Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - Being Jewish Before & After October 7th with Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove

Episode Date: October 7, 2024

In this conversation, Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove discusses his new book For Such a Time as This, his journey from Los Angeles to becoming a prominent rabbi in New York, the impact of the October 7th tragedy on American Jewry, and the historical context of anti-Semitism. He reflects on the connection between Judaism and Western liberal values, the complexities of Jewish identity in America, and the challenges posed by hatred and division in society. The discussion emphasizes the importance of embracing diversity while maintaining a strong sense of identity as Jews. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is open, book where I talk with some of the brightest minds out there about everything surrounding the written word from authors and historians to figures and entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe, wherever you get your podcast, and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the parts you're enjoying or how we can do better. You know, I can roll with the punch. so let me know. Anyways, let's get to it. Today marks one year since the October 7th attack on Israel,

a devastating day of unspeakable brutality against Israel, Jews, and humanity. I talk with Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove about the impact that day had on the entire Jewish community and so much more. We must continue to stand with Israel and speak out for the victims. Let's go to the conversation. I'd like to take a second to recommend my friend Andy Astroy's great podcast in the back room. Every episode is a fun, incredibly honest take on our society and the political situation, along with some brilliant guests. I've been honored to join Andy on the show, and you know anywhere that accepts me with no filter deserves a shout-out. So joining us now on Open Book is Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove. He is the rabbi of the Park Avenue Synagogue since 2008, and he's a lot of the last.

a leading voice of American jury as a best-selling book out. And the book's title is for such a time as this. And the subtitle is, I'm Being Jewish Today. But it's a brilliant book. You've got a couple of my friends on the back of this book, Richard Hass, Deborah Messing. I'm Deborah Messing's brother's partner, Brett Messing. He went to law school with me. So I know Deborah forever. And of course, your cardinal rabbi is my cardinal, okay? And so I know the cardinal forever. What a beautiful book. And so let's do a little cavelling, if you don't mind with a little cavilling. The book is outselling the Bible right now. You know you love that. You know I love that. And you know your mother loves that, rabbi. So God bless you. Okay. Welcome to the show. It's great to be here, Anthony. Thank you so much for

the honor. Okay. So you grow up in Los Angeles, but you're really now a New Yorker. So let's start with the background and tell us why he came to New York, if you don't mind. And then we'll get into the book. So born and bred Los Angeles. And I went off to University of Michigan. again, so a big Wolverine. And from there, a year here and there in Israel, as part of growing up, met my wife in Israel, and went off to become a rabbi, to go to rabbinical school. My grandfather, Blessed Memory, was a rabbi in Glasgow, Scotland. So a last name like Cosgrove, one of your first questions is, what sort of Jewish name is Cosgrove? So that's where my roots are in the UK. And I, in a way, I just entered the family business, right?

I have one brother who is in the movie business, another brother who's in YouTube. My parents think that's really interesting. There's nothing interesting in my family about becoming a rabbi. That's what nice Jewish boys grew up to be. And then went and got my doctorate at University of Chicago. I thought I was going to be an academic. And then I went into the applied side in 2008 and became the senior rabbi of Park Avenue synagogue where I still serve today?

Well, I mean, this book was incredibly well written, and it's very rich in terms of insight into American Jewry, Jewry in general, and also the complexity of being a Jew today. And I'm going to measure being a Jew today. If you don't mind, you can correct me. But I'm just going to say there's a pre-October 7th, and there's now a post-October 7th. Unfortunately, just like there's an America pre-9-11, sir, in America Post-9-11. And I think you write about this very eloquently. And so we are recording this roughly about a week before the anniversary of the October 7 terrorist tragedy massacre in southern Israel.

And you talk about this new reality that the Jewish community has woken up to and as well as the generational divide. So I want to start there. Talk about pre and post October 7th and the impact that it's had on Jews around the world and the generational impact that it's had. We are at the one year mark, and unfortunately, the hostages are still captive. The war is still ongoing. In fact, you know, the north is boiling over right now. It's a very scary time, and, you know, my fervent prayer would be that this book is dated. And unfortunately, the themes of war, of the captives of anti-Semitism are just as urgent as ever.

I think what happened on October 7th was it was a wake-up call for American Jewry. And the title of the book is for such a time as this. It comes from the biblical book of Esther, and it tells a story of a Persian queen who hides her identity in the king's palace in order to rise up the ranks of Persian society. And life was going good until wicked Haman's decree came down, and the fate of the Jews was on the line. And she had to step up as a woman, as a Jew, and as a queen. And she had to step up as a woman, as a Jew, and as a queen. save the day, and that's what the Jewish Festival of Purim in the spring is all about. I use that as a metaphor to frame what happened to American Jews, because we thought that the condition of American Jewry was going to be different than other chapters of Jewish history, than our European counterparts. We thought that we were blending into the melting pot of American society, and on October 7th, it wasn't just a crime against Israeli. It was a crime against Jews.

It was a crime against humanity that was perpetrated that day. And the American jury woke up to this moment in time, a sort of whiplash feeling that maybe things aren't as good as we thought they are, right? Maybe our assimilation into American society isn't quite as smooth. And maybe our chapter is not so different than other chapters of Jewish. history. So that awakening post-October 7th wasn't just in Israel, but it was felt by American Jews, which is really what this book is all about. So, you know, it's interesting. I went to Yad Vashem a few years ago, and for those people that are listening, and what is Yad Vashem? It's a Holocaust

Memorial on the outskirts of Jerusalem. I've actually visited it twice in my life, and it's funny that I have different reactions every time I go, because it's different times in my life, sir, but the last time I went, of all the things there, all the descriptions of the Holocaust, everything that happened, the most resonating thing for me today, was a few words on a mural, and I'd like to get you to react to them. It said on a mural, as you're going through the exhibition, it said the Jews lived in Germany with peace and great prosperity for 500 years. Then Hitler came along, and 60% of the Jews moved out of Germany, but there were 40% of the Jews,

that felt that they were German. And we're going to talk a little bit about the hyphen, because that's part of your book. And so the 40% unfortunately, many of them were massacred in Germany. And so I want you to react to what I'm saying because, you know, I love my country. I love American Jewry. I love the Jewish people. I'm a phylo-Semite. I'm an Italian kid from Long Island who directly benefited from a good Jewish mom.

Okay, that was my friend Todd's mom. She wouldn't let him leave the house to play unless he did his homework. The Italians of my neighborhood didn't give a shit about that, Rabbi. I'm just letting you know. So I went over to his house, ate a whole thing of Entiman's cake, and I did my own work, and it turned out, well, I was pretty smart. I had good grades. Ended up going to Tufts and Harvard.

I blamed that on the Jews, Rabbi, okay? It was a good Jewish upbringing. So you're talking to a phylo-Semite, somebody that has great respect for Jewish culture and has a love of American Jewry and Jewry worldwide. But what is it? Because you're closer to it than me. You're part of it. What causes this threat?

What causes the hatred? What causes the murder? To me, it's so senseless, but you have a better answer than me. What is it? I've lived in three major urban areas in the states in my life. In Los Angeles, born and bred. I lived about 10 years in Chicago and now New York for the last 17 years. So with a few years here and there.

So for me, I've always lived very comfortably with my Jewish identity. There might have been a word here, there, a slur, maybe. But for the most part, to be a New York Jew is a fairly comfortable existence. But what happened on October 7th was a new, it wasn't new. It's always existed. Antisemitism has been around as long as there have been Jews. And I explain in my chapter on anti-Semitism that ever since Pharaoh began oppressing Jews said that we fear them. They're a fifth column.

They're different. They're other than us. And therefore they must be oppressed. That sort of strain, that virus in the human condition, that something we don't know, we therefore fear. What we fear, we therefore hate. And what we hate, we oppress or perform violence against. And that was in the Bible. That was the Jews with Pharaoh. If you look at the history of Christianity, some very dark chapters of Jews being Christ's killers and blood liables and otherwise and under Nazi ideology, the Jew was whatever the hater of the Jew wanted to make them be, a capitalist, a communist. It didn't matter. But those Jews were deemed as others and ultimately became six million of them victims of Hitler's Holocaust. It's a virus. And then now what's happened with Israel, Israel has become the symbol of Jewish difference.

And it has therefore be prompted all sorts of hatreds well beyond polite differences of opinion as to where this line or that line or whatever the political debate, which reasonable people can have, mind you. I don't make the claim anywhere in the book or anywhere in my rabbinit that Israel is any different than any other country, which is to say that it has flaws. But I just think that to delegitimize the right of Jews to have a sovereign state, to marginalize expressions of Judaism because by dint of being a Jew, you support Jewish self-determination, you slide into anti-Semitism very easily. What we've seen since October 7th is it could be in academia. It could be at the Venice Film Festival that Israeli producers are not welcome to show their wares.

There are a million places. Hillel's on campus, the Jewish institutions, are feet. feeling alienated because they support Jewish identity and therefore they're not invited into progressive circles. So I want to test something on you. I want to get you to react to it. When I think about Judaism, it makes me think of the West and it makes me think of Western liberalism.

And what I try to explain to my friends is that you can trace our values back to the Torah. You can go right to the foundation stone of the temple and all the teachings of the ancient Torah, and you can find the laws, whether it's the Ten Commandments or other moralisms in the Torah. They have been reflected in the Western canon of law through Greece, out to Rome, into the French, and even in the aftermath of the French Revolution, British common law, King John, the Magna Carter, the American Revolution, the Declaration of Independence, every aspect of Western liberalism and the idea of freedom, sir, has come from the ancient text. And so what I find astonishing is that we don't acknowledge that enough as a society where

there's some kind of disconnect. And so one, why do you think there is that disconnect? Do you believe what I'm saying? And if you do, why is there a disconnect? And then the second follow-up question to that is what can we do to make that better? What can we do to resolve that? Look, I'm a Jew. I'm partisan.

I'm a big cheerleader of this thing called Judaism. So I do believe as an American Jew that some of our core values can be traced right through the Western tradition right to the Hebrew Bible. And you listed a few of them, right? The idea that we can distinguish between good and evil and that there is moral choice that is endowed on us by our creator. the idea that every human being black, white, straight, gay, tall, short is created in the image of God and therefore to be extended equal and infinite dignity. These are values, and we could go through them through the Ten Commandments and otherwise, that are embedded not just in the Jewish tradition, but in the Western tradition. And it's really an expression of that very first call out to Abraham to go forth to the land, and you shall be a blessing that we are proud of. of our Jew Judaism, but it's not an insular Judaism.

It's a Judaism to be shared with the world, that we have value added to give to a broad secular humanity or other faith traditions. Your question is why has that been stifled? What is the fear? And I don't know. I think that the persistence of the Jew through the ages, the Romans, the Greeks, the Babylonians,

other kingdoms are not. no longer. The Jews are still here. I think we are the pebble in the shoe to humanity. To those who like us, we are a miracle or perhaps a curiosity. But to those who hate us, we are the victims. And therefore, all that which is Jewish becomes the object of hatred. So what do you think? I mean, I know I'm the guy being interviewed, but You know, you grew up with Jews, with non-Jews and otherwise. You know, I would hear slurs every so often, but, you know, where hatred actually comes from of the other. This will probably get me in trouble on my own podcast, so I'll answer it with envy.

And what I'll say to you is it's not even a religious thing. It's an envy thing. And so, and I'm not trying to be stereotypical, sir. So forgive me if it sounds stereotypical. I'm just going to give an observation from my life. So editorialism, the culture of Judaism, okay, the secular culture, forget about the Torah for a second, is family, family values, and a commitment to education. And it sometimes centers around the mother or usually around the mother. And the kids are taught to educate themselves because no person can take their education away. And they're taught about the struggle and the diaspora and the ravages and the cyclicality of anti-Semitism. And so if you're educated and you're equipped, you can move to another country or you could be portable with your brain. And they've gone on to become very successful. Jews objectively have punched over their weight economically.

They have a big impact on a planet of seven or eight billion people. There's 14 or 15 million Jews. They obviously have a big impact on the most, I think is one of the most important cities in the world, New York City. And there's a lot of envy because people are envious. And so unfortunately, when people get envious, it's one of the worst of the seven sins, uh, victim, self victimization, feeling pity for themselves and envy. And we know that the weakest leaders in our society will scapegoat others. We, weakest leaders are not aspirational. They're divisional. And they will find scapegoats to blame whatever society's problems may be on. And so it's been an easy target for the Babylonians, the Romans, uh, the Germans, you pick the group of people. It's an easy

target and people can can adhere to it you know and and i and i think it's as simple as that so i may be wrong about all that but i what i want to ask about because there's something you write about in the book that's left deep impact on me which is this notion that uh there's a hyphen yeah you're jewish american you're a british alien american there's a hyphen and how do you reconcile the hyphen right because there has to be coming out of the Holocaust, the idea that there could be a country, a Jewish state that would provide a safe haven for Jews after that type of a senseless, innocent massacre makes sense to me. I'm a supporter. I'm a Zionist. And so how do we get, how do we, in other words, and also the narrative, if I'm just being brutally honest, okay,

the narrative has been falsified. The idea that it's an apartheid state, the idea that it's a an unequal treatment of people sort of situation. I don't think that that is it at all. Remember what Golda Meyer said if the Arabs put down their arms, there would be peace. If the Israelis put down their arms, there'd be no Israel. And so you know the quote. And so to me, how do we get the message? How do we improve the messaging?

And how do we dial down the hatred? Because the contribution that Jews have made to humanity. And if you want to think about tragedy, I think about the tragedy. I think about the 6 million people that died that were playing the piano or the violin or making scientific discovery or medical discovery. I think of all of this wasted intellectual activity, this loss to humanity. You know, so how do we get the – First of all, Anthony, how do we comment down? You really are a phylo-Semite.

I wish all Jews love Jews as much as you do. My producer says that I'm not a Jew, but I'm Jew-ish. I'm Jewish. But I said to you before this started, if you believe in freedom, Kennedy got to the wall in Berlin. He stood before the wall and he said, Ish ben-In, Berlin. I can't speak Hebrew. But I think if you believe in freedom, then we're all Jews. Because the Jews are the first domino that goes. Okay. And then you don't think that domino is coming for you. But guess what? Once the first domino goes, the domino start rolling. And Rabbi, we live in a world now that has 5.7 billion people that are living under authoritarianism. Go look at the world. Go look at the map. Go look at the democracies and look at the autocrats. And the autocrats are winning. It's 5.7 billion people living under them versus us. So we have to figure this out and we have to take back the world and make it freer and fair. Amen, amen, amen. Look, you covered a lot. And first of all, my vision of America is a vision that embraces a hyphen, right? You're Italian-American. I'm Jewish-American. These are

aren't the same things, but the point is we figure out just like your childhood friendship, a way to all get along, that we all have a sense of shared destiny, even as we celebrate each other's differences. And I get into that in the beginning of the book, that there was this alternative vision. There was a famous play by a guy named Zangul who talked about the melting pot that somehow we all get in the same caldron together and all of our differences allied into a one shared vision of an American, which is not my vision. I actually have a vision, another public intellectual Horace Callan talked about a symphony, right, that we get to celebrate your culture as an Italian American, my culture as a Jewish American, African Americans, all the different hyphins of America.

That is actually what America is all about, that we can celebrate our differences and know that as important as our differences are, as human beings created in the image of God, we have an incredible amount more in common. And then as I get into it in the book, and this gets into your next question, is that there is the issue of how can we be Americans and Zionists at one in the same time. And that is a question that really played out around 1917, the Balfour Declaration, Louis Brandeis. He was the one who sort of first articulated this vision that one is a better American by supporting Israel and the Jewish state that these aren't. And that was actually in its moment a very controversial decision of someone of Brandeis's stature to make. He was a Supreme Court justice.

He was in a position of prominence, the highest Jew in the land. And he came out in favor of Jewish self-determination in what was then Palestine. And the story of American Zionism has really continued henceforth, the creation of the state of Israel all the way up through today. But the charge of dual loyalty is a pernicious one, right? That somehow you are suspect as an American by dint of supporting self-determination in Israel. And that's something that we see on the left, that sometimes dog whistles that we see on the right, that we hear on the right, that somehow American Jews are less than full Americans because of loyalties to, you know, support Jewish self-determination in Israel. And the last thing I'll say is, you know, strong Zionist as I am, and it really pains me.

I just want to get this out here that somehow in this season, and I'm not unaware that the elections are coming out, right, that somehow the word Zionist, has become a bad word, which for me is an expression of Jewish self-determination. And so it's a very painful moment that we're living in right now, where that proposition has somehow become controversial. Even with that being said, no different than I can protest my government here in America as an expression of my patriotism, my love of country, so too as a American Jew, I can express dissent with this or that decision, depending on my politics, with the Israeli government, not out of, or let me frame it in the positive, and I do that out of love of the state of Israel.

So I have no expectation that every American Jew walks and locks step with this or that Israeli government. If half a million Israelis can protest on the street every Saturday night out of of love of country, American Jews can also have a wide birth as far as expressing their love for Israel. Beautifully said, so I don't really have a lot to add to that. So I'm at the point in the podcast now because I don't want to overly take your time where our producers came up with five words. We all read your book. And I'm going to read out the word and then you're going to respond to it. You ready? I'm going to say the word. You're going to say it. Yeah, yeah. I've heard your podcast. I'm ready.

All right, I say the word identity. You say what? I say proud. I say Jews need to reclaim their identity as proud, proud Jews. It was great to be a Jew on October 6th. It's awesome to be a Jew today. Okay. I say Israel. You say what? I say the culmination and realization of a multi-millennial dream of Jewish self-determination and sovereignty. Okay. I say October 7th that day. Horrific. October 7th was a crime against Israelis, against Jews, and against humanity. Elliot, I watched that IDF film and I shared that film with a lot of executives here in New York, that 47 minutes is something that I could never forget for the rest of my life. I just want you to know that I pray for those people. Anti-Semitism, I say the word anti-Semitism. You say what? I say a slippery slope. What starts out in the academy, what starts out with words, what starts out with marginalization, it never ends there. It can slide seamlessly, imperceptibly, and tragically into acts of violence.

But not making this political, you know, I'm just going to say this. We need political leadership that's healing and unifying and doesn't like to divide people. Don't respond to that because I promise you I wouldn't make this political with you. A last word, and I'm going to let you have the last word. Judaism. Judaism is my past, my present, and my future. It is an accident of history that I was born a Jew, and it is the privilege of my lifetime to live proudly as a Jew and to lead a community to practice a vibrant expression of Jewish living. I'm going to tell you the word I think of. You want to hear the word I think of? I think of the word love. And I'll leave it at that.

All right, Rabbi, it is great to have you on my show. This is Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove. The title of the book, For Such a Time as This, I'm Being Jewish today. This is the great rabbi of the Park Avenue Synagogue. Rabbi Cosgrove, thank you for joining us on Open Book. Thank you. So Elliot wrote a beautiful book about Jewry in general, not just American Jewry, but jury in general. And if you like books like this, another great book is called This Is My God by Herman Wook.

Herman was a 100-year-old. He made it to 100 years old. He was a best-selling author in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s. He wrote books about World War II. And he also wrote the Kane Mutiny that Humphrey Bogart starred in when it was turned into a movie. But anyway, the things that I love about this story is the commitment to the religion, the commitment to the culture, and the undying love. There's a great line that one of my friends once said, and I'm going to paraphrase it, it says, are the Jews really the only Christians on earth? And it's ironic line, meaning that they have to put up with a lot, they have to stay charitable, maintain their dignity and good hearts.

But anyway, you got all of that in the presentation and interview that Elliot just gave today, and my heart goes out to him. All right, you want to come on the podcast? All right. I'm not going to come see you around 5 o'clock, all right? Okay. All right, Ma, so today, lower the TV, though. It's lower the TV.

It's too loud. Okay, got it. All right. So, Ma, today is a very rough day for Israel and the Jewish people, right? You know what happened today, right? They had the massacre. Yeah. Okay.

So your partner was a Jewish woman, Bernice Fields, right? Yes. So what are your thoughts about all this? I think it's terrible, and I think it's time for everyone to leave the Jews. So why do you think the anti-Semitism is so bad, though, Ma? I mean, it's probably the worst that I can remember in my lifetime. It's jealousy, right? I mean, let's just get it down to what it is.

It's jealousy, right? Yeah, that's what I think, yeah. Yeah. And I got along very, very well with Bernice. The Italians and the Jews are saying, the only thing the Italians don't do is send their kids to camp. Right. Otherwise, we're very similar.

Right. Why wouldn't you send me to camp, though, Ma? What was the reason for that? Because you never knew who was. on the other end. Maybe they were crooks. Okay. You wouldn't let, you wouldn't even let me have a sleepover when I was a kid. You were very you were very protective, Ma.

Yeah, no. All right. Oh, my God. All right, so, Ma, but let me ask you this question, okay? Because we live in a Jewish community. It's Italians, Jews, lots of ethnic people. What makes people get along, Ma, and what makes people dislike each other? Well, partner, and working with her, she was very savvy.

She was very knowledgeable. Mm-hmm. I have a... Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, of course. And I talk to her every week. Okay, so how do you make things better, Ma? Will there ever be peace, or you think it's always going to be like this?

Well, they have to bring their ignorance of people, have to have... Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And my... All right. So, Ma, if I send Nick or James in Summer Camp, you wouldn't like that, right? No. All right, but don't worry.

I'm not sending them. Don't worry. You rubbed off on me. I'm not letting them out of my sight. Don't worry. I don't believe in camp. All right. All right.

tell all my Jewish friends that are sending their kids to camp that the Italians can't go, Ma. That's not going to tell them. No. All right. Their family or... Okay. All right.

What else? By anything else you want to say today before I let you go? You're on a little bit of a tear today. You're on a little bit of a tear today. You're anything? All right. I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and that was open book. Thank you for listening.

If you like what you hear, tell your friends and make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. While you're there, please leave us a rating or review. If you want to connect with me or chat more about the discussions, it's at Scaramucci on Twitter or Instagram. I'd love to hear from you. I'll see you back here next week.