One Song - Blondie's "Rapture" with Fab 5 Freddy

Episode Date: May 7, 2026

Fab 5 Freddy says One Song’s fly, stems are playing, you’ll say “my my!” This week, Fab 5 Freddy returns to help Diallo and LUXXURY breakdown the first Billboard #1 song to feature rapping, Blondie’s “Rapture”.  They touch on earlier takes on the song, including an unreleased Fab 5 Freddy verse that may have influenced the song, Freddy shares his experience when he first heard the song, and he talks about how his experience appearing in and creating art for that iconic music video helped him secure his role as host of Yo! MTV Raps. Diallo & LUXXURY Patreon Songs Discussed: “Rapture” - Blondie “Yuletide Throwdown” - Blondie feat. Fab 5 Freddy “Golden Years” - David Bowie “Do That to Me One More Time” - Captain & Tenille “Do Ya Think I’m Sexy?” - Rod Stewart “They Reminisce Over You (T.R.O.Y.)” - Pete Rock & C..L. Smooth “The Hardest Part” - Blondie “Wordy Rappinghood” - Tom Tom Club “Rapper’s Delight” - Sugarhill Gang “Buffalo Gals” - Malcolm McLaren “Beat Bop” - Rammellzee vs. K-Rob One Song Spotify Playlist Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's a satisfying right here, right here. Wow. That's a legit, like heavy metal solo right now. Oh, my God. This is so special. The stems, rapture. Oh, this is special. Don't cry.

Oh, okay, I won't. I hear you choke it up. Luxury today, we're talking about a song that blends new wave, post-punk. and a little newcomer named Rap to create a sound emblematic of the downtown New York music scene of the early 1980.

That's right, Tialo. And in fact, it's the first song to feature rapping to top the Billboard charts. That's right. And we're back with the man who told us, everybody's fly. We're talking one song, and that song is Rapture by Blondie

with our special guest, Fat Five Freddy. I'm actor, writer, director, and sometimes DJ Diallo Riddle. And I'm producer, DJ, songwriter, and musicologist Luxury, a.k.a. the guy who whispers, Interpolation. And this is one song. The show where we break down the stems

and stories behind iconic songs across genres and tell you why they deserve one more listen. You will hear these songs like you've never heard them before, and you can watch one song on YouTube and Spotify. While you're there, please like and subscribe. And if you're looking for even more music facts, more conversations, and more us. These two guys,

we've got a Patreon now. Go to patreon.com slash Diallo-L-L-L-L-L-U-X-X-E. That's patreon.com, D-I-L-L-O-L-U-X-U-R-Y. In other words, our names. Do all that spelling. As we mentioned, we have a very special guest with us here today, a pioneer in graffiti who brought that art form

and many others to the mainstream, the co-producer and soundtrack co-creator and star of seminal hip-hip-hop film Wild Style, the first host of YoM-TV Raps, and now author, with his memoir, Everybody's fly. It's out now. You have to buy. You have to read it. Oh my gosh. Please welcome Fab Five Freddie in the building. Hey, hey, hey, hey. Thank you for having me. Honored to be here. Before we get to the STEM's luxury, you have an early version with none of us

you have an early version of the song that we found. Tell us more about it. Well, apparently the earliest version of Rapture was recorded slower at a slower tempo. And while we don't have the demo, Like a Christmas theme or something like that? Oh, God, that was... Well, so here's what happened to it. It wasn't... It was originally just recorded slower. And then they decided to speed it up,

but then Chris Stein went back to get the early version in order to make with this gentleman right here, but we're about to hear, friends, this is Yol Tide Throwdown based on an earlier, slower version of Rapture and featuring Favap by Freddie. Here we go. Oh, boy.

Christmas Rapperton can break their door because it's just about that time. Yeah, but this is a Christmas time. I have no fear. We'd be shocking a house, so then they're rocking it well. I mean, this blew our minds. I think we both said.

We had never heard of that before. We started to look at it. That came out on a flexi disc in England in 1982, so it was released. So it was this popular magazine, I think it was called Flexi Pop. That's the one. That would feature a flexible record.

You get a free record. It would come with the magazine. It was bound in the magazine. It was flimsy little colored thing. Well, you'd pull it out. I think it was a way. You could tear and rip it out, and you'd have a soft, flexible record that really played. And Chris was like, yes, magazine is really popular.

So it was one of those things when I did. I wish I would have put a little more effort into what I did because it was just this flexi thing, a Christmas thing. But flexi pop, a Christmas thing that they reissued several years ago. And now it's in the world forever. It's in the world forever. I think it's so dope. Who could have known that slowing it down, then going to double time at the end of the chorus? I think it's super dope.

But also what blows me away is we didn't do the lyrics together. So it's funny how I laid my lyrics down and then Debbie comes and kind of references what I said and adds in. Oh, you didn't record that at the same time. No. It was only the sunglasses that apparently made it not look like Santa Claus. I love this recording. And I like the fact that she waited after you. It's like when you hear about like, it's like when you hear about like TI recording something,

and ludicrous hears it and then he goes in and records it after. Uh-huh. Yes. No, I like that. So, but it's amazing that people love it and it pops up every holiday season and people hit me up on, hey, y'all, I'm listening. I'll go, oh, my God. And they send me images of the cover.

Throwdown. Why don't wait until Christmas to throw it out? That's a good question to us. That's one of those big surprises that happened in life. Well, we love it. Luxury, what could you do? tell us about the recording of, let's say, the canonized version of rapture. Let's talk about rapture and how it got made, and we're going to break down the stems

with the gentleman in the room who's going to talk about this. What was happening behind the scenes with these people? It's really great to have you here for this. So the recording of Auto American, this Blondie's fifth studio record. Interestingly, two things. First of all, it was originally called Coca-Cola, but they had to change the title because they were worried about being sued. Sees and desists.

But the other thing, I didn't realize until we were getting into the episode. it's recorded in Los Angeles. Yes. Rapture, the seminal New York hip-hop moment, everything we've been talking about. Yeah. It's recorded in Los Angeles. It was. It was recorded at United Western Studio on 6,000 Sunset Boulevard, right over here, now Ocean Way Studio.

And it's produced by Mike Chapman, who we're going to talk a little bit about, unsung hero of the episode. Did you meet Mike? Do you have any Mike Chapman stories? Did meet Mike once or twice back then. And I just remember Chris raved about him. He was new, the previous guy, I can't remember his name. Got to her. Richard Got to her.

Okay. I don't have to be. And the other records. But they were very pleased. And they were looking for people to improve the sound. They wanted to step up the quality of the sound. I remember Kristen them telling me they wanted to do music that more people could dance to. Oh, wow.

And then he goes off and makes his record. He joins the crew actually for their third record, which is the record where they pop up. Parallel Lines is the third record. And just a little bit more about Mike Chapman. And he, Australian gentleman who meets Nikki Chin, and we were just talking about Chapman and Chin, in the 70s, they kind of rule the charts with the glam rock movement.

They have 19 top 40 hits with the suite, Susie Quatro, mud, all these early 70s, like massive hit records are coming out of the collective efforts of Chapman and Chin. And then famously, they do a song with this unknown band or lesser-known band called Racy, which turns into a cover by Tony Basil called Mickey. Wow. So, and that recently is another third-generation hit as Apitao with Bruno Mars and Rose.

And Rose. So that's all Mike Chapman. And that brings him into the Blondie's world. And yeah, he produces parallel lines, each of the beat, their fourth record. And that's where they have their hits. This is Harda Glass era. It's one way or another. It's hanging on the telephone.

And that brings us to where we are today in 1980 to record Auto American in Los Angeles, of all places. Amazing. All right, let's get into the stems. Luxury, let's start with the drums. Let's start with Clem-Bemm-Berne-Clement-Anthony Burke. Actually, born in Clem-Anthony Bozooski, change his name to Clemberg, incredible drummer. Good job, Lynn.

Let's listen, and then we'll talk a little bit about what we're hearing in this beat. So he's just laying it down. It's four to the floor. But what happens here, there's two things. First of all, note this motif. It's just a crash on the one and the three. He does that along with the lyrics to kind of emphasize several times in the song, what's being sung, in what we're going to refer to as like the pre-chorus or the bridge section.

So that's a motif that becomes kind of a hook, kind of a like a riff that you like, you don't hum it because it's not a melody, but it's memorable and it's very iconic to the song. But the other one I want to point out is this one in the high hats. And this is really important where he starts dropping 16th notes. I'll play it and then we'll talk about it. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Right there. If you think about it, that's very similar to the rapping cadence.

Five-five, Freddy told me everybody's fly. DJ spinning, I said, my, my flashes. Once Blondie comes in, once Debbie comes in and starts rapping, a lot of the same kind of similar dropping of a 16th note starts to happen, mapping to that. Wow. And Clem, I was looking into like what he might have been inspired by. He said he was influenced by David Bowie's station to station album.

And as soon as I saw that quote, I think I knew exactly what it was. Check this out. This is Dennis Davis drumming on David Bowie's golden years from 1975. See if you hear a connection in how the hi-hats are being played. So he's playing 16th notes, but there's an emphasis. That's funky right there. It makes it almost more breakbeaty. Yeah.

So there's that drop 16th note that is another motif and becomes kind of a distinctive pattern. Because everything else he's doing is a disco beat. It just forwarded the floor and the kick and the snare. So this is where he throws a little sauce in there, a little Clemberg sauce. Yeah. And then I'll just play for you one more of these crash motifs and I'll throw in the vocal so you can kind of hear what he's doing. So you can hear the drums and the vocals kind of have this rapport. Yes.

communicating with each other. Yes, yes. A rapport. A rapturous rapport. Let's move on to the bass. What's going on with the bass in this song? All right. Well, this is Nigel Harrison on bass, British member of 90. Are you friends with Nigel? I knew all the band members at that time. I wasn't friendly with him, Clemberg, Nigel Harrison, Jimmy Destry. These guys were good. That was Blondie. Man, I'm so, again, the FOMO is just going to be like all over the room today. Well, let's listen to like basically. he's playing a two-bar loop the entire time, except for this pre-or bridge section. So we'll play you the loop. Keep in mind, it's a six-and-a-half-minute song. So he's laying this down in a pre-looping era.

Or at least they didn't, for this record, to my understanding loop. But he's just performing this sick bass line the whole time. Let's listen. There's something about it that's so perfect. It's two bars. I have done my whole musical career I've been looking for, like, the perfect loop. I just love it when there's two bars that is just infinitely gratifying like that. And I think what's happening is a little bit, there's a question mark in the first half. Because that lands on the minor third. And then the second half is the response because the, and you're back to the root. And then you're ready for the question and then the answer and the question and the answer. So it's this really gorgeous two bar cycle

for the entire time. Wow. It has that same sort of like I'm walking cadence, that so many of the classic era disco songs have. I think that's part of what makes them remind all of us of, like, New York and just walking. I mean, like, that opening scenes in Saturday Night Fever, yeah, he's walking. It's just, it feels like walking music. I don't know. The cadence of a brusque New York, Manhattan one.

I could see that. As you say it, I see them walking now. You see, you see the trash can's not getting picked up. You see the graffiti on the walls. Yes, yes. Well, let's move on to the guitar. and there's so much here we want to unpack. So there's definitely three at least guitar parts in the song,

and I'm pretty sure it's Chris Stein and Frankenfanty, the two guitar players. But I think Mike Chapman, the producer, also might be playing a role. Let's listen and break it down, and I'll tell you why I think that. So here's one of the at least three guitar parts, the whole note chords that the song begins with. And it sounds like a keyboard, but I thought that was...

It's a totally different instrument. It might be two guitars actually harmonized. I'm not exactly sure, but it's gorgeous. Okay, so it should be said at this point, as wonderful as that is. There is a quote from Mike Chapman, producer Mike Chapman, who said that the band Blondie were, quote, musically the worst band I ever worked with. So I'm not trying to throw shade here, but this is,

it must be said that part of why we think Mike Chapman is playing a role in the song. First of all, he said that they were, quote, The Blondies were tough in the studio, real tough. None of them liked each other except Chris and Debbie. And there was so much animosity. They didn't give a fuck about anything. They just wanted to have fun, didn't want to work too hard getting it. Whoa.

The only great musician among them was Frankie and Fancy, the guitar player, the third guitar player in this song. We're about to hear his part. He's an amazing guitarist. The rest of them are all over the bloody place. In defense of Blondie, never thought I'd have to say that. But in defense of Blondie, you know, in the CBGB, you know, in the CBGB, Max's Kansas City days, like, I feel like that was part of the punk aesthetic was that you weren't supposed to be too good at these instruments, right?

I mean, I wonder how much in retrospect we kind of ascribe to that. I think they were trying. Oh, no, I think there's effort. And by the way, they have the track record. Back when I thought I wanted to be in a band, I was like, I'd like to be in a band with, like Blondie. I literally thought about Blondie because I thought that their eclectic nature from tight as high to Heart of Glass to Rapture to, you know, call me. one way or not. Like, I was like, they do so many different types of music. They're incredible songwriters.

I'm sure to see them live. I would, I mean, I'd kill to go back and see him at CBGB in 75, 76. But it's funny when you read these Mike Chapman quotes, these are all from interviews on Sound on Sound magazine. And then you go back and read some of what Blondie says about him. It's like, whoa. What do they say about him? Well, Debbie says, quote, Mike is a real hot chili pepper.

Okay. And enthusiastic, he would strive for the technically impeccable take. So we would do take after take. And when you read that in a magazine, it's just sort of black and white words. Yeah. When you get kind of the like Mike Chapman, you know, what he's been saying about them. Sounds like he's a perfectionist. And they're the opposite of that.

And I like some grimy DIY. It ain't perfect, but let's go home. I like some of that. But they work together. I like some of that as well. But they worked together on these hit records over and over again. So clearly that dynamic worked. Blondie understood that they needed a little bit of that crack and the whip in the studio.

Interesting. I think you were in a group called Gray. ever so briefly, with John Michelle Boschia. Who was the third member? It was Michael Holman. From the Canal Zone days. Correct.

Pick up the book, this will all make sense, but this is artist being artists and sometimes not being the best musicians on their instrument, but trying out ideas. A big part of the punk thing was like, you didn't need to know how to play your instrument. And that was some of the things

when I'd read, some of these bands saying, that made me think I could have a conversation with these people about graffiti as art and this new kind of rap music, rapping over the beats. I think so much. So that there's the fact that

DJs were touching the vinyl. You weren't supposed to touch vinyl? You were not supposed to put your fingers anywhere near the vinyl. Your mom or your dad would be real math. Nah, people, you would get seriously disciplined for that. But that was, one again, a big innovation

that I think flashed help with need to really put your hands on a record. And it's interesting, though, because in early hip-hop and at early hip-hop parties, the feel that those records had, it was a different energy, it added sort of a patina to the music. And when hip-hop began to really get refined

the idea of sampling and Molly Marr and those guys, hearing what we'd be referred to as the popcorn on the records was like a key ingredient because when Sugarhill put out its first records, they would just have bands play note for note what was the popular thing that the DJs were playing, and it would be a little too clean. It didn't have that grit, that grime,

and people like the bomb squad later, and Molly Maugh initially knew that was an ingredient. DJ premiere. I mean, I feel like he leaves the dirt on the record. That is a connection, too, to the punk rock thing, because you want to have the aesthetic of the music, the authenticity of it is baked into how it is recorded, and ideally it's not recorded super well.

It's not pristine and high, You want to hear the chops, you want to hear the mistakes, the flubs, the not every note's being hit. That's endemic. It's part of both hip-hop and punk rock. They both share that. That's true. And also in hip-hop's pursuit, particularly in the 90s, of those original records that were sampled, also what they studied and learned about with the recording techniques, as opposed to a mic on every single instrument, multiple mics on the drums. They were making a Steely Dan record.

They were trying to go for something more. Correct. But the way I understand, a lot of those 60 soul records, it'd be one or two mics. In the room, yeah, for the whole band. And so when people are like, how do we get this? How do we recreate, like, when the Dab King, I read that they was learning. They began a pursuit of the early mics and amps with tubes. They bought all that same gear that was used in the day. All the gear that was used to really get.

It's a black white thing to do. Yeah. This is what Mark Ronson and the Dap King's all day. for the Amy Winehouse record to capture that 60s authentic feel, because the authenticity is in the songwriting, it's in the vocal, but it's also in the recording. All of those kind of signifiers equal, this is real, this is authentic. Yes, yes. And to get the quality of so much of that great music that we love, which hip hop particularly wanted to sample and extend, it was people began to understand how that process went down, which I think was fascinating, which definitely connects

to the punk aesthetic, because punk essentially was, rebelling against the way established rock had gotten to... It was all about itself and they were getting too slick and too much, too many microphones in the studio on the drums and all that stuff. They're like, let's... Seven-minute rock songs. You know? It was like...

Too much, too many long solos. Yeah, yeah. So they dialed back on a lot of that. I think that was... Blondie was blending in a bit of that. Hence the confrontations with Chapman not getting that is a... Apparently. The irony of that is that in this punk rock, hip-hop disco song, which we're in the middle

of, which is inventing this blend in real time, we do have this crazy wailing guitar solo by Frank Infancy. Let's listen to it. You almost forget that it's there until you're listening. Yes, yes. And you're like, is this a Van Halen song? What's going on? Oh, shit.

Frank and Fancy, according to Mike Chapman, the most talented member, musically speaking, he's only, it's guitars. Yes. It's satisfying right here, right here. Wow. That's a legit, like heavy metal solo right now. Oh, my God. This is so special.

The stems, rapture. Oh, this is special. It's such a joy. Don't cry. Oh, okay, I won't. I hear you choke it up. Listen, let's double back for a second to talk about how that second section that I've alluded to a few times. This song is a groove.

But it's broken up by this moment where it goes to this other place, right, where the crash goes, where we just heard the second half of that solo. I've been calling it the bridge or the pre-chorus. What's happening that's interesting, it kind of harkens back to two previous episodes of the show. We have a Phrygian moment, go back to our Nas episode, with a flat two, and I'll play that for you now, and I'll explain what that means. Here are the chords, and I'll walk you through what you're hearing. So the song is in a minor, and then when we get to the Stepping Lightly, that part,

We go into a flat two. This is our Phrygian moment. It's strange. It'll be even stranger when we get to the vocals. That's a clever little part they added to break up just the groove. We go up a half step and that's why in that moment it goes it's a little bit like whoa it's a little interesting and unusual sounding. It's funny when you just play those two parts together I feel like I'm on a Hawaiian vacation. You really need the rest of the rhythm section to make it feel like a you you know, a dirty disco song. Just those chords on their own are, it's a half step up from E minor to the F. So it's a flat second. And that's our Frigian moment.

Again, go back to our Nause episode for a deeper dive into what that means. But that's part of what's happening in this song to kind of give it a little more flavor in that moment. I want to hear the tubular bells. I think that I really enjoy the bells on this. Okay, just a heads up. In this part of the stems, there's a bunch of stuff that's baked together. So we're going to hear Jimmy Destry, literally playing actually.

actual tubular bells that were in the studio, but you're going to hear it mixed together with some percussion and as we go along some guitar and some other things. So here are the tubular bells. These are stand-up bells like giant bells, like in an orchestra. Such a big part of the record. So that's, I believe, Jimmy Destry's only contribution to this song. But what a great contribution. You know, when we were going back and listening to the... Such a great sound. When we were listening to this week, I was reminded of like always something there remind me, which is an 80s classic. Like, there's something about like those strong bells.

Yeah, those tubular bells. Yes. Yes. I love hearing that, like, just isolated like that. That's a key part of the record. Very key. Be clean. Very clean. Very Christmasy. Yeah, Christmas and you're right. Maybe that's where the Yoltide idea came. Yes. Yeah.

Do the Yuletide. Absolutely. Bro down. Yes. But by the way, who's doing like the, like it sounds like somebody's like patting on their leg or something. What was that? Well, there's class.

which, I mean, I read an interview where Clemberg, you know, took credit for having the idea to do the clapping rhythm. But it sounds like a bunch of people doing it. It might have been the whole band. Let's listen to that, though. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ha. It's got to sound that. It sounds like the handbone that the girls would play on the street. It kind of fits because, like, whether you're doing the double-dutch or,

like the handbook, like, that's the kind of street scene that just makes its way into the song. Ah. Yeah. I love that. This is so special. I wonder who's doing that in the studio. Somebody is really talented. There's even more like Latin percussion coming up here in this next section, which is very New York sounding.

It's my ears. Let's the Latin percussion sound. Whistles. The whistles? Timbales. Love that. Oh, yeah. I'm going to offer.

I think those bells are like a defining quality of the song, but the song would also just not sound quite as New York without the saxophone. The saxophone is such like a late 70s, early 80s. It reminds me of the, wasn't an accident, New York's all right. If you like saxophones. Like the 80s fell back in love with the saxophone in like a major way. Maybe it was the function of the jazz. It's so New York. Yeah, the guy in the subway playing a saxophone. Like that guy's on it. With a leg out the window on a hot New York night with a cigarette, that image. Very true. You've got the girls doing handbone.

You got the whistles from, like, Spanish Harlem. It's a very New York song. Made in L.A. Made in L.A. Let's not forget. Here's another recurring character on one song. The saxes are played by our good friend. We don't actually know him, but we talk about him a lot.

That's Tom Scott, who we've mentioned on many episodes. Yes, Tom Scott. He's on a lot of records. He's on a lot of records. He was on Steely Dan on that episode playing the Lyricon. He's also playing the Lyricon. on Billy Jean by Michael Jackson. Yes.

Captain and Teneal's do that to me one more time. He was good work. And he's playing the sex solo on Do You Think I'm Sexy by Rod Stewart. And for the purposes of hip-hop, he has a song called Today, which famously gets sampled into

they reminisce over you. He rocks. Yes, smooth. Possibly the greatest jazz sample, if you want to call it jazz, probably the greatest sample of the 90s, sort of set the 90s off. Once a year we give this gentleman

his flowers on the show, and this episode is no exception. He's playing three different lines that it's him overdubbing himself. Wow. So he's playing three sax parts. That's what you're hearing in the mix. It's two.

So great to hear all this. Two in unison and one point. This is like line of notes on steroids. Please continue. We do not take steroids. Absolutely. So he's playing two tenor sax lines in unison. So one note, the same note twice.

And then he's playing a hard. harmony. There's a third sax which is playing a fourth underneath it. So there's a harmonization underneath the lead line. So I'll play that for you in the mix. The song would not be the song without Tom Scott. It's swinging. It's that little behind the beat. Yes. Behind the beat. Oh my goodness. This is so great. Love this so much. She's breaking rapture all the way down to the smallest compound. All right. Well, listen, we're going to take a quick break. But when we get back, we'll hear the very first rap verse to top the billboard charts. And we'll hear how Fad Fy Freddy's friendship with Blondie brought that band to the Bronx and, in turn, brought rap into the

mainstream. Stick around. We'll break it down. All right, welcome back to one song. Well, it wouldn't be the rapture without a rap. But before we get to the rap, let's talk about the singing. I will admit that in the many times I've heard this song, I don't think I knew much more than rapture. Like her delivery is sort of whimsical. It's sort of like I saw one place that was described as rapturous. Like sort of intentionally sort of like more flowy than like punching out the words. Like so. Well, really that kind of floaty.

It's like a little druggie. It's like slow. There's not a lot of words. There are very few words and they're drawn out if you listen that way, which is a nice contrast to the rap section. So then it gets kind of the cadence picks up. Totally. But when she's just singing, I think I was singing like, tell us to tell.

I had no idea she was singing toe to toe. Let's hear a little bit of Miss Debbie Harry's isolated vocals. Yeah. Gorgeous. I mean, that vocal might be underrated. Listen, what a great voice. Oh, I love it so much. I mean, that's not easy to do.

When you hear Debbie Harry's isolated vocals, what does it make you think about it? No, since you know the person who's saying it. Well, you know, she's a real consummate artist. And, you know, she, not long ago, she was working with a jazz band called the Jazz Passengers. Okay. And was recording, and you could hear that jazz love

or the way she just used her vocal in a jazzy kind of way. Because she has like a smoky kind of jazzy voice when you think about it. Yes. Very smoky. Use a total instrument, really amazing just to hear it isolate like that.

This is so dope. I love it. So one thing I want to point out in the bridge melody. So that's the Phrygian part where we go up to dripping lightly, that little moment, which I broke down a moment ago and the music has this sort of, you know, jazzy moment to it. In particular, I was noticing how rapture, that half step down, gives us another allusion to another episode, go back to our Painted Black episode. It's the same

harmonic minor scale, which evokes a kind of easternness to it because you would normally have a have that be a half, normally if it were a quote-unquote regular minor scale, she would sing rapture, but she's only going a half-step rapture. And that really takes us kind of out of the Americas and kind of like maybe even out of the 20th century. That one half-note choice does a lot of work emotionally and sonically, I think, to our associations with what scale she's chosen. I don't know that she's done this consciously. I have a feeling. A lot of what she does is spontaneous and artistically improvisational and just the muse.

But that is the effect, part of what the effect that I think it has on the listener. Very cool, yeah. I definitely get what you're saying. I'll play that one part against the court so you can really hear it. He's bending her voice almost like a guitar player bending the note. It just has so much expression to it. It's like rapture. Yes, yes.

It's almost like sinister. like to use the word you use for the nonsense. I like the idea of sinister. Yeah. Yes. Yes. I think it's ironic that she sings people hypnotize and she sounds hypnotized. And when she says hypnotize, it hypnotizes the listener.

Oh, yeah. I can't look away. Yeah. So by the way, the instrumental track, when they were done, they just had an instrumental track with singing. It wasn't a rap yet. And Chapman says that when he asked Debbie what she envisioned for the rest of the song, because there was this huge four-minute long gap. She stopped singing in the second verse after like two.

after like two minutes. And then there's nothing until the very end. That was all they had when they recorded the song originally. So Mike Chapman says, when I asked her what she envisioned for the remaining two-thirds, she said, a rap. I had no idea what she was talking about. Rap was new then. Debbie played me a few references.

I said, great. It's crunch time. Go out there and rap. He said, well, and she said, well, I have to write it first. So they hadn't even written anything yet. So she and Chris went off as she says with a pen and pad. in 10 minutes they were done. Debbie Harry says there weren't any rules

to writing a rap at that point. So I just wanted to capture the feeling we experienced in the Bronx. So all the lyrics about the Bronx experience, do you want to talk about that? Yeah, so I'm in the mix with these people,

a TV party crew, I'm hanging with them, I'm telling them about this scene, how I feel it's comparable to the new wave and the punk scene and everything felt like it was some underground stuff that was cool and edgy.

And so it came to a point where I had met, in fact, when I first meet Grandmaster Flash, I meet the guy who was their manager. It was an ex-cop. His name was Ray Chandler. It was about six foot six, quite formidable a guy, and I met him. And at first, I'm telling him who I am, and he thinks this is a bunch of shit. But then when I show him some magazines and some write-ups that reference what I'm trying

to do, and so he's like, okay, what's up? So I go, listen, I want to bring these, my friends up to the Bronx to experience this. I want something that's safe and make sure. everybody's going to be cool and whatever. So there's a gig he's promoting at, well, you know, he's managing Flash and Slash promoter at a PAL. That's the police athletic league, kind of like a community gathering place in communities.

And there was one in the Bronx on 183rd in Webster. And there's a lineup of different groups performing like Cold Crush and the Mercedes ladies are performing in a fantastic romantic vibe. And I get a whole. whole group of, you know, Chris, Debbie, some other people from the TV party crew, Glenn O'Brien. How did you get up there, take the train or cabs up? We took some cabs up, and we took an OJ back. We actually two OJs, which was sort of like Uber in the hood. Yeah, no, that's good. Decent cars,

but what made OJ car service really cool was a lot of the drivers had tapes from the live parties. Oh, wow. And a lot of the clientele were young folks. or people in street corner pharmaceuticals that had the money to book a car for an extended period of time. A lot of the early raps from these parties, guys would reference getting into an OJ. And, you know, I had a OJ. Yeah, it was an OJ on whole meant you was able to have it

for one or two hours or more. Just waiting for you. Yeah, waiting for you. That was like, you were like, that was incredible. That was like rolling around with a limel. driver or something. It was a big deal. But that was the thing. So when we left, they ordered us a couple of OJs.

We went downtown. You were up there in the Bronx with Chris and Debbie, and they were witnessing their first live rap experience. Yeah, it was incredible. And when we were walking in, it was a bunch of young kids in the lobby. And this wasn't a scene where any white folks ever went. So they were like, yo, The Beatles are here.

They thought, well, the popular dance on the hip-hop scene at the time was a dance called the Patty Duke which was an older TV show that would be in reruns on local channels and I guess in the opening of the show Patty would do this kind of go-go dance some 60s up

and kids was like yo they saw Debbie's like it's like it's Patty Duke and then the movie they've seen five white people in their whole life you know the movie the jerk

had recently been out and they thought Glenn O'Brien, that's the, that's the, he's the jerk. Look, the jerks. With the white hair? Patty Duke and the jerk. Patty Duke is a jerker. They were just cracking up and snapping.

You know, they're goofy. These white people, look at that. It's Patty Duke and shit. You can hear people chuckling and laughing. Hollywood is empty tonight. They're all in the Bronx. You know? It was incredible.

That's hilarious. But I remember when I saw Debbie in a few days later and we hooked up, she was like, oh my God. The Mercedes ladies had on these cool outfits and these little Western hats. And Debbie was like, man, those girls were great. You know, the Mercedes ladies, what they had on. I was like, oh, wow. They were picking up on stuff. They were picking up on it.

And felt the energy, felt the groove, you know, and went out to work with Mike Chapman in L.A., not long after it. It's such a credit to Debbie and Chris that they were, as people, they were open-minded. They were pulling in their influences. They were true New Yorkers, like, at the crux. of all of it. Understanding that this is this hodgepodge cultural stew, all of it is beautiful and good and interesting. And let's mix it up in our music. That's so true. And they were the most prominent, biggest selling band out of that whole scene. And they so connected with what I was

trying to do. And they worked with a lot of other people on Chris's label Animal Records. He worked with a lot of really underground other acts like Walter Stedding, who was a part of the TV party, Really just interesting. And the first people to buy paintings for me in New York, as well as Jean-Michel, they bought work and hired us numerous times. There was another video song that I thought could have been a huge hit called The Hardest Part. And they rented a giant seamless room. And me, Lee, and Jean-Michel Boschiaz spray-painted this whole room. I drew some soup cans and Lee did pieces.

And it was a room with Debbie actually put on a black. She had like a wild, crazy cut-up barborella-looking kind of outfit and performed amidst all this graffiti in this giant. The hardest part. And I'm pulling through best. Shout up in glass. Oh, drive. We're going to pass. Hardest part, which I felt could have been just as big as Rapture.

But Rapture was first. I thought they could have did it, but they never released it as a single. Man, I just wish I could have been friends with y'all back then. That would have been so much frickin' fun to just hang. fine to just hang it was it was incredible now we got to talk about the rap and rapture i'm going to give credit to my uh co-host luxury he was the person to point it that's out because this is the first hip-hop song to go number one on the charts yeah and the first words wrapped are your name congratulations you are the first part of hip-hop history for that reason alone and for several other major reasons

you are the first hit rap lyric exactly let's hear the rap fad five freddie tell me Everybody's fly. DJ is spinning. I said, My, my, Flash is fast. Flash is cool. Francois, Pa. Flash ain't a dude.

How do you stop this, man? I know. How do you stop? So crazy. I have questions, okay? First of all, we do want to confirm because there's been debate online about the Flash.

I think now we are agreed that Flash is Grandmaster Flash. Oh, without question. Yeah. No, but there were people online who was like, oh, no, Flash was a downtown drug dealer who they knew. And if you order from him,

he would show up fast. Wow. Don't shoot the messenger. That's crazy. I never heard that one. You never heard that? It was out there. The other thing that's under great debate is the Francois line.

Francois-se-pa-flas-no-do. Okay. It's not quite French. It's a little bit French. It means Francois-se-pa kind of like a guy called Francois isn't great. You know, it's a little bit implying that. Okay. But then the rest of it's not quite, doesn't really mean anything.

Okay. I always took it as sort of like French gibberish to sort of sound like sort of fancy and sort of like an early 80s way. Okay. But there are people online who say, no, she was talking about Francois K. Francois Kvoikovirki and saying that his type of DJing,

which was sort of a style of disco DJing, was not that great. We like Flash. So it's like Flash is cool. Francoac Sipa. Wow. Which, you know, can we say definitively now that we know that she's not talking about France.

Freddie set the record street? I would say it's definitely about Grandmaster Flash. That's why he was fast. As I would be explaining what was going on on the early rap slash hip hop scene, him Flash being a DJ and being very fast at it, hence the name Flash. Makes so much sense. It was super significant.

And these were things that they kind of like just put into this record, which was an echoing of things that I shared, along with the everybody's fly on the early. hip-hop scene, it was fly guys and fly girls. That was slang of the scene at that time, and that's what I told them. So it really verbatim, you know, quoting me, if you will, or here's what Fab told me. You, by the way, speaking of which, by the way, I think we've also said that, like, to our knowledge, nobody was taking shots at Francois-K. So the first hip-hop, number one is not also the first disc record. So we're not saying that. Yeah, yes. Do you think

if they had recorded in New York that you would have jumped on the track? No, because I wasn't, listen, the amazing thing, and I'll definitely share with you what happened was they, so they went away, they went away, they were gone for a couple of months, making this record, it came back, I've been hanging out with them quite regularly having these sessions, them helping me advise on things that I wanted to do. I'm trying to emerge as an artist, as a cultural shaker and whatever, whatever.

And so they basically said, oh, come by the house. We've got some records we want to share with you some of the new stuff we've done. But they play me a couple of songs from the new Auto American album and I'm digging it. Then Chris says, okay, here's something different. It puts on Rapture. They're really watching me intently. Yeah. They want your approval, probably.

Well, Debbie starts off singing. I love it. And, you know, the intro to the song. And then she starts rapping. And I am shocked. I'm also flattered and kind of humbled because what I immediately think is they were just goofing around in the studio and did this track as like a little playful throwaway

just to show me that they really got it. Because Chris didn't prep me like, we're going to try this rapping thing. A rap song. I want to make sure you think this will pass muster or whatever, whatever. I listened to that. And I was just blown away that. I felt that just playfully they had did this as a throwaway,

but just to show me that they really got all this up. Because I hear my name. I hear, I'm telling him about Flash. He's the fastest. And this is cool. And then she references, have your party on TV. That's a reference to TV party and stuff like that. So I'm like, oh, that's so cool, so sweet.

And that's how I left it. That's what I literally thought was the case. Until two months later, I'm in Paris for the first time. after the second art exhibit in Milan, I'm hanging out with Chris and Tina from the Talking Heads that have a new group that they've recently launched called the TomTom Club. We leave a party together with David Byrne and the B-52s.

We're all hanging out in Paris at the same time. We're on our way to get by to you. You don't want to be there. Jesus, all this, so much fomo. Come on. It's crazy. And we're in a cab, and I'm in the cab, and we're heading to Lacupole or whatever to eat,

and this song comes on in this guy's cab. Wow. And I go, this is a fucking cab driver. Get a copy of this song. Because this is the thing I thought they did just as a goof. And Chris France says, no, Freddie, that's the new blondeie single. That's the new single. I'm like, huh?

That's how I learned that this is a real record. And then minutes later, they went on to do wordy rapping goods. With rapping in it. Sure did. Right? Words in papers, words and books, words on TV, words for books, words of comfort, words of peace, words to make The fighting sees words to tell you what. They sure did wordy rapping, which is really dope.

Those records that they put out. That first Tom Tom, it's an all-time. Insane. It's an all-time. It's an all-time. It's an all-time. It's a lot done. They hit it right.

So I was like, oh, wow, you do this. They were beginning to pop, and they were a couple with the part of the talking has band, the rhythm section, whatever. And that was just incredible. And that's how I realized this is a real record. It was shocking and surprising. And then I began to go like, wow, how is this going to work? the rap is great, but it's a little, it's kind of weird, it's different.

It's a little slightly goofy, if you will. It's not, you know, but it's remarkably, it goes on to be number one. And, you know, set the table for a lot of what would soon come. Absolutely. Because nobody knew this was a whole movement. There was a scene. People had heard the first couple of rap records that came out, including rappers delight, unless you knew, people thought this was some kind of one, two off, three off.

Kind of a photo fat. Total, they all phone and a fad. What you're underscoring, too, is like what I'm thinking about is how, like, it really ought to have been a novelty record. It should have been a Dr. Demento record. Thank you. But something about it was a little bit richer than that, like a little deeper. And it's lasted, stood the test of time. It's 45 years old. That's incredibly true.

But what helped a great deal is the gentleman I talked about earlier played the hell out of it. Frankie Crocker on WBLS, who was the arbiter. That gave it cred. Another unsung hero for this episode, no doubt. Another unsung hero, a big influence on me and my musical taste. And boom, that helped a lot. And the record connected with people across the spectrum. It wouldn't be to some years later when I was hosting YomTV raps

and the initial press on who the hell I was began to hit, this is the guy that Debbie mentioned on rap shows. So it was like an ambassador. Kind of a cultural ambassador. It was sort of like an Easter egg. or a piece to the puzzle that finally fit. Now it precedes you wherever you go on planet Earth, Five Five Freddy.

Everybody knows that lyric. But people would butcher, you know how it is with music, and I'm sure you can relate, where you're singing along with a record, and you're saying the wrong shit, totally. But you don't care. You're just singing, this is my joint. People would butcher, it would be flah, blah,

Freddie and va-va Freddy. That's the Mon-D Green. You know, it would be like, dude, it'd be like, oh, that's your idea. I could get my name all butchers. Oh, let's get started at Sacrosiliac. Oh, my God, that crazy word. Yes, yes.

In the audio version of my book, Everybody's Fly, I talked to several people that are key in my story and the storytelling. And I got to do that with Chris and Debbie from Blondie. So you hear this in the audio book. And I never knew at one point when we were talking. And I said, well, you know, tell me how the whole rapture song came together. They were laying in bed, and Chris just said, hey, Debbie, let's make a rap song and call it rapture. Literally a dad joke, literally a pun.

Literally. And Debbie says, that's a great idea. And Chris goes on to writing most of the lyrics, which surprised me because Debbie sells the song. I never checked the credits as I'm sure you guys do get all the details. But I just figured that. But then it made sense because it would be Chris that I would spend most of the time hanging with giving him all these nuances about what's going on on the rap scene, soon to be the hip-hop scene. It's funny that you bring that up because I will say that growing up, you know, in a different era of hip-hop,

I assume this was like a freestyle, you know what I mean? Like, so the idea, but, you know, once you figure out where its placement is in rap's development, you're like, no, someone definitely wrote this out. You bring up the part about Mars, which we were going to hear some more from. You had a verse about Mars that you think... One of my raps that I had with... I was born and raised on the planet Mars where I used to chill and rock with the stars. So one day I got bored and decided to split.

I came to Earth on a rocket ship. Crash landed in this park. It was a full moon out and very dark. The body was rapping upon the mic, and then I got up on the mic, and I rocked all right and blah, blah, blah, blah. So that was just a little example I'd get. Hey, here's what a rap sounds like. This is my little rap of them. Man from Oz.

It might have had a little influence on what Debbie and Chris brought to this rap. So maybe, because they were friends with yours. They probably had that rap for me. And it comes right down and it lands on the ground. And out comes a man from Mars. And you try to run, but he's got a gun. And he shoots you dead and he eats your head. And then you're in the Man from Mars.

But also, definitely I think it was a bit of an inspiration. But Chris was also into sci-fi and into B-movie, sci-fi, planet Mars, you know, Plan 9 from outer space. and stuff like that. So it was just a nice perfect gumbo, if you will. It was a nice mix of cool stuff in a unique way, as opposed to trying to be like a New York rapper. They put their own little personality and flavor into it.

And it should be said, this is before rap got so codified that, like, no, that's a Naz verse or that's a JZ verse. Like a lot of what went into Rappers Delight, for example, were little bits of pieces of raps from other rappers from before the sugar. Well, a huge part of it, the whole verse of Big Back Hank is verbatim Grand Master Kaz's lyrics. That's what he's spelling out his name. His name, right?

Hang, sing that song. Check it out. I'm the C-A-S-N, the O-V-A and the rest is F-L-Y. You see, I go by the code of the doctor of the mix. Yeah, I mean, even when he says, you know, I'm the C-A-S. He spells out, Cassanova-Fly. That was Grand Master Kaz's, you know, other rap name. I had a guess I feel about that.

When he heard that song, do the numbers in a tin. You know, Kaz has dealt with that, I think, in such an incredible way. And he's got a whole rap about that situation, which is epic and incredible. I think he's been really classy about it. It's a very unfortunate situation that he wasn't compensated. I know you guys get into the splits and all that, which is super significant. But unfortunately, that was, I think, a part of Sugar Hill's legacy is they unfortunately

didn't, they weren't as equitable as they should have been with their acts. I think they would have moved better, they could have been the biggest that ever did it. Because everybody would have fled to them, would have ran to them to put their, you know, all the rappers that would come. They would have did good business. Everybody would have essentially wanted to be their ghostwriter because they had this big platform at that time. You know, there's another little story that I just wanted to share briefly. I don't want to do soon. But Debbie Harry Blondie was pretty much a Debbie Harry Solo thing.

It got to host Saturday Night Live. And at that time, they got to pick who the support band would be, if you will. And at this time, we've been friends a good while. I explained a lot of the nuances and what was going on. But still, there was no major spotlight on this rap thing, on this early hip-hop thing. And they said, Freddie, we want to bring one of these groups on that you've been telling us about. And I was like, wow. I said, well, man, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five are incredible.

The cold crush are amazing. the fantastic romantic five, the fantastic freaks. But I said there's one group with four males and a girl out front the funky four plus one. And the girl is Shah Rock. They said, oh, wow. And so that became the first group to perform on national television. First rap. Yeah.

You're behind the scenes orchestrating this entire thing, aren't you? That's the Fab Five, Freddie. You're modest, but that's what's happening. I played my position, absolutely. But that was my intent was to, you know, and I was able to circumvent a lot of BS by connecting with people on that new wave scene that saw what was coming, believed in it, got this, these ideas that I shared, like the rebellious nature, but it was getting none of the incredible press that, you know, the sounds and melody maker and the village voice were all reporting on this incredibleness stuff. So they got that and wanted to, wanted to help make that happen. and they were able to get a hit out of it while also sharing that love

and shouting me out and talking about Flash. And so when they made the music video, I was like, listen, let's get Flash to play himself. So they had a turntable and a mixer. I said, Flash, we're going to be here. Music videos were still kind of a new thing, but I said, Flash, these guys have shouted you out. I'm tight with them.

Boom, boom, boom. Flash never shows up. So Jean-Michel Baskiat, we were all hanging out at that time. and I said, and Jean was there, as in, you know, to take part, all of the people walking around in video, most of them were our friends. I said, I'll show John how to do it, and he could stand in for Flash. So nobody had seen this DJ thing yet, really, but I'm like, John, it's simple. You just hold a mixer and do this and put your hand on the turntable

and just gesture like this a little bit. And so he was like, okay, cool. But when the camera's rolling and Debbie walks right up, that's Jean-Michel Bosca, standing there with the little pork pie hat on, and she goes to delivers the first line, but Jean forgets to do what I showed up. He's just kind of standing there. I'm just going to stand here and have a little grin on my face.

It always makes it so funny because I'm like, John, come on, you're supposed to like, but he was like, I'm not trying to play myself. I don't know what this is. I ain't seen Flash or none of these DJs cut, scratch, and mix yet. But it all worked out. Everybody has.

The number of times the commercial I have a dog with headphones on going like this. Everybody knows what DJ is. Exactly. But it was undiscovered. That is such an iconic rap video. What else can you tell us about that day? Can I ask a dumb question? It looks almost like it was shot on the streets of New York, but that's a set, right? It's a set. It's a sound stage. A modest sound stage. But they are coming out of Pravda, that bar, right, on Lafayette Street. Yeah. No, I read an interview where he, because I recognized it and it sure, because I used to live two blocks away. Okay. Yeah, that was Rudolph from Danceteria.

The Puck Building, right? You know the Puck Building? Right underneath it. Yeah. Yes, that's amazing. You know, I never went, but Rudolph, who later became quite prominent, he was the main owner of Dancateria, the very popular club. He was behind Probda. I remember hearing about it because Pravda was a Russian newspaper. The coolest underground bar. It was very, very, very cool.

Of course it was named Proudda. Yeah. The other thing is interesting about the Rapture video, which is a part of the connection that I had with them, is they commissioned myself, Lee Kignonis, and Jean-Michel. We did graffiti and spray-painted stuff all on that set. So I did a piece that said rap, which we're faking. Because we came in early. We finished, right?

We finished it. We didn't want fumes all over everywhere for everybody. Lee did a piece that said Lee. And Jean-Michel did his like kind of same-o phrases and little graffiti in and around that. But that was another little subtext. But that was the pieces of that set, that must be worth a fortune. I was going to say, do those pieces still exist? I seriously doubt it.

None of us had hit, especially Jean-Michel, who went through the roof. It's so insane what we've lost because we thought it had no value. I mean, like, that's just good point. There's so much. Literally, when I went back and watched it out, it's like, where is this Lee piece? Where is this rap piece?

Well, you know, that was a part of what I was working to do. That's a very good point that you mentioned. And that's what they were looking to do to help us and to showcase what we were doing because that's what I was looking to do. Get our work in front of people that can see it as art. And that was... And treat it seriously and just look at it seriously and open your mind as opposed to the

complete negative blowback that we got constantly without the saying, but wait a minute, that's not a bad bitch. Guy can create, a guy can paint. Maybe we should figure out a way that we can get this incredible talent that was born right here in the streets. With your awareness of punk rock and your history as an artist yourself, I can't help but ask you this. Were you thinking about even subconsciously the, and you mentioned Andy Warhol. Yeah. Malcolm McLaren and the sex piece. Was that in your mind at all? Well, interestingly, let's talk about Malcolm, very much so.

So being that I was close to the scene and meeting and reading the face and NME and sounds and stuff, I got a sense. And I would later meet Johnny Leiden and all those guys when they hit the scene. We would all intersect. And they basically had a very, like, disgruntled kind of vibe towards Malcolm because they basically were like, he was a slick businessman guy that was able to get. he controlled, got the money, essentially. And so they were pissed.

When he did come to town to tap into what was going on with hip hop, it was Lady Blue who organized the Roxy and managed the Roxetti crew to help really blow the scene up. She wanted me to connect with him. And I just took a pass on that from what I had learned and knew from guys in the class because I was just like, you know, I'm going to step back from that one. But it was Michael Holman that did take him up to the Bronx, took him to Bronx River, kind of gave him a close-up look. And what he did was remarkable.

In fact, he brought all the elements together with a good record, Buffalo Gowls and the other records in a remarkable way. I like dancing like a hobo. I like all those. Those are some cool songs. Amazing. And to tap into the Supreme Team, which had one of the two or three very obscure. rap radio station shows at that time. I think they came on something like on a Tuesday at two in the morning or something.

You'd be up with a fresh tape in the box ready to record because the Supreme Team was the best later. There would be Mr. Magic on New York Radio that would open it up. And then he would be on this WHBI station, which was similar to public access. You got a slot and you paid a few dollars to have it. But then it would go to BLS and then 987 Kiss. But Malcolm McLaren captured the essence of the Supreme Team. These two guys, they were

five percenters, which is a black Muslim offshoot. They had a lot of flavor. They would play break beats. They were super cool. You can go on YouTube and hear some of their episodes and stuff. And Malcolm made this really good record ahead of the curb of people being able to really

create something that was a unified version of what this hip-hop thing is all about. So it was brilliant the way he can do that and he did and then went on to do like an opera record. It was like Madam Butterfly. And he did the first version of Vogue before Madonna did it, right down to the same type of, same black and white video aesthetic. He tapped into that scene. So he was really good at seeing subcultures and showcasing them in pretty effective ways that were true to the roots, tap into the core

individuals. And it's not to compare you to him at all, but certainly like you, Andy Warholme, Malcolm McLaren, what you share is a sort of cultural orchestrator role, you know, executed very differently and with different perhaps, you know, ethical standards, I think higher ones in your case than in Malcolm's case, culture vulture, with great output, like a really, he's a mixed bag of of a figure in music history. But I'm a huge bow-wow-wow fan. I'll go to the mat for bow-wow-wow, you know, sex pistols. He managed the New York Dolls for a minute.

You know, the man's very important in music history. He was brilliant, essentially. But you, I think the three of you, I think the three of you, I think the. you have operated in a similar way as a high-level cultural orchestrator, as a connector of scenes and music and style and art. So it's really interesting to think about your role in a similar way. Thank you so much. Yeah. It things fell in place in ways that obviously some things were specifically designed and intent, but when you put yourself, which I found over the years, and I talk about in my book, a lot of amazing things came my way that weren't

on my agenda, but I had to suss it out and really think deeply. Am I going to take this move? Like, getting to host the first rap show on MTV, a lot of... Full circle. MTV puts the rapture on. It's like their first time they're showing a rap video. And then you come full circle, and you're hosting MTV's rap show. The producers that were on staff at MTV, one of them, Peter Doherty and also Ted Demi, both are sadly no longer with us. They were campaigning and they were like, he's the guy, because Peter was on the downtown scene

and knew all the moves I was making, who I was moving, where we were intersecting on that scene. He was like, and he's the guy that's in the rapture video. He's right there, which was one of the first videos MTV had to place. And they were like, hmm, let's try this out. And the ratings were through the roof. They thought the Nielsen machine had broken or been hacked or somebody. They'd been paid. Yeah, no.

Correct. And it all worked beyond expectations. So those things happened and framed up and helped shape up and extend on the platform that I was trying to build. I just was trying to present this in a way that people can see us in a much better light, understand us as creatives, which not just myself, but when I got in, I opened the door and held the door open. And Jean-Michel and I would talk about it can't just be me and him. Let's bring in other people. And that was like crash in days and Futura and Ram LZ,

the cats that we felt were creative, unique individuals that can help, you know, do their own thing in this new space. If you want to hear something that you may not have been exposed to, that really, I think, it helps encapsulate that period in time. After you listen to Rapture by Blondie, go back and listen to Beat Bop. Yeah. By Ram LZ. Right things all soon you'll see.

Life ain't a more joke. It's a serious thing. When you're dealing with the answer that we can't explain. Yeah, Ramo Z and K Rob. And of course, I turned Jean-Michel on the hip-hop. When we first meet, I have tapes. When I meet all these people, even for Chris and Debbie, I had live tapes from Bronx gigs of Cold Crush, of Fantastic.

So these are how this all spread through the city. And that's why most people that was with this had a boom box with a double cassette player. Yes. So you can bust off a 90-minute copy for your homie because it was... Might be fifth generation by that point, but it's... Definitely fifth generation. I give you more grit, authentic grit, then that fifth generation.

Authentic grit baked in. And that was how it all spread and got around. And so I turned Jean-Michel and, yo, there's this new thing going on. Tate's like, wow, he's loving it. Then he was like, wait, I can do this too. Took Ram, LZ and K Rob into the studio and made that beat. And that's interesting, too, because that's the four rap was structural. structured and guys would have records where they rap for 15, 20 minutes.

It just gone on. People were like, you can't put rap on a record because how would that even sound? These guys are on the mic all night. So what would even be? But to your credit on another level, you went to MellyMell in 1979, I think it was. And you were like, hey, man, he needed to make a rap record. He's like, what are you talking about? Are you crazy?

You never think of making record? He looked at me. He looked at me. He's like, who would buy it? These guys are not thinking like that at that time. They were not thinking like that. Soon after, they would be. shown the light. And once again, this was something that Sylvia and Sugarhill Records saw,

like they had a sense, but they just saw how big it was in the communities, in the urban communities in New York City. It was like a no-brainer. Enjoy the label, a local label called Enjoy. I know Enjoy. I see that label. They put out super rapping and a few other records, I think maybe Spoonie Gee's record, who was this super cool solo rapper before we had Big Daddy Kane and Rock Kim and everything. This cat was like that he was, I guess what Sugar Hill was able to do was to push it out nationally and get it played outside of the New York area. And people loved it. And as they say, the rest of kind of its history.

Luxury, now that we've learned so much about the song, can you tell us how the splits breakdown? Well, listen, there's a couple of different numbers out there. So just to be clear, splits are often in contention. And what's publicly available is not necessarily where things will go or the end of the story. But the credits on the record say that it's 50-50 Chris Stein and Debbie Harry, but I did find one claim somewhere in PRS specifically for people, for the deeper, deeper credit nerds out there. In PRS, it does, there's a third that has been claimed, I believe, by the estate of Clemberg. So it's interesting to kind of note having listened to his hi-hat pattern, maybe recognizing

that it had a say in what the rapping cadence may have turned out to be. I'm not sure what's going on with this, but there is a possibility that Clem Burke, or has a state, I should say, since he passed recently, might be cut into the songwriting, publishing credits on the song. But to be clear, it's clearly, it's unsettled business right now. Well, Freddie, we've talked a lot about this song. We want to talk about the legacy of this song. Let's start there. What do you think the legacy of Rapture is? It's an important piece in introducing and setting the table, I feel. Many people that heard RAPTure, some of the earliest rap records that did break out of New York,

beyond the fact that people thought novelty at first or just whatever, this is some kind of weird kind of thing. It set the table. I guess, you know, Wow Style, the film that I was a big part of, didn't have a national release, but it showed that was the first showing that this is a scene. This is a culture developing in urban areas in New York City. And if you then listen to the rapture, wait, rapture, they were rapping. Oh, and these guys were doing graffiti in the background.

It helped set the table for what would come. In fact, once again, when Peter Dardy and Ted Demi were lobbying the execs at MTV to put a rap show on, They were like, look, this is a part of the story, along with the fact that Run DMC, LL Koujee, early Houdini, these records were going gold with little to no marketing at all. So they were like, look what we have here. And here's this channel, which is looking at music videos, and that was one of the first videos, music videos MTV played. So as time progressed, and people understood more of the story from connecting the dots from other things that happened, even like I got well aware. People didn't know who the hell of Fab Five Freddy was or what that was. But when YomTV Raps happened and became this big, highly rated show on the channel, the press that we would get would reference, this is who this guy is.

And then they go, wow. So a piece came together and people got the complete picture. and then the fact that they weren't a band that was just trying to rip the culture off. No, it doesn't come across that way. They shared love and shouted people out and did it in a sincere kind of way that added to, I think, a big part of what hip hop has been about, like exchange and interchange. And I looked at the relationship that I developed with them as a cultural.

I'm sharing this new things. And I told him I was a big fan of Andy. well, the first time I met Andy officially, Andy Warhol, was hanging out with Christian Debbie. I want to bring this up because this is sort of what has not been stated explicitly, but it is all through your book. Everybody's Fly. Go check it out.

It's just that you saw art and you heard music. You saw dancing. You saw culture, you know, and I love in your book when you talk about, like, it was every bit a school of, as much as impressionism and Dadaism and all that stuff. I wanted to make those connections to show people that it connected like those movements did. I felt strong. It was a full picture.

And that leads me to a question that's part legacy, but also the part where goes hip hop from here? Because I think that a lot of our frustration, and this is, I think, across generations, I think a lot of our frustration is that maybe because the internet gives us access to so much immediately that it's hard to find underground culture now and truly get excited because it's almost like you know, where do you go? Like it used to be like that late night radio show that came on at two in the morning that was an early adopter or you know, maybe it was that, you know, pirate radio station if you're in the UK. Like, yes, yes. Why do you think it's so hard

for us to find new culture for all of us to get excited about it? Just is it because we're so dispersed with our different ways in. I don't want to answer this question for you. No. But I feel like you must have an opinion. Well, I think that's a part and parcel of the problem is we have immediate access to a million songs, let's just say, in the devices in our pockets. And I think it's do we or don't we post what we're doing immediately online for the world

to kind of see and share. I think sometimes being able to hold back is important in the creative process, comparing it to what came before. Hip-hop had a good 10, 15 years to develop, for its roots to go deep before it got exposed on your MTV raps and in other states and other countries around the world jumped on board. I think that's one part of the issue. But I think I feel definitely there's interesting things going on. I think one of the problems happens when these things get exposed maybe too early. And then the people rush in and get all over it and pick it dry. And the artist themselves may not understand initially how it's good to hold back a bit

until you've really developed something or you've really, you know, I'm sure you've heard stories about different acts that didn't hit on the first album. And record companies were invested in developing an act, getting all aspects together, believing in you over the long run and building you up to a certain point. So I don't quite have all the answers, but I do know that there are interesting things going on. When I meet people doing interesting things musically or what happened, I'm like, please, hit me with some links so I can see what you're doing, what you're listening to, because this is a zillion songs out there. Who's going to be that kind of filter

arbitrate. You know what I'm talking about. I think it's me in luxury. I think that's we will gladly take on that role. You guys are doing a really good job. And the way you dissect music is so informative and you learn so much what the blue notes are

and all these kind of things that I'm like you've heard and felt, but I didn't really know the definitive way to do it. So, I mean, there's good things about where we are And there are certainly problematic things, I think, you know, how you hold back on once again exposing it all too soon online, but also knowing where to dig down deep and find that interesting, those interesting little kernels of things that are happening. It's a search that we must do. Let me ask a question just as a fan of yours from your MTV Raps.

Sure. Was there ever a song or an artist that you pushed your MTV Raps to play where they're like, no, we can't do that. Oh, no, that never happened. Really? We had control over Yorm TV wraps. In fact, with Ted and Peter stepped back after a while, and it was pretty much Ted Demi that ran things. And Ted had a really good taste, but they would run everything by me. Like when a new act came through, they wanted to make sure that we were all in sync on it.

It wasn't from top down, hey guys, whatever, whatever. Because there were things. Play these 10 videos. Yeah, no, hell, no. They trusted us to go out and do it. and find the acts and, you know, what are we going to showcase on the show? And we were aware we were looking to showcase. We knew it had, obviously, it had all been born, bread, and hollered green fed in New York.

But we were like, well, we got to represent the rest of the country now, because we've hearing that there's this guy in Miami who was at the time Luke Skywalker and two-lawed crew. And Philly, I've always looked at. Also, very not worried about a cease and desist letter. He definitely wasn't. But the first time we traveled, the big joy for hosting your MTV Raps

was getting to travel to these other places to showcase. And so we immediately were like, well, when Peter said, man, how would you want to do this show? I said, man, I just don't want to be cooped up in the studio with the green screen and goofy shit going on like all the other VJs did. I said, man, that's whack.

I said, I'd be more comfortable in the street if cast is in their basement putting beats together. I want to talk to them there and feel that. energy and they said, let's do that. So that's what we did, because I was just as curious to understand what was going on in Houston's fifth ward with the ghetto boys or when we did NWA's first time on TV is we began at the Welcome to Compton sign. And then we rented a flat bed truck that we can drive around and people can see L.A., see South Central. So the desire to do that

and the filmmaker in me wanting to show some good images was what we were. got to do and it worked remarkably well. The problem developed a few years in when they got hip. Like for instance, you have a company like Guess who's spending money to advertise on YomTV Raps, and then you have numerous people in numerous videos wearing Fubu shirts, and then them learning that, oh, this is a brand, and they're getting free advertising worn by the groups. And guests is like, what the hell? Like, we're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars, and these guys are just, so that became a problem with videos. Wow. That's why they started blurring them out to please the paying sponsors.

Well, yeah, because you got guys paying, and then you got groups wearing like, All-Hilfitt. Magic City. If that was like a hot brand, they'd be like, well, this guy's got the Magic City on, and we've got to pay for ad space. So that became a problematic. But the Labels took their time to blur these things out. And other video shows developed, like BET finally developed their rap show. Yeah. And they didn't have those same issues. They let the guys wear whatever.

Rap City was a whole other story. It was a whole other story eventually when that jumped off. But it was good. Initially, we had free reign and we broke many acts. And we loved it, we're playing it. And it would go quick. We'd hear stories about the record sales going crazy. crazy the week after the show here.

It was just such a cool thing to help people out. That was a good time. And to give them some, you know, showcase them on TV. I would pull groups to the side. They'd be so nervous. Oh my God, I got this mic in my hand. I'll walk him over and just, yo, dude, this is all good. You know, Cass would be stuttering and nervous.

I said, look, man, we'll do this again. If you screw up, I'll sometimes say something that's overly ebonic. My producers would be like, fab, you just said da-da-da-da-da. I'd be like, what? I said dad. Definitely, we're going to reshoot this shit. It's some evonic bananas craziness. But it was fun.

It was amazing to see that happen and to be a big spark in the game. I love that. Well, Fadaphy, Freddie, thank you so much for coming on our little show. It's such an honor to have you here. Can I just say that the first time I went to CBGB's exploring this whole new wave punk scene and that was the venue, the first band I saw perform with a cramps. And I love them. I wear my cramps shirt for all your audio-only listeners.

And it's funny that your name is Lux. Yeah, Lux Interior. Lux Interior was the lead of the cramps and his girl, their Ivy. Boys and Ivy. Yep. Boys and Ivy. They were incredible. And he scared the shit out of me.

And the fact that. I'll bet it at the time before they became known, right? What would it have been like to see them in 19-1 or 79? It was like scary. They were like incredible in the vibe. Right. Reuters from the black leather lagoon. just the austere gritty griminess of CBGBs

and this man I'm like oh it's just kind of band really kind of scare you a bit because they're doing this horror kind of gothic swamp rock. Rockabilly swamp rock I like that and they went intense. You fight the crowd sometimes? No, so the other band,

the band that had opened for them was James White. And the blacks. Oh. Well, that became James White and the blacks but his initial band was the contortions. The contortions, right. And so the contortions were the contortions. Because were the support band that night of CBGBs.

What James White would do famously was start a fight or punch people down front. And he'd like, just get out. You'd be trunk back because he might slap somebody and whatever. That was like a part of the act, which was crazy. You get back on stage bleeding. Listen, there was a band, these tough white dudes from Brooklyn called Straight Edge. There was some real rumblers. And unfortunately, the guy that James White thought he could hit was one of these dudes.

the shit out of him. Oh, man. And he gets back up on stage of CBG. He's blood flowing out his nose. Finish the whole set. Oh, man. I would have loved to have seen that. It's crazy shit ever.

Like, this dude is bleeding. He grabbed me singing and the blood is everywhere. I'm like, this shit is wild. And then the cramps come on. It was an scene. Oh, man. The cramps are one of my favorite bands. I used to see them play in San Francisco every Halloween

because that was there, like, they would make the rounds when I was a teenager growing up. That's amazing. I'm a huge fan of that. I love that you love them. Did you ever see the footage when they? when they played at a mental institution. No. Sounds horrifying.

I think that's on YouTube. I think I know you're talking about. It's on YouTube. It is genius and insane. Like literally these people in the crowd and the group performing. Somebody told me you people are crazy, but I'm not so sure about that. You seem to be all right.

It was a moment. They had their own thing, yeah. And at the time, I'm sure you didn't know if there was a wink or not. You're like, are these guys scary? Yeah. Are they cartoon characters? Are they the real deal? Yes, it was a nice mix. Did you meet them? Did you ever talk to them? I met, I met Lux once. We just spoke briefly, I think at Bleakabob's in fact, which was a liquor box. Record store where I brought my first punk records. Right off an eighth.

Right off an eighth on Bleak Street. And he was a really rude guy. It was like a soup Nazi of the record store game. He's the, he's the archetype for the rude guy who works at the record store. Basically. He's that guy. And Lux was in there one day, and I was like, oh, wow, Lux's high. He was like, hey. But that was intense. But I wouldn't give to have, like, gone through to have experienced what you experienced. And it's all in your book, which is called Everybody's Fly. Out now. Where can people get or find out about your new book that? Oh, it's available everywhere. Find books or sold. And as well as the Audible and Spotify for the audio version, which is a lot of special treats. And some interviews. Yeah, so you could turn them pages.

There's a great photo insert. I worked really hard to get with photographers from back then to dig into their crates to find really never before published photos of myself, Jean-Michel. A lot of stuff I pulled there. Even though the photos are not that big, they're the real deal in terms of how it looked back then and some of the key players who shot with me, Keith Haring and JFK Jr. That I got out of the Keith's archive out of his estate, showed me stuff.

So it was really fun to put it together to share all these stories. Congratulations. I'm finishing it, getting it out there and going on tour. I'll say it's such a good read. It's such a fun read. I put up there with some of the best, you know, music bios I've ever read. Thank you so much. It really means a lot to have it to sharing.

And feedback I'm getting as good. Out here in L.A., we had a big book event at the Lodged Room last night. And Roger Gwynveh Smith, the incredible actor, did a talk with me. He's a good friend. and a lot of my old school L.A. friends from Delicious Vinyl, which I talk all about the guys that started that label, which was the big rap label out here before Rufeless. Those guys were my buddies, and I talk about meeting them,

and they all came out last night, so it's really fun. Well, thank you for coming on the show today. Thanks for having me, man. As always, you can find us on Instagram and TikTok. You can find me on Instagram at Diallo, D-I-A-L-L-O, and on TikTok at Vial-R-R-R-L. And you can find me on Instagram at L-U-X-X-U-R-Y. and on TikTok at LuxuryXX.

And you can follow our podcast on Instagram and TikTok at One Song Podcast for exclusive content. You can also watch full episodes of One Song on YouTube. Just search for One Song podcast. We'd love it if you like and subscribe. Also be sure to check out the One Song Spotify playlist for all the songs we discuss in these episodes. You can find the link in our episode description. And if you've made it this far, you're officially a part of the One Song Nation. Show us some love.

Give us five stars. Leave a review and send this episode to a festival. Hello music fan. It really helps keep the show rhyming. And by the way, if you're looking for even more music facts, more conversations between Diallo and luxury and basically more of us. We've got a Patreon now. You can find us at patreon.com slash Diallo Luxury. That's right. Diallo luxury. Luxury, help me in this thing. I'm producer, DJ, songwriter, musicologist, and every Friday night from 10 till midnight KCRW DJ, luxury. And I'm actor, writer, director, and sometimes DJ Diallo Riddle.

And this is one song. We'll see you next time. This episode is produced by Casey Simonson, mixing and engineering by Eric Hicks.