On with Kara Swisher - Wicked’s Cynthia Erivo on Defying Gravity, the Attack on Diversity and (Maybe) Getting an EGOT

Episode Date: February 10, 2025

Is it strange that Wicked, a film about a marginalized person discovering her magic and rising up to fight against government oppression, has been a box office success under Trump 2.0 – or does the movie's message actually meet the moment? Wicked has been nominated for 10 Oscars, including Best Actress in a Leading Role for Cynthia Erivo, who already has Grammy, Emmy and Tony awards under her belt. This week, Kara talks with Erivo about why, as a queer, Black woman, the role of Elphaba was especially meaningful and how she made it her own; what she thinks about the current attack on diversity programs and the LGBTQ+ community; which projects she wants to lend her voice and other talents to going forward; and what becoming the youngest EGOT winner (if she wins the Oscar) would mean to her. Questions? Comments? Email us at [e-mail] or find us on Instagram and TikTok @onwithkaraswisher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

She seems frozen. Me frozen? Yeah, you're frozen. Yeah, that's a different movie. Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is singer, actor, producer, Cynthia Erivo, also known as Elphaba, the star of Wicked, also known as one of the hottest multi-talents in Hollywood right now. I love Wicked. I talk

about it all the time. I saw it when it was first on Broadway. I thought they did a spectacular version on the screen. It's making a ton of money, it's a great business. At the dead-hot center of it is Cynthia Erivo, who is just memorable and spectacular in the role she's playing. Her rise to Wicked fame seems meteoric if you haven't been paying attention. She's been a name in the musical world since her Broadway debut as Sealy in the 2015 revival of The Color Purple,

which I also saw, she blew away the audience. She of course won a Tony for that performance in 2016 and a Grammy and a Daytime Emmy in 2017. So if you're keeping track, she's just an O short of an EGOT. Arivo almost landed that Oscar in 2020 when she got two nominations for playing Harriet Tubman in Harriet, one for best actress and the other for best original song. Arevo co-wrote and performed this film's anthem, Stand Up, and she's got another shot

at best actress and the EGOT for her role as Elphaba in Wicked. Don't tell anybody, but I'm voting for her, not that I can vote. It's an interesting role, of course, in what is obviously a crazy time. It's about someone who's the other, who's left out, who is persecuted, who is subject to misinformation. Does that sound like any country right now in this world? It sounds like the United States of America, and she is in a lot of ways the resistance, the idea that you can be different and still be worthwhile.

It's really kind of interesting that it's making a lot of money and is one of the top grossing films of the year when we're in the midst of what seems like a huge cultural meltdown on those issues. Rivo has been very open about how she sees the role, especially as a queer black woman, a British citizen from Nigerian parents. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I'm just a fan. So is my daughter Clara about art imitating life, imitating art and more.

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Upgrade your playbook and make the switch to NetSuite, the number one cloud ERP. Get the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com slash Vox. netsuite.com slash Vox. It is on. Cynthia, welcome. Thanks for being on On. Thank you for having me, Kara. So let's just start first with Wicked.

There's a lot I want to talk to you about being an artist, singing, Hollywood, et cetera. Though I am a lesbian, I will not be talking about holding your space because I'm not that lesbian. Thank you. If you don't mind. I'm a whole, I'm kind of a gay man. So let's start from there. So let's start with Wicked, though.

I took my daughter, I have four kids. I took my, I only have one daughter, but I took her and loved it by the way. She adores you and Ariana Grande and had a wonderful time and my son, my little son wants to watch it too now. I'm just curious, where was the first time you saw the musical? I think you're in your 20s, is that correct? I was 25 and I saw it in London.

I took myself on a solo date. I knew the music before I knew the show. So after having learned music, after leaving drama school and essentially being able to afford tickets to go and see, I took myself to see Wicked for my birthday. Yeah. And just what did you think at the time? I saw it when it first was on Broadway, actually, when it was first there,

like 25 years ago. I don't know why, but it really moved me. I came away from it. I couldn't stop thinking about it. I think it was first there 25 years ago? I don't know why, but it really moved me. I came away from it. I couldn't stop thinking about it. I think it was particularly that character, Elphaba. I think maybe seeing the songs in situ sort of woke something up in my brain. It was just the first time I'd seen a story about one, two women in a relationship, because that's never a story that one, two women in a relationship,

because that's never a story that you see. And then two, about a person who just doesn't fit, on top of which it was to do with her skin color. So I just was just sort of taken by it, yeah. I interviewed Wicked Director John Chu back in November, and he talked about how much he valued input from both you and Ariana Grande in the choreography for the Oz Dust Ballroom, for example.

Obviously, that dance, he said was all you and how you did it and how you wanted it done. How do you think about the experience of that kind of artistic collaboration, how you choose the things you want to work on? I love it. I think it's kind of important. I think something happens when a director trusts an actor. And that's not to say that everyone, you always have to have your input.

That's not to say that. It's just that when your director trusts that you know when it's necessary, or they trust that what you have to say will enhance something. For some reason, there's an element of freedom within that, because you immediately know that you're trusted, so you can play a little more, you can make mistakes and try again and try things over and over.

And I think because John sort of gave me a little bit of room to play and to influence the way she looked and the way she moved, it meant that I could really own her as the character for myself. So I could speak for her when we were discussing things, or actually I think Elphaba might do this, or she might speak up for herself in this moment, or she might actually be really quiet here. It meant that we had this ongoing growing creative relationship,

not just for the piece as a whole, but for the small tiny minute details that each person might have. Particularly for me, I'm a details girl. I like all of the little... If I can find out why does she have these two rings or can she have an earring or is it necessary for her to have jewelry or can she dress like this in a certain way? Can this be more tailored? Can she wear her hair like this?

And if she wore glasses, they'd be like this. And those little tiny things that make the character three-dimensional, as opposed to a 2D picture that you see. I think those things bring it to life, not just for the people watching, but for me, now this person is real and human, you know? So in that scene, for example, I think you're going for dignity, right? In the face of mockery, presumably.

And how you move the hat and put it on and have fixed it. He was talking about the dance and how you held it in different spots was critically important to that scene because it was painful to watch and yet also dignified and weird. Because when I had gone in to start rehearsing for the dance, there was already a dance that had been choreographed by Christopher Scott and Comfort Fodoku. It was really lovely. It just didn't feel like the language she spoke. So I asked if it was possible for us to sort of go back to the drawing board and begin again and create something that felt more like her. And Christopher and Comfort kindly said yes. So we started figuring

out how she moved and instead of it being sort of a moment for laughter, it wasn't that I wanted to take the laughter out, it's just that I wanted to make sure that there was a reason for her to do this dance. So she took that hat off, what in that dance makes her put it back on? This hat is the source of embarrassment and shame, then why would she put it back on again? If she's standing in the middle of the circle, why does she not just walk out?

Why does she stay to do this dance? And for me, I felt like that dance was a sort of reclamation of the room she was in and to take back the way in which people would scorn her. So if you, you can scorn me, but I know I'm supposed to be here. So I'm going to own this space right here, even though you would have me not be here. Yeah, it was a pivot moment in the movie.

Absolutely, it was a pivot. It's like a moment where she stops trying to appease people and just be harmless herself. I'll be alone and I'll be okay with being alone. And so we figured out how that would work and I felt like this was maybe the beginning of a spell, like maybe the first time she tries to conjure something, which is why if you put power into this hat,

which becomes the emblem of the wicked witch, there's a reason to put it back on. We wash away what that hat was, the embarrassment of it, the way people see her in it, and we make it something that is imbued with power and magic. There's a pride in wearing it. Because until then, one of the obvious themes is an outsider

and being invisible to the mainstream, or mocked if you're noticed, right? One of the things you did was, I know it sounds crazy, I watched it again the other night, but you looked down a lot in the movie with your eyes. But it's not looked down in shame, it's looked down in defiance, which was interesting. Maybe you weren't, maybe that was just me reading into it.

But I want to talk about what was the mood you were going for for this character. I don't think I was trying to hide. I actually think she... It's defense. It's like getting there before everybody else does. There is defiance in it, in that she is not trying to hide herself from anyone.

And it's resistance against what people would have other people believe about you. I don't believe this about myself. If you believe it, that's fine. But I don't believe this. And I think it's so interesting because I do think that there's a slight weariness in Elphaba because it's sort of something that she's known her whole life. It's constant mockery, the constant making fun of her. Yeah, you're waiting for the hit. She's always like waiting for, it's like a quiet anxiety that someone's going to say

something all the time. She tries to get there just before someone does say something, but also I wanted her to have a little joy. I really, I wanted her to have hope because you can't get to the uncomfortability and the heartbreak of the Osdorff scene if there isn't hope beforehand. If she's already in that space, if she's already in the hurt, if she's already given up, then what's the point in her even turning up to the Osdorff ballroom? What's the point in her even putting that hat on and leaving her dorm room to get there?

What's the point in her even staying at Shiz if she truly believes that she can't do the things that she wants to? And so I really wanted to sort of build her up to take the rug out from underneath her almost, you know? Obviously, the wizard and I, you know, that's a sunny, hopeful song. Yeah, and it wants to be filled with like hope and joy and laughter and like cheekiness and funniness and all those things that sort of start to slip away from her. And the moment you think it's not going to happen again after the Osdorff, you get that

back again and then it's ripped out from underneath her again. Like, the capacity for her to believe that anything's possible still exists. And I really wanted that for this character because I knew that the fall is much harder and the fall is a much further fall to have. Which is, of course, flying, actually. John and I talked about the huge undertaking, the scene, Defying Gravity, obviously,

the last and probably most critical scene, although I do think that ballroom scene to me was the most critical scene for me at least. Let's have a listen to what he said about the scene. Defying Gravity was probably the hardest thing I've ever shot in my life because it required all departments to require our our sets when we're building it. We had like three different sections. We had the actual bottom with the staircase spinning up. We

had the top and then we had to have another top for the outside because we needed room for the rigging because she was actually going to be all flown around and singing live. So you can't do this if you don't have Cynthia Revo. So talk a little bit about that scene. I feel like defying gravity literally, even though it has a word in it, is the ultimate defiance. It's the one time that she gets to proclaim that she is done with meeting people's expectations. She's done with listening to what people say

she can and cannot do, and is deciding to take on the hardest thing. But not because of anyone else, but because she sort of realizes that the only one that can do this for her is her. The only one that she's seeking really acceptance from is herself. And I knew how physically tasking it would be. I knew that singing and flying would be difficult, but I just didn't care how hard it was going to be because I really felt like experiencing it all helped me to understand what it actually felt like to fly.

And finding a way to make the sound made me feel really powerful. You have to sort of conjure up that power in other places, as opposed to getting it from your diaphragm, where you have to breathe or getting it from a full lung capacity. You actually have to engage your entire body to make sound. It means that you immediately have to make different choices than if you were just standing on the ground. I wouldn't have changed that for the world.

I knew I was up for the challenge, and that challenge started when we got there because I needed to know what it was to fly in a harness that way, to do those sort of big, vast tricks and stunts, the flying around the perimeter, the loop-de-loop and the backflips, all of those things whilst making sound. And all of that training sort of came beforehand before we could even get to the set. But I just, I was really prepared to do it, to be honest. It works a lot better because your reactions are what, you know, because you're singing it. to the set. But I just, I was really prepared to do it, to be honest. It works a lot better because your reactions are what, you know, because you're singing

it. Yeah, because you could, it's hard to fake that. Wicked fans were super quick to pick up on your note change in the last line of the song, the quote unquote war cry that every Elphaba scene leads kind of makes her own. Talk about how you landed your version that's in the movie. Well, originally I was doing Bible, so I was doing what was written, which is what Idina did. And when we started to record the practice comps, Steven Aramis and Steven Schwartz said, now you do your own. That's great. Thank you for doing the Bible. What's your walker? What does your walker sound like?

I tried a couple and then I just let go and that came out. When it came out, when that sound came out, when those succession of notes came out, it just felt right. It wasn't necessarily a cerebral, thoughtful choice, it just happened. We were rehearsing, we were recording it, and I tried something. The first thing didn't quite feel right, and I tried something else that didn't quite feel right,

and then I landed on this and it felt really right. What was right about it? I don't know, it felt really right. What was right about it? I don't know, it felt really guttural. You know what I mean? It felt connected and it did feel like a walk right for me. And I, and I, and I sort of, it sort of stuck. I don't know, there's a, there's a feeling you get when it's, when it's right.

And that's what I was looking for when it came with that. Yeah. We'll be back in a minute. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out, procrastination, putting it off, kicking the can down the road. In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out. Carpet in the bathroom, like why? In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today.

So you've done this massive tour to promote the movie, often with Ariana Grande, obviously created moment after moment after moment. I'm not going to get into all of them because there's so many. But the numbers, obviously it's paying off because the numbers are huge. This is one of the biggest grossing movies of this year. And now you have the Oscars. Now, the issue is blockbusters almost never win, especially when they're

held by women and women are the main actors. I was thinking Barbie, there's so many, there's so many. How, how are you looking at this? Why go on this? I mean, massive tour. I'm just curious how you think about what you're doing here. I look at it as, the tour I think is just to make sure that people go and see this film.

I think it's an important film to see. I think it's important for everyone to see, not just for women to see. That's the thing that's coming back to me. Men are saying that they've been to see this one, and they are connecting with it on a level. They are. I took my 19-year-old son, he didn't want to go because that's a chick film, he's 19.

He's a frat bro in Michigan. I said, you're going with mama. We'll go to Gladiator together afterwards, which I also liked, but he loved it. He thought it was incredibly powerful. I think that's actually the important thing. I think part of doing this tour is to make sure that everybody understands that it's not just a chick film.

It's not just for little girls. It's not just for kids. That it's actually for everyone. It is something for everyone in it. And that just because there are two women protagonists, that doesn't automatically mean that no men can understand what's going on. We don't say that of films that are mainly male. And most films are mainly male. I mean, we have the Irishman, which was quite frankly all men, but nobody is saying

this is a do film. No, we go and we watch it because it's a good film. We go and we watch good cinema. And I think with big movies, we sort of like, we don't allow them to also be medicine too. It can also feed you things that we need to know about the human condition. And I believe that this is what this film has the power to do. Bring people in, make people believe in magic,

but also make people think about what it is to change your mind, to make a person feel like they don't belong, to ask for forgiveness and to forgive, to know what it feels like to not belong and also to see yourself in that, and then maybe find ways for yourself to accept who you are. So you aren't searching for other people to accept you. There's so much in this film that I think is really important for people to see. I would agree. I mean, my favorite line, you were

talking about Divine Greed a second ago, is no wizard that there is or was is ever going to bring me down, which is one of the great lines. And it feels like it's become my motto for this. I've covered up Elon Musk for 30 years and I know him very well and he's a terrible person. But you know, in this Trump 2.0 world, I always think about someone like an Elon Musk and this song meeting that moment, even if it's 25 years old. Yeah. Talk a little bit about that because you have this film that's against the zeitgeist right now or whatever it happens to be. There's no way we could have imagined that this was what was going to happen. I mean, honestly, it took more than 20 years for it to become what it is for it to get

to the screen. And yet somehow we've managed to land right when we're supposed to land. Perfect timing. And I think that the amount of times they've been told that this is the film that people need right now, because there's so much hopelessness.

People are so afraid, they're really, really scared about what will happen to them and their families and whether or not we're going to go back in time. Now, we do not know for sure, but I think a film like this can help us be hopeful about the fact that we are not helpless and that it takes a little bravery to change things, but things can change.

We are more powerful than we allow ourselves to be even against the worst of it. And I just think that this film is really important for that now. One of the things that I was thinking about giving the time of the release, which is just after the election, do you think the reception to Wicked

would have been different if Kamala Harris had won, at least in this country, as a personification of the opposition in film, were you ever worried that you personally could have come under attack by MAGA, if the election had gone the other way, for example? I don't think I was ever worried about whether I would come under attack,

because I actually think, strange enough, I think, people of all ages, from all walks of life, are watching this movie. I think a person who might be wearing a MAGA cap is still watching it. In fact, I know there are people who are wearing MAGA caps. I have spoken to a person who's wearing a MAGA cap, who definitely watched this movie and loved the movie. What did they say to you?

That they loved it and it was really special. There is humanity in this. That's the thing I think is really important. Films can shift the way people think and feel. And this movie, I think, is able to shift the way people feel and think. And there are people, and anyone who doesn't want to shift or think or feel or change the way they see things, is just simply, I think, afraid of what it looks like on the other side

if they have to look at the mirror and go, oh, maybe I've been wrong. Right, but you don't see it as an opposition movie or a resistance movie or anything like that. I think anything that has women in the lead that is talking about difference, that is talking about people who are on the outside, it will always have an element of resistance in it

because there's some genetic makeup of it. But more than it being resistance, I think it's a movie about humanity, which everyone can afford to see, I think. You know? Yeah, it's a dirty word, diversity, right now, but it's not a dirty word. I wish we could all just get over ourselves.

The word diversity simply means many different things in one place. It should be a norm. We shouldn't be discussing we need diversity because it all should just be as it is. When you walk outside, you see thousands and thousands of different people who aren't the same as you. That is diversity. We're just simply wanting to see what we see in real life on our screens. There should be, and in our workplaces and where we live. Yeah, there should be.

Well, there should be. They're scrubbing it from everything right now, which makes it more powerful. It should stay. Actually, it makes everyone weaker. Doing that makes everyone weaker. weaker. Doing that makes everyone weaker. And I'm sure that the opposite is to be thought of. We think that if we just ask, then it will be no, because you lose out on the thoughts of other people on how to actually cater to an actual mass. You're actually only connecting with a small amount of people, not everybody, which is

a sad loss, I think. But I don't think it all remains the same. The story is about systematic government surveillance, oppression by incompetent leaders, lying, misinformation, marginalized people who have been other, rising up to fight against injustice. It's really kind of interesting. Gregory Maguire wrote it that way. And he wanted that, you know, forefront of it. And I think it's important to keep reminding ourselves that those systems are in place. If we're not mindful of it, we actually end up rewinding. Well, in fact, when I saw it for the first time, I was like, oh, this is about my life.

I'm going to be gay. But I was like, oh, this is about my life. I'm going to be gay. But I was like, oh, I see who wrote this. Like, you know what I mean? And you kind of think. But speaking of that, I want to ask you about something you said in a speech last year when you accepted the Schrader Award in Los Angeles LGBT Center. Let me play a part. I thought this was a wonderful speech you gave. As I stand here in front of you, black, bald-headed, pierced, and queer,

I can say I know a thing or two about being the other. Elphaba's story is the cautionary tale of what it can sometimes mean to have to stand in your individuality, your otherness, even when systems of oppression are set against you. It is the story of how a colorful, powerful, magical woman, despite being disparaged, demonized, and discriminated against, becomes a hero.

Wicked is the reclamation and the reimagining of all the labels that are used against her. It is the proclamation of her right to exist in all of her power. If that sounds familiar to you, colorful, magical people in this room, it should. It was a great speech. You also talked about being inside of a glass box,

which I thought was a really wonderful metaphor. And you said, there you were, vibrant and beautiful and falling in love. And I had my nose pressed up against the glass, looking out at all of you, separate and apart. It took time for me to outgrow my box. But that gift that it gives us space to see ourselves clear enough to know that denying a part of oneself is a disservice to a whole. But now the glass is shattered and there's no box in sight, and I've walked out into

the wide open spaces, into the arms of people, and it feels like home. Talk a little bit about that, the shattering of the box. I think everyone, people have different metaphors for that. Yeah, I had not really talked about my queerness for such a long time, and it was so loud for me, and I was very sure of it, and I didn't have the words and I never spoken about it, and until Edward Enthal, who knew me very well, asked if I-

Just for people who don't know, that's Vogue magazine's editor, Britain. He had asked me, I call him Uncle Edward, he asked me if I wanted to share it, if I wanted to be a part of an edition, a Pride edition. And I said yes, because I felt really safe with him. And it was the first time that I was just like, I think I'm done not being everything that I'm supposed to be.

Because I felt like it was occupying so much space and and it was like loud and I just I wanted to get rid of the noise and claim back the space a bit so I could actually just exist and be a human in the world and create more. I really felt like the more I hid something, the more I suppressed it, the less space I was using to create and be. And I wasn't truly, I felt like I wasn't being honest with myself and with other people about who I was, and I just was over it. I was done. I mean, it is obviously so debilitating. Hiding is always debilitating. And it used to be much worse. It's still debilitating.

And last night I was at an event in San Francisco or two nights ago and a young trans reporter, it was a journalism thing, asked me from the audience, I'm a trans woman, should I talk about it? And I said, you can't hide, it will kill you. It's like a cancer within a person. Yeah. I think that's, it just grows. And I felt myself getting like, almost resentful that other people could just be

and enjoy their lives as queer out people. And I was like, I want that for myself. I want to be able to talk about it when someone brings it up in a room. I want to be able to say, yeah, me too. I want to be able to say, I want to be able to talk about it when someone brings it up in a room. I want to be able to say, yeah, me too. I want to be able to share in those conversations. I wasn't, I couldn't, and I was quiet and I just was over it. Why was that? Why be quiet? What were you frightened of?

I was just afraid that it would make the spaces that I could be a part of smaller. I think I would get my people- There's not many queer people in theater, but go ahead. It's not about TV and screen, and I just was like, I don't know, it's one thing to be a black girl on screen, it's another to be a queer black girl in the mainstream. So I just was like, I don't know if this is going to... like, end this for me, but I know that I can't continue pretending. That just doesn't work. I've been in so many

conversations where people were talking about their lives and, you know, how they loved and I, you know, you're in theater and you're around so many people who are that way. And I was just like, why? I can't pretend anymore. It's just after you hear those conversations over and over and over again, and you're like, it's right on the tip of your tongue. You want to be like, me too. And you don't, I just want to do it anymore. I had just interviewed Laverne Cox,

who said trans people should start to hide again. Laverne was specifically talking about transgender kids. They should go stealth for their safety. She wasn't saying it's a good thing. She's worried about kids today. What advice would you give for young people who are going to be struggling, especially in this political climate?

It is scary in this country at this point. I'm scared. I mean, I've been through the whole thing. I'm, I'm, I can't lie and say that I'm not frightened for, for young children who are discovering who they are and trying to navigate what it is to be queer for themselves and what it is to be trans. And I'm trying to figure out where they sit within the world. And I hope that they seek out adults who understand what it is they might be going through, because less than hiding from the world, there have to be older people, older adults that understand and have the experience that can be soft places to land. I really don't want

people to hide themselves. I don't want people to hide who they are. So I don't think that actually helps. I understand why that is the suggestion and I want kids to be safe. I want young teenagers to be safe. I want people to be safe. But I wonder if there is a middle ground where it is about finding chosen family who will accept you for who you are so that those are safe spaces for you to just be. You do play a lot of rebel characters. You were nominated for an Oscar

for your portrayal of Harriet Tubman. You played Aretha Franklin. Sealy from Color Purple takes a stand. Have you been drawn or feel compelled to be an advocate or activist at all or not? I think maybe subconsciously I'm moving towards it consistently. I think I find that the work allows me to sort of plant my flag in the sand about what I believe and the way I see our place in the world. I think I'm constantly seeking out characters who want something and who stand for more than just nothing, you know? Whether it's Aretha who actually was an activist and I don't know

that many people even know this. Absolutely. Or it's Celie who has to figure out what it means to love and is also a queer character or whether it's Alphabove. I think I seek them out by accident. Those are the desirable characters for me. I draw onto them because they have something to say. And I guess there's something thrilling about using my voice to say what they want to say,

but it's also kind of saying what I want to say too. We'll be back in a minute. Are you crushing your bills? Defeating your monthly payments? Sounds like you're at the top of your financial game. Rise to it with the BMO Eclipse Rise Visa Card. The credit card that rewards your good financial habits. Earn points for paying your credit card bill rewards your good financial habits. Earn points

for paying your credit card bill in full and on time every month. Level up from bill payer to reward slayer. Terms and conditions apply. One of the things you use is your voice for music, because integral to all the roles you've played that people know of right now. In 2019, you got an Oscar nod for the song Stand Up, which you were, I think, a co-writer with in Harriet, which you also performed. The film is not a musical, but the music plays a central role as

a motive communication in that movie for sure. You also co-wrote and performed a song in the indie film Drift which came out 2023. How important is music playing your cure going forward? I mean, I suspect you're someone, unfortunately, that every time you show up, they want you to sing, right? The party, like, please sing, right?

Music is completely, it's like my second language, essentially, so I feel like it all goes hand in hand. I think it's always been a part of how I express and how I tell stories, and I love that that somehow that it's weaved its way into everything that I've done, maybe except for a TV role, Holly Gibney who doesn't like music, strangely enough. But I think that using music to express and tell a story, because I really do believe that music is the bit that comes after,

there's not enough, that the words aren't enough. So to be able to use that for me is great. I feel very privileged and very lucky to be able to access that part of myself because I do think it's a really vulnerable part, which is probably why I'm drawn to it a lot and why I keep trying to, sometimes I actively put it in. There was no real music in Drift. It's something I knew I wanted to write immediately. Yeah. It felt like it was necessary to hear this character's thought process and story in music

because it accesses the most vulnerable parts of people. Can you explain what Drift was, briefly? Drift was a little indie movie that I made. You produced it too. Produced it too. Was acting in it as a character called Jacqueline, who was a refugee from Liberia, but was born to a well-to-do family, political family, who was massacred. And then she escapes to Greece, and you're essentially watching her life as she tries to survive in Greece. It's sort of like a residue on the condition of immigrants and refugees in other countries. What direction are you going in now? Do you see yourself returning to the stage? Broadway, producing, indie film?

You know, when you get to a blockbuster status, you have a lot more choices, presumably, but maybe not. I don't know. Do I have to choose? Can I do what I want? What are you attracted to about that? I mean, I definitely know that I want to go back to stage at some point. I just don't know how or what, because following up Celie and the color purple is really hard. Yeah. I need to find the thing that fills me just as much as that.

When I knew that the color purple was coming, I knew immediately that I wanted to do it. So I want to find the thing that does makes me feel that way again. It might not be exactly the same, but I want to be sure about the thing that I'm going to do. I love the experience of building this big world. So I want to experience more of this size of movie because it's really different to other things. But there are definitely stories that I'm looking at now that are not

as big. They're much quieter, much more intimate things. It's the characters that pull me in, to be honest. It's not necessarily the project. It's always the character. You just, for people who don't know, you've been cast to play in an upcoming film, Children of Blood and Bone, based on a best-selling young adult series. The character is not nice.

It's not nice. No, she's not. She's not nice. But she believes that she's justified in her behavior. But I like the core of where she comes from. Now, you also reportedly have a new album coming out this year. Can you give us a preview of that? The album is sort of like born of a lot of vocal techniques.

I build the pads using my own voice. I don't have an arranger. I don't use arrangements. They sort of come to me as they come to me. So I'll record a vocal line and then record a vocal line over that and record a vocal line over that. As each line is being recorded, the next set of vocal lines will come to me. So I do it in real time. And then I've written on all of these songs. I have

a couple of voices who have come in to work with me on some songs, and sometimes it's just me and my producer, Will Wells. And I'm really excited about it. It's not a musical. It's not in the style of theater, although that doesn't mean that those songs couldn't be in a show. But it's sort of influenced by the type of music that I've listened to over my life,

whether it be R&B or sort of Britpop or pop. I wasn't even necessarily going for the style. I really wanted to concentrate on the way the voice was used within the music. That's what each of those songs has in common that the voice is really frightful with. Right. Then you'll be on the wicked freight train. Very versatile. I have two very quick last questions. One is, I was in Los Angeles because I'm working on

something there and a table full of gay people, lesbian and queer people, and they all wanted to know about your nails. And I said, I'm not asking you about her clothing. That is something you would ask a woman, you know, and not a man. And they said, oh, if it was a man, I would ask about that. Or the way you dress and what you're doing. They were really curious about what you're doing it for, for yourself, for performance. I said for you. That's what I said. I said for me. And I dress badly, so I wouldn't know. But go ahead. I dress for me. I dress for me because clothing for me is like a love language.

And that's everything from my piercings to the nails, to what I put on my body, to my jewelry. Everything I wear by whatever that is, is because it speaks to me and who I am as a person, and the style I want to express. Some people are more sedate with what they were, I'm just not. I've been this way for a really long time, it's just people get to see it a lot more now. And I guess I'm a rebel in that, that I just sort of, I'm not really afraid about whether

people like it or not. Oh, they loved it. They loved it. They just wanted to know why. They all had theories. I mean, I also want people to be encouraged that they can just be themselves. I think sometimes we dress because we want people to say that we look good. We dress because we want to be on the best dress list. I dress because I love it. I dress because I love clothes, and I love dressing up, and I love dressing up and I love jewelry. And I am a geek about how things are made and who makes it. And I'll seek out random boutiquey designers

that nobody else in the world knows. And I'll be in love with the way they make things. And it just is how I am, yeah. It's fantastic. I thought, you know, I wear soft pants myself all the time, soft clothes. You're soft. That's my style, soft pants.

I'm wearing hard pants today for you, but otherwise I wear soft pants. I'm sorry for asking that, but I told them I would. So because- No, thank you for asking. No, but it's a great question because I think sometimes people think I'm doing it for other people. But I'm really not.

Someone told me they thought your nails were a shield. I was like, I don't know. They're just cool. No, I think it's the opposite. This is something I've been doing since I was 16 years old, and then I stopped doing it because I was afraid of what people would say. And then I realized how much fun it is to have them done and how it also gave me three or five hours to sit and do nothing and have someone put their art on my fingers. In fact, the way it brings people in is actually

really interesting. People are not afraid to hold my hand. Like they want to look at my fingers, which means that people have to be in your personal space. So you're pulling them in. Ha ha, they were wrong. Last question, if you won best actress at the Oscars, you'd be the youngest person to get an EGOT. Yeah. What would that mean for you?

I mean, I always try and like play this off like it's like a not a meaningful thing, but it would be really meaningful. It would be very exciting to be that, to be that, to be the honest person that wins an EGOT. And it's also like a sort of big pat on the back from people that I, you know, I look up to the work that I'm doing and hopefully sort of like a big kick up the bum to keep going and doing more. You don't necessarily do this for awards. You don't. You do it because you love the work.

If you just did it for the awards, that would not sustain you. It would run out very quickly. But it is really special for people to think of you in that way. It is really special for those things to come because of this work and it's rare, you rare. It's a nice place to be. Yes, it is. You're in a very nice place, may I just say. I really appreciate you talking to me. I really hope you win. I scream about it all the time. I'm like, yes. I thought the others were fine.

Thank you. Your role, I have to tell you, impacted my daughter in a way that was really meaningful, you know, in terms of the message. She loved it and was thought about it a lot. It made her think, especially your facial expressions. I know that sounds crazy.

You had a lot of facial expressions she caught. She's a very canny child. And she came back from school. She's a public schooler in D.C. And she said, I learned the word diverse today, which I was like, sort of the last time you're going to be able to learn it if the Republicans take over DC schools. And she goes, I go, what does it mean?

I didn't want to define it for her. She goes, but what does that mean? And she said, it means you're different, like Elphaba, that you're just different. We're all different and it's okay. And I was like, thank you. It was so good. It was such a great moment.

Yeah. It was lovely. It was so good. It was such a great moment. Yeah. It was lovely. It was really sweet. Can we get your daughter to teach everybody else, please? You know what? Kids should be able to do it. It's so interesting. I've been really astounded by how beautifully and succinctly children have been able to put the themes that are in this film together. It's actually wonderful to hear it from kids because they just get it. Mm-hmm.

I don't know why that surprises me, but it does because of how clear they are every time. Every time. Yes. Always. They know they should run everything. They should not grow up and they should run everything.

Instead we're being governed by adult children, toddlers, which is an insult to toddlers. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much for this. This is really awesome. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Kateri Yocum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Prua is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Kate Furby, Kate Gallagher and Corinne Ruff. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get a pair of fantastic nails.

If not, you get some soft pants from me. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.