are addicted, the parents themselves have issues. And the problem with phones and things like that is they're necessary for your job now, they are addictive, and they're ubiquitous, right? And so it's difficult when parents themselves are signaling their own similar problems where the kids are headed. That's right. And I think the issue with us being on our phones all the time is actually like one level deeper.

Because number one, yes, everyone knows we're modeling this behavior. That's important. But the thing I think that's even more compelling to think about is our phones reduce our frustration tolerance. We are all less tolerant of the frustrations of day-to-day life because of the gratification cycles our phones get us in. Wanting something and then spending very little effort and getting that thing quickly get us accustomed to those circuits. I think what's really happening with parents, and this is me too, I'm so not above this, our tolerance for our kids pushback and whining and being upset with us is lower because of our own phone use. So not only are we modeling the behavior we don't want them to have, which we all know, not great, we are also

less tolerant of our kids pushback because our circuitry is now built for more immediate gratification. Fair. That's absolutely true. It's like, just put on the Vampirina or whatever. Just stop yelling at me. That's right. Fine. I'll give you the phone. And it's not really a technology policy that I'm enacting. It's actually enacting my own circuitry with, I just want my life to get easier right now because I've kind of gotten accustomed to that happening in a million different ways. I want my life to get easier right now because I've kind of gotten accustomed to that happening in a million different ways. So 12 years used to be a pretty typical age for parents to start getting tech pressure. It feels antiquated now. How early is this becoming an issue?

Because I've seen some kids that are 8 and 9 with phones, which I think is just astonishing. They're on TikTok at 7 or 8 and 9. That's correct. I think it's become earlier and earlier an issue. They're on TikTok at 7 or 8 and 9. That's correct. I think it's become earlier and earlier an issue. But again, Cara, I think it's so important for parents to reconceptualize because it's actually more hopeful and even more practical in my mind is this is not actually the issue of tech. We've always had trouble setting boundaries with kids.

It's hard. It's just that the cost to not being able to set boundaries has never been so high because of the presence of technology and the accessibility. So I think we actually have to say, yes, if a kid is on TikTok at age eight, that's actually probably because I had trouble tolerating my kid's tantrum and I probably did the puzzle for them and I just got them that ice cream every time, not because I wanted to, but because actually our relationship has always been around my kid getting upset. I'm not doing sturdy leadership. I'm letting my kid fly the plane.

So then, of course, my kid's on TikTok at age eight. It's just actually a natural extension of how I've parented. Right. Without a doubt, we know, and probably no one needs me to say this, eight-year-olds, seven, they should not be on social media. We know they should be at least double the age, right? We know they should be at least double the age, right? We know that. But to me, the power of parents and the hope actually goes back to this idea of sturdy leadership because the earlier and whatever the time is, it's earlier today than it will

be tomorrow and a year from now. So I say the right time to change is now. The earlier we establish with our kids that we are the pilot and we are here to protect them, not make them immediately short-term happy, the easier all this will be. All right. So the next question is the other end of the spectrum, which sort of addresses this. I'm Sean from New York, a first-time caller and longtime fan. I have an almost two-year-old, and I'd like to ask about non-screen time tactics for keeping toddlers occupied. Working in tech, I really wanted to do no screen time at all with

my son. But after my wife and I went back to do no screen time at all with my son, but after my wife and I went back to work, the realities of juggling childcare, parenting, work, and household responsibilities forced our hand. Screen time has become a necessary tool for us if one of us is home alone and needs time to cook dinner or throw some clothes in the laundry or respond to an urgent email, and frankly, I don't love that I do that. So my first question for Dr. Becky is, am I wrong for beating myself up for using screen time as a way to get things done?

And second, I'm wondering if you have recommendations for similar tools that parents can use other than screen time in these types of scenarios. Well, we've all been there on this one. Oh my goodness. So I'd say it's not useful to beat yourself up. Beating yourself up freezes you. So we want to change. Great. Just say, well, that makes sense. I've been looking for something to occupy my kid. That makes total sense. And now I'm actually aware that I don't love that pattern. How amazing of me that I'm even thinking about this and willing to see that and asking questions.

I'm a pretty awesome parent. So I would start there because then we can say, okay, what is at the core from a first principles way, what's going on? What does that mean my kid occupying themselves without screens? Well, what the issue I think with screens are, especially for young kids, is the screens are doing the work. The truth is to be kind of successful, quote, successful at independent play, kids need to do the work. They have to be creative. They have to try things. They have to watch their block tower fall five times and build it a sixth time. And all of a sudden, the sixth time, and you're like, wow, I just cooked dinner, right? Because my kid was able to do that. So what are we getting to the core of? And to me, this is the most important skill I think about with my own kids, and I like to teach parents to do with

their kids, is what I call frustration tolerance. Our ability to tolerate frustration is massively predictive of our ability to like function in the real world because life is frustrating. So what I would say to do as a very practical starting point is commit to the amount of screen time, if any, you and your home feel comfortable with. Now, this is not watch what we say, oh, but if I change it, my kid's going to be upset. No, no, no, no, no. You're not in your kid's head. You're in your head because you're the pilot. So commit to that at some amount of time. Okay. Then no, step two, my kid is not going to be happy with it. They're not going to feel good. That's okay. My job is not to keep my kid happy. It's to keep my kids safe. And you can start building your kid's frustration tolerance in those moments. Your kid is upset that they can't get screen time. Oh, you really wish you could get it. Sweetie, I know that's a change. You're a kid who has so much creativity

and problem solving inside of you. And I know you're going to be able to bring that out. It's so important to share those words because when we can tolerate our kids' frustration, they learn to tolerate their own frustration. As a last step, I would say independent play is a skill. It's like any other skill. We don't expect our kids to swim when we give them swimming lessons. It's a skill. And there's so many different resources out there. We talk about it at Good Inside, but I have to plug Lizzie Assa, the workspace for children. She's expert at independent play and how you start with a small amount of things, how you scaffold it. First year kid plays independently, I'm not joking, 15 seconds. Amazing. Then 30. And that's the skill that keeps on giving so

a parent can have free time. Yeah, 100%. But Gen X certainly had a tech babysitter back in the day, which was television, right? And I watched a lot of television, for example. And they called it the boob tube, and I think I'm quite smart, right? I don't think it hindered me at all. And, of course, that's the pushback on you and John is that it's not as bad as people think. I do think it's a problem because it's gotten worse because I remember one moment with one of my sons. He was looking at the phone, and he goes, just a second, Mom. When I'm done, I said, it's endless. I said, you don't understand. There's no bottom to this, to the Internet.

There was an end to Gilligan's Isles, right? There was an end, and interestingly, there's a story I actually had to attend to and follow. And it was on a TV when I was in a room where my body was then a little more able also to notice things around me. So this was one thing in my environment, right? As our screens have gotten smaller and our aperture has therefore also gotten smaller. And the things on the screen change rapidly, have no storyline. My world is getting smaller. And I am expecting myself to do less and less and less to get more and more and more stimulation. Yes, that's absolutely true.

I think that's where the difference lies. And again, I just want to say, like, I feel very hopeful about this because, again, I actually think the more palpable concrete thing for parents, although it's like a shift in the mindset, is, oh, wait, the thing I have to work on is not just how much screen time I give my kid. It's, again, like, as I become a sturdier leader, as I learn what a real boundary is, and I'm happy to talk about that because I think we have a definition that is wrong about boundaries usually.

And then I validate my kids' feelings. I help them sit with feelings, not exit feelings. Huge difference. Wait, not only am I going to feel better about my screen palsy, I'm going to see my kid succeed in school. I'm going to see them get along with their siblings better. They're not going to have as many meltdowns. Like, oh my goodness, the benefits are everywhere. I find that very, very hopeful. Do you give general advice to parents about screen time and what rules do you have? Yeah, you know, again, I, every family is so different. And so like, I'm mindful of sharing the process I think about rather than one guideline as if I know all the details of that. That feels very bold of me. And it's just like not my style to be so assuming. So I think about kids' minds working more than toys and screens work. And at any moment, I like to tell parents, you can change your mind. Not part of my language. Not to be an asshole.

Not to show your kid who's boss. Because you love your kid and you want to protect them. And your kid isn't going to cheer you on. And your kid deep down, and I used to work with teens who, oh my goodness, did they bring this to light. Your kid knows whether you're protecting them or you're avoiding things. And I promise you, your kid at any age wants to be protected even though they will never say that to your face. They do. I turn off my kid's Snapchat when he's using it to go meet girls.

I found him on the Snapchat app, and I knew where he was. And I texted him. I go, I know just where you are, you idiot. I'm like, really? Like, you're coming home. And he wrote me a text back then. I'll never forget. I read it at his wedding.

And it said he was meeting a girl. You know, he was like 15 or something like that. And he goes, and it was like 2 in the morning. And he goes, sometime it's like two in the morning. And he goes, sometime it's going to be like that, chief. It makes me laugh ever since. Sometime it's going to be like that, chief. Anyway, speaking of social media, I spend a lot of time dealing with social media people, obviously, but covering it since the beginning. But it's one of the biggest concerns that parents and lawmakers have. So we got two questions on this. I'd like to play them back to back because I think the teen issue is actually more pronounced than anything else.

People have a lot more control of younger kids than older ones. This is Brian from Atlanta. First one. Social media has come under fire in the past few years for its potentially toxic effects on teens, especially girls. Dr. Becky, how do you think about the tension between disallowing social media use and potentially excluding your child from real social connections and allowing social media use and risking the damage we're learning it can do? Is it better to disallow, perhaps like drugs or alcohol, or allow but with safety checks? Is social isolation a greater risk

than anxiety or depression? All right, and this is the second one. My name is Patrick. I am the dad to two wonderful little boys who are 13 and 11. They are both on the autism spectrum, and YouTube has in a lot of ways been a very helpful tool, especially as it has helped language development. My younger son has such a sharp and hilarious sense of humor. And he and his older brother really use that as their kind of main form of entertainment these days with YouTube personalities. Who would have guessed that we would have to use a phrase like that? But here we are. Anyway, my question is, as I'm around sometimes and I hear something that they are watching, I ask them to pivot.

You see what I did there, Kara? I ask them to move and maybe find something different that is more age appropriate. But algorithmically, what sorts of things should I be paying attention to? Because I know how quickly these things can go sideways. Again, I think these are two extremes. And I guess I'm of the belief there's always a better option than two extremes. Yeah. And so I would look at something a little in the middle. And again, I think this is this like kind of purgatory land we live in. Okay, so people have it. There's a very real risk to my kid, especially they're kind of part of that group. They're social. That is real. Social media's risk is real. So I actually think this is about

the how more than the exact what. I'm a pragmatist. What I say to someone, it's so bad, so you have to, you know, leave your kid out. I wouldn't. I just don't think that's practical in day-to-day life. What I would do that's kind of that middle ground is I'd say to my kid, hey, look, I just want to be honest with you. This is a real conundrum. Your friends are on social media. I know that people are invited to things. People are talking about things that live there. And it's very real, especially at your age to be left out of that. I take that seriously. Here's something else I know. Separate from the social inclusion aspect, a lot of aspects of this are really dangerous for you. Like they're legitimately dangerous to your self-concept, to your self-esteem, to how you see the world. I take that

very seriously. And so I have an idea and I want to try it for the next two weeks. And I also want to look at our calendar and kind of put some checks in. They're like literal meetings where I might look at it with you. I want to talk to you. You're never going to be in trouble. In fact, I see this as a partnership between us. And at the end of those two weeks, I honestly don't know exactly. It might be a new policy. It might be different. It might be taken away. Again, my job is to make decisions that I truly believe are best for you, even when you're not short-term happy. And I take that so seriously because I actually love you that much. So let's money through this together. And to me, whatever you say next about the how long or, and I think, yes, the parental controls need to be there. I trust that process. You know, you're making it clear on their team. You're

making it clear you still make the final decision and you still care about them. I think that's going to land pretty well for a kid. And so that's what I could see doing. When I think when it comes to the YouTube question, that's something, you know, I think what I hear in the person asking the question, I could be reading it wrong. But what I'm hearing is that the parent doesn't feel great about the YouTube consumption. And I think we just undervalue, like, I'm aware of that. So that's something to that. when my son was watching them was my issue. I had the issue with YouTube, not him. But I think one of the things parents do is they sort of throw up their hands and act like they can't watch and see what happens themselves. So let me ask you, I just did an interview with Surgeon General Vivek Murthy. What do you think about his warning label? I felt it was a stunt. I think we should be actual, have like privacy rules and child safety and pass actual laws. But do you think it's helpful? I mean, I think John did, but I don't know. I don't think it you actually have like privacy rules and child safety and pass actual laws. But do you think it's helpful?

I mean, I think John did, but I don't know. I don't think it's not like cigarettes. It's not the same thing. I mean, I think many things are helpful. I feel so passionately about helping parents with boundaries because it helps in a million ways, including this. But by the way, I don't think that's mutually exclusive with wanting real legislation around, you know, protecting children. I think to me, a warning label wouldn't be mutually exclusive with wanting real legislation around, you know, protecting children. I think, to me, a warning label wouldn't be mutually exclusive with legislation. I think they're

both important. What can we do and in what time? But I remember being in an event around this and someone saying, if you were in a toy store and you saw a toy that said, by the way, this toy has a risk of depression, anxiety, loss of sense of self, you'd probably say, oh, I don't know if I'm going to get that toy. And it's not that simple, but I think there's something to that. So I think the idea of a warning label is true. Okay. All right. So it's not just technology. There's some questions from Peter from Howard County, Maryland. So much attention has been focused on smartphones falling into adolescents' hands, and deservedly so. but I have witnessed in my

son's school system a detail which has been overlooked, and that is the assignment of school technology to each student, aka Chromebooks. These Chromebooks were handed out during the pandemic to keep education going, and they've remained. While the school system's network security does provide some protection and filtering, it was only this July that YouTube, all social media, and game sites were blocked at the firewall. Teachers do have a workaround for YouTube vids that they want access though. My son has been struggling hard ever since, trying to stay focused in the classroom with the internet at his fingertips, ever since the Chromebook became a critical part of his education. My question is, has there been any effort put forth to providing guidance to school systems

on how to lock down internet access for students so that they can stay focused on only their school work? This has been a big topic. One is removing phones from schools, putting them in those jacket, those little pockets that they put them in. And then, you know, there was a big push to get computers in schools to help kids, you know, develop. And a lot of people feel it's led to more attention deficit disorder. It's been all kinds of things. How do you look at that? Is that how important does a role the school play in this conversation, obviously, with parents talking about it? I mean, to me, a school is like a key player in a kid's ecosystem, you know. And so I think, you know, without a doubt, what happens in school policies, kids, teachers, education, how all of that is kind of run without a doubt is a huge impact on child development. Right. And so, you know, it's probably stretching my area of expertise to talk too much about educational policy and, you know, in schools. And I feel like we used to just think, oh, more technology equals better. And we're aware now with more information.

Wait, we might have reached the tipping point, you know, and how can we self-correct? So I think this parent, I'd say, find other parents, right? Speak to your school about why you might not, you know, want it to be this way anymore. I think our voices collectively matter on an individual basis in your home. I would say also as a pragmatist, okay, well, what can I do to help my kid? And this is actually, again, much bigger than technology. So I think here we want to actually do something different, which I actually kind of refer to as really naming and normalizing the urges our kids have, because urges don't lead to problems. It's urges without coping skills. And actually saying to a kid here, hey, when you're in math today, let's be honest,

you're going to want to look at YouTube. Kids actually love hearing this because they'll say, no, I'm not going to, I promise. And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm just saying you're going to want to. I would too because calculus is sometimes less interesting than the latest sports score. Having said that, let's just picture that moment. Like, do you think it's gonna be right away? Is it five minutes in? Because actually, if we know it's coming, we can actually do some things to prepare because I know you do want to pay attention. It's just really hard. Let's get ready for that moment and talk about what we can do. And then even before big policy change, which I think should happen, we can help our kids shift a little bit. Yeah, it's interesting because there's a theory

about anxiety in phones called nomophobia, where no mobile phone phobia, and it's not just an issue for kids. Plenty of parents are addicted to their phones, as I said. There's fubbing, phone snubbing. It's basically when you're focused on your phone, you ignore people. In Pew Research Study, nearly half of teens said their parents are distracted at least some of the time. Again, I'm surprised it's not higher when they try to talk to them. And so one of the things I think is important is I always talk about my own addiction when I'm talking about theirs. Like, I'm trying to deal with it too. And you talk about scheduling PNP time, play no phone time, but it could go longer with your kids as they get older too.

Without a doubt. In fact, whenever I, you know, talk to parents about talking to their kids about their media use, I think the best lead-in is actually saying to your kid, hey, I want to be honest about something. I'm on my phone more than I need to be. Yes, work happens there. Yes, ordering stuff on Amazon happens there. And I want to be honest. I'm on it more than I need to be. There's something so addictive about it.

It doesn't make me a bad person, but I'm sure at times it's gotten in the way of our relationship. And as I'm working on that, I'd actually be happy for you to call me out on it in moments. And you can do it in a respectful way if, you know, hopefully. But also just I am going to be receptive to that because it's something I want to work on. Like leveling with your kid in that way and actually allowing them to be your teammate too, right, actually sets the stage to be able to say pretty soon after, hey, you know, actually everyone in this family sometimes is on technology. Like what if we, and then you say something, what if we had a phone-free Sunday? What if we had a place we all charged it and actually played a board game? Remember when we used to love to play Ticket to Ride or Quirkle or, you know, I don't know, games that I love?

Remember that? But I know it won't happen if our phones are in the room. So, like, what do you think? Do you think we could do half an hour? Do you think we could set a timer every 10 minutes and we could be like, yay, we did 10 minutes because it's actually hard? And now all of a sudden, you're, again, your same team mindset. We like doing things with people when they're approaching us like we're on the same team. When they're approaching us like something's our problem, you have a phone problem, we feel the need to defend our goodness. And we end up doing that through rejecting their suggestion.

And so it's completely counterproductive. Right. One of the things we did, my son and I did this. He bought a box that locks itself for an hour. He puts it in there. He's like, it's addictive. I'm not going to be able to stop. It's like a cookie.

It's so hard. I like to set timers. I really do. I think set a timer if it's addictive. I'm not going to be able to stop. It's like a cookie. It's so hard. You know? I like to set timers. I really do. I think set a timer if it's new every three minutes just because you're used to some. Well, these boxes, you can't get them open for 10 minutes or whatever. Then even, yeah, even better. Lock yourself out. Then you can't.

One last question about kids in tech, and then I just have a few more questions. This is from Kathy from Rochester. My question is, how will our children ever be okay? I mean, how do we reverse the negative impacts from technology and social media? How will our children ever be okay? That's a very typical thing. Yeah. It is. And what I hear you saying, and I'm going to reframe this because I think the way we ask a question will dictate how helpful an answer would be. I'm going to reframe your question slightly as, Dr. Becky, I'm really worried that our kids won't be okay. Because the how can, it's an improvable question. So I'm really worried. Great. So I'm going to answer that question. What I always like to say to myself is, okay, I'm having that thought. I'm going to ask the thought to step back because I just bet there's another thought, not to overcome it, but there's just another thought I might have that maybe is more hopeful. And I think that thought, Kathy, that I'd plant in you, because I think it's already in you, but I'd bring to light is what is one small thing I can do today, this month, that would feel like positive progress or have some small impact, right?

Let's turn anxiety into agency, right? Yeah, because a lot of these devices do take away agency. Also, one of the things I would say to her is, like, look, they all thought video games would make everyone a serial killer, right, all the while, and it just didn't, right? I think kids adapt much quicker than adults. I think the issues are people 30 to 50, actually, when I think about it. Kids, like my kid took all the social media off and dating apps off his app. He's 22 years old. They make me feel bad, mom. And he did it himself. I think they're a little more attuned than you think, like than we are. I think we're the more addicted groups.

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start your free trial today. Go to constantcontact.ca for your free trial. Constantcontact.ca. I want to finish up talking about your business. When you started Good Insight in 2020, you were a clinical psychologist with practice in Manhattan. Four years later, you're heading with a cut. It's called Parent Advice Juggernaut. It includes a bestselling book, TED Talk, podcast, subscription based online community, content library. You reportedly have 50,000 subscribers around the world. You have 2.8 million followers on Instagram, 210,000 followers on TikTok. Is this what you thought you would do, you know, when you were just, you know, dealing with anxious children of Manhattan, for example?

No. And yet there is a two things are true there, because in a lot of ways, I feel like I'm doing the same thing as I did five years ago. Because I really feel like at my core, I've kind of always been a psychologist disruptor in the parenting space. I don't take for granted the way we're told to raise our kids. I feel like that was wrong. And I've always felt passionate that parents just deserve better. We deserve a better approach that feels better to us and our kids. And I believe, and this is the next stage of what we're doing at Good Inside, parents also deserve a tool.

We have really sophisticated, technologically enabled tools to make so many areas of our life easier. And yet parents still, like, when they don't know what to do, there's like a, well, I don't know. And I feel angry about that. And that activates me. I've always wanted to say to parents, you deserve better. This isn't your fault. You're under-resourced. And now I think what's kind of crazy, I'm like, approach perspective, but gave it to people in a personalized, age-based tool, a true digital product that also has an AI chatbot trained on everything? I've said all of that because that's actually the tool parents need in their modern life to get the help they're looking for. So essentially, Dr. Becky AI. So you got a $10.5 million cash influx this year.

You just launched an app that uses AI. I'd like you to talk about the app and explain how the AI part works because a lot of people are obviously anxious about AI too. Talk about real anxiety. Yeah, AI, that's a part of our app. It's not the whole thing, but it's certainly a part because what I heard from parents is,

I know I want to invest in my kids. I know the language of parenting that comes naturally is just the language that my parents parented me in, and I want to do a different language. But hey, it's kind of like this. We have Duolingo for language learning. Can we have like a Duolingo for parenting language, like for good inside? And I kept hearing that, that they want something bite-sized. They want something simple. Can you just distill it to the thing that's going to make a difference? And when I was talking to a group of our members, I think they were like, well, we wish we had you on speed dial. Like that, that's actually what I want most of the time is just that. And then

I don't have a horrible week because in that moment I turn things around. I feel more hopeful. I have a new perspective and I have an action to take. And I said, okay, well, how can I be on speed dial for like 50, 100, 200, whatever, a million people? I want to do that. Like, I find that to be an honor. And I think AI, like we're kind of living in this amazing moment where, oh, like that is, I can get close to that actually. So how would that work? I mean, people are worried about the idea of AI therapy, although there's a lot of commonality of people's problems. I get that, right? But how does that work as an example of, because people are definitely anxious about AI taking over in that regard rather than a person. Of course. And I guess I don't see it as taking over as much as this amazing technology that can give people something in the moment, you know, to use and shift out of the spiral they're in. So,

give people something in the moment, you know, to use and shift out of the spiral they're in. So, you know, the AI has only been trained on content for me. It's not trained on anything else. It's only things I've said. And so then when a parent describes what's happening, I actually think all parents and kids are completely unique. I do. And I think, again, there's certain principles that guide the way I think through problems. It's why I have such conviction answering any parenting question that comes my way. It's not because I think there's an answer. It's because I tend to have a principled way of thinking through something. And so the AI is really deeply trained in a lot of those core principles. That's something that we actually can train this AI because I have the same kind of, let's say, 10 principles that I think are useful to parents to shift them out of, I'm angry at my kid. My kid feels like they're doing

something. I see my kid as a bad kid to wait. There's another option. And we're seeing in the AI chat, which again is only one part of the app. It's really important to say that, that parents are saying, oh my goodness, like this, this is giving me that groundedness that I would want from like a quick, a minute and a half phone call with you. So it doesn't replace necessarily a real person, a clinician, therapist. Because there's been some bungles with this AI stuff and eating disorder chatbots started offering diet advice, for example. I am very long on humans. Let me just say I'm very long on humans.

In our membership, I think one of the most amazing things right now is we have 60,000 members from over 105 countries, okay? Someone's always awake. And the community forums, the things that happen there in these most human ways, and people also meet live together, and they talk through, oh, I have a deeply feeling kid, you have a deeply feeling kid, oh, we both listen to this podcast, let's talk about it. There are things that happen in community from a sense of belonging and what I call removing the aloneness. The aloneness of our journey is the thing that usually gives us the most problem. And an AI can't remove aloneness in the same way like the magic of community. And so that's also a big part of our app.

That's how it was supposed to be. When I started covering tech, it was AOL, and I met a group of quilters who met online. And I thought, this is the promise of this versus the negatives that were soon to come. And it was a really interesting thing because the community was beautiful online, actually. It was, you know, and not, you know, like the Nazi porn bar that Twitter is, for example. You know, the other day someone said in our community, it was a post. They said, look, I'm just going to put this out there. I've never said this to anyone. There's a lot of days I regret being a parent. I feel like as a parent, it's one of the most vulnerable things you could share to someone.

And I'm picturing someone saying that to the chatbot. And I think we'd have a really great way of talking back to you and helping you understand that thought and what to do. And anyway, in the community, seeing, I can't remember if it was 20 or 40 people just saying, essentially, like, I've had that thought too. It's kind of similar to like AVPing it and like, you know, that's okay. That doesn't make you a bad person and sharing how they deal with it. I mean, I really feel like it was more healing to that person than anything some quote expert AI or human could have said to them. And like that power of community is so real. Dr. Ruckie, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I really do like all your

stuff. It's really interesting because it is true. We do not have, we just start being parents and that's that. You know, we just, we feel bad about it when we get it wrong, but everybody should feel just fine. As long as you are kind to your children and love them, it often turns out well. That's my feeling. Well, thank you so much for having me. This has been great. Thank you. yellow. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher, Kate Verby, and Kaylin Lynch. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda. And our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you are already a sturdy leader. If not, pull up, pull up. You're a pilot for Christ's sake.

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