Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - Burn Book: A Tech Love Story with Kara Swisher

Episode Date: March 27, 2024

This week, Anthony talks with tech journalist, podcast host, entrepreneur, author and self-defined bad ass, Kara Swisher about her new book, Burn Book: A Tech Love Story. Anthony and Kara discuss their surprisingly similar backgrounds, and how they became unexpected friends when a “very short man” ran towards Kara at a conference... Kara takes no prisoners in sharing her thoughts on Silicon Valley’s titans, from why Elon Musk is his own worst enemy, to whether we should always remain optimistic about tech, considering its “endless dangers and possibilities.” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is open book. where I talk with some of the brightest minds out there about everything surrounding the written word from authors and historians to figures and entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe, wherever you get your podcast, and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the parts you're enjoying or how we can do better. You know, I can roll with the punches. So let me know.

Anyways, let's get to it. I don't think Kara Swisher needs much of an introduction, dubbed the queen of all media and a self-defined badass. I agree with both, by the way. She's fallen out with Elon Musk, made Mark Zuckerberg sweat, and is equally as feared as she is loved in Silicon Valley. But now she's here with a tech love story.

And we all love a Kara moment, so let's get into it. So joining us now on Open Book, Kara Swisher, a award-winning journalist, a podcast, Oath, an author, somebody I consider a friend. It started out rough for me. Rough, rough. With Kara Swisher, she likes to do that to people. She was lighting me up on a social media,

formerly known as Twitter, now known as X. Yeah, you deserved it. We became fast friends after we got to know each other. You came up to me. You came up to me and said, I didn't have my glasses on. And this small man was running at me. And I thought, oh, this is the end.

And there you were, you're like, you're funny. You're obnoxious. You're funny. And I was like, fair, fair, fair assessment. I said you're very, you're charmingly obnoxious. I definitely use the word charming because you're. Annoxious was in there. Abnoxious was in there, but charmingly obnoxious. But this is a fantastic book because it's, it's, you know, first of all, people want to, people should read this book. The book is called Byrne Book, a tech love story. They should read the book because you're a brilliant writer, but it's also opening up a window into a world that we can really only see superficially without the likes of Gara Swisher. So I love the book. I also love your writing style.

I actually think we grew up quite similarly, which is a little scary in some ways because we all have these little things that have happened to us that have affected our lives. Sure. But let's talk about the way you look at the world. Okay. So if someone said to me, Kara Swisher, I say, well, she speaks her mind. Yep. Incredibly honest. Mm-hmm. A lot of people don't like honesty in our world.

They do not. They like petite mendacity so that they can smooth out the edges of what goes on. Am I right? Mendacity. Yeah. Yeah. Petit. I like that.

These tiny little white lies so that we don't upset each other. Right. But you're coming at the people in a way that I grew up. Okay. So tell me why and tell me how you developed that and tell me why you're like that. because it's not usual, Garrett. It's made to who you are. Yes, indeed.

But it's not usual. So tell us that first. Then we'll get into the book. Yeah. I joke about obnoxiousness, but it's done very, very well for me, obnoxiousness. I think I just was like this. I think people are, I mean, I can't imagine you weren't like this as a kid the way you are, right? I would assume you are similar to what you.

Oh, I think, I think this will probably horrify you. I feel like we are very similar. No, but you and I are very, it doesn't horrify me. We are because you're, you're, you're, you're, willing to say the truth, even if it costs you something. Right. Even if there's consequences associated with the truth, you're willing to say the truth. So were you like that as a kid?

I was like that as a kid. No question. I was always like that. I think I was born that way in a lot of ways. And I think it was, it served me well. And I just was like that. I didn't have an ability. I mean, it's not like I don't have a filter.

I don't like say personally cruel things to people. But, and I'm not, interestingly, I don't often comment on people's look. or anything else, unless it has a point, right? You know, when everyone's sort of dunking on adult. You did, you did just call me little. That's okay, though. I am little. I'm sorry.

That's okay. I'm sitting on a phone book right now. I think it was descriptive. I think it was descriptive. I'm sitting on a phone book right now to talk to you. No, I get it, but you, I'm little. You're a short. It was just, I didn't have my glasses on and this very short man was coming.

Just remember what your mother said, though. I'm just saying. It's factual. When you're short, not only do good things come in small packages, but there's more oxygen down here. That's right. And we're smarter. That's why. All these tall people that air is too thin for these people.

Yeah. In any case, that wasn't meant as an insult. It was a descriptive. No, I love it. But I just was this way. And I think maybe it had to do actually with my height. I was very appugnacious. I always spoke my mind.

I think probably some of it had to do with being gay because I was very irritated that you couldn't talk about yourself. And I was quiet about that for far too long. Not that long compared to most people, but far too long. long. And I think it just was like I didn't see any sense and not saying what the stakes were or what was going on. It didn't make sense to me to be quiet at all. Well, listen, I have, you know, obviously more, and everyone does. I have many gay relatives and my message to them always is get out early and express yourself or who exactly you are so that you don't have any level of anger for not

being able to do that. And if people don't like it too bad, you know, and that's something like It's a price. I mean, you know, there used to be a price, right? A long time ago. Well, let's not get each other. There is still a price. A hundred percent. The question is, do you want to even be associated with the people where there is a price? You know, that's the thing. Right. But there really was one way back. Now, there's ways to live now that are, you know, I have four kids. I don't live in the shadows. And I think when you and I were coming up, you did. You lived in the shadows. So maybe that was it. I don't know. I just think I'm this way. My chief of state of the Ronsalda is gay. He came out at age 17 in the town of Manhasset, where you know Long Island.

So this is all vigorous, Irish, and Italian macho men. And, you know, he's my chief of say. I'm very proud of him because I've known him since he was a kid. And him being able to express that has made him healthier. Yes, that's correct. And I, you know, I have a nephew also that's gay. And I'm very proud of him as well. I mean, you have to be.

That it's being, being, saying what you think makes you healthier. You're just saying that. You just are. You don't, the anxiety doesn't build up. You're not trying to figure out what to say. I always say, you know, it's easier not to lie because they don't have to keep track of everything. You know, you know, Ed Koch used to say, you're not going to give me the cancer. I'm giving you the cancer.

Yeah. By telling you exactly what's on my mind. Anyway, sorry. All right. Well, why, why is the question I have for you. You have asked the word why. since you were a little kid. Why, why, why?

Were you always a budding journalist? You know, in a way, I guess it was. I wanted, as I wrote in the book, to be in the military, which I couldn't, again, because I was gay at the time. It was not allowed. And that I was the age when you would join. My dad was in the military. I had great reverence for the military, but I couldn't serve.

I thought about going in the CIA or the State Department, mostly intelligence. And it was limited if you, you know, there's a really great show called fellow travelers on, I think it's Hulu, about that, about, you know, gay, say, department officials, et cetera. And I just, it was too much. And so I moved to reporting. I don't think it's unsimilar. What you're doing is I really was going to be an analyst. I was going to collect information and then render an opinion about something. You know, like this is, here's all the data I've brought in. I know these people. This is what I think is going to happen. This is a

recommendation I make. I think I do that as a reporter quite a bit. Same thing. You know, at Georgetown, you're extremely focused on Nazi propaganda. You talk about the book of how fear, this is something that Joseph Gerbil said, right? The big lies, but also finding scapegoats, but then exaggerating fear. Absolutely. Okay, we have a quote-unquote crisis at the border. A lot of my white, very rich friends are super upset with it, but how is it really affected them? Not at all. They can't tell you. But, this is something that you focused on at Georgetown. Tell us why you did that, but then also tell us why it's so apropos to the world that we're living in today. Oh, I mean, propaganda is, and there can be good propaganda, by the way. It's been used to, you know, get citizens going in a war, whatever, typically in a war. There can be good propaganda in some fashion, but a lot of it's used in a negative way, which is to try to demonize people, try to create, to reduce what is a, like the board is a complex situation,

but it being complex is not what people, you know, that's not what makes people vote. They need a reductive answer. They need a, this is a crisis. And it's often born in fear, you know, this is coming for you. Antifa's coming. There was one town in Illinois or Indiana, I think it was who on Facebook that was convinced that this antifa was coming for this shitty little town. And Indiana, I was like, you know, anything that will make people fearful works really well. And you have to exaggerate it.

You don't just have to exaggerate it. You have to repeat it over and over again because it's very simple in black and white, people can take aside, a team or whatever, which I think people are used to. If it's nuanced, it gets confusing and it also means there's no really good answers. And people seek answers, especially from their elected officials when in fact, there aren't any. There's some problems that are going to be there for quite a poverty is a good example of that. So it is a complex. It's a bad situation to the border.

But often I do, like there's a lot of people who are like, oh, city. are so dangerous. And I was like, when, have you ever been mugged? And they're like, no, I said, so in your life you've never been mugged in a city? So is it, you know, it's dangerous if you're in the wrong place at the right time or the right place at the wrong time or whatever. But people have a sense of it that's much more and they take incidents and they think it will affect them because people are basically narcissistic in general. And so I think into these breaches, politicians, lying politicians, mendacious politicians like to slip, you know. I mean, of course, Trump is the greatest example of that. What a propaganda master is. No, no, no, he's, he's, he's very,

very good at it and he's very, very dangerous. And we'll talk about him in a second. So, you know, your book is great. And I'm not just saying that because we're friends. I learned so much in the book, but you write like a fiction writer. I'm explaining why good fiction writers are able to explain to other human beings themselves. And they can explain the human condition quite well. And I'm going to read something to you, and I want you to react to it. Okay, okay? And so you were talking about your stepdad. He took the house my dad was so proud of and sell it.

He also gave away my father's dog, a bassetown named Prudence. Erasing all those parts of my father seemed a weird flex on my mother whose own life had gone off the rails so abruptly did not resist. He provided a very comfortable upper middle class environment and then ruined it with a cavalcade of casual cruelties. Yeah. Okay. So another remarkably honest, very, very refreshing, by the way, because we've all had various traumas in our upbringings that have challenged us and maybe even shaped us and been a strong

bow for the arc of our arrow. But describe that upbringing, if you don't mind, because I think it's beneficial for people to hear it. The key moment of my life was, my dad dying when I was five. He was just out of the Navy. He had gotten a great job at Brooklyn Jewish Hospital. First, big thing. So he used the money.

big salary. You know, he had a Navy salary for most of his life. And he didn't come, he came from very modest background. His mom was a school teacher. His dad was a, was a, was a surveyor. So it wasn't poor, but it wasn't like, you know, here's all the money. Grew up in West Virginia. And, and the Navy paid his way through college and medical school. And then he served. And he got out, got this great job and died. Like, he had three kids and then just died from a cerebral hemorrhage. And, you know, that was a huge job. garring moment in my life and my lives of my brothers and my mom. And my mom quickly got married about a year or so after he died. And I get it. I get it. And the person she married was,

I don't know what else to say. Sadistic, I guess. Because or jealous of my dad's memory, I think that's, it's not, it's not that hard to figure out. It's obviously insecure, deeply insecure, and took it out on us. And it wasn't hitting. You know, there's lots of ways to do things like that. And I think what he did is we lived in very nice surroundings. He was an entrepreneur, by the way, taught me a lot about entrepreneurship, created his own companies, which was, I guess, laudable, but was very, always seemed to want to do the cruel thing. And it was, when I said casually cruel, it was things like the dog, which I think is very cruel or selling the house. I moved so much as a kid.

That's such a hard thing to do when you're a kid. Yes. He was constantly redoing houses, just a constant state of restlessness. that then we had to live with. Also, you know, he did things, he did all kinds of things. You know, I don't want to go into a lot of them, but they were all like aimed at us. And I don't know, I think it wasn't aimed at us. I think it was aimed at just like testing you. You'd leave a light on upstairs and you'd get downstairs and he'd wait until you were downstairs and said your lights on upstairs and you have to go upstairs. And I get lesson learning. I get, you know, I have four kids.

I try to teach them to say, please and thank you and turn off lights and things like that. instead of being raising you, it was testing you. And I don't think you should test kids. I just don't. I think it's a wrong way to raise children. I mean, listen, I had my trials. My dad was a rough guy, blue collar worker, and he was very rough and very traditional old school Italian.

So I'm not bringing it up to revisit pain. I'm bringing it up because the way you write about it is so real, which enforces the authenticity, frankly, of the later chapters in this book about how you deal with. with people. Everybody has trauma. And I think the reason it's, I think it relates is like a lot of these tech people have trauma. Obviously, Elon Musk's talked about it extensively. I don't think it's an excuse for behavior, you know. No, no, no, definitely not. That's what I'm saying. I had anything. You have to get over it and you can't blame anybody. You have to be accountable, particularly as an adult. Right. So, so this is something I've learned. Somebody had my sons, actually, I have two adult

sons. I have five children, four boys and a beautiful girl. And my two adult sons, asked me a question on my 60th birthday. Wow. Then I'm going to ask you. They said, well, what have you learned in the 60 years? And I said, well, I got to tell you, money is very crazy for people. It's almost like that drug commercial when we were kids, car. You know, the egg.

And they said, here's the egg. And they open the egg. And then they put the egg in the frying pan. Yeah, this is your brain on drugs. Right on drugs. That's your brain on money. These people, for some reason, they didn't grow up right, where they think they're better than you because they have more money than you.

Hey, PayPal, you got born a certain way. A lot of luck is involved in this. You know that as an entrepreneur. You're an entrepreneurial journalist. If I go left, right, left, I'm worth a billion dollars. If I go left, left, left, I'm worth no dollars. A lot of things happen in life that are serendipitous. So why don't you take a chill and, you know, get your ego down to the size that it deserves as a result of your mortality, which is equal to everybody else on the planet. Right. And so what's your view of that? You agree with that? Yeah, I do. Death is a very, it streams through this book. Obviously, it starts when I was young. And yeah, I think my awareness of death was learned very early, like the ephemorality of things. And I think that also made me still like, I got to say what I think because I don't got a lot of time. And I think, you know, and it was stressed by, you know, my grandmother who when I didn't, she was a full Italian, when she, when I wouldn't, when I'd say, oh, I'm busy. She's like, the graveyards are full of busy people. Like she'd always, and that was a good lesson. It was like, you know, I'm coming up there. You're right. Like, with this ridiculous. You know,

the idea that you, that you have unlimited time was not something I had the luxury of feeling. And, and so it was stressed in me, including, you know, when I had a stroke, you know, I just, it's a constant reminder. I'm not particularly religious, but there's someone reminding me constantly of the time frame I have. And I think probably it's why I have so many kids. I think it's why I work so hard. I think I know I'm very aware of time and I think many people are not. Now with the with the wealth thing, again, it doesn't really matter because you're, you know, there's also a quote by Woody Guthrie, no matter how you struggle and strive, you never get out of this life alive, you know. And so I'm very aware like, you're not better because you've assembled a giant pile of money. There are,

you're better for other things, perhaps. Maybe you solve cancer or you built, you know, I was just in Grand Central Station and, you know, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis was really the critical. She saved it. She saved it. And I thought, what a legacy. It was so beautiful. It was so beautiful. All these people bustling through. And I said to the person I was with, I was like, that's a real legacy. She's gone, but here she is, right? And I thought, that's the kind of legacy you want to leave, not pile of money or whatever. She used all of her power and influence over the city and the politicians to save that and look at it today. It's beautiful. Now in the landmark, thank God. I want to get to these billionaires. You talk to all of them, okay. Bob Iger sat you. Natella, Jack Dorsey, Mark Zuckerberg, but you have fallen out as you write about with Elon Musk. What do you think has happened to him? And I feel like when I'm reading your book, and I don't know Elon, and I'm not here to pick on Elon or anything like that, but I feel like he's his own worst enemy for some reason. He's like there's almost like a kill switch in there where he's trying to shoot his own, you know, foot off. I would agree. I would agree.

I think he wakes up in the movie. Let me see if I can fire the shot. I think he's deeply insecure. I think he's deep. narcissistic. I think he's troubled and never got fixes for her. I mean, I think he had a troubled childhood, but so did I. I mean, I think he's never gotten real help for his traumas and also his mental challenges, which he's talked about is he's obviously had some depression. He's talked about it. He's certainly, he's also talked about his use of drugs. I think he's probably medicating himself in a way that's probably not helpful. I think COVID did something to his brain. it did something to a lot of people's brains, right?

There was, there's a couple people who emerged from COVID. Quite conspiracy theory minded, moved to the right. Not that there's anything wrong with being conservative, but it's just, it's beyond that. It's something else. It's an expression of constant aggrievement, a constant victimization. And also that someone's out to get you. It's deep paranoia, like the man or they're trying to get me. It's a witch hunt.

All that stuff is all language of someone who, doesn't live in the real world, right? I not only agree, I'll just add this story. I was with an African-American woman this morning. She's a very accomplished hedge fund manager, and she's been in the industry and asset management for years, and she said to me, I don't like Elon Musk. I said, have you met Elon Musk? She said, no, I've never met Elon Musk, but just the stuff that he says about the DEI and the things that he said about Boeing, I'm an African-American woman. Right. It is literally, I'm 55 years old, I have worked my ass off on Wall Street. He's ill-informed. I've had to be four times better than the white males to get to where I am.

Right. And for him to say that, well, maybe I got the job because I was black. Oh, he's making it up. He pushes racist tropes. He pushes anti-Semitic tropes. I don't know why he's doing that, though. So why is he doing that? I don't know.

I don't know. He uses excuses of being, you know, his demons. And it's like bullshit. Stop. Like, you're just a bad person. I think, you know, why do you think Donald Trump's doing? He's just a bad person. Like, at some point, we have to stop trying to figure out and just say, this is a bad and toxic

person and we need to limit their influence on our body politic. That's really it. I don't know. What's wrong with Donald Trump? I don't know. Maybe his father was an asshole. It seems like it. Maybe his mother was retiring.

I don't know. He can't get over the lack of attention that his father delivered to him. the result of which is going to take it out on the rest of us. Well, yeah, except that guess what? We all have our various problems. No, I know. But I mean, there's a malevolence. I don't know.

But what I know is that it's toxic and it's impactful. And so because he controls some space stuff, he's got, you know, the cars are going to be more problematic for him on time because there's more competitors. But he's got an enormous amount of wealth. And so, you know, it's often like that with really rich people. They just decide they know better. You know, look, I don't know if you're friends with Bill Ackman, but I know he's not an expert on DEI and that he just a rich guy who gave money to Harvard, right? I think that's what he did and he just

gets to talk about it. Listen, I know Bill and I do like Bill, but what happens is you get a lot of money and then you think you're a genius in every category. This is why a lot of these billionaire sports owners, they don't do well with these teams. You know, Dave Tepper is one in 15 with the Panthers and every decision that he wants to make, he's making it. He's not allowing the football people to make it. Jucks oppose that to Bob Kraft. You said, okay, you know what? I'm going to focus on the real estate and things I'm good at, you pick the football players. Let's see when we win a Super Bowl. It's hard because you have all these enablers. You've seen it. Enablers around people that say, yes, sir, or whatever. And they're just, I don't know. I was joking that at some point I was going

to write a 90-part series on Twitter about hedge fund investing about which I know nothing. The same amount, he knows nothing about DEI. And so I just, you know, I don't mind debate. I don't mind people bringing things up. It's just that when you get to a certain level of wealth, you have enablers around you, for one, that is very deleterious, and you never get challenged, right? And then you think you know things that are neat, that have nothing to do with what got you there. But, you know, that's classic. It's classic. So let's go to TikTok for a second. Okay.

Do you have a view? Yes, of course. I've written about it quite a lot. Years ago, I wrote a piece in the New York Times that I thought it was the best app that existed. It had just gotten popular. But I used it on a burner phone because of the Chinese Communist Party. and I didn't have proof, but I'm like, why wouldn't they do it? Of course they'll do it. This makes perfect sense to me. And even for the safety effects, if they have access, if they bought, they couldn't buy CNN. This Chinese company couldn't buy CNN and it's decidedly smaller, right?

Like by a factor of a lot. They couldn't buy CBS. They couldn't buy, like, it's a broadcast company. And so let's assume they're spying. Let's not. And I have talked to a lot of intelligence people, I believe they are. And they are obviously doing it elsewhere all over our country, you know, within all kinds of systems. I don't know why they wouldn't do it here. Now, you know, the company has denied it. And I get it. But every Chinese company I've covered has had meddlesome situation with the Chinese government. It's what they do.

And I just don't believe this is the exception. Why would it be? It's so good. But it's also part of the culture. You know, they feel they have to catch up with the West. And they also remember things like the Boxer Rebellion and the Opium War. and they feel justified in doing it. I guess, whatever.

They're just a power. I don't know why. Should it be sold? I don't know what to do with it because they're not going to give us the algorithm because the algorithm will prove what they've done. More propaganda and more concerned with than surveillance. But you don't get the algorithm and therefore you just get the users and the brand. I don't know if that's the algorithm is what makes this site.

They're not giving us the, there's no way we're getting that algorithm. And so what does that mean then? then someone's going to have to rebuild it. It's a very expensive company. It's losing money, quite a bit of money. So someone's, it's going to be a heavy lift for someone to, to, to, to, to, to, not recreate it because I don't think it's going anywhere. It's just that it's not what you're buying. I'm not sure I mean what you're buying specifically. So, but we'll see. Yes. I think the government's going to, we should not let them be here. You know, someone was like, well, we free speech, this and that. And I said, yeah, wouldn't be nice if we were in their country. None of our social networks are there. Why not have

reciprocity? Then, okay. They'll never let that happen. And by the way, guess what we do if we were in there, spy? That's what we do. No. Hello. No, of course we would.

So that's why we can't stand on ceremony and be overly hypocritical. Yeah. Well, now Trump's flip-flopped, right? He was sort of for it. Now he's against. But Trump's on a take. Take, that's correct. They gave him some dough.

Yeah, exactly. He gave him a dough. I'm going to change my tune. This is why the Jews don't understand this. He's going to annihilate Israel because he's got. Possibly. I don't know. He's got Putin and Iran. You know, Putin's got an ozy to Iran and Trump's got an nosy to Putin. And, you know, he's not going to care about Israel. No, not at all. These guys got to wake up to the transactional nature of Trump and the nihilism, the nihilism of

Trump. He's going to wipe these people out. Yeah. I got a couple of more questions for you. I love the book. How does social media and tech impact 2024, the election? Well, I'm more concerned with AI and the uses of it and the possibility of some very nefarious video editing particularly. And little things like shaving off, you know, Biden's certainly got an age problem. So does Trump. Making Biden look a little older by just a tiny bit, you know, in videos. Or say you let, you said someone was dead the day of the election, but put it out there. There's a number of things they could do. I'm still a word about election security, not in the Trump style, but in terms of hacking. You know, we've sort of went a long way towards that, but I'm always worried about that. And of course, the ability

to radicalize people has already worked before we had an information desert with people. Now we have an information flood, except most of which is crap. And you know, you see, but it's already worked. You know, you see interviews with, you say, Trump supporters. And they're like, what if he raped someone? That's okay. What if he did this? That's okay. What if they did? They did all those things. So they're already done. It's already baked. They're not going to suddenly go, oh, yeah. So that propaganda has worked. So I think we're already very deep into a cycle. So this is a tech love story. Tech love story.

Yeah. You're an optimist about tech. You're an optimist about the future. Tell us about the future. Tell us why this is a love story. Well, it's a future if we do things in a different way than we've done. There's been no regulation of tech ever because right when they became ascendant, our political system deteriorated.

Imagine if nobody stopped standard oil. Imagine if nobody stopped didn't break up AT&T. That's the reason we have cell phones is because AT&T got brought. I mean, that's a very simplistic way of doing it. But, you know, if they have moved through the breach of our broken political system to become ungovernable, they don't have any regulations specific to them. Airlines do, pharmaceutical companies, you do, you do, Anthony. You know, you're bound by rules. And some of them, you're like, I hate that rule.

But honestly, a lot of them are pretty good. And it keeps the market safe. You know, even like meat inspection, it's not perfect. But, you know, when people get sick, it's rare, not. common. And there's no regulation against text. So what's coming is a supersized version of what's happened before. And I'm worried that we don't have the correct guardrails in place for the quantum level of development in AI that is happening right now. And if we don't, it is going to change us and be run by unaccountable, ungoverned, unelected, unacable people, powerful people making

decisions for the rest of us. And you see how that's turned out the first. time. So I not only agree with that, but I can take it back to Citizens United. And for those listening, Citizens United allowed for unlimited spending in the body politic. And so the tech people unleashed that. These companies would have been broken up by Ronald Reagan, a great capitalist, Judge Harold Green. They would have been broken up like standard oil, but they're not being broken up because they own the Congress. And so this is a danger. It's a danger for capitalism because when you get this level of monopolistic action. It ruins customer service.

It also ruins pricing competition. But it's a different thing. We haven't updated antitrust. Some of this stuff is useful and people like it. We have to really rethink our markets. And just because there's no price effect, there's an effect. So how should these companies be judged? And we haven't done the heavy lifting to do that.

And again, I always use this example. Alaska Air blows one window and then 750 planes are grounded. People are fired. There's lawsuits. There's investigations. Meanwhile, meanwhile, teen girls are showing enormous levels of self-esteem problems. Teen boys and men are addicted to online porn. And again, I'm not everyone's mama, but everything else gets a look-see by the government,

and especially in terms of data. And this doesn't. This just doesn't, just because we decided it's addictive, too. You know, I appreciate you bringing it up and I appreciate you writing about it because hopefully at some point the tide can turn. I mean, you know, I believe in America and I believe in the adaptability of America. It'd be better. It'd be better for you're an entrepreneur yourself.

Teddy Roosevelt stopped it. We were here before. Right. And the thing is, it's better for these big companies will hinder innovation. They will hinder development. If they run everything, there's no room for entrepreneurship. It would have been $5 a minute for long distance right now here in 2024. Yes, indeed.

Okay. So I end these podcasts with. with five words. The book is a burn book, a tech love story. And so what I do, Kara, is I say five words. Okay. I ask the author to think of something that comes to mind. Okay. Ready? Yep. Okay. I'm thinking of the word power. You say what? I say power. You say what? Unaccountable. Unaccountable. Okay. All right. So that does happen with people that get power. Money. Unaccountable. I think it's the same thing. Money, deleterious effects of. Yeah, that's my observation at age 60,

the people go crazy with the money, calm down. After a certain point, you have plenty. And study after study shows that, by the way. Relax, you're not going to, you know, what are you going to do? You're going to prove to you better than somebody else? You're going to be in the grave trying to prove that. Relax. Life.

Good. I have a good life. Yeah, yeah. You see, you channel Woody Guthrie. I channel Mel Brooks. He always says, relax. None of us are getting out of here a lie. Yeah, but good.

I have a good life. I feel good about what I've done. Okay, amen. And God bless your children and your spouse, etc. I say the word technology. You say what? Endless possibilities, endless danger. Mm-hmm.

It's interesting because it's a double-edged sword. Yes, it's a tool or a weapon. Okay. I say the last two words, Kara Swisher, you say what? Bad ass. Bad ass. Bad ass. That's it.

Yeah. Charmingly obnoxious. No. Jarmingly obnoxious? You know, I have a thing that I want to put on my gravestone, although I'm getting cremitted, so probably that won't have one. But I thought about it a lot. And it's, I have it. And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, I use the correct punctuation, which is fun exclamation point, fun exclamation point, fun exclamation point.

Death period. Fun, fun, fun, fun, death. Well, I love that. But I'll tell you this. I have to admit this to you now, okay? When you were writing and shiting me. Yes. When I was the White House Communications Director, I was actually flattered by it because I was a fan boy of yours.

Well, I can't wait until you're back in the White House then. See that? I only want one extra day. It'll make it an even dozen. The title of the book is Burn Book, a tech love story. It's a bestseller from a legendary writer, Kara Swisher. And by the way, thank you for joining us. Of course.

And I love the book. Thank you. And I'm looking forward to your next piece of work as well. Thank you, Anthony. I'm Anthony Scaramucci and this is Open Book. For more about me, my childhood, early career, Skybridge, Bitcoin, and yes, the White House, my new book from Wall Street to the White House and back, is available for pre-order on Amazon and wherever you buy your books.

Like me, Kara does not mince her words. So you know, I have a lot of respect for that. She's an incredibly straight shooter. When I was in the White House, she was pounding me on Twitter. And of course, when I got out of the White House, I had the good fortune of running into her at a conference in Silicon Valley. And I walked over to her and she was like, oh, this guy's going to like smack me or something like that because she was really miserable and brutal. But I'm actually a fan of hers. And if you're in public life, you can't let people's words really bother you that much. And thus began a great friendship.

Here's what I would say about her. She's on point on tech. She knows her stuff. She's willing to ask the tough questions and a good journalist isn't there to fawn over somebody, even if they're worth a billion dollars. A good journalist is there to really understand the story. And so she's a great person and she's somebody I really admire for her authenticity. And I encourage you to read her book because there's a lot of truth of what she's saying about what's going on in our world right now where five, six, possibly seven companies actually have a huge say of what's going on throughout the economy. All right, Ma, you want to come on the show? Huh?

Do you want to come on the show? What do you mean? The podcast? Yeah, the podcast. Yeah, you're ready? Yeah, yeah. So this next guest of mine was a woman named Kara Swisher, and so she comes from an Italian family. And the funny part about it is she was nasty to me when I was in the White House, but she's actually a very nice person, but she's a lesbian.

And so, you know, she's very, you know, democratic because of that, like a Democrat. And we became very good friends. And then to make you laugh, Ma, her. Her 85-year-old mother wanted to meet me, so I had lunch with her mother. Do you love that? Yeah, I do. Fellow Italian lady like you, her hair was all puffed up, you know, you know the way you like to puff your hair. I love makeup.

You have good skin, ma? I have good skin. My father didn't have a line on his face, but my mother died young, so I don't know how she would have really aged. All right. All right, but this woman is in technology, and she writes a column, and she's really good at the gossip. But is there anybody better than gossip than you, ma? Is there anybody better? That I like to gossip.

Oh, you know you like the gossip. You know everything about the town of Port Washington. You know who's doing everything. You're almost like Alexa before there was an Alexa, Ma. Background? Yeah, go ahead. Yes, she can. It was a hospital across town dock, and I was born there.

Right. And I've lived in Port Washington all my life, except for two years. I lived in Louisiana. And let me tell you, when I saw Louisiana, I knew for sure that I wanted to come back to Port Washington. All right. Well, tell me why. Louisiana is a completely different place. in the United States.

It's not for me. There's a lot of nice people there, but weather is very kind of poisonous snakes and Port Washington is serened. We have to raise children. All right, so you're like a walking... You're a perfect example. Yes, Ma, yes.

Okay, but talk about the gossip, though. You like gossip, Ma, or no? Do you read the New York Post? Well, but today I have... And we commit that we talk about this one and that one. You like looking younger than all those people, though? Tell the truth.

You know, you're vain. Do you like looking younger than them? I don't want to hurt them. Yeah, I do. People at maybe seven years old, and I get people that are totally into me that are males. Oh, is that right? You know it's right.

All right. Somebody gave me a bracelet, and the bracelet said, love you want it. Get the heck out of here. Oh, my God. All right. All right, Ma.

Too much information for me, Ma. You don't want me to throw up on my own podcast. Too much information. All right. All right. That's it for today, Ma. Thank you for joining my podcast. I love you.

Thank you, baby. All right, love you. Bye. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was open book. Thank you for listening. If you like what you hear, tell your friends and make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. While you're there, please leave us a rating or review.

If you want to connect with me or chat more about the discussions, it's at Scaramucci on Twitter or Instagram. I'd love to hear from you. I'll see you back here. next week.