On with Kara Swisher - What Rupert Murdoch and Succession’s Logan Roy Have in Common (and Don’t)

Episode Date: April 10, 2023

Today, after Kara and Nayeema discuss what the Dominion defamation lawsuit might mean for Rupert Murdoch and News Corp, we turn to a fictional media story of Logan Roy and HBO’s Succession. Our guests are Brian Cox, series creator Jesse Armstrong and director Mark Mylod. SPOILER ALERT: there are lots of spoilers in this episode, starting at about 10 mins in so go watch the show first.  Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on Twitter @karaswisher and @nayeema. You can listen to other episodes of the Succession companion podcast here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Ready, set, grow. Go to ConstantContact.ca and start your free trial today. Go to ConstantContact.ca for your free trial. ConstantContact.ca. Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is Rupert Murdoch, and I'm single and ready to mingle. Just kidding. That's a terrible thought. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm single and ready to mingle. Just kidding. That's a terrible thought.

This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Naeem Araza. His engagement is off to Anne Leslie Smith. She would have been, what, the fifth wife? I don't know. Is that right? King Henry VIII. Except none are beheaded. Not literally, but figuratively. We do not have any Murdochs here today, but we do have Brian Cox of HBO's Succession fame on the show today, as well as the showrunner, Jesse Armstrong, and director Mark Mylod. We're going to play a special episode of the Companion podcast. But before we get there, let's talk quickly about the real world of the Murdochs and News Corp, a world you know well. Very well. Although, just to be clear, the Succession people say it's not based on Rupert Murdoch, but it's kind of based on Rupert Murdoch. It is based on a lot of people, just to be clear.

There's Sumner Redstone in there and all kinds of other moguls, but it does feel very Murdoch-y. Allegedly. After riveting excerpts of depositions ran in these motions for summary judgments in the Dominion defamation lawsuit, the $1.6 billion suit is actually going to trial, as Jeremy Peters, a New York Times journalist, predicted when he came on our show. Proceedings are slated to start next week on April 17th. But just days ago, a judge said that Rupert Murdoch and his son Lachlan can be compelled to testify that there's no out. And folks like Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, et cetera, can too. The Murdochs, I think we're hoping because they gave film deposition, they wouldn't have to come back. Is this going to be a game changer? I think a lot of people now think they're probably going to lose.

And it's going to occupy their time. And, you know, Murdoch had hoped to get out of it by pretending he was aged. But, of course, he just, you know, got engaged again and then unengaged. And he's obviously fine to testify. Lachlan Murdoch has no excuse. And so it'll be interesting because the judge seemed very, not very open to their arguments about what they were doing about opinion versus fact and everything else. It's not a great place for them to be in. And it just is one in a long line of lawsuits that are coming for this company.

Yeah. The judge seemed to think there was enough evidence to conclude that the statements about Dominion are incorrect, which we knew. And the question now will go to the jury of whether or not Fox knew or didn't want to know, were reckless in not wanting to know. Or didn't have malice, malicious intent. I think that's the intent, as in most cases, including with this Trump one, it's intent. And the emails are pretty egregious. It sort of shows a propaganda machine in action, not a news organization. And so that's going to be, it'll be interesting to see what kind of jury they could see because everyone has an opinion. But I think most people sort of know when people are like cooking the books kind of thing.

I think the question is, are people going to be paying attention? Because look at January 6th and those hearings, right? And some people would say they're extremely important. Others would say that was political theater. Others would say, what January 6th hearings? I think they know they may not be paying 100% attention. They might think it's theatrical and not. You know, we'll see.

We'll see if the Fox audience cares. And if it's ruled against them, it's not a great thing. It's just not a great thing. Yeah. The interesting thing about what we've learned from all these depositions that have come out for the Fox News trial is how decisions are made and how involved various people at the top were. And they came into this conundrum where Rupert Murdoch simultaneously saying he kind of wants to make Trump a non-person and irrelevant in some emails and is also noting that people are leaving Fox News for Newsmax and that's not possible.

Yeah, they panicked. All he cares about is the money. He wants to, he doesn't care what he does to tarnish this country or bring it down. Shocking, Cara. I'm sorry. Just look at these emails. I mean, look, lots of news organizations make mistakes and everything like that, but this is just like, we hate him, but let's use him, including Tucker Carlson and the others. Like, she's crazy. Let's get her on. Like, who does that? Like, nobody. Nobody really does. And I know people think bad things about the media, but I was like, whoa, wow, I can't believe all the things you're saying. And of course I did. I thought they thought this behind the scenes, but it's a propaganda machine is what it is for Rupert Murdoch's economic interests. That's pretty much it. That's what it looks like from these documents.

Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly. In our previous conversations about Rupert, you've said to me that he's a very, you walk out of the room backwards when you've been in rooms with him. Yeah, that's right. I just never know when he's going to go for the weapon. So cat-like. I think you said he's a very crafty person. He ultimately comes out on top every time. Not every time. I think this is it. I think this is, look at what happened to Sumner Redstone at the end.

You know, not with a bang, but a whimper. And I think that's what's happening here. At some point, a fox runs through its tricks and he's run through his tricks on this one. Is he going to play a vonkular old man for hell? Oh, he is very vonkular. You know the things that everyone was ready to talk about how he, you know,

look how involved he was. Every encounter I had with him at the Wall Street Journal when I was there, and there were many actually, were very sharp, very savvy, and very deep into the news. He is very hands-on. And there's one thing you can't deny, just like Logan Roy, he is brilliant at what he does. And it's also appalling. And so it's really amazing how much he's involved. And I was always, I wasn't surprised after a while, and I wasn't surprised by this. This is from the New York Times. Those who have worked for Mr. Murdoch describe his approach in conveying his wishes as something of a light touch. He doesn't dictate demands so much as suggest and imply through his observations. Yeah, I think he was pretty direct.

Everyone assumes, like, do that, that kind of thing. He wasn't like that. He's just, he's a very canny observer of the news. And he came in in one meeting with Walt and I who had with him, and he had circled all kinds of things. He goes, you know, all these things every day, we've got to stop putting stuff in the paper people know and have things they don't know. And I, and he was sort of pen or pencil had circled them. And I was sort of like, he's correct. This is correct. That's the problem. So he was always, that is news. Yeah. He's a very clever operator of media organizations. And I'm going to, again,

I'll say media organizations, because what he's doing is some entertainment, some political manipulation, some news, I guess, especially the gossipy kind, but 100% in Rupert Murdoch's interests. Yeah. As Shiv Roy said about her dad, Logan, he's dangerous. Well, that's obvious. So, okay, let's get to the show, Succession. I know that the showrunners like to disclaim that this is not entirely based on the Murdochs, but the Murdoch family in News Corp has been a loose or not so loose inspiration for Succession. How closely do you think this show hues to the Murdoch family drama?

A little bit. You know, I don't think some of the stranger things, I think, are not like them. I think, actually, Rupert's very charming. He's not mean like Logan Roy cuts to the bone. Oh, my God. You'd find Murdoch rather charming and avuncular. That's why I call him Uncle Satan.

There's a couple of moments early on in the season where Logan has kind of exerted his influence, sometimes in direct ways and sometimes in indirect ways. So a direct way would be when he's sitting alone in episode one of season four in the middle of the night watching ATN and then calls Sid to talk about the broadcast and doesn't like what's in the air and give very specific notes. A more subtle one is when his assistant turned girlfriend Carrie is vying for a job with this kind of ridiculous audition reel where she's smiling through a school shooting report. And he wants first to have her in and then wants to plant the seed that although he wasn't involved with it, she probably shouldn't be on the air. It's much more indirect. So which one do you think is more representative of Rupert Murdoch? Probably the second. The indirect.

Things happen the way he wants them to happen. I don't think he orders people around. That's not my experience. But he's very clear what he wants, and it's very clear he's in charge. Yeah. And that is, there's no question about that. And I think it's just, the Logan character is truly the loneliest person on earth. I don't think that's the case with Rupert Murdoch.

There's one kind of scene where Logan Roy comes out and he's super inspiring. And this is in episode two of season four where he's standing on paper boxes to tell the ATN staff he needs them tougher and scrappier and more like pirates. Pirates, whatever. This seems to be based on Rupert Murdoch. He did. In 2007, standing on top of these paper boxes at the Wall Street Journal. Were you there in 2007 when he did that? I wasn't in New York, but I remember it. I remember people talking about it.

And he did that. He stood on the boxes. Was it inspiring to people? I don't think so. No, he wasn't. But he came to our Code Conference several times and also was on stage there. And he's more of a quiet thinker.

He's not a big rallying. That's not him. No, that's not him at all. Not him. So Kara hosts the Succession Companion podcast for HBO. You've done that last season. You're doing it this season for the show's final season. Why do you think HBO wanted you to host it?

You know, I've had a long history of doing stuff with HBO on their shows, especially Silicon Valley. The show, I was an advisor to it. When Game of Thrones was around, I hosted a big event with them in Silicon Valley with the two series showrunners and also George R.R. Martin. So I've had a long running relationship with them doing events and things together.

So it's just continuing. Yeah, I thought you were going to say because it's a show about power. And it really is. And you have some insight into what billionaires and how lonely the lives of billionaires are. I've seen all these lonely billionaires. And so, yeah, it's just I love the show. I'm a fan.

I'm a super fan, like a lot of people. Well, today we're going to hear an episode from the Succession Companion podcast. First, we're going to hear from series creator Jesse Armstrong and director Mark Mylod. podcast. First, we're going to hear from series creator Jesse Armstrong and director Mark Mylod. And then we'll hear your conversation with Brian Cox, who plays the one and only, the inimitable Logan Roy. But before we go any further, this is when we get into spoiler territory. So if you have not watched last night's episode, episode 403, which aired on Sunday, 9th of April, turn us off. Off. And come back when you have. Yeah. And don't yell at us. We're not going to, we don't care if you yell at us because we've warned you. So if you keep going and we warned you, so sorry.

It's not our fault. Okay. Now that those people have left who haven't heard the episode, should we tell them, Kara? Yes. What happened? Logan Roy needs to be succeeded. R.I.P. R.I.P.

Logan Roy. That is the big news. Let's take a quick break and we'll be back with the conversation with Jesse Armstrong, Mark Mylod, and then Logan Roy, aka Brian Cox, back from the dead. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting,

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Trust me. They think he's gone. They think he's gone. They think he's gone. What happened? What do you mean? They think Dad died. What? Yeah.

No. I'm sorry. No. No, I can't have that. Welcome to the official Succession podcast from HBO. I'm Kara Swisher, and the moment we've been dreading has finally arrived. My dad's dying. I'm just going to do facts, okay? What if this is a drill? What if it's a big fucking test? This nation has lost a passionate champion and an American titan, and we lost a beloved father. Thank you.

American Titan, and we lost a beloved father. Thank you. Thank God I have a few very special guests to unpack this episode that is destined for TV history. Series creator Jesse Armstrong, director Mark Mylod, and later, Logan Roy himself, back from the dead, the legendary Brian Cox. He'd be a lot better off if he didn't love his children. He'd be a happier man. But he loves his children and it's a conflict. He can't deal with the pain of it. The fact that he loves his children and they don't honor him. Episode three, titled Connor's Wedding, was written by Jesse and directed by Mark. We open with Logan blowing off Connor's wedding.

Instead, he's headed to Sweden to meet with Lucas Mattson. The rest of the Roy kids are on a massive boat when they get a call that Logan has collapsed on his private jet. And just like that, he's gone. And while others scramble over the fate of the company, Kendall, Roman, and Schiff come together to face a future without their father. We are highly liable to misinterpretation. to face a future without their father. We are highly liable to misinterpretation.

So what we do today will always be what we did the day our father died. Joining me now to talk about this episode is Jesse Armstrong and Mark Mylod. Thank you both for being here. Holy heck, I have to start by asking, why did you kill Logan Roy now in episode three of this final season? It could have been a series finale moment for many. Jesse?

Yeah, it's a good question. And we talked about it a lot in the writer's room. And I guess there's one noble and one ignoble. So the ignoble one is like, because it would be surprising. We try not to, you know, have those considerations like top of the pile, but they do exist of like, what will people be expecting? What would one expect in a TV show? But the one which was much more overriding, and I think is the noble one, is because we wanted to see what it was like after he was gone. And it felt like, you know, you followed the kids and you'd be really interested to see

what happened to their lives once he was gone. And we wanted the bulk of a season to explore that. So the logic then became compelling. It was ignoble, but it worked. So Mark, it really surprised me that Logan died off screen. We don't get a big moment of him collapsing. He dies unceremoniously. Talk about doing it this way and from directing it from this point of view.

Well, that was central to the script, Cara. When Jesse first told me about the plan, quite a long time before we started shooting the season, I think it was always in his head that it would happen off screen because big events don't happen in a perfect way, do they? of taking away all the kind of television cliches of the kind of perfect TV death that I thought was really brilliant. I love that idea of it, of us, the audience, being hijacked in exactly the same way that the siblings are when they receive the news. So we're immediately kind of parachuted into their emotional experience.

Because they try to bring the phone up to him. Because you see little bits of him, right? When you were doing that, you saw the top of his head. I was really fascinated by the choices you made in terms of visuals. Yes, it was funny. Jesse and I both had exactly the same, I think, visual instinct on that when we started shooting those sequences on the plane. I felt oddly kind of squeamish, which is not normally something I think I'm guilty of. With showing the character at all, we made a choice to show him once quite specifically

and, you know, parts of his torso at certain points with the shock treatment. But yeah, it felt oddly kind of disrespectful in some way. Mm-hmm, 100%. And then putting the phone next to him was, which I've had friends who've done that when something like that has happened. Was there ever a version of this final season where Logan didn't die?

No, that was always coded into it. Once it was decided it was going to be the final season, which was decided, this decision was pretty early. And also where it fell in the season was pretty early. Occasionally when I was going crazy about what the end would be, I would think, oh, wow, most tragedies end with the death at the end. And we'd go back and look at that as a shape. But it really was this feeling of wanting to see how they would cope afterwards that was the prevailing one. But he was always going to die. It felt like that had to happen. So, Mark, tell me about the cast reaction during the first table read when you read the script together for the first time. As you can imagine, it was pretty emotional.

Yeah, two of the, I think, most emotional table reads I've ever been involved in were this episode, episode three, and our final episode, which was me and Jesse were barely holding it together in that one. Yeah, it was very emotional and obviously, you know, specifically emotional for Brian as well and the sense of, you know, losing our number one on the call sheet. Did you tell him before, either of you?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. As soon as it was really set, I spoke to Mark and other key collaborators to double check it was like the right idea. And I didn't want to fuck it up and tell Brian and then have to retract. So I made like really, really sure that it was the definite right shape of the season and it was the last one and everything. And then, yeah, I took a sort of soulful march up from the writer's room in Victoria to Soho to have lunch with Brian and tell him. And yeah, I was very sad and sort of a bit humanly nervous about telling him. Oh, I bet. I would be terrified. Yeah, I think I was terrified. I think that's a better word. But you're coming back in flashbacks. Flashbacks, flashbacks.

Yeah, I thought I was a cool cucumber, but I was like, why do I feel like I want to go to the toilet and cry? That was the correct reaction, just so you know that. Mark, you're no stranger to directing intense succession episodes, but do you feel added responsibility to get this one right? Yes, in short, yes. A huge responsibility. Yeah. And fear and that feeling like I needed to use the bathroom. Yes. A lot. But once we found the central location, the boat, and started to block that out, then the fear is quickly trumped by just excitement, really,

and an odd kind of sense of being in a desperate hurry to get it on film, to feel like it's safe, that it's in the can, you know. So that excitement and that adrenaline quickly takes over. What scenes are you worried about pulling off, each of you? Like, what moments were essential to get right? Jesse, why don't you go first? Oh, yeah, That's a good

question. And it's a better question for Mark, because I think once I've written it and I've kind of done the table read, which has gone OK, and I've got notes from my key collaborators, in a weird way, the sort of that terrible weight of like, oh, God, are we going to pull this off? It goes off my shoulders and it goes directly onto Mark Mylod's shoulders. Thanks, Jesse. What was the scene you were most worried about, Mark? Scene 11, as it will henceforth be known, which was a very long scene. It begins with, I think, Sarah's character Shiv going upstairs from the main party area into the VIP area where the other Roy siblings are.

the main party area into the VIP area where the other Roy siblings are. And it goes right through them receiving the phone call from Tom, learning of Logan's sickness at that stage and trying to work out. And it goes right through up to and including Kendall stepping out onto the rear deck and calling Frank and Frank saying, I think he's gone. And that sequence, again, I think Jesse and I, we do obviously disagree sometimes, but on this, we were both on the same page that we wanted it to feel like it was all in real time. It felt like every time that you cut away from the character or kind of jump forward in time,

you lost, you kind of took your foot off the gas. And it felt to me with the camera, that the camera had to be sadistic, really. It had to be unflinching and just keep looking at the pain. It was a 10-minute sequence in the middle of the episode where Kendall, Roman, and Chip take turns saying goodbye to their dad or their parents. Let's listen to a moment of it. You're by his ear. You can go now. You're talking to him now. Oh. Oh. Okay. Hey. Hey, Dad. Uh, hello. Um, you're gonna be okay. And I'm sorry, is he dead?

I don't know if he's dead. Is he fucking dead? I don't know. Tom? Tom? Hey, hey. Is he even alive? I don't know, honey. Are you just being nice to me? Is he gone?

He's, uh, I don't know. We don't know. We don't know. Okay, I'm putting you back there, okay? Uh, okay. Okay. Well, um, I don't know what to do whoa what was the energy like on the set that day tell me about filming the scene mark i was pretty electric as you can imagine talk about the mechanisms mark because you had to do a number of things right you had to have cameras reload and

all sorts of we shoot on film so it's not like just digital where you can roll and roll so that you had to have them reload didn't you as they went yeah there was a i've been chatting with kieran and we uh at some point one of us he claims it was me i think it was him um said wouldn't it be good if we could shoot this whole sequence without reloading if we could just shoot it as one and if we did that it would have been to achieve it we had to shoot i think it was timing out to 27 minutes 28 minutes at the time which uh and as Jesse says you know even with thousand foot camera loads we can only shoot 10 minutes at a time with the two cameras it seemed like a really great idea to shoot the whole sequence um so once we shot it all slightly more piecemeal, i.e. in 10-minute

sections, I think we shot it over a day and a half maybe. At the end of that, I spoke with the cast and said, can you take a two-hour break? And then we're going to run the whole thing, which was met with trepidation, but also enthusiasm. So they went away and Patrick and Ethan and Gregor our camera operators we got our heads together and worked out a system whereby to make sure there was at least one camera rolling all the time and we hid replacement magazines around the set and other camera bodies so that they could do quick changes and in that way we could go downstairs and upstairs and go everywhere we wanted and knowing that we'd be in a certain place after the role ran out, and then one camera would quickly change and reload. And it felt like we were kind of going live on national television.

We did it. We only did it once. And the results were, in my opinion, electric. Yeah, absolutely. Well, sometimes live does that, right? Sometimes live does that. It gives people a sense of urgency. What kind of things do you have to do to help the actors get into the raw emotional place? If I'm really honest, nothing at all. Not getting in the way is as much a part of my directing Bible as anything.

They're so smart. They're so talented. They know their characters so well. They're so committed to finding the moment. In this case, it was very clear to everybody specifically what the raw emotional tone was. So it was really just setting the environment for them to go and to give them as much freedom as possible to explore that. Was there actually someone on the other end of the phone that they were talking with? Oh yeah, almost all of that, right Mark, is live. The actors are very generous with each other

and they get on the line. And we've even used that in the production sound as often. Right, Mark, a lot of it is just through the phone and you have that weirdly distorted thing, which we all know from having important conversations. So, yeah, that's right, isn't it, Mark? Yeah, as you say, it's been a kind of creed of the show from the start that when there is any important conversations, the other actors will make themselves available.

In this case, Matthew was back home in London, so he was having to be up at all sorts of odd hours and late into the night. Saying I'm putting it by his ear. Yeah, almost fantastic. So the kids have been thinking about their father dying for years and possibly wishing him bad. Yet in this scene, they seem completely blindsided by it, which feels true to many people experience grief. What conversations about grieving or death did you have behind the scenes, Jesse? Did you pull from any of your own experiences? In the writer's room, it was cathartic. There was a number of conversations about different experiences of these terrible moments.

And then a lot of what would happen to these particular characters, I guess, and feeling the awful mechanism by which for public and semi-public figures, a private moment becomes a public moment. I guess that's the seesaw in the middle of the episode, which is grim and fascinating, I think, to see the balance shift. Yeah, absolutely. Because the public part is just as important. And Kendall refers to that.

You know, we're going to be known for this for the rest of our lives. So let's talk about how each of the kids react. They are all so distinct. Kendall wants the facts. Shiv falls apart. And Roman just isn't straight up denial. Let's listen to this. He has gone.

I think he has died. Well, we don't know that. Sure, I get it. But, like, I think they know. Okay, okay, maybe. Maybe is all. Roman, I think you have to accept that... Okay, I'm not, like, saying anything. All I'm saying is that we actually don't know. That's it. That's all I'm saying. Okay, right, well, yes, but you sound delusional.

I sound... What am I, out-fucking-voted here? No, Rome, I'm just saying, come on, you know that... What? They know. No. No, they don't. He's... No.

It's okay. He's dead. He's fucking dead. Okay, well, there's no need to fucking say that, right? Until we know there's no goddamn... What's the point of keep on saying it? All I'm saying, I'm not being crazy. I'm saying a fact.

I'm saying we don't know. And until we do know, it's not a very nice thing to say, is it? Okay. So fucking stop. Talk about that denial, Jesse. He couldn't bear the thought of him dying. And what does that say? What were you trying to communicate there? Just felt true. If you follow the character back through the season, you'll probably, he's the most, he's unable to think about his dad's death often when it's brought up. And also there's something true there, I think, which occurred to me, which is you just, until someone said it, it's hard to believe. And also there is a sort of Schroediger's cat element of like, until a doctor's seen him and said it, weird things happen in the world, especially with technology. And it is

legitimate to say he hasn't been pronounced dead. So please stop saying it. I feel like I'm on Roman side at that point. Yeah. Although technically, technically he's not dead, right? And that's what you're saying. I guess. And it's hard to believe these things, right? And that's what we see maybe at the end of the episode is him having to face up to that until you've experienced them it can feel very odd and disembodied yeah you don't want it to be a thing uh mark classic succession transportation moves in this episode huge boat they move locations on this boat then they get on a little boat there's a helicopter there's a plane uh talk about why you keep on the move besides they're fabulously wealthy and this is what fabulous wealthy people do is go from plane to car to boat to this and that.

That's really the rhythms that Jesse writes with. But my contribution to that on the percussion side is the mechanics, the kinetic energy of the episode. And obviously, you know, we're very still and very deliberately claustrophobic, both on the aircraft with Matthew and co. And of course, in that upper cabin, as we get into the machinations of, you know, how to announce the death, you know, I felt and obviously Jesse felt in the writing that at a certain point, we needed to break out and physically transport the characters to the airport. And I always grasp onto those moments to take a big lung full of figurative air and allow Nick Patel's brilliant talents to come to the fore for a moment.

And so it's really a question of actually following the logic of how would those characters get from there to there in the shortest period of time and how can we make it visually interesting. You were very keen, Mark, to get the ship moving. I was like, why wouldn't they get a word to the captain? And you were like, no, no, no, it's got to leave. It's got to leave.

And then eventually I persuaded myself, well, maybe it gets confused and the message gets lost in the bottle. And then, so I think it was a very good idea and it trapped them even more. Yeah, exactly. So it feels fitting that Logan dies on the day where the family should have all been together,

but Logan's flying off for the business meeting. If Logan knew this was his last day, do you think he would have gone to Connor's wedding instead or just the door they went through? I think this is how we would like to go. This is actually a very happy episode because, you know, he's on a private plane flying to do the biggest deal. He's got out at exactly the right moment and he goes off pretty quickly and painlessly and his kids whispering in his ear that they loved him. I think it's an absolutely, it's a very happy episode. Yeah. Oh, okay. Happy.

We should change the soundtrack and actually to reflect that. You put the kazoo on there, didn't you, Mark? I wanted the kazoo. You didn't fuck me in the edit and take that kazoo off. So his decision not to come to a wedding reminds me of something he said to Kendall way back in the pilot. He tells Kendall he won't be CEO because he came to his 80th birthday instead of closing a deal. And here we see Logan choosing business over family and then ultimately death.

Yeah, and I think there's a nice scene, isn't it, at the end of the previous episode when Roman's asking him what about going to the wedding and Brian just did this little shrug. And yeah, I think that's what he prioritizes and that's how he is. Yeah. Shrug, shruggy. When Logan dies, the business doesn't stop. And that's another part of this episode is the business and they have to make the announcement and how they make the announcement, the chaos around that. Cause there's a lot of chefs in this situation, but Shiv, Kendall and Roman are not interested in the business for once. We see them bonding as siblings, like this moment before their press conference. Let's listen to this. Are we going to be okay? Yeah. Yeah. We'll be okay. You're not going to be okay. Well, you're not going to be okay. You're not going to be okay. You're fucked. You're fucked. You're totally fucked. You're very fucked.

You're fucked. You're fucked. You're totally fucked. You're very fucked. Well, that was sweet. Is this the closest they've ever been from your perspective? Yeah, they're pretty close at the end of the last season as they shared big confidences, but I think it is. And that feels right, doesn't it?

I mean, sometimes families can fracture at these kind of moments, but these kids come together and I think I think that felt right it's lovely when we do get those moments we you know that one of the things I loved about the start of season four was that we did get to see a totally new dynamic that we really haven't seen I think since the boathouse in maybe the last or the second last episode of season one where you just got a sense of um the thing that can never be a real kind of return to innocence for them as kids, almost the childhood they could never have. There was a lovely simplicity to that dynamic that I loved. And you want it to stay and you want it to go on and for that to

be their lives. But, you know, that won't happen. No, no, not at all. And just to talk about the statement they gave to the press, one of the things it was sort of like kids playing at business. You know what I mean? Like, this is what we need to do. They seem to be chaotic in terms of the thing to do. Talk about that scene and how you wrote it like that. Is that their way of staying connected to their father after he's gone? In the writer's room, we looked at quite a lot. Ghislaine Maxwell, after her father died, she gave a statement in, I think it was the Canary Islands where the boat went back to. Here's a British media mogul who died falling off or jumping off the back of his yacht. And Ghislaine needs no introduction at this point. Ghislaine now needs no

introduction, right? But at that point was just his favoured daughter. So that was something of a model. But yeah, it's that moment where they have to go public. I think they do not a bad job. She wants to express some public sentiment, but they also need to make that statement to calm the markets. And they also need to put a flag in the ground if they don't want to get excluded from the business by the Logan's lieutenants. So at the end of the episode, Shiv, Roman and Kendall go their separate ways. Why do they leave each other? That's a good question. It just felt right that maybe they could have gone home and maybe it's a problem of luxury that you have your apartment. And I guess the psychological thing for me is Roman needs to see it to believe it. The other two don't and rather do not want to see it, which is a choice that they make. And I guess once that happened, there's a split. But maybe it's a fast forward to the sad inevitability that however much you get bonded by these moments, that then you have to face life alone.

So maybe it's a fast forward to that. So Mark, the one Roy kid who wasn't emotionally alone at the end is Connor because he and Willow get married. They aren't mourning, they're celebrating. Talk about that scene because it was a wonderful shot. That was a great shot. And it was sort of, you didn't see it that up close, but what were you trying to communicate there?

Really actually a triumph of this relationship. I get actually quite emotional when I remember the first episode I directed, the second episode of season one. With which this episode shares some similarities, right? Yeah. And Justine, who plays Willa, her character walked into the room for the first time, which was just a very funny idea to me at that time. And then gradually it became this portrait of a kind of modern marriage emerged or modern relationship. They emerged quite a harsh take on it probably, but I became very invested in their relationship as I think, you know, many of the audience have. And so, yeah, for them to find a way

through all those obstacles to make that choice, I thought was very romantic. You know, how long it will last, goodness knows. Yeah. Well, they rented the boat. But what were you thinking, Jesse? He seems relieved. also prompts a moment of honesty between Connor and Willa and that there's a question right at the heart of it she was a sex worker when they met and so there's always a question about what the nature of the relationship is and I think it she's as touchingly as honest as she can be and it's not without a certain amount of affection so I guess it's it's as happy an ending as I could imagine for that couple or a midpoint yeah Yeah, no, the dip or the kiss, it was fantastic. And from the distance, as you pulled out from the boat, it was like, I was like, they rented the boat, go for them. Go for them. That's what I kept thinking.

Yeah, I feel the same. Yeah. So this is for each of you. What's the one moment, this is the last question, in the episode as you watch it that hits you the hardest, that pulls at your own heartstrings the most, even though you wrote it and you directed it? Why don't you start, Mark, and then Jesse, you have the last word. In shooting it, it was Sarah getting on the phone to her dad. Up until that point, I'd been emotionally involved, but I hadn't kind of been kicked in the head in the way that I guess I'd anticipated, particularly from reading the words and then Sarah Sarah picks up the phone and then Jessie and I were just in pieces I think as I recall watching that first take

it was just brilliant um and Sarah's just that she has that Meryl Streep thing where you call cut and she goes how is that you want another one and she's immediately out of it again and then and it feels almost like an insult because she's just ripped your heart out and then she's completely back to being Sarah. I need a sandwich. Sandwich. Sandwich boy. Get over here.

What about you, Jesse? I'm afraid the same one. I've been watching it. We've been doing the music in the last few days. So I've had to watch it a lot. And I find it, well, I find it quite cathartic, actually. I don't not want to see it, but every single time it's emotionally, her voice cracks and she realizes and she has the most rapid transition from this very public.

It's got the quality of a nightmare. And, you know, for people who've had bad news, that thing, the sudden tip of the world, it happens almost more quickly for her than anyone else. And the ways that she reacts with this, just wanting to deny it and then sort of cheerful and then angry, it's, I find it very affecting. It is. Absolutely. It is, absolutely. It is quite an episode. I don't think it's a happy episode.

They're out on the sea without the captain. It's a very scary thing for a lot of people, speaking of boats. Anyway, thank you so much. A wonderful episode, it really is. And I think you did it exactly right, both of you. Thank you so much for joining us, Jesse and Mark. Thanks, Karin.

Thank you very much. That's very generous of you. Yeah, thank you so much. We'll be back in a minute. Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere and you're making content that no one sees and it takes forever to build a campaign? Well, that's why we built HubSpot. It's an AI-powered customer platform that builds campaigns for you, tells you which leads are worth knowing, and makes writing blogs, creating videos, and posting on social a breeze.

So now it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. So now's the time we would normally talk about the real world of Succession, but today we have a very special guest with us from the world of the show. Joining me now is the man at the center of the Succession universe, the son that we all merely orbit around, Brian Cox, who plays Logan Roy. Since I cannot find a dead billionaire to interview, they never die, they just remarry, we have Brian. Brian, it's an honor to have you on the podcast. Thank you. Nice to be here. So everyone has seen episode three, Logan is Dead. It's the moment the entire series has been building up to. The show is, after all, called Succession. How did you look at this

happening? Did you expect it? And talk to me a little bit about his fate. I mean, I knew that something would have to be done, you know, in order to complete the show. And I knew that he would probably have to die. Jesse called me in. He said, I'm afraid I'm going to have to tell you that Logan is going to die. And I went, okay, he's going to die. I didn't quite expect it to happen as early as it did. But then we were locked into the fact that each episode is one day, which we haven't done in the series before. So he dies on day three. I was fine about it. As long as I was getting paid. You kill me off in episode three, does that mean you stop paying me?

No. Well, I'm a natural born Scot, so we think about things like that. And it's interesting how they did the death. And I have a secret sort of fantasy that actually we don't actually see Logan die. We know about it. We hear about it. We don't actually see it. We don't even know of that body at the end of that episode. It is Logan's body.

So there's a sort of mystery that is Logan dead? Or has he just gone into somewhere else? You know, or is he testing his family to see how they're going to react when he's dead? You know, that's the other attitude. You see, I'm much more imaginative than people give me credit for, you know, so that's my feeling about it. I can see that. Yeah.

So I just thought, you know, maybe he's not dead. There you go. Okay. Well, I love this conspiracy theory so that there could be a sequel that Logan really is living and creating a new life somewhere else or will reappear. Somewhere in the north of Scotland. Okay. Let's say he actually died.

It is all off screen. Was that the right way to do it? Or should have you had a great, you know, you're a Shakespearean actor, a great death scene. Did you want something like that? Or do you feel this was effective? It's not my responsibility. What the writers decide, the writers decide.

There's an element of the performing monkey in being an actor. You know, you follow your mercenary calling and you draw your wages, you know, and that's fine. And I accept that. And these decisions are made, you know, I would have probably preferred to have died in episode six, you know, maybe rather than episode three. I just felt it was a bit early. But then given the fact that each episode is one day, I understand why that happened. But I didn't mind dying. I don't mind that. We all die, and it's inevitable. And ironically, my elder sister's just passed away. And then last year,

the end of last year, my father-in-law, who's actually my age, passed away. So there's been quite a bit of death around. And then, of course, Logan passing away. And it's inevitable. And it's the one way that you can complete the show by Logan dying. And I think within the rigor of Jesse's work, it's the only answer. It's the way he had to do it. Do you think Logan ever saw this coming or did he was going to live forever? A lot of the people I cover who especially are like Logan do have a way of going through life that they're going to never die. Yeah, I think that's true. But I think given the fact that he was very ill in the first season

and that he knows that there's a weakness there in him, I'm not quite sure if he's died of a stroke or a heart attack. It's still unclear. See, I never watch it. I don't watch the show. Oh the show. People tell me about it. Because my view is it's bad enough doing it without having to fucking watch it. You know what I mean? I mean, I love the doing. I love the doing. It's the doing is the main thing. The watching is a sidebar. And the watching is for the public, not for me. Yeah, like last night, I went and consumed several tequilas while the last episode was being played.

That was the premiere. Yeah. And I was much happier doing that and, you know, watching my acting. I see. Okay. So you were just outside in the bar. I was outside in the bar. Yeah. But that's me. I've never been really interested in watching myself. I've only been interested in doing it, you know, and it's the doing of it that's the most important thing. Well, let's talk about the doing. Logan's final days. Now, even though you didn't watch it, it's quite good. He seems a little out of it, a little adrift, a little lonely. The dinner scene with his bodyguard was poignant and sad in so many ways. Oh, I love that scene. It's one of my favorite scenes in the whole show. Yeah, I agree. I agree. He's getting ready to sell his company to a rich tech kid.

How do you look at where he is right then, especially in that scene with the bodyguard, which to me was just heartbreaking? Well, I think he's an exceedingly lonely man. And I think that kind of wealth, that kind of power makes the individual lonely, sometimes to the point of craziness, nuts. You know, I mean, look at Howard Hughes, how Howard Hughes ended his life, you know, brilliant brain in many ways, but kind of totally dysfunctional. And I don't think Logan is a Howard Hughes. I think he's much more circumspect. And also when Jesse first approached me about the role and I talked to him and Adam McKay, Adam McKay was here in LA and Jesse was in, I think he was in Italy and I was in London. Then it was only going

to be a one season part. And I just thought that this was going to be a great show and I was looking forward, I would happily do it. And there was a possibility that he would only be in one series, that he may not go on to other series. And I was fine with that. You know, I thought, well, that's okay, that'll work. And then I suggested to Jesse that he could be Scots. Now, if you're a Scots person or even we say Scotch, believe it or not, that's the old phrase of the Scotch. It's a different sensibility. It's a different cultural sensibility.

And there is a different relationship to death in that sense. So Jesse said, absolutely not. He has to be American. He's got to be American. And I said, fine, he's American. I'll play it American. Except I think his sense of America's American. I'll play it American. Except I think his sense of America and his geography was a little out because he made him born in Quebec, which is not the United States of America as far as I know, unless they've taken it over. Maybe, and I hadn't noticed. But, you know, so I thought, okay, he's American. Adam McKay, on the other hand, because he is, as we would say, Adam McKay, not Mackay, is of Scottish heritage. So he thought it was a great idea that it would be a Scot. So for nine episodes,

nine episodes of the first season, I played this guy born in Quebec. Finally, we get to East Noir and we're doing the wedding scene, and there's my old friend and lovely actor Peter Friedman, and he sits there and he says, oh, by the way, they've changed your birthplace. And I went, what? What do you mean they've changed my birthplace? He said, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, they've changed it. And I went, oh, really?

So where am I born? He said, I have no idea. I can't remember. He said, oh, hang on. I'll look it up. And he went to his device, and he said, oh, really? So where am I born? He said, I have no idea. I can't remember. He said, oh, hang on. I'll look it up. And he went to his device and he said, oh, yeah, here. It's here. He said, you were born in somewhere called Dundee, Scotland.

And I went, but that's where I was born. And he said, well, that's a coincidence. I said, yeah, it's a hell of a fucking coincidence to be told in the ninth fucking episode that there you are, your birthplace. You weren't born in Quebec. You were born in Scotland. So it puts a whole different, and Jesse didn't quite realize this,

it puts a whole fucking different spin on the show. He's a Scot. Which means what? He's wandering? Yeah, he's a Scot. He's of no fixed abode. He's been moved around throughout his life. He's this kid who came across, we decided he came across with a form of kinder transport that happened just before the war, where a whole bunch of kids did go to Canada and were taken to Canada. And we reckon that's what he was, and that he came back to Scotland and probably worked at one of the, one of the Dundee, because Dundee is a big newspaper town,

that's the three J's, juke, jam, and journalism. So that would be it. So I thought, well, you know, it's all up for grabs. You know, there's no definite answer to anything. And that really made me think. So I went to Jesse and I said, Jesse, why have you changed my birthplace? He didn't even tell me why. He just said, oh, we thought it'd be a little surprise. And I said, it's a hell of a fucking surprise. You have an actor, you have him for nine episodes, and you're so firm that he's American. And then finally, oh, we sat around the writer's room and we decided to change your birthplace.

Then I go, it's all a fucking bollocks anyway. Let's just get on with it and do the job. Is that clear? Is that clear? Yes, it is. You stopped being Canadian, which is perfect. Yeah, I stopped being Canadian. I mean, I was doing a very bad Canadian accent, as it turned out.

You were doing a bad Canadian in general. But he had to do that speech at ATM, which was also a great moment, where he calls them all pirates. That's right. What is he trying to do there, from your perspective? He's trying to rally the troops. It's General Patton rallying the troops, you know. It's Eisenhower. I mean, that's what he's doing. He's rallying the troops, and he's ready for the onslaught. He's ready to make ATM the new Fox program. You know, he's going to take over.

He's going to be more right wing, more extreme, you know. I mean, this is the interesting thing about the show, of course. And that's where Jesse's a genius because of the political context of the show. He is a political writer. You know, he may pretend that he isn't, but he is. And it's a great, great premise. But he's not a pirate. But do you think he's capable of it? He's a pirate. Of course he's a great, great premise. But he's not a pirate. But do you think he's capable of it?

He's a pirate. Of course he's a pirate. He's been a pirate all his life. Did you know that Captain Kidd was born in Dundee, the famous pirate? No, I didn't. Well, there you go. You should fucking learn things, you know,

and I'll tell you. I should learn things. He was born in Dundee and Jesse doesn't even know that. I know that, but he doesn't. Captain Kidd is a pirate. Got it. So one of the things that a lot of people I cover in tech and in media, they call themselves pirates. And, of course, Apple had the famous pirate symbol above their headquarters.

But they're very rich, and they're very powerful. And they're really not pirates in the strict sense of, say, Captain Kidd. No. And I think that's a very good point, actually. And I think that's Logan's curse. He'd love to be a pirate. He feels he's a pirate.

But circumstance makes him definitely not a pirate. But he's got a pirate spirit. He feels... a pirate, but he's got a pirate spirit. He feels, and that's why probably his life has come to an end because he hasn't done what he should have done, which was to be a real pirate in the tradition of Captain Kidd. Instead, he sort of, he gets more and more suffocated by this wealth and power. It seems that's what's happening. Yeah, that's right. It doesn't suit him. It doesn't hang on him. He's a tragic character. He's a great, it's a great tragic role. It's one of the great roles and you can't get around it. And that's why everybody, you know, lock on to Logan and the way they do. I mean, Jesse has created one of the great roles in television. You know, it's there

with Sopranos. So have you. Well, yeah. Yeah, I suppose. Right. The whole show is about his kids, obviously. But I contrasted the scene when he was trying to apologize to them, to the Italian scene with Kendall, where he's just terrible. What a terrible. Yeah, but you've got it wrong. You've got it complete. Everybody gets that scene totally wrong. Okay. Tell me. Well, let me tell you about that scene. Okay. So he comes along to a dinner to talk to his son. Right. And his son does this gesture with, oh, that's not for him. That's for you. As if to say, oh, I'm going to make him think that I'm poisoning him. Yeah. And he goes, oh, for fuck's sake, don't give me that. You wanted me to think that you're poisoning me. Okay, I'll take it one step further.

Where's my grandson? He's got no intention of poisoning his grandson because he knows it's a fantasy. So his grandson comes on and says, will you taste the food for me? And he does. And it blows the balloon out. But the gesture, if you watch the scene, comes from Jeremy, comes from Kendall. He makes that gesture. And naturally, Logan responds rightly.

And he says, this is a bollocks. This is a nonsense what you're doing. You know, be straight with me. Don't give me a fake plate of food and then take it away. Say, oh, that's not for him. This is for him. And you go, oh, I know what you're doing. You're trying to make me think that I'm being poisoned. Okay. I'll go along with that improv that you're having. That's the point. Wow. Now, do you understand?

Yes, I do. I do. What is the scene? He took it to a large level though, in that case. Well, he always does. You have to take it to a large level because that's the only way you prove your point. Especially when you've got dumb ass children like he's got. You call them losers. They're losers. They are losers. There you go. But you also say you love them. What does that mean in that scene, in that karaoke, which is a perfect place for you to deliver that message? Yeah, because he does love them. That's his Achilles heel. He'd be a lot better off if he didn't love his children. He'd be a happier man.

But he loves his children, and it's a conflict. He can't deal with it. He can't deal with the pain of it, the fact that he loves his children, and they don't honor him. All they want is entitlement, avarice. That's all they represent. And he's just a guy, crude, rough, sadly, you know, destroyed romantic, cynic, who's become more and more right wing.

He didn't start off like that. He started off probably in a different way. And he's become like that because of circumstance. And he's trying to get his children to take on the responsibility and own it. But they don't see it. They only see it in terms of their own avarice. And he can't do anything about that because he loves his children. Does his brutality lend itself to that, create those children in that way? Yeah. Well, he is brutal. That's his method. He's tough. He's tough. He's not sentimental.

And that's a very Scottish thing too. That's, in a way, when I first suggested he should be Scots, and we could have wasted all that fucking time for nine episodes, he was in Canada. You know, Jesus Christ. It came through. The Scot was there. It was a silent Scot. I don't know what a Canadian Logan would be.

Oh, no, a Canadian Logan would be, hey, hey, all right, hey? What are you doing, hey? Ah, great, hey? logo, we would see, hey, hey, all right, hey, what are you doing, hey? Ah, great, hey? Yeah, bollocks. Scottish people are also funny, in my experience. Oh, yeah, naturally, I think of myself as a comedian. You know, I've become this great tragedian, but I actually, as I get older, I just want to laugh more because life is ludicrous. Yeah, in a lot of ways, Succession is a comedy.

Yes, it is. It is. Do you have a favorite Logan Roy moment or scene from all the four seasons? Yeah, I think my favorite scene is definitely the scene with Colin. You're a good guy. Thank you, sir. You're my pal. Thank you, sir. You're my pal. Thank you. You're my best pal.

Thank you. I mean, what are people? Right? What are people? Like? They're economic units. He's trying to understand something very profound. And it's a sad scene because he's got no friends.

He's friendless, you know, and he thinks that this guy's his best pal. And, of course, in many ways he's great because he's just there. He's constant. What Logan wants more than anything else is constancy, some kind of constancy, some kind of thing that says, this is what it is. He's not found it with any of his partners. He has it with Kerry, the wonderful Zoe Winters. There's a certain constancy there, the way she came from outfield. And she's, I think she's fantastic in the show. Yeah, she is. Do you have a least favorite scene? I'm just curious if there's something you're like,

oh, that. No, no. The writing's too good. You know, there's never been a least favorite scene. The writing is brilliant. It really is. You know, it's a brilliantly written show. And Jesse is a, he's a bit of a genius. He really is. He's an extraordinary man. I have such, I mean, joking aside, I have such, such respect for Jesse. And I've even more respect for him because he decided to end the show. And I think that's a great thing. Too many of these shows go well beyond the sell by date. It's finite as opposed to infinite. And his integrity is second to none. What will the Roy family be like without Logan and beyond, from your perspective, since they are losers, since they are full of avarice and greed and incompetence? Does any of them rise to the occasion, or is it just, it is what it is, with the great man gone in the middle?

It is what it is. And I don't think you can speculate. And I don't think that Logan would ever speculate. You know, he didn't, he dies. Life is taken away from him before anything is achieved. He doesn't achieve what he wanted to achieve. And he doesn't know where it's going to go to after he's, because he's gone. He's not here anymore. And that's life. That's the way it is. You know, we try to be in control and we're not in control. Nobody's in control. We're all subject to the whole business of being alive, which is contradictory. And we sort of, and this is what really gets me, is that we fill ourselves with spurious belief systems in order to legitimize what our lives are. And I think that's a load of bollocks for a start. Just examine our humanity. Look at who we are as human beings. And that's brilliantly what Jesse does. He really looks at who people are. And even though he's quite a political writer, he does see it in terms of its context. And that's his gift. That's his great gift. So in that regard, do you think Logan's a sympathetic character when you think of the end? I think he's misunderstood. I wouldn't say

he's sympathetic. It's understandable that people dislike him and are frightened of him and all that. But he is misunderstood. Nobody understands where he's coming from. And there have been brilliant hints throughout the season, the scars on the back, things which are, and that's what Jesse does brilliantly. He never discusses. He allows things to be, and that's up for the audience to make what they want to make of it.

It's been the best time for me working with Jesse and Mark Mylord. The director. Yeah, he's fantastic. So when you think about what would be next for Logan, if he lived, say he came back, would he become a pirate finally? Would he escape what he's wrought? I think he would probably go the way of Andrew Carnegie. He'd find a little place in the north of Scotland.

He would be with Kerry. He would be with people who love him, who genuinely he'd have Colin there working on the estate. And he would cut back and wait, wait for the inevitable. And not the inevitable in terms of death, but the inevitable in terms of where the empire is going and what's going to happen. And if it's going to be good or it's going to be bad.

And then suddenly somebody would ring him up one day and say, hey, boss, it's a shithole. Can you come back? And he goes, fuck off. I think we should end on that. I have to say, Brian, for gifting us four amazing seasons of Logan Roy, you have, it's legendary. It really is.

Thank you. I'm not going to tell you to fuck off because you don't deserve that. But fuck off. Fuck off. Okay. I'll fuck off then. Excuse my language. Hey, I don't fucking care.

But blame Logan Roy. Don't blame me. Thank you. Bye. Take care. All the best. Bye-bye. You should fucking learn about Captain Kidd.

I do think Brian Cox was dad-splaining some things. Were you intimidated by him in that conversation? No. I felt bad. I felt bad. You said you thought maybe they'd kill him in that conversation? No. I felt bad. I felt bad. You said you thought maybe they'd kill him in the finale. And it seemed like maybe Brian thought that could happen too. I feel like that would have been a huge cheat.

Like you had to kill him and wrap it up. Yeah, probably. Were you surprised though when you saw it? I was. I have to say. I had been told of it before I saw the episode. How they did it I thought was really clever, how they did it and how they didn't show him dying. Although Brian wanted to do the death scene, of course, because he's a Scottish guy.

I can imagine him, like, staggering on the stage, falling. Yeah. You know, like Macbeth. Yeah, he talks about this idea that dying is really—of course, he's an actor. He loves to do the most dramatic things. And so I think that was interesting. And I think focusing in on the kids and their reaction was great. And I just think they did it really well.

And everybody not quite knowing what to do, but instantly moving into position to take over. Like, literally, he's not even cold, and they're already plodding away. And, you know, as you said, the show was called Succession. So this is what had to happen. Yeah. I remember when you and I were sitting in Austin kind of before the show had even premiered and you said, oh, this season's going to be big. You'll never believe what's going to happen. You weren't going to spoil it for me. And I'm like, well, obviously he's going to die. He'll die in the first half of the season. He can't die in the first two episodes. You didn't know it was going to be three. You didn't think that.

I thought it would be three, four or five. Like, I think it had to be in the first half because even in docs, it's like you have to have enough time to wrap the show up. The rising tension, the crisis. Killing Room, the finale would be like, I used to watch the soap opera, Sunset Beach, and at the end, I think it was all a dream. Sorry to spoil that for anyone who didn't watch the soap opera, but it was like a cheat. I thought it was a very effective episode. Now it leaves a way for lots thought it was a very effective episode. Now it leaves a way for lots of things to happen with these kids and focus on the kids and focus on their relationship and what's going to happen here.

And so, you know, and they, of course, have a big internet plot line around Gojo and Matson. And so it's just, it's very current. And also it's just very juicy. By the way, who do you think Mattson's based on? Oh, Elon Musk. A little bit on Daniel Ek. They sometimes mentioned you, but of Spotify, but Daniel's not.

Because he's not in the States. Because he's not in the States. I guess Daniel Ek, a combination of Daniel Ek and Elon Musk. But also the company is more like Facebook, is more like Mark Zuckerberg's. It's a mix of companies, but yeah, it's more of a Mark Zuckerberg-like company. Lots of inspiration. I love that the showrunners are scared of Logan Roy, too. Jesse's afraid to be the one to tell him that he's going to die.

I think he was pissed. Initially, I'm sure he was pissed. Yeah, well. He's out of piss. He's in denial about the fact that he's dead. I know. Is he dead? Logan Roy doesn't come from nowhere, let's just say.

He comes from the head of Brian Cox. What a really funny, and I spent some time with him in person, and he's so funny. And he plays it up, and he loves the attention, and he loves saying fuck off to people. And he could give a fuck. That is what he's like as a person. And Logan Roy is sort of like that.

And I think in playing Logan Roy, he's become more like that. And Logan Roy has become more like him. He's very funny. He's very funny. He is so talented. So talented. And so is Jesse Armstrong and Marcus too, but certainly Jesse is so thoughtful. There's a ton of great shows now. I think they have sort of replaced movies as the real center of beautiful writing. I love these high-quality, beautifully written things that are also entertaining. And the direction is beautiful as well. I remember one episode where Roman looks very small next to Carrie, but then very large next to, I think, Shiv, who he's going to eclipse. It's beautifully done.

It's a really good show. Yeah. We have to move on to the next show. I think Shiv, who he's going to eclipse. It's beautifully done. It's a really good show. Yeah. We have to move on to the next show. I just started watching another show. I'm like, dad. You're so, your body's not even cold. No, he's not even cold. But you feel his grip. You feel Logan Roy's grip on the show kind of released in this episode, even if his grip on the family hasn't, which is shocking because the whole action of succession

is like kicked in when he has a near stroke in season one, right? That's right. In the very beginning, he had one. He was sick. That's what drove the entire action and engine of this story. And I think you're right. That was so smart to focus on the aftermath of his death and not the actual dying, but everyone's reaction to it. And the family is so, when my father died, I had the opposite experience. I was literally like, we had lots of notice. I was holding his hand when he went and it was still utterly shocking to me. And I think the kids play the shock part really well. I thought Sarah Snook really landed it in terms of talking. That phone call was really, I think they're right. That was quite a scene how she did that. And it's so painful to watch because they do not know how to touch each

other. They do not know how to love each other. They do not know how to speak to each other. I mean, I've never, as someone dies and people are shaking hands, you know, that's such an awkward, grieving reality. And I have to say kudos to Connor. grieving. Yeah. And I have to say kudos to Connor. Connor and Willa. Love them. They're sweet. They're sweet. They've turned into a really interesting pair. So yeah, so honest with each other, which is actually so beautiful. Brian Cox said that Logan's Achilles heel is loving his kids and he'd be a lot better off if he didn't love them and they're loser avarice. Did you buy that? Because the follow-up question you asked him, you asked him in a very polite way, doesn't Logan's brutality lend itself to that or create these kids that you're kind of trying to push back on him and say, didn't he make these monsters? He made the monsters. It's love of a

different kind. It's not real parental love. He's unable to love. And he was noting there's all kinds of things in his history that you don't have to say. Like you see his back and he's got marks on it. And so he had a tough upbringing and he decided to bring it into the future with his own children. Yeah. His defense was that the brutality is Scottish. That's the Scottish love. Okay.

I had no idea he was originally Canadian. Yeah, well. It's like a nothing burger. I don't know what he was talking about there, I'll be honest with you. Anyway, I love him. He's great. He's really great. Brian Cox, both of them.

They're very different people. But really, it's a great team of people brought together for a show that has worked really well. And I'm kind of glad they're wrapping it up. They've said enough. So that's a great thing. It takes a big showrunner to be able to say, you know what, we're done. We're done. That's it. All right. Speaking of great teams, do you want to read out the names of the great team from the Succession podcast and our podcast? Absolutely. Absolutely.

The official HBO Succession podcast is a production of HBO and Pineapple Street Studios. The executive producers of Pineapple are Barry Finkel and Gabrielle Lewis. The producers are Elliot Adler, Ben Goldberg, and Noah Camuso. The editor is Darby Maloney. Engineering and mixing by Hannes Brown. Production music is courtesy of HBO. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Kenya Reyes, and Savon Slater at HBO Podcasts. And a very special thank you to the on team. We're not dead yet.

Naeem Araza, Blake Neshek, Christian Castro-Rossell, Raffaella Seward, Fernando Arruda, Rick Kwan, and Trackademics. If you're already following our show, you get your very own media empire. If not, sorry, you're going to have to give it to one of your loser children. But go wherever you listen to podcasts to get smarter. Search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday for more. Fuck off. Support for this show is brought to you by Nissan Kicks. It's never too late to try new things,

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