One Song - Sly and the Family Stone's "Thank You" with guest Novena Carmel

Episode Date: December 21, 2023

This episode of One Song Diallo Riddle and LUXXURY are joined by DJ and KCRW radio host and Sly Stone's daughter Novena Carmel in a special “Thank You” episode. We’re saying thank you to a songwriter, producer and multi instrumentalist who has made us dance to the music, taken us higher, and made us - the everyday people - appreciate the infectiousness of singing a simple song. Artist: Sly and the Family Stone Album: "Everybody Is a Star" Released: December 1969 Featured songs: Rhythm Nation by Janet Jackson, Sittin' Up in My Room by Brandy, Trip to Your Heart by Sly and the Family Stone, Mama Said Knock You Out by LL Cool J, Yellow Moon by Visacaynes, C'mon and Swim by Bobby Freeman, Laugh, Laugh by The Beau Brummels, Somebody to Love by The Great Society, Thank You For Talkin' to Me, Africa by Sly and the Family Stone, The Nazz by Lord Buckley. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today on one song, we want to say thank you. That is right, Dialla. We want to say thank you, first of all, to our listeners for listening to this show. Yeah. For giving us five-star reviews and telling all their friends about us. Shout out to the listeners, even the ones who leave hateful comments in one-star reviews. There's that one guy, man. That one guy is he bugs me.

But we were right. We were right about the Beatles. Listen, we also want to say thank you to a musical innovator, a true virtuoso, a pioneer of funk, an artist who sold over 8 million records. He woke up Woodstock at 3 a.m. and stole the show and wore a riveted leather jumpsuit better than anyone before or since. That's right. We're thinking a songwriter, producer, and multi-instrumentalist who has made us dance to the music, taken us higher, and made us, the everyday people appreciate the infectiousness of singing a simple song. Look how much I crammed in there. I'm so proud of myself.

While reminding us that at the end of the day, it's a family affair. Oh, luxury. Today's episode of One Song is a celebration of Sly. and the Family Stone, and we're saying thank you for let me be myself again. I'm actor, writer, director, and sometimes DJ, D'A Lauddle. And I'm producer, DJ, and songwriter Luxury, also known as the guy who talks about or Whispers Interpolation on the internet. You don't usually whisper the word whisper.

I will say that. I sometimes whispered the word whisper, but I shouldn't have a whispered. Shout to the whispers, by the way. Great band. Grand Silvers would love them. Amazing. Amazing baselines. Sick stuff.

And I'm thrilled to welcome our special guest for this episode. She is a DJ, a recording artist. And if you live in L.A., you have most definitely heard her on the radio, hosting KCRW's Morning Becomes Eclectic. And as the daughter of Sly, she is herself a member of the Family Stone. Novina Carmel, welcome to One Song, and how are you? Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm great.

You guys are a hoot and a half. I'm just enjoying listening to the intro and just like, I want to join in on the banter. No, please join in on the banter. This is the time. You are now officially part of the banter has begun. The medley of song titles that you did masterful. I am so oh my God, the fact that

you have not heard that to death and you aren't irritated by it gives me so much way. Oh, she's heard it to death but she's laughing how dead she is inside. That's what's going on. No, all of that put together I haven't heard quite that way. By the way, I just want to point out that it was kind of appropriate given that this song

thank you, incorporate so many lines, basically so many titles from their previous songs. It was actually apropos. All of it was considered and strategic and tactical. Actually, that was just a funny coincidence. But you're absolutely right. This song has famous for- I thought it was all planned. Referencing these other songs of the hits of the day. So we have so much to talk about with you.

We're so glad you're here. Thank you for joining us. Thanks for inviting me. I'm really excited to be here. Okay, so right off the bat, something I'm wanting to ask you is, did you actually grow up listening to your dad's music? Or is it one of those things where, you know, they weren't, he wasn't sitting at home listening to it. You weren't exposed to it in your day to day.

How, tell us a little bit about what it was like. Yeah. So the main albums that I was listening to, to start were whatever my mom had around the record player at our house in Sausalito. I just remember that was sort of like the central point of the living room. And a couple of Sline the Family Stone Records were definitely in the mix. I don't recall them like being pushed on me. Or anything like that? Were you made aware that this was your dad?

I knew it was my dad, yeah. I don't remember, like, I think I just always knew. Okay. And there was also, like, Michael Jackson record, Guns and Roses in excess. It was the 80s. Stevie Wonder, I think, yeah, it was the 80s. It was the 80s, all the, like, good stuff of the 80s. And so, yeah, absolutely.

I mean, but it wasn't like I listened to his album more than other people, but it was there from the very beginning, for sure. Did you have a relationship with it? When you put it on, did it sort of, was there something different about it for you? Maybe a little bit, like, but I couldn't really put it into words yet. It was just like something almost where I felt like a little bit shy about it. I don't really know how to describe it, like, at the time. And I remember looking at the one of the albums, I think it was Stand, the one that has like the collage of all the pictures and everything.

Yeah, yeah. And- You mean the baby pictures? Yeah, or just like pictures of everybody in the band and everything like that. See, I don't have stuff memorized, but it was one of the albums. And I was, I remember thinking like, okay, it was almost like, is this like a family photo album? Like my mom wasn't, I don't remember her describing it to me. So I'm like, am I in this photo somewhere?

Wow. Like, who am I related to in these photos? Just trying to guess who people were based on what I knew that they looked like. So that was like an interesting experience for me as well. That's so interesting, yeah. You know, I will say, you know, in certain worlds, you know, in certain sort of like communities, my father's pretty famous. He was like he was a painter and a sculptor.

And so most of my childhood was going to art exhibits. You know, he's been shown at the brood. He's been shown at the contemporary craft museum. I love his stuff. He was all over his house. Yeah. Yeah. And the family, we're lucky enough to have kept some of the pieces.

And some of the pieces are just like in these expensive collections. So we only see it. when it comes out in museums. I only bring it up to say that anytime, you know, people from those circles ask about my father, I feel like they're talking about someone else, you know? Because, like, in their eyes, everything that John Riddle Jr. did was so serious and profound. And there's that side of my father.

But when I think about my dad, I think about him, like, sitting on the couch, drinking a beer and watching the Lakers game. You know what I mean? Like, there's that dichotomy of, like, what the public persona. Yeah, what the public persona is. And then I just think about my dad, like, yelling at the TV like, come on, Ruff! You know, Kareem got that shot off clean, you know.

You know, so I always think that's sort of interesting. I'm curious, both as a DJ and as an artist, you probably have a profound appreciation for his music, especially now. But like in your teen years or in some part of your life, did you rebel and sort of listen to anything but your father? Like, did you go to that period? You're like, I don't want to hear it anymore. I just want to do me or do something else,

especially since you're a recording artist as well. Yeah, I never had that period. Never, okay. I could see it being the case. Maybe I'm just a bad son. Well, no, the thing is that's different is it sounds like you grew up with your dad in your house. Yeah. And so he was around you a lot.

His work was maybe in some way or another. I hear where you're going. It's the, yeah, to a certain extent because he was around and because he was imminently familiar, there was that whole thing going on. So I'm just like, yeah, because it's like we kind of like are, in weird ways like anti the people were close to like I'm around you all the time

It's so true My father was really into jazz So for a good portion of my childhood I just never wanted to hear jazz That is my dad's music No interest And then the second my father passed I was like

I just want to hear His opinion about Horace Silver Or you know Hampton Hawes Like all of a sudden When his voice wasn't there Yeah All of a sudden that's when I was like

Oh man I wish I'd ask him about this stuff You know, like it's, yeah, but I didn't mean to cut you off. My dad was never there, so. I mean, it's nice. I say that, you know, I mean, it's fine. It was fine. It wasn't like, I just didn't grow up around him. My parents split up when I was like three.

Yeah. And I didn't spend a lot of time with him growing up. It was like I could probably count the number of times. So it was definitely very different. You know, like I probably would have liked to hear what he thought about different things. and so It really is maybe a case of familiarity breeding

a certain level of contempt contempt, yeah. But that's definitely at work here. It's a funny thing, isn't it? It is. It is. And at the end of the day, it's like we, I also really relate to the idea of like having my own personal way

that I see him as a person versus like what people think of him as, you know? and that's an interesting thing as well. But yeah, I always loved his music. And I just would like discover it in different ways. That's interesting. What does that mean?

Yeah, like I don't think my mom was like listening to him a bunch. Maybe she had some content. But she was nice enough to have the records there. She was always actually, I give her props because she never said anything negative about it. him. Wow. I always, I.

Which may not have been easy. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Like I remember, I feel like she consciously was like, yeah. It's best if I try to like not, at least not paint him in any sort of negative

light, right? So, but I remember like an interesting thing when I came across, um, the soundtrack for Dead Presidents, the film. Oh, yeah. And big soundtrack. Yeah. Amazing soundtrack.

And I heard the soundtrack before I ever watched the film. Mm-hmm. And it had, if you want me to stay on it from the album fresh. I didn't know that album at all because we didn't have it at home. And, you know, like, in the 90s, it was like, I wasn't really, there wasn't like a radio station

that I would listen to. They would play it. We didn't have streaming services and, like, curated playlist and stuff like that. So I had never heard that song before and I was like, this is a dope song.

I was like, oh, my God. And you just had, like, a relationship where it was just like, you were able to relate to it just as music you liked. Yeah. Not that was related to your dad necessarily.

Yeah. But did that then bring you more into his music? Is that kind of a stepping stone? Yeah, I think it was just like little by little And then finally when I like really got into Studying music more like as I don't know It just was like over time gradually

I never I don't remember having like one particular time Where I was like I need all of the discography right now And like really do a deep dive That's more of a modern thing Yeah I love the demos the B sides everything no Yeah just over time they come and like organically you know And even to this day it's like I'll still hear songs

and I'm like, I feel like I've never heard that song before. Or it's just like, like, I used to say people would ask me like, or not people would ask me, but if I would ever think to myself, do I have a favorite album if someone were to ask me, which occasionally they do. For a while, my answer would be fresh. And then recently I was really getting into small talk.

Wow. Just because like maybe I was tired. That's the one 74, right? Right after, right? Yeah, I was after. And it's a totally different feel. and I think, you know, in general, like music kind of hits you at different times in your life and resonates in different ways, just depending on, like, where you're at.

And that's personally something that I enjoy about is music because it actually, like, goes through so many different genres or time periods. You know, it starts out with the stuff that's, like, kind of more like 60s, like, duop-y, bandy sounding. And then you have, like, the kind of more solo. cerebral stuff, more drum machine-based. We're going to get into all that because I think the one thing that was important for us is like, you know, regular listeners of the show will understand that like we come in on one song and we focus on one song, but we really try to tell the story behind the song. And we sort of try and chart where does this song come in this personal, in this person's bio?

Like, you know, is this the beginning of the career? Is it the middle? Is it, you know, the end? I think this is an interesting song because in some ways, at least for my own understanding of Slide and sort of his chart from like, you know, San Francisco hippie darling, if you will, to sort of like the sort of blacker, you know, militant content of the 70s. Like this is almost like a perfect halfway point. But we're going to get into all that. Okay, cool. And to another thing you said, I just also want to like highlight what you said about your relation. It's interesting. I think most people's relationship with any artist is similarly like it's one song at a time.

And then overtime, you've sort of demystified the idea that people might be walking around. Like, well, she knows everything about every lyric and every song. Just like, like, I don't think that's true for nearly, unless you're a real obsessive, which people can be like maybe about the Beatles. There are people that are like liner notes and all this. For the most part, our relationships with music and bands, the wonderful thing is that your entire lifetime it unfolds. And you may not, I haven't heard every David Boy record, not even close.

And even for for this show, I've been like, I didn't really know the album fresh, but oh my God, it is so good. And I've been enjoying that it is new to my ears. So how wonderful that we have a whole lifetime to experience Sly. And so do you. Yeah. It's so cool. It can unfold that way.

Yeah. I feel the same way. And I think that's what's so great about being into music is like there's infinite journeys that you can go on. We will never know all of it. We will never hear all of it. And you of all people, you're absorbing so much for your morning. You've got to get three, four, five hours every morning. Like, not three, four, five, but between you and your co-host.

Like, you are clearly absorbing and digesting so much music and you'll never get to all of it. Even if not one more song was ever made again, there'd still be like an infinite amount of music to listen to. But how wonderful? How wonderful is the abundance? I love it. I'll tell you what else you'll never be able to hear everything that we could discuss on this episode. But for right now, we're talking today about thank you, an amazing song. And we have the stems for the song, which you're going to hear. Of course, this was recorded before you were born.

But I just wanted to ask where, what does the song mean to you? Specifically, thank you. Visit BetMGM Casino and check out the newest exclusive. The Price is Right Fortune Pick. BetMDM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly.

If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2,600 to speak to an advisor. Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Just as a general, like, ethos for life, I am a big fan of the freedom of self-expression. And as a person, I try to make people feel comfortable to be, like, whoever they are. And if someone tells me that they feel that way around me, it's, like, a huge compliment. So when I think of the lyrics of the song, or at least the title of the song, like, thank you for letting me be myself.

it's kind of like the ideal of what we all, what space we all want to be in is a space that we can be ourselves. So that's how I think of it. I love that. Well, we're going to get into the song. We're going to talk a little bit about the band just for some context. I'm going to talk a little bit for just the next moment or so. The reason why Sly, I think, is a musical genius who,

we were just discussing before the show, before he started taping. To me, he's one of the, like, not forgotten by any means, but he's one of these geniuses whose music has such. a huge impact on the culture and yet he's the sort of artist who it happens to me all the time where i'll hear a song and i'll be like this song is so seminal but i'm not hearing it enough in the world it isn't sort of up there in the pantheon with the stevie wonders and you know beetles it's like it should be up there with the dillans and the nirvana's like this pantheon of musical talent so we want to start sort of correct that to a certain degree with this episode we want to make

sure that sly is up there in the mount rushmore as we like to use that expression so that's one reason why we're doing this episode. So that leads me to a question for you, our guest, today. Why do you think your dad's music still resonates with people all these years later? I think because it's really good. It is so good. It's really good. One thing that I've noticed about, at least like his biggest hits is the simplicity of the lyrics and the statements. A lot of times the hooks are not even like, they're not even rhymes. It's just a sentence. You know what I mean? And so it's like, I want to thank you for let me be my, right? And they just like repeat that.

It rhymes with itself. Yeah, I mean, it's just a statement. That's a great. I never thought of that before. That's pretty awesome. And it's very easy to sing along to. I thought the sing-along part of it reminded me a church. It reminded me of like, you know, his gospel roots, if you will.

Because they started off as a gospel group, like in the very earliest inconation. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they came from singing in church. church, being a gospel group in church, and all of that. And yeah, I mean, if you look back at any the song titles, we could probably name off like maybe all of the hits. It's the same thing where it's just like an affirmation. Yeah, right. You're right. Sort of like not a bumper sticker, but it is that the idea of a command. A command, sure. Dance to the music. Dance to the music. Sing a simple song. Right. I want to say higher. Higher, higher. Higher. Yeah. Yeah. And then obviously

the musicianship is just incredible. and even like a lot of it is I feel like it was just like really mixed well too so it doesn't have that quality where it's like oh there's not enough like drum in here or enough bass sometimes old songs like they don't hit yeah the songs still really hit too not to say that they have to hit I mean there's songs but it always makes a big difference I think it's one of the reasons why his catalog has been you know so sampled and so often sampled because the drums and the bass because it's meant to be dance music and in that most

moment they're figuring out how to, like technically in the producers like chair, they're figuring out how to make drums and bass sound good because they didn't, you could barely hear bass just a couple years earlier. Yeah, I think you were talking earlier about Brian Eno, the famous British music producer saying that, you know, he put a priority on the bass and rhythm elements of the song so that, you know, you could just, you could never imagine future generations making funk and soul without that sly influence. So let's get into the song. We're going to start with a little bit about the man and the band. So sly, himself, Sly and his family. They do come from Texas and then they moved to Vallejo. They are,

as we were just discussing, in the youth choir. Their first original incarnation was when they were kids, they would sing together. And Slyg picks up instruments really quickly. He gets a guitar. He learns how to play the keyboards. He very, in high school literally, joins his first band. And they're called the Viscaynes. And this is one of Sly's first ever recordings. He's in high school when he does this. This is Yellow Moon by the Viscaynes. It's so of its time. What's that? I love this.

I love that. And it sounds like his voice when you hear it, you know? Yeah. He really does. And then did you hear Walking in Jesus' name? I don't know that one. Oh, that's when he was nine years old. What?

So before he was in the Viscaynes, his church group was called the Stuart Four. Okay. I don't remember who the four was. I mean, maybe like other family members were in it. Okay. But he has a song called Walking in Jesus' name. And I think that's. like the earliest recording. Oh my god, that's amazing. He was around, yeah, I think he was around nine

years old. And the crazy thing is, it sounds so much like him, like the rafts to his voice, the delivery. He's already coming into his voice, literally. That's incredible. Yeah. Now, one of the fun things as I was doing research into this is, first of all, I'm from San Francisco. We're both from the Bay Area. And Sly, he's moved to the Bay Area at this point. He's a radio DJ, sound familiar, a KSOL. This brings us to the next step in his career when he gets to discovered by a couple guys who founded a record label called Autumn Records. They sign him up. They learn that he's a multi-instrumentalist. He's a songwriter. He's a producer. He's a DJ. They love this guy. And they bring him in to the fold. And he ends up recording his first gold record,

which is Come On and Swim by Bobby Freeman. This is from 1963. Come on, Evan. Yeah, exactly. And it's got a dance. And it's got a dance. Is that literally the dance? I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, no, the swim is like famous. It's like, you know, but he, right, the swim is famous. I don't know. Is that the swim? No, the swim? Absolutely.

The swim is big. And you were doing it, though. Yeah, so I guess the swim already existed, but maybe, like, it wasn't really songs about it. We talk about this a lot on the show. Like, I feel like there was a time in the music business when something could be big out there in the culture is like get in the studio, record a song with just make sure. I guess we still have that. I guess that's what, essentially. That's a TikTok is.

Yeah. So Slice star is rising. He's getting money and he moves the whole family to. the Bay Area to Hate Street, and they're all living under one roof. And he has the idea, like, he's actually Jerry Martini, who is the sax player for Sly and the Family Stone, enters his life at a certain point. He's a huge, is a good friend and a fan. He's like, you've got to start a band. He's the one who's really poking him and pushing and prodding him. So Freddie, his brother has a band called Freddy and the Stone Souls, and they've got Gregor Rico on drums. And they just

have a conversation like, let's just merge forces. We are one band. We are Sly and the family. Now, I I want to ask question, is this the period where, like, I guess, like, comes across Grace and the Great Society? That's an excellent segue. So while he's at Autumn Records, after this first hit record, the one we just listened to, the number five, which he co-wrote, by the way. And apparently he plays Oregon guitar and bass on that Bobby Freeman record. So they moved to Hayd Ashberg. He's now officially a producer. And among the many acts that he's working with. So one is called the Bo Brummels. One is called the Great Society. and that band, which would later become. Becomes Jefferson, airplane, and then Starship. And he actually, at the time,

they were still the great society and somebody to love, they have this song. And they're doing take after take, and they just can't get it. And Sly's like, I'm out of here. So that's his experience with Grace Lick. So it didn't quite work out. But they ended up doing all right.

So peace out to them. And then he also works with the warlocks before they become the Grateful Dead. So Sly is like in the middle of like what is happening. in San Francisco musically, like from all, like, the radio side of it, the producing, the writing, he's everywhere, and it's time to form his own darn band

because he's got too much talent that he's giving away for free to all these other people. So in 1966, they form sly and stoners combined with Freddie and the Stone Souls, and it becomes Sly and a Family Stone. And from the get-go, it was always intended to be, the vision was always this integration

of black and white and boy and girl. Now, he'd had a little, taste of that with the viscains who are you know there were there were girls and boys and there was Hispanic uh i think one of the guys was Hispanic and then but this was really his attempt to like take that to the next level and just again integrating everything he'd been learning on the radio with his musical tastes and with his sartorial fashion choices by the way which is just like ludicrous i just want to i want to tie a line from slide to ludicrous these are guys who started off on radio they saw what was working and at some point you know chris love a lover was like i'm

to become a rapper named Ludacris. And similarly, Sly was like, hey, I can do this. But it's also kind of like our conversation about massive attack. You never know where our conversation is going to go. Go ahead. No, I was just going to say, it's also a bit like our, we did an episode about Massive Attack. It's a similar idea. It's DJs.

So they're like absorbing music and they know what's cool and they know what they like. They're like, let's take this and do our own thing with it. I love it. It's like the Pet Shop Boys like giving harsh reviews on music of the day. And so it's like, oh, you think you can do any better? And they're like, well, maybe we, maybe we should. You know, like, I love them. they come from a left angle like that.

The first album, a whole new thing comes out, and it's a great album, by the way. It's very different from the rest of what comes, is about to come. And it doesn't necessarily do that great. Apparently Miles Davis and all the hip cats love the record, all the, his peers, musical peers, love the record. But it doesn't do so well in terms of sales. And the label comes back and says, look, we still love you, but you've got to, you've got to simplify it, basically. And as we were just discussing, like, this is the era of, like, literally it turns into a formula. Let's not do any chord changes.

You know what I mean? Like a lot of these early songs, it's one chord. They're jamming on a riff, jamming on a groove. And they've got, as you were saying, one simple sentence that may or may not rhyme. And that includes the hits, Dance to the Music, Everyday People, and this one. These were three top 10 Billboard hits in 68 into 69. I mean, he expressed that he was so excited to do his own thing on a whole new thing that he had all these ideas and he just wanted to jam pack all his like cool guy ideas.

And he's such an advanced musician. So he's like, I'm going to do this one crazy idea and this other crazy idea. And that's why like Miles Davis loved it because it was like jazz chords and jazz. It would go from one thing to the next to the next within a single song. And you're like, you're right, the jazz connection is a really good one. Especially the jazz of the time, sort of avant jazz. Exactly. It's not pop music.

It's not pop music. And then when his manager or whoever he was working with was like, you need to He's like, oh, I know how to do that. I wrote all these pop songs for these other people, like, Come On and Swim. And I know what was working on my radio show. I know how to do this. I just do apply that to my own. Yeah, right.

And not to put too fine a point on it, it is really important to point out that he is blending completely different genres. And that's part of what makes the music so unique. And before we move on, I just want to say that, like, you know, we all, here at the show, we always try to put everything in its historical context. I think that it was actually my brother who was one of the hugest Sly and the Family Stone fans of all time. He always says that his best concert-going experience of all time was he went to see them perform at the forum here in L.A. In either 1970 or 71.

Oh, wow. And he told me, I think it was around like the time Obama was running for president, this theory that made so much sense to be then it does now. He was like, in some way, Slyb was the first Obama. in the way that the, especially the rock critics, the way they received him was like, you could have put his picture on a hope poster and it would have made all the sense

because here's a guy, he's not wearing the suits that like, you know, the four tops would wear or whatever. He's dressed like a hippie, you know? And then his band has women and men. It just seemed like the promise of this hippie generation all in one band because they had catchy songs. They were from the right part. of the right city at that time

and it just seemed to come in with this optimism and with this hope and the songs were fun everyday people. The songs carried an optimism and a hope. And here comes this song. Thank you for letting me be myself again. Which, you know, I think we might be something at the same age.

Like, I remember in the 90s listening to music and thinking like, oh yeah, that's a pretty happy song. But then at some point I actually looked into the lyrics. It's like, it is like, it is like, like a person who you know it's like dealing with a bipolar person because the music's upbeat and it's happy but then you look at these lyrics

you know where he's talking about the devil's pointing a gun at him and he's laughing and you know and we're going to get into the lyrics but I just think it's important to say that like this was one of the first songs where those same music critics kind of begin to turn on him a little bit because

they're like where's the hopeful guy where's the guy who made us feel so good about ourselves and this is one of the first, I think, sort of definitively, very black songs out of sly in the sense that, like, he's talking about, you know, and we can talk about the layers, but he's talking a lot about the black experience. He's talking about, you know, somebody shooting at him, you know, presumably, you know, a racist or maybe it's a San Francisco police officer. But he's talking about, like, you're shooting at me. I start to run, but then I turn around and I, you know, I jump on

top of you and beach up. You know what I mean? Like, you know, he talks about a party. Hey, I want to be at a party, but I cannot stay. And like, this is the beginning of almost everything that comes after this one, because it's after this album that we get the more politically obvious, you know, lyrics, you know, out of him and out of this band. So I wanted to just bring that up because you sort of have to understand where this is, not just in the history of the group, but also in the history of the country, that these lyrics made so much sense to sly in his fans at the time.

And we've talked about how for your experience with the music, it's, you know, you've come to the music in different ways, like the songs and the albums in different ways. I'm just curious for this one particular before we start to break it down. Do you have kind of a relationship with this song in particular? I think I've, like,

tried performing it before. Oh, really? And memorizing the lyrics is hella hard. Is it? Because it's such a, like, story. It is. Every verse is a different story. A different story.

And then the last verse is so, like, it feels like, like, first of all, the song is long. It's not a pop song length. And then the third verse, it feels like he's like, okay, I still have a message to say, but I'm not even going to think about how these like words fit well rhythmically.

I mean, they fit, but it's like, the first two is more like, is just the flaming eye, but something, something. Is this like trying to pack it? Like, okay, we're going to do one more verse and I got to get all my idea in. Until he gets to the end of the verse and then it hits you with that crazy, you know, dying.

young but selling out is harder. Yeah, just like... One of the hardest lyrics of all freaking time. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. And it's hard to deliver that you're saying, or it's challenging to get in that... Yeah, yeah. It's interesting.

I mean, it doesn't even like flow as well as the other ones do. And that one's always like stuck out to me. It's like, what were the thoughts here? That you didn't make it flow in the same way that the first two verses do. And then I think Diallo, like, it was really interesting what you were saying about what the lyrics like represent, you know, like being black in America and all the different things that you said. And I think there's also like for him, you know, he's already turned out a number of hits at this point and there's a lot of pressure on him. So much fame. As a man, as an artist,

as the lead of a group, as someone who has all this charisma and the power similar to like Obama or something, like the price, the responsibility that comes with that. And so I look at the lyrics also in that way too, like, when you're responsible for so much and people look at you in a certain light and have certain expectations for you, but then you're also not even like a political leader. No. You're an artist.

An artist is somebody who creates and expresses and you don't want to be like locked into one thing. So I hear a lot of that in it as well. I think about the, we will get to the song, folks. That's dying. But, you know, fear in people's eyes. Like I just, I hear, and obviously like with all, once you put it out there, people ascribe what it means to them,

what they think it means to the artist. Like there's so many interpretations for it. But like, there's definitely a person dealing. He's one of the most famous people in the world at this point. And I think that you hear a lot of that in these lyrics too. After the break, we'll be back with more slime, more family and more thank you. And yes, we have the STEM. So you will hear this song in a way you've never heard it before.

We'll be right back. All right, so let's get into the song. Thank you for let me be myself again. It was number one for two weeks on the Billboard Top 100 in 1970 and five weeks at number one on the R&B charts. It's one of their three number one hits, and it was the number 19 song of 1970. By the way, it was originally, we were talking about a minute ago.

It was a 15-minute jam. So the original like master tape, it is a 15-minute jam. And speaking of the whole Prince Jimmy Jam thing, it's like that we haven't talked about the Prince connection, but there's clearly a lot of sly in prints, not the least of which is the idea of like, hey, let's do a 15-minute jam and chop out the three to four-minute single version

and then we'll do the seven-minute version for the extended. And on stage, I'm going to make you play the jam till I tell you to stop and it could be 20 minutes. A lot of sly to Prince connectivity in that. Definitely. Right, right. So let's start with the drums. This is Greg O'Riko.

And it's a pretty simple beat. There's something interesting going on. I'll point out. in a second, but let's start with just the beat. And by the way, just a little caveat, these are the stems that I have are a little bit mixed. They're not perfectly isolated. So you'll hear a little bit of horns in the drums here and there. And we're going to start with drums a little bit of horns. Now one fun thing to point out, by the way, is that there are apparently two takes of drums and you can kind of hear it like a little later on.

There's little flams where they don't quite hit at the right time. So there's like an overdub. I'm going to find that moment for you. Here it is. It's just a little moment, just kind of fun fact. Yeah. So it didn't get it exactly right. It's not a double drum. He doesn't have a metal drum there.

Right, exactly. Like Metallica, right. And I've heard that it was like, not controversial is not the word, but like the fact that like this sole funk outfit had a white drummer. Yeah. It was like a big deal. It was like a conscious choice. It was a big deal. From what I've read, like Greg himself knows he wasn't the best drummer.

Like this election wasn't purely based on the, most talented. He's a fine drummer, but he would be the first to admit it's like, look, there was this other guy. He didn't choose him. He chose me. One thing that I actually, look, I love Greg as a drummer because he's insane. But I also have to point out here that like your, Sly is one of the first people to really use a drum machine in solo music. I mean, like, I think that little sister song. In outside of a demo, like it gets on the radio, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Like, it's just like nowadays it seems so common sense that we, we would all kind of like that, like, you know, measured beat.

But like... The robotic mechanical perfection is cool, but at the time... But, I mean, even, like, in my lifetime, we've all seen that bumper sticker, like, drum machines have no soul. And yet, so many of my favorite... I'm going to step a little bit out of the timeline here and bring up a song on Fresh called In Time. And in Time, it is an amazing song,

because, you know, it literally starts off with that drum machine. Yeah. And it just... I feel like without... And once again, my brother was the first person to point this out. to me. I feel like without in time, you don't arrive at some later classics like Marvin Gay's sexual healing, Princess Sign of the Times. These are completely funky, soulful songs that also start off with that very prominent drum machine. And if I can just build on that for a second,

because we are such sly fans, even though the show is called one song, there's a second song I don't mind tapping into a bit because Family Affair, another huge hit in my top three. Another drum machine. another drum machine. And I do have the more extensive stems for this. And I did want to play for a second. Here's a little snippet of what Family Fair sounds like, just to remind you, if you haven't been watching TV and heard it on 30 commercials today already. I am not tired of that. I'm really not. I'm really not tired of that song. I'm sorry. It sounds so clean. I mean, like, I think that this is a band that's known for being innovative. Like so many times you think that they're done and like they just go a little bit further. And this is one of the innovations, not just using the drum machine, which was like, this is the maestro,

King Mark 2. It would have been something you would literally use if you were a solo musician playing at a club and you couldn't afford to hire an actual drummer. It's almost like a glorified metron. Yeah. And it sounds dinky to our ears, but the dinkiness as character. This is what he uses. I like that you thought you were going to use the word dinky

and I wasn't going to call you. I used dinky every third episode. It's my favorite word, especially when describing drum machines. This is what that drum machine sounds like by itself. And what Slyde did whether or not for the first time ever, there's always this previous innovator. and a huge pop record, though, was to blend that with live drums and create this incredibly

interesting mix. So I'm going to put together, he overdubbed separately, by the way, the kick by itself and then the snare by itself and then the cowbell. Here's what he started to add to that to make this really cool rhythm, which is a blend of live and out of the box. Right? So sick. So sick. And this is an innovation. And this is an innovation. And this is another Prince connection because that's what Prince started to do all the time in no small part because of his adoration for Sly. And Larry, as we'll get to in a little bit. By the way, interestingly enough, Prince became a Jehovah's Witness, apparently due to his time hanging out with Larry Graham. Well, perfect timing because we're going to talk about Mr. Graham right now as we get into the bass.

All right. The foundation of this song is this baseline. And it's very an important one because there's some innovation going on here in what Larry Graham, the bass. bass player is literally doing with his bass guitar, is adding rhythmic elements, which came from his experience being in a band with his mom. The two of them were, at the time, they started, they were a three-piece band. He was playing guitar, mom on piano, and there was a drummer. And then one day the drummer left. And they had to sort of fill in the rhythmic part that the drummer had been doing. And that meant he moved to bass and started playing using his thumb as a kick drum and

using his finger, plucking it, that bount, bomp, as a snare. So he innovates this use of his bass to get melody, out of absence of something else. That's right. I love it. Virtue of necessity. They didn't have the drums, so he had to be both. He had to be both.

And he filled in all the sonic content that was required. You had a full, with mom singing and playing piano. That was all you needed. So he brings the story, the story is that Sly comes down to see, it's recommended that he come check out this innovative bass player. Sly sees them on stage and he's like, I need this guy for my band. This is adding something new that I've never heard before. And that's exactly what I want, something new.

Right? So let's play the bass. My thumbs hurt just from listening to him. He's playing that for 15 minutes too. 15 minute jams. The man must have had a rock hard thumbs. And there's no breaks. He's just 15 minutes of that baseline.

I don't know how he did it, but that man is the man. Yeah. Shout out to Larry's thumbs. Shout out to Larry's thumbs and shout out to Larry's nephew Drake, right? Drake is. Yeah, that's technically what he says. And my uncle asking me where it's at. He could be talking about Larry Graham.

So, you know, started for the bottom. You could be talking about Larry Graham. Yeah, exactly. Aubrey Graham. Exactly. Let's get back into the song. We got more stems to listen to. Yes.

Let's get into the guitars. And this is actually another reason why this song is unusual. I mentioned vocally, it's less of the tradeoff thing that he was known for in that moment, especially. Also, there's no keyboard in this. You know, often there would be not just one, but even two keyboards. Rose would play keys, and so would he. But this song, it's two guitars.

And I'm actually not sure who's playing which guitar. In the footage, you'll see if they're playing it live. You will hear, you will see that Freddie is playing this first riff. So let's listen to what might be Freddy's riff, might just be what he played live. And it sounds like this. And meanwhile, here's the second guitar, which has got, it's just basically him playing a wah. And you'll hear a little bit of the vocal percussion. I think this might be sly both the guitar part and the vocal percussion.

Guitar number two. It's actually panned right in your headphones when you listen to the song. The guitars are panned very like extremely. So that was the left guitar. Here's the right guitar. So good. I never noticed that before. You never noticed the vocal part?

Yeah. I'm going to continue with that. He backs off for the chorus. Wow. What's fun about this part is that he, that falsetto voice that comes in and out sort of selects lines and then backs off and then comes in again. It's so spontaneous. And I can just kind of picture him live in the studio just like eyes closed, vibe and like this line.

This line. Yeah. And it also doesn't even sound like him, that other part that like, well, I could be wrong. Again, there's no like labeling on this stuff. And I haven't been able to like get, you know, the no, on the session, like who did what? Who did? I think part of it he likes to keep it like that.

Honestly, like, you know, there's been times where people, like, they'll be doing a new commercial or something like that, and they're like, we need to know who's on this song, who's singing and whatever. And his answer is we're all on the song, we're all doing everything. Because it's a family. And he wants everybody to be credited. And cut into the

financial side of it. That's really beautiful. It reminds me there's a story when they first started the band, Sly's mainly a guitar player, but Freddie is also a guitar player. So when they're discussing who should play what, Sly's just like, man, it's on you. You know how to play guitar.

It's your all learned keyboards. He knew them, but he wasn't great yet. So early version of the band, it's like he just gave that part to Freddie because he wanted his brother to feel comfortable and competent. Maybe he thought he was a better player too, but it speaks to the generosity you're talking about. Yeah, definitely.

And he has the kind of personality to really like to hone in on what that person is best at doing. And sometimes he'll see what he thinks is, like what you would be best at doing that you might not even see yet. So, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if that's part of what was happening as well. That's so cool. Is that something you've personally experienced where you can like, is there like a, you have a story where that he's done that with you?

Yeah. So I can't think of years right now, but sometime in the 2000s, he was doing some shows here and there like House of Blues and Anaheim and maybe one in Los Angeles as well. and then he went on a European tour, and he invited me to, like, be a part of performing. And I'm like, ooh, I get to perform. Okay, I'm going to be doing some, like, backup vocals or, like, whatever, right?

And he was like, okay, so I'm going to do, like, a break at this point, and I want you to come out and play one of the classical pieces you know on the piano. And I was like, like, record reverse. Like, you know, like, play some Chopin. Like, and literally, I was like, okay. So that's what I did at a number of shows. He would just introduce me and invite his daughter on. Yeah.

And at the time I really didn't get it, I was like, I don't think anybody's, like, I was kind of embarrassed. But now as I've gotten older, and I thought about myself, like, as a listener of music and appreciator of, like, iconic artists. For example, the other day, I went to go see Lauren Hill perform, and she brought her kids on stage. And I absolutely loved that. And I was just so happy to see, like, her daughter up there talking. and if her daughter had played a classical song on the piano, I would have loved that. You wouldn't have a booed?

No, I would not have booed. I'd be like, sing, do-up! No, no, yeah. He was so proud of you and he knew that you had a special talent and he wanted that to shine. Exactly. You would have been another background singer. And not a very good one either.

Yeah, so. I'm going to be laughing at sing do-up for a very long time. I'm still laughing at it. So let's talk a little bit about samples and interpolations. It should be said that Sly and the Family Stone are one of the most sampled and interpolated bands of all time. There's at least a thousand known samples, at least according to the great snitchery database, whosample.com. Wonderful resource and also the source of a lot of lawsuits. Who sampled formerly known as Who Snitch.

They should definitely rebrand. Actually, that's a good idea. Let's continue and let's start with the by far most prominent. most cleared, so legal, from this song in particular. This is Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation. And that comes from something we just heard, which was this. So we actually have the pleasure of talking to Jimmy Jam. Yeah, shout out to Jimmy Jam about this exact sample. Yeah. He's such the biggest fan of your dad. Like he would, this was one of these, it sounded like this is a circumstance where the goal was almost less about, oh, there's a cool break. Let's, you know,

It was more like, I want to put Sly in my music. I want to put Sly in this Janet song because he's such a big fan. And I love how you can draw a direct line from Sly and the Family Stone to Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis and Prince and so many of the people who came out of the Minneapolis. He recently told me the background of how he thought to put that sample in the song. Did he tell you guys about that? I think he did on the show. But please tell us. So he was working with Janet and they were kind of like rebranding her in a way, putting together a new album.

Yeah, for the Rhythm Nation album. exactly. And she wanted to have a song. I think that was like had a message and had like a feeling and an emotion to it. And so he's just like, okay, trying to think about like, what's the song going to be? And he was at lunch at a restaurant somewhere in Los Angeles and on the music just at the restaurant. The song comes on.

And just came on. Right? Thank you for that. You just came on. And then the guitar part came. And then he was like, that's it right there. Aha moment. So he raced back to the studio. And back then, you know, technology was different. So you had to kind of like, you couldn't loop things as easily or whatever.

You had to use the record. Yeah. Like line it up. Play it again. Exactly. So that's what he said. He had like a machine where he had that part looping from the Sly and the Family Stone song.

And he looped it for like five minutes and he played drums along to it for five minutes to create a track to start with for Janet. And then her, like, secret husband came in the room at the time. I can't remember what his name was. Is that Renee? I think so.

And then he goes, ooh, what is this? Yeah. And then he goes, I guess they already had the idea for the song Rhythm Nation or something like that, but he was like, is that Rhythm Nation? He goes, yeah.

And then, and then Janet was like feeling it and loving it. And then they made the song. Then Michael loved it so much. And he was like, I want a song like that too. And so then on the remix of Scream. Wow.

What's going to get to? On the remix of Scream, which was produced by Jimmy Jam, they use a different guitar part of the song. That's the same song. I didn't know that. And that's so funny because I was about to play that. And I was going to say, and Jimmy Jam loved that sample so much. He's like, I want to use it for another piece of work.

And I didn't. It was actually Michael who was like, I love this. A mutual love type of thing. Like Michael was like, I want that. Right, right. Yeah. So cool.

Here it is. Yeah. This is from the flight time remix of scream. It's called scream louder. Oh, you're right. You just use a different check of the main looks. Yeah. Yeah.

That's really amazing, right? That's so cool. Yeah. Great story. It's so funny that you just happened to run into him. Yeah. Well, it was when we both were interviewed the same day for the documentary that Kwe's doing about my dad.

Mm-hmm. And so we met in, like, the green room. And he told me that story. Which is called, thank you for letting me be yourself. I don't know what the documentary is going to be called. That's the memoir title. It's still being worked on. It's still, like, this is recent, it sounds like.

Yeah, yeah, it was this year. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to say one thing about these, the samples and the phenomenon of sampling and Sly being so sampled. And it's very similar, actually, to when we spoke to Jimmy Jam. He had a similar philosophy. There's a quote that I found in this wonderful book again where Sly talks about being

sampling. And he goes, I keep my ears open for songs that connect back to my music. I feel proud when I hear it echoing in what other people make. I had forgotten that Janet Jackson had used thank you for Rhythm Nation. And basically, when he heard it and was reminded of it, it evoked the era. It evoked the original performance of it.

And for him, it was appreciative of his work. So he was able to appreciate it in a whole new way, I think because of its reuse. Yeah, every time I've heard him be asked about people sampling his music, and how he feels about it. He always has like a positive response to it. I love that. And the one that I remember him saying to is like, yeah, go ahead and sample me and then

I'll sample you for sampling me. And it's kind of funny because that's actually what's happening now. Yeah. Like, you know, you have like songs that came out in the 90s, like R&B songs that were sampling songs from the 60s or whatever. Yeah. And then now there's new R&B artists who are sampling those 90s songs. Yeah.

And some people are like, oh, why? You know. And I'm like, that's what my dad was always saying. It's like a remake of the Wynens that I don't want to know, which itself has the Fugis in it, which itself has. Yeah. But that's so, I love that. We talk about the movie show all the time.

We love, we are a simple, safe zone. Oh, absolutely. And we love it. That to me is that's the progress of the culture. It's continuing to tell the story, but it's a little different this time. Yeah. And I think it's kind of reminds me of jazz, you know? Like you hear jazz improvisation and then they'll do like a quick nod to some other song.

And in jazz, it's not going to be like, an actual recorded sample because that's not like what the type of music is. It's live music, you know, in jazz. But it's the same idea. No, there was a word for that that you whispered. But I think that's another reason why, you know, I always go to jazz too, because you hear a song like Cherokee and then you realize that Charlie Parker did Coco, you know, but it's the same song.

And like, so the same song would go from Duke Ellington to Charlie Parker. Then maybe somewhere along the line, Alicia Heohama, was sampled from tribe called quest and then, you know, the next thing you know, Ty Dollar Sign is jumping on a song with it. So shout out to Ty Dollar Sign. We want you on the show. And part of what makes it cool is that as you

get older maybe and sort of learn, you hear one song and it connects you to the other one. And then you go back in time and find the origin. Oh, yeah. And then you are therefore connected to other, the sampling basically chain connects you to other artists and other eras and other genres in wonderful ways. If we tried to isolate every song

so it was own island that didn't have any interpolations or any references, like what's the, point of that. Like, I think that's a very, like, strict and unnecessarily strict way of, of, considering something to be original or creative. I think originality is more expansive than that. And I think it kind of tells the story and it's like an homage to where that artist came from or whoever they're working with or to show that, like, there's a tissue between, like, music of, like, there's, music is always a continuation of, like, what's come before. It doesn't just come out of a black hole. Right. Right. Yeah. And it's explicit when it's... Well, technically, I think that some

NASA scientist said that there is a sound. The black hole generates a sound. But there's just that one song. It's one note. One note. Black hole, get creative. Stop taking all the light. So we're coming towards the end.

And we just want to ask you this. So much is written and said about your father. Is there one fact that you think you know about him that you can share with us today? One fact. Good Lord. One fact on one song. Oh, on a song. It can be anything.

It can be like, you know, the man loves Rocky Road ice cream. Like, it can be anything. It doesn't be song related. Oh, not at all. You need to break some news here. World Star Exclusive. Let's do this. One thing.

One thing is tough. Okay. One thing that I, that I like to think of. And it reminds me Diallo of like, like what we were talking about earlier when you were saying your dad is on the couch, watching basketball. He liked Miller Genuine Draft. Yeah, just a regular dude, right?

Just a dude. And like, I spent a lot of time not really knowing my dad and kind of just knowing what I would get from the media and sort of thinking of him as this like really important person that was just like, you know, highly regarded and wore cool clothes and wrote amazing lyrics. But if you spend like a day with Sly Stone, he's really, he is all that, but he's also just a regular dude. His favorite, like, movie category is Westerns. Wow. Like the nudie suits. That makes so much sense, though. The nudie cost of you.

He's an old black man. Yeah, no, I was going to say, that's that generation. That generation loves Westerns. I totally, I know exactly what that is. They love Westerns. And, like, he had a birthday recently. And I was like, okay, we go and get you whatever food you want. What do you want, you know, to eat?

And he's like, I want a pizza with everything on it. Like pineapple. Like that was what he wanted. You know what I mean? It wasn't like, like, you know, some like, I don't know, like a collective crazy thing. I mean, this is exactly what I wanted to know. We love part of the thing that we love about the show is I feel like we, we humanize

the music. Just by letting you hear the individual parts, it doesn't seem like this thing, you know, this way off in the distance that can never be. being repeated again. Yeah, I think it's we put our artists on a pedestal. It's life affirming to know that these people. It's life affirming to think of these things as having been created. And I feel

the same way about the people who create them. It's in a weird way it's reassuring to know that they're people like us. You know, as as brilliant and talented and one of a generation they may be, there is something that brings them back to being like us. Would you say that they are

everyday people? You have that one in the world. I walked right into it. I love that he wanted a pizza with everything. I love that. Yes. I also want to add that I think that he has one of the best laughs of all time. Really?

I think that in addition to his voice being a beautiful vocal voice, his radio voice is amazing. He's got the best laugh. It must be so gratifying. What does it sound like? I don't know. It's kind of like, nah. It's just like, very cute.

What makes him laugh? Does he have like a favorite, like, comedy or a comedian or something like that? He does like to watch comedy. Kevin Hart, by any chance? Yeah, a big fan of Kevin Hart now. I don't know. Yeah, I feel like whatever you think, like, would make an old black man from the South laugh. I know a few.

I know. You know, like. Yeah, I mean, you know, Richard Pryor. Yeah, yeah. They were friends for a reason. You know what I mean? They're so cute together on that. You got to watch that clip.

Go to YouTube and watch the clip of the two of them. Oh, you've seen it. Yeah, yeah, of course. Is that Dick Cavett? No, that's my... He does a lot of laughing in that one with Richard Pryor. He does so much. And what's so cute about their dynamic is that it sounds like Richard Pryor is trying to be like,

can you chill out a little bit? Can you just... And he's like, nope, I'm not going to chill out at all. I'm going to give you everything. The fool's lie. He's like, I brought the comedian. I'll go have some fun. And Richard Pryor is trying to be like the straight host of the show or something.

I don't know. They like totally change. What is it say about Sly that when he's on stage with Richard, Richard's like, oh, I better play the straight man. I better go super straight. Novina, thank you so much for joining us. Before we say goodbye, where can our listeners find you online and listen to your show? Oh, yes.

Well, I'm Novina Carmel, and you can find me on the internet there, N-O-V-E-N-A-C-R-M-E-L. My dad gave me my first name Novina because his lucky number is nine. Novina means nine days of three. prayer. Oh, beautiful. Fun little tidbit right there. You wanted to name me Nueve. Initially, my mom was like, how about Novena?

So again, Novina Carmel. And my baby right now is co-hosting Morning Becomes Eclectic on KCRW. That's right. Monday through Friday, 9 a.m. to noon. You can listen globally. That's what I was going to say. Yeah. On the website, right?

We're here. Yeah, we're here in Los Angeles. But a lot of people listen from all over the world. It's a morning show, but sometimes people say, we listen to you with our dinner, you know, like in Europe. whatever it is. Somebody just email me today from New Zealand saying thanks for the music. Is it just KCRW.org? KSRW.com. Yeah. And there's an app that makes it super easy.

You can revisit past shows from the archives. Which is helpful to me because half the time, I'm like, what song is this? And you don't want to crash looking at your phone to try and figure out what song it is. So, yes, look for the song on your own time. Yeah. And there's so much kinship with what we do. You know, we love telling the story behind the songs and connecting songs with each other. So it's such a pleasure to be here with you and do something similar, but in a totally different context and with your point of view.

So thank you so much for having you. Luxury, help me in this thing. I'm producer, DJ, and songwriter, luxury. I'm actor, writer, director, and sometimes DJ, Della Ruh. And this has been one song. We will see you next time.