On with Kara Swisher - The Daily Show's Jordan Klepper Takes on Next-Gen MAGA and the Manosphere

Episode Date: May 15, 2025

Few people have as much knowledge of the MAGAsphere as Jordan Klepper, co-host and correspondent for The Daily Show. Klepper has been covering President Trump and his supporters since the 2016 presidential campaign, from rallies across the country to the steps of the Capitol building on January 6, 2021. One difference that he — and others — have noted between Trump 1.0 and 2.0 is the growing number of young people, especially young men, who are now in the Republican fold. Kara talks to Klepper about his upcoming special, The Daily Show Presents: Jordan Klepper Fingers the Pulse: MAGA: The Next Generation, and what he learned about young conservatives on his tour of college campuses, UFC events, and Spring Break beaches. They discuss "manosphere" influencers such as Charlie Kirk, Andrew Tate, and Joe Rogan, which progressive voices (like Hasan Piker) might break through, and whether Hollywood and comedy are veering to the right. Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on Instagram, TikTok, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You are the fourth Daily Show host I've interviewed. I have a thing for you people. Collect the whole set. Congratulations. I will, yes, exactly. I'm a little offended I'm this low on the totem pole. But if you had to choose one, if you had to pick one, your favorite... Oh, Desi, obviously. Fair enough.

Come on, come on. I'm a lesbian. I have to pick the girl. It's on! Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is The Daily Show's co-host and correspondent, Jordan Klepper. Klepper started on The Daily Show in 2014 and he covered President Trump's 2016 presidential campaign from the trail into the White House. After a brief stint on his own late late show, The Opposition, in which he played right-wing pundit in kind of an Alex Jones info wars spoof, Klepper came back to The Daily Show

as a correspondent in 2019 just in time to finger the pulse of Trump's 2020 re-election campaign. Klepper went to Trump rallies across the country following MAGA supporters from parking lots in Midwestern towns all the way to the steps of the Capitol building on January 6, 2021, and then he got the hell out of there. Since 2023, Klepper has been part of the rotating roster of these daily show hosts manning the desks alongside Jon Stewart. But when Trump decided to run again, Klepper was the obvious choice to go back in the field reuniting with his old MAGA friends.

I really like Jordan Klepper, he makes me laugh. I'm a big fan. I like when he goes out into MAGA land and comes back with these very funny interviews with people on the street as a field reporter. One of the differences that he and others have noted between Trump 1.0 and 2.0 is the growing number of young people, especially young men, who are now in the Republican fold. MAGA, the next generation, is the name of Klepper's latest special, which comes out next week.

I'm looking forward to talking about what he's uncovered in this reporting journey, the trends he's seeing in this younger generation of Trump acolytes, the impact of the Manosphere influencers like Joe Rogan and Charlie Kirk, and the role the conservative comics are playing. Our expert question this week comes from CNN's Ellie Reeve, who has also reported deeply on the negative impact of social media on young men. I also want to talk to Klepper about the future of late night and whether this brand of political satire has the same pull that it used to have. Klepper is funny but also very informed and thinks deeply about The Tribeca Festival is back June 4th through 15th, and it's packed with can't-miss experiences. Catch Sandra Oh on a live podcast recording of The Interview from The New York Times. Cheer on track and field superstar Allison Felix in the documentary She Runs the World. Or catch My Mom Jane, Mariska Hargitay's moving documentary feature directorial

debut about her mother, Hollywood icon Jane Mansfield. There's something for everyone. Get your tickets now at trybeckafilm.com. Why do fintechs like Float choose Visa? As a more trusted, more secure payments network, Visa provides scale, expertise, and innovative payment solutions. Learn more at visa.ca slash fintech. Sue Bird here. I am thrilled to announce I'm launching a brand new show,

Bird's Eye View, the definitive WNBA podcast. Every week we'll dig into the WNBA stories that actually matter, with guest interviews, candid takes, and in-depth analysis from around the league. It's a show I've wanted to make for a while and I'm so excited it's finally happening. Whether you're new to the WNBA or a longtime fan, pull up. This show is for you. Bird's Eye View is coming May 16th. Follow the show on YouTube or wherever you listen to your podcasts. All right, Jordan, thank you for being on On. We have a lot to talk about, including your new special, which I am so excited for.

I do a podcast with Scott Galloway. He talks about the Manosphere all the time. It's coming out next week, but first I want to get your take on some news right now to start with. You're hosting The Daily Show this week. Which of these stories are gaining the most traction? I'm gonna give you a list. The US-China trade deal, the House Republicans proposing custom Medicaid, President Trump's Gulf tour and luxury 747 airliner, the Qataris want him to replace Air Force One with the top buyers of the Trump meme coin winning

the White House dinner or none of the above. And this is all what happened in the last 20 minutes. 20 minutes, exactly. Recall, right? Exactly. We had a morning meeting a few hours ago looking at many of these stories. You know, the up and down stock market to us

were like, that's gonna be an ongoing story for the next 700 years. So we're less eager to jump on board that. For today's show, these images were coming back of his Middle East trip, which Donald Trump going to Saudi Arabia, where he suddenly is treated like the crown prince that he wants to be, surrounded by horses and swords. It's the type of vibe that I think

Trump just feels most at home. Yeah, remember the globe that they were all around that week? Get around the orb. The orb. I globe that they were all around that weird? Get around the orb. The orb. I mean, we're all taking bets right now. If there's an orb, if he's going to touch it, what kind of powers he might get from it.

So we are, we're on orb duty right now. If I step out of this podcast at any point, you know an orb is being touched or close to being touched. So orb would be your hope. Orb would, orb is, you start with orb, then you talk about $400 million Air Force One grift. Yeah. that's up there. And just Trump in the Middle East is something we're keeping an eye on and trying to kind of,

right now we're crafting a show around his big trip. A giant bag of money. How big is his bag of money? Where are you going to put it? All of those things are very important topics. But then an image came out that there's a portable McDonald's truck that is set up in Riyadh right now, which is a comedy show.

For him. All eyes are brought to that. If we are really bringing fast food to Donald Trump, you know, as perhaps a Trojan horse, we want to watch that breathlessly. Yeah, see, this is the great news. This is the news of the day. You know, one of the things that's good for you all, and it's good for comedy, is Trump 2.9 has flood the zone feels like the theme of the administration

at this point. I spoke to The Atlantic's Ashley Parker on the show last week, and she said that she just did the interview with Trump, the long interview. She said that Trump's team admitted its strategy is meant to screw with the press, knowing they won't be able to cover everything. So this is good for the Daily Show, presumably,

with so many stories. Because you don't really care if it's a distraction because the distraction see orb is something you're interested Well, I mean Carol we are still at the Daily Show We're still human beings who have to exist in a world that Donald Trump floods the zone with so our souls are Bombarded with with chaos and stories I think as as a comedy show it is good to have input and things to craft comedy out of, and Trump is never disappointed with that. But there's a pace you have to get used to. You know, Trump has never left the news cycle since he jumped into it 400 years ago. But when he got back in for Trump 2.0, I think there was a shock to the system

and sort of a reminder of the pace that he was moving at. And again, you can feel it. We are a fake news show whose bias is towards finding comedy. We take it very seriously, but we are still trying to, like, find where the humor is, some perspective and a take that we can have. But we understand what other newsrooms are going through, and it is. It's just a constant bombardment where you're attempting to add something to a story

that's ever-changing and also getting more distracting. Like, you think you have a great story, and then he does something else. Like, suddenly, RFK also getting more distracting. Like you think you have a great story and then he does something else. Suddenly RFK jumps into an E. coli pond, for example. Can you believe that? Yes, I can. Yes, I can.

That's not on our comedy show tonight. RFK Jr. is swimming in a sewer pond, a sewer river. Sewer stream. Sewer stream, a creek. A creek of stream, a creek of poop, yeah. A shit creek. Yeahward Stream. Seward Stream. Creek. Creek of stream. Creek of poop. A shit creek.

Yeah, a shit creek. He's swimming in a shit creek. And the comedy show's like, I'm sorry, we already have too much stuff to deal with that going on. Are you not going to get back to the shit creek? I feel like you might be gone. As God is my witness, we will get to shit creek. So one of the things you did say, you know, you're fake news, but a lot of viewers, including

my two older sons, think The Daily Show is the main source of news. And actually you do do a great and entrenching job of analyzing the news. Among many you have gone out into the MAGAverse and you were a field reporter really for Daily Show. You covered President Trump's 2016 campaign and then 2020 and so many MAGA rallies. What's the number of MAGA rallies you've been to? It feels like infinity. I started going in 2015 all the way up until now. So it's, I don't have a number, but it feels like all of them.

And then you also were at the Capitol on January 6th. Working. I was working on January 6th. Although I don't know, maybe I was also insurrectioning if that gets me a pardon and a Fox News job, I'll take it. Yeah. You did take a pen from Nancy Pelosi's office. But then, but it was all over in 2021. You were sitting in an empty parking lot. I want to play this clip from the, into the Magaverse roundup that you did.

So that's it. The Maga rally journey is over. And President Trump's ending is not unlike that of the ancient King Ozymandias. His wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command looking across this vast emptiness that was once his empire. Look on his works, ye mighty and despair!

Ugh. Anyway, I'm just gonna stay here so I can be first in line when the rally start up again in 2023 or when Don Jr. runs in 28. I'll always be here, I guess. This is my life now! Nothing but sand remains. Carol, why did you have to play that?

I had to. That's taking me to a dark spot. I know, it is. It is. But here you are again. That was the point most people had written Trump off. Sand. Sand. Only sand remains or whatever the last line, it is. But here you are again. That was the point. Most people had written Trump off. Sand, sand, only sand remains or whatever the last line of that is. Not to call you a prophet, but you really did think there was a Trump 2.0.

You kind of called it. You know, it was interesting going out after being there January 6th. That felt like, you know, honestly what has become even infuriating is watching the conversations on January 7th, hearing what Lindsey Graham said about that day. And there seemed to be a moment where... enough! ...the world, the left and the right saw something happen

and could admit that they existed in the same plane of reality, and therefore were moving forward beyond it. And so it did, for a moment, feel like, maybe there's a clean break from what this is. And I went to a few events after January 6th, and what was amazing was just how quickly that narrative was shifting on the ground. Yeah.

And that narrative never actually settled as to whether it was Antifa, whether these people were heroes, you know, it became sort of this muddled mess of what's supposedly happening. Just accountability was nowhere to be found, but the narrative kept bouncing around. But it jumped so quick to the point that I think within a month after January 6th, I was like,

oh, this is not settling in a way that we are going to regard it as history and move on and or learn from it. This is still being churned up in a way where the people who have seen this are creating their own realities out of it. This is not dying. It's being birth anew. Because Kevin McCarthy was down there pretty quickly. I mean, he went down, yeah, like a few weeks later, he went down. Were you surprised by that?

Again, I'm rarely surprised by any of this. I think the part of me that has a modicum of surprise, it's the 14-year-old me that has a little bit of hope for American institutions and the things that I was taught that are better angels come through and they're moving on some sort of arc. And again, in that moment in January 6, I was like, oh, perhaps this is us moving beyond that. Now we're looking at 2.0.

And yeah, the cynicism has stayed within me. I've watched these conversations shift. They didn't want to leave the story. You know, I remember my grandmother, she liked the stories, right? She was watching soap operas. But to to me he's building a narrative, right? And that's kind of is like a movie or a TV show or something like that, which is good at But it feels like you were preparing for Trump 2.0 in 2022. You took your Jordan Klepper fingers the pulse, which is the best

I think production name Reporting to Hungary for the special ERO hosted and produced, President Trump obviously buddied up to Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán in the first term. The European Parliament had declared Hungary to be an autocracy. Talk about why you wanted to go there and what was your biggest takeaway from that trip? Because you were still going, you were still searching for your MAGA at that time. Yeah, at that time, you know, Orban, feels like quite some time ago, but Orban was being welcome to CPAC, which again, you know, the Overton window keeps nudging over. And a year before that, the idea of Viktor Orban being supported and lauded in the conservative

movement was ridiculous. And then suddenly Orban was being talked about at CPAC. And so we went to CPAC and we talked to people about it and this authoritarian rule and how people saw what was happening in Hungary. And it felt for us like the writing's on the wall. This is where the conservative movement is heading. These are the people they're putting up on their pedestals. There's no surprise because people have been talking about what they want for years. And if at CPAC they're saying, this is the guy, this is what we want Donald Trump to do, then it's like, well, let's go see

what Victor Orban is doing. It's right there. Also, let's be honest, Budapest, lovely city. They shoot a lot of wonderful films there. So like, you know, I'm half looking for a great vacation as well. Much goulash, yeah. Four seasons Budapest, you gotta spend time there.

It's really, it's where you meet all the big swing and dick Hollywood execs there. You dabble in autocracy and then you hang out with the cast and crew of Jack Ryan. Right, that's right. That's right. They film there. That's literally what it is. So do you, what did you imagine after going to Hungary was going to happen here? And how do you assess the situation right now? I think what was really interesting to see was the way in which they controlled the public

education there. The liberal school that had been shifted and moved and frankly left and went to Vienna. I think there was so much that I noticed on the ground that was like, oh, this... My dark vision of what an autocracy looks like is perhaps some caricature of old Russia. Or you go there and everything is shut down, you have no access to anything. And I was like, oh no, this feels like a European city. I understand how that still works as a city.

I also understand how people come in and out of this city that feels like a normal American city as well. But then I'm like, oh, so what happened to the universities and the professors there? And you hear the limitations they had, partially put on by the government But also partially by the government shutting things down so that they had to move and that they went to Austria at that time I think talking again to people who are part of the LGBTQ community there

Like things started to shut down in a way that we quickly saw happening over here as well It was like oh the language starts to get changed Oh the Constitution starts to get written so that the language is changed. Or suddenly the rights that you have have now been stripped away from you. And so it's not as if you are in jail right now, but suddenly you have a child or you're in the middle of an adoption process. And suddenly that has now ended.

And now you suddenly feel, now you're getting discriminated against at your job because the writing has shifted. And now the media, is the media, can they not say anything? No, they can be critical of Orban. Who can? That guy, that one guy. You're the only guy who has a platform to talk.

And because of the state-run media, state-funded media, it suddenly, it encompasses everything people interact with and see. And so then when we talk to the person who was running against Viktor Orban, and he couldn't get a microphone in front of him to get his message out. And so you saw a deadening of the culture. Do you see that happening here? As you come back here,

you started doing this next generation, this special, it's called MAGA, the next generation. It's a special coming out next week. Did you anticipate or see that that's happening here? Yes. I mean, I do think in terms of how the language is certainly being shifted, again, we talked to, we mentioned the Overton window here. It's like, oh, we're getting more and more comfortable with the land grab that Donald Trump has taken. With this special, you know, what we were seeing with electoral results was so many young kids kind of leaning right, especially this manosphere, this bro world.

And so for us it was, it was like, oh wow, are people buying into this more than they were before? Is this suddenly cool? Is this hip? Is this what the magic Trump has pulled? And the cynic in me thought I would find just hands down people who are mini Marco Rubio's, mini Ted Cruz's, mini Donald Trump's,

in 18 year old form. And there were elements of it, and there was conservativism that was there. I think what I often see at Trump rallies was people are drawn to the tribalism, the community that is there, the identity that they get. The fun. It's fun, it's fun.

That was really interesting. So the impetus for doing it was to find out. Like, and did you have a goal going in to change their minds or what was, or just to see? It was mostly to see, yeah. I mean, I feel like when I go to the Trump rallies, it's just a plethora of old people hypocrisy. And so to hear that suddenly college kids think Charlie Kirk is cool is a question. And the larger question I had is like, is there a true conservative ideology embedded in these 18 year olds?

Is that what there is? Are they drawn to an ideology of morality that is there? Or is it just for clicks? And as you go in there, like I was impressed with the empathy and humanity of the 18 year olds that I talked to. I thought they would be cynical and potentially cruel. And when I realized the cruelty is something you learn,

it's something that's embedded by these older folks who are manipulating that space. So when I went to Texas A&M and I talked to people, very conservative school, very religious school, and they have, many of the people I talked to had, you know, conservative leanings, but they were very open. They were very open to hear what people had to say. And Charlie Kirk comes on campus and he's famous. They've seen him online, and on TikTok, he gets clicks.

And he shows up, and it's a thing. He throws out a bunch of hats. People grab the hats, they put on the hats, everybody's wearing Trump hats. And you're like, it's not that you don't have conservative leanings. But I see you right now, and I see you creating an identity for yourself based around a free hat,

based around somebody who gets attention, which for an 18 year old Attention is the the king of all kings Yeah, what I mean influencer and you find somebody who finds success in that and there's nobody in a liberal space Who's speaking to you? And so I see you starting to to graft onto that persona But what I don't see is is is a cruelty or a meanness that old me was projecting onto you I see an openness. I see somebody who doesn't know.

When you were pushing them, they're like, oh yeah, good point. I mean, it wasn't sort of the anger thing. Well, yeah, you're right. More often than not, when I asked them why they were seeking out Charlie Kirk, they're like, he explained things so well. He's so interesting.

He thinks about stuff. He gives you answers. You're curious. I loved Christopher Hitchens back in the day, and I loved his contrarian nature. I loved that he was articulate. I don't think I loved his politics, but I was compelled by an articulate voice that these kids earnestly crave. He has answers, right?

He has answers to very complex. Life is complex, and if you could give a short answer or something easy. And it's also put to you in a question, which I think is really interesting. I was talking to Charlemagne Godd, who's often on the Daily Show, and last night he was making a really good point. It's like the problem with the media is they ask the question, is it unconstitutional to take the plane? Like they're asking it like a question so that puts it in the minds of people that is

that we should ask that question. When in fact the answer is, yes, it fucking is it fucking is like stop like like why are we doing that and so these kids are looking for certainty I would imagine they are looking for certainty they want somebody to tell them how to find like where I have empathy it's hard to leave college and find your identity find a job find purpose and this person who you know is famous comes to your campus and they tell you I have the answer, take these tools, they glom onto them. Also there's a trick that happened. Again, when we're at this turning point event, I thought it was just about these people,

they're learning conservative ideology because Laura Trump was there, Charlie Kirk was there and they're talking about conservative talking points, but they're also debating people. The point of those things is that it's an open debate for college students. And what ends up happening is like, on its surface, I love that there's debates happening. I think there should be debates happening on campuses. It's great that that's happening and you don't have to agree with everybody. But the people who went there, they're going there to debate, but it's a performance of liberal hyperbole and anger, where there's a lot of people who show up

who are on the left side of things, who are angry and want to engage with Charlie Kirk, and they line up and they fight Charlie Kirk, and they're 18 or 19, and they're upset, and they've been waiting in line for 40 minutes, and they get into screaming match with Charlie Kirk, and he's 31, and he's calm, and he's relaxed, and he talks to them, and then when I talk

to the people who watch that, I ask them, what do you think? They're like, you know, I've been hearing about how the left are just these lunatics who are so outraged. And I mean, I didn't think it was true. And then I saw it. And you're like, oh, that's part of what's happening on this campus. Right. They're creating a situation.

It's a performance of liberal outrage that they've created so the campus can see it and build their ideology against it. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Trinet. Trinet's full range of HR solutions were built for purpose-driven companies such as Zymo Research whose focus on biomedical innovations have advanced the early diagnosis and prevention of disease with a goal to positively impact human lives and deliver the next generation of health care. And when they needed a provider of HR solutions to

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Check out virginatlantic.com for your next trip to London and beyond and see for yourself how traveling for business can always be a pleasure. So two years ago, you did a long story short on the Daily Show about Andrew Tay and the lack of male role models for young on. This is something my pivot co-host Scott Galloway talks often about. We talk about it on the show. He's coming out with a book on it. And one of the things he's arguing is that you just need different

male influences, right? That the right has managed to create a whole bunch of characters, sort of action figures, and the ones on the left aren't very good or interesting or articulate enough. So do you see any difference between influencers like Andrew Tate, political activists like Charlie Kirk or Joe Rogan, and how they're perceived by this generation? I do think the shine is off a lot of them, I have to say. I think for some reason you can feel it. Are they fundamentally the same or different with slightly different colors essentially? I think there's a lot of, I think those are all very different types of influences in

that sphere. I think you see the success of Joe Rogan is that people want, people are curious. I talk to a lot of young men who have time, have three hours in the day that they want to listen to somebody talk to, they want Joe Rogan to talk to a conspiracy theorist, but also Joe Rogan will talk to a beekeeper for three hours. And there's a 25 year old dude who's like, yeah, I want... I want to hear about macros. Yeah.

I think Andrew Tate is pitching the old cars, sex, power. He's pitching that to 12-year-olds. And I think you have a lot of stunted men who are looking for attention. And I think kids are getting it early on, so I see what they're drawn to as well You know more often than not what I understand the appeal here is they preach certainty they preach curiosity And they are they look like strong successful men that when you are a young you know malleable boy you're drawn to I Spent a little time this special with the Cassand piker who I thought was yeah I was gonna ask you about them the New York Times has called him a progressive mind and a body made for the Manosphere.

Talk a little bit about that interview. Well, I mean, it's... I think liberal media suddenly loved Hassan Piker because he is a Twitch streamer. He has like 2.8 million followers. He talks about progressive policies for eight hours a day, but he also talks about culture and life. He gets clicks also because he works out in his backyard. He's got anime pictures in his background.

And when I spent some time with him, I really liked about his sign. He was a very authentic person. And he felt like a very different generation than me. As somebody who understands what progressives in their 40s feel like, what the guardrails are, and the ways in which you should take certain topics seriously and how you should askew other topics.

Like, some bikers are like, no, I work out. I like working out. I like to post videos about working out. I also like to fight the billionaire class and talk about socialism. And then I like to talk about anime. And it's a much more authentic, casual conversation. And the thing that resonated most with me is when I talked to him, I was like, you know, the media cycle is so exhausting right now. How do you stop from going crazy? And I'm paraphrasing him, but he mentioned, like, you know, the media cycle is so exhausting right now. How do you stop from going crazy? And I'm paraphrasing him, but he mentioned like, you know, he makes

as much noise about the things he cares about as he can. And then he focuses on self-improvement. He's like, it's the thing you can control. And the left gets so weird about like, it's about image, it's about this. And that's toxic masculinity. It's like, no, dude, that's a guy like doing pushups who feels good about himself. Right, right. And for a 24 year old who's like, man, what can I control that I can feel good about? Give me a hero's journey, even the tiniest hero's journey.

What do you got for me? He's also getting through his messages via that, right? Macros and also Elon Musk sucks. Yeah. Right, and he's taking your shit, macros, and also Elon Musk, you know what I mean? I only say macros because my 20-year-old son talks about macros all the fucking time. Well, he's able to connect with the things kids are talking about.

But beyond that, it's fun. It's easy on the left for people to say, well, look at these videos of cars and these hyper-masculine traits that have, they can go awry. But you have an 18-year-old who's looking to attach something that feels fun and playful and somebody who can speak authentically about traditionally masculine things that isn't boxed in by an idea that I have to be the perfect version of this.

But then like, it can be complicated. Why aren't more progressive voices getting that kind of traction among young male audiences? Like Piker, for example, why aren't there more of them? Because I would assume they could be just as appealing and cool, just as, well, I don't think Charlie Kirk is cool, but I get the point you're making. Yeah, I mean, I think I laugh at it.

He's really uncool. He's, like, deeply uncool. Well, that's what's so interesting. You see, it's not as if the right is killing it in this sphere. If Charlie Kirk is cool, there is space for other people to step in and be cool. Right, right. It's out there. I think I made the joke that Keanu Reeves

It's like the ultimate cool like progressive cool If somebody could be respectful and interesting and literally be yeah, the matrix is the one right? I think it's interacting in those spheres I think there's a misunderstanding when people talk about who's the Joe Rogan of the left and I think there's a misunderstanding that Joe Rogan is Mostly a cultural commentator who kind of talks about politics. I'm like, the Joe Rogan of the left is more like Travis Kelsey than anybody else. It's like, it's being able to engage in a space where your life isn't defined around one political ideology, but that you're interested in culture and you're comfortable in who you are, and that exudes itself to something else.

So in your Intertrate piece, you said the biggest goal was not to end up interviewing your own son at a MAGA rally someday. Has it changed the way you think about politics with your son talking about it with your son etc.? Yes I mean my son is... How old is he? He's four and a half. Okay. So we are we talk very little politics. So it's mostly Moana too at this point. We talk Moana too and he's a big Jill Stein guy so I don't want to get into that with him. Paw Patrol, where you can talk about copaganda. So I was going to say, don't even get into Paw Patrol. I fucking hate Paw Patrol.

Oh my god, the institutionalized, you know, back the blue methodology that's inside that? Copaganda. My young son loves it. My three-year-old loves Paw Patrol. And my older son, Gwokbwani, goes, copaganda. And I'm like, well, they do nice things for the people of the town. This is, but I think that's also, you've pinpointed the crux of where, like, progressivism is

having a really hard time right now. Because I know people who, like, push that out and they won't watch Paw Patrol because of what is back behind it and you're also like, but guys, you're gonna have to be able, it's not just bluey. Sometimes the left gets a bluey and it's lovely and it's great and it's perfect. It's able to deal with humanity in these other ways. But the left has to open up their circle so it's not just Bluey, it's also Paw Patrol.

Maybe a Blippi sneaks in there as well. Like, the world is complicated. So, did this... were you worried about your son being in a Maga rally? Yes, well, I mean... Of the future. Yes. In the sense that, I mean, when you have a child in this weird culture we're in right now, everything is filtered through that of like, what do I want to expose my kid to?

How can I be useful within this environment? How can he be safe, but also be tough in this space? Or not taken in. Yeah, and not be gullible. And I mean, I'm like, I'm a Luddite at heart, and so I see what's happening here. For this special, I got on TikTok for the first time, and my mind is blown. The first time?

First time. OK. What's in your feed? I'm curious, since you've never been there. We did, there was a study that was done last year that essentially created a blank 16-year-old, and within like 20 minutes or so, suddenly anti-feminist, toxic masculinity

all started feeding in there. And so we were like, let's try this out. What does it actually look like if you just create 16-year-old male, pop it on, what starts coming at you? And very quickly, some right-wing stuff started to pop into that algorithm. But even top line for me was just the algorithm, the interface itself was so discombobulating.

It was so aggressive. It scrambled my mind in a way that- Look at this, look at this, look at this. Yeah, it numbed me to- You can't look away, actually. You can't look away. And also you can't emotionally experience anything. I think above all, all of the social media stuff,

it takes you away from actually being with yourself. And you realize, you talk to an 18 year old, if they're with themselves and figure out what they think about, they got interesting, complicated, open ideas. If you put a screen in front of their face that says, don't think about, don't think about, don't think about it, then all they're doing is reflecting the thing that's on the screen the most. And more often than not, it's right-wingers who get in

that space or it's corporations who are just like, you need this loud, loud materialism, capitalism. That's what you're reflecting back at the world. So it's less that we're creating kids who are cruel with bad intentions. We're creating reflections of the media that we're shoving down their throat, and that, that in and of itself is toxic.

So last question is, when you were doing this, did you think the Charlie Kirk's rules were being effective by being there? And is there any, besides Hassan, is there any counterpoint to what the Democrats could do? Do you think the left has gotten the message of humor and certainty and different messaging? I think they are focused testing this message. They feel really optimistic about learning about this message and they will talk to other people and put them in the ring in a way that they

Can effectively articulate this message. Yeah, I think they I think they're really looking hard at this Yeah, I mean when I look at who will who will make a dent here? Yeah, like Charlie Kirk is making a dent. He's on campus love him or hate him He feels authentic to these kids and he also knows how to talk to them on the device that they talk to. I think what the Democrats are looking for, they're not gonna create in the lab. And it's not gonna have a prescribed political ideology.

It might be more moderate than people think. It might be more left than people think, but it's gonna feel authentic. That's what- It seems like AOC and Bernie show is kind of interesting. I think that's the one version where you're like, AOC and Bernie resonate with people when they show up. And they are very-

Even if you don't like them. Even if you don't like them, you believe them. Bernie, again, Bernie's not Hassan Piker. Hassan Piker really likes Bernie Sanders. And they're both authentic in very different ways, but they're both authentic. And so I think the left has space for that. And quite frankly, they keep thinking,

who can be in a podcast to do that? A podcast is a very revealing place. Joe Rogan talks for three hours. People talk for a long amount of time. They expose who they are. And I think if they engage in places where they are more open, more authentic, more curious, like I think voices and faces will resonate

with a younger generation, but you're not gonna be able to plan it. You're just gonna have to leave space for it to occur. We'll be back in a minute. So every week we get a question from an outside expert and we've got a great one for you. Hi, I'm Ellie Reeve, CNN correspondent and author of Black Pill, a book about how the darkest corners of the internet took over American politics.

Jordan, you and I have covered the same events and at least once interviewed the same person. And I think that's because we're both drawn to the absurd that's also consequential. And so I'm wondering what you think of a story I'm working on now which is about this new class of right-wing comedians who are reaching millions of young men through their podcasts on YouTube. When I was young it was all about Jon Stewart, the Daily Show was offering these steering indictments of the Bush administration and there was this idea that conservatives just weren't funny. And now that's totally changed. So I'm wondering what you think about that

and whether it's hard for you to reach young men today. That is a great question. I mean, I think comedy... To me, I've always found resonance in people, in the political space. The George Carlins, the Lenny Brusses, the John Stewart's, who like call out bullshit where they see it and poke holes at those in power.

They're tickling the feet of the giants, if you will. And so there's space on the left and the right. And I think there's good comedians who are able to work in both of those spaces and not be pigeonholed into one left or right. Right-wing comedians, there's of course space for people to connect. Again, I think it's, what I always say is like the job

of a comedian is to read the room and speak to what that room is. Our rooms are getting more and more one-sided. And so I think there are right-wing rooms that people speak within that. I think an issue I always have is sometimes they talk about like these truth-tellers and are right-wing rooms that people speak within that. I think an issue I always have is sometimes they talk about like these truth-tellers and these right-wingers and these podcast bros.

Bold truth-tellers. These bold truth-tellers. Who are willing to say what they want to say, you know? And they don't have to be tied down. They're not these lefty libs. So like, yeah, they will, fuck it. There's no constraints. And then they have Elon Musk on and kiss his ass.

That's correct. Or Donald Trump on and just compliment him and not push him. And you can do whatever you want in this podcast space or this comedy space. But in some ways, where I think right-wing comedy to me has not appealed to me, is that you are praising the actions of cruelty as opposed to calling out those in power and perhaps finding levity in the people who are fighting back against them. I think if you're always looking at the victims of the cruelty as the punch lines of your jokes, to me that's a comedic space that is less appealing.

There seems to be right now this Trump pivot, Tim Allen's new sitcom Shifting Gears has become a surprise hit. He plays essentially Archie Bunker, which used to exist, by the way. Everyone's like, oh, he's winning with an Archie Bunker. I'm like, Archie Bunker was a hit, you know, for lots of reasons. Live cop shows are coming back. A&E is bringing back Duck Dynasty. Thank God. The conservatives are calling it a course correction. Hollywood says they want to appeal to fly over America. What do you think about this? Is there an opposite impact? Was there is it a course correction? And do you think that it will have an impact on the entertainment

business at all? It's interesting here. Like, I think there are always audiences in different corners. The Tim Allen Show is an interesting one because so Tim Allen is my mom's cousin. Oh. He was my dad's college roommate. And that's why my parents met. What? So. Okay, wow. So Tim Allen is a part of my life.

I used to see cousin Tim, Uncle Tim at Thanksgiving's when he would come back into Detroit. So I know Tim. This was the Santa Claus phase? This is Santa Claus phase. Tim was on Home Improvement, he did Santa Claus, and Tim is a lovely guy. Libertarian beliefs. When we meet now and see each other, we usually fight over politics in a lovely, comedian, funny way.

And I get it. And as somebody who knows Tim, and somebody who's on the Daily Show, the Progressive Show, people come up to me and they'll talk about that Tim Allen show. And I'm like, here's what's complicated about it. Tim Allen is a lovely, funny, nice guy. He's not a cruel guy. He's a funny guy. He's got libertarian views. He likes to be a contrarian. He likes to push buttons.

And I know he's doing a show that might not appeal to you because he's playing in that lane. But I know it plays to a lot of people, and I get what is appealing about it. And I think in a... in an America that I want to live in, that these shows exist with other shows in ways that are a softening towards these people who have political beliefs that are outside our own, but that

doesn't define who they are completely. And so, yes, am I afraid sometimes that the entertainment industry will course correct in a way that they are trying to appease the Trump administration? Yeah. I think that's something that is worrisome to me. And when we talked about seeing what's happening in other countries, it's like, oh yeah, I think, is there a finger that can be put on the scale? Totally could be. And that is worrisome and scary as shit. But I'm also not like knee-jerk upset about a proliferation of other types of shows that have

different audiences. Because I think that is also important in the weirdness of what Hollywood is right now. Like there's a lot of space for different types of stories and some are gonna work and some are not. And I think we're gonna test that out in the next coming year. Well, you see something like sinners, which is all about racism.

It is, it really is. And it's a huge hit. It's like, it depends. So a lot of the debate of how liberals, how Democrats in particular in Washington around the country respond to Trump, you said that the country would experience a crisis of certainty and you gave a TED Talk on this in 2023, a convenience take on how to save democracy. I want to play a clip.

It's hard to give any ground when you can't agree that the earth you stand on is either round or flat. But, but perhaps a gesture of understanding, if not towards irrefutable facts, but to your own uncertainty, is a step towards progress. I think the phrase, I don't know, invites a softening. And the ground is too hard to grow much of anything right now. What I think, in order for American democracy to survive,

we need a culture of vulnerability, or at least a space in that culture for vulnerability. The good news is being wrong is sexy. Again, that was in 2023 before Trump won re-election. You've said that the big reason it's so hard to debate or even talk to MAGA people, although you do a lot of that, is that MAGA has become the identity, the certainty, no matter how many facts you put on the table, they believe Trump and his acolytes.

So do you think making concessions showing the vulnerability is the answer or is it kind of a suicide mission for liberals when you're dealing with people on the other side for whom any concession is non-negotiable? I'm thinking of my mother this morning, for example, about trans fencers. Oh, which I'm sure is an issue that's very important to her and has been for years and years. Extremely, she's 92 and it's gonna affect her

when she's, wait, just a second, anyway, go ahead. I mean, you know what, people often ask, are you able to change people's minds when you go do daily show pieces? That's not the intention of those pieces. And the answer is no, more often not because there's a camera there and it invites people to put on a shield and be right and win an argument with their certainty and their identity. But the interesting

moments to me are the moments off-camera where you're actually able to show some of the things you don't know. I did a podcast with Governor John Kasich, and the most interesting moments to me were our phone calls that were not recorded, where we were much more revealing than the things we were unsure about and the political ideas we had that we hadn't fully understood,

and we're open for the ability to change and feel something different about it. Who else is doing that well, say, in the Democratic Party? Because the Democratic Party justifiably has an image of being humorless, right? Sure. In some fashion. I mean, I haven't listened to much of the Gavin Newsom podcast where he's inviting people on.

I think what is dangerous about an idea there, there's something I really like about that idea. But I think you speak to something that's like, oh, it's one thing to come to something and say, like, I'm going to show you my vulnerability. And the other person will be like, gotcha, bitch. Yeah, right. That tends to be what happens in these situations, where

the left reveals an opening and the right takes it, as opposed to both people meeting. And the people he's selected, Charlie Kirk, for example, know that. They're there for the dunk, not for anything else. I think you have to be careful. For politics, I don't have the answer. I don't know how to invite that vulnerability into that culture to allow people to meet on the same page. I don't think it tends to happen in front

of cameras or in front of audiences because I think that's too dangerous. Right. Who do you see as funny though? Who do you see as someone who's very accessible? Anybody? On the left? On the left. Who is funny on the left like in the political sphere? Boy who is funny. I mean, I will say who's most, like, I think AOC and Bernie are compelling in themselves, and I like that. I spent some time with Wes Moore, who I thought was really, really impressive and interesting. Yes, I just interviewed him. Yeah, I think Wes was great.

I'm a sucker for governors on the left. Again, not from the comedy side necessarily, although there's some real crackerjacks there, but I think like they're people who got shit done in their states and are able to talk in ways that are less like partisan. I feel like when I spend time with like senators or folks, you see the politics, they're good at politics, but governors are like, we gotta get shit done.

And that to me is super compelling. Do you have a favored governor besides West? Well, as a Michigander, I spent some time with Whitmer, and I like Gretchen Whitmer. Gretch. You like big Gretch. And again, I think Wes Moore was a really impressive, thoughtful person that I like spending a little bit of time

with. He also rapped Bring the Pain by Method Man with me after a show in Chicago. So I've got to give respect for anybody with Wu-Tang love. All right, then. All right, before we go, I want to talk about the future of late night. In 2017, you had your own show, The Opposition, in the 1130 p.m. slot after The Daily Show, in which you played a right-wing pundit character that lasted a year. In 2019, you launched

docu-series Clipper, where you toured the country, talked to people in marginalized communities, veterans, undocumented college students, cannabis entrepreneurs, Mars fanatics, not just Elon. And then you went back to the Daily Show. Talk about what were you hoping to happen there, and how do you like having all of you versus one to become the one, like as you're in Highlander, like there can be only one. Um, it would be really cool if you did a sword fight for it.

Again, Desi would win again. God, you had such Desi love on this show. Well, I'm sorry, she would kick your ass, all of you. She probably would. You'd make fun of her height, and then she'd cut you off at your knees. So what do you think about sharing and where late night's going? It's been on the climb for years. Many have been downsizing, obviously due to a shift in streaming and on demand.

How do you look at where late night is going to stay relevant to this generation? It's kind of the obvious question. Well, I will say, I mean, I love what The Daily Show's doing right now. For me, it's been a blast. We've had so much upheaval and uncertainty in the last few years. Like, we had a pandemic.

We had a writer's strike. We had Trevor leave. We had a year of guest hosts coming in and out. And it kind of created a resiliency in the show as to, like, things are gonna change. You're gonna think it's one way, and it's gonna have to shift. Suddenly, the show has to have to do new hosts every single week for a year to figure out what that was.

And it landed us in a place that has been really fun. I mean, John hired me, and so when John came in, I, you know, it was a mentor of mine. And to get a chance to actually work with John, like, this week, it's incredible. John hosts on Monday. And I'm here. And I talk to John.

And then I'm watching John. I'm learning from John. And then I'm hosting the rest of the week the dream job, to sit behind the desk at The Daily Show and get to talk about this stuff. It's exhausting. And I get to then stop at the end of the week and then somebody else gets to come on.

Desi gets to come on. Some people like Desi more than other people and they make that very obvious in interviews that they do, which I understand and I wanna be open to that. So for people who have their favorites, you're gonna get your favorite the next week. And I think that's- I like all my Daily Show children.

This is, I respect it. But I think honestly, what has been fun about it is it has been a humane way to deal with the Trump deluge in that we all don't go crazy because of it. And I think as an audience, they get the same Daily Show voice with different people with their own perspectives that they bring to it. I also love the fact that I get to go out and do short field pieces and I get to do specials. And I sort of think,

really, what does late night do? Well, The Daily Show does something late night doesn't get to do, which is like, you get a monologue based on what happened that day. You get field pieces where we actually go into the world and talk to people, and those are gonna live as six minute things. You get quick little clips to show the hypocrisy

of the world that is there. I get to do deep dive pieces on Hungary. and so you can watch a special on that. It's like you need to approach this as like, if you got 15 minutes on what happened today, or you want six minutes about what happened to the middle of Pennsylvania, or you wanna watch a big full-on special on Hungarian politics,

like the Daily Show is able to engage in that way. So it's been a wild ride for late night. We've weathered all of the storms and I think we've stumbled into something that I don't think anybody could have sort of pitched as what we thought the the landing point would be but it's allowed us to be to be fresh and and malleable to the weird times we're in. Yeah you also can pull it apart which I think is critical for social media because a lot of your watching is on social media, correct?

I know The Daily Show has found a lot of success in that. And when I talk to anybody who's under 30, they're watching one-minute clips that I've done from the road. If I'm talking to people over 50, they're watching the full episode. And it's like, I'm able to communicate with people in these different ways. So you've got to get savvy at doing that. So I have two more questions. If you were the host host, the only host,

is there something you would do differently? I mean, Jesus Christ, the property I would buy upstate would be unreal. I would finally, I'd get up the Hudson Valley. I would get something just outside Hudson. It would be a nice place. I wouldn't feel regret about it. I'd invest in a liquor company.

I mean, I would be, I'd be the person I thought I could be when I moved to New York. What liquor? Don't say tequila. What liquor? I mean, it'd be a mezcal company, I would be, I'd be the person I thought I could be when I moved to New York. What liquor? Don't say tequila. What liquor? I mean, be it Mezcal Company, I think. Of course, you said tequila, but go ahead. Oh, don't, Eva. What would Desi do? Would she do something better? Probably. A nice cognac? Would that be, would that be, would that be,

would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be,

would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, would that be, There's other voices on the show. Anyway, so what would you do? Tell me one thing, and then I have one last question. One thing. Well, here's the thing that it's tough to do, is to give up going on the road. And so I think that that is what is difficult for me. Is that like, if I were hosting, I would figure out a way, I was trying to do with the opposition,

to be both hosting during the week, but also to be on the road and talk to people where they're at. And so I think that that's something I always like bringing back into The Daily Show. And if that was my full-time job, I don't know how I would do it. But I'd have to spend some time on the road and talk to people where they're at. And so I think that that's something I always like bringing back into The Daily Show. And if that was my full-time job, I don't know how I would do it, but I'd have to spend some time on the road as well.

So last question then, when you think about this special you just made, tell me the one person that really stuck with you in the special, or maybe didn't make it in, who is the one moment where you were like, this is really good, this is something, that's substantive that you're bringing to people. Mm-hmm. That's a great question. We went down to Tampa Bay and I talked to the

young Republicans at Tampa Bay and they had just gone through a little bit of a firestorm because Andra Tate returned from Romania and Andra Tate, the alleged sex trafficker comes back from Romania and the Tampa Bay young Republicans invite him to speak to their group and there was a bit of an outcry from the left and some people on the right who are like what are you doing this guy's a sex trafficker alleged there's terrible videos of him being so misogynist and beating women this is a toxic person, why are you inviting this person to talk to your group? And I sat down with them and I had, to be fair, it's an awkward interaction on the special because when I talked to these men,

their group made a decision for clicks because their group made a decision that lives in the MAGA sphere. The MAGA playbook is do the most outlandish thing to own the libs, no matter the consequence. And they did this thing. And then I reached them a week or so later, and they've been blasted by people on the left.

And when I talked to them about it, you can hear and see them. There's a morality, there's a core underneath there that's like, you don't want to, you don't want to have Andrew Tate come here. You've talked about your sisters, your mothers, you've talked about women in your lives in a way that what he does is disgusting and you don't want him anywhere near you.

But yet, you are young and part of this Republican party in a way that you have to play MAGA. And here are the MAGA rules, do anything for attention and to own the lips. And you played it and now you're stuck. And what you don't have is the dead soul or the political savviness to escape this conversation. You're stuck grappling with a morality that is based on love and empathy and a MAGA party that is telling you to burn it all down. And to me, that interaction really resonated.

Because I looked at them and I was like, I see it in you. This cruelty is not in you, but the game asks for it. And that's what breaks my heart. Yeah. They have shame. They're not shameless. I know. And that's perhaps Trump's greatest superpower, is that without shame he can do gush near anything. But everybody else has shame.

They do. They seem to. A lot of people do. Yeah. A lot of people do. That's my hope. They do have shame. I think they do.

I think we built a country based around the idea that most, that people do and therefore those are the boundaries that we will work within. That Nixon will eventually step down because it's so gosh darn embarrassing. It's like, I don't know if those are the rules anymore. Well, let me tell you, I think this is a very resonant show. I think you're doing a lot more seriousness, but it's very funny at the same time. But I think there's a lot going on here and it's really important.

You're reclaiming America one row at a time. Thank you very much for rounding them up. All right. Thank you, Jordan. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Kristin Castor-Wesel, Kateri Yocum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney, Megan Cunane, and Kailin Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Annika Robbins and Emile Klein. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda and our theme music is

by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get a house in the Hudson Valley with a view. If not, you're up shits creep with RFK Jr. and his grandkids. Literally. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.