On with Kara Swisher - Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus: Billie Jean King
Episode Date: November 28, 2024Happy Thanksgiving, On listeners — today, we’re featuring a special episode of Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus, one of our favorite podcasts! On Wiser Than Me, Julia shares funny, heartfel...t conversations with iconic older women who bring the unapologetic wisdom and confidence that only comes with age. On this episode of Wiser Than Me, Julia chats with 80-year-old tennis pro, activist, and LGBTQ+ icon Billie Jean King. Billie Jean delves into the nature of leadership, visualization, and her long journey towards self-acceptance. Inspired by the sports legend, Julia asks Billie Jean for advice about her niece’s college soccer career, as well as revealing the original spark that lit her own love of sports. Additionally, Julia’s mom, Judy, reflects on her generation's acceptance of societal norms and the transformative power of the feminist movement. To hear more of Wiser Than Me, head to: https://lemonada.lnk.to/wiserthanmefd Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Transcript
Discussion (0)
Support for On with Kara Swisher comes from Elf Beauty.
Elf is making beauty accessible to every eye, lip, and face,
and they're changing the board game while they do it.
As part of their commitment to diversify corporate boardrooms across the country,
Elf developed the Not So White Paper in collaboration with North Carolina
Agriculture and Technical State University.
One major takeaway from the paper is that when you make your corporate board and
C-suite roles reflect the communities they serve,
it has a positive impact on a business's success.
Read it for yourself at elfbeauty.com backslash not so white paper.
Support for this show comes from Seven Rooms.
For the restaurant operators out there who want to create more regulars on the regular, check out Seven Rooms.
operators out there who want to create more regulars on the regular, check out 7Rooms.
7Rooms is an all-in-one CRM marketing and operations platform that helps you make more money and more magic for your guests. It gives your staff the tools to deliver service that keeps
your guests coming back for more. From direct reservations to smart table management to targeted
text and email marketing, 7Rooms helps you grow your brand and your covers and not your workload.
Learn more at sevenrooms.com.
Seven Rooms.
Make magic.
Make money.
Narrator Support for this show comes from Constant
Contact.
If you struggle just to get your customers to notice you, Constant Contact has what you
need to grab their attention. Constant Contact's award-winning marketing platform offers all the automation, integration,
and reporting tools that get your marketing running seamlessly, all backed by their expert
live customer support.
It's time to get going and growing with Constant Contact today.
Ready, set, grow!
Go to constantcontact.ca and start your free trial today. A quick note before we get to the show.
We're doing a live recording of On with Kara Swisher in New York on Tuesday, December 3rd,
presented by El.L.F.
Cosmetics.
To be CEO, Anjali Sood and I will be tackling gender disparity in the boardroom and exploring
how companies with women in the C-suite have better business outcomes.
I'm really looking forward to it and you should consider joining us because we're
going to cover a wide range of topics, including streaming platforms and representation in
tech and business.
For tickets, visit voxmediaevents.com slash elf.
That's voxmediaevents.com slash elf.
I hope to see you there.
Hi, everyone.
Happy Thanksgiving.
We're busy enjoying the holidays and stuffing our faces with turkey.
So today we're bringing you a special conversation from Julia Louis-Dreyfus that I think you'll really enjoy.
It's an episode of our hit podcast, Wiser Than Me.
I interviewed her back in June and we talked about it at length,
so go back and listen to it if you haven't already.
Also, she is a badass.
In Wiser Than Me, Julia talks with some of the most
incredible older women of our lifetime,
the ones that bring humor, honesty,
and the kind of wisdom that only comes with age.
Women like Jane Fonda, Isabel Allende, Catherine O'Hara, and in this episode, tennis legend
and activist Billie Jean King.
Billie Jean speaks with Julia about leadership, the power of visualization, and her lifelong
quest for self-acceptance.
It's a wonderful conversation.
I can't wait for you to hear it.
To enjoy more of Julia's inspiring stories, be sure to check out Wiser Than Me wherever
you get your podcast, if only to spend time with one of the coolest ladies I know.
I don't exactly know how I became a sports fan because I was not an athlete when I was
young.
I was born in New York and early on I learned to ride a tricycle and I was good at that
tricycle.
I rode it in the hallway of our building.
How much fun is an apartment hallway on a tricycle?
It's like, you know, just imagine being on a racetrack up and down and up and down.
Although as I say this, I am now remembering The Shining and of course, not so fun in that
movie, but in reality is in fact a lot of fun.
But I lived in the city and so I never learned to ride a bike until I was like, I don't
know, eight?
And everybody was riding bikes by then, you know, by eight.
But I kind of missed that window and I was so embarrassed
because I had to have training wheels. I was always unsure of myself on a bike and I still am,
really. I don't really love riding bikes. They scare me. And bikes were the gateway to sports
in elementary school. And so I was just kind of fucked and I just didn't play sports. I went to
an all-girls school and the sports that were available to us were
field hockey, basketball, tennis, and gymnastics.
I did not excel at any of these things.
At a girls' school, the sports girls were popular.
And I think that's one of the great things
about an all-girls school.
Women are the very top of the sports world.
You cheer for girls. And all my best
friends were athletic. So I wanted in on that. So I tried gymnastics. I even competed in
an event. I think this was in fifth or sixth grade or something. It was a big meet. Is
that what it would be? A gymnastics meet? I don't know. Anyway, I had to do this routine
on the balance beam that I practiced and practiced. So I got up on the beam, big
smile and everything, probably pretending I'm Olga Corbett or whatever, and there was
a crowd there. And at that moment, I swear to Lord Jesus, the whole routine went out
of my head completely. Just telling you this right now is making my palms sweat.
I could remember nothing.
So, I just started to make things up.
You know, in the movie version of this, I improvised this great routine and, you know,
everybody applauds, but in real life, I got the lowest score ever on a beam.
It was like less than one out of ten, by the way.
That's my big sports memory. Oh, wait a minute. It was like less than one out of ten by the way. That's my big
sports memory. Oh wait a minute here's another one. Okay so we had two gym
teachers Mrs. Nevet who everybody loved and Mrs. Moody who was English. This is
probably the best moment of my high school sports career. We were in PE and
it was tennis day and all of a sudden I hear
Mrs. Moody, the English one, she goes, cover your eyes girls, cover your eyes!
And a bunch of boys were streaking. Anybody remember streaking? Running
around naked? It was the thing back then. It's a federal offense now of course, but
anyway, a bunch of boys were streaking naked across the field by the tennis courts.
I don't know who these boys were. This was an all-girls school, so I suppose it was fertile
ground for teenage male streakers. So like, anyway, four boys go running by and I did,
just as Mrs. Moody instructed. I covered my eyes. But I remember I was laughing so hard that, you
know, I mean, it's not a great come from behind victory.
It's not a championship game.
This is the kind of sports memory that I have.
And the funny thing is that I consider myself athletic now.
I mean, sports and exercise are a huge part of my life and our family life is totally
sporty.
My kids are great athletes.
My husband is a sports nut.
He's always riding a bike or a surfboard or kite foiling or snowboarding or something.
And I work out literally every day and I love it.
And growing up, my dad used to bet on a lot of sports.
He had a bookie and everything and he'd throw fits about the Mets and the New York Giants
and the Knicks and I paid no attention at all except when he'd get an envelope full of cash, which was great.
That was always very exciting.
But then my kids started playing high level sports
and I started to see what it meant to them
and started to get to know the other kids
and their personalities and the stories
that came along with the game.
And I became a pretty knowledgeable basketball fan
and I fell in love with college basketball and abracadabra.
I'm a sports fan.
You know, in our current time when
everything is fragile and unsteady and so complicated
and where so many things seem like lose-lose proposition,
here are sports which, despite the dubious character
of some of the participants and the corruption of the leagues, sports always come down to a definable contest.
There's a great line in that old Walter Hill B-movie cult film, The Driver, Bruce Stern,
who's always so good.
I love Bruce Stern.
He plays this rough cop and at one point he says, you know what I do first thing every
morning?
Read the sports page.
You know why?
Best part of the newspaper.
Winners, losers, how it happened, final score.
I love that.
The clarity of that.
God, is that appealing?
No bullshit.
You can't editorialize a final score.
Winners, losers, heroes, heartbreak, elation.
What's not to love?
That's why I'm so glad that today we get to talk
to one of the greatest of all champions, Billie Jean King.
Hi, I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled
by women who are wiser than me. Okay, let me set the stage here.
In 1966, when today's guest first reached number one in the world in tennis, women couldn't
serve on juries in
any of the 50 states. They couldn't get an undergraduate degree from almost any
Ivy League college. They couldn't run the Boston Marathon. They couldn't legally
refuse sex with their husbands. Of course, there were some things they could do.
They could get fired for being pregnant. They could be denied a credit card without a male co-signer. And they could play any sport they wanted, just
none professionally, except golf. And that's in 1966, not 1866. Then along came
Billie Jean King. 39 Grand Slams, 20 Wimbledon titles, a lifetime of battling for and winning women's right
to equal pay, not just in tennis, but way, way beyond.
She founded and led the Women's Tennis Association and is the first female athlete ever to receive
the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
Not to mention over 90 million people worldwide watched the match we now call the Battle
of the Sexes. I mean seriously folks, let that sink in. Almost a quarter of Americans tuned in
to watch her beat Bobby Riggs in 1973 in three straight sets, might I add. She's a sports icon,
she's an LGBTQ plus icon, a feminist icon, and let's face it, she's just basically iconic.
It's no exaggeration to say that Billie Jean King
has changed the world.
She is arguably the most important athlete of our time.
I could not be more thrilled to talk to a woman
who is so much wiser than me,
the one and only Billie Jean King.
Hi.
Hi, after that I'm going to stop.
Don't stop, you gotta keep going. You gotta keep going. Oh that, I'm going to stop. Don't stop. You got to keep going. You
got to keep going. Oh, no. I'm not done yet. Are you kidding? Everybody says, well, now
that you're so old, you know, what are you going to do? And I said, I'm not done yet.
You haven't even started. No, because I still have a lot of energy. So, I'm going to...
Well, so, speaking of age, are you comfortable if we say you're real age? Oh, yeah. I love
it. I never... I'm 80. I just turned 80 last November, November 22nd.
But how old do you feel?
I don't know what's 80 supposed to feel like. I always ask myself, like, when I was 60, when
I was 50, when I was 40, when I was 30, when I was 20, I'm like, what am I supposed to feel? I don't
know. I am what I am. The number is there, but it's really how is my health, I think.
Danielle Pletka Right. Yeah, your health.
Elana Miller Your health and how you feel and how do you feel? How do I feel physically,
emotionally, mentally? You know, I ask myself those questions. I mean, I still do therapy every week,
psychotherapy. Danielle Pletka
Psychotherapy. Elana Miller
Oh, absolutely. Danielle Pletka
What about physical therapy? Elana Miller
I don't need physical therapy. Well, El Lana, my wife got me out during COVID to hit
tennis balls again. I hadn't for 20 years. I had a lot of knee operations and shoulder, everything.
And I said, okay, let's try it because I just love it so much. I mean, I love to hit the ball.
So we do two or three times a week now. Lana was number one in the world in doubles and she still plays a lot.
So she's younger, she's in her late 60s, so she hits the ball right to me.
It's just amazing.
I meet people that are playing and we have a 100 and under event category for people
that are 100 and under. And it is hilarious.
You know what shot they use all the time is a drop shot because you can't move and it's
hilarious.
But wait a minute, wait a minute, who's the oldest?
I don't know who the oldest one is.
I don't know.
I've got to find out.
No, I don't know.
You got to find out.
I will find out.
Somebody's got to be in their 90s, right?
Oh, for sure.
Oh, no, no.
They're just like probably 98, 99 in there. Oh, for sure. Oh, no, no. They're just like probably 98, 99 in there.
Yeah, for sure.
Hey, so what's your relationship with your body like now, Billie Jean?
I mean, has it changed as you've gotten older?
Is your brain moving faster than your body?
How does that work?
Oh, the brain definitely goes a little faster than the body now, but my brain's slower
too.
I think I've always been in tune with my body.
My brother, I just so everybody knows, a lot of people do know this, a lot of people do
not have a younger brother, he's five years, almost five years younger, four years, 11
months.
Randy Moffat, Moffat's our birth name and he played professional baseball for 12 years.
Most of those with the San Francisco Giants.
But the third word we learned was ball, you know, mommy ball, daddy ball. We
just, we are infatuated. They can roll it on the ground, they can throw it in the air,
we didn't care. And then as you get older, you start to realize it's science and art
together. And you want to be playing in front of people, you're a performer. It's so much
fun. It's very expressive. It's like, I love dance. I love ballet. I love all that. I like to.
My son Charlie is a, was a D1 athlete. He played basketball. He had a teacher when he was in sixth grade.
He had real trouble sitting still. By the way, his first word was also ball.
Uh-oh.
And, right. And so he had this teacher who was incredibly intuitive and she let him bounce a ball during
class.
Smart.
Smart, right?
Very.
So he was able to concentrate as a result.
Tracy, shout out to Tracy.
That was incredible that she let him do that.
Yeah, brilliant.
Well, that's very interesting because in school I got demoted with my grades when I did too
well in sports because I'm a girl. Demoted with grades?
Yeah, I got unsatisfactory instead of sass factory
in fourth grade, because Miss Policek said
that I had done too well in sports,
and kind of like braggio show, I guess, to her.
I didn't say anything.
I just did it.
And she said, I'm going to give you an unsatisfactory because
of that.
Now, that would never, to a boy, he would be honored and. Yeah, he would be lauded for it. And she said, I'm going to give you an unsatisfactory because of that. Now that would never to a boy, he would be honored and yeah, he would be lauded for it. Correct. That's
the difference growing up always getting negative feedback for doing what I wanted to do. But
wait, how did your parents react to that? When you got the unsatisfactory, they just
let it go. They said, just ignore it. Don't worry. Just keep going. My, my mother didn't
want me to play football and other sports because she wanted me to be a lady at all
times. And I said, Mommy, what does that mean? She said, Oh, you know. And I said, No, Mommy,
I don't know what that means. I just remember that. So when I was playing tennis, she was
happier, happier. But my dad understood totally. He was,ball is our first love. So he was a basketball player.
And he got asked back in the 40s to join the NBA and he didn't because there wasn't any money in
it at the time. And he's very risk adverse that generation with the Depression, World War II. But
no, he came home and became a firefighter, which I love that he was a firefighter.
Oh, God.
Yeah, I love that too.
I loved it, but it was very difficult when he'd go to work because I never knew if he's
going to come back.
So, he was a proper hero, right?
Well, to me he was because he believed in me as much as my brother as well.
Yeah.
I mean, he told me to go for it.
And everybody else around me was saying, huh?
They didn't really care.
But I really wanted to change the world through sports, through my sport.
I know you did.
And that's really what, you know, it's, I wanted us to be a pro sport.
We were an amateur sport.
It was so terrible.
I used to just go crazy.
Hey, listen, let me ask you something just because I'm interested about this because
you're obviously so fit and here you are 80 years old. You are.
You're right. I am fit for an 80 year old, but I don't, you know, I want.
Come on, give me a break.
Oh, I'm also lifting again. I'm also doing a lot of weight work.
This is what, okay, so that's my question. What's your exercise regime besides playing
tennis two to three times a week with Ilana? What else are you doing? Lifting weights? I've started lifting weights again. I made a
promise this year, instead of doing it sporadically, I'd be pretty consistent, which I have been.
But we're still working full-time. And work itself and traveling like we do,
I think also keeps me fit, also keeps my mind active, solving challenges, not problems. And I am so happy
I was in sports because it's made me strong. It's just helped me be strong in every way.
There's something, well, it must be like you when you're acting. I always wonder what actors
go through.
In terms of what?
Like the pressure that's on you, like they say, let's go, you know, and you have to start
the scene. And of course, if it's not live, which I'm sure you're thrilled with Seinfeld and others,
that you didn't work live because I don't know how you guys get through a scene without
cracking up at each other.
Well, sometimes we did.
But having said that, there are endorphins that are, you know, the butterflies, whatever
you want to call them, that are racing through. It's the same racing through your body when you're working.
Yes.
I mean, even now talking to you, I can feel that, you know, I want to have a good conversation
with you.
I can feel that driver, you know, that's in place.
And it can paralyze you, but it can also be a great fuel.
And I usually use it for fuel, to tell you the truth.
I'm a fuel person. I like pressure. I have a saying, pressure's a privilege.
I know. I love that saying. It is a privilege.
It is a privilege to have our opportunities for you to do what you've done and continue to do
and what I do and what I did. And you know what I don't like about getting older is people give up
on you. Oh, come on. Who's given up on you?
No, there's ageism involved.
There really is. Talk about that.
Talk about that. All right, let's take commercials
on television.
Let's just take commercials.
And not just television, obviously, it's everything now.
Yeah. I'd like people to,
when they watch commercials, to really pay attention
to who's in them.
Let's just talk about the ones athletes are in.
It's usually male athletes.
They're older, but they are the ones who get the ads.
If you'd see a woman, she's usually a lot younger, probably around 30.
They don't give us the same opportunities.
Do you know how many times they'll have a woman athlete or any woman and they'll say,
she's such a great role model for women?
Now go to a male, if a male's a role model, they don't say,
oh, he's a great role model for men. They don't say, he's a great role model.
No, they just say he's a great role model. I mean, hello. It's like, everyone can be
a role model for somebody if that's what the person likes. Like for me, Althea Gibson
was my first Shiro. And she was the first to win. And I didn't think of her that
way. I thought of her as the number one player. And if you can see it, you can be it. So I
saw her live when I was 13 and I realized how good I'd have to be. And I went, oh my
gosh, I'm going to have to be that. Oh, I'm going to have to practice so hard. Oh my God.
But you knew you were going to do it. Yeah, well, I certainly hoped to.
Of course, that was my goal since the time I was 11, to be number one in the world.
There was no question.
But still, to see Althea made a huge difference in my life in that she was number one.
And if you can see it, you can be it.
You know how good you have to be and what made her great.
I'm just so struck by the realization
that you had when you were 12.
I mean, you saw that so many people were being excluded
from tennis, and you decided to work on changing that.
No, it wasn't tennis.
It was life.
It was like watching Little Rock,
and like the Little Rock Nine are watching that black kids
couldn't go to school with the white kids.
And I asked my dad, why is that?
That's ridiculous.
He says, well, it's the South.
And because it's Southern California,
that never happened to me.
I mean, it didn't matter.
And that really bothered me.
Yeah, of course.
And you also noticed that it was like
only white people playing tennis, right?
When you went to that country club.
Yeah, absolutely.
I just, everybody wore white clothes, everybody played with white balls, and everybody
played with white. I said, that's not right. This belongs to everyone. It's such a great sport.
Although I didn't have the know-how at 12 years old that there were black people playing, but I
had never seen them. But there were. They formed their own association, the ATA in 1916.
So they had their tournaments, but they weren't allowed to play in the white tournaments.
Just like if you go to the US Open today, which a lot of people do, it's huge, it's
one of the majors.
And well, black people weren't allowed to play until 1950.
And that's when Althea was a player of the 50s.
And that's when Althea was a player of the 50s. And that's when she won everything.
And she won the US Nationals, now that it would be the US Open.
And she was the first to win.
Without her, there wouldn't have been an Arthur Atsch or a Zena Garrison or a Serena or a
Venus or all these great players.
And so I think that was a good example.
It's time for a quick break, but don't worry.
There's more with Billie Jean King in just a bit.
Support for On with Kara Swisher comes from Elf Beauty.
Elf Beauty is making beauty accessible to every eye, lip, and face, and they're democratizing
access across all pillars of business while they do it.
A big part of the E.L.F. story is that they're the only U.S. publicly traded company with
78% women and 44% diversity on their board, but they don't want to be the only one.
If you're not convinced that ethnic and gender diversity is important to your business'
success, here are some statistics for you to chew on.
From a five-year data set, S&P 500 companies with above-average gender diversity on their
boards saw a 15% return on equity and a 50% reduction in earnings risk measured by EPS
over a year.
But despite these encouraging numbers, boardrooms across America are still majority white and
majority men.
You can read all about this and more in the Not So White Paper.
It was developed by ELF in collaboration with the largest HBCU in the country,
North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University.
And it's part of ELF's Change the Board Game campaign,
where they're working to make boards and C-suite roles
actually reflect the communities they serve.
Imagine that.
And in fact, you should imagine that.
Read the report yourself at elfbeauty. And in fact, you should imagine that.
Read the report yourself at elfbeauty.com
backslash not so white paper.
VOXCREATIVE
This is advertiser content from Zelle.
When you picture an online scammer, what do you see?
For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting When you picture an online scammer, what do you see?
For the longest time we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer
with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night.
And honestly, that's not what it is anymore.
That's Ian Mitchell, a banker turned fraud fighter.
These days, online scams look more like crime syndicates than individual con artists.
And they're making bank.
Last year, scammers made off with more than $10 billion.
It's mind-blowing to see the kind of infrastructure that's been built to facilitate scamming
at scale.
There are hundreds, if not thousands, of scam centers all around the world.
These are very savvy business people.
These are organized criminal rings. And so once we understand the magnitude of this problem,
we can protect people better.
One challenge that fraud fighters like Ian face
is that scam victims sometimes feel too ashamed
to discuss what happened to them.
But Ian says one of our best defenses is simple.
We need to talk to each other.
We need to have those awkward conversations around
what do you do if you have text messages
you don't recognize?
What do you do if you start getting asked
to send information that's more sensitive?
Even my own father fell victim to a, thank goodness,
a smaller dollar scam, but he fell victim
and we have these conversations all the time.
So we are all at risk and we all need to work together to protect each other.
Learn more about how to protect yourself at vox.com slash zelle.
And when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you
know and trust.
Support for On with Kara Swisher comes from, select quote, insurance services.
Life gets busy.
There's always something we mean to do but never quite get around to, whether it's learning
another language, cleaning out the garage, or for some of us doing taxes.
But there's one to do you can only push off for so long, getting life insurance.
And with SelectQuote, they say it's not only easy but surprisingly affordable.
Now might be the best time to protect your family's financial future.
With nearly 40 years of experience, SelectQuote says they're one of America's leading insurance
brokers and have helped over 2 million customers find over $700 billion in coverage since 1985.
Even if you have pre-existing health conditions such as high blood pressure, diabetes, or
heart disease, SelectQuote says they partner with carriers that can cover these conditions
and others.
And if you don't have any major health issues, they work with carriers that can get you
same-day coverage with no medical exam required. You can get the right life
insurance for you for less at selectquote.com slash swisher. You can go to
selectquote.com slash swisher today to get started at selectquote.com slash swisher.
But what I'm so struck by is that you were so sensitive to sort of the disenfranchised at a very young age, and I'm wondering where you think, how did that happen?
Where did that sort of intuition that you had, where did that come from?
Was that the culture in your family or what?
I think my parents were good to each other, kind to each other, which I think was huge.
Just watching how they related. Not to say it was perfect or anything, God knows that,
but they get into it, but not. They're very good to each other and very kind and thought
about others. But also, you know, leaders don't choose followers. Followers choose leaders. And a lot of times in sports, you need somebody to choose a team, for instance.
And the kids always chose me to be the leader or the captain.
And I was on a bicycle committee and I was only supposed to be the secretary, but they
ended up always saying, you lead, you do this.
I go, no, no, no, you do, you do.
Wait a minute, wait a minute, bicycle committee.
Yeah, we had a bicycle committee in elementary school,
which I have no idea what it means now.
No, I think we had to keep our bikes in a certain area.
We had to take care of them.
We had to put them in these racks.
You got to just do the right thing and all that at the school,
keep them in the right place.
I love that.
So I was on that committee. But I was always
pushed into leadership positions. And finally in Tennessee, when we're older, the players said,
no, you're the one, you're the one. I go, no, no, no. Why not you? Typical girls, when they're
trying to go out to dinner, where do you want to go to eat? Oh, I don't care. What do you want?
I don't know, where do you want to go? So if there's a guy in the group, I always ask the guy, go, where do you want? And he goes,
I want to go here. We go, great. Someone made a decision. Because we're taught always to think
about somebody else. Okay. Always take care of the other. So anyway, the players pushed me.
Finally, I just remember one night just kind of daydreaming, lying down on the bed and just thinking,
you know what, I'm going to not only accept this, I'm going to thrive on it because I'm meant to.
I thought back to my epiphany as a kid, how I felt about everything. I go, what am I doing?
I'm meant to do this. And that was it. I just embraced it and absolutely decided to be the best leader I could
be. But to be a great leader to me means, for instance, it can't be a me, you have to be we,
or you can't be I, you have to be us, you know, or you have to include others in your, it's always
about what can I do to help the people have a better life? How can I make it better for all of us, but particularly them first? And that's what makes
me tick is creating opportunities for others. That's really what I love. Starting the Women's
Sports Foundation, I founded it 50 years ago. We have our 50th anniversary this year. I am so stoked.
We've given out over $100 million of just helping kids, especially girls of color.
stoked. We've given out over $100 million of just helping kids, especially girls of color.
Also, we work with the National Women's Law Center over Title IX. Those are the things that
matter to me a lot. Have you ever very deeply doubted yourself as a leader?
Oh, for sure. You always wonder, especially when you didn't make it happen. You know, if I didn't make it happen,
I go, God, where did I go wrong?
But you know what?
You're only as good as the team is.
Also, relationships are everything.
They really are.
Yeah, right.
It starts from that.
But like, when was an example where
it didn't go the way you wanted and then you had doubts?
What would be an example of that, Billie Jean?
Well, the thing I love the most probably in tennis is World Team Tennis started in 1974.
Ilana and I ended up running it over time over the last part of it.
We sold it to billionaires because we thought we really need more money in this if we're
going to do it right and they wanted it.
So we sold it to them, but they let it go eventually.
And so I was very upset with myself.
And I thought, God, if I could start over.
Of course, it's so easy in hindsight.
There wasn't the money in 74 that there is now.
Now people are investing in women's sports.
They're actually investing in it, not helping us.
They think it's a great investment now for the very first time.
Yeah, they think it's an economic opportunity, which it is, by the way.
It is, but we're over 100 years late.
I mean, it's like, it is really a lot of work and long-term investment, but it's worth it
because it gives women and girls a platform they didn't have.
And to help these kids, I keep telling them, every one of you is a leader in your town,
your state, your country, your world. You, if you decide, whatever makes you happy,
to do things. But look how much you can give back to kids coming up. But more importantly,
it's about how can we help others that don't have as much?
And women should try to make a lot of money.
I tell women to be ambitious.
We need to have more women on boards.
Yes, we do.
We need more women on boards.
We need more women positions of leadership.
We need more women, period, making decisions.
Oh, yeah.
Which, oh, God, this reminds me, by the way, I wanted to ask you about Renee Richards,
the first transgender woman to play for the WTA
back in the 70s.
Correct.
Can you tell us that story about how you convinced
the players at the WTA to allow Renee to come on board?
Can you tell us that story?
So good.
Yes.
Ilana, my wife, she's the only person ever
to play Renee as a male and Renee as a woman.
It is amazing.
Okay, that's by the way, an incredible fact.
But tell, I mean, how did you get the other women on the tour to let Renee play?
Tell that part.
Well, I went and talked to doctors.
I said, how should we perceive this?
I'm very ignorant. And they said, no, she's considered a woman. I said, how should we perceive this? I'm very ignorant. And they said, no,
she's considered a woman. I said, okay. I said, do you think she should be able to play as a woman?
And they said, yes. I called Renee, which for me is hard to call. If you know me well, I'm very
actually shy and I have a hard time calling people. So.
Pete Okay. I have, I do have a problem believing what you just said.
Donna Well, you can ask Alana. she'll tell you. I sucked it up.
Okay. And also,
it's not about me here, it's about others. I'm good when it's about the team, okay?
Yeah, I hear that. Okay.
And I called her and I said, can I listen to you and talk to you? And she's great. So we talked for
four hours. I listened to her and I went back to the women. I said, you guys, we really should let her play. I've gone to the doctor, I've done some homework. And they said, no. And I said, okay, I hear
you. And I had this thing with the women that always used to work. I finally figured it
out.
Which is?
I said, how about if we try to let her play for two weeks? I would cut the time down really
tight, short. So it's like a sample.
Yeah.
You know, and like, it won't be too much for them
psychologically, emotionally to handle. And they go, okay, we'll try that. Okay, so she comes on
the tour. And within three or four days, they come up to you, she is so nice. She is so great.
Because they were worried about the locker room. There's a lot of things that go through your mind
that we're so ignorant we don't understand. Oh, they loved her. They were fine. They were fine
after that. That was fine. Now it's very different though because there's a lot more transgender
athletes and should they be allowed to play in elite competition, some people are very
emphatic about it that they shouldn't. I'm on the side of inclusion as my first want.
And so I don't want anyone to be excluded, so we got to figure this out.
Yeah, we got to figure it out.
Because I don't want anyone not to be able to participate.
That's what kills me.
So you've spent so much of your life making the world as you'd continue to do today a
better place for everybody else.
Have you always taken care of yourself? Do you think that this is a way of putting off taking
care of yourself to a certain extent? Oh, for sure, when I was younger. But I took care of myself
when I was playing because it was part of the goal. Like eat so many calories a day, work out,
take good care of myself. I have to, it's part of my job. Like eat so many calories a day, work out, take good care of myself, that I have to,
it's part of my job.
I see.
I was very good then.
But then, you know, I have an eating disorder
and I'm a binge eater.
Every morning I wake up, I tell myself,
I have an eating disorder.
I still go to therapy, I still think about it.
It's interesting with the new injections, you know, with the
ozimbics of the world. It's very interesting because my doctor wants me to try it.
Do you want to?
I don't want to lose weight fast because I think it looks horrible. I don't think it's healthy.
I would like to lose it slowly, but the important thing my therapist asked me, which I hadn't
thought about, is that she said, has it quieted your mind?
Because I've taken a few injections now.
I went, whoa, that's interesting.
Because with an eating disorder, I have like two voices in my head sometimes that argue. And what do they say?
It's two sides. Let's say I want a quart of an ice cream. One side will say,
yeah, baby, I'm going to have that ice cream no matter what. And the other side says, no,
don't do that. It's not healthy. You know, you don't need it. You're not going to miss it.
The other side goes, screw you, I'm having this ice cream. So, I have this discussion that goes on in my head and sometimes
it's very elevated. I mean, it really elevates. And that's why I thought it was very interesting
because this is, we talk about this in eating disorders. And it was such a great question
because if it does do that...
Quiet the voices.
Quiet the voice.
If that's a part of it, now I'm on it because that would be really great because that gets
exhausting and tiring.
And I don't want to fight over these things.
It's like, God, do I have to go through this again every day?
It's not every day.
Right.
It's just different moments.
And then I say, am I under more stress?
Is that why this is happening?
No, that doesn't follow at all.
No, I've tried that.
So the point is, I still get it.
It doesn't matter.
So I got to pay attention.
That's the main thing.
When exactly did you start to sort of look after yourself?
Really?
I'd say when I was around 50.
And I was going through all my sexuality stuff like, oh my god, it was a mess.
And that, I think, caused a lot of my eating disorder as well.
So what happened at 50?
I went to Renfrew in Philadelphia back in 95-ish.
And I went to therapy.
And I lived there for six weeks.
And when you go there, you cannot communicate with the outside world,
really. And I would go to therapy three times a week. There's also couples you have to go
to, which Ilana about fainted. She goes, what? She goes, what?
Wait a minute. Renfrew is an eating disorder clinic, is it?
Yes. You go and live there.
Okay. Yeah.
And every Friday you have family.
Oh, boy.
It's rough.
And then you have every hour on the hour, you have a different like movement therapy,
sculpture therapy, everything therapy, whatever.
Did your parents come?
They finally came after I just kept pleading with them to come.
They came once.
And how did that go?
It went all right.
It went pretty good, except my dad leaned over to me and he's so cute.
He goes, Billy, you're not like these other girls here.
And I looked at him and I go, Dad, I'm exactly like these girls here.
He started laughing.
I started laughing because we always had a sense, you know, we could always laugh at
anything.
We started howling.
And I go, Dad, there's this whole big group there. What do you mean? No, because he thinks I'm at anything. We started howling. And I go, Dad. Wait.
And there's this whole big group there.
What do you mean?
No, because he thinks I'm fine.
He thinks I'm great.
And I go, Dad.
Oh.
I go, Dad, I'm just like them.
I'm struggling.
And he goes, OK, honey, I hear you.
Or sis, you'd call me.
Oh.
When things were good with sis, when it was Billie Jean, if I came through the door, I
knew I was in big trouble.
What about your mom?
What was that like to have her there?
My mother had a harder time than my dad with my being gay or trying to figure out who I
am, bisexual in the beginning.
I don't know.
But no, and I noticed you call your mother mommy.
I call my mother mommy too, and I love calling my mother mommy.
She also loved hearing it and receiving it.
Yeah, it's cozy, isn't it?
Oh, it's like a big hug.
It's just adorable.
It's like a big hug.
That's exactly right.
And my boys call me mommy and I love it.
I love mommy.
I call my mommy up to the end of her life.
Yeah, and you call your daddy daddy, right?
I call him daddy, yeah.
I call him daddy, yeah.
Obviously I'm 80, they're not alive anymore,
unfortunately, I wish they were.
They were, I got, my brother and I talk about how fortunate we were to have them.
And they never really ask us if we won.
You know, so many parents go, did you win?
Did you win?
Did you win?
I know.
They go, how'd your day go?
Of course, if I lost, I was just crazed.
I said, I lost my match.
I lost my match.
I was so bad.
My dad would go, I just have one question. Did you try your best? I said, of course I tried my match. I lost my match. I was so bad. My dad would go, I just have one question.
Did you try your best?
I said, of course I tried my best.
He goes, that's good enough.
Yeah, you're lucky.
Yeah, I am lucky.
You're very lucky.
I have to say, our son that I mentioned to you, he was a basketball player when he was
young, and if he lost a game, my husband and I would negotiate who was going to drive him
home if we were there in separate cars and she'd often work.
I love it.
That is so great.
Because he would be screaming and writhing in the back seat if they lost.
Oh, I should have been with him.
We would have had a great time.
He was hysterical.
I mean, it was so fucking bad with him in the back seat.
I'm telling you.
So how did you decide you wanted to be in entertainment?
Can I ask you this?
Yeah, you can ask me anything.
Yeah, I'd rather ask you questions, really.
I just always wanted to be an actor,
just like from my earliest memory,
I was always performing.
Yeah, you were, because your mother explained that.
You asked her how was I as a girl, remember,
in one of your interviews?
Yeah.
When you talked to her, and she said you were dialogue, you had dialogue going and you had
this going and she said you were always basically acting, but she didn't say it that way.
When we were in nursery school, they used to have nap time, you know?
And I would get, I would stand on my blanket and I would dance for people during
nap time.
Oh, that's great.
Yeah.
So you liked dancing too?
Well, I liked performing. So my nap time dance was, it seemed to be a big hit among the nursery
school students.
It would have been great. Oh my God, I remember kindergarten. That's what we're supposed to
have, these little naps. I'm like, huh? I want to go out and play.
Can I go play basketball?
Can I go play baseball, softball?
Can I go?
You know, I have to tell you,
when I was in, I didn't play much tennis
because the one thing that I get,
when I start to compete physically in a sport,
I get very anxious, it's not for me.
But I did go to a tennis camp when I was in eighth grade
or seventh grade and they gave awards out at the end and they gave me miscongeniality.
Okay, but it's like, I can just see that. But it's interesting that you feel anxious.
And when I listen to you how you feel when you perform,
is how I feel when I play tennis. I don't feel that anxiety that you feel at the tennis camp
at all. I want to be where I am. I love it. I want... In fact, I love tennis to be more boisterous.
I think it's too quiet. I think we should have names on the back of the shirt.
I think we are just so out of it.
Because you know, I keep saying, you guys,
everybody wants, I said, you're talking to 40 year olds,
you're talking to 50 year olds.
I said, what about the seven, 10 year olds?
Their concentration spans seven seconds now.
I mean, we gotta do different, we gotta do,
but I've wanted this forever for our sport, okay?
Because I grew up in the other sports, like having, hey, how about having, you know,
and Mimelun went backwards, they go, oh no, we're going to go back to all white.
What? I said, oh great. So now you turn me-
You want me to all white clothes?
Yeah, all white, all white. No, no predominantly white anymore. So,
so I turn it on and go, oh great, both people have white at each end. Okay, great, who's who? It's ridiculous. We're out to lunch.
How do you make that change? That's actually an interesting change to try to...
No, I'm just going to keep trying. Because we have the Billie Jean King Cup, which is
the World Cup of women's tennis now, and they renamed it after me, and now we're involved
in that, and we want to make that... Like the soccer World Cup, it's the World Cup of tennis and the men's, it's Davis Cup and we're working with them
and I think there's a real culture to it that we are missing out on that would be fun for the
audience because when you perform as you know, everything is about your audience and that tennis
court is our stage. When I look at a tennis court, I go, oh, that's my stage, yeah, baby,
That tennis court is our stage. When I look at a tennis court, I go, oh, that's my stage.
Yeah, baby.
Give me the ball, you know, type of feeling.
So when you walk out there, it's, you know, here's what most players think, or athletes,
they think everyone's there for them.
No, we're there for the audience.
Our job is to make the audience have a great day, a great moment.
And when they go home at night, they go, God, that was great, that was whatever.
And I wanna go back or I wanna take up this
or I wanna do that.
It's like, we are there for them.
And everybody in tennis thinks the audience
is there for them.
And I'm like, oh my God, you're so I, I, I.
It's we, them, I don't know.
That's how I think.
So can we just, let's talk about for a second, female empowerment. Have you always in your
life felt equal to men?
I've never felt equal to men.
Aha. Talk about that, Billie Jean King.
Let me correct that. I do feel equal. The world doesn't feel we're equal.
That's what it is.
The world looks at us differently.
I don't particularly look at us that much differently, just personally on a personal
level.
But every single day I have to deal with some misogyny.
If I'm around a male athlete, I'm definitely in the background.
And yet, people who are in the know sometimes will say, hey,
bud, you should move over.
You're not even close to what she's done or something
occasionally.
We're second class citizens all the time.
And pay and attention, the money we make is always less.
That's why I want women's sports to do well,
because I know the more we make,
the more people appreciate us,
the more they think about every single job though.
It's about thinking, oh,
women deserve to have the same.
Yeah, we shouldn't have to be going through this,
but how you started the program is exactly what the challenge is.
Not to be able to give a credit card when I was playing.
Also, in 1966 actually, what the challenge is. Not to be able to get a credit card when I was playing. And also,
in 1966 actually, Title IX hadn't happened. Title IX happened in 72. So I didn't get a scholarship, I didn't get paid to go to college. I worked two jobs. And nobody gave, I think it had been
reversed. Let's say I'm the one that got to go to school, to college on a scholarship,
Let's say I'm the one that got to go to college on a scholarship and the guys didn't, I guarantee everybody would be absolutely crazed that the men don't.
When the men don't get something, they go crazy.
Well, they need to do that more and more for us.
And they're listened to.
You know, it's funny, I was talking to my friend, Paul, about this just yesterday and
we were saying, you know, it's interesting how many times in conversations, just in social conversation, if a man starts speaking and holding forth, right?
Yeah, everybody shuts up.
Everyone, right, everyone shuts up and including myself, by the way, which I'm now, as I say,
that's very irritated with myself about that. But there is this sort of unspoken, well,
that makes sense that he's bloviating.
Right? That's too big a word for me. But isn't it a good, no, isn't that a good word though?
Doesn't that totally describe what it is? Yeah, it does. But here's what happens in boards.
A woman will have an idea. She comes up with it. But until the guy says exactly the same thing she
did, they go, oh,
Joe, that was a great idea, even though the woman had said it earlier. And they steal the ideas all
the time and take credit for it. I mean, and in my own life, I mean, of course there's misogyny.
Well, in entertainment, it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. And I had to struggle
Unbelievable. And I had to struggle enormously and really push back to try to get credit as producer
on various projects I've worked on.
And I got big time pushback despite the fact that I had had decades, decades of experience.
Yeah.
And you truly were the producer of the show, one of the producers, at least of the show.
Exactly.
Right. truly were the producer of the show, one of the producers, at least of the show. Exactly. And I got pushback from studios, from various other producers.
I mean, it was a, it's infuriating and it's also sometimes it's, it's just, I'm
not going to lie, it's intimidating.
Yeah, it is.
You know, cause there, there is that little voice that says, oh, really?
Should, do I not deserve this?
Am I wrong to be asking?
You know?
I hope you don't get that much anymore, that part.
No, I don't. I don't, but it has been there.
Look how much you've won. I mean, we'd say win in sports. I mean, you know,
all the Emmys and the awards and I mean,
you really have to suck it up. I suck it up all the time. I just,
cause sometimes you can't, you just have to keep quiet because you're not going to win.
You know that too.
There's certain times you go, okay, I'm going to have to let this one go.
I don't like it, but I'm going to have to let it go.
We'll get more wisdom from Billie Jean King after this super quick break.
Stay tuned. Support for this show comes from 7Rooms.
What's the recipe for taking your restaurant to the next level?
Well restaurant operators know a key part of it is making more money and making sure
it keeps coming in.
That's why you want to bring 7Rooms to the table.
7Rooms is an all-in-one CRM marketing and operations platform that helps you make more
money for your operation and more magic for your guests.
It equips your staff with the tools you need to deliver service that keeps your guests
coming back for more.
You can wow diners with a host of tools that let you create personalized experiences, organize
unforgettable events, and deepen patron loyalty.
From direct reservations to smart table management and targeted email marketing, Seven Rooms
helps you grow your brand and your covers and not your workload.
Learn more at sevenrooms.com.
Seven Rooms, make magic, make money.
Support for this episode comes from AWS.
AWS Generative AI gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and
speed of the world's most experienced cloud.
Food insecurity still affects millions of individuals around the globe.
And Nestle, a global leader in nutrition, health, and wellness, understands the importance
of working together to create lasting change. Nestle's partnerships extend beyond just
financial support. From building urban hoop houses to producing custom seasoning
for food banks, Nestle and their partners actively engage with local
communities, listening to their needs and working together to find innovative
solutions. Nestle is committed to helping support thriving, resilient
communities today and for generations to come.
Together, we can help to build stronger, healthier communities.
Learn more at nestle.com.
Okay, let's go back in time for a second for our listeners. Okay. So it's 1973, that's Roe v. Wade and the Equal Rights Amendment era.
And women are in a real fight for equality at this time.
And you, Billie Jean, you get approached by this guy Bobby Riggs, who had been a good
player back in the day, but at this point was really more of a showman, right?
And he challenges you to an internationally televised
match, the Battle of the Sexes. And this is after he'd already beaten the formidable Margaret Court.
So you had to win. And people, you really have to understand how big this was. It was huge.
And you played him and thank God, oh my God, I am so happy you won that, Billie Jean.
So am I. It was big. It was a huge turning point, really, because Title IX had just been passed the year before.
We were in our third year of women's professional tennis.
It was very crucial that I win because we had our tour, and I think if I'd lost, I don't
know if the tour would have made it or not, because it really helped enhance what we were
trying to do.
Also, men's professional tennis was young as well.
The day after that match, you couldn't get on the tennis court. That's when we had the big tennis boom.
That's just for tennis. But for society, finally in 75, we were allowed to get a credit card on
our own, whoopee. Yeah, congratulations. But what it did is it piqued the interest of people,
both genders, well, all genders we'd say now,
but then both genders, men and women.
And women, it really helped their self-confidence.
I could not believe how they changed.
They would run up to me, thanking me,
and then they go, you know what?
I've been wanting a raise for 10 years,
and I finally have the courage to ask for it."
You know, and I said, well, more importantly, did you get it?
And she said, I did get it, because girls are taught not to ask for what we want and
need.
Right.
We are taught, do not go there.
Okay?
Do not ask.
And they did.
Well, there was a cultural shift because you won.
And did you know, did you keep in mind what was sort of on the line or did you have to
sort of tuck that away and focus on the, how did that work in your head as you were actually
playing?
Well, I knew six weeks out and six weeks out, I'm a mess.
I'm thinking about all the consequences.
I'm picturing myself running every ball down.
I'm picturing myself making every shot.
I'm picturing bad calls. I picture how I'm going to react to that. I'm not going to react, I'm going to
stay, I'm going to get in the next point right away, I'm going to stay focused, I'm not going
to talk. I picture myself making every shot, running every shot down, I picture myself
getting every serve in, everything, but also responding to things that aren't great.
I also go out the day before and meet all the security guards, I meet all the administrators,
I meet everybody there.
And nothing is, this is Astrodome, nothing is worse than not, is getting lost in an arena.
I get to know everybody.
I went in the stands, I went up to the top in the cheap seats to see what it would feel like as a fan.
In other words, I totally prepare.
I'm really big on preparation.
I think process is just how you win.
You stay in the now, you stay in the present.
Well, I know when you're acting,
aren't you in the present?
Totally.
And when you don't do well, we're not.
Right, in that sense, it's like a meditation.
Correct.
Because it's just a singular focus, right?
Yes. If you talk to other people that are the best in what they do, it always comes down to
being in the present, I call it in the now.
Do you meditate, by the way?
Yeah, I do meditate, yes.
Uh-huh. Every day?
Probably, yeah, I think so. And I can meditate for 15 seconds even help.
And even in a match, if you're changing ends and you sit down, that's a great time to meditate
for 15, 20 seconds.
You get about 90 seconds.
So take a part of that and just meditate.
Just get your breathing down, just be, and yes, I can do that. But I can compartmentalize very
quickly. My brain goes very fast. I can compartmentalize really quickly, which I didn't
realize others couldn't do, which I think has been a big help to me. I also knew that if this was
going to be my life to try to make this world a better
place, that I wouldn't win as many titles.
And I was willing not to win as many titles if off the court, if it would make the world
a better place, that to me is winning more than ever winning a match against Bobby Riggs.
But by the way, you've done both.
You've made the world a better place and you've won a gazillion titles.
I'm not finished yet.
I know you're not.
Okay, I'm not saying you're done.
No, I'm kidding.
No, I'm kidding you.
So it sounds like, I mean, you are obviously an incredibly competitive person and certainly
as a tennis player, but also as a businesswoman and as a leader, you have a sense of let's
get it done.
Let's win this thing.
Am I right? Yes, you're right. And to me, what does that mean? Creating opportunities for the generation
now and the generations that will follow that gives them opportunity, it gives them hope,
it gives them, and then get scholarships, just helps them be a better player, a better
person.
Better human being.
Yeah, but because there's, you know, as an athlete,
you're done early. So what are you going to do with the rest of your life? You know, like, singers can keep singing. You can keep working in comedy forever. Forever. We know that at a very young age,
we cannot do that. Okay. So what are we going to do? So those are the kinds of things we have to
think about. Yeah, exactly. Which, by the way, leads me to this question though. So, this is from,
I have a niece who's a D3 athlete at Emory, she plays soccer.
Emory's great.
Yes, great. And I texted her, her name is Grace, and I texted her yesterday and I said,
Gracie, I'm talking to Billie Jean King tomorrow. And I said, do you have any questions? And
she said the following, to your point, she said, what advice do you have for young athletes
transitioning into the working world and leaving behind life as student athletes? Because, following to your point. She said, what advice do you have for young athletes transitioning
into the working world and leaving behind life as student athletes? Because I think
she feels sort of untethered without the sport that she's been playing her whole life.
Well, there's two things that she could think about. I can stay in soccer, but not play
soccer. There's a thousand jobs. That's another great thing. There's jobs
all around your sport if you want to stay in it. There's three things that Ed Willard and I,
you know, our mentor, Ed Willard, who's the president of DuPont and CEO and dear friend
who just passed, he and I, I said to Ed, I need three things for graduations, but I need three things I
can give them that will help them the rest of their lives.
I want to do this.
I want this to make it simple, easy.
The three things are, and they do not have to be in this order, relationships are everything.
So while Gracie's playing soccer, meet as many people as you can, get to know everyone,
really enjoy them as human beings, get to
know them because you never know.
You just don't know.
And it's fun.
I think it's fun.
And it's fun.
Well, I love people, so it works for me.
But the second one, to keep learning and to keep learning how to learn.
Like technology for my age group is rough.
Okay?
So I'm always asking an eight-year-old, come over here, help me.
Yes. And then the third one is be a problem solver and an innovator. And that means in real life
and in work or whatever you do. And those three things, I think as I go through each day,
I know I hit on those, at least one of them every day.
This is great wisdom what you're imparting. I mean, for real.
Do you think that'll help Gracie though?
That's why I did it for her.
I know.
I really appreciate it.
I'm going to tell her.
But being in a sport, she can stay in the sport
in a different capacity if she loves it,
like doesn't want to leave soccer.
But more importantly, what else does she want to do?
But those three things I think will cover just about
any direction she wants to go. Okay, so now listen, I want to do? But those three things, I think, will cover just about any direction
she wants to go.
Okay. So now listen, I want to ask you something. I'd like to know if there's something you'd
go back and tell yourself at 21.
21, let me think where I was 21. Okay, 21 is right before I went and wumbled in and
all that. I probably didn't understand enough at that time about being my authentic self. Like, who am I? I didn't know
who I was yet. And nowadays, I think that's the one great thing with today is that I think I
would have had a chance, a bigger chance, a better chance to be my authentic self being a younger
person today. Not to say it wouldn't be difficult or whatever, because
we never know. I think trans people have a really hard time today. I think the LGBT community
is having a harder time again. I don't like it. I think that we should just be kind and
good to each other as human beings first. We all bleed red. It doesn't matter what color our skin is, doesn't matter how we self-identify sexually. It doesn't matter that we just start.
I always think when I meet somebody that I think of it as a, I go blank. I try to go
blank in my head to start with a blank piece of paper in a way before I start drawing who this person is.
And that I really always want to think the best of them first.
And then if they prove differently over time, then that's a whole other discussion.
But I think it's really important to start out with just being kind and good to whoever
you meet and don't have any preconceived ideas about them.
And we're all biased.
But the important thing is to do a gut check when we are.
I always go, stop.
Start with nothing first.
Just be kind of good unless they prove to you
that they're just bad news.
They're bad news.
Is there anything before we go, is there anything that you want me to know about aging?
You know what I found? I think aging has been in some ways, the greatest in some ways is tough,
tough physically, there's no question. And also your mind, you know, mentally, whether I don't
want to get dementia, for instance, I'm scared of that because my parents had it, things like that.
dementia, for instance. I'm scared of that because my parents had it, things like that.
But I'll tell you what's really been fantastic. What? And that is emotionally, I am so happy compared to my young days. I cannot tell you. Really? But I've worked at it through therapy,
through thinking, through just going through tough times, but I just emotionally am in such a great place now.
Oh, my God.
How great is that?
I hope you are now too, but I don't know where everyone is.
Yes, I am.
No, I am.
I'm in a very, you know, touch wood.
I'm in a very good place.
It sounds like you are, yeah.
Yeah, I am.
I totally am.
But I'm so happy that you say that.
And you're not actually, you know,
because on this show, we speak to
older women about their wisdom. And that's, you're not the first person who has said that.
There is something that you're able to sort of sit comfortably in and let go of a lot at a certain
age, which is a complete blessing, right? Yes. And also when you're older, you have
perspective that you didn't have as a younger person. You have perspective. You've lived longer. Things don't bother you as much.
That's why kids love their grandparents so much. Because the grandparent goes,
yeah. And they say, oh my God, I got to tell them this, but oh my God. And then you tell them,
they go, okay. And they go, you're not upset or anything? No, are you okay? Whereas a parent, what?
It's so different.
Yeah, a lot of hand wringing.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, completely.
Yeah, they're more understanding.
It's true, it's completely true.
I can't thank you enough for talking with me today.
I really enjoyed every second of this conversation.
Yeah, me too, it's been great.
I really appreciate it.
Say hi to everybody and tell your team of people,
because everything starts with team, really.
Totally. Tell them thanks again for all everything starts with team really. Totally.
Tell them thanks again for all their help.
We really appreciate it.
And good luck in your lives.
Go for it.
Oh my God.
Billie Jean King.
That woman is just so impressive.
That human is impressive.
Oh, my mom is gonna love to hear about this one.
It's time to get her on a Zoom call.
Hi, mommy.
Hi, love.
How are you?
Good, it's rainy, rainy here.
Is it raining there?
I wish, no, it's full sun,
but we talked to Billie Jean King today.
Uh-huh. Wow.
And you would just love this woman, Billie Jean King, Mom.
It was just, she is such a positive human being.
Let's talk about the Bobby Riggs match because, you know,
you originally wanted to have this match with her.
Billie Jean King is obviously a serious professional athlete has no time for
this bullshit match with Bobby Riggs.
And then Margaret Court, who was another professional tennis player at the time,
and she did play him and she lost.
And so then when Bobby Riggs came to Billie Jean and say, now I'm
going to beat you, Billie Jean King realized what was at stake here. She knew that what
the symbolism of this match was critical and that she had to win it.
I mean, it was sort of a joke match, you know, in many ways. And then it wasn't because- Right, exactly.
She won and then it sort of humorous way,
it changed the flow of history.
Well, it did, didn't it?
I mean, she says that generally speaking,
women's self-confidence was lifted up in a way.
And it's funny because I think it really seeped into
the win, really seeped into the culture in terms of feminism and women's empowerment and sense of
self. And he was such a braggadocio and he was going to win and he was going to win and he was
going to win. And that made it even more delicious, the fact that she just played the game. And she played him and killed him in three straight sets.
And I asked her, does she feel equal to men? And she says she feels equal to men,
but that the world doesn't feel that way. What has been your experience as a woman
in a world where men are in charge?
as a woman in a world where men are in charge?
But from my generation, I would say that one thing
in the beginning, I just went along with it. I mean, it just, I accepted that.
And you know, when I went to Duke, I went as a pre-med.
Well, all I had to do in the South at that time,
in the 50s, was say I was gonna go to to med school and they'd say, well, no,
women don't go to med school. And I said, oh, okay. So, so I mean, that's,
that shows you that, that I was, whatever they said was fine.
And it's, it's only,
I said to a friend of mine one time that I think my generation was sort of,
uh, side swiped byed by feminism, the feminist movement.
In other words, it sort of happened to us. We didn't, well, people like Billie Jean King
made it happen, but most of us were sort of living with the reality of it and sort of keeping
our skills and our power to ourselves. So women with other women could be,
do all kinds of things,
but it let a man enter the room and it was
a very charged and different atmosphere.
And describe what that means,
like how is it charged and how is it different?
The women were the generators
when they were together and talking. But if a man came in,
there was a kind of a giving over. It's like, oh, well, what we have to say, what do you have to
say, what do you think? That's what's really important. And then in so many instances, even
now in a room, it'll be the men that, I mean, for a woman to be heard in a room, sometimes even, is like people sort of sit back
and, I mean, it's sort of noticed. Not so much now, maybe, because of course we've had...
Well, maybe now, mom. Maybe now. I mean, I'm certainly aware of that, you know? I'm certainly aware of the fact that if, like in a writer's room, for example,
male writers are much more comfortable taking charge
and saying what's what and speaking up
in a way that women aren't necessarily.
I mean, I realize that's a big generalization.
Of course, it's not always the case,
but it's funny how it's sort of that inequity
has tiny little roots that have filtered into the culture
in a way that is poisonous without our even realizing it.
I think that's really a wonderful way to put it.
And you know, what's interesting is that when you get older,
and I would say that there are more women now
living longer than men, and they are taking charge.
I mean, they do, they take charge,
and they don't think too much about it.
I mean, it's just like, I've sort of been waiting always,
I've always done this, or I've, it's just like, I've sort of been waiting always, I've always done this,
or I've been waiting to do this, or they it's within them as something that hasn't always
been tapped.
And they're just waiting for the guys to die and then they're gonna.
That's one way. But you know, one thing when I'm excited about you having talked to Billie Jean King is because she
truly was iconic, is iconic.
I mean, she's a figure that represents so much right turning, correct being, and she
seemed to have that like a motor in her that was just going to go.
She's got the life force in her, and I say there's a woman that has used it all of her life.
All of her life and for the greater good, by the way.
Well, thanks to her for, you know, women getting paid in athletics now.
Thanks to women getting looked up to in athletics.
Women in athletics, period.
Even you know, back in the day, the only professional sport women could play was golf. Yeah, but women in athletics period, even, you know, back in the day, the only
professional sport women could play was golf.
Yeah, right.
That was it.
You can play any sport professionally, i.e. be paid for it.
And, um, by the way, she loves that I call you mommy.
Oh, because she calls her mom or call her mother's passed away now, but she
called her mom, mommy and her dad dad daddy, just like we do.
I love that.
There's something so cozy about that, you know, that's what I said to her.
She says it's like a giant hug.
It is.
It is.
And when you hear mommy, you know, like when you hear it, I don't know what your boys call
you, but when mommy they call, they call me Mommy or Mama.
Yeah.
Right.
It's just, it's too wonderful.
It's too wonderful.
So keep it up for all, for everything.
100%, Mommy.
I always will.
All right, Mama, I'm going to say goodbye to you.
I love you.
Thank you.
I love you too, honey. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium.
Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show.
Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts.
Follow the show at Wiser Than Me on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook too.
Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonade and Media created and hosted by me,
Julia Louis-Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Jamila Zara Williams,
Alex McOwen, and Oja Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer.
Rachel Neal is VP of New Content and our SVP of Weekly Content and Production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Cramer
and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with Engineering Help from James Sparber
and our music was written by Henry Hall who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you
listen to your music.
Special thanks to Will Schlegel
and of course my mother, Judith Bowles.
Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts.
And if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up.
["Wise Old Lady"]
Support for this episode comes from AWS. AWS Generative AI gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and
speed of the world's most experienced cloud.
Autograph Collection Hotels offer over 300 independent hotels around the world, each
exactly like nothing else.
Hand selected for their inherent craft, each hotel tells its own unique story through distinctive
design and immersive experiences, from medieval falconry to volcanic wine tasting.
Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of over 30 hotel brands around the world.
Find the unforgettable at AutographCollection.com.