On with Kara Swisher - Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus: Billie Jean King

Episode Date: November 28, 2024

Happy Thanksgiving, On listeners — today, we’re featuring a special episode of Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus, one of our favorite podcasts! On Wiser Than Me, Julia shares funny, heartfel...t conversations with iconic older women who bring the unapologetic wisdom and confidence that only comes with age. On this episode of Wiser Than Me, Julia chats with 80-year-old tennis pro, activist, and LGBTQ+ icon Billie Jean King. Billie Jean delves into the nature of leadership, visualization, and her long journey towards self-acceptance. Inspired by the sports legend, Julia asks Billie Jean for advice about her niece’s college soccer career, as well as revealing the original spark that lit her own love of sports. Additionally, Julia’s mom, Judy, reflects on her generation's acceptance of societal norms and the transformative power of the feminist movement. To hear more of Wiser Than Me, head to: https://lemonada.lnk.to/wiserthanmefd Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Starting point is 00:02:34 Hi, everyone. Happy Thanksgiving. We're busy enjoying the holidays and stuffing our faces with turkey. So today we're bringing you a special conversation from Julia Louis-Dreyfus that I think you'll really enjoy. It's an episode of our hit podcast, Wiser Than Me. I interviewed her back in June and we talked about it at length, so go back and listen to it if you haven't already. Also, she is a badass.
Starting point is 00:02:58 In Wiser Than Me, Julia talks with some of the most incredible older women of our lifetime, the ones that bring humor, honesty, and the kind of wisdom that only comes with age. Women like Jane Fonda, Isabel Allende, Catherine O'Hara, and in this episode, tennis legend and activist Billie Jean King. Billie Jean speaks with Julia about leadership, the power of visualization, and her lifelong quest for self-acceptance.
Starting point is 00:03:20 It's a wonderful conversation. I can't wait for you to hear it. To enjoy more of Julia's inspiring stories, be sure to check out Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcast, if only to spend time with one of the coolest ladies I know. I don't exactly know how I became a sports fan because I was not an athlete when I was young. I was born in New York and early on I learned to ride a tricycle and I was good at that tricycle.
Starting point is 00:03:55 I rode it in the hallway of our building. How much fun is an apartment hallway on a tricycle? It's like, you know, just imagine being on a racetrack up and down and up and down. Although as I say this, I am now remembering The Shining and of course, not so fun in that movie, but in reality is in fact a lot of fun. But I lived in the city and so I never learned to ride a bike until I was like, I don't know, eight? And everybody was riding bikes by then, you know, by eight.
Starting point is 00:04:22 But I kind of missed that window and I was so embarrassed because I had to have training wheels. I was always unsure of myself on a bike and I still am, really. I don't really love riding bikes. They scare me. And bikes were the gateway to sports in elementary school. And so I was just kind of fucked and I just didn't play sports. I went to an all-girls school and the sports that were available to us were field hockey, basketball, tennis, and gymnastics. I did not excel at any of these things. At a girls' school, the sports girls were popular.
Starting point is 00:04:57 And I think that's one of the great things about an all-girls school. Women are the very top of the sports world. You cheer for girls. And all my best friends were athletic. So I wanted in on that. So I tried gymnastics. I even competed in an event. I think this was in fifth or sixth grade or something. It was a big meet. Is that what it would be? A gymnastics meet? I don't know. Anyway, I had to do this routine on the balance beam that I practiced and practiced. So I got up on the beam, big
Starting point is 00:05:27 smile and everything, probably pretending I'm Olga Corbett or whatever, and there was a crowd there. And at that moment, I swear to Lord Jesus, the whole routine went out of my head completely. Just telling you this right now is making my palms sweat. I could remember nothing. So, I just started to make things up. You know, in the movie version of this, I improvised this great routine and, you know, everybody applauds, but in real life, I got the lowest score ever on a beam. It was like less than one out of ten, by the way.
Starting point is 00:06:04 That's my big sports memory. Oh, wait a minute. It was like less than one out of ten by the way. That's my big sports memory. Oh wait a minute here's another one. Okay so we had two gym teachers Mrs. Nevet who everybody loved and Mrs. Moody who was English. This is probably the best moment of my high school sports career. We were in PE and it was tennis day and all of a sudden I hear Mrs. Moody, the English one, she goes, cover your eyes girls, cover your eyes! And a bunch of boys were streaking. Anybody remember streaking? Running around naked? It was the thing back then. It's a federal offense now of course, but
Starting point is 00:06:40 anyway, a bunch of boys were streaking naked across the field by the tennis courts. I don't know who these boys were. This was an all-girls school, so I suppose it was fertile ground for teenage male streakers. So like, anyway, four boys go running by and I did, just as Mrs. Moody instructed. I covered my eyes. But I remember I was laughing so hard that, you know, I mean, it's not a great come from behind victory. It's not a championship game. This is the kind of sports memory that I have. And the funny thing is that I consider myself athletic now.
Starting point is 00:07:13 I mean, sports and exercise are a huge part of my life and our family life is totally sporty. My kids are great athletes. My husband is a sports nut. He's always riding a bike or a surfboard or kite foiling or snowboarding or something. And I work out literally every day and I love it. And growing up, my dad used to bet on a lot of sports. He had a bookie and everything and he'd throw fits about the Mets and the New York Giants
Starting point is 00:07:41 and the Knicks and I paid no attention at all except when he'd get an envelope full of cash, which was great. That was always very exciting. But then my kids started playing high level sports and I started to see what it meant to them and started to get to know the other kids and their personalities and the stories that came along with the game. And I became a pretty knowledgeable basketball fan
Starting point is 00:08:02 and I fell in love with college basketball and abracadabra. I'm a sports fan. You know, in our current time when everything is fragile and unsteady and so complicated and where so many things seem like lose-lose proposition, here are sports which, despite the dubious character of some of the participants and the corruption of the leagues, sports always come down to a definable contest. There's a great line in that old Walter Hill B-movie cult film, The Driver, Bruce Stern,
Starting point is 00:08:36 who's always so good. I love Bruce Stern. He plays this rough cop and at one point he says, you know what I do first thing every morning? Read the sports page. You know why? Best part of the newspaper. Winners, losers, how it happened, final score.
Starting point is 00:08:51 I love that. The clarity of that. God, is that appealing? No bullshit. You can't editorialize a final score. Winners, losers, heroes, heartbreak, elation. What's not to love? That's why I'm so glad that today we get to talk
Starting point is 00:09:07 to one of the greatest of all champions, Billie Jean King. Hi, I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Okay, let me set the stage here. In 1966, when today's guest first reached number one in the world in tennis, women couldn't serve on juries in any of the 50 states. They couldn't get an undergraduate degree from almost any Ivy League college. They couldn't run the Boston Marathon. They couldn't legally refuse sex with their husbands. Of course, there were some things they could do.
Starting point is 00:10:20 They could get fired for being pregnant. They could be denied a credit card without a male co-signer. And they could play any sport they wanted, just none professionally, except golf. And that's in 1966, not 1866. Then along came Billie Jean King. 39 Grand Slams, 20 Wimbledon titles, a lifetime of battling for and winning women's right to equal pay, not just in tennis, but way, way beyond. She founded and led the Women's Tennis Association and is the first female athlete ever to receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Not to mention over 90 million people worldwide watched the match we now call the Battle of the Sexes. I mean seriously folks, let that sink in. Almost a quarter of Americans tuned in
Starting point is 00:11:12 to watch her beat Bobby Riggs in 1973 in three straight sets, might I add. She's a sports icon, she's an LGBTQ plus icon, a feminist icon, and let's face it, she's just basically iconic. It's no exaggeration to say that Billie Jean King has changed the world. She is arguably the most important athlete of our time. I could not be more thrilled to talk to a woman who is so much wiser than me, the one and only Billie Jean King.
Starting point is 00:11:40 Hi. Hi, after that I'm going to stop. Don't stop, you gotta keep going. You gotta keep going. Oh that, I'm going to stop. Don't stop. You got to keep going. You got to keep going. Oh, no. I'm not done yet. Are you kidding? Everybody says, well, now that you're so old, you know, what are you going to do? And I said, I'm not done yet. You haven't even started. No, because I still have a lot of energy. So, I'm going to... Well, so, speaking of age, are you comfortable if we say you're real age? Oh, yeah. I love it. I never... I'm 80. I just turned 80 last November, November 22nd.
Starting point is 00:12:09 But how old do you feel? I don't know what's 80 supposed to feel like. I always ask myself, like, when I was 60, when I was 50, when I was 40, when I was 30, when I was 20, I'm like, what am I supposed to feel? I don't know. I am what I am. The number is there, but it's really how is my health, I think. Danielle Pletka Right. Yeah, your health. Elana Miller Your health and how you feel and how do you feel? How do I feel physically, emotionally, mentally? You know, I ask myself those questions. I mean, I still do therapy every week, psychotherapy. Danielle Pletka
Starting point is 00:12:38 Psychotherapy. Elana Miller Oh, absolutely. Danielle Pletka What about physical therapy? Elana Miller I don't need physical therapy. Well, El Lana, my wife got me out during COVID to hit tennis balls again. I hadn't for 20 years. I had a lot of knee operations and shoulder, everything. And I said, okay, let's try it because I just love it so much. I mean, I love to hit the ball. So we do two or three times a week now. Lana was number one in the world in doubles and she still plays a lot. So she's younger, she's in her late 60s, so she hits the ball right to me.
Starting point is 00:13:14 It's just amazing. I meet people that are playing and we have a 100 and under event category for people that are 100 and under. And it is hilarious. You know what shot they use all the time is a drop shot because you can't move and it's hilarious. But wait a minute, wait a minute, who's the oldest? I don't know who the oldest one is. I don't know.
Starting point is 00:13:35 I've got to find out. No, I don't know. You got to find out. I will find out. Somebody's got to be in their 90s, right? Oh, for sure. Oh, no, no. They're just like probably 98, 99 in there. Oh, for sure. Oh, no, no. They're just like probably 98, 99 in there.
Starting point is 00:13:45 Yeah, for sure. Hey, so what's your relationship with your body like now, Billie Jean? I mean, has it changed as you've gotten older? Is your brain moving faster than your body? How does that work? Oh, the brain definitely goes a little faster than the body now, but my brain's slower too. I think I've always been in tune with my body.
Starting point is 00:14:03 My brother, I just so everybody knows, a lot of people do know this, a lot of people do not have a younger brother, he's five years, almost five years younger, four years, 11 months. Randy Moffat, Moffat's our birth name and he played professional baseball for 12 years. Most of those with the San Francisco Giants. But the third word we learned was ball, you know, mommy ball, daddy ball. We just, we are infatuated. They can roll it on the ground, they can throw it in the air, we didn't care. And then as you get older, you start to realize it's science and art
Starting point is 00:14:34 together. And you want to be playing in front of people, you're a performer. It's so much fun. It's very expressive. It's like, I love dance. I love ballet. I love all that. I like to. My son Charlie is a, was a D1 athlete. He played basketball. He had a teacher when he was in sixth grade. He had real trouble sitting still. By the way, his first word was also ball. Uh-oh. And, right. And so he had this teacher who was incredibly intuitive and she let him bounce a ball during class. Smart.
Starting point is 00:15:08 Smart, right? Very. So he was able to concentrate as a result. Tracy, shout out to Tracy. That was incredible that she let him do that. Yeah, brilliant. Well, that's very interesting because in school I got demoted with my grades when I did too well in sports because I'm a girl. Demoted with grades?
Starting point is 00:15:26 Yeah, I got unsatisfactory instead of sass factory in fourth grade, because Miss Policek said that I had done too well in sports, and kind of like braggio show, I guess, to her. I didn't say anything. I just did it. And she said, I'm going to give you an unsatisfactory because of that.
Starting point is 00:15:43 Now, that would never, to a boy, he would be honored and. Yeah, he would be lauded for it. And she said, I'm going to give you an unsatisfactory because of that. Now that would never to a boy, he would be honored and yeah, he would be lauded for it. Correct. That's the difference growing up always getting negative feedback for doing what I wanted to do. But wait, how did your parents react to that? When you got the unsatisfactory, they just let it go. They said, just ignore it. Don't worry. Just keep going. My, my mother didn't want me to play football and other sports because she wanted me to be a lady at all times. And I said, Mommy, what does that mean? She said, Oh, you know. And I said, No, Mommy, I don't know what that means. I just remember that. So when I was playing tennis, she was happier, happier. But my dad understood totally. He was,ball is our first love. So he was a basketball player.
Starting point is 00:16:26 And he got asked back in the 40s to join the NBA and he didn't because there wasn't any money in it at the time. And he's very risk adverse that generation with the Depression, World War II. But no, he came home and became a firefighter, which I love that he was a firefighter. Oh, God. Yeah, I love that too. I loved it, but it was very difficult when he'd go to work because I never knew if he's going to come back. So, he was a proper hero, right?
Starting point is 00:16:58 Well, to me he was because he believed in me as much as my brother as well. Yeah. I mean, he told me to go for it. And everybody else around me was saying, huh? They didn't really care. But I really wanted to change the world through sports, through my sport. I know you did. And that's really what, you know, it's, I wanted us to be a pro sport.
Starting point is 00:17:19 We were an amateur sport. It was so terrible. I used to just go crazy. Hey, listen, let me ask you something just because I'm interested about this because you're obviously so fit and here you are 80 years old. You are. You're right. I am fit for an 80 year old, but I don't, you know, I want. Come on, give me a break. Oh, I'm also lifting again. I'm also doing a lot of weight work.
Starting point is 00:17:38 This is what, okay, so that's my question. What's your exercise regime besides playing tennis two to three times a week with Ilana? What else are you doing? Lifting weights? I've started lifting weights again. I made a promise this year, instead of doing it sporadically, I'd be pretty consistent, which I have been. But we're still working full-time. And work itself and traveling like we do, I think also keeps me fit, also keeps my mind active, solving challenges, not problems. And I am so happy I was in sports because it's made me strong. It's just helped me be strong in every way. There's something, well, it must be like you when you're acting. I always wonder what actors go through.
Starting point is 00:18:18 In terms of what? Like the pressure that's on you, like they say, let's go, you know, and you have to start the scene. And of course, if it's not live, which I'm sure you're thrilled with Seinfeld and others, that you didn't work live because I don't know how you guys get through a scene without cracking up at each other. Well, sometimes we did. But having said that, there are endorphins that are, you know, the butterflies, whatever you want to call them, that are racing through. It's the same racing through your body when you're working.
Starting point is 00:18:49 Yes. I mean, even now talking to you, I can feel that, you know, I want to have a good conversation with you. I can feel that driver, you know, that's in place. And it can paralyze you, but it can also be a great fuel. And I usually use it for fuel, to tell you the truth. I'm a fuel person. I like pressure. I have a saying, pressure's a privilege. I know. I love that saying. It is a privilege.
Starting point is 00:19:12 It is a privilege to have our opportunities for you to do what you've done and continue to do and what I do and what I did. And you know what I don't like about getting older is people give up on you. Oh, come on. Who's given up on you? No, there's ageism involved. There really is. Talk about that. Talk about that. All right, let's take commercials on television. Let's just take commercials.
Starting point is 00:19:32 And not just television, obviously, it's everything now. Yeah. I'd like people to, when they watch commercials, to really pay attention to who's in them. Let's just talk about the ones athletes are in. It's usually male athletes. They're older, but they are the ones who get the ads. If you'd see a woman, she's usually a lot younger, probably around 30.
Starting point is 00:19:54 They don't give us the same opportunities. Do you know how many times they'll have a woman athlete or any woman and they'll say, she's such a great role model for women? Now go to a male, if a male's a role model, they don't say, oh, he's a great role model for men. They don't say, he's a great role model. No, they just say he's a great role model. I mean, hello. It's like, everyone can be a role model for somebody if that's what the person likes. Like for me, Althea Gibson was my first Shiro. And she was the first to win. And I didn't think of her that
Starting point is 00:20:26 way. I thought of her as the number one player. And if you can see it, you can be it. So I saw her live when I was 13 and I realized how good I'd have to be. And I went, oh my gosh, I'm going to have to be that. Oh, I'm going to have to practice so hard. Oh my God. But you knew you were going to do it. Yeah, well, I certainly hoped to. Of course, that was my goal since the time I was 11, to be number one in the world. There was no question. But still, to see Althea made a huge difference in my life in that she was number one. And if you can see it, you can be it.
Starting point is 00:21:01 You know how good you have to be and what made her great. I'm just so struck by the realization that you had when you were 12. I mean, you saw that so many people were being excluded from tennis, and you decided to work on changing that. No, it wasn't tennis. It was life. It was like watching Little Rock,
Starting point is 00:21:17 and like the Little Rock Nine are watching that black kids couldn't go to school with the white kids. And I asked my dad, why is that? That's ridiculous. He says, well, it's the South. And because it's Southern California, that never happened to me. I mean, it didn't matter.
Starting point is 00:21:35 And that really bothered me. Yeah, of course. And you also noticed that it was like only white people playing tennis, right? When you went to that country club. Yeah, absolutely. I just, everybody wore white clothes, everybody played with white balls, and everybody played with white. I said, that's not right. This belongs to everyone. It's such a great sport.
Starting point is 00:21:52 Although I didn't have the know-how at 12 years old that there were black people playing, but I had never seen them. But there were. They formed their own association, the ATA in 1916. So they had their tournaments, but they weren't allowed to play in the white tournaments. Just like if you go to the US Open today, which a lot of people do, it's huge, it's one of the majors. And well, black people weren't allowed to play until 1950. And that's when Althea was a player of the 50s. And that's when Althea was a player of the 50s. And that's when she won everything.
Starting point is 00:22:25 And she won the US Nationals, now that it would be the US Open. And she was the first to win. Without her, there wouldn't have been an Arthur Atsch or a Zena Garrison or a Serena or a Venus or all these great players. And so I think that was a good example. It's time for a quick break, but don't worry. There's more with Billie Jean King in just a bit. Support for On with Kara Swisher comes from Elf Beauty.
Starting point is 00:23:00 Elf Beauty is making beauty accessible to every eye, lip, and face, and they're democratizing access across all pillars of business while they do it. A big part of the E.L.F. story is that they're the only U.S. publicly traded company with 78% women and 44% diversity on their board, but they don't want to be the only one. If you're not convinced that ethnic and gender diversity is important to your business' success, here are some statistics for you to chew on. From a five-year data set, S&P 500 companies with above-average gender diversity on their boards saw a 15% return on equity and a 50% reduction in earnings risk measured by EPS
Starting point is 00:23:36 over a year. But despite these encouraging numbers, boardrooms across America are still majority white and majority men. You can read all about this and more in the Not So White Paper. It was developed by ELF in collaboration with the largest HBCU in the country, North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University. And it's part of ELF's Change the Board Game campaign, where they're working to make boards and C-suite roles
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Starting point is 00:24:21 When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore. That's Ian Mitchell, a banker turned fraud fighter. These days, online scams look more like crime syndicates than individual con artists. And they're making bank.
Starting point is 00:24:45 Last year, scammers made off with more than $10 billion. It's mind-blowing to see the kind of infrastructure that's been built to facilitate scamming at scale. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of scam centers all around the world. These are very savvy business people. These are organized criminal rings. And so once we understand the magnitude of this problem, we can protect people better. One challenge that fraud fighters like Ian face
Starting point is 00:25:13 is that scam victims sometimes feel too ashamed to discuss what happened to them. But Ian says one of our best defenses is simple. We need to talk to each other. We need to have those awkward conversations around what do you do if you have text messages you don't recognize? What do you do if you start getting asked
Starting point is 00:25:31 to send information that's more sensitive? Even my own father fell victim to a, thank goodness, a smaller dollar scam, but he fell victim and we have these conversations all the time. So we are all at risk and we all need to work together to protect each other. Learn more about how to protect yourself at vox.com slash zelle. And when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust.
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Starting point is 00:27:12 But what I'm so struck by is that you were so sensitive to sort of the disenfranchised at a very young age, and I'm wondering where you think, how did that happen? Where did that sort of intuition that you had, where did that come from? Was that the culture in your family or what? I think my parents were good to each other, kind to each other, which I think was huge. Just watching how they related. Not to say it was perfect or anything, God knows that, but they get into it, but not. They're very good to each other and very kind and thought about others. But also, you know, leaders don't choose followers. Followers choose leaders. And a lot of times in sports, you need somebody to choose a team, for instance. And the kids always chose me to be the leader or the captain.
Starting point is 00:27:54 And I was on a bicycle committee and I was only supposed to be the secretary, but they ended up always saying, you lead, you do this. I go, no, no, no, you do, you do. Wait a minute, wait a minute, bicycle committee. Yeah, we had a bicycle committee in elementary school, which I have no idea what it means now. No, I think we had to keep our bikes in a certain area. We had to take care of them.
Starting point is 00:28:14 We had to put them in these racks. You got to just do the right thing and all that at the school, keep them in the right place. I love that. So I was on that committee. But I was always pushed into leadership positions. And finally in Tennessee, when we're older, the players said, no, you're the one, you're the one. I go, no, no, no. Why not you? Typical girls, when they're trying to go out to dinner, where do you want to go to eat? Oh, I don't care. What do you want?
Starting point is 00:28:43 I don't know, where do you want to go? So if there's a guy in the group, I always ask the guy, go, where do you want? And he goes, I want to go here. We go, great. Someone made a decision. Because we're taught always to think about somebody else. Okay. Always take care of the other. So anyway, the players pushed me. Finally, I just remember one night just kind of daydreaming, lying down on the bed and just thinking, you know what, I'm going to not only accept this, I'm going to thrive on it because I'm meant to. I thought back to my epiphany as a kid, how I felt about everything. I go, what am I doing? I'm meant to do this. And that was it. I just embraced it and absolutely decided to be the best leader I could be. But to be a great leader to me means, for instance, it can't be a me, you have to be we,
Starting point is 00:29:34 or you can't be I, you have to be us, you know, or you have to include others in your, it's always about what can I do to help the people have a better life? How can I make it better for all of us, but particularly them first? And that's what makes me tick is creating opportunities for others. That's really what I love. Starting the Women's Sports Foundation, I founded it 50 years ago. We have our 50th anniversary this year. I am so stoked. We've given out over $100 million of just helping kids, especially girls of color. stoked. We've given out over $100 million of just helping kids, especially girls of color. Also, we work with the National Women's Law Center over Title IX. Those are the things that matter to me a lot. Have you ever very deeply doubted yourself as a leader?
Starting point is 00:30:25 Oh, for sure. You always wonder, especially when you didn't make it happen. You know, if I didn't make it happen, I go, God, where did I go wrong? But you know what? You're only as good as the team is. Also, relationships are everything. They really are. Yeah, right. It starts from that.
Starting point is 00:30:39 But like, when was an example where it didn't go the way you wanted and then you had doubts? What would be an example of that, Billie Jean? Well, the thing I love the most probably in tennis is World Team Tennis started in 1974. Ilana and I ended up running it over time over the last part of it. We sold it to billionaires because we thought we really need more money in this if we're going to do it right and they wanted it. So we sold it to them, but they let it go eventually.
Starting point is 00:31:06 And so I was very upset with myself. And I thought, God, if I could start over. Of course, it's so easy in hindsight. There wasn't the money in 74 that there is now. Now people are investing in women's sports. They're actually investing in it, not helping us. They think it's a great investment now for the very first time. Yeah, they think it's an economic opportunity, which it is, by the way.
Starting point is 00:31:31 It is, but we're over 100 years late. I mean, it's like, it is really a lot of work and long-term investment, but it's worth it because it gives women and girls a platform they didn't have. And to help these kids, I keep telling them, every one of you is a leader in your town, your state, your country, your world. You, if you decide, whatever makes you happy, to do things. But look how much you can give back to kids coming up. But more importantly, it's about how can we help others that don't have as much? And women should try to make a lot of money.
Starting point is 00:32:06 I tell women to be ambitious. We need to have more women on boards. Yes, we do. We need more women on boards. We need more women positions of leadership. We need more women, period, making decisions. Oh, yeah. Which, oh, God, this reminds me, by the way, I wanted to ask you about Renee Richards,
Starting point is 00:32:24 the first transgender woman to play for the WTA back in the 70s. Correct. Can you tell us that story about how you convinced the players at the WTA to allow Renee to come on board? Can you tell us that story? So good. Yes.
Starting point is 00:32:38 Ilana, my wife, she's the only person ever to play Renee as a male and Renee as a woman. It is amazing. Okay, that's by the way, an incredible fact. But tell, I mean, how did you get the other women on the tour to let Renee play? Tell that part. Well, I went and talked to doctors. I said, how should we perceive this?
Starting point is 00:33:03 I'm very ignorant. And they said, no, she's considered a woman. I said, how should we perceive this? I'm very ignorant. And they said, no, she's considered a woman. I said, okay. I said, do you think she should be able to play as a woman? And they said, yes. I called Renee, which for me is hard to call. If you know me well, I'm very actually shy and I have a hard time calling people. So. Pete Okay. I have, I do have a problem believing what you just said. Donna Well, you can ask Alana. she'll tell you. I sucked it up. Okay. And also, it's not about me here, it's about others. I'm good when it's about the team, okay?
Starting point is 00:33:31 Yeah, I hear that. Okay. And I called her and I said, can I listen to you and talk to you? And she's great. So we talked for four hours. I listened to her and I went back to the women. I said, you guys, we really should let her play. I've gone to the doctor, I've done some homework. And they said, no. And I said, okay, I hear you. And I had this thing with the women that always used to work. I finally figured it out. Which is? I said, how about if we try to let her play for two weeks? I would cut the time down really tight, short. So it's like a sample.
Starting point is 00:34:03 Yeah. You know, and like, it won't be too much for them psychologically, emotionally to handle. And they go, okay, we'll try that. Okay, so she comes on the tour. And within three or four days, they come up to you, she is so nice. She is so great. Because they were worried about the locker room. There's a lot of things that go through your mind that we're so ignorant we don't understand. Oh, they loved her. They were fine. They were fine after that. That was fine. Now it's very different though because there's a lot more transgender athletes and should they be allowed to play in elite competition, some people are very
Starting point is 00:34:42 emphatic about it that they shouldn't. I'm on the side of inclusion as my first want. And so I don't want anyone to be excluded, so we got to figure this out. Yeah, we got to figure it out. Because I don't want anyone not to be able to participate. That's what kills me. So you've spent so much of your life making the world as you'd continue to do today a better place for everybody else. Have you always taken care of yourself? Do you think that this is a way of putting off taking
Starting point is 00:35:13 care of yourself to a certain extent? Oh, for sure, when I was younger. But I took care of myself when I was playing because it was part of the goal. Like eat so many calories a day, work out, take good care of myself. I have to, it's part of my job. Like eat so many calories a day, work out, take good care of myself, that I have to, it's part of my job. I see. I was very good then. But then, you know, I have an eating disorder and I'm a binge eater.
Starting point is 00:35:34 Every morning I wake up, I tell myself, I have an eating disorder. I still go to therapy, I still think about it. It's interesting with the new injections, you know, with the ozimbics of the world. It's very interesting because my doctor wants me to try it. Do you want to? I don't want to lose weight fast because I think it looks horrible. I don't think it's healthy. I would like to lose it slowly, but the important thing my therapist asked me, which I hadn't
Starting point is 00:36:09 thought about, is that she said, has it quieted your mind? Because I've taken a few injections now. I went, whoa, that's interesting. Because with an eating disorder, I have like two voices in my head sometimes that argue. And what do they say? It's two sides. Let's say I want a quart of an ice cream. One side will say, yeah, baby, I'm going to have that ice cream no matter what. And the other side says, no, don't do that. It's not healthy. You know, you don't need it. You're not going to miss it. The other side goes, screw you, I'm having this ice cream. So, I have this discussion that goes on in my head and sometimes
Starting point is 00:36:51 it's very elevated. I mean, it really elevates. And that's why I thought it was very interesting because this is, we talk about this in eating disorders. And it was such a great question because if it does do that... Quiet the voices. Quiet the voice. If that's a part of it, now I'm on it because that would be really great because that gets exhausting and tiring. And I don't want to fight over these things.
Starting point is 00:37:19 It's like, God, do I have to go through this again every day? It's not every day. Right. It's just different moments. And then I say, am I under more stress? Is that why this is happening? No, that doesn't follow at all. No, I've tried that.
Starting point is 00:37:32 So the point is, I still get it. It doesn't matter. So I got to pay attention. That's the main thing. When exactly did you start to sort of look after yourself? Really? I'd say when I was around 50. And I was going through all my sexuality stuff like, oh my god, it was a mess.
Starting point is 00:37:48 And that, I think, caused a lot of my eating disorder as well. So what happened at 50? I went to Renfrew in Philadelphia back in 95-ish. And I went to therapy. And I lived there for six weeks. And when you go there, you cannot communicate with the outside world, really. And I would go to therapy three times a week. There's also couples you have to go to, which Ilana about fainted. She goes, what? She goes, what?
Starting point is 00:38:17 Wait a minute. Renfrew is an eating disorder clinic, is it? Yes. You go and live there. Okay. Yeah. And every Friday you have family. Oh, boy. It's rough. And then you have every hour on the hour, you have a different like movement therapy, sculpture therapy, everything therapy, whatever.
Starting point is 00:38:36 Did your parents come? They finally came after I just kept pleading with them to come. They came once. And how did that go? It went all right. It went pretty good, except my dad leaned over to me and he's so cute. He goes, Billy, you're not like these other girls here. And I looked at him and I go, Dad, I'm exactly like these girls here.
Starting point is 00:38:54 He started laughing. I started laughing because we always had a sense, you know, we could always laugh at anything. We started howling. And I go, Dad, there's this whole big group there. What do you mean? No, because he thinks I'm at anything. We started howling. And I go, Dad. Wait. And there's this whole big group there. What do you mean? No, because he thinks I'm fine.
Starting point is 00:39:08 He thinks I'm great. And I go, Dad. Oh. I go, Dad, I'm just like them. I'm struggling. And he goes, OK, honey, I hear you. Or sis, you'd call me. Oh.
Starting point is 00:39:17 When things were good with sis, when it was Billie Jean, if I came through the door, I knew I was in big trouble. What about your mom? What was that like to have her there? My mother had a harder time than my dad with my being gay or trying to figure out who I am, bisexual in the beginning. I don't know. But no, and I noticed you call your mother mommy.
Starting point is 00:39:36 I call my mother mommy too, and I love calling my mother mommy. She also loved hearing it and receiving it. Yeah, it's cozy, isn't it? Oh, it's like a big hug. It's just adorable. It's like a big hug. That's exactly right. And my boys call me mommy and I love it.
Starting point is 00:39:51 I love mommy. I call my mommy up to the end of her life. Yeah, and you call your daddy daddy, right? I call him daddy, yeah. I call him daddy, yeah. Obviously I'm 80, they're not alive anymore, unfortunately, I wish they were. They were, I got, my brother and I talk about how fortunate we were to have them.
Starting point is 00:40:09 And they never really ask us if we won. You know, so many parents go, did you win? Did you win? Did you win? I know. They go, how'd your day go? Of course, if I lost, I was just crazed. I said, I lost my match.
Starting point is 00:40:21 I lost my match. I was so bad. My dad would go, I just have one question. Did you try your best? I said, of course I tried my match. I lost my match. I was so bad. My dad would go, I just have one question. Did you try your best? I said, of course I tried my best. He goes, that's good enough. Yeah, you're lucky. Yeah, I am lucky.
Starting point is 00:40:33 You're very lucky. I have to say, our son that I mentioned to you, he was a basketball player when he was young, and if he lost a game, my husband and I would negotiate who was going to drive him home if we were there in separate cars and she'd often work. I love it. That is so great. Because he would be screaming and writhing in the back seat if they lost. Oh, I should have been with him.
Starting point is 00:40:56 We would have had a great time. He was hysterical. I mean, it was so fucking bad with him in the back seat. I'm telling you. So how did you decide you wanted to be in entertainment? Can I ask you this? Yeah, you can ask me anything. Yeah, I'd rather ask you questions, really.
Starting point is 00:41:10 I just always wanted to be an actor, just like from my earliest memory, I was always performing. Yeah, you were, because your mother explained that. You asked her how was I as a girl, remember, in one of your interviews? Yeah. When you talked to her, and she said you were dialogue, you had dialogue going and you had
Starting point is 00:41:30 this going and she said you were always basically acting, but she didn't say it that way. When we were in nursery school, they used to have nap time, you know? And I would get, I would stand on my blanket and I would dance for people during nap time. Oh, that's great. Yeah. So you liked dancing too? Well, I liked performing. So my nap time dance was, it seemed to be a big hit among the nursery
Starting point is 00:41:57 school students. It would have been great. Oh my God, I remember kindergarten. That's what we're supposed to have, these little naps. I'm like, huh? I want to go out and play. Can I go play basketball? Can I go play baseball, softball? Can I go? You know, I have to tell you, when I was in, I didn't play much tennis
Starting point is 00:42:13 because the one thing that I get, when I start to compete physically in a sport, I get very anxious, it's not for me. But I did go to a tennis camp when I was in eighth grade or seventh grade and they gave awards out at the end and they gave me miscongeniality. Okay, but it's like, I can just see that. But it's interesting that you feel anxious. And when I listen to you how you feel when you perform, is how I feel when I play tennis. I don't feel that anxiety that you feel at the tennis camp
Starting point is 00:42:54 at all. I want to be where I am. I love it. I want... In fact, I love tennis to be more boisterous. I think it's too quiet. I think we should have names on the back of the shirt. I think we are just so out of it. Because you know, I keep saying, you guys, everybody wants, I said, you're talking to 40 year olds, you're talking to 50 year olds. I said, what about the seven, 10 year olds? Their concentration spans seven seconds now.
Starting point is 00:43:19 I mean, we gotta do different, we gotta do, but I've wanted this forever for our sport, okay? Because I grew up in the other sports, like having, hey, how about having, you know, and Mimelun went backwards, they go, oh no, we're going to go back to all white. What? I said, oh great. So now you turn me- You want me to all white clothes? Yeah, all white, all white. No, no predominantly white anymore. So, so I turn it on and go, oh great, both people have white at each end. Okay, great, who's who? It's ridiculous. We're out to lunch.
Starting point is 00:43:49 How do you make that change? That's actually an interesting change to try to... No, I'm just going to keep trying. Because we have the Billie Jean King Cup, which is the World Cup of women's tennis now, and they renamed it after me, and now we're involved in that, and we want to make that... Like the soccer World Cup, it's the World Cup of tennis and the men's, it's Davis Cup and we're working with them and I think there's a real culture to it that we are missing out on that would be fun for the audience because when you perform as you know, everything is about your audience and that tennis court is our stage. When I look at a tennis court, I go, oh, that's my stage, yeah, baby, That tennis court is our stage. When I look at a tennis court, I go, oh, that's my stage.
Starting point is 00:44:24 Yeah, baby. Give me the ball, you know, type of feeling. So when you walk out there, it's, you know, here's what most players think, or athletes, they think everyone's there for them. No, we're there for the audience. Our job is to make the audience have a great day, a great moment. And when they go home at night, they go, God, that was great, that was whatever. And I wanna go back or I wanna take up this
Starting point is 00:44:48 or I wanna do that. It's like, we are there for them. And everybody in tennis thinks the audience is there for them. And I'm like, oh my God, you're so I, I, I. It's we, them, I don't know. That's how I think. So can we just, let's talk about for a second, female empowerment. Have you always in your
Starting point is 00:45:09 life felt equal to men? I've never felt equal to men. Aha. Talk about that, Billie Jean King. Let me correct that. I do feel equal. The world doesn't feel we're equal. That's what it is. The world looks at us differently. I don't particularly look at us that much differently, just personally on a personal level.
Starting point is 00:45:33 But every single day I have to deal with some misogyny. If I'm around a male athlete, I'm definitely in the background. And yet, people who are in the know sometimes will say, hey, bud, you should move over. You're not even close to what she's done or something occasionally. We're second class citizens all the time. And pay and attention, the money we make is always less.
Starting point is 00:46:03 That's why I want women's sports to do well, because I know the more we make, the more people appreciate us, the more they think about every single job though. It's about thinking, oh, women deserve to have the same. Yeah, we shouldn't have to be going through this, but how you started the program is exactly what the challenge is.
Starting point is 00:46:21 Not to be able to give a credit card when I was playing. Also, in 1966 actually, what the challenge is. Not to be able to get a credit card when I was playing. And also, in 1966 actually, Title IX hadn't happened. Title IX happened in 72. So I didn't get a scholarship, I didn't get paid to go to college. I worked two jobs. And nobody gave, I think it had been reversed. Let's say I'm the one that got to go to school, to college on a scholarship, Let's say I'm the one that got to go to college on a scholarship and the guys didn't, I guarantee everybody would be absolutely crazed that the men don't. When the men don't get something, they go crazy. Well, they need to do that more and more for us. And they're listened to.
Starting point is 00:46:57 You know, it's funny, I was talking to my friend, Paul, about this just yesterday and we were saying, you know, it's interesting how many times in conversations, just in social conversation, if a man starts speaking and holding forth, right? Yeah, everybody shuts up. Everyone, right, everyone shuts up and including myself, by the way, which I'm now, as I say, that's very irritated with myself about that. But there is this sort of unspoken, well, that makes sense that he's bloviating. Right? That's too big a word for me. But isn't it a good, no, isn't that a good word though? Doesn't that totally describe what it is? Yeah, it does. But here's what happens in boards.
Starting point is 00:47:38 A woman will have an idea. She comes up with it. But until the guy says exactly the same thing she did, they go, oh, Joe, that was a great idea, even though the woman had said it earlier. And they steal the ideas all the time and take credit for it. I mean, and in my own life, I mean, of course there's misogyny. Well, in entertainment, it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. And I had to struggle Unbelievable. And I had to struggle enormously and really push back to try to get credit as producer on various projects I've worked on. And I got big time pushback despite the fact that I had had decades, decades of experience.
Starting point is 00:48:18 Yeah. And you truly were the producer of the show, one of the producers, at least of the show. Exactly. Right. truly were the producer of the show, one of the producers, at least of the show. Exactly. And I got pushback from studios, from various other producers. I mean, it was a, it's infuriating and it's also sometimes it's, it's just, I'm not going to lie, it's intimidating. Yeah, it is. You know, cause there, there is that little voice that says, oh, really?
Starting point is 00:48:40 Should, do I not deserve this? Am I wrong to be asking? You know? I hope you don't get that much anymore, that part. No, I don't. I don't, but it has been there. Look how much you've won. I mean, we'd say win in sports. I mean, you know, all the Emmys and the awards and I mean, you really have to suck it up. I suck it up all the time. I just,
Starting point is 00:49:01 cause sometimes you can't, you just have to keep quiet because you're not going to win. You know that too. There's certain times you go, okay, I'm going to have to let this one go. I don't like it, but I'm going to have to let it go. We'll get more wisdom from Billie Jean King after this super quick break. Stay tuned. Support for this show comes from 7Rooms. What's the recipe for taking your restaurant to the next level? Well restaurant operators know a key part of it is making more money and making sure
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Starting point is 00:51:10 Learn more at nestle.com. Okay, let's go back in time for a second for our listeners. Okay. So it's 1973, that's Roe v. Wade and the Equal Rights Amendment era. And women are in a real fight for equality at this time. And you, Billie Jean, you get approached by this guy Bobby Riggs, who had been a good player back in the day, but at this point was really more of a showman, right? And he challenges you to an internationally televised match, the Battle of the Sexes. And this is after he'd already beaten the formidable Margaret Court. So you had to win. And people, you really have to understand how big this was. It was huge.
Starting point is 00:51:58 And you played him and thank God, oh my God, I am so happy you won that, Billie Jean. So am I. It was big. It was a huge turning point, really, because Title IX had just been passed the year before. We were in our third year of women's professional tennis. It was very crucial that I win because we had our tour, and I think if I'd lost, I don't know if the tour would have made it or not, because it really helped enhance what we were trying to do. Also, men's professional tennis was young as well. The day after that match, you couldn't get on the tennis court. That's when we had the big tennis boom.
Starting point is 00:52:30 That's just for tennis. But for society, finally in 75, we were allowed to get a credit card on our own, whoopee. Yeah, congratulations. But what it did is it piqued the interest of people, both genders, well, all genders we'd say now, but then both genders, men and women. And women, it really helped their self-confidence. I could not believe how they changed. They would run up to me, thanking me, and then they go, you know what?
Starting point is 00:53:00 I've been wanting a raise for 10 years, and I finally have the courage to ask for it." You know, and I said, well, more importantly, did you get it? And she said, I did get it, because girls are taught not to ask for what we want and need. Right. We are taught, do not go there. Okay?
Starting point is 00:53:18 Do not ask. And they did. Well, there was a cultural shift because you won. And did you know, did you keep in mind what was sort of on the line or did you have to sort of tuck that away and focus on the, how did that work in your head as you were actually playing? Well, I knew six weeks out and six weeks out, I'm a mess. I'm thinking about all the consequences.
Starting point is 00:53:39 I'm picturing myself running every ball down. I'm picturing myself making every shot. I'm picturing bad calls. I picture how I'm going to react to that. I'm not going to react, I'm going to stay, I'm going to get in the next point right away, I'm going to stay focused, I'm not going to talk. I picture myself making every shot, running every shot down, I picture myself getting every serve in, everything, but also responding to things that aren't great. I also go out the day before and meet all the security guards, I meet all the administrators, I meet everybody there.
Starting point is 00:54:14 And nothing is, this is Astrodome, nothing is worse than not, is getting lost in an arena. I get to know everybody. I went in the stands, I went up to the top in the cheap seats to see what it would feel like as a fan. In other words, I totally prepare. I'm really big on preparation. I think process is just how you win. You stay in the now, you stay in the present. Well, I know when you're acting,
Starting point is 00:54:39 aren't you in the present? Totally. And when you don't do well, we're not. Right, in that sense, it's like a meditation. Correct. Because it's just a singular focus, right? Yes. If you talk to other people that are the best in what they do, it always comes down to being in the present, I call it in the now.
Starting point is 00:54:58 Do you meditate, by the way? Yeah, I do meditate, yes. Uh-huh. Every day? Probably, yeah, I think so. And I can meditate for 15 seconds even help. And even in a match, if you're changing ends and you sit down, that's a great time to meditate for 15, 20 seconds. You get about 90 seconds. So take a part of that and just meditate.
Starting point is 00:55:21 Just get your breathing down, just be, and yes, I can do that. But I can compartmentalize very quickly. My brain goes very fast. I can compartmentalize really quickly, which I didn't realize others couldn't do, which I think has been a big help to me. I also knew that if this was going to be my life to try to make this world a better place, that I wouldn't win as many titles. And I was willing not to win as many titles if off the court, if it would make the world a better place, that to me is winning more than ever winning a match against Bobby Riggs. But by the way, you've done both.
Starting point is 00:56:00 You've made the world a better place and you've won a gazillion titles. I'm not finished yet. I know you're not. Okay, I'm not saying you're done. No, I'm kidding. No, I'm kidding you. So it sounds like, I mean, you are obviously an incredibly competitive person and certainly as a tennis player, but also as a businesswoman and as a leader, you have a sense of let's
Starting point is 00:56:21 get it done. Let's win this thing. Am I right? Yes, you're right. And to me, what does that mean? Creating opportunities for the generation now and the generations that will follow that gives them opportunity, it gives them hope, it gives them, and then get scholarships, just helps them be a better player, a better person. Better human being. Yeah, but because there's, you know, as an athlete,
Starting point is 00:56:48 you're done early. So what are you going to do with the rest of your life? You know, like, singers can keep singing. You can keep working in comedy forever. Forever. We know that at a very young age, we cannot do that. Okay. So what are we going to do? So those are the kinds of things we have to think about. Yeah, exactly. Which, by the way, leads me to this question though. So, this is from, I have a niece who's a D3 athlete at Emory, she plays soccer. Emory's great. Yes, great. And I texted her, her name is Grace, and I texted her yesterday and I said, Gracie, I'm talking to Billie Jean King tomorrow. And I said, do you have any questions? And she said the following, to your point, she said, what advice do you have for young athletes
Starting point is 00:57:24 transitioning into the working world and leaving behind life as student athletes? Because, following to your point. She said, what advice do you have for young athletes transitioning into the working world and leaving behind life as student athletes? Because I think she feels sort of untethered without the sport that she's been playing her whole life. Well, there's two things that she could think about. I can stay in soccer, but not play soccer. There's a thousand jobs. That's another great thing. There's jobs all around your sport if you want to stay in it. There's three things that Ed Willard and I, you know, our mentor, Ed Willard, who's the president of DuPont and CEO and dear friend who just passed, he and I, I said to Ed, I need three things for graduations, but I need three things I
Starting point is 00:58:06 can give them that will help them the rest of their lives. I want to do this. I want this to make it simple, easy. The three things are, and they do not have to be in this order, relationships are everything. So while Gracie's playing soccer, meet as many people as you can, get to know everyone, really enjoy them as human beings, get to know them because you never know. You just don't know.
Starting point is 00:58:28 And it's fun. I think it's fun. And it's fun. Well, I love people, so it works for me. But the second one, to keep learning and to keep learning how to learn. Like technology for my age group is rough. Okay? So I'm always asking an eight-year-old, come over here, help me.
Starting point is 00:58:45 Yes. And then the third one is be a problem solver and an innovator. And that means in real life and in work or whatever you do. And those three things, I think as I go through each day, I know I hit on those, at least one of them every day. This is great wisdom what you're imparting. I mean, for real. Do you think that'll help Gracie though? That's why I did it for her. I know. I really appreciate it.
Starting point is 00:59:10 I'm going to tell her. But being in a sport, she can stay in the sport in a different capacity if she loves it, like doesn't want to leave soccer. But more importantly, what else does she want to do? But those three things I think will cover just about any direction she wants to go. Okay, so now listen, I want to do? But those three things, I think, will cover just about any direction she wants to go.
Starting point is 00:59:26 Okay. So now listen, I want to ask you something. I'd like to know if there's something you'd go back and tell yourself at 21. 21, let me think where I was 21. Okay, 21 is right before I went and wumbled in and all that. I probably didn't understand enough at that time about being my authentic self. Like, who am I? I didn't know who I was yet. And nowadays, I think that's the one great thing with today is that I think I would have had a chance, a bigger chance, a better chance to be my authentic self being a younger person today. Not to say it wouldn't be difficult or whatever, because we never know. I think trans people have a really hard time today. I think the LGBT community
Starting point is 01:00:14 is having a harder time again. I don't like it. I think that we should just be kind and good to each other as human beings first. We all bleed red. It doesn't matter what color our skin is, doesn't matter how we self-identify sexually. It doesn't matter that we just start. I always think when I meet somebody that I think of it as a, I go blank. I try to go blank in my head to start with a blank piece of paper in a way before I start drawing who this person is. And that I really always want to think the best of them first. And then if they prove differently over time, then that's a whole other discussion. But I think it's really important to start out with just being kind and good to whoever you meet and don't have any preconceived ideas about them.
Starting point is 01:01:03 And we're all biased. But the important thing is to do a gut check when we are. I always go, stop. Start with nothing first. Just be kind of good unless they prove to you that they're just bad news. They're bad news. Is there anything before we go, is there anything that you want me to know about aging?
Starting point is 01:01:27 You know what I found? I think aging has been in some ways, the greatest in some ways is tough, tough physically, there's no question. And also your mind, you know, mentally, whether I don't want to get dementia, for instance, I'm scared of that because my parents had it, things like that. dementia, for instance. I'm scared of that because my parents had it, things like that. But I'll tell you what's really been fantastic. What? And that is emotionally, I am so happy compared to my young days. I cannot tell you. Really? But I've worked at it through therapy, through thinking, through just going through tough times, but I just emotionally am in such a great place now. Oh, my God. How great is that?
Starting point is 01:02:09 I hope you are now too, but I don't know where everyone is. Yes, I am. No, I am. I'm in a very, you know, touch wood. I'm in a very good place. It sounds like you are, yeah. Yeah, I am. I totally am.
Starting point is 01:02:18 But I'm so happy that you say that. And you're not actually, you know, because on this show, we speak to older women about their wisdom. And that's, you're not the first person who has said that. There is something that you're able to sort of sit comfortably in and let go of a lot at a certain age, which is a complete blessing, right? Yes. And also when you're older, you have perspective that you didn't have as a younger person. You have perspective. You've lived longer. Things don't bother you as much. That's why kids love their grandparents so much. Because the grandparent goes,
Starting point is 01:02:54 yeah. And they say, oh my God, I got to tell them this, but oh my God. And then you tell them, they go, okay. And they go, you're not upset or anything? No, are you okay? Whereas a parent, what? It's so different. Yeah, a lot of hand wringing. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, completely. Yeah, they're more understanding. It's true, it's completely true.
Starting point is 01:03:14 I can't thank you enough for talking with me today. I really enjoyed every second of this conversation. Yeah, me too, it's been great. I really appreciate it. Say hi to everybody and tell your team of people, because everything starts with team, really. Totally. Tell them thanks again for all everything starts with team really. Totally. Tell them thanks again for all their help.
Starting point is 01:03:26 We really appreciate it. And good luck in your lives. Go for it. Oh my God. Billie Jean King. That woman is just so impressive. That human is impressive. Oh, my mom is gonna love to hear about this one.
Starting point is 01:03:43 It's time to get her on a Zoom call. Hi, mommy. Hi, love. How are you? Good, it's rainy, rainy here. Is it raining there? I wish, no, it's full sun, but we talked to Billie Jean King today.
Starting point is 01:04:05 Uh-huh. Wow. And you would just love this woman, Billie Jean King, Mom. It was just, she is such a positive human being. Let's talk about the Bobby Riggs match because, you know, you originally wanted to have this match with her. Billie Jean King is obviously a serious professional athlete has no time for this bullshit match with Bobby Riggs. And then Margaret Court, who was another professional tennis player at the time,
Starting point is 01:04:38 and she did play him and she lost. And so then when Bobby Riggs came to Billie Jean and say, now I'm going to beat you, Billie Jean King realized what was at stake here. She knew that what the symbolism of this match was critical and that she had to win it. I mean, it was sort of a joke match, you know, in many ways. And then it wasn't because- Right, exactly. She won and then it sort of humorous way, it changed the flow of history. Well, it did, didn't it?
Starting point is 01:05:14 I mean, she says that generally speaking, women's self-confidence was lifted up in a way. And it's funny because I think it really seeped into the win, really seeped into the culture in terms of feminism and women's empowerment and sense of self. And he was such a braggadocio and he was going to win and he was going to win and he was going to win. And that made it even more delicious, the fact that she just played the game. And she played him and killed him in three straight sets. And I asked her, does she feel equal to men? And she says she feels equal to men, but that the world doesn't feel that way. What has been your experience as a woman
Starting point is 01:06:02 in a world where men are in charge? as a woman in a world where men are in charge? But from my generation, I would say that one thing in the beginning, I just went along with it. I mean, it just, I accepted that. And you know, when I went to Duke, I went as a pre-med. Well, all I had to do in the South at that time, in the 50s, was say I was gonna go to to med school and they'd say, well, no, women don't go to med school. And I said, oh, okay. So, so I mean, that's,
Starting point is 01:06:30 that shows you that, that I was, whatever they said was fine. And it's, it's only, I said to a friend of mine one time that I think my generation was sort of, uh, side swiped byed by feminism, the feminist movement. In other words, it sort of happened to us. We didn't, well, people like Billie Jean King made it happen, but most of us were sort of living with the reality of it and sort of keeping our skills and our power to ourselves. So women with other women could be, do all kinds of things,
Starting point is 01:07:08 but it let a man enter the room and it was a very charged and different atmosphere. And describe what that means, like how is it charged and how is it different? The women were the generators when they were together and talking. But if a man came in, there was a kind of a giving over. It's like, oh, well, what we have to say, what do you have to say, what do you think? That's what's really important. And then in so many instances, even
Starting point is 01:07:37 now in a room, it'll be the men that, I mean, for a woman to be heard in a room, sometimes even, is like people sort of sit back and, I mean, it's sort of noticed. Not so much now, maybe, because of course we've had... Well, maybe now, mom. Maybe now. I mean, I'm certainly aware of that, you know? I'm certainly aware of the fact that if, like in a writer's room, for example, male writers are much more comfortable taking charge and saying what's what and speaking up in a way that women aren't necessarily. I mean, I realize that's a big generalization. Of course, it's not always the case,
Starting point is 01:08:30 but it's funny how it's sort of that inequity has tiny little roots that have filtered into the culture in a way that is poisonous without our even realizing it. I think that's really a wonderful way to put it. And you know, what's interesting is that when you get older, and I would say that there are more women now living longer than men, and they are taking charge. I mean, they do, they take charge,
Starting point is 01:08:59 and they don't think too much about it. I mean, it's just like, I've sort of been waiting always, I've always done this, or I've, it's just like, I've sort of been waiting always, I've always done this, or I've been waiting to do this, or they it's within them as something that hasn't always been tapped. And they're just waiting for the guys to die and then they're gonna. That's one way. But you know, one thing when I'm excited about you having talked to Billie Jean King is because she truly was iconic, is iconic.
Starting point is 01:09:27 I mean, she's a figure that represents so much right turning, correct being, and she seemed to have that like a motor in her that was just going to go. She's got the life force in her, and I say there's a woman that has used it all of her life. All of her life and for the greater good, by the way. Well, thanks to her for, you know, women getting paid in athletics now. Thanks to women getting looked up to in athletics. Women in athletics, period. Even you know, back in the day, the only professional sport women could play was golf. Yeah, but women in athletics period, even, you know, back in the day, the only
Starting point is 01:10:05 professional sport women could play was golf. Yeah, right. That was it. You can play any sport professionally, i.e. be paid for it. And, um, by the way, she loves that I call you mommy. Oh, because she calls her mom or call her mother's passed away now, but she called her mom, mommy and her dad dad daddy, just like we do. I love that.
Starting point is 01:10:28 There's something so cozy about that, you know, that's what I said to her. She says it's like a giant hug. It is. It is. And when you hear mommy, you know, like when you hear it, I don't know what your boys call you, but when mommy they call, they call me Mommy or Mama. Yeah. Right.
Starting point is 01:10:47 It's just, it's too wonderful. It's too wonderful. So keep it up for all, for everything. 100%, Mommy. I always will. All right, Mama, I'm going to say goodbye to you. I love you. Thank you.
Starting point is 01:10:59 I love you too, honey. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Follow the show at Wiser Than Me on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook too. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonade and Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Jamila Zara Williams, Alex McOwen, and Oja Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is VP of New Content and our SVP of Weekly Content and Production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Cramer
Starting point is 01:11:53 and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with Engineering Help from James Sparber and our music was written by Henry Hall who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up. ["Wise Old Lady"]
Starting point is 01:12:29 Support for this episode comes from AWS. AWS Generative AI gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced cloud. Autograph Collection Hotels offer over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Hand selected for their inherent craft, each hotel tells its own unique story through distinctive design and immersive experiences, from medieval falconry to volcanic wine tasting. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of over 30 hotel brands around the world. Find the unforgettable at AutographCollection.com.

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