On with Kara Swisher - Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel: Friendship — My Reliable Gift

Episode Date: August 14, 2023

Today, we’re sharing an episode of Where Should We Begin?, a Vox Media podcast hosted by the iconic psychotherapist Esther Perel. Listen in as real people in search of insight bare the raw, intimate..., and profound details of their stories.  In this episode, a Where Should We Begin first, Esther sits down with two friends. They’ve been close for so long they feel like brothers, with all of the baggage that comes with family but none of the certainty. There are things that go unspoken between them, issues they have skimmed over in their two decades of friendship. Esther creates the space for the conversation they didn't know quite where to begin. This session was recorded in collaboration with NPR's Invisibilia and a sibling episode with Esther can be heard on their podcast.  Kara & Nayeema will be back Thursday with a fresh episode of ON.  You can find Esther Perel on Instagram @estherperelofficial Listen and follow Were Should We Begin? with Ester Perel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 Support for this show is brought to you by Nissan Kicks. It's never too late to try new things, and it's never too late to reinvent yourself. The all-new reimagined Nissan Kicks is the city-sized crossover vehicle that's been completely revamped for urban adventure. From the design and styling to the performance, all the way to features like the Bose Personal Plus sound system,
Starting point is 00:00:23 you can get closer to everything you love about city life in the all-new, reimagined Nissan Kicks. Learn more at www.nissanusa.com slash 2025 dash kicks. Available feature, Bose is a registered trademark of the Bose Corporation. Support for this show comes from Constant Contact. If you struggle just to get your customers to notice you, Constant Contact has what you need to grab their attention. Constant Contact's award-winning marketing platform offers all the automation, integration, and reporting tools that get your marketing running seamlessly,
Starting point is 00:01:02 all backed by their expert live customer support. It's time to get going and growing with Constant Contact today. Ready, set, grow. Go to ConstantContact.ca and start your free trial today. Go to ConstantContact.ca for your free trial. ConstantContact.ca. Hi, guys. Today, we have an episode of Where Should We Begin from the Vox Media Podcast Network. Take a listen each Monday as iconic psychotherapist Esther Perel talks to real people and helps them find insights in the raw, intimate details of their lives.
Starting point is 00:01:41 In this episode, Esther talks to two best friends who feel like brothers but have drifted apart and gives them the space and guidance to voice the unspoken issues they've accumulated over two decades of friendship. In the meantime, if you haven't gotten a chance to hear our episode from Monday, August 7th on grief in the workplace, we did it with Esther. Please go back and take a listen. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.
Starting point is 00:02:26 It's one of those things where it's like, ah, yeah, you know, we both say we're best friends, but like, are we? Do you have a best friend? And what does best friend mean to you? And is your best friend your oldest friend, or is your best friend the one with whom you share the most today? Who hasn't had to ask themselves, if someone is my friend, what does that friendship mean? Has that friendship outlived itself? Neither of us had really been prioritizing
Starting point is 00:03:03 the friendship anymore, I think in the same way that maybe we had when we were younger. So we met in preschool. I think a lot of personalities, a lot of our experiences, a lot of who we are is very intertwined at a pretty subconscious level. So much of our identities and our ego is actually weirdly intertwined and wrapped up with seeing the other, appraising the other in some way. Friendship is the most free choice relationship. It's a relationship that is mutual, reciprocal, and it's very difficult to be the friend of someone for whom we are not the friend. So it has something that demands equity. There's just tensions that exist between us two, and we're both kind of strong personalities.
Starting point is 00:03:57 And there's a little bit of competitive spirit that comes from that. I mean, it really is like a brotherly relationship in that way. There's just been kind of drifting apart. For so long, I've always thought of him as my best friend. I think only maybe in the past year or two, I've really started to question that. Everybody has questioned their friendships at some point in their lives. And I wanted to explore that unique relationship called my best friend. I think that one of the essential questions I understood that you have between both of you is, do we share a passion or how has this passion now become more of a competition? What is that friction that we both experienced?
Starting point is 00:04:53 So there is no major divergent narrative here. It's not like you think our story is one thing and you think that the story is something else. Yeah. So part of us being here is the conversations you haven't had. Right. The conversations you have in your head and the ones that may emerge that you have no idea about. Yeah. Yeah, wow.
Starting point is 00:05:14 And we have time. Yeah, yeah, wow. Yeah, I think there's a lot of stuff we've sort of scratched the surface a little bit to go deeper, but we haven't really gone deep enough. We haven't really spent time in the deep end. And a part of it is because we're now in different cities, I think. And we used to spend so much time together where it was easy to really understand and intuitively know where the other person was at. And we were going through life together. Can you share a little bit about the history? Yeah, definitely. So we went to preschool
Starting point is 00:05:46 together, which is where we met and our families met. And from what they say and from our memories back then, we were best friends in preschool. And then we actually didn't see each other for about a decade. Fate sort of brought us back together. We were working in the same place. I recognized his face. I remember being like, oh, that guy looks familiar. Your families knew each other too? Yeah, it was kind of crazy. So his dad ran a restaurant in the community. It was like the only Indian restaurant and my parents made the website for it. And so we would go to the
Starting point is 00:06:18 restaurant all the time. It was my favorite restaurant growing up. And, you know, our parents would just sort of like chat about each other, just checking in, you know, how's he doing? How am I doing? I actually think in this style of South Asian parenting and talking about kids is like a pretty competitive style of communication. For sure. Oh, he's been doing this. What are you doing in sports? What are you doing in academics? There was like, they don't just tell stories, they brag. There's always a little bit of bragging involved. Yeah, for sure.
Starting point is 00:06:47 Their parents would compare notes and tell each other what each child is doing, and they would report that to their kids so that when 10 years later they met again, they kind of were updated. Then they met for a few years. They were in different schools, but very tight. And then they parted again during college years.
Starting point is 00:07:07 And they have had a kind of an accordion relationship where they go in and out of each other's life physically while always remaining deeply connected emotionally. Yeah, I mean, when we met again, I had never come across anybody in my life until that point that I felt more similar to. We grew up in a pretty small town where most people, it's sort of simple-minded, simple life with goals and what they're trying to do, what gave them joy. How did your parents get there, to that small town? Yeah, I mean, it's not a tiny town, but it's definitely a, you know, smaller neighborhood.
Starting point is 00:07:48 Like when you say we share, do you include backgrounds? Yeah, I think so, for sure. I mean, you know, South Asian immigrant parents. From? My parents are from India. His parents are from Bangladesh. Yep. My parents came to America and, you know,
Starting point is 00:08:04 they were placed in a really rural town in Alabama by a visa sponsorship organization. That's where I was born. So my sister was born. And then when I was about three or four, they moved to Atlanta to work at Home Depot. Yeah. I mean, I think this is one of the differentiators that I always carried as well, is that my family came through a less traditional route. My dad actually came to the States undocumented, to New York actually. And he had a sibling who, you know, legally lived in Atlanta. And so she was like, oh, come here. There's a lot of trees. It's like Bangladesh. And so he came to Atlanta with really just like $500 in his pocket. He just worked
Starting point is 00:08:43 really hard, you know, got married, then decided to open that restaurant. And that's kind of how we began. Your mom is also Bangladesh? Yes. And my mom also no schooling beyond high school level. So my parents are just a bit more like traditional and also didn't come from like an educated path. And so that was, I think, like a differentiator as well. And I felt that also as well growing up. A differentiator between the two of you, you mean?
Starting point is 00:09:10 Yeah, definitely. Because for so long growing up, there was so much like anxiety around their lack of education. And like they've carried that insecurity themselves pretty deeply, but wanted to like level up in terms of socioeconomic class. And so like strivers in that sense. And so I think that even made them actually nervous to ever develop a relationship much deeper with his parents. And I actually remember talking to my parents about that being like, oh, we, you know, we could all hang out. And, you know, I remember
Starting point is 00:09:41 my mom was like, oh, you know, like they don't want to hang out with us. Like we didn't, we don't have any schooling or anything like that. That's crazy to hear. Did you know that? I did not know that. Yeah. But I think the similar thing is we were one of the few South Asian families in our town. So regardless of the different directions that we came, that was the common linkage there for sure. And growing up, there was no other person that I
Starting point is 00:10:06 met who was, you know, loved their traditional heritage as much as also being quite comfortable in like predominantly like white spaces, which is where we grew up. I think one distinction I also always carried is that he's Catholic, was raised Catholic, and went to Catholic school. I'm Muslim. And so I always felt a little bit more of an outsider in that way. I also, oh yeah, big time in that town. I used to, you know, I remember when Osama bin Laden was killed, people were like, oh, yo, sorry to hear about your uncle. Like really intense Islamophobia growing up. And I think that is also something that I envied, you know.
Starting point is 00:10:51 It would just make me wonder. Do you know all that? Yeah, this is all, I mean, yeah, no, not really. I mean, some stuff I was obviously aware of, just knowing that he's Muslim. And my family. It's not that he is. It's what that experience. Yeah, means to
Starting point is 00:11:06 I really wish and then he says he says a little and you know it means a lot I try to downplay but don't
Starting point is 00:11:13 okay or at least not here okay I think it makes me here is okay we will take it as it was not as you've tried
Starting point is 00:11:23 to make it it was shitty it was definitely shitty um and so I think it's easier for me to downplay it so that I can relate on a level to like um you know best friend um and so but you just told your best friend some nuances of your experience. Yeah, I guess I never put those pieces together. Let's hear how. Yeah, I mean, I think there is nothing in your story that I didn't know. Right. But in terms of how that story made you feel different from me
Starting point is 00:12:01 and the amount that it made you feel different from me is, yeah, it makes me sad for a couple of reasons, obviously, because I honestly feel like this would have been really great to have talked about earlier on the difference there, because honestly, I think the gap that you feel for me is not the same gap that I grew up feeling with you. My context is relative to the people around me, much more of a gap than my gap with you to the extent where even knowing all these differences with you, it never felt like there was a difference. Obviously there is, you feel it, that's your experience. But my parents, sure, they definitely, the biggest difference is the education, but they had a really rough time in this country, like really, really rough time. My
Starting point is 00:12:45 dad was here by himself for seven years after getting engaged for a week, you know, and had to like work in a factory for most of that time. And like, even though I went to like a Catholic school, like my parents went in serious debt for that, did not grow up, you know, super well off at all. And like, felt like, you know, I mean, I I mean I I got Islamophobia too yeah even though I'm not I mean just the only person I was in an all-white space in school my entire life which was like a space where I envied you like you got to grow up with diversity yeah um and like I always wished I went to public school um because of that and like did not enjoy going to a school where I didn't have that kind of experience. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:13:32 And or even like enough experience to feel comfortable being around other South Asian people or just not getting to do that. And my parents never were able to deeply connect with people who weren't from the same exact community as them. And all of those were things that I felt like, yes, our experiences are different, but they're both so much more different than everybody else's here that we connect really like deeply because of that. Right. Yeah. So I guess it just makes me sad that you've like gone so much of your life feeling like there was that much of a gap and not sharing that because I would have loved to
Starting point is 00:14:00 like stepped in more there or. Yeah. Yeah. I would say, I mean, I think I carried that gap earlier in our friendship. From the moment they met, they shared a ton together. But here, as they walked in, stuff was pouring out of them, of the ways that they had each observed the other, the other's family,
Starting point is 00:14:25 with things that they had actually never said out loud. And also pieces of their own experience, particularly more painful aspects. And it reminded me, when my childhood friends meet my adult friends, the adult friends always want to know how was she when she was little. And what's so amazing is the way that we take each other in at six, what we perceive, how we understood the family. It's amazing that the little details that we stay with of how we internalize someone when we were young.
Starting point is 00:15:01 Like maybe like when we were living in the same town together, it started to fade more as I think we, like, went to, like, college in different cities. I remember when I actually learned about your family's financial anxieties because I actually, I didn't know. I thought y'all were, like, pretty, like, well off. I didn't actually know that, like, there was all of this underneath because on the surface yeah definitely you see one thing and then that that detail I definitely helped that yeah I mean my family definitely
Starting point is 00:15:30 tried to present like my parents definitely tried to present differently than yeah I was there and like yeah and we didn't we just don't talk about that stuff like I didn't grow up we didn't talk about anything so I didn't know and but it was clear like being my family you know we just didn't talk about money and we didn't do things. We never really did anything extravagantly. My parents would just save up all their money just to go to India every few years. Yeah. I mean, that's the reason I've been doing my own thing, you know.
Starting point is 00:15:55 Like, I didn't want to be a burden financially to my parents. I've been paying for everything in my life since I was, like, 16. Specifically so that I don't have to you know add to that burden specifically so that I can try to help them yeah and like give back for their sacrifice you know which you feel I know you talk about and you you you feel as well yeah absolutely yeah you both help your families yeah like he definitely does more so. Yeah, like regular payments to them. One of the things that I really admire is he, I don't know if this is...
Starting point is 00:16:30 Yeah, you can use it. Okay, cool. Like, you know, launched his own company. And it's something that I really want to do. I don't have a safety net. Like, as soon as I stop making money, that's an income source that's lost to the family. And they can't support me doing
Starting point is 00:16:46 this. And so like, uh, I always really admired and envious too. I think like envious too. Yeah. I mean, I think that's accurate. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to make it seem like we come from the exact same background, right? Like I think there is, there's obviously a difference there. And, um, one that I absolutely recognize. Um, and I think part of the reason I didn't share it all is because I didn't feel like it was my space to share because, you know, that you had more that you were dealing with. So I didn't want to take away from that. That's tough. Some of the things that you don't address, your intention is to protect the other.
Starting point is 00:17:23 I mean, that's where the lack of... Finish the other. I mean, that's where the last sentence. Yeah. I mean, you know, as much as I felt like we were in this together, this is someone I can relate to someone who shares all these things that I feel. Yeah. You've just always been so authentic, so open in ways that I've always been very self-protective. You know, I never talk about anything that's like a point of stress like growing up I didn't and um you were the first person I felt like okay I don't still don't really need to talk about it but I at least feel very comfortable here but I also talks like an open book yeah what's it like for you total just admiration how can someone be like this how can someone go through this world that
Starting point is 00:18:06 I feel like I'm also going through and be so comfortable sharing about themselves? It's been, I think, the part that has been both I want to emulate and that I've been, if we're talking about jealousy, envy, that's something that I absolutely don't feel like I have. And it's, it's part of the reason why you cultivate such deep relationships so quickly. And I just, I just don't let myself really get there. And I don't know if I'm like, you know, capable to do it super well. So, so yeah. And so I felt like we were in this together, but also I did feel like there was more tension in your life, like pulling at you, in your life, like pulling at you, holding you back, guiding the way that you had to make decisions. Whereas I did still
Starting point is 00:18:50 feel like I could sort of choose my own path here. When they talk about being one among a few South Asian families in the South, they emphasize the similarities. But when they start to peel the layers of the differences between them and the nuances of their backgrounds and their respective family cultures, the differences become much more manifest. What they admire, what they envy, what they compete about, what they hate, what they long for. And what they share. C'est moi. Well, I mean, your family was asking of you things directly.
Starting point is 00:19:35 Whereas my parents never talked about things. They were under duress all the time, but they never shared anything. And as a result, they never asked me directly to do anything in a way that his family was always asking him to like help here, do this. What do you think makes for that difference? I do think there's a level of financial security, I'm sure, to some degree, but also culture. In what sense? In our family's culture, there's just not really like an asking for help ever. Asking for help from the children or period, meaning the parents take care of the kids and the kids are meant to be kids versus the parents and the kids are part of one system
Starting point is 00:20:20 and everybody has responsibilities and everybody takes care of everyone yeah i mean i think that's what we're talking about yeah yeah yeah that that's very very heavy as even you were talking about the risks the asks i was just feeling the burdens on my body of just like oh god all of the things yeah that i I'm being asked. Meaning, in a certain kind of a Western sense of the word, you were defined as a child. Yes. And you were defined as a little adult. Yep.
Starting point is 00:20:55 Yeah, I think that's a big deal. Because my parents were always wanting to protect my sister and I from having to deal with this world. That's right. And they would do everything behind closed doors. They would do everything without us knowing, no matter what that took. And you associate that to your parents,
Starting point is 00:21:12 to their particular culture, to their being Catholic Indians, to which part of it or to whatever. I think to our family culture. They're both older siblings. We have huge family. They're both the oldest of like 40 plus first cousins. And in growing up in India.
Starting point is 00:21:31 They were in his role. They were in his role. And they wanted to make sure that their kids that have to be. Didn't have to, exactly. Oh my God, interesting. Yeah. So you, in a way, grew up with the notion that I'm going to be so independent that I don't have to ask them for anything. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:21:47 And you grew up with the notion that I'm going to make it so that I can give them everything they need. That is the dream. Yeah. My heart goes out to both of you. are very, very caring, thoughtful stances of which some of it was articulated early on and some of it you intuitively understood and are now putting words to. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:22:12 Yeah. Yeah. I think we both really related on the care for our families. Yeah. Like deep, deep feeling that there was things that we needed to alleviate. But I think that breakdown
Starting point is 00:22:24 makes it a clearer distinction of like the different ways that we internalize and approached it like I think growing up like your parents found a lot of meaning and joy in seeing you like have fun Whereas my parents wanted me to have happiness and joy, but it was so rooted in like this family web. I will say it hasn't been a light, easy path with my parents at all. Like growing, going through that, I had to, I split from my parents, you know, like I had a ton of, for a full year and a half, like just, just didn't talk to my mom. In order to? In order to start from scratch, do my own thing, carve my own path and not feel, not feel bound to a world that I
Starting point is 00:23:12 didn't choose. So it's a, it's a kind of a tension between my loyalty to my family and my pursuit of my individual achievements and America. Absolutely. It was an east meets west conflict. Yeah. It's very powerful what you're saying, right? You're kind of dividing this a little bit in a dualistic way, right? The interdependence versus the self-reliance. If I wanted to be able to finally pursue, not only did I have to not talk about anything, which was your first degree, but the next degree was I had to cut off for a bit in order to not hear them inside of me,
Starting point is 00:23:56 which of course doesn't really work this way. And so the idea, you know, you pay a price. You pay a price of the disconnect inside. You get to achieve, but you also get to numb yourself and to cut off parts of you. You don't just cut off your parents. And you end up feeling, at some point, I have to accept my rhythm. It won't go in the same speed
Starting point is 00:24:25 because I can never think what do I want separately from how does it affect them. It's a different way of placing the self. And you're 20 what, five, both of you? So it's a, you know, this is also developmental. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
Starting point is 00:24:45 Well, and that was when I was 16. That you didn't speak. You know, looking back, it's the experience that I have the most guilt around, without a doubt, because, I mean, there was a fracture in my relationship with them, and there's been healing.
Starting point is 00:25:02 But I still feel that tension, unless I can do something that is just so much greater than they would have expected me or that I would have been able to. It's to be able to just, you know, pay off all their debts and like, you know, let them travel, let them relax. Because that would justify why you had to do what you had to do. Exactly. But they may be wiser than you on that yeah maybe they actually if you even could explain that to them yeah that in itself yeah I I think I'm just afraid and what would happen I know that that's not part of the friendship yeah but I also think he could be extraordinarily extraordinarily helpful to you on that. Yeah, yeah.
Starting point is 00:25:48 It's like you are the person he looks at when he wants to think about pursuing himself. You look to him when you are looking at how to maintain connection. And these two go hand in hand, actually. They don't exist without each other. Mm-hmm. And these two go hand in hand, actually. They don't exist without each other. I bet that this way that you think of attachment to your parents and the way that it relates to your own self-growth, I'm sure it manifests in our relationship as well as very close friends. Bang.
Starting point is 00:26:20 Yeah. How? I was waiting for that. Yeah, I mean, like, I feel like sometimes in our friendship, and I, like, hear you make the effort sometimes, but I think sometimes I worry that, like, the growth is more important than the, like, relationship. Growth, you mean the achievement?
Starting point is 00:26:40 Yeah. Accomplishments? Yeah. Success. Like, your journey that, journey that you're on. And because I also look up to you and I admire you, I've tried to live that way too. And it's just caused me insane distress.
Starting point is 00:27:00 I've tried to push my family. And it's just so hard. It's really hard for me. And that's why I've had to accept like that it's just not also me. I actually don't really know about this period of a year-long fracture from your mother, but I also cannot even imagine it. Like I cannot, it's beyond conception for me how does that resonate for you the you are more interested in your pursuits and your self-development and your achievements
Starting point is 00:27:38 than in the importance of your relationships which. Yeah. I've heard it from every partner I've ever had as well. So I think it's, there's probably something to it. I've always been someone who's had very specific kind of change in mind that's taken precedence over the people in my life or even my own joy. I don't really do things for joy often. And I've just been very reactive in my relationships in general. We just worked, you know, like we, there's so much overlap. There's so much connection. We have such a similar sense of adventure and curiosity that when we were in the same space,
Starting point is 00:28:24 especially early on when there weren't other people in our lives like that the just there was an explosion um and there was no proactive let's let's do this let's work on this let's build this and now I don't think I've I've like actively prioritized it and um I really do want to be more intentional about it but I haven't been make sure that you get in that you stay in touch he's the one who reaches out I think we both do every once in a while I think it's changed recently I pulled back in the past couple years yeah yeah yeah even though because what finish your talk because I mean I was just like is it really about like our best friendship or like are you trying to meet other, like, I was sometimes feeling like,
Starting point is 00:29:06 was it just, like, the adventures and the, like, growth that you experience in our relationship? Or was it actually, like, you know, us being best friends? Because I felt like there were periods of time where I was, like, if he just meets another person
Starting point is 00:29:20 who will offer him more growth opportunities in terms of self and career, you will be more in tuned and interested in that as opposed to our friendship. Dang. Yeah, I mean, you'll always be my best friend. Yeah. There's never going to be a connection.
Starting point is 00:29:39 But is there truth to this? I mean, I can understand where that's coming from. And I absolutely think my behavior and where my mind was leading me in places that that's super fair and I'm sorry I appreciate the apology but I pulled back intentionally you know there's a relationship is like a like a rubber band you know like there's I didn't want it to get to like a point where it ever snaps it was like I needed to create some of that breathing room for us to like recognize that there was tension
Starting point is 00:30:12 yeah emerging so I always have faith um can I also say I mean you know I can see where you're coming from I also did feel something similar yeah towards you yeah because you're you're a super dynamic person you make friends super easily yeah because you're a super dynamic person. You make friends super easily and you're always doing different things. And when we went off to college, I knew you were making really deep friendships with people. And I wasn't. I mean, I was very much like, I wasn't trying to, but was making a lot of different connections and acquaintances and you know people who I'd know but wasn't making deep friendships and that probably scared me um I mean it did scare me yeah um but I don't think we really spent enough time validating what we meant to each other
Starting point is 00:30:56 and what we wanted to mean to each other at the time yeah I think that was the nature of growing up in Georgia. We were these two male best friends. It was just so homophobic in that area that like even just saying things like talking about how much the relationship meant to one another was just like taboo, you know. Too intimate? Yeah, too intimate. We never, and I think, so what that happened for me going to college was, I was like, yo, like, I mean, I was, I was like, you know, he's probably like, basically, like didn't think I was important as a best friend to you and so I was throwing myself into that because I didn't feel secure enough in our friendship to just trust that like that was always there but I will say that for many years in
Starting point is 00:31:59 college like I avoided calling anyone like like a best friend. Yeah. Because that was, I was always, you know, my best friend is you. Would it have been like a betrayal? Yeah, it would have felt like a betrayal. And then honestly, like I think growing up, it was a lot of me trying to keep the relationship going and the friendship going. But I was like, oh, like, what if I'm stifling your growth? And that made me like insecure. And maybe I was like, I think there was one thing that. Hold on. hold on.
Starting point is 00:32:25 Yeah. Take a breath. Yeah, yeah. A lot coming out. Yeah. Yeah. Just take a moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Starting point is 00:32:38 I remember... Hold on. Oh. Oh. In the course of the session, every time they would start speaking truth, they'd start talking faster and faster and getting more and more revved up.
Starting point is 00:32:54 And the anxiety that accompanied the revelations was such that I had to continuously temper, create rhythm, slow down, breathe, listen, and integrate. And every time they'd start to speed up again, as if they wanted to protect each other so much that they wouldn't say things that would hurt the other or annoy the other, and it just was pouring out. And then again, slow down, breathe, and integrate. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle.
Starting point is 00:33:43 When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore. That's Ian Mitchell, a banker turned fraud fighter. These days, online scams look more like crime syndicates than individual con artists. And they're making bank. Last year, scammers made off with more than $10 billion.
Starting point is 00:34:11 It's mind-blowing to see the kind of infrastructure that's been built to facilitate scamming at scale. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of scam centers all around the world. These are very savvy business people. These are organized criminal rings. And so once we understand the magnitude of this problem, we can protect people better. One challenge that fraud fighters like Ian face is that scam victims sometimes feel too ashamed to discuss what happened to them. But Ian says one of our best defenses is simple. We need to talk to each other. We need to have those awkward conversations around what do you do if you have text messages you don't recognize? What do you do if you start getting asked to send information that's more sensitive? Even my own father fell victim to a, thank goodness, a smaller dollar scam, but he fell victim and we have these conversations all the time. So we are all at
Starting point is 00:35:05 risk and we all need to work together to protect each other. Learn more about how to protect yourself at Vox.com slash Zelle. And when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust. Support for this show is brought to you by Nissan Kicks. It's never too late to try new things. And it's never too late to reinvent yourself. The all-new reimagined Nissan Kicks is the city-sized crossover vehicle that's been completely revamped for urban adventure. From the design and styling to the performance, all the way to features like the Bose Personal Plus sound system, you can get closer to everything you love about city life
Starting point is 00:35:46 in the all-new reimagined Nissan Kicks. Learn more at www.nissanusa.com slash 2025 dash kicks. Available feature. Bose is a registered trademark of the Bose Corporation. Sometimes it's about what needs to be said. And then after that, it's about sitting quietly with what has just been said. inside. Part of what you're saying is we felt very, very close, but we've
Starting point is 00:36:31 never told each other how close we feel. But I knew that I couldn't call somebody else my best friend, because it would be disloyal to you. That's super powerful. Yeah, wow. That wow some real shit yeah sounds like we let a bunch of our own insecurities about our relationship get in the way I remember I mean so many occasions where you would tell me something really important in your life.
Starting point is 00:37:07 And then you would follow it up with talking about how other people that you've shared this with have responded in different ways. And maybe that was you trying to protect yourself. For sure. But to me, that was, oh, he doesn't really need this relationship that much. Like, I feel like it's little things like that. And I was quiet, you know, I wasn't sharing that, obviously. So I tell you about my other friends so that you don't think that I am putting all my weight on you
Starting point is 00:37:42 and that I'm too needy. And then I hear you tell me about the other friends. And so then I think I'm not that important after all. Yeah. And so each of you who are so important to each other, leave these conversations thinking you're not that important after all. How ironic. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:38:03 Yeah, that is true. He just expressed the core of the conflict and I didn't want them to just ride over it. In fact, he applied because he was feeling more and more that he was the best friend of the past, that the pursuit of self-development and growth and achievement and success was such that he was in search of another best friend, the one that would accompany him into the next phase. And since he had chosen relationships over self, he was moving at a different pace. And that would become the fracture in their relationship. And they needed to just sit with that for a moment. This is a dilemma that actually transcends their origins,
Starting point is 00:39:08 their immigrant backgrounds. This is a piece in every friendship where is your individual pursuit more important than our bond? And if I start to feel that our bond is secondary to you, then I'm going to retreat. Do you share your love lives with each other?
Starting point is 00:39:30 Do you talk about that? Yeah. I think so, yeah. That was another area where I think early on was a big difference between us. Because I didn't really have a love life for a while because of a lot of insecurities I had. What stood in the way for you when you say insecurities? Well, so this is one of the factors that led to my breaking point with my parents. When I was in middle school, you know, I was asked out on a date and I really wanted to go
Starting point is 00:40:00 and finally worked up the courage to tell my mom. And she completely shut me down. And it was like a traumatic experience for me at the time, because especially I'd been thinking about this for days and days and days before finally figuring out the words, testing it out, finally sharing it. First time, really, I felt like I was sharing something that was off path from what they wanted of me. And that was a tension I carried with me for so long. And I always wondered, you know, how can I do something that my parents would be so not supportive of? You know, so it took me, it was until I got to college and like that I really was in a serious relationship for the first time. And you were, you dated those girls, them? Yeah, I dated, I dated a
Starting point is 00:40:43 woman in, woman during college. We ended up dating for about a year. And it was actually crazy when we finally started sharing. We were going through a lot of similar things and really crazy similarities in our relationships. We both started dating our first serious partners around the same time, actually. There came a period when we both realized
Starting point is 00:41:06 we wanted to end our romantic partnerships with our partners around the same time as well. And he was like, it's really hard. She's having a hard time, but I know it's not right for me. This is where my growth is headed. I'm going to move in this direction. Whereas when I did it and I saw
Starting point is 00:41:25 just the grief, just like the challenge and also how I felt, I was like whoa, whoa, whoa, I really love you you're a really important person in my life what am I doing here? there was a lot of thinking I was really looking at your example the whole time
Starting point is 00:41:40 why do you put them as opposed to each other? your personal growth and your relationships, don't they go hand in hand? We used to have a lot of conversations about this. Are romantic relationships actually a tether
Starting point is 00:41:59 towards ultimate growth and achievement? And I believe that. That they are? I think at that, I was under a lot of tension. I didn't know, I was like looking up to you and I wanted to be like you. And I knew that like...
Starting point is 00:42:15 But it actually has been a bane for him. Yeah. And the way I ended that relationship was awful. Yeah, yeah. And I wish I didn't do it that way. I've learned a lot since then yeah I didn't really know hold on a sec yes this is New York City yes yeah it's a metaphor for the emergency crisis I was in at the time yeah meaning you know I just didn't know how to communicate
Starting point is 00:42:43 and really have a conversation about it. It was really kind of came out of nowhere. And why did you want to end things? I was feeling... For that same split that he's talking about? I felt like there was more of my energy consistently that was going towards the relationship than I wanted. Do you never think that the relationship can give you energy that you can then use for your career pursuits? That it actually is an emboldening thing rather than a suck?
Starting point is 00:43:17 It's a really good point. I mean, it's something that I need to open myself up more to that idea. There's a part of you that sees relationships, and that's what you describe with your parents, as restrictive. You don't see them as generative. It's like me versus. And the relationship takes from me rather than the relationship offers me, opens me, energizes me. You name it. It's not a jail. offers me, opens me, energizes me, you name it. It's not a jail. Biggest tension I feel with allowing myself to go there is this fear that this person's goals,
Starting point is 00:43:52 this person's energies, this person's desires, and what ours will be together will shift me away from some goals that I have that I care really deeply about. Because I made that split so early, I feel like I can do things on my own, and I just feel like things will deviate me from the path. And I think a lot of my emotional structures are probably deeply rooted with feeling very profound connections with people like you and my sister. But he also ends up feeling like he
Starting point is 00:44:22 becomes a deviation from your path. Yeah. Well, it's weird because the reason I feel like, I think my, I feel comfortable doing things on my own is because I know I have such profound connections with people like him. As long as he makes sure that the connection is preserved. But if he steps back like he did in the last two years, do you notice it? I definitely have, yeah. After how long? No, throughout. I definitely have recognized it.
Starting point is 00:44:51 But I do sense. I think it's more than just an investment that isn't mutual. I think there's actually been some active growing apart. Say more about the growing apart. There's tension. The last couple of years when we've just hung out, it's felt like we're not only sitting with that tension of not talking about it, but we're doing things consistently,
Starting point is 00:45:13 saying little things here and there that add to that tension. Mentioning different things that we're each doing in a way that, like, yeah, I just went on this trip here, and I just met these friends, and here's an experience I just went on that is maybe something we would have done together back in the day and it almost feels like a like a jab like here's something that I am capable of doing this without you like each one jabs the other with statements that say look how great my life is without you something like that yeah but I think
Starting point is 00:45:40 in terms of relationships I still am I see I don, I do see this as like an additive relationship to me. Best friends is not what can you do for me. It's not organized around interest, ROI. It's a different level. And if you start to feel like we're each showing the other, hey, cool without you. And you start to do it as a way also of saying, I don't really miss you.
Starting point is 00:46:21 Go ahead. Yeah. I think that's just spot, like, I was definitely, and I think it's coming back to not knowing where the others stood because you were doing some amazing things over the years. And like I said, I've looked up to you for so long. For a while, I didn't know where I would necessarily, I didn't know, like, yeah, whether whether I needed I had any value in that chain and I and I think there was a period where there was definitely the jabs where it was like oh I actually
Starting point is 00:46:54 don't need you either you know what I'm cool and it was hoping that like me doing that would elicit some sort of reaction of, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, what about us? And I think... Do you travel together? Have you? Have we? I don't think so. Oh, my God. Your mind, maybe?
Starting point is 00:47:15 Yeah, your mind, yeah. I mean, we've, like... Yes, yes. Internal journeys, you've done many. Yeah, we'd never really been so intentional about, like, you know, carving out that time for each other because we had been so accustomed
Starting point is 00:47:27 to being like, oh, our friendship is so strong. We don't need to intentionally maintain it. It's just a natural thing. There's no work or effort
Starting point is 00:47:36 that needs to be put into it. It's really not the case. Not at all. It's crazy because he's just someone who, you're just someone who you're we were talking about this earlier but you're you are really open and sharing with everybody that
Starting point is 00:47:50 it's it's always been hard for me to know yeah like is there anything that's just preserved for me that's where a lot for me is like oh you're gonna be good you're gonna create support systems everywhere you go yeah whereas in my world it wasn't that at all you know I'm internalized more things. So yeah, so it's just, it's just interesting how that kind of adds to this too. Well, you're my favorite person to like take on the world with. I realize and recognize it now, like when I said I want us to be lifelong friends, just like, because I want you to be in my life, like in my life, not like checking in here and there, but like, you know, be best
Starting point is 00:48:25 friends. And I know for myself that I need to stop thinking about the amount of value I need to like provide or create in order to like feel like you can justify this friendship. And I know that that's also a personal journey that you're trying to understand more around. But like that was how I was feeling for some time. I mean, I love you, man. I love you too, man. It's just like I want you to know how much like you really do mean to me too. Because you're not just like my favorite like friend. You're the single like best human being I've ever met.
Starting point is 00:49:01 You really are. I really think you're just you're just like an incredible person so like there's no I don't like the notion of like I've never
Starting point is 00:49:11 thought about this as like a value exchange if anything I've thought about the same exact thing of like as someone who is so like I think of friendship and relationship
Starting point is 00:49:18 being so grounded in sharing and as someone who is so willing to share and comfortable sharing like do I offer anything uniquely here? Can I ask you something?
Starting point is 00:49:27 Yeah. I could ask so many different things. I'm just curious in the moment, what do you think has made it so that you've never said any of these things to each other? Being freaking mad? Yeah, I think I feel the resistance of just like upbringings and just being like. Upbringings or men?
Starting point is 00:49:50 Or men in your upbringing? Men in our specific upbringing. I mean, I don't think that other men necessarily would have an easier time. Yeah. Two straight guys. Yeah. Who can admit to the love that they feel for each other is that what we're talking about yeah probably so what is the taboo when you say we
Starting point is 00:50:12 men cisgendered straight guys i mean we men so what what do we and do what don't we yeah i think we don't necessarily share our feelings about each other openly. I can do what I need to do. You know, I'm powerful. I don't need anybody else. I don't have vulnerabilities. That aspect. This belief in true independence as well.
Starting point is 00:50:42 I don't think we've ever talked about actually like needing one another. Yeah. I mean, I don't think we even mentioned it in this conversation as well either no you were talking about how you were trying to make clear to the other that you don't need them exactly exactly what are the other taboos i mean there is like a there is a power element to it as well i don't want to feel ever like less in power in relation to you, I think, because it would create some sort of like submissive or needy. I think we've used that word a couple of times here.
Starting point is 00:51:14 Every time you talk about not wanting to be needy, you cross your arms. Oh, yeah. I don't, I've never felt I have more power or I'm more powerful or anything like that. I don't want to. I think there's actually, when you say that, I think there's actually a part of me that values achievement and growth and impact more so than the relational component. And I wonder if he's actually right.
Starting point is 00:51:44 This is how you must be in order to achieve. You know, my friend and colleague, Terry Real, he says, under patriarchy, men can either feel powerful or connected. But they can't necessarily
Starting point is 00:52:02 have both at the same time. That is exactly how I feel. And I feel like I'm on the flip side, you know, wanting the exact, it's like yin and yang a little bit. Cultural systems change. You, more than anybody, know this. Yeah. You represent cultures in transition inside of you so can you do it vis-a-vis these norms these supposed contradictions of either or either
Starting point is 00:52:39 powerful or connected yeah and so now it becomes the powerful and the connected. He's the powerful, you're the connected. Right. Which is a wild, yeah. And you grapple with the part of you that wants what you call
Starting point is 00:52:51 achievement, power, but it comes at the price of disconnect, which is what you've emphasized. It's efficient, I've succeeded, I don't need anybody.
Starting point is 00:52:59 Let me give you the list of everything I can do for which I don't need other people, but he then becomes the part of you that is disavowed yeah and part of the distance that I think has been created between the two of you is because each one has become a representation of the part of you that you struggle with yeah yeah 100% yeah um that's very. Do your fathers have best friends?
Starting point is 00:53:26 My father's best friend broke his heart. That is the story. They were business partners. And then my father, who is much more of a... He is a prominent community organizer and has helped hundreds of Bangladeshi migrants come to the States. And basically, they were... My dad tells me this story. He's like, we were best friends in the village growing up from preschool. He married his sister. My father's best friend
Starting point is 00:53:53 married his sister, his favorite sister. And they were in business together. And basically, his friend was more driven and just cut him off in the business. And my father told me then, friends are only this. It's family that's the most important. Your friends are great, but you never know when they might stab you. And I think that's what creates this protective response in me because my father is incredibly protective and carries a lot of sorrow from relationships that he feels like he overinvested in and then people didn't reciprocate in return because he's so community organizing and he feels like he did not achieve his dreams because he spent so much time trying to help and connect with others.
Starting point is 00:54:41 Wow. But of course, I can't not think that the same dance is happening right here, right? How often do you see each other? It's been a long time. Nowadays? Like a couple times a year, maybe. Yeah. So what some people do is to have rituals.
Starting point is 00:54:59 Every two months, we take a weekend of what other kind of things you enjoy doing when you're everything yeah give me a few yeah we could go to some basketball games together
Starting point is 00:55:11 yeah we could go hiking together I'm sure yeah film something together one day would be really cool like trying to like
Starting point is 00:55:18 make a small movie yeah when we're both so why don't you say we have a ritual we meet every eight weeks let's do it man yeah
Starting point is 00:55:27 be down for that you know we spend a weekend together or a long weekend together one time here one time at my place
Starting point is 00:55:33 one time to something else and have it be the ritual you never broke yeah so that even when you have
Starting point is 00:55:42 families one day if you do or partners you just say this and it may not be two months at that time but there is a pillar there's a thing and then one day you'll say for the past 30 years wow every x yeah that thing is an immovable. Yeah. It's an ode to us. Wow. Dang.
Starting point is 00:56:13 I think it would be nice for each of us to make a commitment like that to each other. For sure. Yeah. This doesn't scare me at all. This is exciting. Let's do it. Let's do it. On the meta level, it's exciting that I'm even experiencing something like that. So this is not a long-term commitment.
Starting point is 00:56:24 This is a reliable gift. A reliable gift. A reliable gift. I like that. Friendship, my reliable gift. Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere and you're making content that no one sees and it takes forever to build a campaign? Well, that's why we built HubSpot. It's an AI-powered customer platform that builds campaigns for you, tells you which leads are worth knowing, and makes writing blogs, creating videos, and posting on social a breeze. So now, it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers.
Starting point is 00:57:04 Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere? And you're making content that no one sees. And it takes forever to build a campaign? Well, that's why we built HubSpot. It's an AI-powered customer platform that builds campaigns for you. Tells you which leads are worth knowing. And makes writing blogs, creating videos videos and posting on social a breeze. So now it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers.
Starting point is 00:57:40 Something happened in their friendship that expressed an internal conflict that became a relational conflict. So that each of them became the representation of the part that the other one was struggling with and felt ambivalent about. One struggled with the side of him that wanted to maintain connections at the price of experiencing a compromise of the self. And the other experienced the price of maintaining his pursuits and his focus on his own individual compass at the price of losing his connection to the people that mattered to him. And they were each hurt by that. Am I not important enough for you when you keep climbing
Starting point is 00:58:30 and doing your own individual stuff, said one. And the other, am I not important to you when you have so many other important people in your life? And they were hurt. And they felt neglected by the other and they needed to reconnect and now let's see if they will actually take on some of these rituals Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.
Starting point is 00:59:20 Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Hyweta Gatana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Atten. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.
Starting point is 00:59:59 Support for this show is brought to you by Nissan Kicks. It's never too late to try new things. And it's never too late to reinvent yourself. The all-new Reim by Nissan Kicks. It's never too late to try new things, and it's never too late to reinvent yourself. The all-new reimagined Nissan Kicks is the city-sized crossover vehicle that's been completely revamped for urban adventure. From the design and styling to the performance, all the way to features like the Bose Personal Plus sound system, you can get closer to everything you love about city life in the all-new, reimagined Nissan Kicks. Learn more at www.nissanusa.com slash 2025 dash kicks.
Starting point is 01:00:32 Available feature. Bose is a registered trademark of the Bose Corporation. Support for this podcast comes from Anthropic. It's not always easy to harness the power and potential of AI. For all the talk around its revolutionary potential, a lot of AI systems feel like they're designed for specific tasks performed by a select few. Well, Claude by Anthropic is AI for everyone. The latest model, Claude 3.5 Sonnet, offers groundbreaking intelligence at an everyday price. Claude Sonnet can generate code, help with writing, and reason through hard problems better than any model before. You can discover how Claude can transform your business at anthropic.com slash Claude.

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.