One Song - Tears for Fears' "Head Over Heels"

Episode Date: April 25, 2024

This time on One Song Diallo Riddle and LUXXURY not only tackle a song that, arguably, possesses the ultimate accolade: It is Diallo’s favorite song to sing at karaoke. “Head Over Heels” by Tears for Fears is not the British synth pop group’s biggest hit – that would be “Mad World”, “Sowing the Seeds of Love”, or “Shout” – but Diallo makes a strong case for why there’s no better song to belt out at 2am in a karaoke booth. Join the guys as they break open the stems and walk through the song’s unforgettable melody and haunting lyrics in a special episode that was shot in the Hartbeat podcast studio after a sustainable makeover.  As part of the makeover, soy-based products were used, including chairs upholstered with the soy-based material produced by Modern Meadow, wall mounted photographs printed with soy-based ink, and upcycling a drum into a coffee table with wood supplied by HempWood, which contains soy-based resin. This episode was produced with the support of U.S. Soy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Visit BetMGM casino and check out the newest exclusive. The Price is Right Fortune Pick. BetMDM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2,600 to speak to an advisor.

Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Luxury, my man, what's up? Diallo, my friend, how are you today? How are things going? Things are great. It's a gray day. It is a great day. A little overcast. But I will say that it is bright and colorful in the world of music. I'm glad we're talking about the weather, a little foreshadowing, of the song we're going to talk about today.

Very nice. Exactly. I see what you did there. So in the introduction, we usually start with a few superlatives. And today's episode is no different. But this superlative is particularly superlatively special. Because this time on one song, we are talking about Diahliolati. Follow riddles number one, all-time greatest karaoke song. That's right. It's my favorite karaoke song. And honestly, we should just stop right there

because there is no greater accolade or honor for a song to be built it out by yours truly in a Koreatown. I've seen it. It's a beautiful site to behold. 2 a.m. They're kicking me out. But I'm like, hey, I got one more song. I got one more left to me. And it's a belter and you belt it.

You belt, belt, belt, belt. I do belt. So the band we're talking about today had two mega number one hits from their second album. That's right. In America, everybody wants to roll the world and shout. We're both chart toppers. But this song, the one we're talking about today, was not.

So why are we talking about it? Because even if it's not the band's biggest hit, it's an anthem in its own right. After its initial release in 1985, it got a new lease on life and found a fresh new audience when it's featured in the movie Donnie Darko 2001. And I'd point out, that music video, I mean, it is a classic 80s music video. This is one of those songs where the video is almost as important in the song, right? If you haven't seen it recently, go back and watch it. Stuck in my brain.

You've got a sexy librarian. I'm so in love with her, by the way. A dude in a World War II gas mask, and a chimp in a Red Sox uniform, which, you know, he would be right at home in Fenway Park, wouldn't he? Absolutely. Green Monster, that's the one thing I know about baseball. Well, there you go. So you come here for music facts, you stay for Luxuries One baseball. Don't come here for baseball facts.

That's a bad idea. If you haven't guessed it already, this time on one song, we are talking about Tears for Fears, and the song is Head Over Heels. I'm actor, writer, director, and sometimes DJ, Diallo Riddle. And I'm producer, DJ, and songwriter luxury, aka the guy who talks about interpolation on TikTok. Oh my gosh. You did not tell me you were going to do that. I'm so proud of myself for frankly thinking to bring in the recording of the official

interpolation whisper. And today we are somewhere new. If you're watching this on YouTube or on social media, you'll see our brand new set. But for the benefit of our listeners on Sirius XM or on the podcast, I will describe it to you. We are inside an eco-friendly sustainable studio that has been designed for us by our friends at the United Soybean Board. That's right. No more studio built out of trees from the rainforest for us. Absolutely. We've gone sustainable.

It's about time, too. By the way, these prints on the wall, for those watching at home, they're made with soy ink. This chair I'm sitting in, believe it or not, is made from soy leather. And all the vintage items in here, like this boom box, are all repurposed. Some actually repossessed from my Uncle Carl. So this is all sustainable stuff. It's so cool. We're really excited to be here.

All right. So tears for fears, let's start here. At the top we mentioned that this is your favorite karaoke song. It is. Why? What makes it such a fun song to sing? Man, it's got so many fun parts. And, you know, I've struggled with this persistent cough situation.

I'm on a million antibiotics all winter long. I can't do it right now. But the thing I like about is that he goes from full voice to falsetto. Yes, we're going to talk about that big time. Also, like, it's so smart. I mean, like, this is usually. It's usually a pejorative. It's a smart song. Like the lyrics, there are certain songs you just want to get up there and you want to sing

lyrics like, and I dream that I'm a doctor. You just like those kind of things. It's like, you know, animal strike here you's poses. Like you're like, who writes that? Yeah, that one's weird. I think there was like a premium on amazing lyrics in this period of the 80s and we're going to get into that. Every time you sing like a Duran Duran song, you're like, what is happening in this song? No idea what these lyrics mean.

Where were you when you first heard? Yeah, this song is 1985. So I'm in seventh grade, and this song, you know, it's funny because Cheers for Fears up until this moment, their second album, they're a super angst-ridden band. Their first record is called The Hurting. There's a song called Suffer Little Children, Mad World. Like everything about the band is about- Pale Shelter.

Pale Shelter. There's angst, there's anxiety, there's childhood trauma. Luckily, I did not suffer that myself, but I felt the feelings of the songs. This song comes out, I love the band, and it's expressing this new emotion for the band, which is love. And in seventh grade, you know, you're starting to flower, you're starting to not be. you're like, oh, I hate girls anymore, that vibe starts to go away. You're having your first school dances and stuff. So this song really cuts to the chase for me in that way, for my seventh grade self.

Like, okay, like, okay, there's Jeannie Heath, you know, we're slow dancing to Alphaville Forever Young. And, you know, then this song comes on, we're dancing. And we're singing, we're belting, by the way. You hear that, Ginny Heath, you missed out. If you're out there. You missed out on it. Never forget. I also think it's interesting that you bring up the emotion because to me, you know, how many times have

I sung this song. When we were preparing for this, the first question that was asked was, what is the song about? And I was like, I think he's head over heels in love. It's amazing to me that a good pop song can be so catchy and so emotive that you can sing these lyrics that seem like really smart lyrics and never actually take a step back and say, well, what does it mean? I think that's actually a sign of really good art.

Yes, absolutely, yeah. So Tears and Fears are a band that we're both really excited to talk about. luxury, can you walk us through a history of the band? All right. Tears for Fears are from Bath, England. It's Roland Orzabal and Kurt Smith. They meet as teenagers, roughly 13, 14 years old. Roland is already writing songs, and he needs a singer, because he himself does not feel like he is a good enough singer. So they become friends, and Kurt has been a singer. He sings in the choir. He loves singing. I've heard him in an interview say he doesn't like talking very much at that age. He, like singing is his only means of expression.

He's a very, like, quiet guy. So it's perfect. It's a perfect fit. Roland's had already, a genius songwriter, Kurt has this beautiful voice. Together they start writing songs. And actually Roland teaches them to play bass eventually because they get their first opportunity to be in a band. And this is around 78 or so when they're, I think only 17 or 18. They're very young. They join a band called Graduate. So they're in this band graduate and they ended up, they end up quitting. And before they start their own band, though, they're briefly session musicians for a band called Neon, which also... I love this story. Well, they also, they're only briefly in this band They're like, no, we can do better.

And they split. And the band actually splits into two. And Roland and Kurt form their own band. Tears for Fears for Fears. And the other guys formed naked eyes. Which is another great band out of this second British invasion. I mean, like, there's so many groups from this period. And you just get the sense, like, I heard somebody recently say, like, England is like a prison where, like, everybody, was that you?

Like, it was like. Wasn't me. It was like everybody in the UK music scene kind of knows each other. So it's really easy for the guys from Naked Eyes. Naked Eyes does always dare to remind me, which is promises, promises. And then these other guys go out and form tears or fears. And they're all listening to OMD. They're all listening to...

That's right. They're all listening to... Gary Newman, they're all listening to the same... Can I just say... Real friends of mine know this. For years, I tried to form a DJ collective called The Friends Electric. Because I love the Gary Newman song, Our Friends Electric. Well said about Naked Eyes and a perfect opportunity to talk about the phenomenon of the

synthi British duo, which is kind of happening in this moment, because, you know, it's not the first time we have synthi duos, Sparks, I would argue, with their version Marauder produced amazing album number one in heaven, is maybe the first time we're getting synth pop with a couple of guys in that sort of top of the pops level. And by the way, a huge influence in England. Sparks, one of my favorite bands. Didn't really make a dent here. Sparks from America having a huge effect across the pond. I think that's more effect of their timing sparks. Unfortunately, I feel like if they come along four years later, they would have been able to ride the MTV wave. Because a lot of these groups, I think I saw were a flog of Siegel, they were like,

this group would not have blown up without that video for Iran and MTV. That's right. And Sparks, they do finally break America for a minute when they put out cool places with Jane Weedland from the Gogo's. Remember that song? So the Synthi British duo Soft Cell, we've got Wham, we've got Tears or Fears, we've got Heaven 17, we've got OMD, who you mentioned. We've got Yazoo. Yeah. these groups are two dudes. It's Wham. Synthi British?

Yeah, there are a lot. Naked eyes and tears for fish. And later on we get Pet Shop Boys. We get erasure. We even get gold frapped. Two people. Two people. It's the Synthi duo.

So the duo energy is its own thing and we're going to get into that. Because when there's two people creating together, as you and I know, and as you with your partner, it's like you are collectively doing something that the world sees as a unit unified. But what happens behind the scenes

is a push and pull and a come and go that's going to come up in this story. lot. So in 1981, they're done doing the session musician thing or being in other people's bands. They start their own band. Initially, their first band name was History of Headaches, by the way. Oh my gosh. Which they did one better, but barely by calling it Cheers for Fears. It's one of those names I think you get used to, but like, that's kind of a crazy name, too. It is better than history of headaches. It's a little bit better than history of headaches. Nobody wants that LP. It is a little bit better than history of headaches. So,

1989, they take a cue from their shared love of the psychotherapist named Arthur Janov's book called Prisoners of Pain, which is about primal scream. It's about... Another great group. Primal Screen, you're right. Another great group. But confronting your fears to eliminate them. That's the whole premise of not just the title,

but their first record is like really just letting it out. And by the way, shout, shout, let it all out. Yeah, yeah, I heard it. This whole band's kind of early premise is about like this bottled up British thing coming out through their music. It's really beautiful. It's kind of a British thing, isn't it?

It's kind of a British thing. They're like all like... Stern. They're like, I'm blending it out. The guy's name is Kurt. They put out their first record, The Hurting in 1983. It's got four massive hits on it. I should say it starts with Suffer the Children, which is maybe the least known.

But then you've got Pale Shelter, Mad World and Change, which to this day are songs that stand the test of time. Mad World, by the way, it's Kurt singing. Within the band, they have a dynamic of deciding from song to song who the singer should be. Roland finally kind of comes out of his shell after thinking he's not a singer and realizes he's got a very rich. he's got the belty voice and Kurtz got kind of the more melancholy voice. Yeah. So from song to song throughout the band's career, they kind of decide between the two of them who's got the right voice for the song.

I mean, it's so ironic that Roland doesn't start off as a singer because, you know, my first exposure to the band is probably shout. Yeah. And like, it's like, who's this dude who's yelling? Who's got confidence? He's got confidence. He's like, who was that dude? You know what I mean?

Like, not to create a hierarchy within the group, but like between that and everybody wants to rule the world. and all the songs from the big chair. Songs from the big chair. Yeah. You know, to me, that guy was Tears for Fears. You could have told me, oh, that guy, because there are four members of the group at this point.

Well, it's interesting you say that. We're going to get into how many members of the group are, members of the group per se, and how many members of the group are in the videos in on tour, but that's about it, and then they get cut out of royalties and publishing and all that kind of good stuff. We're definitely going to get into that in a minute. Okay, so let's get into the song, Head Over Heels.

And before we get into the stems, let's talk about the composition of the song, Head Over Hills. How did Roland and Kurt write this song? Okay, so the origin of this song is really interesting because the song, by the way, just the details, comes out in June 1985 on their second album, Songs from the Big Chair. Chris Hughes is the producer, the title of the album comes, again, with this, like, darkness of all their lyrics and titles. And it comes from this movie Sybil about a schizophrenic woman whose comfort zone is the big chair. So this is a song about sinking comfort.

you know, in things. Didn't know that relationship. Yeah, right. As we mentioned at the top of the show, there are two number one hits on this record in the U.S. It is the album that breaks them big. Massive hits. But this is not one of them,

although it did go to number three in the U.S. Just number three. What a bunch of losers. But head over heels actually started life as the B side of a single from 1983. Pale Shelter came out, and on the flip side was a song called We Are Broken, which I'll play you a clip from right now.

And you'll probably recognize the bit that they were like, this is pretty good, let's use this. Let's extend this maybe. This is We Are Broken by Tears for Fears. So this is a single off of their previous album. This is from the hurting, right. And it just has this B-side, which I used to play.

When I used to DJ, and I didn't know the backstory at the time, but when I used to DJ at the Standard Hotels, I used to work a longtime list of shows, I was a director of music and talent at the Standard Hotels. I hired the DJs, I hired the box models who went into the box behind the front desk. when I heard this, I just thought it was a weird sort of like interpulation of themselves. Right.

Weird, I can't even say the word without whispering now. Wait, hold on. You mean interpolation. Thank you very much. Yes. That's what I'm here for. We're going to have to talk about the episode. But I was like, oh, that's weird how they incorporated head over heels into this song.

I didn't realize that head over heels did not exist yet. That's super cool. To me, that's like, you know, that's like the birth of something. that's going to be really important. Why is the first thing that pops in my mind, Amazing Spider-Man, issue number 25? What?

Mary Jane Watson appears in the last panel of that issue, and you have no idea that she's going to become a major character in his life for the rest of the comic book. And then when you go back and read it, then it's like, oh my God, she was there. That's her first panel. That's her first panel. Nerds across the world unite. I had no idea that you have this.

We're bringing in comic books. Is there a whole world in your, do you have, like, Oh, that's a whole other brain. That's a whole other podcast. One issue. How does it never come up? It'll never come up again. Episode 31.

Moving on. It's really cool to hear that that's like the genesis of something that's going to be really, really special. Why does that song even exist? Was it just a throwaway B-side? So it's a throwaway B-side. Usually B-sides were throwaways. You don't want to waste a song on the B-side.

That would be, you know, the album, the single itself. Unless you're something like Prince B-sides are all worthy of some album somewhere. It doesn't mean they're bad. It just means that there was a decision made. to like not waste it because it's not going to be the focus of what they said to radio and all that stuff. So it's a song that exists and they start playing it live and the evolution of it becoming its own song. Yeah. Which is really interesting because it's kind of... It's like New Order and Blue Monday. They're like they needed a song that they could play. Yeah. And this is a little bit of that.

That's right. They're kind of filling up their live set because they only have one album. So they only have like whatever, a certain number of songs and like sometimes you need more content on stage. It's crazy. Sometimes the filler. just reaches a new level just if you have your ears open for it. Absolutely. So they start playing it live. They're touring for The Hurting, that album. And what starts to happen on tour is it begins to take shape as its own song.

So you can actually watch footage from 1983 where they are already playing what we now know, as fans of Tears for Fears know, is this string of songs where it goes broken into head over heels. And then it has this sort of outro thing. They're already doing that live in 1983, way before the album comes out.

So this was actually the first song written four songs from the big chair because they had figured out on stage just how to translate this B-side extended into its own song. Oh, I love that. And just one more thing about it, they actually, the band, interestingly, based on what we've been saying already about the band's history with the Janov and the primal scream and this being a love song, the band initially didn't like the song. They were like, this is a good song, but it isn't really us.

They were confused by it. So I found a quote from Roland Orzavall, the lead singer. who said, head over heels was tough because we were making sort of quite advanced electronic music. And then this pop song comes along. It's like, well, what are we going to do with this? They didn't have a clue what to do with the song. I love that. I love the fact that even they weren't quite sure what it was.

It's also weird to hear them talk about. This is good, but it's a pop song. But it's not a hard-hitting, electronic underground hit, like, shout. Right. Or everybody rules the world. Like, it's weird to hear them say that this is a pop. Because even looking back at the first album, yeah, it's really easy. for the time, but there's some great pop writing. It's pop writing with like some darkness and

melancholy, which is, again, we sort of mentioned a lot of these synthi duos, like Gary Newman's very much, right? A lot of these artists. When they first started putting out singles from the herding, they were compared to Joy Division and like sort of darker bands. They were sort of goth adjacent. That wasn't the word at the time. No, no, no, these were darker artists. And then they started because... I mean, look at the album art. It does... It is kind of bleak. And then when there started to be articles about the band in their first videos and they were good looking, I think it's interesting to see the old British press started to turn on them. They're like, oh, these guys are another wham.

A bunch of pretty boys from Baugh. A bunch of pretty boys from Ba'ath. And meanwhile, the lyrics are super dark. But that gets us to this song. That gets us to Head Over Heels. It is their first big love song. And it is the beginning of the breakthrough, like kind of next chapter for the band. I love that.

So we've set the stage. Two boys from Ba'ath. Both are ready to make it big. with their blend of quirky lyrics, big choruses, and weird music videos. After the break, we'll be in over our heads with head over heels. Welcome back to one song.

Luxury, I just want to be alone with you and talk about the weather. Okay, I see what you did there. Okay, in all seriousness, I'm so excited to hear these stems on this song I've heard so many times. Luxury, where do you want to start? I'm so excited to get into these stems.

There's so much, so much deliciousness in this song. It's a very meticulously created song and produced. But before I get to that, I alluded earlier about the sort of unsung members of the band. So it's a duo, but this band would not exist without a couple of other people. One in particular is I want to give Ian Stanley his flowers. So Ian Stanley is sort of the unsung third member of the band from early days. Okay. It was Ian Stanley, who was, by the way, if you don't know who that is, in the video for head over heels.

He's the kind of good-looking guy with a leather jacket who does the, like, silly keyboard solo with one finger. So memorable. We'll play you that keyboard solo in a second. but Ian Stanley. But she is not playing, to be clear. I do believe, I think he is playing. He is the keyboardist in this song? So it's a little difficult to know for sure.

Okay. That's a perfect way into the song. Lots of Rashomon going on here. He said, she said. I've heard a couple of recent interviews with Ian Stanley where you can tell he's being so diplomatic because I think it was challenging for him to be the third member of a duo.

Sure. So Ian Stanley is also from Bath and he meets the boys when they're teenagers. It turns out that he has his own recording studio and in 1980, 81, 82-ish, having access to these devices, like a lindrum and Roland Juno synthesizers. Yeah, these were not everywhere.

Now everything's on your laptop, everybody comes in the studio with about eight to buy. And having it in your house is also like, that's a bonus too. You're not paying for studio time. So the combination of Roland and Kurt. Now every home in Atlanta comes with a home studio. It's mandatory.

It's just like having a kitchen. Yeah, no, it's cool. He had the studio. He had the equipment. In Boff, English. in circa 1981, 1982, Ian Stanley shows up in their lives at the perfect time where they've got this batch of amazing songs that they're writing, but they need help producing it to get a record deal. So Ian comes into the picture, he's got the studio, he's got the equipment, and he helps

program certain things like on Mad World and Change. He's got the ability to have 16th notes. So he's the one helping their sound come together. The songwriting, solid, it's there, but Tears for Fears, as we know it is songwriting, its vocals. it's also synthesizers and drum machines have sound. So he's kind of the third, he's a co-writer. He gets co-writing credits on a handful of songs. And that first record in particular is mostly recorded in his studio.

So he's a very important person we'll talk about in a minute. The second person I want to mention is Chris Hughes, the producer of this record. Former drummer for Adam and the Ants, by the way. Oh, cool. And he co-writes everybody wants to rule the world on this record as well. He is the unsung fourth member. They're both a little bit sung, a little unsung. I guess I just mentioned them in this context

because I found this quote in particular from Hughes who describes the sessions. He gives us some insight into how this record was made, how this song was made. So Hughes, this is a quote from producer Chris Hughes. It was essentially Roland, Ian Stanley, and I as a three piece. So basically the songwriting sessions, Kurt was there as an important kind of counterpart for Roland,

I think as a person, as a friend for many years, as a trusted confidant. But as Kurt himself says in another issue, interview, he's really doing 20 to 30% of everything musical about Cheers for Fears. It's about 70 to 80% Roland across the board. At this point, yeah. So I thought that was really interesting to kind of get that insight, because you just don't know what's happening behind the scenes with the duo.

Everything seems like both of them did all of it. So the core team making this record and making head over heels is Roland, Ian Stanley, and Chris Hughes. Even though I point out that if Kurt is doing 20%, and there are four guys there. Oh, it's important 20%. I mean, like, okay, so he's not doing that extra 5%. That doesn't sound like a slacker. This is no shade on Kurt.

And Chris Hughes, by the way, to be fair, is very careful when he says that to make sure he's recognizing Kurt's God-given talents, which are massive. Kurt would come in. He would be involved with vocals and other ideas. He would sing, but it wasn't the core of the ideas. The core of the ideas was Roland Ian and I. That's the quote from him. So I just thought that was really helpful to kind of paint the picture of how these incredible iconic songs get made. I made it almost halfway through the episode before I said iconic.

What kind of prize do I get for that? Is there any kind of reward? I think you get a vinyl copy of our theme song. All right, we're both drummers. I'd love to get into some drum stems. Let's talk about the drums. So, you know what's funny about this song? It wasn't until I listened to The Stems,

Isolid, which I'll play for you in a second, that it dawned on me that after years of watching the video where Manny Elias, their touring drummer, is playing the drums, and he's got these really iconic fills, which I also play for you in a second. It wasn't until I listened to the stems that I realized that it's not a live drum track. a programmed ling drum.

I never noticed that until I listened. So let me play that for you. I think to my ears, I was like, that sounds like some drum machine. Yeah, they're both credited on the album. So Manny Elias does get credited with drums, but I think that maybe on this song in particular, I think that's because there's that Coda.

I'm going to talk about the arrangement in a second, by the way. That's its own thing. But at the end of the song, it goes into this other song, which is, I think, taken from a live performance, which you can find on YouTube. It's exactly the same. So technically he's on the song, but it's just at the end.

The rest of it's a lindrum, and let's hear that right now. And by the way, that's the dead giveaway right there. When you hear that da-da-da-da, and all of those snare hits are exactly the same, that's the dead giveaway that it's a programmed drum machine. It's just volume that's going up, but the sound itself is identical the entire way across. So that was the clue that I was like, oh, wait a second. One thing I need to point out for all of the sems we're about to hear is how meticulously crafted this song is. as a song, the song writing,

but also the little choices and decisions about what happens in each part where it's really beautiful. Here's an example in the drums where that beat goes through the whole thing, it's a drum machine beat, but there'll be these little tiny variations like this one here,

that little thing with a hi-hat, and it matches what's happening in the strings, I'm kind of jumping ahead for a minute. You know, there's that little string pizicato thing, which I'll play. Oh, one of the best parts of the entire song. Everyone loves that. When you hear them together, you can hear that that little drum programming thing was done to kind of have a counterpoint just for that tiny string

moment. So together they sound like this. It's just this little tiny moment. This entire song has a lot of visual things. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like there are just little points that come in. They don't do them twice. Right. They only have them once. But they're just there. And they're perfect. And perfectly put, because that's one thing in 1980, 485, when the song is being written, to be doing what you just described with drum machines and synthesizers to be making those little variations is more challenging because as we sort of alluded to in the New Order episode, you're programming the entire machine, you don't have a computer screen. It's much harder to do. You've got this tiny little window. You have to kind of resequence the whole thing. It's a whole world that is

far more challenging than what we're used to now. It's a mad world. I will say, is that a violin? I'm pretty sure that's a pherolite. I'm almost positive that's... What is a feralite? So a Fairlight is an early sampler slash synthesizer. It's one of the more relatively affordable, because before that there was this enclavear, which was very expensive. But it's still pretty expensive. My understanding is that Ian Stanley possessed all these machines,

and he had a little bit of money, a little family money. So he was able to afford these devices like the Farolite. So when I listen to this, here's that Pizzicado. I'm nearly positive. They didn't hire any violent players because they're not credited. It's possible, but I also know that you can do that on a Farallite. That's super cool. pretty cool, right? That's one of those little things that they threw in there that just,

it takes something that was already like at a 90 to a 95. To maybe, and we might even get to a 99 by the time we're done. Oh, we're going to get to 103. I think they got extra credit on this one. Let me just play a couple of those sick, sick fills. Like I said, whenever all these years I've been watching this video, if you ever watch this video with me, I will not be able to restrain myself from playing along to these fills that Manny Elias is doing visually, but they are programmed. All right, here's sweet fill number one. Probably programmed by Ian Stanley and not performed by Manny Elias.

I mean, to my ears, that could be a live drummer overdub, but I'm pretty sure it's not, because all of the sounds like the kick and sound. What part of the song is that? Can you play what part of that song comes in? Here's the context of that. That's at the NAA outro. And he does one more of those.

Again, I'm just going to have to do it in the room. I'm sorry, I can't help myself. I just love. Drum feels like that. We're going to have to talk about you restraining yourself. If that's what I think it is, which is, I think, a Lindrum programming that fill. That is, somebody took a week. It's not quite a week, but it took a long time to program those hits with such intricacy and to make it sound like a real drummer.

Or it's Mani Elias and just the credits don't reflect. I think the big picture about the drums of this song is that, you know, like whether they're just turning up the volume or, you know, it's a fill, it's always building up to the next thing that's about to happen. That sounds like one-on-one, but a lot of people don't do it. No, but those are the little details that really get your blood going. And that's what tricked me all these years into thinking that it wasn't a drum machine is that there are so many intricate little parts that it sounds like a human playing it. Let's talk about the bass. Let's talk about the bass.

The bass line might be my favorite part of the song, and I say that. We've talked about this. Immediately think of 30 other things I also love, but this baseline is something special. This is Kurt Smith on bass. He's a really talented bass player. He plays bass live too. I think it's a Steinberger bass. It's got this very distinctive 80 sound, which is very trebally.

And this bass line is in the verse. I'm going to play it isolated, and then I'll play it for you along with the vocal. So that it makes its context. Something very interesting happens, and I'll explain in just a minute. You know what's crazy? It sounds a lot like The Pretenders. What is that song? Like, I went back to Ohio or whatever.

It sounds a little bit like that baseline, which I would have never drawn a connection between. You know, it's interesting. I did find a connection in an interview. They talk about what it was inspired by. And tell me if you hear the connection. Yeah. Yep, I totally hear the connection. So it was inspired by David Byrne and the Talking Heads.

That's right. Take Me to the River. It's inspired by Take Me to the River. That's Tina Weymouth on bass, playing the Talking Heads cover of the Al Green song. You know what people should do if you have some time is go on YouTube. I think it's still on YouTube. you might have to have Pecot Plus, but go watch Talking Hands perform

Take Me to the River on SNL. It's one of the greatest performances that you'll ever see. That's a band. It's an insanely good performance. Like every year my love for them just grows with such a special band. I mean, like, love you like I do.

I mean, like, my mind is kind of blown. Now I'm thinking about my city was gone by the pretenders, head over heels by Tears for Fears, and take me to the river by Talking Hands. There's a through line between those baselines. That's really cool.

And I'm just looking. That song came up. I mentioned you could probably find some obscure Muddy Waters song. Right. That walking bass line. Well, jazz. In fact, and all of them. The bass, like walking bass lines, you can find a million jazz songs.

That idea. That's a really cool connection. That is a cool connection, right. I agree. You were going to play the bass stem with the vocal end. So now I'm going to show you how that baseline is mirroring what Roland is playing. And we're going to talk more specifically in a minute about, we'll just talk about the vocals on its own. So, yeah, don't think this is us giving you your feel of the vocals.

No, no, no. More vocals coming. There'll be more vocals later. So rhythmically, he's mirroring, and some of the melody notes even literally are mirroring that's being sung, and then going back to not mirroring it in this incredibly special way. It's counterpoint that then turns into matching, then back to counterpoint. This honestly becomes chicken or the eggs to me. Like, did they have the vocal first and then the baseline, or the baseline then the vocal?

I can't we can't know for sure. Yeah, we can know for sure. Unless rolling, unless you're listening. Kurt, Ian, Annie. And then in the chorus, the bass line is this, which again, I'm gonna do it without the vocals and then with, and it's, again, part of the magic of the interplay. Again, this is the core duo of the band, vocals and bass.

Here is just the bass line in the chorus. And now I'll play it for you. That really needs context, because that sounds like a completely different song. Here it is with the voice. vocal and you can hear how he's sort of bobbing and weaving around the vocal. There's so many like wonderful decrescendos in there. You're just like, holy shit, this is a lot of stuff coming together.

A lot of stuff coming together. A lot of parts that are interweaving and coming in and out and responding to each other in just the right way. We talked about like the funky pockets with like Stevie Wonder's many superstition clavinet parts. It's doing a very similar thing. It's finding a place if it were like one single. 16th note over or one half step higher, it wouldn't work. Wouldn't work.

I love that. Perfect interplay of parts. Should we talk about the guitars? Let's play some guitar parts. This is Roland on guitar. He is a really great guitar player, and you'll hear some of his interesting, intricate parts as well as his like wailing soloy parts. All right, so here's Roland's guitar melody in the intro. You know, there's a word that we don't use this often. Okay. It's not iconic. How did you know? Oh boy. It's an iconic guitar riff right there. It's an iconic guitar riff.

The second, let me tell you, as a person as a veteran of the karaoke wars, when that guitar comes in, people are like, oh, ooh, like, people are like, get happy. All the 40-year-olds really come out of their shell. That was a great guitar riff. There's probably some other guitar moments that I'm not even thinking of it. Absolutely. It's also important to just pause for a second.

Remember, these guys are ostensibly a synthi keyboard duo. What starts to happen when they're live on tour for that first record is they're starting to integrate live instruments. So we have Mani Elias on drums, and in the recorded version of this song, there's a outro that's very live band. They're kind of jamming and you hear the live drums do crazy fills. Also, guitar. Guitar

in a synth pop band, at the time, they were making a real choice to say, you know, we're going to have guitars. Because Gary Newman, philosophically, a lot of these bands are like, we are anti-gutarch. We don't use guitars. We're buying keyboards. So not only are they playing, not only is that a guitar, an electric guitar, but it's playing

like a kind of American sounding like, you know, whee, like wailing. It could be a journey, you know, Neil Sean kind of part. Don't you dare bring Journey into this. But it's interesting because that's a real choice they made. And I think it came out of a little bit swinging for the fences on this record. This was a record where they swung and hit big time in terms of making it big in America. But guitars were something that Americans liked and needed in their pop music. So I think that was a real conscious choice to add it.

And anyway, that's this incredible counter melody to the primary one, which we'll be hearing in a second, that legendary piano, Ostenato. But first, let's play a little more guitar for you. Can I say without context? Yeah. That sounds like Soundgarten. That sounds like some 1990s grunge. When you don't hear it in the mix, it could be almost any kind of like, yeah.

So where in the world of this song is that part? I'll give you some drums and bass so you can place how it works in the song. So that's happening very buried in the mix. You may not have noticed it all these years. You know, when you play it, I love it when you throw all the context back in the song. there because now I'm like, oh yeah, I've heard that before, but when you hear it in isolation, you're like, that could have been its own composition. I'm so glad you said that because across this song, there's probably 100 different melodic and rhythmic ideas. Ideas. And it's

sort of the opposite of, I would say this might be like, you know, we talk about we love and adore and worship funk music, right? But so much of funk is frequently about kind of almost setting a drone kind of hypnotic state with repetition. And the variations are kind of all happening on the vocal line and on the vocal top line. And instrumentally, if you're the bass player or a guitar player in James Brown's band, for 10 minutes, you might be playing the same part. This might be the counter opposite of that. We're in a compact four-minute song, there's probably 100 different variations happening throughout all the instruments across time. And that's part of, that's like a synth-pop thing, too. You'll find that a lot of Depeche mode and a lot of, you know, a lot of bands like that

from the era. Let's hear another guitar part. I feel like you have another guitar part for us. I'm going to play one more little guitar moment. This is what we were talking about earlier, where things that just happened once and never again. I can only find one instance of an acoustic guitar in this song. It's incredibly brief, and here it is. Right? I'll show you where that is in the mix. I'd never noticed until I was going through this,

but it's this only happens right before the coda. Blink once and you'll miss it. It's just a little bit more texture, a little bit more feel. Again, I feel like this whole song is constantly like, build you up, and then it brings you here, and then it builds up some more, and it brings you here. And then, yeah, so when you get to that part of the song, they were probably just like,

how, we don't want it to sound just like another part of the song. Let's add in one more element. Yeah. I feel like this is like almost like a master class in just music creation. Absolutely. There's so many things that they're putting in there. There's a math quality to it. There's a texture quality.

What we've been talking about is all of the parts, all the melody parts and the rhythmic parts. I want to take a step back for a second and talk about just the song structure, because that in and of itself is unusual. Yeah, break it down, bro. So this song starts with, and it's a perfect intro into our piano riff, the iconic piano riff that we've all been waiting for. I know.

We've been teasing you. It's coming. It's interesting because that iconic intro with the piano riff is, the piano riff only happens in the intro and in the outro. The verses of the choruses, it's kind of like there's an entirely different song stuck in the middle. So I'll just tell you the structure. It's intro with piano riff, verse one, chorus one.

There's that keyboard solo, which is unusual after the first chorus. Verse two, chorus two. And then we have this outro, which is like about 40% of the song. It's long. It's long. It's long, I'll tell you. And we haven't heard that piano line since the beginning. Yeah.

And it finally comes back on it. As a person who sings this karaoke, you don't realize until you're seeing this song, just how many la la la la la la's there are. It's about damn near half the song. It's literally. 50% of the song, if you add the intro and the outro, that's its own song. That's about 50% of the time, duration. And then there's this song kind of in the middle, the verse and chorus, and they're completely, they're half and half of the song altogether. And don't forget, there's that,

there's that coda tacked on the end where they go into the sort of jazz funk fusion moment, which had come from the live show. So the song has like all of these different parts. And it's both a masterclass in melodies and variation, but also in arrangement. We're talking about about tears for fears, head over heels, we can't talk about the song without talking about the piano. And I think that our listeners have been very patient. Walk us through the piano, this wonderful piano riff that sort of makes this song the iconic song it is.

I would be more than happy to walk you through it. This is, the credit goes to Andy David, who I don't know much about, but he gets a grand piano credit. Let's hear the grand piano, which you will then hear is layered with several synth layers probably. There might be the Jupiter, there might be a ferulite, there might be a DX-7, but it all is playing a single note melody, which is just layered and is massive, and it's got reverb out it, et cetera, to be the iconic.

Is that the third time we've used that word today? In the last minute. Here it is. And that part has a little synth-fill. I just thought it was like a grand piano and a cathedral. It sounds like a grand piano and a cathedral, absolutely. And there's a little... Really high ceilings.

A little arpeggiated synth thing that comes in in the middle of that. That happens? Let's hear it in context. I'll play that for you in the mix. Again. Again with the builds, these guys. They like their builds.

Roland and Kurt, you like your builds. They like their crescendo. They like their crescendo. No, but I'm saying, like, it's like, okay, we've been doing this thing for like the last four bars, the last eight bars. So the next eight bars

got to be different. There's got to be different. There's got to be one more element if it's in there. Because even if they don't hear it, they will hear it. I don't think there's a single set of four bars throughout the entire song

that happens exactly the same way again. It's great. Yeah, it's really great. The builds. The builds. And then in the verse, the piano switches to this. Some drums.

The bass line. I mean, it's so good. I could literally just listen to that piano. Even though that piano is doing something very repetitious, I could listen to that piano. I don't know what they did when they recorded it,

but it sounds so, pure is the word I want to use. It just sounds pure and strong and, like, I don't know. There's something that really works about that. The addition of grand piano and live guitar, electric guitar, and then a lot of synthesizers and a drum machine. It's this human machine interplan that we hear in so many songs we love. I remember when I was still in high school, I was like, I don't know what made me say it,

but like, because I wasn't, I was a drummer. But I was like, the things that I like the most in songs are piano, violins, and drums. Oh, interesting. And for whatever reason, like... Violins. Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, this has all three.

Because that Pizzicado thing, whatever that's supposed to be, it's always heard it as a violin. I hear it as true, too. I just... It sounds really pure. It sounds really good. I don't want to even delay. Let's hear something else. So I mentioned Ian Stanley before.

In the video, he's playing the synth solo. I'm pretty sure he also played it a lot. I do think this is a part that he came up with. And let's just listen to it. And you've got to do this. Yeah! You got to do the yeah. Yeah.

of the, uh, and of Revenge of the Nerds, you know? Oh yeah. I know exactly what you mean, that kind of horn. It's a very sort of like,

horn sound. It's a very thin, yeah. synth generated horn sound. That doesn't sound like a horn. It doesn't sound like a horn. Just to me, it sounds like the 80s.

It sounds like the 80s. I feel like I need a mullet and a headband. Exactly. Don't dun, dun, dun, dun, da,

yeah, there will be a whole generation that are born and die and we'll never know revenge of the nurse because there's so much problematic material in it. But maybe we can say, But that's Lamont's big moment. Clap your hands, everybody!

Everybody clap your hands. You've been asking all year to do the Lamont rap, and I'm glad you finally got it in there. You finally got it to do it. It's so good. No, it is really good. These pianos are so good. Is there something else you want to play from the piano?

There's these little, I found these cute little, I like, you know what? I love to find cute little things. Like in Prince Let's Go Crazy, when there's like cute little thin synthesizers, you barely notice. Here's some cute thin eighth notes that I never noticed before. So that's this little moment that happens in this. second verse for a variety. Sort of like a ukulele. It's very, the pluckiness is very ukulele-esque.

I've been transported to Kauai. I was transported to Largo in the early 2000s. I'm sure some comedian there would be doing the ukulele songs of the early 2000s at Largo. All right. Now we've come to the vocals. We've said a lot about Roland's singing, but now we want to hear his singing. We're going to hear Rollins isolated vocals in just a moment. Now we mentioned previously that the songwriting process is it's Curtin Rowland and they'll decide from song to song who should be the singer. In this one, you know, Roland is the lead singer, and I found this... I'm sure there's some backing vocals from Kurt.

There's some backing vocals from Kurt. I think he doubles him on the falsetto part, which we'll hear in a second, and certainly the chorus. I found this great quote from Kurt, which is sort of explaining their process of how they make that choice. Kurt goes, if it's a softer song, it's normally me. If it requires being belted, it's normally Roland. My voice is a lot darker, more melancholic, and Roland is more of a shouter.

He's trying to make a point which is very loud. Man, I'm team rolling. Shout out to the belter from Bath. Shout out to the shouter. Who shouted the song, Shout. Exactly. That was a cool Kurt quote. Let's hear some rolling.

We did it. That's great. I feel accomplished. Let's hear it. One last thing to point out before we hear the vocal. We mentioned before how there's this interplay between a sort of regular voice in falsetto. This is very hard to do on every other line, which is what he's doing. A lot of times there'll be songs like we talked about. It is hard to do. Empire of the Sun, for example,

we talked about how, like, you know, the verses are frequently just sung in normal voice. And then he jumps to the chorus, he jumps to head voice. In Empire of the Sun, he does the pouty voice, and then he goes into the pouty voice. He goes to the falsetto. I remember the pouty voice. But no, this is a big back and forth. You got to make this change back and forth like every fourth or fifth notes. I wanted to be with you a love.

That is very hard to do. It's fun, though. And you can hear Kurt there, can't you? Yeah, very distinct. And talk about the weather. I very clearly hear Kurt add his voice to that falsetto part. Yeah, it's in there. It's in there.

But, I mean, like, man, this is just, like, you know, that feeling when you chills up your spine or whatever. Like, it's hard for me to hear this stuff without, like, be like, it's so exciting. Let's go to Korea Town right now. Like, forget the rest of the show. Let's just go. You've got to get it out. I got a shout.

I don't. I got to shout. Let it all out. Let it all out. Let's keep going. Let's hear the chorus. Something happens and I'm head over heels. I don't throw it away.

I feel like on this show we talk, we get really granular. How many rollins do you think are in there? I feel like there might be like four. Like it feels almost like a chorus of Rollins. It's definitely at least double-tracked. And I think Kurt is also there probably also double-tracked. There's no fewer than four vocals that are stacked together. There could be 16.

I know that they were using 64 tracks at a certain point. They could have 64 in there. It's hard to say. But what's interesting is... It does sound like a chorus, you know, now that I hear it. But what's interesting is that there's no harmony. There's no harmonizing. There's just singing a single note.

Something happens and I... There's no harmony. You know what I hear is I hear one Roland singing it straight and one rolling in the... Something happens. You know, like he's really in the... Characters, you're right. I think he's doing a lot of different...

I feel like there has to be a term for that. For what? Is there a term? What? I never fly down. You know, like, you know. It's like an extra vamp on it. I feel like we did, we talked about it in the Britney episode.

Yeah, a lot of people got mad at us for that one. Oh, no, they get mad at us for a lot of things. But I mean, like, yeah, I love it. It's braddy. It's braddy. Head over heels has like, it's like a little braddy. And for those people writing in about my catchphrase, maybe it's braddy, yeah. Let's go into, verse two to me might be my favorite part of the song vocally.

There's, we were talking about variety. So some of the melodies from verse one return, but you start to get this call-in-response thing. There starts to be variations, things that weren't in verse one. And it's very sophisticated the way it's put together. There's point, counterpoint, call-and-response stuff going on. Without further ado, verse two. Have you no ambition? What's some matter with my mother and my brothers used to bring?

Yes, that is a part, that little thing he does to the background. That is something because I never had the stems, and I've only heard what was commercial available. I have never known what they say. Can you play that again one more time? My brother's used to. When you're acting your age, it's hard to be. They've got like 85 songs in this song. Like I feel like nowadays, they'd be like, they would take each individual part.

it's good and make that the song. You could probably extricate 20 amazing songs from all the melodies and ideas going on here. Yeah, it's wonderful. It's super cool. But it's so satisfying that they've made it a compact three and a half minute pop song, four minute pop song. There's just layer on layer. And so like even as you're grooving at this part, there's something in this ear like singing something completely different. And like, I love that.

It's got that wonderful thing that a perfect pop song has where everything that's happening you're excited about. But you're also like anticipating the next exciting thing that's about to happen. You're like, oh, that next part's coming. Oh, that part's coming up. Oh, that part's coming up. You know, when you go to Coldstone, you don't just get your flavor. You're like, you know what? I'm going to put some caramel on this.

Yeah. And then right when the time's right, I'm going to drop some toffee in. They're like, they're giving you, like, additional sweets at every turn. That's the exact metaphor, analogy, simile, whatever the hell that was. Yeah, I don't know what that was. But I like it because it really is about, like, pouring, like, a little bit of extra. Yeah. And then I like their restraint.

Yeah. I like their restraint. There is restraint in the song. I don't know that there's any restraint in the song. They only do that Pizzacato once. Oh, I see what you mean. They don't do that thing about nothing ever changes when you're acting your age. That doesn't have in the first verse.

It's not restraint in terms of all of the ideas they're going to pour into the song, but it's restraint that any of these ideas happens ever again. You know, we're going to talk about samples in a second. But one song of theirs that I really, really like, is sewing the seeds of love. I've always felt even when I was a kid listening to it, that it was their attempt to do a Sergeant Pepper's-esque, Yes, very Sartre Pepper. Very George Martin.

But there were about four songs in So in the Seas of Love. And so it goes from one part to another part. They're really crafting, like, classical-level songs with, like, you know, this is the first fugue, and then we're going to go to this part. And then we're going to come back to that part of the beginning. They're really operating on, like, almost like a classical. And the mastery of the fact that that is in a top 40 pop song, that's what makes it so incredible. The fact that this was on the radio.

It was a huge hit. You know, it wasn't number one. It was only number three. Again, they were losers. Indelible pop classic, though, which we adore to this day, your number one garyoky song. I'm so on board. All of that with all the complexity, that's a master craft right there. Yes, with another vocal.

So let's talk about that big ending that we were referring to earlier. You're talking about the ending. Let's listen first. And we get about 90 seconds of that, by the way. Like, there is the closing line in my mind's eye. And the la-la is, it's interesting. we were thinking about it, because it reminds, it's obviously a trope, right? It's like, where have we heard this before?

Well, how many songs can you name with a la-la ending? No, I mean, to me, okay, so let's say something real quick. People know me, they know that I'm a writer by trade. I love great lyrics. To me, La-la-la-la-la is like, ironically the first two letters in Lazy. Like, I just, I usually hate it, you know, and I can think of a million songs, everything. La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la. He goes around the world.

Like La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la. And La-la-la-la-la-la-la. Like, Kylie-Mano. which actually I kind of like that song, but usually I am anti-law. But the fact that they somehow pull it off, I feel like by the time they get to their laws, they've earned the law. Because I think there's just something catchy in a song about an occasional law. You know what I mean?

Like, it's just you don't have to even speak English to enjoy an English song with the word la-l-la all over it. Exactly. And I love also the reference, which seems to be baked into it. I mean, the three songs that jumped to my head that have done that coda that's a la la coda is. So we got, Hey Jude in 1970 does the la la coda. And then in 1971, we have T-Rex doing it in Hot Love. And then in 1972, David Bowie does it in Starman. So I think there's a little nod, a little tip of the cap to these famous la laos.

We don't know how to disagree. I'm going to disagree. I think that there is a, I think if you go across genres, maybe we're going to be a lot of genres, maybe we're with the exception ironically of hip-hop, there are so many, I mean, like, if somebody tried to compile all the songs on Spotify of like, these are the la-l-l-la songs, I think you'd be there for ever.

I agree. There's a bazillion. But I don't think we are disagree. I think what we're both saying is that that is a trope. I mean, like, the idea of tropes, these are things that show up in songs from one to the next. Sometimes they have an origin,

like the da-da-da-da-da-da. That's actually, I only recently learned it because that's such like a cliche. how many songs have your, da-da-da-da-da. That's called the Ellington ending, because it comes from Duke Ellington's day train. So sometimes there are tropes that come from something, and then they just become a thing everybody does.

And maybe we'll never find the origins of the Lala ending, but I'm pretty sure all of the songs we've just named are kind of coming from this idea of like, how should we end it? Let's do the Lala ending. It's a choice you make. I think law is just an easy word to say, but again, I think they've earned it.

I mean, like, you know, I want to say a little bit about the lyrics of this song. if you ever have the opportunity, it's worth checking out some of the lyrics. I mean, like, you're talking about, you know, one of my favorites was, but traditions I can trace against the child in your face won't escape my attention. Like, to a certain extent, I don't know. And I feel bad because I went digging for, you know, sort of like the definitive, this is what head over heels means, lyrically.

I'm kind of glad that there's a lot of there are a lot of theories out there and none that I saw coming from the band themselves. I think that's the way it should be. Yeah, I think it's great to have your own interpretation. And I don't know if I would believe the band if they had, because by the way,

over time, I've been researching this stuff, there's so frequently the band talking about the meaning changes from one decade to the next. They had a meaning at the time. Maybe it changes over time. Maybe they decided to answer differently. And it changes for audiences. My father was a painter.

And I went to a lot of art gallery. openings with them and I would hear him to tell, you know, people would all inevitably ask, John, what does this painting mean? And I would hear one explanation. And literally a week later, we'd be at another art gallery and he'd be like, same painting, completely different explanation. And he probably was genuine authentic answers. It just changed. Right. Yeah. I think he was just like, you know, even my interpretation of some of my work, you know, and then sometimes I think it was just because he knew this person was probably looking for one explanation, another person. Or he was sick of giving the same answers, so he'd make it self-interest.

Sometimes it was dad being a little mischievous, but, you know, I think it's cool when we sort of leave it up to the listener to determine what it means. Well, what do you think that line is about? I have no idea. You have no idea. I don't know what the child in her face is, but I can imagine what the child in there. Maybe it's the, you know, Spielberg famously said, he's famously said to his child actors, you know, just you have to look at it as if it's something you've never seen before. And to his adult actors, he would say, imagine you're a nine-year-old seeing it for the first time. And that's how you always get that Spielbergian look of like,

you know, jaws, you know, like whatever that is. I think you're nailing it too specifically with this band because almost every song through this period, the first two records in particular, there's something to do with childhood. I mean, he's literally talking about when I was a child. Everybody wants to rule the world is kind of like the childhood need for power

when you feel powerless as a child. Shout, shout, let it all out, is I wasn't heard, so listen to me now. This song also feels of a piece with that because it's talking about, you know, my mother and my brothers used to be, breathing, clean air, dreaming I'm a doctor. So he's sort of a child.

Dreaming I'm a doctor is one of my favorite lines. It's a child's line. Yeah, it takes me back to what I thought, you know what? I'm just going to do really well in school and get a really safe job so that mom and dad never have to worry about money. Wow. You know, but I was a pretty happy kid. I think that it's actually one of the bigger ideas that I hope that we've sort of

unpacked is that in a lot of Tears for Fear's music, there is this idea of childhood trauma and the way that it, you know, shapes us in growing up in our relationships. I think we all hear all that in their music. and I hope that some of that has come through. And by the way, due to today's show, I learned new lyrics that I love from this song that I didn't know until today. Nothing ever changes when you're acting your age.

I didn't know that until today. I'm so thankful that we have the stems. Thank you for playing that because I didn't know that. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention my previous favorite line for the song. It's hard to be a man when you've got a gun to your head. I always thought that was a very, you know, cinematic, line. Yeah, right.

You know. I can picture that. Gets the people going. So, again, I think that, you know, lyrics, writing. Childhood Fear, too, right? Like, guns and power and, you know, it's hard to be a man. How can I grow up if there's a gun to my head? See, I'm such a shallow kid. I was just like, it's hard to be a man when there's a gun to your head. I'm John McLean. You know, like, I was thinking. But you, of course, it brought it back to childhood power. Yeah, childhood power. Yeah. I love it.

Whoa, this place looks familiar. It's going to be back. I don't know if this place is sustainable, but I like it. Let's continue talking. We want to talk about some of the songs that sampled head over heels and tears for fears in general. All right. So I'm excited to get into some interpolations and samples. We're going to start with this one from Cash Money and Marvelous. This is Ugly People Get Quiet from 1988.

It's a classic 1988 style sample with the original with just a hit. I'm actually more interesting in the fact that that group is called Cash Money before the Cash Money from New Orleans that we all know. It's not the famous Cash Money. Holy smokes. Okay. Early cash money. Cash money sampled. I was like, where was I?

I was DJing in those videos. Okay. But it's funny you should mention that because we'll get into in a second. The, I would imagine, high ticket value of Tiers for Fear samples that came soon thereafter. Okay. But before we go there, there's one more interpolation, which maybe you notice at the Super Bowl in 2022 when this happened. I love that one because of that scream at the end. I love it just because it's further evidence that black people really fucks with Tiers for Fears.

Absolutely. Well, it's perfect. That was absolutely, if you're a certain age, you didn't matter. matter if you're black or white. We definitely love that song. Well, this is that this is exactly right because this is that 2022 Super Bowl halftime. That's Mary Jay Blige. She's transitioning from family affair into no more drama and the band just throws in just for a minute. Yeah, that means that somebody was probably, maybe Michael Bearden. Shout out to Michael Bearden. I know he listens to the podcast, but like, you know, either him or somebody like him was probably like, hey, what

if we did that transition out of family here? They're having fun. Yeah, and that was cool because that wasn't just Mary. That was Snoop and Dre. It was sort of like a salute to the, West Coast hip-hop. They had Kendrick. Yeah, it was right there in SoFi. Right in our backyard here in L.A. 50 came down from the ceiling, right? 50s. It was insane. It was crazy. It was a really fun concert and

that's where I saw it. Well, it's perfectly segueing into the thing I was going to say about how, to your point, exactly, tears for fears are beloved in hip-hop. Yeah. Which is interesting because a lot of, not only are they sampled by a lot of, in a lot of hip-hop songs, but they're kind of the most high-ticket

musical borrowing, like the weekend Drake and Kanye and Nas and David Gettah. These are the people that can spend a lot of money on samples. You know what I'm saying? Not anyone can sample yours or tears. I'm going to be a little controversial here. All right. We don't usually disparate.

Court controversy. I don't know that as much as I love tears and fears of fears. I don't know that anybody's ever sampled them to great effect. I don't know if anybody's ever sampled them and elevated them the way that other people have been sampled. Interesting. You mean like to sort of transform? Yeah. Like, you know, in preparing for this episode, I was actually, you know, I was looking on the who's sampled.

dot com and i was like has this song ever been sampled by anything i love and you know i know i know that na's sampled it i know rick ross apparently sampled them last year um you know like people have continuously sampled them i think of all of them maybe the weekend uh came the closest to sort of capturing the feel of uh tears of fears yeah it's a good question whether any of these samples are truly transformative there's one actually in particular i actually kind of like the conier west coldest winter one so this is conier west this is coldest winter off of It always and Heartbreak

That's right That's right That's the album Which comes from The Tears for Fear's song Memories Fade And I'll just play you That and then let's

We'll get into it Yeah no The Pade is That one's cool Because it's obviously An interpolation And he transforms the lyrics A little bit

So it goes from Memories Fade To you know So I love the fact That that that's a transformation It's both a sample flip And an interpolation Not even my favorite Kanye's song

Name Fade But I hear you So what's interesting Is that Drake's producer 40 said Drake became super obsessed, crazily obsessed is the exact quote, with the melody on Coldest Winter, which led him to discover Tears for Fears. So we were talking on the Doja Cat episode

about how the producer discovered Dionne Warwick as a result of being sampled on another track. Similar situation. So this is like an example where samples are a discovery mechanism. Oh, I mean like that guy, yeah, exactly. He discovered Dionne Warwick through Usher, which is, you know, it's like, I read online the other day somebody was like, I discovered Daft Punk because I was really into that movie Tron and I was like oh my god how old are you and how old am I right tron from 2010 not not the original Tron no no no no 20 right so after he became obsessed crazy obsessed with the melody Drake did this I'm trying to do it all tonight I plan I got a certain lust for life and as it's that this is yeah that is that is the that is earliest Drake that is early Drake

that's his third mixtape so far gone from 2009 and it's the sales 2009 Drake. And it's a sample from another Tears for Fears track, which is, I wouldn't call it a deep cut, but it's an album cut for sure. Yeah.

It's the drum beat from ideas as opiates from the same album, The Hurting. And I'll play that for you now. I can't stand the ring. There's just that little drum drum machine intro. Lust for Life is the Drake track

from 2009. And then I'll just play one more for you. This is the weekend track that you were alluding to. This is Secrets. Secrets, which also draws in another song from the 80s. Let's hear it. Let's hear them both. I love that choppy. That chopy sample is cool.

It's so easy he hate on the weekend. But I always feel like the weekend, he understands that new waves in the sound of the 80s. Probably better than anybody. I still think he's probably got the best new wave sample of all time, which is a Suzy one. Yeah. Yeah. Glass Table Girls. Yeah. Which was the Susie sample. So I mean, like he, I think sometimes you had to get the music to understand what to do when you sample the music. He's proving that he's got some bona fides in the like 80s. department. Oh, for sure. In the New Wave Department. And that's, by the way, sampled from Pale Shelter right here. Tears for Fear is also from The Herding. And because you pointed it out, I have to also... By the way, I love Pale Shelter. It's not a song that I liked when it was out, but it's a song I discovered like in my 20s. And I was like, oh, this one kind of goes. You know, the Herding is such a great record. It's the one before songs from Big Cher. It's their debut. It has four Bonafide,

smash great pop song hits. It's a little more melancholy and sit-pop dark, but it's a a great, great album. And then, as you pointed out, Secrets also has this other gem of an interpolation. Which, of course, comes from the Romantics' 1983. Absolutely.

Talking in your sleep. Interesting to point out that it's really just the lyrics and the rhythm. It's not the melody itself. Not at all. It's taken. Yeah.

And he even changed the word. Like, they say, when you're talking in your sleep. But he said, when you talk in your sleep. It's just different enough, but not different enough to not require pain.

Oh, yeah. They are credited as right. Definitely reach out to a few lawyers on that. Everyone is credited with right. One more, and I'm going to play it for you because this one blew my mind. Okay. So, do you recognize that one? Recognize that song?

Oh, yeah. That's a, do they know it's Christmas? Exactly. Do they know it's Christmas? I never noticed it until I was doing some research for this episode. But that is, that drum beat is a way slowed down sample from the herding by Tears for Fears. Here it is. They took that, they took those sounds and sampled it.

And that's that boom, boom, boom, boom, and do they know it's Christmas? You know what's weird about that to me? This is coming from somebody who's not made platinum hits. But I'm always like, why sample that? All right, so this, I wouldn't, we are not sample snitches. No. We're not. Somebody in the comments said, we are, they're like, this man snitch every episode.

I'm like, no, that is not what we do. This stuff is public record. It's public record and or it's in the publishing and or it's on who sampled and or and or. In our defense, there are some samples and some things out there in the world that I don't think are public record that we will never bring up because. Why should we? Well, this isn't one of them. I am bringing it up because Ian Stanley. I tried.

The unsung third member of Tears for First, I was listening to an interview with him. When he cops to there being maybe kind of something similar about this song, this is Mad World by Tears for Fears. So again, this is Ian Stanley from Tears for Fears, who points out in this interview very publicly, knowing that it will be heard. So it's not Sample-snitching. How very similar it was when they wrote it to this. He's got people who've been working for 50 years No one has for more money Because nobody cares

Even though they're pretty low and down There's a little bit of a vibe there What was that? That is Yosef, aka Kat Stevens Matthew and Son And I hear some similarities personally Oh heavens, yes Personally I hear some similarities

But again I'm not revealing this for the first time I don't know man But that one's pretty close That was pretty snitchy I mean Tears for snitches. Tears for snitching, by definition, means you're the first one and no. Well, he dry snitched on himself, didn't he? He exactly, he dry snitched on himself. Thanks, Ian Stanley.

Hey, are you starting to feel weird? I feel like we're going back to the Sustainable Studio. Before we wrap up, I want to tell everybody listening again, please go back and check out that music video. It is hilarious. In addition to the singer Roland, trying to get the attention of a sexy librarian that you clearly have not forgotten. Gotten over her. No, she's beautiful. I get it. I love her. We can find her. There's the internet. You're married. I'm okay. I'm good. I'm good now. The fact that it's shot inside a library, there's a random doing a gas mask. Like I said, there's a chimp dressed in a Red Sox uniform making that chimp the most mature Red Sox fan in Finway. Oh, got Boston twice in one episode. I want to stay away from that smoke.

Hey man, I went to college over that city. I don't want to catch a strap. Boston knows how I feel. All right, so we've said a lot about head over heels, which I think, It's legacy, ultimately, other than being a perfectly crafted pop song with amazingly smart lyrics, it will also go down as my favorite karaoke song. Let me ask you, what is your favorite karaoke song? Oh, damn. Well, we recently had a karaoke night, the heartbeat, the one song team, and I had a lot of fun with Weezer's Buddy Holly. That one just, like, worked for me.

Okay, right on. Yeah, if we were about to go do it right now, that would be my first choice. Well, you know what? But I would definitely join you for this one. I would melt it out with you at the end. Maybe we can get rolling to DMS and maybe we can get Riber. Rivers Cuomo to come on the show sometime. That would be really a lot of fun.

Hey, luxury, help me in this thing. Okay. I'm producer, DJ, musicologist, and songwriter luxury. And I'm actor, writer, director, and sometimes DJ, Dialla Riddle. And this has been... Interpolation. Nope, this has been... Interpolation.

No, got it wrong again. This has been one song, we will see you next time. Maybe. I'm just kidding, I'll be done. I'm a sustainable. We are. We are. Sustainable friendship.

Thank you to the United Soybean Board. And we'll see you next time.