One Song - Janet Jackson's 'Control' album (w. special guest Jimmy Jam) - Pt. 1

Episode Date: October 26, 2023

Legendary producer Jimmy Jam joins Diallo Riddle and LUXXURY to break down the making of Janet Jackson’s classic album, “Control”. Jimmy takes us inside the studio and breaks down the process of getting to know Ms. Jackson (if you’re nasty) and creating a sound and attitude that worked for her. This is the first of a two-part special with Jimmy Jam.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, today on one song, I am so excited because we've got the legendary producer and songwriter Jimmy Jam in the studio with us. Yes. Can we hear it for Jimmy? Wow. Standing ovation. I love it. Awesome. Before we get going, let me be clear, there's a lot we're not going to talk about in this episode.

For example, we are not going to get into this man's 16 Billboard Hot 100 number one records. That's right, luxury. And you know what else we're not going to talk about? We're not going to talk about Jimmy Jam and his, is right. writing partner, Terry Lewis, how they won five Grammys. We're not going to talk about Jimmy's 11 nominations for producer of the year. And we're definitely not going to talk about how he and Terry wrote that one human league song that every black kid loved.

Well, then I can go then. I'm just saying human by human league. No, no, whatever. There's all this stuff we're not going to talk about. Thank you. Yeah, that was okay. We looked up on a few here. But we're not talking about that today.

Oh, man. Oh, man. No, serious. But here's what we are going to talk about. We are going to talk about a seminal classic. iconic genre-defining album, a work of art that created a legend and cemented Jimmy and Terry's place in the pantheon of music producers. It's an album that not only defined careers, but made Janet Jackson a superstar,

and it also changed the course, we would say, of R&B and pop music. It went five times platinum, sold over 10 million copies, and it's frequently listed as one of the greatest albums of all time. Yes, that's right. Today on One Song, we're honored to welcome to the studio to talk about the making of the the album control, Mr. Jimmy Jam. Wow, that was great. First off, I want to say thank you for coming to the show with us today.

You know, like, people listening to this won't know this, but I am not even dressed the way I usually dress for the show. Usually I'm in a hoodie, you know, like maybe a skull cat. But today, like, I just, I feel like you can't talk to somebody with your resume and not be cool. Okay, I love it. I love it. Perfect. And, you know, I just had to get a little fancy because Jimmy Jam, you are a hero for so much.

much of us. Thank you, man. I appreciate that. Now, if it wasn't clear from that intro, usually had one song, we go deep inside one song, which is what the show is called one song. Makes sense. But today we're going to be doing an entire album, one album, if you will, and that's the control album from 1986, the Janet Jackson, the one that launched her as a global mega-superstar, and in many ways launched your careers as mega-superstars as well. So I want to start by asking you this. How did it come to pass that you started working with Janet Jackson? So Janet was a huge fan of the time. My band, or not my band, but the band I was in.

And she came to a show with her mom, was sitting in the front row. I think it was at Long Beach Arena, if I'm not mistaken, because Prince didn't let us play the forum and, like Madison's score. He didn't let us play the big places. Why didn't he let you play the big places? Well, back in those days, before the Internet kids, there was newspapers.

And after you did a show, the next day in the news, there would be reviews, concert reviews. And a lot of the concert reviews from around the country basically said, yeah, Prince was cool, but the time. Oh, my God. Well, that's okay in Charlotte, North Carolina, or, you know, Podunk, Iowa, or I don't even know what the Pohunk, Iowa is, but I always say that. But it's okay to say that in that newspaper, right, because nobody's going to see it. But if that happens in a newspaper in New York or in L.A.,

Major market. It's major market and it spreads everywhere, right? So he didn't want to be on the same show with us in New York or L.A. So Long Beach was okay. Yeah. So it was Long Beach Arena. And we did the show and I remember Janet sitting in the front row and afterwards she came back stage and we got a chance to meet her. And then about probably a couple, maybe. And had she come out with an album at that point?

She had, yes. No, no. It actually. Janet Jackson. Yeah, it actually hadn't come out yet because what I remember was going to the studio with her, not to work with her,

but actually Leon Silver's was working on that album. The icon himself, yeah. The icon, totally. And so Leon let us come to the studio to watch him record. And they were working on, I can't remember, it was one of the Janet songs, I just can't remember which one it was. But she's like 14 or something at this point, right? Yeah, she's like really young.

And we go to the studio, and so we're just kind of watching it happen and stuff. and we loved her. I mean, we thought her voice was amazing. We thought everything about her was real cool. What we noticed was that kind of the attitude, he always had this really feisty attitude, like when she was young.

And that was the thing we were not hearing. You weren't hearing that in the music. So Leon was friends with John McLean, and John McLean was the ANR person at A&M Records. Right. And John had called us and said, actually a different female artist on A&M records. Actually, now I can say who it is.

It's Sharon Bryant from Atlantic Star. Was going to do a solo album. And he said, you guys want to produce the album? We said, yeah, we love Sharon Bryant. That'd be great. So Sharon apparently didn't want us to do the record. She wanted to work with somebody else. So John was kind of embarrassed, and he said,

I'm really embarrassed. He said, is there somebody else on the roster you'd like to work with? And we said, send us the roster. So he faxed us the roster. Because once again, you know, just had to remind people before the internet and all that stuff. So he faxes the roster. Terry and I look at the roster, our name stops on Janet.

We said, let's do Janet. So we called John, we said, we want to do Janet. He says, you want to do a couple songs? We said, no, we want to do the whole album. He said, you do? And we said, yeah. He said, okay, cool. So anyway, we have a meeting with her dad, her, bunch of other people.

And I remember they played her, Patty Austin, the Heat of Heat, which was the record we just done. One of my favorite. The heat of it. The heat gets so hot. Hot. So, and Janet said, oh, I'm not sure whether I really want my record to sound like that. And we were like, no, no, no, no, Janet, that was for Quincy.

That was strings and live drums and like, oh yeah, no, that was our Quincy impression. I said, your thing's going to be totally different. It's going to be your own sound. It's going to be your own thing. So she said, okay, cool. As we were walking out, her dad goes, you guys are from Minneapolis. We said, yeah. He said, Prince is from Minneapolis.

We said, yeah, he said. don't have my daughter sounded like prince okay mr jackson you got it you got it um but our thing was come to minneapolis no bodyguards no you know extra people no management none of that bring bring like a friend with you she came by herself she came by

she came with a girl named Melanie a friend of hers named Melanie and they came up I remember they got to the hotel they had to figure out the map to get to the studio it was about teenagers four miles away yeah she was like 17 18 years old yeah Driving around Minnesota. In a strange city.

Well, but the metaphor for it was perfect because she was somebody that was striking out on her own. You know, she was talking about independence, about moving away from her parents' house and the whole thing. She had just left the Joe Jackson management, like dad, right? That must have been a big deal. Yeah. So the experience of that actually was, you know, even going into clubs and just hanging out with her. It was all these new things. It was like, you know, hey, I want to rent a video.

Okay, well, Blockbuster's down there. Or like literally... So she seems sort of sheltered? Is that the right word? Well, you just, you always had people to do things for you. You know, you kind of grow up insulated from a lot of things. And so you have people that, you know, hey, I need something. Well, they'll go get it or they'll go do it or that, whatever.

It's funny because one of the things I remember, there were these guys at a club that were messing with her. And so we were watching it happened. But we just, you know, they were like, those guys are messing with Janet. And we said, yeah, yeah, we know, but we're cool. We'll just watch. And so, anyway, she made her way, her, she made her way back to us. And she was cool. And she said, do you see those guys over there?

They were bothering me, whatever. And we said, yeah. And she said, why did you come help me? And we said, well, obviously you didn't need us. You're back here now. And it was like, oh, yeah, that's right. I can do it myself. She's growing up right in front of your eyes.

Yes. That's what it was. And so that became sort of the theme of the record. So one of the cool things about this show is we often have the original stems, the isolated parts from a song. I was lucky enough to get my hands on the stems for four songs that you guys go-wrote and produced for the Jenna Jackson Control album. Are you mad at him for having the access to the same question?

Now I know my computer got hacked and now I know who did it now. There's a lot of stuff I want to play for you. The song I want to start with is What Have You Done for Me Lately? It was the first single on the album. It peaked at number four. It was Janet's first top ten single. She ended up singing it live at the Grammys. It ended up losing best Grammy to Anita Baker's sweet love.

Great song. Personally, I prefer whatever you done for me lately. But if you want to throw shade at Anita Baker, now's the time. Now's the time. You got the mic. It's on. I'm sorry, Anita. I love Anita. Of course. She's wonderful.

Would love to win. Love Anita. And before we get into the Sims, I just want to ask real quick, what is the origin of this song? Because I've heard that this song was actually prepared before, was cooked up before y'all met Janet. Yes, that is absolutely true. So when we started working on Janet,

Terry and I had been working on what we thought would be our own album. And we had been doing just tons of tracks and stuff. No songs necessarily, but just tracks, right? So John McClain, our guy from A&M, comes to town. and we play him to hear everything what we do. Visit BetMGM Casino and check out the newest exclusive. The Price is Right Fortune Pick. BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly.

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Good, right? Comes to Minneapolis. We play control, we play nasty, we play When I Think of You, we play pleasure principle, we play funny out time flies, we're playing all these songs. And like all A&R people, he goes, I just need one more. I don't hear a single.

Yeah, and we're like going, what are you talking about, man? He said, I know, I just hear one more. We say that forget it. So anyway, they're being honest about that? Are they just being like, or they're trying to push you? I think they're trying to push you. I think they're trying to push you a little bit. We never really let A&R people

ever into our sessions and do anything. But John was an exception because he was a musician and he just had great ears. I mean, we trusted him. We really did. A trust, yeah. Yeah. So anyway, but we kind of blew him off.

So anyway, we get in the car. We're going to, I remember this place called Rudolph's Barbecue in Minneapolis, which is closed, unfortunately, now. But we were going to grab a bite to eat. Terry puts a cassette in, cassette for those of you following at home. Terry puts a cassette in

and he says John listen to this stuff we're working on for our album and about the third song in John goes Oh that's the one I need for Janet What are you talking about? Wait had you been playing it for him

Hoping he would like want to put your album out Or we were just sort of But I know we were just playing it just To listen to something in the car Because he was always interested in what we were up to Yeah you're not playing these songs going Do you want one of these? You're just playing them No we're playing them just like just

Yeah just kind of casually, like, dude, listen to this stuff that we're working on. Our album, yeah. Yeah, we're just listening to this, right? And he goes, that's the song I need right there. That's the one I need. And we said, no, man, that's from our album. He said, no.

And John was very adamant, very arrogant, very aggressive, like he, but in a good way. I mean, but he was like that, right? So he was like, he gives us the whole plan. He said, play it for her. And if she likes it, give it to her. And we're like, okay, so we're just going to play our song, give it to her. were, you know, he's like, yeah, yeah. So, of course, the next day we go to the studio.

Janet is sitting on the couch. We're in the control room. We're looking at Janet, and we decide, let's just put this song on, right? Because otherwise, John's just going to bug us about it, right? So we put the song on, and Janet's kind of watching TV. So she's like this to us, and she's watching TV. And she puts her head down. She starts kind of grooving.

And she stands up, and she comes to the doorway. she leans on the door she points at the speakers and then she points at us the song goes off she goes who's that for and we said you're like oh that old thing oh I don't know it's just

it's like a demo track you don't want to you don't want to you if you want it and she said oh I want it can I ask you what exactly that song was what have you done for me lately is she hearing just an instrumental track or is there just no vocal not even a guide with

As the song comes in, that's what she's hearing. That's all she's hearing. There's no vocal guide. There's no concept of what the song is. It's just the track. Wow. It's hard. And speaking of which.

Speaking of which, let's get into it. Let's hear some drums. And there is a high hat on this, but interestingly, it's on a downbeat. Right. So you barely notice it. Right. And there's this little percussion thing that's about to come in, or a little reverse. Yeah.

That sick beat did not sound like anything. Those drums, that snare is. so big. Walk us through a little bit how you made that. So the Lindrum, not to be confused with the LM1, which was the kind of Prince Lindrum, I guess

did you consciously not use the LM1 because that was the Prince drum? Yes. We well, you know, Prince fired us back in the day. That's a whole other story. But we didn't want, our thing was we didn't want to give away the time sound or the Prince sound on records.

I mean, we obviously had a lot of the same influence. but we didn't want to give that sound away because we felt like that belonged to the time and that belonged to Prince. So we went to the Lindrum because it had a little different feel to it, a little different sound, and you could change the sound chips in them. So what you hear on that with the kick and the snare is that might be the standard kick for the lindrum, but the snare is a different snare. Was there ever a conversation before you started the album where you went in and said, look, this is, our process is, the two of us make all the music.

We're not going to get session musicians, and this isn't Quincy Jones. This is the opposite of Quincy Jones. We're not hiring. We're not getting Lewis Johnson on, you know, it's going to be the two of us making everything. And was that a conversation ever? Or they knew what they were getting because they'd heard, you know, the Shirel and everything else. How did that conversation about what the sonic imprint of the record would be? Or did they find out when they heard the songs later, when you turned them in?

So would control what happened was when Janet came to town, we didn't go to the studio at all. We wrote around the lake, we went to movies, we went to clubs, we just hung out. And the only song we had done was actually one that we didn't write called He Doesn't Know That I'm Alive. And one of our writers, yeah. Yeah, that's sort of like,

we always say every album has like that song that people don't bring up that much. That's the one for control, yeah. Yeah. So that song was already done. And that song was done so that we could have something ready when we were ready to go to the studio. Okay. And so after about five days of just kind of having conversations

and running around and all that, she said, when are we going to actually work? And we... Might be billed for all this late time? Yeah, exactly, exactly. So anyway, she said, and we said, yeah we actually started and she said you did and I said yeah and I showed her the lyrics to the opening lyrics for what became control oh wow you know when I was 17 I did what people told me did what my father said let my mother mold me whatever she looked at those lyrics and she said wait this is what we've been talking about we said yeah and she said so whatever we talk about that's what we're going to write about yes oh okay well then I want to like it was like it was like it was like the light bulb went off. It's like all these things.

We've been doing this podcast for a little bit, and I feel like those are where the best songs come from. It's like when Mark Ronson's hanging out with Amy Winehouse, and they're just hanging out in New York. Yeah. It's just a conversation. And she's like, yeah, they tried to make me go to rehab. And I said, no, no, no, no way. And he's like, wait a second, that's it right there.

We gotta go to studio right now. That's exactly. Got to go right now. It's those real conversations. That's where it all comes from. Are you and Terry kind of hanging out with Janet and then going off to the cafe with like, she said this, she said this. Like how?

Absolutely. Okay. And you've got like a yellow note pad, like, writing it all down? That's interesting. Yes. We had what we called the book of titles. Okay. And it was this kind of big, thick book.

And whenever we'd hear a line or a phrase or something that we'd just write it down. I can't love that. Because titles are different from like the lyrics, right? The titles, like that could be either what is sung or it is just the title. Yes. And that's such a core thing. That's so interesting. I will say as a comedy writer, I have my little file of great titles for something.

Yes. You know, I'll see a phrase. I'll see something. I'll be like, ah, is that a murder. mystery? Is that a, you know, like, what exactly is that? I want to bring us back, because there's obviously so much we could talk about. Can I ask one more question about the title? Just because I have one's on topic. Yeah, yeah. The deep dive is, we're deeply diving. Let's go. What have you done for me lately as a title? I'm actually curious because I grew up

where that phrase existed because of the song. That's until later in life that I came to understand, oh, this is something people just said before. And I did a little research before the show to be like, where did it come from? It's uncertain, but some real deep diving nerd did an analysis with charts and everything where there was no, that phrase wasn't used in books or newspapers until the early 40s, and suddenly there's an uptick. And you see like the frequency usage of that construction used. So in the 40s, it became kind of a known thing. So did you grow up and it was just a thing people said, or like, where did the phrase come from? Where did it land for you and Terry? So it landed for us. I'd never heard the phrase before.

And but we got someone sent us a, I think the store was called Spencer's Gifts. Yeah. Back in the day. She had the Spins's gifts. One of those mall stores, right? Replace to get a cup or a T-shirt. Okay. What was the things?

I don't remember what they were called, but remember those pictures you would look at? And if you looked at it one way, it would be like something. And if you looked at it another way, it would be another thing. I know you're talking about it. Do those have a name? Yeah, they had a name, but I just kind of shifted a little bit. Yeah, when you shifted it, right? somebody sent us one it was a mad face and it said the face of a client asking what have you done for me lately or something like that

and it was literally just hanging on the wall of our studio and i just looked at it one day and just said what have you done for me lately i like that and just wrote it down in the title book in the title book and that was it and so literally when we did the track i mean we weren't thinking of a a title at the time, but after Janet, we knew we were going to do it for Janet after she stole it. Then we... Not that she's nothing, but then that's when that title made all the sense in the world. I love this. I mean, I love taking it slow like this.

So she hears the track. I want this track. You've got the title. How do you match the title to this track and how does it, at what point is it the three of you writing it together? Like, how are lyrics and melodies then made from it? I did a sort of a demo of what I thought the melody should be, which I always would do.

I was always kind of more the melody person. And so I just knew it had to be a funky kind of... Our whole thing with Janet, and by the way, this is the last song we recorded with her because we had already recorded, as I said, all the other songs. The first time you came up with, but the last you recorded with Janet. Yes. And so we knew attitude-wise she could sing. Like that was our whole thing.

It was like her rhythmic sense of vocal in her breaths and in everything she did almost became part of the percussiveness of what the track was. So it was like if you gave the song to somebody another singer and they would say, used to be a time when you would pamper me. There's no funkiness to that. But if you give it to Janet and it's like Used to be a time when you would pay for me

And all of a sudden it's like Oh shit You know so that was always the thing with Janet And that was kind of the idea with the melody Was to do something that was almost conversational I love it And then do a weird harmony for the chorus So let's go deeper in the track

This is the bass line And so quick question for you I mean this sounds performed to me and not sequenced. Let's play it first and let's talk about how this got made. First of all, is that who's playing, is that sequenced or performed? And if it is performed, is it you or Terry, ostensibly the bass player, but it's a keyboard part?

Like, how are you, how are the two of you divvying up who does what on the song? That's me. That's you. And it's, yeah, and it's no, there's no sequencing going on. I never, I never sequenced anything. I've heard that. I've heard you play, like the 12-minute songs. just a 12 minute performance. That's exactly.

You don't loop it. Nope. That's insane. That's crazy. That sounds amazing too. Wow. And by the way, I love how, you know, regular listeners of the show know that I'm a big fan of this where I like how chunky it sounds. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's a chunky bass line. You know, like boom, bum, bum, bum, bum. Like,

it just, you can't help but move to that. Everybody always asks me what that bass sound is and they can never can figure it out, but it's because it's not a bass sound. What it actually is is the steel drum sound. Wow. Oh, from this song?

From the, yeah. It's a steel drum. It's D4 is the preset on OB8. And you have, if you unison it and then play it low, that's what it sounds like. And that has a bit of, I think, maybe Steve Hodge magic. Steve Hodge is your mixer, your engineer slash mixer. Yes, yeah. But here's the main hook.

So here's that marimba sound. that Jim was just talking about. It's very kind of Caribbean, Jamaica. So that's the same patch. Same patch as the bass range. Yes. Which is interesting. All this time, I was thinking it was like some kind of like weird like orchestral hit

or something like that. But it's not that at all. It's a marimba steel drum. It's a marimba steel drum. Which gives it that kind of interesting quality that it has, which as a bass, I'll play it again. Like if I were choosing a bass, I probably wouldn't choose that because I'm like, oh, it's not bassy enough.

Yes. It's kind of got like a thickness to it that's a little bit like wonky. But that's not a problem because in the song it didn't cause any problem. So I'm going to play with that beat. Oh my God. I mean, that just sounds like you. And by the way, so just to go back to your former question, that's basically what Janet heard. Right?

It's just that much because there was no vocal or nothing there. Oh, no bridge or anything, right? No, she didn't even, I don't even, I'm trying to think was the bridge actually there. I don't think we had done the bridge yet. I think it was just literally that group. God's gift to the soul. All these lyrics throwing shade at her ex-husband, DeBarge. Would you talk about that with her?

I mean, anybody who knew her life sort of figured like, oh, this must be like, you know, he hasn't done anything for her lately. He's had his dancing feet on her couch. Yeah, true. That's a really good question. I don't honestly remember who, if there was a single subject, or if it was more just metaphorical.

I don't remember. I don't think the DeBarge family is as big as it used to be. They're not out here, you know, hunting you down if you admit it's about DeBarge. Oh, yeah, no. I really don't remember. Honestly, I don't remember. Because I don't remember her being a bitter person about stuff. Yeah, yeah.

Like, I know a lot of people are like, you know. It is crazy. She was 18 and divorced. Yeah, exactly. That's wild. I know. You think about that. She lived a lot of life, for sure. Well, speaking of January.

Let's listen to some Jana Jackson, isolated vocals. Here we go. Cool. From what have you done for me lately. Used to be a time when you would pamper me. You still brag about it all the time. And one thing I want to point out, I gave you that warning a minute ago, is that Jimmy's also in the mix there. Uh-oh.

And we have it isolated? I do, if that's okay. It sounds great. No, no, it's all good. You still brag about it all the time. You still brag about it all the time Your friends seem to think that you're so big you're keen But my friends say neglect is on your mind

Who's right? Oh, I know, what's the matter with me? Here we go. Right. Who's right? Jimmy's right. What is it evoke hearing that back? Have you heard that in a while?

I mean, do you remember that moment? I actually have heard it back recently because we just did a live show in Pittsburgh Jam and Lewis show, our first Jam and Lewis show ever. We did in Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh Jazz Festival, just kind of as a proof of concept. And we had all the stims as we were, you know, building the band and building the part.

So, yes, I have actually heard that as about a week ago. I heard it, unfortunately. Okay. And here it is in the mix, as promised. And this is what you hear on the recording. Used to be a time when you would pamper me. You still brag about it all the time.

Now, do you remember the process that led you to these vocals, to these sessions? Does it sort of evoke like a memory of what happened that day or in that session? Was it all such a blur with, you know, you did the whole record in three weeks? Yeah, right. Well, it was actually six weeks. Six weeks. Not including the like movies part and the midland of late. Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. No, it was six weeks. Yeah, six weeks including the movies and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah, it's all a blur. I do remember we did this really fast because we were done with the record, remember. We thought we were totally done. So this was like, well, we have like,

you know, three days to get this done to make the deadline. Because the deadlines then were, you know, it was like a four month thing. You know, like I think you had to have like the album done. And then there was like four months that you needed to, you know, press it and to do the artwork and do all these other things. So I think we were just under the gun. I just remember it was, it happened really fast. And we did two songs. We did this song and we also did, You Can Be Mine, was the other song we did. That was like the same day. Yeah, it got stolen. Yeah, got stolen from our same. From our stash. From our stash. Yeah. So, yeah, so anyway, I just remember it, yeah, it was sort of a blur. It just happened all really fast. Yeah. But we thought

it was cool. It was like, okay, let's, let's do it. Well, one thing I love about your work is that I think your philosophy from what I come to understand is that speed is, is a friend to the creative process and like the fact of you apparently deadlines are deadlines are a good redlines definitely we all know this for the same experience but but not overthinking and kind of like you will listen back to takes and sometimes you might hear something that isn't 100% there but you're like well we liked it that day so it's probably all right to move forward with it that's the that's the i always say we we had a lot of great um teachers right um one of them was prince and prince it was all spontaneous first take prince would do a song he'd start a song of

the beginning of the day, the song would be done at the end of the day. Fully mixed, fully done. And so we learned that side of it. We also learned the kind of meticulous vocal exercise that was Leon Silver's the third, which was kind of the opposite. It was kind of like, we're going to get every breath and every syllable and every perfect. Yes. We're kind of a hybrid of the two.

And so what you hear on our recordings, I think overall, and certainly on this, there's certainly the imperfection of my voice with hers, but it's also the spontaneity, I guess you'd call it, and the energy of getting something done quickly. But that also makes it human sounding too. Nowadays you can pro-tool everything within an inch of its life, and it takes away a lot of the humanity. I think so, too.

You know, we're only human. We're born to make mistakes. You know, wise British man once. Absolutely. So I want to just quickly build a harmony stack for the chorus because it's really fun to hear the lead and then how the chorus background, the BG vocals, the BGVs come in. Here's Janet.

What have you done for me lately? Let's add one of her harmonies. Let's keep going. We got another one. Delvety. If you like that velvet, you'll like this velvet even more. What have you done for me lately? I can't listen to this.

I can't listen to this and not have my eyebrows just like raise higher and higher every time. So this is the ultimate eyebrow raise as we get this last fourth and final harmony. What have you done for me lately? Ooh, yeah. It's really subtle, but the velvet just keeps building and building and building on top. And I've heard you talk a little bit about Janet's process, but you want to kind of walk us through, like, how you would come up with what harmonies to sing and how you would work with Janet to get that stack to exist.

The harmony stacks normally would basically be whatever I would play on the keyboard. So it wouldn't be the normal stacks that a vocalist would think to do, because when you play a keyboard a lot of times, there's notes that are like right next to each other, and it sounds weird when you play them like that, and so it's very tough to sing. You're talking about like sevens and maybe a ninth and things like that. Yeah, but even though, yes, but even if you had, let's say,

what would be a like a E minor, let's say. And you have a B, D, and then an E right next to it, and then a G or something, right? The D and the E being next to each other, to hear that to sing is tough. Janet was always really good at that. And she just used to trust, I remember when we first started doing harmony. Oh, because she's singing it to herself.

Is that what she means? It's hard to sing it along. Yes, we always, yes. And I will say on the Janet record, with the exception of Lisa Keith on maybe one or two songs all the vocals you hear and of course me sneaking in underneath

all the vocals you hear are 100% Janet and that was important to us and that was the decision we made early on was that we wanted the record to be 100% her. We didn't want it to be yeah you know other people sing in it's like a hip-hop album and too many features you know what I mean it should be 100% her

she's hitting every background part every lead part it's like you you know that it's a Janet album right right and so that was really important. And meanwhile, it's 100% you and Terry. So the three of you are the entire Sonic. Everything we hear is really the three of you.

It's incredible. Yeah. You know, to me, there's several iconic moments on this album. You know, Janet's line delivery and what have you done for me lately in the video when she's like, what have you done for me lately? Yeah. There's no way you can see. No, that's her friend Melanie. That's her friend Melanie.

That's her friend Melanie. That's her friend Melanie. That's Melanie that. Who was that actress? I know he used to do nice stuff for you. But like the way she says late. You can't think of that face without thinking of the way she said lately. It's lateral movement.

Okay, next we want to talk about some sampling and interpolation. Interpolation. Kind of my catchphrase. He gets paid thousands every time he says it. Luxury, what you got for us in this department? I'm really interested in your take on the phenomenon as somebody in the middle, as a writer and producer, someone whose work has been sampled, has been interpolated, has been covered, has been paid reference in homage to. in the culture, but also as someone who uses samples and who we're going to get into that,

especially when we get to nasty. I'm curious your take in general about where does something for you cross a line into like, well, we need to have a conversation on either side of it. You hear something where it's like, wait, that reminds me of me, or you know, we're using somebody else's material. Where does it sort of become like, well, this is, this is a conversation that needs to be begun? I will start with something Terry, my partner always says.

He says we've never been sued for a number 20 record. When the record goes number one, trust me, there's somebody else. Somebody's going to show up. Or there's a hit. There's a writ. Yes. So, but it's just, we call it the cost of doing business. It just is what it is.

So to that terminology, I would say that I hear things all the time that sounds similar, but I also realize that there's a finite number of notes. There's only so many combinations that are good that can be made, and there's only a certain amount of combinations that actually are pleasing to the ear that people like. I mean, you can take music and do some really wrong, horrible stuff, and nobody's going to like it, you know,

and so you eliminate a lot of the possibilities that could happen. I have always, I remember back when sampling started, and you know how people ask you a question and they're expecting a certain answer? I remember people would ask us, what do you think about sampling? Yeah, accusatory. Assuming it would be a bad.

Like it's cheating and it's, you know, whatever. And we'd go, we love it. And they go, you do? And we go, yeah, we love it. Because to me, any record that I grew up with loving that influenced me, I tried to figure out a way to sample it and make a new version of it. Because to me, it exposes it to a whole,

whole other generation of people. And I had, you know, I'll just mention it's a different album, but on, I never forget on someone to call my lover. I remember being on the airplane with, um, not Dewey, but the other one from

America. I can't remember which one I was. But anyway, he said, um, he said, you Jimmy Jam, and I said, yeah. And he said, you built me my pool. Cool. And then, and then at the the Grammys, we won All For You won

Best Dance Recording. And I ran into a guy named Wayne Garfield literally at the McDonald's and Staples Center, which is now a crypto center or whatever. I was grabbing a quick, some fries and something I needed all day. And he goes, are you Jimmy Jam? And I said, yeah. He said, you built me my

house. Because he wrote Glow of Love. And so the royalties from All For You. Yeah. Yeah. The royalties from that record bought him in his house. So to me, I love sampling. I love interpolation. I love all that.

Well, you know, it's interesting, by the way, and interpolation, he asked me, he said, did you guys use the master for someone to call my lover, which is Ventura Highway? And I said, no, because Warner's wanted to charge us, I don't know, 100 grand or some crazy thing. And I said, I called Janice guitar player,

and I said, can you play Ventura Highway? He said, yeah, I gave him a grand. I gave him a grand, and that was it. And so they were out of the loop on that record. But, of course, you know, the people that wrote it got the credit as they should. Publishing side, you still got it. Publishing sites still got it.

But we had a couple of times when the master use thing was so incredible. And we're like, we can just, we can do this. We know how to play instruments. It's not like we're, you know, and so it's interesting. But no, I, overall, I love it. I love the tools.

It's all tools to me. The technology is all tools. And sampling to me is a great tool. Right. And I also, you recognize the line between something being a reference and something being like, you know, stolen, so to speak. The idea of stolen's always bothered me because the other person still has it. Like a bicycle, you take the bicycle, only one person has the bicycle.

You can borrow or sort of reuse an existing idea that you transform. It's not stealing. So that idea of calling it stealing has always really bothered me. It's only stealing. Yeah, and I agree with that. I think the only stealing part is when you know you're not giving credit or you're not. Yeah, I think in the early days of sampling, like, you know, there was no money to clear the sample. And the permission.

to do it. Yeah. Like I remember when we did, that's the way love goes, and James Brown was like, he was like, eh, that Janet is kind of risque.

I don't know. I knew that was coming. Yeah, I don't know whether we, you know, we said, no, James, it's cool.

We sent him the lyrics, we sent him the song, and he was cool. He was cool with it. He was like, okay, I like this. I like this. Okay, good.

You know. James was always like, hey, you can sample it, but try to keep you clean. Yeah, right, exactly. Oh, totally. Totally. Or even,

or another example. is Joni Mitchell when we did, took the big yellow tax, she forgot until it's gone. We thought, we had heard she was against sampling and she wasn't going to be with it. And Janet called her and she said, oh, I can't wait to hear what you guys do with it.

We were like, okay, cool. And then when we did it and sent it to her, she'd like loved it. She said, oh, I love this. I love this. And I had dinner with her about a year ago. And she said, you know the coolest thing about that record? I said, what's that?

She said, every day somebody comes up to me and says, Joni Mitchell never lie So I mean to me once again To me the bonds that can get forged over that I just I think outweigh any of the You know the cheating or any of those types of things So luxury is just going to play just a smidgin Like the smallest amount

Extraordinary legal That have sampled and interpolated some of your classics Well this is just actually even for this one song What have you done for me lately? Because it is such an iconic like song and like that phrase like I said I grew up thinking it was a Janet Jackson phrase.

So we have somewhat famously I'd say probably one of the most famous is from Sister Act 2 when they It's actually more of a cover or it interpolated Somewhere in between that So it's part of a larger medley but just a little thing Was that something that you know when it came in

You were like this is amazing you cleared it It was like 100% you know like no problem at all All of the above all of the above yeah no we thought It was an honor to have our song used. I always, when people sample or interpolate our stuff, I always feel totally honored by it. I mean, I'm trying to think, I'm sure at some point there was something that maybe lyrically

or for some reason we said, but for the most part, no, it's such a compliment to me. And what about this one? This is a banana-rama, paying homage, potentially, or potentially interpolating. Up to you. What do you think, Timmy Jam? No, to me

I heard boogie-ug-ug-o-hug-I-I-Hig-I-Hig-G-G-E. They're like, we're going to take all these black songs. Yeah, that's right, that's right. Banana-rama. They should be locked up. Yeah. What do you think about that one, Jimmy Jam? No, I don't think about it.

That's fine. He's not thinking about that. I don't know. Was that a number one record? Jimmy Jam's shade. Banana Ram has been thrown. Let's look up the more than physical chart position and then we'll see what we're doing tomorrow.

Okay, okay. See if someone's getting a phone call tomorrow. Okay, well, those are the main. Actually, there's one more. And this is kind of the main, I ain't snitchin, so tell me if you ain't heard this. What are your thoughts on hearing this? Exhibit? Oh, wow.

I haven't thought about this song in about 20 years. I would not have heard. I don't know if I've ever heard that song in my life. It's an album cut on, I would argue, like, his big album. Yeah, yeah. It was about 2002, I think. But, yeah, I remember that track did not occur to me. You're hilarious.

That bass name. It rings a bell. It rings a bell. Wow. Yeah. It was it number one. There are so many classic tracks out control. We thought we were narrowing it down. But clearly we could spin two. Yeah, sorry. We could keep on going.

I want to talk about nasty. Let's get into nasty. So I'll just jump right into it. Nasty. By the way, second single off the album. And it was track two. It peaked at number three on the Hot 100, number one on the R&B charts. and it won

Favorite Soul and R&B single at the 1987 American Music Awards a lot of accolades for this one. I know we usually go like drums since in a certain order I kind of want to

can we do vocals first this time? For you Dioa? We'll do you. Thank you so much. So for this album I mean you can't talk about nasty without the iconic line it's Janet,

Miss Jackson, if you're nasty. Who wrote that line? I mean to me it's a decade give it up for Jimmy Jam. But you said Terry Lewis is the lyric master, right?

Oh, he definitely is. Yeah. He definitely is. Before there was rhymingdictionary.com, he had rhyme schemes up here. The thing that's great about Terry, and as you can tell, I'm a long-winded talker, but it takes me a paragraph to say Terry can say in a sentence,

and that's what makes him such a great writer. I can go on, yes, he's concise. That's exactly what he is. I love it. Well, I want to, can we jump ahead to vocals because I think that this nasty to me is defined by. There's so many great lyrics we can unpack so much. What do you

got for us? I have the most vocal chunks to play from this song, but this is by far the most iconic in my mind in our collective consciousness. To this day, I don't eat nasty food. I just want to put that out there. Those are the nasty boys. Okay, here we go. Miss Jackson if you're nasty,

Acapella. I'm not a brood. I just want some respect. So close the door if you want me to respond. Because privacy is my mental name My last name is control No, my first name ain't baby It's Janet, Miss Jackson if you're nasty

Now when you hear her say that in the boot So funky So good That is so funky And that's exactly what I'm talking about. Her breaths And all the little things that she does As she's singing Just make that so funky

That's also a Jackson thing, isn't it? It is. I have a lot of Michael Jackson's fans and he's doing all the like he's doing that too is that in the Jackson like jeans I just think it is I never because we never worked with a ball

Joe would Joe would get on your case if you weren't breathing right at home like you had to be like can I get some butt time on your case for a lot of toast if you're like can I get butter on my toast you got I don't want to make a joke I want to make a really bad joke

you already did you already did but yes you know I think you had to breathe in the Jackson I'm sorry I interrupted Go ahead. No, that's She's got that. I mean, like, it's great when you can hear an acapella

and still want to dance. Like, it's insane how good she is on that. Yeah, I mean, listen to, I'm sorry, play just that first line. I'm not a prude. I think that's what it was that I heard. I'm not a prude. I'm not a prude.

I just want some respect. That's just. I'm not a prude. And people think, right, and that was a thing. I remember people thinking that those songs were all really easy to sing. and then I'd hear people sing or try to sing and it'd be like, no, you don't get it.

You're like, no pet pomo. You ain't got it. You ain't got it. Yeah. Pat Boon? Do you remember when she's saying that, do you remember it going like, did you guys all know, like this is the chunk, this is the part that people are going to remember? Yeah, and the way we recorded, which we've,

and once again, I mentioned earlier about Prince being so kind of spontaneous, and then Leon Silver's the third being so precise about the vocals. So Jana was a great combination of that Because what we would do In watching Leon in the studio Leon Silver's 3rd would literally Take little As the singer was singing

He would punch in and out On analog tape Which now digitally you can do it But analog tape he would do it To get a breath or to get a You know if the word is You know somebody says back at you I'm going to get the chah

Back at you And he would like literally And that And I thought as a vocalist that would drive me crazy because I'm singing the same thing over and over but I have no idea what they're trying to get. So we kind of took a page from that book

and what we would do is we would let the singer sing the song five, six, seven, eight, ten times, whatever it was. But in our minds and also on a sheet of paper, we would be making little marks of a certain word or a certain phrase or a certain breath or a certain little thing that we liked.

And then we'd let the vocalist leave and then we'd do what we called a comp track and we put all the best elements from all those little pieces together on one track and Janet I have to say was the funnest to do because there'd be you know little laughs or little little things like

or you know be all these little things that we could put in almost the spices on the sauce I totally agree I feel like I can't think of what song it is but there's a song where like she literally like giggles I think at the beginning of the track Yes. And then the track started.

But those little inflections are, I mean, like, people, I feel like there's still some people out there who don't understand the devotion that Janet Jackson fans have for Janet. You know what I mean? Like, you know, it's understood right now, like, Taylor's that person. And, you know, there have been times

when Britney Spears was that person. Janet has those fans, like, you know, and I think it's because so much of her personality bleeds into the song. Yeah, the humanity of it was always really important. It's more than just the song. It's more than the song. It's really kind of her personality and those little things.

And even things like I remember telling her on certain songs, if we were doing happy songs. And I would never look at her, but I would go, are you smiling? And she'd go, huh? And I'd go, are you smiling? And she'd be, what do you mean? I said, these are happy lyrics.

It makes a difference. It makes a difference when you smile and sing. You can hear it. Yes. And so little things like that I always was aware of, and I think that was really important when we made. made the records. Was if you were angry, if you were whatever, like put that thought in your mind and almost

be the voice of people that can't maybe articulate it for themselves, you can be that voice for them, whether it's a love thing or a mean thing or a mad thing or a happy thing or whatever those things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We talk about a lot on the show how, like, singing is, it's an acting job. And, like, to get the empathy from the listener, you really are putting on the character and the emotion that you want to convey in the song. Yeah, and Janet was wonderful at that.

but, you know, she had an actress background too. So some of that we were able to pull. And another thing on control, I'll just mention, that was great timing-wise, was we caught her at a point where she wasn't doing a million other things. She wasn't taping fame. She wasn't doing a TV show or a movie or whatever.

She literally had made up her own mind that she wanted to try singing. So she wasn't distracted. It was 100% for that, you know, for that, you know, six weeks or whatever. it was, it was concentrated, and it was away from L.A. It was in Minneapolis. So it was all about the studio, all about recording, and it was just, it just lined up perfectly.

I have to ask, since you mentioned, Janet, are you smiling? Like, when you have Janet in the studio, and I'm going to ask you to, like, put your brain where it was, you know, almost 40 years ago, like, you have her in the studio. Is she like, I always heard that Prince didn't want people looking at him when he was singing. I don't even know if that's true, but I've heard that. You know, we know the Jay-Z doesn't take any, you know, he memorizes the lyrics, then he goes in and records it, you know, without any lyrics.

What was Janet's thing? Does she have a thing in the studio? Janet just liked it to be dark. She liked candles. Okay. But mostly dark. We kept everything really dark in the studio. Yeah.

And I don't think she cared about being looked at. And a lot of times, I remember at that studio, because that was our first flight time studio, when we recorded this, there was normally a music stand or there was something that was kind of blocking her anyway, so we really couldn't see her. But we were, no, she was very comfortable. She didn't really have any, yeah.

And there was nobody ever in the room, though, besides us. There wasn't even an engineer in the room. Steve Hodge, once again, who mixed the record, he wasn't even in the room with us. It was just, we set it up, and then we could just work. It was intimate. Totally. We want to back up and do some drums here for Nancy,

Because to me, the song feels very industrial. You know, like, at least it did to my ears back then. So let's give me a beat. You say, well, how about this one, Janet? So one thing I want to ask you about this, I'm going to add some stuff to it. What you're hearing, those iconic percussion sounds, you know, we've got a kick in a snare.

But the rest of what we're hearing is, I think it comes from the Ensonic Mirage, Ensonique. Right, that was the sampler I understand you used. It does, but it didn't. Oh. Oh. You thought you did your research. Reveal the truth, Jimmy Jam.

Don't hold back. All the drum sounds are all Lindrum. Okay. So all of those, everything that you just heard is all Lindrum. It sounds like pots and pans. Even the percussive, like, even though, here, I'll play it isolated. This is the iconic nasty sound. What are we hearing?

Lindrum. That's Lindrum. That's Lindrum. Those are some of those P-ROM, those presets, those. Yes. rams, sounds that you just replaced? Correct. Interesting. Because I was going to ask, and Diallo alluded to it, when I hear this song, and let me just sort of step back for a second, across the song, you know, there's

kind of no bass. Right. There's kind of the only melodic elements appear to be coming from, and you're going to tell me whether this is a correct theory or not, but it reminds me of, you know, that like, you know, those old Casio samplers where you've got like, you know, dogs barking and you can do rough, rough, rough, rough, rough, rough, rough, rough. All the melodies appear to be kind of a sample where you've pitched it up and down. I'll play an example of it. This is ostensibly the baseline. Kind of the closest to the baseline.

And that's interplaying with other sounds. But I hear this and I hear kind of art of... Are you feeling your own track right now? Oh, yeah, that's... I love that. I love that. That's just so cool. So cool. When I hear that, I hear some other stuff going on in the culture at the time.

Like, I hear Art of Noise. I hear close to the... I'll just play a little bit of that. Trevor Horn. Trevor Horn. One of my all-time favorite. Oh, mine too. Oh, yeah.

Absolutely. And these are samplers that are playing, you know, car startup noises. Yes. And a little bit, and I think you just alluded to this a little bit, like a little bit, Depeche Mode. Absolutely. Absolutely. All these industrial sounds. Yes.

I love the German dance scene at the time. By the way, Depeche Mode, the guy who wrote the songs was Half Black. I just want to point that out. Martin Moore. Because I make everything racial. that's all so i wanted i wanted to hear um this song has so much of what sounds like sort of it's almost like it was an experiment how much can we make without going to the oberheimer without going to like a piano or more or guitar um tell me more about tell me a little bit about like was there

a philosophy behind it or did it just sort of end up that way so i first of all i love industrial stuff like i always love that kind of stuff so um The drum sounds were just kind of, you know, inspired by the noisiest noise we could make. That was kind of the idea of it. Is that where the song began as a beat where you're trying to do that? I don't honestly remember. What I remember is getting the mirage, the Insanique mirage, as you say, with the French accent. But I remember getting.

I remember that. I remember getting that and going through floppy disks. And they had, a lot of them were split so that the top keyboard was something, the bottom keyboard was something. The floppy disk had all the sounds on it because the keyboard didn't have anything in it. No, it had nothing in it. It was all floppy disks. And I remember the initial set we got, and I still can't figure out, I know your listeners will be able to help me with this. I still can't figure out what the actual sound was called on the floppy disk because it was one of the factory disks.

and it had literally what the bass sound is on the bottom hand and it had the kind of flutie sound on the top hand. So I literally, when I put that in, I was always inspired by the sounds. And when I heard those two sounds together, I literally went,

boom, boom, gink. That's crazy. That was it. It's not an accident that those sounds happen to both be on the song. That's what I'm saying. That's why they're on the song because it was an upper and a lower.

I think. It was split. Same preset. And it was called, it was something was seasoned. It was, it wasn't choir chamber, because there is a choir chamber. Someone in the comments is going to tell us. Yeah, somebody will tell us. And I'll, they're very helpful and correcting us.

I'll love to know what that is. Speaking of that flute sound, let's play that so that people can hear what you're talking about. So on the bottom half, on the bass, on the bass in quotes, but it acts as base. It's effective. And by the way, I had a quick question about that. Because, you know, absence of bass, we were talking about Prince before in many I mean, at this moment we have when Doves cry is already out there. I think Kiss hasn't come out yet by that idea of like drop, not having bass content in a song.

So it's such an interesting notion. Was that also conceptually a goal for the song? No, we didn't do it thinking that let's have a song without bass. Like that wasn't really the notion. It was just those two sounds together just sounded good. They were nothing to fill out. You didn't need anything more. No. And one little, you know, ascarus, or not ascarus, but a little note on that.

We did go back on the remix, on the cool summer remix of Nasty, and had Terry put a bass part on it. Yes. I have that. I have that. And that version is the version that attracted George Michael to us, which allowed us to do Monkey. But that's a whole other thing. Monkey? I didn't even realize you had a connection to Monkey. Are you serious? We did that, yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. Sorry.

That was my favorite song on the album. And you know what's funny? I thought at the time, I was like, oh, George Michael did an almost hip-hop song. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. That's a whole other story. That's a whole other episode.

Yeah, no. So here is the other half of the keyboard, the top half. Jimmy's playing the bass, bass in quotes, on the low part and this. And that's really it. You've just got two things happening outside of drums and vocals on the whole song. I'll play it contextually now, just so you can hear it in the mix. It really does sound like Martin Gore and Trevor Horn

And in listening to that I remember the hardest thing to do was Because I was playing it as As it was being written I'm playing with just So I'm going Don't go gank Oh you're playing both parts live

I'm playing both parts live But on the recording Because they needed to go on separate tracks I had to record them separately Did it feel weird to play Yeah it felt weird So literally What I literally did

Was I had another keyboard board. So I was playing, but it wasn't recording. So I was going, gong, go. That's like when you're recording drums and just the snare. Yes. You still got to do something. You still got a, yes. That's what it was. Was Janet down for this really hard industrial

sound or did you have to convince her? She was down with it. What I had to convince her about was when we gave her the lyrics and the melody, she said, she went in and started singing and she said, sitting in the movie show thinking that's what we said, no, no, no, no, no.

Too high. Too sweet. Yeah, it's too sweet. I said, remember the other day, because she had a cold, as a matter of fact, and she said, remember when you had your cold and you were like, sing it like that? And you were singing like that.

Sing it like that. And she said, really? And we said, yeah. So then she did. Sitting in the movie. And the low. And when she left the studio, I remember she thought,

this isn't going to work. And we said, no, no, come back tomorrow, we'll comp it and you'll hear it. And then I remember the next day when we comped it and played it back for her, she got this look on her face of it. just a total amazement. She was like, wow.

And it's like, yeah. But it was a kind of a breakthrough, a bit of a breakthrough moment because then it was like, we had our trust. And so anything we ask her to do, no matter how crazy it was, she would just go, okay.

She knew it was going to sound good. She knew, well, she trusted us. And if it didn't sound good, we said, listen, nobody's going to hear it if it doesn't sound good. Of course, not knowing that stems would exist, because there's plenty of things out there that we never intended for anybody to hear,

which by the way does bother me but we'll make sure that doesn't happen yes but but no but there was a trust there and that that was important all right well funny how time flies when you're talking about this album but let's wait a while and when we get back

we're going to dive deeper into the making of Janet Jackson's control when we get back