Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - Faith, Lies & Power with Katherine Stewart

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

In this conversation, Anthony interviews Katherine Stewart, author of Money, Lies, and God, to examine the rise of Christian nationalism and its impact on American democracy. Katherine shares her journey into understanding this movement, shedding light on the misinformation tactics used and the key figures driving it. The discussion explores the movement’s anti-democratic tendencies, the influence of Donald Trump, and the push for a regressive vision of America.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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That's everything. That's from authors and historians to figures in entertainment, political activists, and, of course, Wall Street. Before we dive in, make sure to follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to leave a review. Good or bad. I want to hear from you. I want to hear whether you're enjoying it or where we can improve. And I can take the hits.

So let me know. If you don't like something, say it straight. Now let's get into it. On today's episode, I'm talking with Catherine Stewart about a serious threat to American democracy, Christian nationalism. Catherine has spent 16 years exposing how this movement isn't just about religion. It's about power. From the public schools to the Supreme Court, wealthy backers are pushing an agenda that's

anti-democratic, built on misinformation, and aiming for, control. How did we get here? And what does it mean for the future? Let's find out. Okay, welcome to open book. I am your host, Anthony Scaramucci. Joining us today is a New York Times bestselling author, Catherine Stewart. The title of the book is Money Lies and God, inside the movement to destroy American democracy. What a killer book this is. And first of all, thank you for coming on. But secondarily, I was moved by your book. And I know before we went live, I was also moved by Tim Alberta's book. I learned a lot from both these books. Yours is a little different. We'll get into it in a second. But let's start with you. What got you into this? Tell us a little bit about Catherine Stewart. Thanks. You know, I've been writing about this movement for 16 years and it really started on a playground in Santa Barbara, California, when I learned that a program called a Good News Club was coming to our daughters and our children's public elementary school. This is an evangelistic program that aims to convert children who are too young to read in a really reactionary form of evangelical Christianity.

As we know, evangelicalism is really diverse. But the interesting thing about this program is that the evangelical parents at our school didn't want this program coming to it. They offered them free and better space in the church literally next door to the school. Monastito Covenant Church's absolutely beautiful church and the Good News Club leaders declined. They insisted on being in the public school. And what they're doing is they're confusing young kids into thinking that their school endorses a particular form of the Christian faith because public schools have a cloak of authority in the minds of very young kids. So this was really astonishing to me. I thought, what do my evangelical friends know that I don't know about this organization and why do they need to be in the

school as opposed to that lovely church next door? And how is it legal and constitutional for them to be operated in public elementary schools in the first place, given the First Amendment and the separation of church and state. So I started researching the legal advocacy world of the religious right, that sort of feature of the larger, I would call it a Christian nationalist movement. And that really set me down the path of investigation. And what I discovered over time is that, you know, this group was one part of a much larger sort of element of the movement that really is taking aim at public education as a pillar of democracy, but that sort of hostility to public education is just one small feature of a much larger movement that was really trying to reframe our country

and turn it into something different. So most of these states were formed, founded, colonies founded on religious tolerance. I mean, there were people that were moving into Pennsylvania. They were Dutch. Some of them were Amish. And they wanted to have a different idea. identity from various different Christian sex. And so they did that. And then there was a successful revolution. And then there was a bill of rights. And guess what the first one is is a freedom of speech and free religion. So what am I missing? Like why would somebody want to impose their religion on you? What's going on in their head? Well, they have this very, you know, the contours of their idea are really that the U.S. is founded not on any principles, their principles of tolerance

and pluralism and equality, but more on a specific religion and cultural heritage. They have this idea that America is really on the brink of an apocalypse thanks to the rise of equality and pluralism and what they call the radical left, which is, by the way, includes a lot of conservatives and rhinos, anyone remotely not on board with their agenda, they have the idea that democracy won't be able to solve the problems and the idea that, therefore, the rules really don't apply anymore. So what we need is a strong man, an authoritarian leader who puts himself above the law and who's going to scrap, you know, the rule of law basically seize the reins of power in favor of the iron fist. So it's really, in sum, the idea that democracy, in the sense of the

government is representative of the people, you know, of the people, by the people, for the people, respecting individual rights and true religious freedom in a pluralistic society. It's this sense that this kind of government doesn't work and that they want to smash it up and create something new. And, you know, this is emphatically not the idea of Thomas Jefferson and Frederick Douglas and Abraham Lincoln and so many others who actually helped create America as we know it. It's as anti-American as it gets. So, I mean, listen, I mean, your book scared me. I'm going to tell you why it scared me.

There's more people every year that want to be the people that you're writing about, Catherine. Meaning, if I said to you, the rate of change, the slope, is for more intolerance as opposed to more tolerance. And they're also smart. They're smart. They're doing what the Republicans did with Operation RedMap. They're figuring out a way to legally infiltrate their message. React to that. Am I wrong?

Tell me. No, you're absolutely right. I mean, in many instances, they're using the tools of democracy to destroy democracy. But they're also using tactics that I think are frankly craven, like the spread of misinformation. I mean, this is the key to so much of the story. That's why I put the word lies right in the center of the title of my book. If you can separate a certain number of people from the facts, it makes them so much easier to control. So, you know, I've spent a lot of time over the 16 years in these spaces.

I go to right-wing conferences and strategy gatherings and, you know, places like America Fest or a Road to Majority Conference, where you can really hear movement leaders and strategists talking amongst themselves and not just signaling to the rest of us. And you also gotten to know a lot of the rank and file. A lot of these people are frankly really nice people. They love their families. They care about their communities. And they think they're doing what's really right for America. They think they're saving our country from a demonic woke borg.

But, you know, they've also been, like, massively disinformed. One good way to demonstrate the crucial role of this information, this misinformation and conspiracism, really, is to ask Americans some really basic factual questions. You ask them, was the 2020 election stolen? What percentage of the U.S. is black or gay or Jewish? What percentage of wealth is concentrated at the top 1% or what was, say, the inflation rate in the U.S. versus other countries following the pandemic. Did the economy grow under the former president? And the answers to these questions will really show that they do not really, you know, they've been misinformed by the facts. They live in a fantasy world where Trump won the 2020 election by a

landslide, and blacks and trans people add up to a majority of the population and are sucking the government dry, where Jews are 30 percent of the country or something like that, where the Biden a con moves a hellhole. So these sort of conspiracy gatherings that I've covered in my book, Money Lies and Gods, such as America Fest, I'm sure you read that chapter, where it's this, You go into these spaces. There are thousands of people at megachurches around the country. You know, they're sort of like Trump rallies, but Trump doesn't show up. But one of his sons usually does to speak. They're, you know, organized by Mike Flynn and some of Trump's other most devoted allies. You walk in, you hear about the great replacement and they're trying to microchip you.

And there's like a lot of people like rhino hunting t-shirts. You know, they're really like very hostile toward insufficiently loyal. as you know. And there's a lot of very violent language. I think the language creates the permission structure for political violence. But more than that, these folks who are attending these gatherings are just massively disinformed. It's, you know, they're hit with every, you know, 666 is emblaz on the World Health Organization's front door. And I mean, it's every conspiracy imaginable. And it's really intended to confuse people. It's, as Steve Bannon said, flooding the zone with, and then he used the S word. And that sort of turns people around and is really about cultivating in them fear, this fear,

and then holding out the promise of this, you know, magical savior on a white horse, Donald Trump, who, according to them, never did anything wrong, is this sort of perfect person who's going to battle the forces of evil. So we're really dealing with, I mean, it sounds fantastical, but if you go into these spaces, It's like entering a world of total disinformation and conspiracism. Other reporters have written about these things. You can watch a lot of the speakers on YouTube. So it's actually happening.

It's not hiding. It's like a lot of folks just have not been listening. So, okay. I mean, yeah, this is an obvious question, and I'm sure you've answered it a hundred times. So Mr. Trump, President Trump, is a serial adulter. He's married three times. He's broken the law. He's been a sexual aggressor.

He's convicted felon in the state of New York for transgressions related to bribery and hush money payments. And so how do they reconcile all that with the perfect white knight in shining armor? And how does he get away with that, honestly? I mean, and I'm going to take notes here because I, you know, I think people would like to get away with it, wouldn't they? I mean, how does he do it? I mean, gosh, there's, first of all... I don't want to get away with it, Catherine. I'm just saying that to make you laugh.

It's working. Well, I mean, listen, part of his transactional, you know, in the run-up to the 2016 election, you know, I've been writing about this movement for a long time and I would go to these gatherings. And some of the leaders of the religious right, you could tell in the beginning they wanted Ted Cruz. They really... There were a couple folks, like, you know, who actually couldn't say his name. But it was clear that he had, like, the popular touch. He really channels the aggressive.

of his followers. And he says, you know, when they're coming for me, they're coming for you, and I'm fighting for you, like that kind of thing. But the leaders of the religious right, so the Christian nationalist movement, let's just pull back for a second, much of it functions as a giant voter turnout machine. They've got, you know, the relational organizing. They do it through churches. They do it through, like, trusted members of the community. He needed to get them on board. So he made a deal. He gathered in 2015, I think it was a summer at a Marriott in New York City with a thousand evangelical pastors. And he held up a list of potential Supreme Court justices like a, you know, like shiny new bonds. And he said, I'm going to choose from this list and all of them are pro-life. So that has been a really longstanding aim of the movement. Then he said, I'm going to have an evangelical advisory council and I'm going to choose Mike Pence as my VP. And those three promises. helped to solidify their support for him. So they really turned out their voter turnout machine on his behalf.

And sometimes I'd hear at these gatherings, these speakers of the leaders of the movement speak and tell their people, we don't need a savior. We already have a savior in Jesus Christ. We need a leader. And this election is about judges, judges, judges, because it's the legal advocacy sphere that I referenced earlier. You've got the Federal Society and you've got a range of, I would say, Christian nationalist legal advocacy groups like the Alliance of Defending Freedom, Liberty Council, First Liberty Institute. There are hundreds of millions of dollars that flow into this right wing every year right wing legal ecosphere.

A lot of money buys a lot of judges, but they know that if you can control the courts, you can impose policies on the rank and file that they might necessarily want. So for instance, most Americans, actually Republican and Democrat alike, support abortion rights, at least in some form. You know, I know from personal experience that if abortion is totally illegal, it makes childbirth much more dangerous because when things go wrong, as has happened to me, I needed an abortion to save my life during a miscarriage. and it was delayed because it was, you know, for faith-based reasons, it's bad, you know, and we're already seeing women across the country in states that ban abortion dying because of this, these bans, Publica is doing a pretty good job of finding and telling some of these stories. But, you know, they still have this, you know, absolutist, no abortion ever for any reason, et cetera, take.

So they know if they get the courts. I'm sorry for the digression, but they know if they can get the courts, they can get the country. But there is more to it than that. This is a movement that is fundamentally anti-democratic at its core. If you really dig into the ideology, as I've done in my three books on this topic, and especially in money lies in God, you can see that this is a movement that doesn't believe in democracy. It really wants something different in autocracy.

And Trump is a perfect leader for an autocratic movement because he doesn't follow the rules. He breaks the law. He's like moving the goalposts and moving in again and moving again, pretty soon they're not even on the playing field. And, you know, they're often referring to him like a king, a king Cyrus or King David. Yeah, and he, believe you, trust me, that's what he wants. That's why a lot of us who love democracy and love the frailty of human beings, ourselves included, and accept that frailty, don't want that. We know that always ends in terror. But let me just ask you

this, because I'm fascinated by the book, I know the answer, but I want, because I read your book, but I want you to tell the people that are listening. Give me the utopia for them. So come down with the tablets and tell me what the perfect America is for the money, lies, and God group of people. What does it look like? It's interesting. The movement seems to emphasize a return to some kind of imaginary version of an allegedly better past. The past that includes element of a regressive social order.

such as gender hierarchy, the suppression of certain forms of speech, attacks on religious freedom of those who don't conform among other features. It's the kind of vision that never really existed the way that they think it did. So, you know, what is this in America made great again? You know, it's funny because when they talk about the past, the elements of the past that they really like, often they'll harken back to the good old days of the 1950s. Well, let's think about what was happening in the 1950s.

Tax rate at the top was a lot higher than it is today. The average CEO in America could have a very nice standard of living, but they weren't making many hundreds of times the amount of their average worker unless, I mean, that's people actually living in American work. So, you know, they're sort of hearkening back to a fictitious fantasy, an unrealistic fantasy about a golden age of yore. And I think of these folks as Nealists because their vision is really not based on, reality, it's based on, it's like retreating into a fantasy that is projected onto the past. Dear Canadian exporters, our ambitions, our ideas, and our potential were never meant to be boxed in. Nothing can contain us. With the support of export development Canada's market insights and financial solutions, you can turn obstacles into opportunities, discover new markets, and keep our nation front and center on the global stage. The world needs more Canada. Together, let's give it to them.

Visit edac.ca to learn more. All right, there are five groups in this book. There are funders. There are thinkers. There are sergeants. There are power players. And there are foot soldiers. Let's go through each one of them, okay?

Tell me what a funder is. So in this group, I pay a lot of attention to funders. There are a lot of very wealthy people in America, but only a sector have our funding this movement. So, you know, a lot of wealthy people really believe in democracy and are trying to defend it. But there is a sector of extremely wealthy oligarchs, I would call them, because there's been this sort of massive concentration of wealth over the last decades of the tippy top of the economic spectrum. And they are investing in anti-democratic projects.

I mean, I'm talking about people like, just to name a few names, Barryside, or the Kirkrys or Sean Filer, or Tim Dunn or the Wilkes Brothers or the DeVos Prince family juggernaut. Here's the thing about these folks. Some of them are evangelical. Some are Protestant. Some are Catholic. Some are Jewish. Some are frankly atheistic.

But they all agree. They tend to be more motivated by economic reasons than cultural reasons. Some of them are more culturally motivated than others. But some of them really don't seem to care at all about the culture wars that they're helping to fund because the culture wars are really just the shiny bibles to get the little people on board, right? They want no regulation for their businesses, especially if they're in environmentally businesses that are involved in any kind of environmental exploitation degradation. They want lower taxes for the rich. They say they believe some of them in free markets.

They just want capitalism and let the markets do their thing. The same time, they want protective policies for their monopolistic businesses, want privileged government contracts, and they want tax breaks. I'm looking at you, Elon Musk. So I think a lot of them, you know, some of them are really motivated by cultural reasons, too. They think we need to keep an unruly public in line with religion, but some of them just see the religious nationalism is the cost of doing business, right? Then I think about the thinkers, many of whom are associated with the new right, a movement that's, I would say less explicitly Christian nationalist and more explicitly anti-democratic. Some of them actually derive key ideas from Nazis, like the Nazi political theorist, Carl Schmidt, who came up with

this idea of what I would call the permanent state of emergency. We're in an apocalyptic threat, you know, because of liberalism and pluralism. And so the rules don't apply. We need a strong man who's going to take care of it for us. It's really kind of a, uh, a, uh, a disgraceful idea, very anti-democratic. Then I also pay a lot of attention to the sergeants, who are these very sort of political pastors, who play a really important role in turning out congregations to vote for anti-democratic candidates. And I pay a lot of attention to the power players, a sort of high-level strategist, people like Ralph Reed, and I would call Charlie Kirk now a high-level strategist or Bob McEwen of the Council for National Policy. They're sort of directing

the infrastructure of this movement. And finally the foot soldiers. And again, you know, a lot of these people, it's a very large, diverse group, ethnically diverse, frankly religiously diverse, too. And a lot of them have, you know, to some degree, I would say, you know, you've got a lot of evangelicals, you know, white evangelicals, very reliable. But the movement is drawing new energy from a sector of like Pentecostal and charismatic movements, which are both multiracial and transnational movements and also easily given over to sort of hard-right politics. And they've got a lot of different interests and ideas. You know, when you peel away some of the culture war stuff, they generally want a better

deal for themselves and for the workforce. But they're manipulated by, you know, movement leaders to vote for these culture wars that get them on board with the larger anti-democratic agenda. Yeah, I think you're explaining it beautifully, which is really the reason why I'm not interrupting you. I think that the problem I'm having is I think it's a problem you're having as you sort of express that you're having it in the book is that even if they get exactly what they want, it's never enough, constant crisis. And if they get exactly what they want, they're going to blow up the social fabric of the society.

So it'll end up in some kind of tumult, which will lead to less tolerance by every person. you know, look, if I'm Elon Musk and I'm worth $400 billion, I guess I need to be worth a trillion because I can spend that money. Of course, I can't spend the money. And then if it costs the weakening of the social contract and the social fabric of the society for me to plunder enough from the society to get to a trillion, I don't, I guess let me say it differently. I don't want to live in a Bob Wire security mansion, Catherine, while my fellow neighbor You don't? I don't.

He's going to take care of you. And how do you know, like, your staff isn't going to turn on you? I have, I've been to Latin America and the staff does turn on people there. Yeah. And so I guess what I'm saying is that, like, the whole thing is anti-Christian, the whole thing. So tell me what, you know, tell me what I'm missing. Tell me, you know, am I, I, I don't know. I think that big problem with your book and Tim Alberta's book is the disbelief.

You know, you've lived it, you've sat with these people, you've worked with them. And the reason I wanted to have you on the show is I want you to tell people who find this so illogical and find this so nonsensical that they actually don't believe it or they sweep it under the rug. I want you to break the glass, pull the fire alarm, and tell them why they should be concerned about what you're saying. Yeah, I mean, just look what's happening. You know, they're not just going to destroy the social fabric. They're going to destroy the economy. They're going to destroy our inter, they are destroying. I mean, how is the stock market doing with these needless trade wars?

Are they, they're going to raise the price of goods for everybody, you know? Think about the, they're destroying the international relations that have led to a measure of post-war stability. I mean, obviously not perfectly, but at least has sort of served in America's interests and led to certain kinds of non-nuclear, you know, non-proliferation agreements. And when it comes to nuclear weapons, they're destroying America's institutions. Trump is turning the Department of Justice into his own personal mob service. They're destroying consumer protection agencies. They're destroying, you know, Medicare. They're destroying institutions that Americans actually need and want.

they're keen on eliminating public education the way that we know of it. I think that this movement is fundamentally nihilistic. Their aim is to destroy rather than to create, you know, by their, I would say, by their actions rather than their actual words. For all of their religion talk, they're denying that there's any real value or truth in this world. They see the idea of truth is just another casualty in a political war. They don't mind spreading lies.

I actually think it's really important to pay attention. I've written my three books to try to warn people about this. What we're seeing, especially, I think, in our international, in the international realm, follows a classic pattern with the rise of authoritarian leaders. They need to channel their aggression and rage and the rage of their constituents on others. So, you know, authoritarianes have a long history of engaging in feudal expansionist projects and declaring war with people who who are formerly friendly neighbors. So, you know, when we look at what's happening to the NATO Alliance, to Canada, Greenland, they're falling victim to the same malevolent forces that are already attacking American democracy. Okay. It's very well said. The book is incredibly well researched, and hopefully we can all find a way forward. You put some prescriptions in the book related to that. What my producer and I do at the end of each of these podcasts is we come up with five words, and we pick them from your book and you've got to give us a reaction to these words. One word reaction or a sentence?

Okay. No, no. You're free form. We're going to freestyle here. All right, Catherine. You're good at taking directions, Catherine. I do notice that. I'm impressed.

Okay, are you ready? I say the word money. You say what? Bruligarchy. Yeah, wow. Okay, that's a really good one. I may steal that from you, actually. I'm writing that one down.

Yeah. I say the word religion. You say what? I mean, I can't do one word thing. Diverse. Diverse. Yeah. You can give me a couple words.

Because when I hear the word religion, I think compassion on one side. I think prayer and faith. But then I also think power. And I also think ideological struggle. Yes. Well, there you go. That's great. I think we should also think about what religious freedom really means.

You know, religious freedom is the right and the freedom to worship any God or sacred idea or none. It's the freedom to worship if you want to, but the freedom from religious coercion and the freedom from having to, you know, basically support another faith, particularly a faith that holds you in contempt with your money if you don't want to. And this is a movement that, you know, I think right now we're seeing in the Trump administration the sort of big moves that are more sort of a consequence. of new right ideology. I think they're laying the groundwork for the sort of Christian nationalist agenda which will be coming next.

Power. I say the word power. Wow. This is a movement that worships power. They worship power. That's why I want it. They want power. They want power. They crave it.

They crave it. Okay. I say the word authoritarian. I think about the new alliances that Trump seems to be drawn to in alliance. There was, I think, a piece very recently that showed he's more allied in terms of his ideas of leadership with Russia and Turkey. I mean, you know, and you look at the way Russia and Turkey exploit religion for politics and power. You could describe their countries as theocratic in a certain fake sense and that there's an official

religion and, you know, or Iran. Let's look at Iran. Their laws are based on their holy text, supposedly, a certain interpretation of them. But they're more accurately described as cronyist kleptocracies with absolute suppression of free speech and no tolerance for political opposition. And that's, I believe, what America is, it could be headed to if the, I would say, the majority of us sort of democracy-loving folks don't step up. Okay. And the next and last word, democracy. Democracy is worth fighting for, you know, the principles of equality, the idea of a government of the people, for the people, and by the people. The idea that our laws should be deliberated in public, that our laws should apply equally to all. The idea that, you know, power should be held

to account is really vital. It's fragile, but it's also really beautiful. I mean, there's a democracy has laid the foundations for, you know, innovation. and stability and freedoms that never perfectly applied, but, you know, we've by and large enjoyed. The great irony in your book is that the democracy has allowed these people to have this movement. The democracy has allowed these people to be who they are, and as a result of which they want to take that away from other people. And that's one of the big messages that you put into this book, which I really greatly admire. Thank you. Thank you so much. So I really appreciate you joining us.

The title of the book is Money, Lies in God. For me, the Unholy Trinity, inside the movement to destroy American democracy. Thank you so much, Catherine Stewart, for joining us on Open Book. Thank you so much. What a great book in conversation with Catherine. And as I said, Money Lies in God, the Unholy Trinity. it turns out that why religion can be a wonderful thing for people and very soothing and help us deal with our grief and help us feel faith and purpose in our lives. It can also be used as a device to gain power and gain power over others.

And so the great irony is that Christian nationalism is in a country that believes in free speech, a country that believes in the freedom of religion. and frankly, several hundred years ago, people left Europe like the Pilgrims and others, the Quakers, et cetera, to come to the United States to be able to express and practice their religion freely, not to be corralled and have religious ideas imposed upon them. So this is a great irony of the society we're living in now, and Catherine does a wonderful exposition of what happened, why it happened, and frankly, if you disagree with it, which I do, what we can do to change it. Go out and buy our book.

All right, you sound good. You want to come on the podcast now? You're feeling good? No, I can't. All right, you're ready? All right, you ready? Okay, Ma, so I had a guest on that was talking about the evangelical Christian right. You know, those people that come on, the infomercials on a Sunday?

Yeah, well, Sal was an Angelica. All right. So what do you think of this, Ma? What do you think of the religious evangelical movement? I think it's a cult. You think it's a cult, right? You don't like it, right? It's a recruiting religion.

They recruit people. Okay. And so you disagree with the philosophy, right? They got the weakness. They go to the weakness. They go to weakness in people. Okay, so you don't like it. And people that are poor, too.

All right, but you're a Catholic. You're a Catholic, Ma. You go to church all the time. The Catholics don't do that, or the Catholics are okay? They don't do that at all. It's crazy. They have to get baptized with their clothes on in a tub. Okay.

I know the religion. All right. So you don't like the evangelicals. movement, but you do think that they try to impose their religion on other people. Am I right or wrong? Yeah. Right. You're right. And they carry the Bible with them to let you know that they're so good. They're not good. Some of them are evil. I really do love you, Ma. Okay, just don't ever change, Ma. I know you, I know you're 88. How can I change? No, I mean, 88 years old. Why would you change now? Why would you change perfection, Mom? And the operating software and the algorithm, why would you change it now when it's so beautifully rendered? Why would you change it, right? Thank you.

All right. All right. I love you, Ma. Thank you for joining. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was Open Book. Thank you so much for listening. If you like what you hear, tell your friends, and make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. While you're there, please leave us a rating or review.

If you want to connect with me or chat more about the discussions, it's at Scaramucci on X or Instagram. I'd love to hear from you. I'll see you back here next week. When a country's productivity cycle is broken, people feel it in their paychecks, their communities, their futures. What does this mean for individuals, communities, and businesses across the country?

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