On with Kara Swisher - The WNBA Is On a Winning Streak. Is It Sustainable?

Episode Date: April 23, 2026

Kara sits down with New York Liberty owner Clara Wu Tsai to talk about betting big on the WNBA and why the momentum for women’s sports isn’t slowing down.  Clara explains why she saw the Liberty as a distressed asset worth rebuilding and how investments in players, facilities and visibility helped fuel a turnaround. She breaks down what’s driving the WNBA’s growth, from the Caitlin Clark effect to media deals, and why, despite surging popularity, the league is still undervalued.  They also get into league expansion, the new collective bargaining agreement and the economics behind it all. Plus: Clara’s Human Performance Alliance and her push to close the data gap in women’s sports science. This episode was taped live at the CAA World Congress of Sports presented by Sports Business Journal. Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You don't like being talked about? Do you? I don't care. I care less. I care less. I do. But I like troll them back and I'm excellent at it and they lose every time. So I'm not a sports person, but I'm very competitive.

Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Clara Wu-Sai, owner of the WNBA's New York Liberty and the NBA's Brooklyn Nets. Clara and her husband, Alibaba co-founder, Josai, purchased the Liberty in 2019 during a low point for the franchise. Its previous owner, James Dolan, had put the team up for sale in 2017 and moved it from Madison Square Garden to a small arena in Westchester County, New York. But Clara made a big bet on the New York Liberty and the WNBA. She moved the team to the Barclay Center in Brooklyn, invested in player facilities, fan experiences, and recruited top talent, which kicked off a major turtube. round and coincided with a surge in popularity for the WNBA. And to cap it off, the Liberty

won the league championship in 2024. In addition to turning the Liberty into a winning franchise, Clara's work across business and philanthropy led to the creation of the Wussai Human Performance Alliance, a six university research initiative that studies peak human performance and aims to close the data gap in women's sports science. I really enjoy talking to Clara. I've met her a long time ago. I have been covering Alibaba for many years. And she's one of the smartest business-focused owners I have seen. Also is very open-minded of new things. But she doesn't get stuck in the data.

She really does love the sport. And just one of these very smart people that I think we should hear more from, and I wish more owners were like her. So let's get into my conversation with Clara. I interviewed her last week at the CAA World Congress of Sports, presented by Sports Business Journal. Our expert question today comes from WNBA, star Sue Bird. She hosts the Vox Media podcast, Bird's Eye View, and a touch more. This was a fun

and important conversation. Clara is very smart. You should be listening to her all you different team owners. So stick around. If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, editor-in-chief of Eater. We've just launched the new-ish and way better eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City and save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and book right in the app. Download the eater app at eater app.com. It's free for iOS users. Clara, thanks for joining me at the CAA World Congress of Sports presented by Sports Business

Journal for a live taping of On. Welcome, Clara. So let's start with New York Liberty. Eight years ago, New York Liberty was a struggling franchise. You called it a distressed asset, and the WMBA was nowhere near as popular as it is today. You and your husband, Alibaba co-founder Josai, purchased Liberty in 2019 and began a major turnaround. What did you see that made it a worthy investment when you were looking at it? You could invest in anything. Well, when we bought the team, we had just finalized.

purchase of the Brooklyn Nets and Barclay Center. And that was in 2019. And in 2017, the previous owners of the Liberty had put the team up for sale and by 2018 had moved it to the suburbs from Madison Square Garden in Westchester. And so the league was desperately looking for someone to buy the team. And they asked us to take a look at it. And, you know, all the numbers were, it was losing money, all the numbers were going in the wrong direction. It had lost a lot of its small arena. And so it was, you know, it was, even though, you know, I just want to say out front that even though it looks genius in hindsight, it was pretty radical at the time to buy the team, right? And so, but we were the logical buyers because we own Barclay Center. And it's embarrassing.

It's a major team in a major market. And these women should be playing in a world-class arena. So we were the natural buyers. And so when we looked at it, you know, we, there were some fundamentals that looked interesting, but it, you know, the business was still bad. but we did see that they were the best female basketball players in the world. There were Olympians, and we were playing in the best media market, best TV market in the world, and in a town that loves basketball. So we thought, okay, those fundamentals seemed pretty interesting. Plus, you know, the history of the Liberty, it was one of the original founding teams.

Sure was, yeah. And it did go to the finals four times in the first six years of the league. It was a successful team. It was a successful team, so it was a storied franchise. So those things there, you know, the thought was okay, well, maybe we can, reinvest, reinvigorate the franchise, bring the old fans back, find some new ones. That was the that was the vision. What was your worry? What was your worry? Like what do I need this for kind of thing? Yeah, well, the worry was it was going to take a lot of time. We knew we would lose some money. And,

you know, in the first days, we had 2,000 people in an arena that sits 18,000. And the question was just how long were we going to have to live with 2,000 people in the arena? I have to say, you know, we, yes, we invested mightily into the franchise. You know, we improved facilities in all aspects of the player experience. We strengthened management. And we tried to make it a destination for free agents. And, you know, pre-Katelyn Clark, we had already seen a very significant increase in all of our metrics. In the metrics, right. But there's no doubt that when Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese and that Clark came in, you know, they brought a massive new audience as well. So the league really grew a lot in the last five years. So the success of the,

New York Liberty coincided with this wider surge of popularity for the WNBA. Last year, regular season games averaged 1.3 million viewers on ESPN, the same as the NBA averaged on the network in 24 and 25. What do you think is driving the surge in interest and women's sports more broadly? I think that the competition on the court, I think it's really good basketball. I think the women play with incredible spirit and grit, and it's very physical. So I think it starts with the quality of the competition, and people want to see that.

I think also just more women who played sports, you know, when Title IX happened, those women started to play sports, and now they're out, they're consumers, and they want to watch women's sports. And because they themselves were athletes. Yeah. I think maybe for a lot of women, they see themselves reflected in it, and they view it as, you know, more than basketball. But a lot of men come to our games as well.

So I can't really see it. Because you want to have a broader group of people comment to it. So every episode we have an expert question. I'm going to have yours played right now. Hey, I am Sue Bird, former WMDA player and fellow Vox Media podcaster. What's up, Kara?

The big question that I would like to ask Clara Wu-Sai is, Clara, you have been ahead of the curve in investing in women's sports. So what is one bet you're making now about the future of the WMBA that most people aren't seeing yet? And if I could sneak another one in, which I don't think is allowed, but what is the most fun part about being an owner, like the thing that no one tells you about what you secretly love? Okay, the first question, I would say, you know, what we're doing is just continuing to invest. There's no ceiling yet on how.

how great the play on the court can be. And I think we need to keep raising the standards of what we're providing to the players. We're building a huge practice facility, an 80,000 square foot practice facility in Greenpoint. And it's not just the hardware, but the software going in there, right? The staffing and the technology and the programming

and all of the community elements. You know, my goal is to build an enduring franchise. We want to build something with sustained excellence. It's going to stand the test of time. And I think making these, all the investments that we're making are really about that. You know, making sure that. What is the Greenpoint facility? How much you're spending there?

75 million. And it's huge and it's going to have these practice courts. It's going to have a lot of private spaces for the players. And there's going to be community basketball courts. There's going to be this whole coffee shop, a whole area where we can sell merch, because all of our fans love merch. And it's just another way for the community to have a touch point with the players.

And a lot of women sports are very community-oriented. So what's the thing you hate, too? I try to stay off X and all those things, right? Yeah. But I guess because there's always trolls who just want to say something. But then you look and you see, oh, they only have one follower, who cares, right?

Right, you know. It's also a bit of a Nazi porn bar, but go ahead. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that, the thing is with sports ownership is you become, you know, you're very public and suddenly you become someone that everybody feels like they can talk about. The fun part, um, you don't like being talked about. Do you? I don't care. I don't care. I care less. I care less. I do. But I like troll them back and I'm excellent at it and they lose every time. So I'm not a sports person, but I'm very

I don't have an account. I lurk. I'm not on Twitter. I do think it's a Nazi porn bar, but I enjoy the back and porn. But what I love, I mean, I love it all. But, I love basketball. Yeah. So I just love going to the games and I love seeing. And you're a sports person yourself. Yeah. I love sports. I love basketball. So the best part is being able to go to games, bring my friends, be there with family. There's also nothing better than winning a championship. Right. That might have been nice, right? You like that? Yeah. Okay, good. So let's get into some of the recent news around the WMB, including how the league operates and its recent growth. First of all, there's the so-called Caitlin Clark effect, obviously helped kickstart the surge in interest to women's basketball.

Talk about the business model depending on the popularity of few stars like Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese, Asia Wilson. I mean, this is not different from the NBA. No, it's a star-driven league. So talk a little bit about that. And how much does the business model depend on it, not just Caitlin, but the other players too? The business model depends on a great media deal. When you have media and broadcasting, you have it on multi-platforms, you have consistent viewing, premium slots. That's essential because that will help you grow your fan base. So the fact that we have this media deal, that's a new floor, and it's excellent for the growth of the league. And that's what makes us confident in our ability to draw more fans.

And what's the importance of someone like a star? Very important. All sports are star-driven leagues. And so what you want to make sure is that you're promoting your stars, you're showcasing your stars. and you want to make sure that you have a good pipeline of talent coming up. And that's the great thing about the popularity of the NCAA women's college basketball tournament, which is also very steady. I mean, I think the last game with 9.9 people tuned into the championship game.

And six of those players from UCLA who were on that winning team got drafted into the league, and they already have social media following. Some of them have great NIL deals. So they already come in with businesses. who could be potential sponsors, you know, the incredible depth of talent that not only from the college, but also from overseas, they're the engine for the future. And that's, that's very important. So being able to promote them is essential. It's interesting with the Caitlin Clark effect. I'm like, you've ever heard of Martina Navajovo and Chris Everett together?

I mean, during that time or where any, not just women's sports, all sports seems to be centered around a star or stars or a character-driven kind of thing where they, face off against each other, they become friends, they're sort of frenemies. Those rivalries, right? Like the whole magic and bird, they were rivals in college. Right. And then they got drafted together and started, had that rivalry against Celtics and Lakers. And sort of, we did the same thing almost in the same time frame. Right. And it doesn't have to be heated rivalry, for example. No. No. Sometimes it is. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Acorns. It's easy to get caught up in the amount of you have today, but it's important to think about your future finances as well.

Acorns is the financial wellness app that cares about where your money is going tomorrow. And with Acorn's potential screen, you can find out what your money is capable of. Acorns is a smart way to give your money a chance to grow. You can sign up in minutes and start automatically investing your spare money, even if all you've got is spare change. I've tried Acorns and I try it with my kids and I have to say it's a really easy experience. It's a great way to learn about investing. very easy to use and the dashboard is completely discernible. It's really hard to learn about investing, and this is a great way to do it. That's the great thing about Acorns. It grows with you. Sign up now and Acorns will boost your new account with a $5 bonus investment. Join the over 14 million all-time customers who've already saved and invested in $27 billion with Acorns. Head to Acorns.com slash care or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentives.

of depositably promote Acorns, Tier 2 compensation provided. Potential subject to various factors such as customers' accounts, age, and investment settings does not include Acorn's fees. Results do not predict or represent the performance at any Acorn's portfolio. Investment's results will vary. Investing involves risks. Acorn Advisors, LLC, and SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures at Acorns.com slash Kara.

Support for this show comes from Indeed. When the pressure is on and you need to hire the right person for the job, Indeed sponsored jobs has got your back. Instead of forcing you to spend tons of time searching, Indeed sponsored jobs matches you with the quality candidates fast. According to their data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash podcast. Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, do it the right way with Indeed. Local news is in decline across Canada, and this is bad news for all of us. With less local news, noise, rumors, and misinformation fill the void, and it gets harder to separate truth from fiction. That's why CBC News is putting more journalists in more places across Canada, reporting on the ground from where you live, telling the stories that matter to all of us. because local news is big news.

Choose news, not noise. CBC News. All right, so the WMBA just held a 2026 draft ahead of the 30th season tip-off next month. That comes on the heels of a deal on the collective bargaining agreement that's given players a nearly 400% salary increase, biggest increase in the history of U.S. professional sports.

Took a long time to get there. You were talking about it backstage. Things obviously got very heated at times. Talk a little bit about this. You say it's a tiring thing to do these CBAs. Yeah, they're never pleasant, but the outcome was phenomenal. I'm really happy with the outcome. Every player is getting a dramatic increase in salary.

And, you know, for the owners, we're thrilled, you know, we have certainty. We have a season. But I think, you know, the numbers are phenomenal. I will say some of them here because it's an incredible growth. And so the salary cap has gone from 1.4 to 7 million, and with room to get to almost 11 million when the term ends, the highest paid player is going to go from 240,000 to 1.4 million. And the average salary is going to about 600,000. And I'm glad we did this because actually the league needed to have a bit of a reset, because we keep talking about Caitlin. But Caitlin brought, you know, a massive new audience to the league, but she was making $76,000. And so, you know, now that is going to get immediately corrected and she'll be making $500,000. So all in all, it's really great that the players got a raise because they deserve it. So talk about the tension.

What was the difference? But I also want to mention that actually what's even more important, though, besides the salary raise is that we change the economic model so that there's revenue sharing with the players. So this is really important because now there's, you know, players share on the upside of the league. So there's more incentive for us to work together to grow the business. So I really want to point out those two things. One, they got a raised. Second is we're now moving to a more collaborative model. And that's going to be really important.

Tension? Yeah, what was the difficulty of coming? Well, there was tension. But every collective bargaining negotiation is unpleasant by nature. I think this one had its fair share of drama. I mean, there were missed deadlines, and all of it was also very well reported. So, you know, is there anything new to report? I think it took a long time because we were negotiating.

an entirely new economic model. But, you know, if you ask me, did I, you know, did I think that the, that we might have had a work stoppage? I mean, I, you know, there was a lot of tension. I think both sides knew what was at stake. There was so much momentum that we had built in the league that it wouldn't have been good for owners or players to have a work stoppage. You know, I think the stress was really more around the edges, kind of like preseason, training camp deadlines, just the compressed ramp up to the season. That's what was a book. the point. And that did happen. Right. When you think about things you'd like to see more of, is there something that was left on the table you wish the owners have gotten or the players?

I'm really happy we have a collaborative model and that we're incentivized to work together because I think the alignment is essential. Between players and owners. Players and owners. Which is hard for the old economics of it, which is I'm paying you run or throw the ball or something. Right. do you think that is going to be replicated elsewhere around the sports world? I think so. I do. Talk about why that's important. I mean, it's happening in media now. It's kind of deal I have it. Or talk about how, because one of the things that I recall saying, I have no incentive to do anything else to help you make more money because, but how could

that articulate itself in sports? Well, first of all, it is, the NBA has a bit of that model. So it's already sort of standard for some leagues. And so I think this, is going to be a precedent for other major professional women sports leagues. And, you know, the only one that's close to us in size is the NWSL. So I can see, you know, their unions taking some notes from this. So the WNBA League ownership is divided. The NBA owns 42 percent. Team owners own 42 percent.

And outside of veterans own the remaining 16. Explain how the ownership of the league makes internal decisions when it comes to things like CBA or expanding the league because you're dealing with a lot of stakeholders. And obviously not everyone is going to see eye to eye. Right. Well, that's a big question. I think the way we work with the NBA is it's a collaborative kind of relationship. But the WNBA makes its own decisions, but in consultation, because we do use some of the

infrastructure of the NBA. But certainly, and as the WNBA gets more self-sustaining on its own, it's natural, of course, that it's going to have more independence. But in the early days, the NBA was essential to the survival of this league. I mean, it really sustained it and subsidized it for a long time. And I still think that there are some advantages of being tied to the NBA, this media deal. Like we did it together. And I think that it also, you know, when you have, we play in the summer, the NBA plays in the winter,

and you can offer a year-round package to a media partner. I mean, there's a lot of strengths, right, in having a united front together. You know, we also have some other shareholders and, you know, something like that. I think it's important to say that not that long ago, this league was really struggling and it needed outside capital to grow. And so when you need capital and you want someone to share that risk, it means you have to share the upside when that happens. Right. So that's a tradeoff that every league that's growing has to think about. And in our case, the NBA is, you know, really created and sustained the lead and was a big part of where we are today.

And the outside capital providers also provided us capital that we needed to grow. And is another structure possible? I mean, I think the question really is thinking about that if you were going to change your structure, you would have to buy people out at market value. And the market value has increased significantly. Has increased it. Do you see that happening? Or is it?

I think there's discussions. You know, we had a lot of things to get done before we could have that discussion. Like the CBA. Right, the CBA, which is through. But also the WNBA Board of Governors recently approved expansion teams in Detroit, Cleveland, Philadelphia, in a post on that website, X. Sports writer and podcast host Bill Simmons called the move, quote, staggeringly stupid and unapologic money grab that will immediately make the league worse, end quote.

I don't see that at all. Okay. Some critics argue expansion dilutes the talent. Explain the strategy. and why is Bill Simmons wrong? And by the way, Bill Simmons sometimes is wrong, but never in doubt, so. I think expansion is really good for the league. I think that it's new markets, it's more games,

it's more fans, it's more content, and ultimately it's going to increase media value, and it's going to allow us to have better media packages. And that's really important for this league. I mean, we need to grow the fan base. And I don't really worry about diluting the table. talent because those of you who follow the WMBA know that so many people that that go to training camp or who get drafted even like are cut from the team before the first game starts.

And so, you know, we actually need to have. You think there's a pipeline of talent. There is a pipeline of talent. Right, right. Take his side, what would be the best argument against expanding even more? And these are terrific cities. These are sports cities, by the way. And also, I mean, the only thing is if they wouldn't invest and they didn't actually market the, you know, stars and do everything that you needed or if he felt like the fans weren't there. But all the metrics are consistently pointing in the other direction. The fans are there. They want it.

The investors want to invest. I mean, I think actually, the league was only looking for one expansion team and there were 13 bids and they were so strong that they took three. Right, right. And certainly could expand even more. Do you see that happening? I think I like the pace we're at because, you know, we've got these expansion drafts And yes, it is true.

You know, we've taken a long time to build our roster. And then we have to, we can't protect everybody. So some people go and it's, it's very difficult. So I think that we have to phase it. And we are. So, you know, there's two new teams coming on this year. And then the other, the other teams will come just year by year. Year by year.

Yeah. So that it builds over time. It builds over time. So the WMBA also signed, as you said, a record $2.2 billion-11-year media rights deal with broadcasters in 2024, Nobel laureate, Claudia Golden, advised the WNBA players union on the new collective bargaining agreement, and she believed the television deal should have brought in more for the WMBA, as a comparison of the NBA's deal with the same partners,

is around $75 billion. Why are the men's rights worth 34 times the women's rights? Can I say, I will just get to the chase and say this is why we're poised to grow, right? Because the revenues on the women's sports haven't caught up with the viewership. And that's the investment opportunity. Because it is true. Like the WNBA viewership is a meaningful fraction of the NBA's viewership, but we are a tiny fraction of the media deal. Right.

So, and by the way, you know, we don't have to get to the size of the NBA. Just even a little bit of an increase is going to create enormous value. So that's why I just think women's sports in general is a great investment opportunity. because women's sports in general have been underinvested and under monetized with respect to the level of talent and the fan engagement, frankly, that there is. And besides the TV deals and the fans and the merch and the various sponsorships that you have, is there another monetization opportunity? Global. Absolutely global. We'll talk about that. But before I do that, I want to make sure that I make this point about why I think media rights will continue to grow.

and I think it's because live sports, I think, is going to become increasingly valuable. Because in a world where content is becoming infinite, AI is making sure that content is abundant, infinite, and predictable. Live sports is the opposite of that. Like, live sports is by nature finite, and it's also unpredictable. Right, like the recent college games. And the fact that it's unpredictable and anything can happen, that creates, like emotional investment, emotional connection among the fans. Very good point.

And so the fact that the world is becoming flooded with content, that really just increases the value of live sports. So I think what that means for team owners is we're going to see it in two places. We're going to see more people coming to the building to go to games, but we're also going to see more people watching. So I just think that there's rising demand and limited supply, and that's why I'm very positive on the future. I'm going to ask about the Human Performance Alliance in a second, but how do you look at technology in that?

Obviously, everyone's talking about AI and maybe the use of it isn't as big as the hype necessarily at this point. I remember interviewing people years ago, two decades ago, oh, it's going to be in all the seats. Technology is the most important part. What do you think is promising and what are you like, let's take a second? I think it's important to be up on the latest technology. and, you know, we're getting, people are coming to us with all sorts of technology all the time. I think the last place that we put it in our arena, we have like facial recognition, right? So you can actually get into the arena faster based on, okay.

And so that's really good for operations and like your flow. Sure. There are some arenas like Steve Balmer's Arena. Like that one is really kidded out and you can, I think you can also vote from your seat and do all these things. I don't know. I think it's important, but right now we're leaning heavily into the live experience and the energy and the building. I mean, I don't want to, I feel like, you know, people come to games now, not just for the competition on the court, but they come because they want community and they want to feel connection. They want to be part of the life experience.

And I think that's also like, you know, and I think for us, if you go to a Liberty game, you know, you feel people are super engaged and the energy, the energy is really high. and that's really driven by the fans. Like, the fans are, you know, they're there, they're loud, they really know the game. And when people go and they experience that, that's what makes them feel like they want to be a part of that experience. And so, you know, we're really leaning into the play and the competition on the court, the fan experience,

creating some energy that's going to draw people in. Ellie and all of our mascots, all of our entertainment, is really built to create an experience that people can relate to. within the arena. Within the arena. What's been brought to you? Because you see all, I get pitched tons and tons of stuff.

And what do you look at that you were intrigued by? And what do you look at and say, especially the technological things, get the fuck out of here. Like, get out of my office. I would love an AI person to help a ticket salesperson to know this person and be able to say all the right things that the person's going to convert and buy a season ticket. You know, that, that I think is really valuable. But not an AI person talking to that person, right? No, I hope not. But, you know, somebody in your ears who can say, like this is, this is.

So it's all back end is how you look at it, but not within the experience itself. No, I mean, we don't, you know, we still have human people, like serving you and pouring your drink. No. No. No? Not yet. Elon Musk said there's going to be a million of them deployed this year. I've seen them. They're in airports making coffee. Yeah. And? I'm a chemex pourover girl. I'm an old-fashioned. Okay. Okay. All right.

We'll be back in a minute. Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue. President Trump is now targeting predominantly democratic cities for ice raids and deportations. Dozens of protesters clashing with immigration and customs enforcement agents in Minneapolis Tuesday. We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space is talk about America and politics beyond the current president.

So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period? I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. When it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated. My sense is that people want border at the border. They don't like the idea of having no. idea who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down.

That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. Hi, everyone. I want to tell you about a new podcast from Vox called America Actually. It's hosted by political journalists and someone I really admire as Dead Herndon. And the show asks the questions, what will America look like after Donald Trump? Kids, there will be an after Donald Trump. Trump's been running a one-man show for over a decade,

but we're heading towards the first open presidential election since 2016, and it'll play out in the country that will feel very different. America actually digs deep into the questions that you and your friends are asking about politics, culture, and economy by an expert reporter, as said. It'll map out the people and ideas that will shape the future beyond Trump. You can watch America Actually on the Vox YouTube channel and listen, wherever you get your podcasts. Let's talk about the Human Performance Alliance,

and then we'll get a couple questions from the audience before we go. It's a major research initiative you launched in 2021. This is a six university scientific collaboration focusing on the study of the human body of its healthiest, working with top athletes.

I just debuted a show on CNN called Caras Fisher wants to live forever about longevity. Some of it's Charltonism, some of his misinformation, and then what's really promising. So why did you decide to take this approach because most people aren't elite athletes.

Some of the research probably just applies only to top athletes, but does it help the broader population? Talk a little bit about what you're doing here. And I appreciate your scientific focus. Yeah. So the Human Performance Alliance is a scientific research initiative. And it's focused on understanding how the body performs. So how the body moves, adapts, recovers, fatigues over time.

And we study people at peak health in top form in order to understand what drives performance and also what leads to injury. And so the reason that we started this is because as team owners, you see athletes sideline and you see the cost of sideline athletes and you realize that they're so little about the human body that you know. And for these professional athletes, right, their career longevity, their health, right? Their health and their performance and their longevity is their greatest asset. So we thought, okay, well, here's an opportunity to invest in research around injury prevention and rehabilitation and recovery, not just to extend the careers of pro athletes. But then we could learn some principles that could also translate into, you know, that word health span, to a better health span for everybody.

Right, health span versus lifespan. Right, because all this stuff we learn. There's a big delta. Yes, there is. It's 15 years. Right. So when you study healthy people, then you can, it's a lot of, there are a lot of implications and things that we can gain in the areas of performance and also recovery and, you know,

ultimately longevity. It will help people, like, stave off, you know, chronic pain. And anyway, by the way, a lot of stuff we're doing is like around, you know, prediction, like predicting, predicting injury or, like, individualized training. That's exactly where it's going. That's where it's going. And all that is going to help athletes, but it's going to help all of us. Right. You know, this organ clock thing that you can tell, eventually you'll be able to say your liver, you will get liver cancer at 52, and this is what will precipitate. I mean, that's the goal. But each organ, not the body as a whole. But only about 6% of sports science research has conducted exclusively on women, despite a dramatic rise in women's sports in the past 50 years. The Alliance's female athlete-focused program is attempting to address that gap. There's no one in this lane, essentially. Talk about what you've learned overall, and then specifically with Remain.

how will the new research be applied? How long before you get things that are applicable in prevention and treatment? A while, but that's because, you know, we're starting with the research because as you noticed, you know, you've, in the series that you've done, a lot of people are starting to peddle protocols

and supplements, you know, before the science is complete. Yes, wellness grifters, is what I call them. So we're starting with the science and making sure that we're doing the clinical studies where we can really... The gold standard one. Yeah, right. So that, but the goal, though, is translation, right?

And we want to have protocols and therapeutics and tools that will help athletes in you and me, right? So, but how long is that delta? I mean, it can be a long time. So this is for the long term. But if you want to do it right, correct. That's the way it has to be. Yes. So you're never going to make it on Instagram, Clara.

But go ahead. I don't have Instagram. I know. Teasing you. So I would say like, so we're five years into this 10-year commitment, and I can tell you that, you know, what I've learned in five years is informing how I want to spend the next five years of the alliance. And I think there's, like, for me, three big unsolved challenges.

One is predicting injury before it happens because right now we're reactive and we treat afterward. Absolutely. So now we're full on into building the digital twin, right? a digital twin that can tell you what is going to happen to your body before it happens and what to do about it. So replacing sick care with health care, but go ahead. Yeah.

Okay. This is predictive and leading to prevention. And the second unsolved challenge is this personalized exercise medicine or individualized training and recovery protocols because right now most training prescriptions, well, they're based on population averages. And so we eventually have to get to this point where, and we are. there because we have scientists at Salk Institutes that are studying molecules that regulate, you know, like nutrition and fatigue and metabolism. And so we're getting to this place where

you'll be able to tell each individual person what exercise they need to do at what time of day with what kind of recovery. So that's another area. And the third big unsolved challenge is this data gap, this gender gap in human physiology knowledge. Because as you pointed out, I mean, women's sports is growing so fast and the science and the research is just catching up. But, you know, you see that because so much of the sport science has been done on men and then just transferred to women, it's why we don't understand why menstrual cycles and hormones, we don't understand like what the impact of that is on performance and recovery. And we also don't understand why some injuries like ACL tears or bone stress fractures

happen more to women than men. And so we basically need more data on female athlete physiology. And ultimately, so that we can have better precision models for women, because otherwise they won't be very accurate. Right, right. It's absolutely true. It's amazing. And at 10 years, you will renew or?

We'll see. We'll see. Would you get out of practical things? All right. We have some questions from the answer. And I have a final question. When will the NBA play its first regular season games overseas? Is that provided for in the CBA?

First of all, yeah, I didn't talk about global. And global is, it's early for the WMBA because we have so much domestic growth ahead of us, right? We have these two new teams coming on this year and three more. So it's early, but it's sizable and really important. So, I mean, first of all, Toronto is starting this year. So that's global. That's our first international game.

I think WMBA Europe, they're asking specifically. Yeah, WMBA Europe, that's, I mean, they're only doing NBA Europe right now. But I can see that further on in the distance. I think the immediate goals would be to start getting some global media distribution and to really start promoting the stars globally. And naturally, it's going to be foreign players who play in this league. I think right now there's 23% of the players in our league are foreign born.

In the NBA, it's 30%. And you can see how global the NBA is right now. So we're there. We're on our way. I think that percentage of foreign talent is going to grow. And so I think it's really about promoting the international stars in their home countries, but it's also, you know, globalizing the stars that are here. That are here.

So Canada. All right. When you see the NBA season expanding beyond the number of games negotiated in the CBA, how do you feel about players playing overseas or elsewhere in the off season? Well, we're, this CBA allows us to get to 52 games per year. We're at 44. I think one of the great things about this CBA is it is going to allow players to actually build a career in the WNBA. Like fewer will have to go overseas to make a living.

And that's really good because they can stay in market, they can be in front of fans, and they can work on their own development. Right. So I think that the fact that, you know, the salary has gone up has given players a lot more. choices. Her question was, or this question was, will there be... Play off-season. How do you feel? Yeah. How do I feel? Well, I like players to stay in market. I like them to stay in the U.S. because it keeps our players in front of fans. Unrivaled as an example of a league that's well-run. And it's, it's... Does the new salary cap and media deal and play a fall off of the unrivaled league or not? No. That's a question here. It's a question for a player. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Let me, this is something to do with both the NBA, two questions. This is one, what is the main challenge in navigating a WNBA team versus an NBA team where their distinct differences? And then if Liberty is in a growth mode, where are the nets? How are you reinvigorating the team after years of rebuilding? Well, WNBA is so energizing right now because we're in like growth mode and we're in build, it's you're building something and you can innovate and do things that have never been done. You're building new audiences. So, you know, that's very exciting. You know, you can try things that

that you haven't done in the NBA, okay? And so on the NBA side, the talent is incredible. You know, again, like you see it in the college level. And so I think it's really, personally, I think it's really exciting when you have young players, you know, like, like we are in a rebuild year. but I think a lot of our fans are trained in the NBA to be really patient. They're really loyal to the team, but they understand. And they also see models, like they see the Oklahoma City Thunder, and they can see how when you rebuild with young stars that you've drafted, you can actually create a championship team.

And your fans are, you know, they see that, and they believe that's possible for your team as well. So that's what we're doing. We've been pretty open about it, about wanting to draft well this year. And, you know, we have players that we're, drafted last year that are really strong. And we're looking, you know, for both of our teams, we're looking for the long term. All right.

One more question to the audience. They sort of belong together, too. How do you engage audiences authentically through cultural sensitivity when looking at growing the audience and bringing in presumably younger people? And then Ellie, the elephant is iconic. Who deserves credit for the Liberty having the best mascot in any league? Talk about that idea of cultural sensitive when growing this audience. Because you want more.

We do, but you know, we're based in Brooklyn, and we made a decision to have all of our entertainment and our team really rooted in Brooklyn culture. And Brooklyn is a place where 200 languages are spoken. It is. And it's one of the most diverse places in the country, if not the planet. So, you know, when you lean into Brooklyn culture, you know, all of our theme nights and our timeless torches and everything we have around the game really reflects the spirit of the borough. So we're very intentional about that. And because we can do that, because Brooklyn is so diverse, we naturally promote diversity.

Ellie is, you know, she's connective tissue. I mean, she's part of, you know, I think I was saying earlier about how people come to sports games to connect with people and to have a joyful experience. And I think Ellie has this, she has charisma and she has personality. And she's one of the reasons why she creates that joyful atmosphere that people kind of associate now with the Liberty Games.

So she's really important. They are a lot of fun. I was joking with Claire, I was asking, Adam Silver, apparently told her I didn't like sports, and it's actually factual. And at the same time, I love the business of sports, and I like the elephant quite a bit. I enjoy it.

I like everything else except the game. Well, now there's so much, see, that's the thing. Also, your food and candy is on point. Right. So that's exactly it. So Ellie bridges that. She actually bridges that traditional sports fan, you know, and the more casual fan. Yeah, exactly.

So last question. We're in a moment when investment is converging with growing fan base and public enthusiasm. How does the excitement around women's sports to become a sustainable long-term commitment, not just a trend? How should everyone the front office, coaches, owners and players take advantage of the momentum while staying true to the values? What is the thing you think about most? Because you want it to be for the long term, as you noted. Yeah. But I don't think it's a bubble at all.

I think women's sports is moving to a re-rating because I do feel that women's sports has been underinvested in and under-monetized. And so I think that there's a real opportunity as revenues catch up. So I think, but it is important that we price to value, but I also think that for all the reasons I mentioned about, well, this unique, the young audience that comes to our games that all the advertisers and media want to reach, all the sponsors want to reach. I mean, you know, that's, and also what I mentioned about why life sports is so valuable. I mean, I think that there's reasons why revenues should grow that are beyond, you know, macro trends that I think make this an exciting place to be. Yeah. But I also want to mention that, you know, like, sophisticated capital is coming into this area as well. And there are these dedicated funds that invest only in women's sports.

And so that in itself is also just showing that, you know, that it's being underwritten as its own asset class. Right. Well, thank you so much for talking about this. This is a great interview. Clara Wu-Sai, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you. Have you ever wanted career advice from Kara Swisher? Maybe you haven't, but I bet you do a little bit.

So now's your chance. Send a selfie video of your question to On at Voxmedia.com, and you may be featured in an upcoming special episode. Today's show was produced by Christian Castro Roussel, Michelle Alloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Bernie, and Kaelin Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media. executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Bradley Sylvester,

Sam Lee, and Julius Sharp Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Tracademics. If you're already following the show, that's a slam dunk. If not, we're calling a flagrant foul. Go wherever you listen to a podcast, search for On with Caroushisher, and hit follow.

Thanks for listening to On With Caro Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more. Thank you.