On with Kara Swisher - The Man Behind "Sex and the City" and "Emily in Paris"

Episode Date: December 5, 2022

Love them or hate them, chances are that you’ve watched at least one Darren Star series. Kara once called them the “hottest trash on TV” but for over 30 years she has devoured shows that Star has created and executive produced, including “Sex and the City,” “Beverly Hills 90210” “Melrose Place,” “Uncoupled” and — most recently — the Netflix hit “Emily in Paris.” In this conversation, Kara and Darren discuss how HBO paved the way for risqué television, how streaming has eclipsed network televisions and how Star got inside the mind of the straight girl. Before the interview, Nayeema and Kara discuss why TV — trash or not — is being recycled into nostalgia programming. And they dive into the dark days media is facing right now after layoffs at CNN, hiring freezes around the news industry and shutterings of small media outlets pave the way for a “bad winter.”   You can find Kara and Nayeema on Twitter @karaswisher and @nayeema. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Ready, set, grow. Go to ConstantContact.ca and start your free trial today. Go to ConstantContact.ca for your free trial. ConstantContact.ca Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is Full House, the third reboot, but without the Olsen twins. Just kidding. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Nae Maruza. I thought we without the Olsen twins. Just kidding. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Naima Reza. I thought we were the Olsen twins, Kara.

No, we are not the Olsen twins. They're very rich and don't have to work, so. But speaking of reboots, there's a new Netflix one. That 90s show is starting in 2023, which makes me feel so old. Yeah. Are the 90s the new 70s? Well, you know, sometimes you have to wonder what happened to creativity in Hollywood. Yeah, I think it's also because a lot of people my age, like millennials, are executives now,

and they're all kind of reminiscing for a certain time and culture. And the country also is kind of reminiscing for the 90s in all kinds of ways. I don't ever like nostalgia programming. But our guest today knows something about nostalgia programming. Darren Starr has created seminal shows, which ended up getting rebooted, like Beverly Hills 90210, Melrose Place, Sex and the City. I grew up on these shows. Yeah, me too. And his latest hit is Emily in Paris. Season three will be premiering December 21st. And also season four is already bought. It's a huge hit for Netflix and sort of a cream puff of a show. And I'm sure one day it'll be remade too, and it'll be

Emily's Daughter in Paris or something like that. You know what else feels nostalgic, by the way? What? Happier times in newsrooms. Oh, yeah. The Murphy Brown days. You know what? It was never happy in newsrooms. This is a false. But we're seeing lots of layoffs this week. It's been a sad year from the start. BuzzFeed News slashed their newsroom early this year. Its valuation has regressed back to a point of no return almost. Vice News has a seemingly never-ending trickle of layoffs. And Gannett, which owns USA Today and over 100 local newspapers, laid off another 200 people in addition to the 400 they laid off in August. And the Washington Post is sunsetting a Sunday magazine they published more than 60 years. And those magazine staffers aren't getting new gigs, I'll be honest. It wasn't a very good

magazine. You know, Sunday magazines have been struggling. I would never understood why they kept them, except for the New York Times, which owns that space. And just the Sunday paper space. Yeah. And CNN will be laying off about 200 people, according to Axios. And I interviewed Chris Licht. People should go back and listen to it because he talks about those layoffs. Let's see if this will be the last of them over at CNN.

And on top of these layoffs, three small news organizations have passed or about to pass on to the great beyond. So in addition to these kind of legacy institutions, we're seeing The Recount, which raised $34 million. It's now Kaput. Protocol, Politico's tech site is shutting down. And Future, which was not really a news organization, but an Andreessen Horowitz propaganda site, I guess,

that builds itself as news, has also shut down. You tweeted about future. I thought there was a little shade or schadenfreude in that. Well, because when they opened it, they were like, we're going to show tech reporters how it's done. I'm like, okay, sure. And media is hard. And, you know, they were like, we can grok anything because we're the smartest people in the world. And I was like, media is not the same thing. And it's not a particularly profitable business, by the way, compared to what they're in. And so they just were irritating when they started it and very arrogant. And so...

Yeah. And there's been a lot of vanity investment fueling some of that, right? People saying, oh, I have a bunch of money. I want to own a new site. They all were challenged from business points of view. And that's the whole point is these businesses have to change drastically in terms of costs and what they're delivering to the customer. Yeah, it's happening everywhere, including at New York Magazine's parent company, Vox,

we should mention. They've had layoffs previously, but they have not announced any layoffs yet. We'll see. Not in this, what are they calling it? The cold winter of newsrooms. You know, no one's going to escape it. No one's going to escape it, including tech companies.

NPR has a real financial shortfall right now. They're going into a hiring freeze and we'll see NBC, ABC News, they're all expected to make cuts sooner rather than later. And if that were enough, the New York Times Guild is threatening a walkout. So what does all this mean? It means it's business as usual in the media business, which is the business is not great. And that's it. You know, I mean, I'm sorry, reporters get very romantic about their business over other industries and everybody undergoes

these. This is an industry, it's a business. And if you can't equalize the costs with the product and the ratings and everything else that goes with it, the advertising, you have to lay people off. And that's unfortunate, but they have been sort of living in a different era, even as the, just like music industry, everybody has to figure out what's happening. You know, it's going to tend toward monopoly. The New York Times, I think, is a news monopoly at this point compared to the others. And even the Washington Post hasn't been

able to keep up. The stakes here are also, you know, very significant, especially with local journalism. We've talked about this before. These are the people who are reporting the stories, finding out, you know, corruption scandals, you know, what's the water like in Flint, Michigan. This is, these are real, you know, reporters finding out important stories. And so I think there's a reason for some of that nostalgia. Yeah, I know, but I'm sorry. You know, we sort of romanticize media in general. I mean, they haven't draped themselves in glory on every story. They miss lots of stories. Look at Sam Bankman Freed. I mean, you know, I think the issue is you've got to rethink what the audience wants and think about it. Well, video killed the radio star. Digital killed the newsroom star. Well,

not really, or maybe made the newsroom star, but killed the newsroom. Since 2008, newsrooms have lost more than a quarter of their jobs, right? So there are 200 counties in the country that don't have a local paper. In our last interview, I remember Yoel Roth said something like Twitter doesn't have enough qualified people to keep Twitter safe. I've been thinking at what point doesn't America have enough reporters to keep democracy kind of functional and the fourth estate functional? Well, you know, that's an old trope. I mean, I think there's a lot of reporters. They're just not in the places they used to be, right? I think there's a lot of, and I'm not talking about citizen journalism, which I think is mostly a crock. I do think citizens have a lot of great things to say, and I've always availed myself to the intelligence of the audience. But the way

these newsrooms have been constructed, if you look at them, it really relies heavily on doing things the way they're doing it rather than thinking about it. I'm not talking about doing clickbait. I'm not talking about stuff. But you can make really great news products. And you've seen all these stars come up through very small means. And I'm really heartened by that. I think there's a lot of that happening. I agree with you.

We shouldn't keep doing things in the same rote way. But there's something about trust and brand and institutionalization. And what's happening in this country right now is a little scary, right? doing things in the same rote way, but there's something about trust and brand and institutionalization. And what's happening in this country right now is a little scary, right? The denigration of trust in brands and independent reporters and individuals coming in and saying, this is journalism when it's not fact-checked, it's not this, it's not. Right, but that's nothing fresh and new. Like, you know, Watergate was a very blip on the scale of people trusting the news. If you go back to the beginning of the United States, newsrooms, not newsrooms, or newspapers took sides.

They were full of lies. They were, you know, they went back and forth against each other. And it was only through Watergate where people sort of had this sort of romanticized version of the cruise heading reporter. And by the way, reporters do amazing work. Like all these institutions.

Yeah, especially local reporters, right? And those local journalists. Sometimes, sometimes. Or they do, I should say they do scarce work. Yes, absolutely. Well, let's talk a little bit about who wins this. So we talked about the New York Times. I also think people like Puck and Semaphore, really young startups will stand to do well in this time. They can get some good talent. They'll probably be bought by the New York Times and this trend towards monopoly, but they'll get some returns that they wouldn't get on the

newsroom salary. They're doing very good reporting there. At Puck particularly, I really am very impressed. I read them, I pay for it. You know, there's all these really interesting subscription products. Jessica Lessen pioneered it with the information. Something we should have done. We should have done subscriptions rather early. You don't need that big an audience to do that.

And they're doing great journalism. What about things like Axel Springer? They just acquired Politico. I'm actually just heading to a lunch with Matthias Daffner. I just had dinner with him. He's on a tour. Yeah. He's trying to be right and left. He's trying to be international, which I think is a big, big space. Yeah. I think that's an interesting company. I mean, he's still, you know, it's a private company, so it's not challenged in the same way public companies are and with debt and things like that. And he certainly went through a lot of like close calls in terms of the life and death of that organization.

It had some really problematic things around one of his editors, sexual harassment issues. I think he's a very interesting entrepreneurial, business-minded executive. I think he's fascinating. Speaking of Doffner, by the way. Doffner. He obviously had that, Doffner.

Yeah, okay, get it right before you go to lunch, but go ahead. I'm just gonna call Mattias to avoid this issue, call Matt. Hey, Matt, what's up? Mattias Dofner obviously had that email. He said, was joking about praying for Donald Trump to return. He obviously was pursuing aggressive battles against Google elsewhere. And also, Trump was good for the news business. I mean, Washington Post, New York Times, everyone saw subscriptions fly up under him given his run in 2024. Do we think there's going to be a boon to the business? No, I think he's over. The story's

over. I think he's over too. I think people are sick of it. People are sick of it. Just like his show. It was suddenly, it was hot and then it wasn't. That's what's happening right now with him. He's a tiresome public figure. He really is. Okay. Let's take a quick break. And when we're back, we'll have you talking to Darren Starr. Yep. About Emily in Paris. really is. Okay. Let's take a quick break. And when we're back, we'll have you talking to Darren Starr. Yep. About Emily in Paris. So exciting. Okay. There are a few episodes I would do just for early access to the new season. Emily in Paris is on that list. Yes. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle.

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So we are all at risk, and we all need to work together to protect each other. Learn more about how to protect yourself at vox.com slash zelle. And when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust. All right, our guest today is Darren Starr. Carrie, you covered him very early on. Yeah, I did. I wrote a piece about him in 1994 for the Washington Post. He was from the area. He was from Potomac, Maryland.

So I did the normal Washington Post profile. I was working for the style section. I loved the show. I was the young person on the staff. So they sent me out to Los Angeles to interview him. And I also interviewed his mom and his grandmother. And it was a good piece, actually. I read it.

I'm like, oh, that was pretty good back then. Kara, what of yours do you read that you're'm like, oh, that was pretty good back then. Kara, what of yours do you read that you're not like, oh, that was great? I don't remember, though. I haven't, you know, it's, you know, 30 years hence. It'll make you read some of your bad pieces. I wrote some good pieces for the Washington Post. I know you did.

By the way, I went to two years of high school in the same zip code that Darren Star grew up in. We went to rival high schools. And he based 90210, allegedly, on his own high school. But I heard in Hollywood, the network note was like, put them in bikinis and move them to California. That is correct. That was the correct decision. It just sounds like a perfect Hollywood note. Speaking of loving the audience, that was a great idea. That was a great idea.

Yeah. And he's been a real hit maker. He's made, you know, not just 90210 and Melrose Place, but Sex and the City. It's an iconic television show. And now he's continuing to do so with Emily in Paris, which a lot of people have, just like Sex and the City, much controversy about it, but it's a big hit for Netflix. And he manages to create really interesting, I don't know how to say them, edible shows. People eat them up. Yeah. Edible means something else now, Cara. Okay. Well, anyhow. Yes, edible shows. You don't need an edible to watch Emily in Paris or

any of these shows. I grew up on watching 90210 in Indonesia. And back then, before it was a single window for everything, we were a few years behind. And so when I moved from Indonesia to the States, like Donna Martin was trying to graduate and she was a virgin when I was growing up. And then when I moved to the States, she was like popping pills and sleeping around on yachts and trailers. Poor Donna. Poor Donna Martin. He's a good maker of shows, and it's really good to talk to him about the current situation around Hollywood, because speaking of economics, it's changing so quickly. We should mention that Darren recorded the interview in New York City's noisiest apartment.

He was not in Paris. He was not in calm and charming Paris. No. So at some point, there's a lot of honking and sirens. I didn't notice it because I live in New York, but our producers asked me to say this. Yeah, it did. But I think it was a great conversation in real life, always in truth. So that's a good thing.

All right, let's get to the interview. I don't know if you remember, but we met in 1994. I do. Do you remember this? When I was doing 90210. Melrose Place. Or Melrose Place. Okay.

I did a profile of you for the Washington Post because you're a local boy. Yes., is Potomac or Rockville? Potomac Potomac. Yeah. Right. And I met your mom and your grandmother, which was very funny. I remember all that now. Yes. That was probably like the first, the first piece anybody ever did on me. That is correct. I was an enormous fan of 90210. And I love Melrose Place. And I don't know if you know of this at the time, but your grandmother thought you and I should get together and date, which I thought was funny, because I'm gay. And you were obviously gay. Yes. She was like, you would be very nice. She was like, waiting for me to date some nice girl at that point. Yes, exactly. And I was like, yeah, no, not, not going to work on

lots of levels. I did not know that. That's so funny. Yeah. I didn't include it in the piece. Anyway. Um, I don't think you were out at the time. No, not, not, not to the Washington post. No. Yeah, for sure. Um, one of the things I remember is the lead, which was called, let me read it to you. The pool boy, Darren, the pool boy. Darren Starr is clearly mystified by the pool boy issue. There's usually a guy cleaning the pool at the beginning of the show, asked the 32-year-old creator of Melrose Place, the hottest trash on primetime television at the moment. I hadn't really noticed. And so it was like, it was always someone cleaning the pool, which I love. Now that you mentioned it, I do know exactly what you're talking about. Exactly. Now, finally, I finally got new my investigative skills. Yes, because

that would have been just like kind of a like a stock shot that kept getting repeated that I wasn't probably noticing too much. But now, now that you mentioned it, yes, that was that was back in the day when we could only shoot one side of the set, by the way, you know, the beginning of the first scene in Melrose Place. Because we couldn't afford to build the other side of the set until the show was, like, ordered for the second season. Then we were able to build, like, the entire building. But for the pilot, which is actually, it was ordered from a script to a series at the time. They dug the pool on the soundstage in San El Corito,

which we were one of the first people to film there. But when they dug that pool, I was terrified because I thought, they dug a pool so the show has to work because they dug an actual pool on the set. Yeah, well, the pool was a major character in the show, as you know. Anyway, these were your biggest hits. 90210, another iconic show in Melrose Place. But your biggest hit has been Sex and the City. Is that correct?

That's correct. Probably. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, the show sort of defined the experience of straight women in the city. Although I always thought it was about four gay men. That's my takeaway. Was that ever your takeaway or not?

Honestly, it really, I was, I had, you know, and continue to have so many female friends i'm so close with i feel like uh you know maybe our our emotional lives are similar so i didn't feel like it was a stretch to write them but i didn't think about i i didn't think i was writing gay men and the guys of women and i also feel like i always feel like there's something about that comment that feels a little offensive to women that relate to those women because i think women are smart enough to know that they don't relate to gay men written as women. They relate to like female characters they can identify with. So what what do you think the most important part of that

show was for you? I really I wrote that show because I wanted to sort of like get out from under the constraints of writing for network television. At that point, I thought, well, I started as a screenwriter and then I wrote television. And I thought, you know what, I can't. And having had luck, you know, fortunately, two big hits, and I was in a position to really take some chances. So I was friendly with Candice Bushnell. I loved her column. And I thought she was writing about a world of people because we were very close that I understood

and wanted to write about. And I wanted to write a show where people spoke frankly, they talked, they had the kind of conversations I was having with my friends. And I thought of it as like an independent film

for television. I didn't need to go to network television. I didn't need the, you know, at that point, I didn't need the network television money. I thought it was like, it was the farthest thing that I ever thought that was going to become to network television. I didn't need the, you know, at that point I didn't need the network television money. I thought it was like, uh, it was, uh, it was the farthest thing that

I ever thought that was going to become a hit show. I thought it might've been like the end of my career because it was so, um, uh, you know, it was so sexual. And so, and maybe people would be offended by it, but it didn't matter because I thought, well, it's on HBO where it would basically be programmed after a movie. So I wanted it to feel like a movie. thought, well, it's on HBO where it would basically be programmed after a movie. So I wanted it to feel like a movie. So for me, it was like doing a movie that was going to be on a movie channel because HBO was with the exception of the Larry Sanders show, which I was a big fan. It was known for, for movies. And, and so I wanted to do like a r-rated film for television and so right um in that respect i think it was it was not it was not tv it was like it was like a little film yeah you you said it almost went to

abc before it was acquired by disney well no i didn't really honestly i know people are writing about that recently i guess because there was a hbo book but no, Jamie Tarsus loved it. I knew Jamie. She was a friend of mine. She was the president of ABC. She loved the show. She loved it too. But I said, Jamie, you can't do this show. You can't do the kind of show that I want to do. So there were, it kind of began and ended with that. I knew what it was like to do a show on network television. I knew the constraints of network television. And that's why I posed the question to her wow could you even call this sex in the city on abc for which using the word yes she couldn't even say yes to that i'm like well you know it's sort of like that's sort of the beginning and the end of the conversation i mean harvey weinstein wanted to develop as a movie at miramax and wow um i didn't want to you know and that was also something that i was considering. I didn't, but not really, because I love the idea of an R-rated TV series because I felt like that had just not been done before.

But also people really, HBO did not have a huge television audience. It was, you know, it felt weirdly low stakes in a way. It felt like what I loved about HBO was that their criteria was quality over audience. They needed to do something that made some noise, but what they really wanted was their emphasis was on quality, originality, taking chances, the opposite of anything that network TV was at the time. Now, after Sex and the City, you did work on a streamer on the series Younger, in which Sutton Foster's character plays a 40-something mom going undercover as a 26-year-old to land an entry publishing job. 27. Let's be realistic. 27. Okay. So can you talk about why you did that and what you were trying to do there? You know, there was a book that I had read a while ago and it wasn't available.

And then when it became available, I was drawn to this idea about reinvention. First of all, I can really relate to that. And also I knew a lot of women who had like left the workforce for a while to raise kids and then found it really hard to get back in. And just that whole, the whole idea of ageism. And also for me,

there, the whole, you know, millennial generation had come up and, I felt like I wasn't the young person in the room anymore. And there was this younger generation that I had to understand and figure out. So for me, doing younger was a way to sort of like, explore that generation gap. And it was really fun to be in a room with like, younger writers, older writers having those discussions about what's them? What's writers having those discussions about what's the

world like from their perspective and where's the comedy in that? Well, actually, I got a shout out in the show. That line actually was, I've got to run. I'm having brunch with Kara Swisher. I do not have brunch, so you know. And if I'm late, I'm always late. She'll vaporize my career. I only do that to tech moguls.

I only do that to tech moguls, not to publishing people. I love publishing. You know, the show's about media and publishing and also just the idea that it was about books. And I love to read. I love books. I always have been a big reader. And I feel like the publishing industry represented this sort of like something that meant so much to me growing up and now is like, it is becoming like economically less viable um and yeah and so it was kind of like the perfect um uh you know um laboratory setting for for these characters to live in yeah absolutely especially right now with now all these mergers not happening um i want to move on to your current big hit the The widely anticipated season three release is in late December,

Emily in Paris. I just literally binge-watched all of it. And so I feel like I've been poisoned by meringues and fashion clothes. It was developed for CBS Viacom, where you had an overall deal, and then it got sold or swiped or whatever to Netflix. Tell me how that happened. Well, in this case, it was due to my relationship with Viacom. I did Younger for Them. It was on TV Land for seven seasons. And then they just began the Paramount Network, which quickly became like, you know, the Yellowstone

Network in a great, in a great way. I think it got branded and identified that way. And when I did Emily in Paris, it was going to be on the paramount network and we filmed this season the first season and i was really concerned that the audience for the show just wasn't going to be on the paramount network with the yellowstone people although i watch yellowstone and 1883 i I love Yellowstone. But I felt like I also felt like Emily in Paris was a big international show. I think Paris has that that mystique and that pull for everyone around the world. And they gave me the opportunity to sort of shop it to a number of streamers, Netflix being my first choice. And they and Paramount didn't have Paramount Plus at the time. So they allowed me to take it out.

And why did you pick Netflix? I know everybody has these choices and different creators like you, like Shonda Rhimes or Ryan Murphy have been doing different giant deals or different unusual things. Walk me through the thinking of you as a creator when you're trying to place where you're putting your things. Well, if it worked in success, Netflix was going to be the place where it just it came on at the same time globally. And I'd never had that experience before. I mean, every single show I've done, including, of course, Sex, the City has always been trickled out around the world, including Younger, which is an enormous hit in many, many, many countries, much more successful than it is in the U.S.

because in some cases it's on bigger networks. In this case with Netflix, I knew that it was going to debut everywhere, you know, worldwide. Everyone's going to have the same experience at the same moment, which is the first time that I've ever been involved in something like that. And that everyone was sort of having this,

like, worldwide experience, not on like a big theatrical film release. And that was amazing to me, just how instantaneously the show became a hit. Let me get back to the show itself. It stars Lily Collins as Emily, an ambitious, occasionally ditzy, and failingly perky American millennial who moves to Paris. She's smart and good at her job and always seems to

solve it by the end. There's a little Lucille Ball there for some reason, you know, schemes and plots and things like that. Talk about how you decide on her. Your shows have always featured ambitious, obviously ambitious women. Is she on par with the rest? How did you decide on her. Your shows have always featured ambitious, obviously ambitious women. Is she on par with the rest? How did you think of her compared to, say, the Sex and the City characters or others? I think she's different.

You know, I kind of like actually was thinking of somebody like Holly Hunter in Broadcast News a little bit. Yeah. Who was like, thought she was always

the smartest person in the room and it sort of would get in her way. And I think that's something that people get people a little put off by that quality and i think that's something that what lily does brilliantly on the show she understands and i was worried at the beginning wow is she too beautiful for anybody to like not to just instantly embrace especially the french but what she understood was this sort of like you know bull in a china shop

attitude that she had about herself, about feeling her rightness in so many situations and trying to kind of like have the emotional intelligence. Not to let that leak out, but it does leak out, so she can't help it. Right. And she just captures that beautifully. And she has the intelligence, she has the heart and the charm. So what do you think made it so appealing to audiences right off the bat? The first season, its most popular

comedy series on Netflix in 2020, season two made it the top ten list in 94 countries. Is the timing right? Were people wanting an escape? You know, I think it's a combination of things. I think that, like, with any hit show, there's always, like, a bit of magic that makes it all work.

But in this case certainly the timing was great people were home to see it we've been locked up for a while but beyond that i think that paris has a pull on everyone's imagination as a as a fantasy internationally and i and and um and i think that there's that idea of Paris seeing somebody trying to live there, imagine being in their shoes, the fantasy aspect of what that might be, and just entertainment. Because I think the show on its most basic level, it's about like being entertaining. Yeah, it's a postcard. It's definitely a postcard. But now a lot of people also hate watching it, which I found fascinating. I want to talk about this, because when it debuted, the show was critiqued for cartoonish portrayals of Paris, cliches of French culture, three-hour lunches, everybody smokes and has affairs, everybody's mean.

And you responded, we're seeing the world through Emily's eyes. As you're thinking about that change now that Emily has inhabited a version of Paris, because this new season, which we can't really talk about yet, really changed in mood. Yeah, I think it does. But I think, you know, the first season was about her just getting there. And also that was the intention of the show. It's also she's a cliche American woman also in that regard. I think the French one from actually kind of like semi-loathing it to secretly loving it to now outwardly embracing it. So I think maybe the idea of somebody from outside of them coming and making fun of them, you know, like I'm not sure they maybe got the humor behind it.

the humor behind it. Right, right. You know, but this season, I do feel like the show just, I think every season she's fitting in more, it becomes less about being the fish out of water and more about being just part of the world that she's inhabiting. Now, one of the things,

the Paris she lives in is a stylized fantasy of Paris. There's not a thing out of place, except for dog poop every now and again, which you come back to at various times. But it was a little like Carrie Bradshaw new york was a fantasy of that city also a wonderful city by the way um in 2020 you told the new york times the fantasy always has some connection to something that's real so what's the reality you're trying to capture yeah well i have to say paris looks like that i don't know why people are bothered by the fact that it's

actually so beautiful it really does look like that cara we're't know why people are bothered by the fact that it's actually so beautiful. It really does look like that, Cara. We're not using special effects. It's like a huge, huge part of the city looks like that. You can... No, although you do cut to the Eiffel Tower doing this all the time. Okay. But no, those are like little interstitial shots. But in general, when we're filming the city, that is what it looks like. We're not sort of like lighting it in any special way. And I think Paris is like a profoundly beautiful city. That's why I love filming in New York also. I feel like New York, you can point the camera anywhere and it looks amazing.

I actually don't feel that. I don't feel that way about Los Angeles. You can't point the camera in any direction in Los Angeles and get excited. You did pretty well with 90210. The kids were down at the beach. The beach looks nice. I'll give it that. The beach looks nice.

But no, I think Paris and New York are very, very, very photogenic cities. I think it's also, it gives me the chance to vicariously live there and have that experience. So where does it go from here? What is the life cycle of a show like this? Now, a lot of shows are shorter now. What was 902101 on forever? feel like my entire 10 seasons 10 seasons right yeah what is the life cycle of a show now i don't know i think it really you know younger went for seven seasons and it only ended because i felt like it was time to end the show that's a long time for

for a series that you would think at the beginning it it was like sort of like a, it had, it was a very premise-driven show. So the question is, wow, how long can, how long can we sustain that premise? But what happens is the characters are so good, the ensemble grows, the actors are so good. And as writers, you start to get very invested in the lives of these characters,

and you can see ways that they expand and get more grounded. And I think the audience, and then the audience also has that, feels that experience. Yeah, I found myself actually caring. I was just like, okay, I'm eating a meringue. Now I'm eating another meringue. And my wife, who's a little snotty about these things, was like, how can you be watching that? Because she speaks French. And I was like, I don't know.

I love them. I can't, I hate that I love them, which is kind of, you're right. I hate watched. And then I kind of was intrigued. And then I really care about what happens to her. And I cannot believe I care what happens to her. It's a journey. But why can't you believe it? Because. I don't know. I don't know that, you know, I liked the same thing with 1883, but then they kill everybody. So, you know, there's like, there's always, there's always an oxen to gore someone at some point or someone gets scalped. Would you ever set a show in D.C.

from where you're from? I think D.C. is a fascinating place. I don't think people have ever really... Well, that's not true. There have been some great shows about D.C. among the best of them to me. Scandal. Yeah, I didn't really get a chance

to watch Scandal that much, but I know people loved it. Yeah, no one is that good looking in D.C. It's not a sexy city. Not a sexy city. I think, you know, politics and power and all that stuff, I think there are always shows to be set in D.C.

I just haven't, like, I haven't... And not tech? You've ever thought about doing anything in tech? I mean, it's another great world. I just haven't. Yeah, Silicon Valley. Yeah, there's only so much you can do is fleece and hoodies.

So, but I do want to talk about fashion. Costumes are an enormous part of the series and I have almost no interest in clothes, but I found myself staring at them. And so is it Marilyn? Marilyn Patusi is doing the wardrobe this season. It's the costume designer. And then obviously Patricia Field worked on Sex and the City,

consults on the series. Talk about the importance of fashion here, because it's also a character. Every single character is so well costumed. Yeah, I mean, Paris is such a fashion-driven city. And when I think of the sort of old Hollywood movies about Paris, and I think this in some ways is a throwback to a bit of an old Hollywood production in terms of the production values and the look and feel and the romance behind it,

I think Wardrobe was going to have to be a big piece. And I brought in Pat from the beginning. And Pat brought in Marilyn. And I think one thing I learned with Pat Field is just to sort of like trust her and let her go for it as much. Sometimes I'm like, wow, are we really doing that? But I really I think the audience is really entertained by the clothes and the wardrobe. And I feel like that's certainly in Emily in Paris. I let go of the reality of how and why anyone could be wearing these clothes.

I know. I'm like, how did these poor young millennials afford these? Enjoy it. But I think that to me is like, OK, that's like sort of the old Hollywood part of it is. Yeah. Is is just like allowing allowing it. We'll be back in a breeze. So now, it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. So last year, Netflix renewed Emily in Paris for seasons three and four, which means we'll be seeing Emily for at least one more season. Will she have conquered Paris by the end of season four? I don't think any American can conquer Paris, Kara.

No, it's unconquerable. Did you live there? I spent a lot of time there. I've been going there since I was a kid. I backpacked there. I was 19 in Europe, and I discovered it, and then I would go back every chance I could. And I spent a few months, maybe 10 years ago, living in an apartment there and taking French class like Emily might,

because I was sort of playing around with an idea of doing a show about an expatriate in Paris. But now, I do get to live there about four months of the year. Yeah. As they're making it. And you use a fully French team. Yes, yes, fully French crew. What has changed in your relationship with the city? What have you learned to love about it and things you don't like about it? I feel like there's something about it that becomes like any city. When it's home, it becomes smaller.

You know, your footprint becomes smaller because you're just sort of like dealing with the places it are around you. And when I'm filming there, I kind of feel like I'm in sometimes I feel like I'm just like home, or I'm just in New York doing a show, but I'm in Paris. I think that I'm still not cynical about it, though. I still love it about the city. Yeah, I mean, I think I still look at it. I'm amazed being there. I still think it's beautiful. I think it's got a fantastic quality of life. Sometimes I feel like I have to apologize about how much I like it. Yeah. I feel like you're Emily in some fashion.

I have to be, of course. I have to, like, you know. Are you Emily? I mean, it feels like a little bit you might be. I think you have to feel a part of all the characters, you know, inside of you when you're writing them you gotta you've gotta like channel those characters but you also have to bring parts of yours you got to bring parts of yourself to those characters so definitely i feel like i'm emily i feel like i'm carrie i feel like i'm brandon i you know i um i'm i'm not amanda but um i do feel like you've gotta like uh

But I do feel like you've got to bring that piece of yourself to find the voice of the character. So one of the things about the show is everyone is unfailingly nice. Sylvie is also nice. You know, they're fake mean, really, pretty much. And, you know, Caddy is different than mean. But I'll tell you, Uncoupled, that was an experience. It's this other series at Netflix. It's starring Neil Patrick Harris. It's about a gay man in his 40s who's suddenly dumped by his long-time

boyfriend and is thrust back into the dating world. Tell me how you decided to do that show. And I have to say, I felt sad for every character on that show. Not happy. I just feel like you get to a certain age and everybody has either left someone or been left by somebody. I felt like I wanted to find a

universal experience with Jeff Richman, who created the show with me. It was not just about a gay experience, but it was like an everybody experience. It's a sort of like follow the emotional journey of a character going through something painful and also to, at the same time, expose the significance of that relationship and how painful it would be to sort of like that anybody's breakup, straight or gay, of a long-term relationship carries the same level of pain and in that sense find the universal experience in it. But, you know, that again is like, that's part one of the series. And so where it goes from there, it's not about a breakup forever. It's about, it's also a story

of reinvention, which I really love. Younger is Story of Reinvention, Emily in Paris' Story of Reinvention, and I think Uncoupled is a story about Michael's reinvention. And what about writing a gay man, as a gay man yourself? You had gay people in these shows. I remember Matt Field in Melrose Place, but he was closeted. Stanford Blatch was sort of a classic gay character in a lot of ways. But they were sidekicks. And this was about a gay character front and center. So it was liberating to do it.

At the same time, I felt like, you know, we're writing about a very specific group of gay men. It's not trying to capture the whole gay experience. No. Because who could do it? It's writing a character from one little point of view. So it's about these men living in New York. Is it harder to make that a hit from your perspective?

I think it's harder to make a comedy that basically, like you said, felt sad. Because I feel like it's a little more it's a little more challenging for the audience. Maybe their expectations of of like, you know, a romp from the beginning, we're not, you know, it's not there. But at the same time, I think that the show was a romp in a lot of different, you know, in a number of different episodes. But at the same time, we couldn't ignore the, just the, you know, we had to be emotionally honest about what he was going through. I felt bad.

I felt, after Emily in Paris, I did not feel bad. But let's talk about the idea of pushing more diversity on screen. Do you think that's a good thing to do? Diversity for diversity's sake, though, in the Sex and the City reboot, and just like that, all of them get one black friend and Miranda becomes queer curious, which I rewatched that episode and it's fantastic, actually. This is the Sex and the City reboot I'm talking about, which you're not involved with, is that correct? Yes, correct. Can you talk about the pressures to do that in current Hollywood?

I think you're actually speaking to your audience in a much wider, more relevant way. And I think we did it with Uncoupled. I actually feel like the cast was diverse, but yet felt organic. And it didn't

feel like there was any diversity for diversity's sake. It was just a bunch of wonderful actors who you believe were friends. And I hope you felt that way too when you saw the show. I think Sex and the City was I don't know, 20-something years ago. It was a different world.

What is the reboot craze? There's Melrose Place, 90210, Gossip Girl, Full House, The L Word. Why is there so much of this? I mean, I think it's in a world where there's a million, million, million different choices. It's hard to break a new show. It's like it's so, you know, you've got like name recognition. It's the same thing why movies get remade, why movies are sequelized endlessly and why, you know, why Spider-Man will never, ever go away. I mean, it's like I can't keep track of which iteration of Spider-Man there is.

And I think it's the same thing. I think these are, you know, ultimately you create something, you don't own it, the studio does, and, you know, they become properties. And in the case of Sex and the City, you have the original cast wanting to continue the story, and that's pretty unique. Should you own it so you can't reboot?

Do you ever see a change in that happening? I've had these discussions with lots of creators like you. I think, well, I feel like we're going the opposite direction. I feel like we're getting, you know, creators getting less ownership. But do I? Yeah, I mean, I think if you write a play, you're basically, you have complete ownership. You can't, you know, without permission, you can't do anything a book. But, you know, look, that's part of the deal.

So, I mean, I wouldn't want to get in the way of a reboot with an original cast and writers that I worked with for years who have a passion for keep telling a story that I created, you know, and an audience that's still engaged with it. Let me talk about what you just said about creators owning things. You think it's going opposite. Talk about that, because I think it's really important. I recently stopped doing a podcast for the New York Times because I wanted to own it. So I wanted to own my own podcast and own my own IP. And it's a big push for lots of creators happening, especially online or if you're on YouTube or TikTok and stuff like that. Hollywood has been less quick to change that. Why do you think that is? Because I feel like they want the profits derived from complete ownership.

And I think that's where some of the bigger deals like the Netflix deals, those big deals come from the ability for them to completely have ownership, no profits, although the traditional model of television was profit participation. And even that, it's like the question is, well, can you figure out the formula? Will you actually see a profit participate but um it has for a while seemed to flip the other side where the the um the companies sort of want to just own everything out right do you feel good about that i'm curious if you think about it if you think about all your work and the billions you've made for others don't remind me yes i'm good i want to know i mean yeah i i i think that ownership is for creative people is really is is really important although the choices are possibly limited because the options aren't the ownership options are just are are going the participation is going away but of course

participation is only contingent upon something to participate in. So you need those, that large number of episodes for your work to have value. Okay. So I do want to talk about the streaming wars room because at the same time, there's never been more money for content makers. I mean, it's billions and billions of dollars with the tech companies, all Apple TV, Amazon, everybody's now here with tons and tons of money. Let's do a lightning round where you tell me the best and worst thing about each. Fox, 90210 and Melrose Place. At the time, amazing. They were the fourth network.

They were taking chances. They were new. They were sort of like, you know, what HBO was for Sex and the City in its day. It was an exciting place to be because it was working with an upstart network. And now? And now I wouldn't be interested in doing a network show, period.

I just don't know who was watching network television. Okay. HBO, where you did Sex and the City. I think HBO to me is still, it still has that same magic for me in terms of like, and I think what it means for viewers that's expectation of um quality and and also how they creatively support their shows i still i still have a lot of a lot of admiration for hbo tv land younger um on one hand they did an amazing job of creatively supporting the show they were big fans of the show i think they just didn't have the distribution to like put it out

there to like the number of people that I wish had seen it. And I still believe that I still believe that younger has a future. I mean, I would love to see younger someday on Netflix or something like that. I think, I think younger is like a sort of like this still this underdog is still is that still has some like, you know, gas left in that engine. I really do. Yeah, there's always one that gets away with me too. And that's because of network TV, which you just referenced. You don't think anyone's watching that, that that's a trend?

Not even if it's rewatching? Watching what, network TV? Yeah. I don't want to say that. I'm just going to let you know, I'm not watching it. Right, yeah. The shows that I'm watching are not on network TV right now, but no disrespect for the shows that are there. are not on network TV right now, but that's no disrespect

for the shows that are there. And then obviously Netflix and all the streamers, that's where the action is right now. Although there was a little scare with Netflix. HBO Max is a streamer. I feel like they will all become streamers. I think Netflix is amazing in the sense of its worldwide reach and just the amount of people that are, it's unmatched to me, the amount of people that are kind of like experiencing a show at the same time. Just their audience is just incredible. And if you were a young person, where would you look as a creator?

Is there anywhere if you were, you know, I interviewed you again and you were 24? I would still feel the same way I did when I was 24. Anywhere that's paying me money and getting my work out there any any place you know it's like you don't have the um I the luxury of choice so much when you're 24 and I think any any place where you can get exposed with your work would be my first would be my first choice, anyone who would have me. And when you look at Hollywood today and the time that you've been there,

I'm not saying you're making a lot of television and you've made a lot of television, but what has changed for you in the system? Is it that everyone lives everywhere else? Is that it's owned by conglomerates? Is the tech entered the picture? What's changed for you? conglomerates? Has the tech entered the picture? What's changed for you? I think what's changed is just the amount of opportunity there is. I think there's a tremendous amount of opportunity, so much more than when I started. There were four networks,

and now it's just endless. And I think that if I was starting out i'd be real i'd be so excited about the amount of opportunity out there and i'm excited i'm still i'm excited overwhelmed by the amount of opportunity that's out there the amount of material that's being made the quality of material that's being made what you can say and i feel like you know everyone everyone has a voice right now and the question is like how much how many voices can the audience sort of like take in at one time? I mean, there's just so much, there's so much material, but as a creator, I think it's like, I think it, it, it's an amazing time. So my last question as a creator, you know, you, you're not supposed to have favorites, but who is your favorite character you've created? I don't have favorites. I have none. I, you know, I think you really have to be in love with the characters you're writing when you're writing them. You really do. And

to look back and I've been really, I've got, I've got so many characters I've created that I, that I love that I can't say like, I've got the favorite one. No, no, I can't. You know who I think it is? I know who? No, no, who? Sylvie. Oh, wow. Well, she's certainly one of my favorites right now. I love working, writing for her. She's sharp-edged and soulful, I guess. I don't know how else to put it. Same thing with Carrie.

Carrie had a lot of sharp edges. I mean, I really relate to Carrie because Carrie was a writer. So I think maybe that was a very easy character for me to relate to and also to write because you're able to write in a writer. So I think maybe, you know, that was a very easy character for me to relate to and also to write because, you know, you're able to write a writer's voice because she was like writing a column. Okay. All right, I won't make you up to save us.

Darren, thank you so much. Say hi to your mom. Thanks, Karen. It's a pleasure. Who do you think understands straight women better, you or Darren Star? Darren Star. I agree. I think that he might be the man that best understands straight women.

I think Sex and the City, by the way, is like a documentary of real life dating in your 30s in New York. Yeah. From my experience. From your experience. Yeah, he's right. I brought up the gay man thing is because a lot of people thought that's what he was doing. And because they had such cliches of gay men, Samantha, the really slutty one,

Miranda, the very cynical one, Carrie. Charlotte. Charlotte. The prude. The sunny prude. And then Carrie, who's sort of the regular one, right? And one of the things that's interesting about that,

that a lot of the characters on Uncoupled are in those memes, which is kind of interesting. But they could be universal memes. Don't have to be a gay man or a straight woman. No, I know that.

I'm just saying. It's been said about it. I don't know if it's true or not. I just wanted to ask him because I've heard it so much. What Sex and the City character are you, Kara? I'm not.

You're not going to do this to me. Come on. No, I'm none of them. I'm none of them. Which one do you think I am? All of them mushed together. I think I'm like Charlotte and Samantha. I'm not going to do that. I'll have HR calling me if I was starting to tell you. So no, I'm not. I don't think you're like any of them. I think I, they over time grew to be

not as much cartoons as they first were. If you look at the very first Sex and the City, it's a very different tone and meaner, I guess. And you start to really like them and they develop in super complex ways. And I thought that's what's happening with Emily. In Paris, I really thought, is this going to stop being so sweet? I just can't stand it. And then it started to get some shade. It's hard not to watch though. It's literally the easiest thing ever to watch. I am like a super fan. I've watched every single episode of television that Darren Starr has done, shade. It's hard not to watch, though. It's literally the easiest thing ever to watch. I am like a super fan. I've watched every single episode of television that Darren Star has done, I think. He's very talented, obviously. I am his target audience. Me and my gay best friends are a lot in the mood. Are they? We watch every single one of these episodes.

I would have to say, if I had to pick one, I would pick Melrose Place. That was my favorite. Or 90210. Yeah, Melrose Place was like, I think it was also a little older. So people were going through grown up things. Yeah, I was that age then. But two things that really stuck to me in that interview was one, how risque he felt about doing, you know, Sex, the City on HBO. I mean, TV has descended into so much. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's crazy to think about that time shift. And two, I think he was very earnest and sincere in how much international audiences meant to him. Yeah, that was great. And I think that's someone who grew up watching a lot of Western television. Like I grew up watching Who's the Boss dubbed in Hindi on Sony television and in Tunisia on satellites.

It was bad in English. I can't imagine in Hindi. They called Tony, Tony. It was like very, very odd. Yeah. It's an international, TV shows are global now. And Netflix has heralded that in. Well, also just with everything that's happening in the U.S. right now and how much the U.S.'s reputation has taken a hit politically, internationally, I think, during the Trump era. And really since probably the Clinton era in some ways. I think that television and soft power is really important.

Agreed. And keeping the American dream alive, actually. And so I thought it was sweet that he cared so much. He should never do a show about Silicon Valley because no one's good looking. No one's good looking. Today's show was produced by Naeem Araza, Blake Nischik, Christian Castro-Rossell, and Raffaella Seaworth, with special thanks to Hayley Milliken. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan.

Our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get your very own Parisian fantasy land. If not, zut alors! But you can still go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. You will get a free croissant if you do so. No, you won't. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher

from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday for more. By the way, Kara, Blakeney pointed out that in that interview, you told Darren you've been poisoned by meringues and fashion clothes. What are fashion clothes? They're just clothes, Kara. I need you to understand this. You should see what I was wearing last night.

I don't need to know what you were wearing at Laureen Jobs' house. It was bad. I'm worried that Steve Jobs' son was asking you for advice when you were wearing non-fashion clothes, whatever that is. I still managed to get by.