On with Kara Swisher - Unpacking Tech’s Influence on Today’s Media

Episode Date: August 29, 2024

Tech’s tentacles are wrapped around almost every segment of the media industry. They haven't just choked off a large part of the ad revenue media companies relied on — Americans now consume media on devices built by tech companies and platforms owned by those same tech giants, and their algorithms often dictate what media we engage with.  To explore, question, and analyze the myriad intersections between the tech and media, Kara is joined by three of the sharpest reporters covering these two worlds. Oliver Darcy is the founder of Status, a new newsletter on beehiiv that covers the media. He's the former senior media reporter at CNN, where he covered the intersection of media, politics, and technology. Charlotte Klein is a features writer and media columnist at New York Magazine, who previously covered media for Vanity Fair. And Joanna Stern is the Wall Street Journal’s senior personal technology columnist, as well as author of the TechThings Newsletter, and she also hosts and produces the TechThings video series. Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find Kara on Threads/Instagram @karaswisher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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better than any model before. You can discover how Claude can transform your business at anthropic.com slash Claude. Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. Ever since Biden dropped out of the race,

we've been talking about politics a lot. And I'm going to keep on bringing you interviews and panels with some of the sharpest minds in politics, but it's the end of August and the conventions are over, and we all need a break before the post-Labor Day sprint to Election Day begins. So I've called up some of my favorite tech and media reporters for a grab bag conversation about everything under the very broad tech and media umbrella. They're bag conversation about everything under the very broad tech and media umbrella. They're obviously intersecting in an incredibly profound way. We consume a massive amount of media via platforms owned by tech companies on devices built by tech companies. These same tech giants also collect a huge percentage of the ad dollars that used to go directly to media outlets. And the men behind the tech platforms, and they're mostly men,

wield tremendous power. So we're going to dive into all of this with Oliver Darcy, Charlotte Klein, and Joanna Stern. Oliver Darcy is the founder of Status, a newsletter on Beehive. He's the former senior media reporter at CNN, where he covered the intersection of media politics and technology. Charlotte Klein is a features writer and media columnist at New York Magazine, who previously covered media for Vanity Fair. And Joanna Stern is the Wall Street Journal's senior personal technology columnist, author of the Tech Things newsletter, and she also hosts and produces the Tech Things video series.

So let's go. Oliver, Charlotte, and Joanna, thanks for being on On. Hello. Thank you. Thanks for having me. This is going to be fun, free-ranging conversation about tech, media, where they intersect, which is all over the place. I'm going to bounce around. So keep up. I'm going to start with cell phones. Most of us have an intense love-hate relationship with our phones,

where most people are getting their media actually now. But I'm just curious, how do you look at them as media and content delivery devices? I mean, I think that's the main place where people get their news. I mean, when I write my newsletter every night, I actually preview it more in mobile because I know way more people are going to open it in a mobile browser than they are on desktop. I mean, that's just not where people, I think, are spending most of the time consuming the information. They're doing other things, I think, on desktop, at least the white-collar class are. But I think most people, they're just taking out their phone, and they're scrolling, and they're seeing stuff on the social media apps and then being redirected to browsers and spending times

on Reels and TikTok. I think that's what most people do. And so that's where they're getting their news and entertainment and information. And I also feel like I've realized lately that I actually prefer my first, I prefer to read articles in print, but my second choice is on my phone over a computer because I just feel like it's much more comfortable. And sometimes I'm just sitting at my computer screen and I just feel like that's a very unnatural position. And I think also we saw that, I mean, Oliver, it's interesting to hear you say you think about mobile first because I feel like we saw that just now at the convention with things being uh you know streamed vertically for the first time yeah we kept yelling at Scott he kept taking pictures horizontally and we kept yelling vertical at him almost constantly as did all the other influencers I will say I recently got an iPad and now I'm like this is kind of the perfect medium between reading news on an iPhone.

You recently got an iPad? Well, I never had a reason for one before and now I can use it for sidecar so I got it for that but then I discovered this whole world of reading news on an iPad and it's kind of great. It looks beautiful and it's a perfect medium between like having the big screen on your computer and also having an iPhone. So glad you just got here. Oliver's an old man now. I will tell you, so many of our old Wall Street Journal readers read on the iPad.

And if we move something in the app, of course, they reach out to the tech columnist to complain. And often it's about like, hey, you moved a small thing in the iPad app and I hate you and I'm going to stop subscribing and everything is wrong in the world. I don't have a laptop anymore. I have a work laptop, but I don't have a personal laptop anymore. I just have an iPad. And I was inspired by my parents. So, yeah, to make your point.

So, Joanna, you recently interviewed Rick Osterloh, head of Google Android, and you seem impressed by their AI. Explain how it works and how AI fits into their strategy. Because at one point in the interview, I'm going to play a clip in a second. Actually, let me play it right now. You seem taken abit aback by Rick's approach to AI. Let's play the clip. A lot of these use AI to help manipulate the photo, to take the better photo. But in some ways,

it also changes reality. I don't think it really changes reality. I mean, what we're trying to do is give users a range of tools from capturing the moment to being able to edit that moment later and store the memory how they want. And so this is no different than how people would take photographs in the past and then edit it using Photoshop. He went on to say that Google is basically trying to give users what they want. Talk a little bit about this because this is content manipulation from a lot of people's point of view, although how different is it from, you know, filters on Instagram? Yeah, so Google basically jam-packed these new pixels with AI features. One of them is Gemini Live, which is basically their next assistant, which is a Siri competitor, and you can talk to it, have a conversation, and that's this new future of assistants. But what they did that has been

getting a lot of attention and is pretty shocking is some of the photo manipulation and AI tools. And so one of them, you can add a person to a picture, and that was the question I was asking him about, which like you can take a photo of somebody and then you can hand the phone to somebody else, take another photo and then have these two people in the photo together, even though they were never in the photo together. Right. You can then take a photo and then circle an area and generate something to be in that photo. And The Verge did a great story about how you can generate pretty much anything. I mean, you can't generate people. You can't do a picture of Donald Trump or Joe Biden, but you can do a car crash or you can do smoke or you can do a needle or things that resemble

drugs. And you can just put these things into the photo. And so here I am asking Rick Ostrillo, who heads this all up, you know, don't isn't this messing with reality? And his answer is no. And it's, we've all had Photoshop for all these years. And the truth is, is sure, we have all had Photoshop for all these years, but I don't know, 99% of the population doesn't know how to use Photoshop. It's not one or two taps away and the ability to just type in whatever you want to see and then another two taps to upload something for everyone. Well, there's always been an ability to do filters. There's always been an ability to, like, there's one app, remember the car fell on your head all the time and things like that, which is more for fun.

Yeah, and they were cartoony, and they were, like, you could tell, right? These are not Snapchat filters, though, you know, Snapchat filters have, of course, gotten more advanced, and people can really amp those up to be more lifelike. But this is like real content manipulation that looks quite real. And then you get to the fact that you can't even really tell that these have been generated by ads. So I'd love to hear everyone else's thoughts on this, especially as it pertains to the election and the content ecosystem. But from looking at it from the product perspective, it's never been easier. And so the question is, is that responsible practice from the tech companies? Isn't it inevitable that they're going to do this if you have these tools to do these things? I can't

imagine if they don't release it, someone else won't. I absolutely think this is the future. And anything we can think about in terms of technology patterns and history, it will become more accessible, right? I don't think we all had like, absolutely think this is the future. And anything we can think about in terms of technology patterns and history, it will become more accessible, right? I don't think we all had like, oh, Photoshop will become more accessible. Like that was not a thing. We were like, yes, we're going to be so excited about that in a few years. But that's where we are. And so now I think there's, I do think it's inevitable, but I do think there needs to be more done in terms of the transparency around it.

Of what you're doing, that this is a photo that's been manipulated, right? That it has some sort of watermark of some sort. Yeah. And like, I don't know, like, it's nice. Like, I like what they do and they show it always. It's like any technology. I like what they do and they show like, oh, you can add the person to your photo because, you know, you're on vacation and you don't want to hand your phone over.

Or, oh, you can add in a cute little puppy, but then that cute little puppy becomes, I don't know, you know, you're on vacation and you don't want to hand your phone over or, oh, you can add in a cute little puppy, but then that cute little puppy becomes, I don't know, you know, cocaine. And you're like, eh. Becomes cocaine. Oliver, how do you look at this? And that's the next step, not just manipulating photos that are real looking, but also taking iconic media figures and rethinking them, like Mickey with Mickey taking cocaine, for example. I just think it's irresponsible from Google's standpoint

for them not to watermark these images. I mean, I actually am very into photography. I'm often taking photos. I use Lightroom, and I think the AI tools in Lightroom and in Photoshop have actually saved me quite a bit of time, and they're very useful. But this is not that. This is like create a bike accident scene with gory blood everywhere.

And it will just spit out this image that looks extremely realistic. And it's stunning to me that Google does this because one, when I use Gemini online, I find it to be the most conservative. It often spits out, we cannot do this because I am not a, you know, whatever, current up to date with current events and search Google. And then I'm looking at these reports about what they're doing on their phone. And it's crazy. There's no watermark that says this is AI generated.

And it really makes it seem so that you can't basically like in five years, maybe you can't trust any photo you see on Twitter or X or, you know, whatever it's called and threads and all the old Instagram. You just can't trust it because it's so simple to manipulate. So if you're a journalist and you're just like scrolling social media and someone says there's been like a plane accident, you can't trust that image that you have seen. Like you just can't trust it.

And that's like not a, I don't know, that's not a world I want to live in where I can't trust anything I see online. That sounds not fun and really worrisome to me. And so I'm actually interested in this new bill in California where they're maybe considering mandating AI companies do include some sort of safeguards like a watermark on these images. And OpenAI is reportedly supporting that bill. I'd be curious to see if others do. And I'm just shocked at Google's irresponsibility here. others do. And I'm just shocked at Google's irresponsibility here. Right, right. Absolutely. Well, we'll get to the ability of media to be generated by not just people, but in a much faster way in a second. But I want to first, this week, cell phone bans are taking off across the country and parents are freaking out. I have been a big proponent of cell phone bans in schools, particularly. Charlotte, you graduated

college in 2019. Incredible. The first phone, iPhone was released in 2007, I remember, because I got one of the first ones. You would have been in grade school then. So smartphones have been a thing for pretty much as long as you can remember. Let me get your take on cell phone school bans. So when I was in—I went to boarding school for high school school and we weren't allowed to have our cell phones out. Like you weren't allowed to see them. So if you had to, if you, for example, if you're walking down the main hallway, you couldn't be texting on your phone. And I always thought that was fine.

I mean, sometimes I would call, you know, my parents or make calls in my dorm room or elsewhere. But I really didn't see what it was like to be in that kind of environment in high school. You know, I remember Snapchat was just starting then and Instagram was sort of just starting. But I don't know. I feel like the rule was just they weren't out and you weren't allowed to have them out and people followed that. But I realize it's not always that easy. And then in college, it was sort of the same. So how do you look at these? I mean, I just like, I don't, will they work? I mean, maybe if you really sure. Yeah, if you have to put your phone in a safe. I don't know. I mean, you know, I think about things like the shooting in Uvalde and how many of the kids use their cell phones to call. And I think that, unfortunately, safety is a reason to have cell phones out. safety is a reason to have cell phones out. But I also recognize that that's hopefully not an everyday thing. What about you, Joanna? You have kids.

I do not want my kids to have phone in schools. And in fact, my son himself bought a box, a clear box that you put it in and has a timer and he couldn't get it out, right? It had a lock. It was a lock box where he could see it, but he couldn't access it. So then he would do his homework, for example. I'm so torn on it. I think I don't want them to have, it goes to what Charlotte was saying. I don't want them to have phones any other time unless there's an emergency. And so I go back to thinking about, okay, I was in school when September 11th happened. I was in high school. And there was an emergency, right? And we all wanted to get in touch with our parents. And I went to the pay

phone, right? And I remember going to the pay phone and typing in the numbers. And I had a calling card, you know, the typical way. You had those too, right, Karen? Yes. Yeah. And so I think there can be other ways, but yeah, this is the world we live in. And so I struggle with it a lot. Is it a watch? Like, is there some sort of other device? Like, I think as the kids are younger, the watches make sense. They have very limited capability. They don't have all the addictiveness of that. So, you know, I think about it a little bit from the product perspective. Like, is there another product? Like, that might not be the answer. But, I mean, this is just, this is what's happening across the country, too. We've done some stories, too. Like, the schools want to ban them, and the parents are fighting

back. To me, you know, when you say if there's an emergency, well, there was only one 9-11, right? There aren't that many emergencies that really do actually happen that can't be handled, you know, via a school phone or a watch or something like that. So I do think this is going to go on and on and on, and they're going to be banned in every school, presumably, going forward. And sometimes they should be banned in offices, but we can't do that right now. I know I sound like a crazy old person, but I think that's where it's going. But yeah, and also just to insert here, I mean, I don't, you know, not from like a product perspective do I think, but the tech companies have just done nothing in terms of these screen time protections. I mean, Apple's screen time is, I mean, it's a garbage, it's just garbage. It barely works.

So there's really nothing that I think can be done on the software end for these devices. And so that is literally why a bag with a lock is the hottest product in schools. It is. It is right now. I'm going to interview the Yonder CEO at some point. All right, enough about phones. Let's pivot a little bit more to media. Charlotte, you wrote an excellent profile of Ezra Klein for Intelligencer. You're following up a semaphore piece by Max Tanney that basically the higher-ups at the Times or Klein seem to be conflicted by his success. This is one of the many of Ezra Klein pieces, including how hot he is. Okay, fine. Talk a little bit about someone like Klein right now. There's a great quote from Ezra that says, I sometimes feel like a dumbass who's left a ton of money on the table

referring to a potential podcast deal with someone like Spotify or to a platform like Substack. I would agree with him. I've told him this many times. And in fact, when he went to the Times, I said, you've just left a ton of money on the table, just so you know. Talk a little bit about this, you know, this phenomena, because Alex Cooper just signed a $125 million deal with SiriusXM. Oliver, I'm going to ask you a little bit about that, too. But talk a little bit about this piece. Yeah, I mean, I think Ezra is very much having a moment right now because, I mean, I saw people have said this, and I think it's accurate, which is that if he right now, it looks like he was he saw the future in saying that Biden should drop out and saying Kama was underrated but if that didn't happen we probably wouldn't be paying

a ton of attention to him but I think that the buzz around him is more than just that it's around the fact that he seems to be this behind the scenes power broker within the Democratic Party and he's a media figure he's a podcast star he's um you know he's a times opinion columnist but i think that i don't know i mean during my interview with him i he got really offended when i asked him if he still considers himself a journalist and then and then he correct and then i said okay maybe i should have asked you if do you still consider yourself a reporter because he was like i work at the new york times of course i'm a journalist um and he still considers himself a reporter i think the reporting he does is very different than the reporting that oliver does or that i do or that

you know maggie aberman does but i think that there are these he's now also become this sort of pseudo celebrity like at the dnc he was being recognized. The ushers knew his name. You know, people are coming up to ask him for photos. And it is sort of interesting. He's now become part of the story, which also makes me wonder how much of a reporter he could be. Because I do think that gets in the way of your work. It can. It certainly does.

You do shift from being... Scott and I had the same experience at the DNC, which was interesting to me. But one of the things you do... I was a regular reporter and a beat reporter, and now I'm not, although I do reporting, but I certainly would admit that it's not the same thing going forward. Oliver, you know, this $125 million deal for Piazza, is there money left on the table or does it matter? Talk a little bit about this. I know a lot about this, obviously. I can tell you exactly how much money he left on the table. But talk to me a little bit about this sort of trend. I did the same thing, right? I left CNN and I started Status, which is a, you know, a nightly newsletter that you can get in your inbox and covers media tech and the things we're talking about now. And I think it's never been easier, right? I mean, 10 years ago was the infrastructure in place where I could do this. Was there a Substack, a Beehive, Ghost available? Stripe now is taking payments. So it's so much easier today to do this than it's ever been.

And I think also there's an allure of creating value for yourself, right? Building something that you own yourself, especially as we see a lot of trouble at these legacy media companies. I think every company has done layoffs over the past couple of years. And that's certainly a trend that's going to continue. And so if you're looking at the media landscape, direct-to-consumer is not only where these big entertainment companies are going. It's also where journalists are going. And so there are going to be anomalies, I think, like Ezra Klein. And, you know, the times is the times. And so they're going to be able to retain and attract talent.

You know, the times is the times, and so they're going to be able to retain and attract talent. But I think, broadly speaking, the trend is certainly going to be creators, because I think that's what journalists are at the end of the day. They're creators. They're creating news and information for people. They're going to go independent. And, you know, you've seen the trend already on YouTube and TikTok where those sorts of influencers go independent. But I think there's certainly a market for journalists, too, and it's been shown. Talk us through the economics of your move. You're using Beehive, just for people who don't know, rather than Substack, which to me, eventually will all be the same. But talk

about the economics, how you thought of it. I mean, I don't know if everyone can necessarily do it, but if you can attract enough subscribers, and you don't need, you know, economically, you don't need, you know, 100,000 subscribers to make it work. You don't even need 50,000 subscribers to make it work or 20,000. You just need a tiny sliver of subscribers to pay you monthly for this to work. And so for me, it just seemed to make sense. And I'm also able to sell advertisements against, you know, the audience that I have. And I'm also able to sell advertisements against, you know, the audience that I have. And I also, you know, I do want to say I think that the time in legacy media building, you know, something at CNN has allowed me to do this. And I don't know how easy it would be to just graduate J school and or whatever and start your own thing. But I think if people know who you are,

if you're a known entity, a known person, you certainly have the ability to go independent. I will say, I do think, just as the entertainment companies are thinking about bundling, that that's gotta be something too eventually that comes into play. That you get bundled. Yeah, like you can do,

like I don't see why there couldn't be some sort of bundle between like my newsletter and say like Casey Newton's letter and a few others, and you can sell it as a bundle. And I think that certainly down the road has to come into play because people only want to pay for so many subscriptions at the end of the day. Yeah, you definitely avoided the economics there, didn't you? Well, I mean, what's the specific question on the economics? I can tell you. I'll just do mine. I'm making 10 to 15 times more than I made at the New York Times.

At least. So, that was all. And no meddling. So, I think that was one of my... They're very meddlesome. So, as are many legacy media companies, or without creativity in the way that I was looking at it. And there's creative enough,

but, you know, it's like being likable enough. I will just say in terms of Ezra, I mean, I do think he is an anomaly. Like he, you know, sort of similar to your career trajectory, Kara, was a blogger and then a reporter and then a founder and now is a Times columnist. But he said to me, he was like, I don't really have the desire to do this on my own, despite realizing he's left money on the table. He also acknowledged that some of it is the New York Times I think particularly with him and the people he's trying to reach like yeah would Nancy Pelosi go on his podcast if it was on Substack not impossible but I do think she just went on my yes the answer yes but well if you have it it's different but I just think you know there is something about

having the New York Times for certain people. And I think that that's something that he's considering as well. So, Joanna, I'd love to focus just very quickly on the tools available as they become, you know, we talked about manipulating photos and stuff like that. But talk a little bit about how tech is sort of facilitating or not facilitating what's happening. Well, I actually think about it in a big way. facilitating what's happening. Well, I actually think about it in a big way. My wife runs her own marketing media company, and she has said basically ChatGPT was an entry-level employee for her, like that can draft certain memos and draft certain presentations. And I think we'll get to that in journalism. I mean, Oliver, I'd be interested to see if you're using AI tools at

all to sort of, I don't know if you had a reporting assistant at CNN or some of the basic grunt work that you can now pass off to AI, which is going to be in these tools anyway. So there's one, like the content creation, the editing and those tools. And then there's obviously the platforms, which we went from WordPress to now really simple newsletter tools to really simple podcast distribution tools. That barrier to entry is not what it was 10 years ago. Right. Oliver, talk a little bit about this, this idea of using, and both of you, AI in your reporting. Oh, I think it's interesting. I mean, I've been using it saying chat GPT, like spell check or make sure there's no grammar mistakes in this copy. And, you know, it's pretty good at

that, actually. Like it's, it will catch, you know, gramm's pretty good at that, actually. Like, it will catch, you know, grammatical mistakes, and it's not perfect. I also do that for you late at night, don't I? But go ahead. Kara does. Kara will send me text messages sometimes like at 12.30 a.m., 1 a.m., and she's like, you know, highlighting different errors in the copy. And I'm like, Kara, why are you awake? And then I realized maybe she's on the West Coast. But you are not the only one. There is a surprising, if you're a newsletter sender, there is a surprising amount of people who will send you very thorough copy edits every single night. I digress. But it's... Anyway, so you, but you see yourself using those? I actually just experiment with them quite a bit just because I'm curious like how they're

evolving. And so I use Gemini and ChatGPT mainly but i uh will ask it to spell check and check for grammar i'll ask you i've started now that i don't have an editor saying like do you have any like edits for clarity and sometimes it will suggest like especially chat gpt it's pretty good at suggesting some like you know it'll clean up some stuff and say don't use this word and like you know fix it um and then headline generation i I think that's another thing that's fine in my eyes to use it for, like give me some headline ideas. And it's never perfect, right? It's actually like talking to an assistant of sorts, right? Like, and it will spit out ideas that are not like, they're like 50% there maybe, right? And you can kind of play with them and then, but it helps with idea generation. And so I think certainly like you

can use those tools. Now, I think you got to draw the line and I would never say like, write me a piece on, you know, Elon Musk and whatever. And it's not going to be able to do that well. And I think my voice is pretty distinctive. People know what it sounds like. And so it just wouldn't work, but certainly for like the assistant type stuff, like you, you could use it like that. And I think it would be almost silly not to use these tools at your disposal. I just. Like you could use it like that. And I think it would be almost silly not to use these tools at your disposal. I just think you got to use it responsibly. We'll be back in a minute.

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Visual platforms are dominating, audio even in that regard. Former President Donald Trump recently went on Theo Vaughn's show, and it was quite an interview. It was a lot about cocaine. Is cocaine a stronger up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're way up with cocaine more than anything else you can think of. Cocaine will turn you into a damn owl, homie. You know what I'm saying? You'll be out on your own porch.

You'll be your own street lamp. You're freaking. And is that a good feeling? No. Charlotte, talk about the digital game right now. In media, Harris or Trump, and Democrats obviously did an impressive job of bringing political influencers to the convention. But overall, right-wing influencers have had a bigger following online. I know Scott and I are in Chartable in the Top News podcast, but we're always surrounded by Megyn Kelly and Mark Levin and Ben Shapiro and Dan

Bongino. We're like a little blue boat in the sea of red. So talk a little bit about this, why Trump is doing a lot of these, some of them very odd. Talk about the importance of this from a media perspective. I mean, no, I don't know anyone my age, my generation who watches cable news. I'm 27 for clarity. I think this is where you reach people. I think Kamala obviously had a ton of success with TikTok. It makes it interesting to see where the band's going to go now, given it was so helpful for her campaign. I do find myself wondering, is this a bubble? Like, you know, after she, after Biden dropped out and she became the presumptive nominee, my entire social media feed, especially TikTok and Instagram, were just flooded with memes. And I was like, I wonder what

someone my age, what their phone looks like, you know, in middle America, what their phone looks like, you know, is this just my algorithm or whatnot? But I do think it's really important. I mean, I think Trump, you know, just anecdotally, I've heard way more about Trump's interviews with Theo Vaughn and, and even another influencer who I forget, just in conversation rather than like his Fox call or whatever he's calling into. It's an elk voice. Yeah. And I think that it's interesting. I was speaking, you know, the DNC credentialed more than 200 content creators. And I was speaking to one there. I was asking him because it seemed like Pete Buttigieg was doing the most collapse with these influencers. And he was like, well, he's been very available and receptive to it. And they

bring us all here, but we've actually had trouble in some circumstances linking up with surrogates. And it's something that the right does so well, where they actually make it very easy for people to connect with their surrogates. And I think it's an interesting sort of learning curve for the Democratic Party there. But obviously, they're seeing the success that it's had on the right and replicating it. So, Oliver, there was a lot of kerfuffle, sort of a kerfuffle between influencers and the media at the conference. And, you know, they were running around. They had an area, a special influencer area. You know, obviously, the journalists say they're going too easy on the candidates. Honestly, journalists should not be saying that because they do that themselves almost continually. But talk a little bit about what's happening here in terms of media consumption of the messages these candidates are putting out. Yeah, I think – I mean, I think that the whole kerfuffle was a little bit silly because I think that what journalists do is a little different than – I mean, it's different than what influencers are doing. And I think both can exist peacefully, and I didn't really understand why there was so much tension between the two. peacefully, and I didn't really understand why there was so much tension between the two. I guess maybe that journalists are worried that their grip over the narrative is maybe slipping

away to some of these influencers, and there's that tension. But it just seemed a little bit silly. Both can exist. And I think it's smart for politicians to talk to both audiences. I mean, I think talking to a Jake Tapper or a Norah O'Donnell or a Gayle King is going to reach one audience. And then talking to some of these other influencers who have completely different – they're targeting different the reason you're a blue boat in a red sea is because traditionally like Republicans and conservatives have done a lot better on audio, right? Like AM talk radio has been a thing in GOP circles forever. Rush Limbaugh obviously was the one that kind of blazed that path, but Sean Hannity is on Fox News because Sean Hannity was an AM radio host, right? Laura Ingraham is on Fox News because she was an AM radio host, like Mark Levin on Fox News.

So Fox News has really just poached these AM talk radio hosts and put them on air. But they've always dominated the space. And I think what you're seeing now is as technology is advancing, AM talk radio is going away, right? Like there's a whole thing about whether they should even be forced to put them in the cars.

And podcasts are booming. And so a new generation is also on the podcast space, like Ben Shapiro. But it's also a lot of the old school guys who are just taking their AM talk show hosts and putting it on podcasts. And so that's a space I think that's, they have almost an advantage because they've been doing it for decades.

They're just transferring platforms in a quick, easy way. Okay. So I want to talk about in California, lawmakers appear they're going to shelve a bill that would have forced tech companies to pay news organizations for distributing their content. Instead, key legislatures have reached an agreement with Google and the news industry trade group to establish a $250 million fund to help shore up California newsrooms and launch a national AI accelerator, whatever that is. A quarter of the money would come from the state and the rest would come from Google and potentially other private sources. Not everyone is impressed, especially because these companies can—it's a tax deduction, apparently. The Media Guild of the West, which represents journalists in California, called a shakedown and put out a statement saying, Publishers who claim to represent our industry are celebrating an opaque deal involving taxpayer funds, a vague AI-accelerated project that could very well destroy journalism jobs and minimal financial commitments from Google to return the wealth this monopoly has stolen from our newsroom.

Charlotte, give us a read on this deal and the reaction from journalists. I mean, I think journalists are saying that this is A, not the path forward, and B, it's not even enough money. That being said, I do feel like it's not all bad in the sense that at least we're looking for other ways to fund journalism, local journalism. I mean, it's good that, you know, Google is even thinking about that given what its algorithmic changes have done to newsrooms. Well, one could say they're trying to get out of what they've done. Yeah. But with an easy pass and stuff like that.

Trying to get out of what they've done, but with an easy pass and stuff like that. Oliver, you just published a post with a subhead publisher looking for media landscape, are likely realizing they don't have much of a choice but to partner with tech companies like OpenAI. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, and Vox has partnered with OpenAI, although this podcast is not part of the deal I declined. Explain why so many feel like they don't have a choice. Well, I mean, you have to get on board, basically, because I mean, these companies, if you look at the economics, these companies are starving for revenue. So, you know, you have OpenAI basically with their checkbook open saying, well, write you

a pretty nice check to take your journalism and inject it into our library for its search GPT thing, which isn't launched yet. And I don't think these companies feel like they're in the position to reject that money. Only the New York Times, which is like basically the one sliver of like positive light in the journalism space, is saying, actually, no, we're not going to take your money and we're going to sue you because you actually owe us money because you violated our copyright and stole our information to become this behemoth where now you can shake us down. And we're not going to do that. Although I think it's part of a negotiation. I think the lawsuit. Or it could be a part of a negotiation. But open AI is so big now. And I think people can see the landscape where this is going that they just don't, it's either you jump on board the ship, or you're going to be left out at sea. And so they, they are taking the money. And I think like,

you know, it's for these tech companies, like the amount that they're paying is, I guess it's a lot for media companies, but for these tech companies, it's really not much. Like, you know, like Google's market cap is over $2 trillion. And as part of this California deal, we were just talking about this $2 trillion company is basically avoiding legislation with like, and getting a great deal where they basically pay nothing and then they write it off as a tax write-off. So that's the problem. And these companies are so big that it's really difficult for a tiny, tiny media company. I mean, Vox Media is a pretty big digital media company, but compared to a $2 trillion company like Google, I mean, there's no comparison, right? And so they have no real choice but to, you know, make a deal, right?

So, Joanna, you've probably spent more time testing different AIs than anyone in this conversation. Former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers, as he said about AI, I suspect the fact that it comes fairly quickly for the skills of people who write articles is going to lead to some potential tendency toward exaggeration in what we read about its significance and the rapidity of its significance to the economy. Of course, Larry Summers is on the board of OpenAI. Let's be clear about that. Two questions. How worried should journalists be about AI taking their jobs? Would you be using it overall? How accurate is the media then when it's reported on its effects on the economy beyond what you were talking about earlier, which is manipulation of media?

Well, I don't know who's been saying this quote, but there's the quote right now that AI won't take your job, but someone using AI will take your job. Yes, that's from Scott. That's Scott. Great one. Great. Perfect. Thanks.

This is the problem with the media today. You don't know who says what, right? This is, that's the, I think, the lesson for any journalist. I mean, I think that's, whatever level you're at, that is the lesson. Can you use these tools to make your product, your creation, as we were talking about, better and or save time so you can spend more time doing something else? Use it responsibly, of course, but also use it in ways that are creative. I think that using it for data journalism is going to be a huge thing. We've started doing that at the creative. I think that using it for data journalism is going to be a

huge thing. We've started doing that at the Journal. I think that's another place where independent journalists can use this when you don't have a giant team of data scientists, and you can now use these tools to say, hey, here's a big database. I'm trying to look for patterns. So I'm excited about those things. And I even tell a lot of the junior reporters I work with to be thinking about which ways, like, don't be afraid to say, which parts of my job can this do now? Because it means they will free you up to do other things. And your thing is research. You're right. You're talking about research and idea generation.

Research or like, I have somebody who helps me with my weekly newsletter and she helps summarize things. And so if you can use this to help summarize and that takes some time off your plate and shorten, right? Like if you're writing and then you're bringing it into the tool to help polish it up and all the ways we were talking about before, okay, that's going to save you some time so that you can use that time to start growing the other areas, pitching other stories. That's the way I'm thinking about it. But circling back to big tech, Joanna, a federal judge recently said Google a monopolist. It's around advertising, but that's what fuels all of this. And it means parts of companies might

end up getting broken off, including Android. You're talking to folks at Google all the time. Let me just add one more thing. Many years ago, when they were contemplating stopping the AT&T, the merger with CNN and everything else. I said, they need to merge because, you know what? They're not big enough for big tech, right? These are big companies that are not big enough anymore. Talk a little bit about efforts to slow these companies down. They've never been richer. They've never been more powerful. They control distribution of media and so much more on communications. I mean, I should ask you this question.

I feel like you have a better handle on what, from the past, what might be indicative of what's going to happen in the future. I mean, I'm not encouraged. Maybe if we break up Google into some of these parts, that may help. But like, is Google really going to stop being the most popular search engine in the world because they say they're a monopolist and they change some settings and it's not the default? No, it's still the best search engine in the world, unfortunately, for some people, unfortunately for other people who just don't care about certain things. So I'm not encouraged by that. I mean, there's suits against Apple.

There's a bunch of suits. I think certainly you can look at what the Europeans have done, and there's considerable good out of some of the European regulation, but then there's considerable bad, too. I mean, in terms of what the kind of products and innovation some of those users can actually get. So, look, I mean, I ask back to you, Karen, 10 years from now, are we still going to be talking about the same big four or five tech companies? They're going to control everything. Their whole point is to grow. And so, you know, I think these lawsuits, fine, but they're far too late and far too small. I think sometimes the federal government's too small to take on these

big tech companies, which will control every aspect of our lives going forward. I guess the one place, and again, I'll ask it to you, is OpenAI, right? This is a startup we saw kind of come out of nowhere, but yet they've got ish, right? Considerable wealth and money. Is it any different? Well, given Microsoft is its biggest investor or, you know, or that they tried to bring Microsoft and Apple on the board, they just struck an Apple deal. They can't live in a universe where Apple is not the gatekeeper for them, right? They don't have, I have no, this will be run by five companies, all of AI, the next era. They're buying up sports things,

they're buying up all kinds of media. Oliver, you're aware of this. They're buying up everything, right? And they have more money. Yeah, you talked about the AT&T-Time Warner deal and how that needed to happen to ensure that these companies can survive. And the reality is that they're buying up all those media rights now, right? Like Warner Brothers Discovery just lost sports rights and they're trying to get the Amazon sports rights because the NBA wants to be in business with Amazon. And, you know, you've seen them acquire NFL rights. These are the most valuable media rights there are. Right. Our sports right now, that's what's keeping people paying for for cable television and big tech is coming in and swooping in.

And I don't think realistically, like in 10, 15 years, like, you know, I think they're going to own most of these rights. You're going to be watching baseball on Apple or the NFL on Amazon. And that's just going to be the way it is because they have the money. And they not only have the money, but they also have the technology. So Amazon can target ads, right, very well when you're watching the NBA. And they can sell it to you on Amazon, and it will be at your front door.

This is where this is going. And companies like Warner Bros. Discovery or even Disney, they just can't compete against these companies. They're way smaller. They have way less resources. They have less technology. And Mickey Mouse is taking cocaine. Exactly. There you go. Just CNN is own.

To bring it back to the cocaine. To bring it back to Mickey Mouse cocaine, because I want to say it as much to drive Bob out here crazy. CNN is owned by Warner Brothers Discovery, where you just were. Its stock has dropped more than 65% since it merged with Discovery in 2002. They're cutting costs. They're dealing with talent fees and everything else.

And it's a really difficult challenge in trying to figure out where it's all going, obviously. If Warner Brothers Discovery is a company and goes under or has trouble, that means CNN, which is arguably the most iconic global news outlet, is going to be in trouble because CNN is a cash cow for Warner Brothers Discovery. But so when you look at CNN cuts, it's because they need to feed this corporate beast, which is in debt and it's struggling in this difficult landscape dominated by big tech. And so it's all connected, right?

And this is actually something I tried doing with my newsletter is pointing out there's so much connective tissue between what happens in Hollywood and Silicon Valley and news. They're all connected. And so anyway, CNN's problems are really, you can view them as CNN's problems, but that would be, I think, a mistake. It's part of a much larger

shift in the media landscape and the tech landscape. Yeah. Charlie, you had mentioned cable's fate, that nobody your age watches cable. And obviously, they've got to do some really significant changes, using CNN as an example, but all of them have the same problem. Can you talk about how to stop that? And when you talk to people in media, and I'd be curious what you think the strongest old media company is right now. Strongest old media, you mean aside from the New York Times? Yeah, I guess it's the New York Times then.

I think it's the New York Times then. I think it's the New York Times. I think that it's sort of interesting that like if you want to see and when I want to see Biden speaking and I want to see commentary on it, like I'm more likely to open my New York Times app. And I think CNN could definitely be that, but it's actually not right now. It also just seems like a whole song and dance to even get it up on my phone via YouTube TV. It's just like, not, feels sort of foreign to me, but. Yeah, you youngs don't have the time. No, I know. I mean, I've got plenty of time. I only watch CNN when Kara's on, so. Yeah, that's right. I don't even watch CNN when Kara's on. But thanks for the check. No, I'm teasing. You watch CNBC when I'm on. What? I don't. I don't.

NBC. You watch NBC when I'm on? No. No, I watch everything. Let me tell you, compared to most olds, I'm a young when it comes to media. I shifted a long time ago. When I was at the Wall Street Journal, they were mad at me. I said, I haven't picked up a print Wall Street Journal in 112 years.

And I don't know why anybody else would. And they got mad at me. I got a note from above about you shouldn't insult our medium. Wall Street Journal in 112 years. And I don't know why anybody else would. And they got mad at me. I got a note from above about, you shouldn't insult our medium. I said, it's not a medium anymore. Where do you live? You know, kind of stuff. You know, but keep turning your butter, Rupert. So when you think about this, where it's going, I love each of you. And then I have just a few more questions on what's happening with social media. I'm going to complete the circle of it. The most powerful media company right now, Oliver, you start.

I guess the most powerful traditional media company right now, I think you would say it's Disney. I mean, that seems to be what I would default to. But I think really the most powerful entities in our media world today are definitely big tech. And I would say it's probably like Google and Meta, right? Right. Apple, actually. Charlotte, who do you pick? I mean, I think Google if we're saying media more broadly. Joanna? Google, if we're saying media more broadly.

Joanna? I was going to say Google from the start because I think it was the recent stats about YouTube, right? I forget. I don't know. It's basically like nine out of ten people are watching YouTube every day. That's not the exact stat, but it felt like that. And then when you consider the fact that I still think most people are going to Google for news, even though they might not be clicking through because we, you know, as we know,

Google's zero and no one seems to be clicking through, but they're still getting headlines and that's fine for most people. Yeah. I guess Apple would be second, but. Yeah. It also depends how you define power. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. We'll be back in a minute. comes from Anthropic. You already know that AI is transforming the world around us, but lost in all the enthusiasm and excitement is a really important question. How can AI actually work for you? And where should you even start? Claude from Anthropic may be the answer. Claude is a next-generation AI assistant built to help you work more efficiently without sacrificing safety or reliability. Built to help you work more efficiently without sacrificing safety or reliability. Anthropic's latest model, Claude 3.5 Sonnet, can help you organize thoughts,

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It seems like he's being held as part of an investigation into Telegram for allegedly breaking French laws. And not the EU's Digital Services Act, like some people have speculated. It's surrounding pornography, child pornography and cyber crimes and things like that. They're very light on that. The app has become a hotbed of crime for years, and he has even bragged about how little he spends on content moderation. Well, turning himself into a right-wing free speech culture war. He also likes to work out a lot. We get to see a lot of his abs, unfortunately.

Although he's in good shape. Elon tweeted his defense of Pavel. POV, it's 2030 in Europe. You're being executed for liking a meme. As usual, the world's greatest drama queen outdid himself right there on that ridiculous tweet. I'd love each of you to sort of comment on what's happening. Let's start with you, Oliver, and then Charlotte and Joanna.

I think what's going on with the Telegram co-founder is interesting because it comes down, it seems like, to content moderation, or at least in part to content moderation or lack thereof. And you've seen a lot of these huge tech companies really

start divesting in content moderation. You know, after the 2016 election, there was a big thing about like, we're going to moderate content. And now it's going the opposite direction. Even Mark Zuckerberg said, I think this week in that letter to the House that they were pressured to censor bad COVID information from the White House and that was a mistake. And so they are very much, I think, the pendulum is swinging the other direction and it's away from content moderation. And so that raises a lot of questions.

How liable are they for what happens on their platforms if they're not moderating those platforms? And Elon Musk obviously isn't. And a lot of other billionaires are much rather, I think, avoid doing so. It's costly and it's tricky and it costs, you know, it's politically like threading a tiny needle. So, you know, this raises? They stop banks. They stop – even if it wasn't your fault, if you're facilitating that kind of criminal behavior. In this case, he scoffs at the huge amounts of unencrypted CSAM on the – which is child pornography on the on what's happening on Instagram, right? Right. Absolutely. So, like, this is an issue that I think is – obviously, Telegram's the worst. I get it. I just think Mark can at least point to efforts to take down these things. Exactly, yeah. But this is a problem.

There are a lot of problems. Sure, sure. In content moderation and child exploitation and a lot of drug – you know, there's – Yes. A whole bunch of Congress people just wrote Mark Zuckerberg about drug trafficking on his platforms. And so this is a massive issue. And, you know, I think it raises a lot of questions about how liable these owners are. And Amazon. Amazon has similar issues on other bad products. Charlotte? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Ben Smith had a good column a few days ago talking about how his arrest sort of underscored the end of this utopian vision of social media about these like new open digital spaces being, you know, the place. I mean, same with Twitter. It was like the town square. And it's obviously not that.

I think, I mean, I know Macron said it's not political. I understand why there's a lot of opposition to that. A lot of people think it is political. But, yeah, I mean, I think it will depend how actually involved he was with the ideas. But I also think if you preside over one of these companies, you have to know that you're going to be held responsible. Well, no, they don't think that. Right. Well, I think you should. Yeah, I do too. Joanna? I agree they don't think that. Right. Well, I think you should. Yeah, I do too. Joanna? I agree with a lot of that. I think it also does come back to the fact that all of these platforms, I mean, look, you can create the differences between X and Meta and Telegram

and TikTok, all of these. But ultimately, these are platforms where we have no control. These companies also will say there's limited control that they have, right? They've built these things that they don't have control over. And we've been talking about this with AI right now, where all the companies are building things, they're not sure they have control. Well, how much control have we actually had over the algorithms that have powered these platforms? And when you bring it back to thinking about some of the legacy media, it's the total opposite where you've got companies that hold their media companies, and they have full control of what they publish. And that's the, I mean, I think that's the dichotomy. So I'm going to end on two things. One is TikTok, the other is Elon, obviously,

and what they're doing there. Elon's purchase is the worst buyout for banks since the Great Recession. I think it hardly managed. They've left him with $13 billion in bad loans. I don't think it stops Elon in any way whatsoever. He's certainly in the news a lot. There's not a story you don't write about him. There was just one on his religion, which I don't give a fuck. him. There was just one on his religion, which I don't give a fuck. But he seems to have become a media just written about almost constantly. And I think he is important. So there is that, but there's a lot of other important things. Where do you assess this as a media and tech company going forward? X? And like, where is it going? You know, I don't know. I mean, it's difficult to say. I think that it's certainly lost a lot of influence that it once had. I think a lot of journalists like yourself, I think I noticed that you haven't been on there in several weeks. No, months. Or months, months. I haven't been on there in over a year. Oliver, I don't like being called a c sitting on there and it's basically like, you know, being a punching bag, right, for these people and that Elon has elevated on that platform.

And so I don't see why I should create content and wealth for him and I don't actually see why media companies who he repeatedly smears should continue creating value and doing – putting their journalism on his platform. It just seems like something I don't want to partake in. But where does it go from here? I mean, it's difficult to tell. It seems like it's becoming or has become a far right or right wing fever swamp of sorts where Elon gets to feed his every day and talk to these really far right figures. It's still a thing because people have the habit of going on Twitter and they have a hard time, I think, letting go of their followings and threads has really Adam Asari has really just like constantly like shot himself in the foot by saying the wrong things all the time and not articulating what his vision for the platform is in a real way. way um so i don't know i i think i guess broadly speaking i think the the world of like the internet where you were on twitter posting these micro developments i think that is kind of going away i think that's kind of fading and i think you're seeing a retreat back to maybe i just say

blogs but they're like newsletters now they're a little more thoughtful people are going to home pages and they're looking for hand curated content in a more thoughtful way, I think. How do you look at that, Charlotte? Because the last people to leave will be media reporters and political reporters. Yeah, I mean, I respect that you guys are no longer on there. I still am. I still find it useful. I still feel like I get a lot of engagement on my stories through it. I feel like I get a lot of news through it still. Obviously, I'm wading through a lot more bullshit on my way there and a lot more garbage. But I still do find it to be like an essential social media platform for me. I was going to say for better or for worse, largely for worse. I think, you know, I will say there have been a few, you know, speaking of AI, there have been a few images that have been on my newsfeed lately and on X.

And there will be, not always, but sometimes things attach to them being like, this is a fake image. This happened at, you know, I don't think they happen a lot enough, but at least there's a little bit of that. But you still find it essential to use right now. I do. I do. Unfortunately, I do. Have you tried, though, not using it, Charlotte, for like a few weeks and just seeing how you can live by just checking New York Times homepages and then just not, like, I think part of it

is an addiction, right? A habit. Like, it's difficult to break the habit. But once you do, I guess I'm curious, have you tried, like, breaking the habit? Yeah, I mean, i feel like during the whenever this was last year when everyone was like twitter is dead or or whatnot i felt like i i was very much not on it uh for you know not intentionally but it just wasn't i didn't feel like it was super relevant and people were on it but i feel like now i do use threads i just don't feel like i have

the same you know relationship with in terms of like followers and people I follow and how much they're posting. And also I feel like I still get DMs on Twitter with tips and it's just still where it seems like people in our world are. That's the thing. I mean, like I'm sure I could get news elsewhere. It's less about that. No, I'm in the same boat as you, Charlotte. I have cut back considerably. I do not check it as much, but I do check it for news. Like, I do find that developments happen

there. I mean, look at the DNC last week. I mean, I didn't see, you know, look, we could talk about Beyonce and Taylor Swift rumors, but like that wasn't, for better, it wasn't happening on threads, but it was like breaking news all over Twitter. It's like you were part of that, you were seeing that happen. And that happens in tech as well right now. Like I see a lot of the news break there and then I'm seeing it on threads. I try to compare them both a lot side by side, but I'm trying to spend considerably less time and definitely share less on X. But I have, I don't feel like I, Oliver, to your point,

I don't have to look at it, but it does help to look at it. Yeah, interesting. Look at the Joe Biden resignation. I mean, that all happened on, that was the first place he posted was on X. Well, he posted first, I think, on X and then a minute later on Threads. Very second slate.

Also, like, why Joe Biden campaign? Why did you guys decide to give Elon Musk the exclusive or like the first scoop? Like, I don't understand actually the decision making in these. And that's what I'm saying. Like, look, there might have been moments later, but like this is where the priority has been for campaigns, for news networks, for the places that have driven the breaking news conversation on X. They're still going first tax. But Harris is heavy on threads, Instagram and TikTok, though.

Yeah, but Zuckerberg and Masseri, they could be doing a lot more to support people. They could be saying, come to threads, you know, like making calls. They could have teams like reaching out to media companies and saying, how do we get you to post more on here? We want you guys on here. And instead, you see Adam Masseri say, we actually don't want news. But actually, no, we kind of do want some news.

We want sports news. We want fashion news. We want tech news, but not politics news. But we don't know what that is exactly either. Adam, call us. Call us.

We like you better than Elon. Okay, last very quick question. Overhyped person or company in tech or media and underhyped, something you're really paying attention to. Okay, let me think. I've rendered you useless.

All right, I'll start. How about that? Overhyped in tech or media, Elon Musk. Underhyped, Elon Musk in big trouble if Kamala Harris wins. Yeah, see, that's what I was thinking. Something that's the same, both. Overhyped? Making it big on Substack? Uh-huh. I think that's like a tiny sliver

of people. I don't think that's a realistic path to journalism. Okay. Underhyped? Print news. Print media. Oh. I love that. It's having a comeback. Okay.

It is. Is it? All right. Yeah. We'll take it. The Cut is putting out its first solo magazine. All right. The Onion's coming back.

I think people feel like it's this anti-social media. It has sort of like a renewed. Fancy curated magazines are coming back. I like it. I like it, Charlotte. Oliver, give it a try. And you too, Joanna. This young woman has just surpassed you.

Joanna, you go first. All right. So overhyped, blaming smartphones for everything. Underhyped, blaming smartphones for everything. All right. Oliver? I would say overhyped to me is the television news anchor. I think that we pay way too much attention to the television news anchor, and I think that's

a dying medium, obviously. Underhyped, maybe local news. There's just not enough attention paid to local news, and it's actually the place that most people I think interact with the news on a daily basis. Good. I like all that. I have one more underhyped. Underhyped is kids tuning out of all this. My both sons use social media and everything else a whole lot less than they used to, putting it down a lot more. It's really interesting. I'm watching them carefully because they were quite online and now they're not so much. They're tired of it and it's noisy to them. So we they're not so much. They're tired of it. And it's noisy to them. So we'll see where that goes.

I guess we could also say, same for TikTok. TikTok overhyped in terms of all of the everything. And underhyped, too, for its impact on everything. Right. Agreed. All right. Thank you guys so much. I really appreciate it.

This was a fascinating discussion. This was a blast. Thanks, Cara. Bye, Cara. See you next. Thank you, Cara. On with Cara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Kateri Yochum, Megan Burney, Jolie Myers, and Gabriela Bielo. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher, Kate Furby, and Kaylin Lynch. Our engineers are Rick Kwan, Fernando Arruda, and Aaliyah Jackson.

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