Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - Historian: America's Origin Story Is A Lie - Craig Fehrman - Craig Fehrman

Episode Date: April 21, 2026

Today's guest spent five years digging through archives to uncover the real story of Lewis and Clark — and what he found will completely change the way you think about America's origin. Craig Fehrman is a journalist, a historian, and the author of The Vast Enterprise, and I'm telling you right now, this is one of the most fascinating conversations we've had on Open Book. Craig Fehrman, a journalist and historian, spent five years writing and researching This Vast Enterprise. His first book, Author in Chief, was described by Thomas Mallon in The Wall Street Journal as “one of the best books on the American presidency to appear in recent years.” Congrats on the book launch, Craig. Go out and get this amazing new book, This Vast Enterprise: A New History of Lewis & Clark here: https://amzn.to/4cnR3Mw Anthony Scaramucci is the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge, a global alternative investment firm, and founder and chairman of SALT, a global thought leadership forum and venture studio. Pre-order my next book, All the Wrong Moves: How Three Catastrophic Decisions Led to the Rise of Trump, out on the 17th of September in the UK and the 22nd of September in the US: ⁠https://www.scaramucci.net/allthewrongmoves Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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so I can stress less during tax season or any season. Plan started just $12 a month. Learn more at tellus.com slash online security. No one can prevent all cybercrime or identity theft. Conditions apply. These are complex people. I don't want to cancel these people. I just find that this is stupidity. That was the time that they lived in. You're driving around in a car, okay? You're spewing fossil fuel.

Some day there's going to be clean energy, 300 years from now. They're going to put a shroud over your statue. They're going to be like, who were these guys? Okay, what the hell were they doing, ruining the earth like that? I totally agree. My view is it's not a historian's job to say, these are the heroes, these are the bad guys. My job is to put you in the canoe, show you what Jefferson cared about, show you what Lewis cared about, then you make up your mind. Welcome to Open Book. I am your host, Anthony Scaramucci. Joining us today is Craig Fairman. He is a journalist and a historian and is out with a new incredible book, The Vast Enterprise, a new

history of Lewis and Clark. I mean, lots of, I mean, it's hard to imagine, okay? I thought everything that could have been written, was written about Lewis and Clark, but you have uncovered so much more new information. So before we get in the book, I'd like to, our viewers and listeners know a little bit about you, Craig. Tell us about your background. Welcome to the show and congratulations on this awesome book. Sure. Well, thanks for saying all that and thanks for having me. I'm talking to you guys from Indiana today. That's where I live. That's where I grew up. And so I went to grad school at Yale and I actually went to be an English professor because I just love books and I love stories. But while I was in grad school, I found a few small archival things and I was like,

this is really fun. It's kind of almost like a detective story. You get that charge, that thrill of finding new things. And so what I love about my job now is I can kind of combine both. I can tell big stories and I can try to find new things. And this book on Lewis and Clark was the best synthesis I've ever had in my career. It's probably our best American epic. It's such a great story, but I was also able to find so many new things and bring those together and hopefully an engaging way. So, I mean, this is the quintessential mid-century American story. Okay, so tell us why I'm saying that, early century, I'd say early 19th century American story. Tell our views and listeners why I'm saying that.

Sure. I really think, and this ties into sort of being in the middle of America's 250th birthday, too, that this is just one of the best stories, maybe the best story to understand America at the start. Because what you have to remember is Lewis and Clark leave in 1804. That's a while after the revolution and the declaration and all that stuff. But America wasn't finished yet. The White House wasn't finished. there were chunks of plaster falling out of the ceiling. The country wasn't finished either.

So America was 30 years later just starting to figure out what it could be. So I think of Lewis and Clark as our first act of foreign policy. I think of Lewis and Clark as our first big kind of research project, our first sort of proto-NASA attempt to understand the world around us. Lewis and Clark was a chance for Americans to do what Americans do best, and also in a few cases to do what we don't always do best. But that's why it's a good story. It's got everything you would want in terms of humanity, morality,

excitement, action. And, you know, listen, you did five years of research on this. Okay, so tell us why you have this passion about Lewis and Clark. Well, when I started looking for my new book, I knew I wanted to tell an action story, and Lewis and Clark was probably where my mind went first. I mean, when you think of American epics, that's where you go. But I didn't want to write a book that just recapitulated what other books had said, because there's been a lot of great writing about the expedition.

So I went to the journals. The journals are probably the best thing about Lewis and Clark. They're more than a million words recorded in real time from different perspectives on what they saw and what they did. And as I read the journals, I only know half of the story. Let me give you a quick example. When I was reading early in the journals, before they even left St. Louis, there's just this one little line from Clark where he says, York commenced sawing with a whipsaw. York was the black man that Clark enslaved, and he was on the whole expedition too.

And I just thought, like, well, what does that line mean? What's a whip saw do? Well, it makes planks. It's a really complicated tool to use correctly. Planks put roofs on huts. They build beds. They really needed these planks. Well, why did they pick York?

There were dozens of white soldiers around there. It's because York was skilled. So York was so skilled, how did that affect his relationship to Clark? How did he fit in the unit? From this one little detail in the journals that's always been there for people to kind of pluck out, I was able to understand so much about York's story, York's contributions. And so once I started seeing these kind of human moments and realized that there was a lot more story to tell,

in addition to talking about, Lewis and Clark too. I was like, okay, this is worth spending five years of my life on because I got to get this story right. This story matters to so many Americans. So I felt an obligation to tell it the whole story. Vast enterprise. It comes from Jefferson's phrase. It's a Clark letter to Jefferson. Clark letter to Jefferson. So tell us about what he meant. And tell us why you made that the title of the book. Sure. Well, I think a lot of us, when we picture Lewis and Clark, we just picture Lewis and Clark, right? Like, that's even the, even the signs you see all over the American West, the highway signs are like those brown signs with a white silhouette and it's just two guys on it. But to me, the expedition was always about way more than just the two guys at the top. And what's important is that Lewis and Clark saw this too. This isn't me imposing some kind of modern view on this. When Clark wrote to Jefferson, he was like, I'm happy to join, quote, this vast enterprise. Clark knew it was going to be big, not just in terms of geography. They were going to cross a continent. He knew it was going to take a lot of people. He knew it was going to take a lot of people. And he was going to take a lot of people. He was. He knew, and a lot of hard work.

And so my book tried to capture everybody, not just Lewis and Clark, but the working class soldiers who are standing in the freezing river trying to tow the canoes, the native people who kind of have their own agendas and their own priorities. I tried to bring everybody in.

This is an ensemble. And those are my favorite kinds of stories, not just a star at the top, but a story where lots of human beings are kind of clashing and conflicting and coming together. Jefferson funds this, right? Oh, yeah.

That's one of the things that's new in my book is that the expedition was just so, expensive. If you sort of adjust for percentages, America's federal government spent as much on Lewis and Clark as we spend on NASA today. So it was a huge expense on government resources, and it was hard for Jefferson to get it funded. This doesn't really need much explanation because of the world we live in now. But Washington in 1804 was a very partisan place. There were two sides. They hated each other, and pretty much any idea from one side was going to be opposed by the other side. So even though Lewis and Clark seems all-American, seems like something everybody would want, Jefferson's

political opponents despised this idea and did everything they could to stop him. The fact that Jefferson was able to work this through Congress, it's sort of like the power broker. It was kind of like a Robert Cairo's story, but set in 1804. And my book's the first one to tell that story. If you could go back in time and you could interview Lewis, Clark, or Jefferson, what would be some of the things you would want to talk to them about? What are some of the things you would say, hey, wow, this was amazing.

coming to you from 250 years later, under 50 years later. This is amazing. Yeah, that would be such an amazing opportunity. I think with Jefferson, I would probably try to pin him a little down a little bit more about what exactly he wanted the expedition to do and in what time frame. Because Jefferson is such a great writer that he almost seems to shift letter to letter. His writing is so evocative, but it's not always precise. And you can see this in his relationship to race and all kinds of. of other things too, but I would sort of try to understand more, you know, what precisely he wanted

the expedition to do. Because my reading, based on reconstructing it from these letters, is that he kind of wanted the expedition to do everything. You know, we think about how hard it was for Lewis and Clark to go 8,000 miles and deal with rapids and mountains and all that, but Jefferson's sort of research checklist for them was just overwhelming. And it's just, it's amazing how many things he wanted them to do. So I would, I would ask Jefferson a little bit more pointedly, you know, like what exactly where you were imagining. And then I guess I would ask Lewis and Clark, you know, I would ask them about their relationship with their soldiers especially. Because one thing I thought it was really interesting that I found with sort of hints was that Lewis and Clark picked a different way to be

military leaders. This was very much a military mission. But in this time period, most officers would just kind of beat their men and ask questions later. It was a very violent time. Lewis and Clark chose to do things in a more democratic and kind of progressive way, not in terms of political terms or anything like that, but just in terms of, you know, they let them in vote on things. They let them in participate. And I thought that was such an interesting choice in terms of leadership. And I would love to ask them, you know, what was your idea there? Was that just sort of necessity or did you guys have a theory? Whatever the reasons, it worked out. So you found Clark's College Notebook. That's right. It turns out he was a bad speller, right? He didn't really, you know,

he didn't have that going on for him. But how did that change your view of him? Well, it's, I'm glad you bring this up because it's a really key detail. Nobody else even knows that Clark went to college. Like if you read the other books, there's just a joke about his spelling and they kind of move on. Lewis is the brainy one, right? And Lewis definitely was brainy. There's no question that he was kind of the scientist on the mission. But Clark was an enlightenment thinker too. And so I found Clark's college notebook and I found a biography written by somebody way back in the 19th century who was a family friend. And this person talked about Clark going to college. And so when you're a historian, And, you know, you find these documents and it's exciting, but you have several steps where you want to vet it.

So I went to some professors and colleges and sort of shared what I had found with them. And it's so cool. They know this stuff so well. Then I was like, when I was like, this is the astronomy textbook that Clark was reading. They said, okay, well, that means he probably went to William and Mary. That's how well they know this time period, which is great. But they didn't know that Clark went to college. And so if we understand that, you know, yeah, he was a bad speller, I'm going to give him this, cut him some slack here.

He didn't have spell check. He didn't have air conditioning. You know, he's doing the best. can. But even though his spelling was bad, his ideas were really complicated. And so like Jefferson, he thought that the expedition was an attempt to sort of change a region, remake a region, sort of be America's first attempted regime change and sort of cultivating this vast stretch of country that was full of people, but people who, from the American point of view, could change and develop. And those are ideas Clark learned in college.

Thank you for tuning in an open book. And if you haven't already, please hit the subscribe button below so that you're the first to know when our new episodes drop each week. We've got a lot more coming. And now back to the show. Okay. So again, fascinating about this book or some of the forgotten figures. So I want to talk about John Ordway for a second. Sure. And his impact on this exploration. Yeah. Well, when I wrote this book, I sort of, if anybody has read Game of Thrones, that might be the best analogy here. Each chapter rotates to a different point of view. So, You know, chapter one starts with Lewis. Chapter 3 is Jefferson.

We get the main people, too. But also some of the chapters rotate the people that you might not have heard of or might not have thought of. And John Ordway is one of them. It's really important to include him because he was a working class guy from New Hampshire, and his experience of the expedition was totally different than the captains. The captains were both wealthy elites. Like we said, Clark went to college. So these are people from the very, the 1% of American society.

John Ordway was not. So his experience, first of all, shows how hard the regular men had to work. The detail that always sticks with me is when they were towing their canoes against the current in the Missouri. They would lean forward to grab bushes just to get leverage. One time one of the soldiers leaned forward grabbed a bush and pulled, and instead he pulled out a rattlesnake in his hand. Somehow he didn't get bit. It's just an unbelievable detail. So that was the life of the soldiers, but Ordway also cared so much about land.

He was poor, which is why he was a soldier. And so he's on the Missouri seeing all this beautiful land around him. And you can sort of understand what potential for a farm might mean to a working class person in this time. So there's an enslaved man that you're writing about in this book by the name of York. You know, you've helped to raise the attention, actually, of this person. So tell us who York was. I think, I mean, am I saying this right? I would call him a slave of Clark's, right?

No, that's exactly right. Clark freed him, but more than a decade after the expedition. So York spent the vast majority of his life. enslaved by the Clark family. York was about the same age as Clark, and so they grew up together, but, you know, there are so many examples from enslaved people in this period talking about this, that, you know, once you turn 8, 9, 10, the kids start getting treated like adults when they're enslaved. And so they have to go do the hard work, and they start to realize, well, my life isn't like this other person's life at all. And so York was there every step of the way. And he was,

it was a difficult and complicated relationship for him. Clark was a difficult owner. Clark beat his slaves. Clark participated fully in the institution of American slavery. But it was really important for me in telling this story to not just talk about Clark as somebody who is enslaved, but to talk about him as an explorer. I found these new documents that make it really clear that York was one of the best people in a canoe on the entire expedition. He was a great swimmer, which might not seem like much today, but in the 19th century, a lot of people did not know how to swim, which it's kind of hard to wrap your mind around it today. You're on the Lewis and Clark expedition and you can't swim. Why are you even here, but that happened a lot. So when they hit the worst rapids, they needed their best

swimmers and their best paddlers to get the boats through. And York was one of those people. So in multiple ways, we can see, you know, there are just little mentions of him like that whipsaw or like these new letters I found. But we can see that York wasn't just somebody who was there to take care of Clark. He was there to explore and he ended up becoming one of the most important members of the entire expedition. I read Ambrose's book, Daunted Curse, got to be about almost 30 years ago. And I thought, okay, this is a fascinating story. But again, I read it 30 years ago, forgive me. But my impression after reading your book is there was some hagiography in his book and there was some simplicity to his book.

It was more about the adventure and less about the complexity of the personalities. You know, I didn't remember in the book, for example, how volatile Lewis was. And so I want you to compare. I can interest your book because I'm sure you've read all. undaunted courage. And then let's talk a little bit about Lewis, whose death almost certainly was from suicide, more or less. I think you accept that. Absolutely. And so compare your book to Ambrose. Tell us about Lewis and the volatility and also the weirdness about his strengths were also his weaknesses. Sure. Well, first, let's be clear, Ambrose's book is an American classic. I have

friends who still say, you know, that's my favorite book of history ever written. So it's, it's a wonderful book. It's a compelling. Great narrative. He was a great writer. Yeah, for, for no doubt. But there were, they donated because of him to what was the D-Day Museum in New Orleans. And then it became the World War II Museum. I went to see him speak at the New York Historical Society. And my uncle was in D-Day. And so he was forming the D-Day Museum after he wrote that book. Yeah. No. After that segue, you'll let you know how, I mean, this was an important guy. I read most of his books, including Eisenhower. No, he's an important eye to so many readers and lovers of American history.

And, you know, we don't need to take that away. That is all absolutely true. But there's two things I would say about my book compared to his book. The first is that there's just a little bit of a different focus. I feel like when Ambrose wrote, it was very much kind of a man versus nature story. So, yes, he would talk about the mountains and the rapids. And that stuff's in my book, too. But to me, what makes the expedition so fascinating are the huge.

human beings. I always think human beings are the most interesting thing of all. And so I think my story is not man versus nature so much as it's man versus man. So the captains versus their soldiers, the Americans versus the natives, trying to sort of get that human complexity you're talking about. And I would also just say that, and this is not Ambrose's fault, but there was, he didn't have the scholarship that I had. So when I say people tell half the story, you know, the native people show up in his book and he, to his credit, writing back in the 1990s, is honest about, you know, Americans took their land. He doesn't pretend that that didn't happen. But he's not able to get inside the native point of view. He's not able to make the native people seem like their own characters. They're just

sort of supporting characters who show up and go away. I was able to draw on decades of scholarship and the new documents I found and interviews I did with native people to kind of make this a story with two sides. And I just think that's a better story. You know, when I think of my favorite stories, it's always where both sides of the equation are really interesting and nuance. That's what I tried to do in this book. So undaunted courage, if that's how you came to love Lewis and Clark, that's great. But I still think you're going to find a lot new in my book, and I think you can compliment. You mentioned the Game of Thrones. I mean, this book reads like a nonfiction book. The characters are rich. The story is there. The earth is untended. And there's a brilliant

story here about the wealth transfer on the Native Americans, frankly, that we're living in this area. There's a little bit of a morality thing here as well, but there's a wealth transfer going on between the European settlers and the Native Americans that's also in the book. So when you talk about Game of Thrones, everything is in here, Craig. This is why we wanted to get you on to talk about all this stuff. And speaking of Native Americans, you draw on some of the oral histories, the indigenous oral histories alongside of the traditional archives. Why was that so important to you? And how does it change in your mind what we consider to be the historical truth here about the exploration? Sure. I think I'll just kind of give you a case study because

these issues are really complicated, but my sort of operating idea is that oral history, written history, people want to pit them together, but they work best in conversation. So let me give example, that also happens to be the coolest thing I found during my research, probably the coolest thing I'll ever find in my career. I found this interview with a guy named Wolfcalf, who was a blackfoot man. And it was, we know it's a really good source. It was written by a historian who was meeting with him in the 1890s when Wolfcaf was very old. And you can tell from the way the historian was writing that he just like was trying to write this down in real time. And so Wolfcalf as a young man, way back in 1806, met with Lewis. And the Blackfoot and the Americans ended up having a battle.

That was the word that Wolfcaf used. And this is something that is one of the probably two most famous encounters with native people that Lewis and Clark had. It certainly shows up in Ambrose's book. But all historians have sort of taken the American point of view on this and said, the Blackfoot were trying to steal our guns. And let's be honest. If somebody's trying to take your guns, you're very within your rights to fight back, to try to get your guns, to try to protect yourselves.

And that's what the Americans were doing. But Wolfcaf's interview says something different. Wolfcaf's perspective is different. He says we were trying to take their horses, not their guns. And that honestly lines up with all the best scholarship on the Blackfoot people, stuff done by the Smithsonian and other institutions. But here's the key thing. And this is what I mean about them working best in conversation. Once I read Wolfcaf's interview, I went back to Lewis's journal. And I noticed something that nobody had seen before that honestly I hadn't seen before, which is that the first half of Lewis's account of this battle, Lewis wasn't awake. He was relying on the testimony of an American soldier. And this American soldier fell asleep on the job, literally. He was supposed to be on watch. He fell asleep. So he was the person who killed one of the native people. And what you really come down to is not Lewis's words versus Wolfcaf's words,

but this soldier's words versus Wolfcaf's words. And this soldier has a very vested interest in making the Blackfoot seem dangerous because otherwise Lewis is going to court-martial him or get him in trouble. You know, falling asleep on watch is a capital crime in this time period. So having these oral sources, having these written sources, bringing them together, they can kind of illuminate each other, but I never would have gone down this journey and sort of reinterpreted this moment

if I hadn't had Wolfcaf's perspective first. So that's why it's important for me to bring it all together and then still do the historian's work, which is to evaluate all your sources. What can we tell for sure? What is sort of more in the maybe category? A historian has to be rigorous for all sources,

but a historian should also look at all sources. Listen, I mean, you capture it better than I can, and I'm grateful to you. And also, you wrote another book about the presidents and their writing of books. And I guess I didn't get a chance to read that book, but it made me think about your own writing. As you're reflecting about your own writing, I believe the title of it was author in chief. That's right. How did the process teach you about how historical myths get manufactured?

Well, it's interesting with presidents. That book sort of looked at the books presidents wrote. and I spent a lot of times in archives for that one too. And so many of the books written by presidents are our best source to understand presidents as young people. Like I still think about Harry Truman's memoirs all the time and how when he would talk about his childhood, his love of history in high school, how much he loved reading about the lives of great people in the past. You know, that's historian David McCullough's book on Truman still use that material today. So presidents are so good about talking about their personal relationship, their patriotism, all that stuff. But then, of course, the closer you get to real power, that's when you start to get the president's side of the story and not everybody's side of the story.

If you read Harry Truman's account of why he dropped the atomic bomb, you're going to be left wanting more information because Truman just isn't able to be as honest as you might want. So that was my main takeaway from that, that books by presidents can have real value and that they've been really important throughout American history. But also, you know, when presidents talk about big decisions, you're sometimes getting their spin. But then sometimes spin is interesting, right? Like, if you can see why Harry Truman takes this perspective, you understand something about him, even if that perspective can't be treated as, you know, infallible. Down of the five words. Ready? Let's do it.

So here are the five words. I'm going to give you the word. You're going to give me a sentence or two about that word. And my producer and I pluck these from your book. Okay. Okay. So when I say the word history, you say what? Complicated in human stories that still feel relevant today.

Okay. I'm going to mispronounce her name and I see her on my my U.S. dollar coins now. So is it Sagawaya? It's actually pronounced a lot of different ways. I say Saka Jua, but there are lots of valid ways to say. Saka Juaia. So who was she? She was somebody who was asleep. And I think we see her on the dollar coin and we think of her as a friendly tour guide and she was that. But she had a really hard life. And one of the new things I do in this book is sort of described how she was abused, sexual. violence. She was impregnated. But that just makes her more inspiring. She had these really tough years. And then she realized, if I can be that friendly guy, the captains will protect me. I can protect them. And I can make it hundreds of miles back to my people. She pulled it off. She was an explorer too. And she's an amazing human. Sorry, that's more than one sentence. But you get me talking about Sacaga, Julia. I'm going to go all day. I wanted to bring her up because

he's a big part of this. Yeah, she's amazing. She was left out in the beginning. And you, You've made her, you fleshed her out from me. Thank you. Thomas Jefferson. Complicated, an inspiring figure. Somebody who like most politicians, we don't necessarily want to pay attention to what he says. We want to pay attention to what he does. And the Lewis and Clark expedition is a great example of his values because it's what he tried to do.

I mean, these are complex people. I mean, you know, I mean, I don't want to cancel these people. I mean, I just find that this is stupidity. That was the time that they lived in. we're going to get, Craig, you're driving around in a car, okay? You're spewing fossil fuel. That's true. Some day there's going to be clean energy, 300 years from now, they're going to put a shroud over your statue.

They're going to be like, who were these guys? Okay, what the hell were they doing ruining the earth like that, right? I mean, so we're totally, you know, I totally agree. It's, it's, my view is it's not a historian's job to say, these are the heroes, these are the bad guys. My job is to put you in the canoe. Show you what Jefferson cared about. Show you what Lewis cared about. Then you made up your mind.

You did that brilliantly. Thank you. So much so I'm looking forward to your next work. Okay, let's go to my last two words. You ready, empire. I say the word empire. You say what? I say that there were lots of empires in 1804.

America had an empire, France had an empire, Spain had an empire. But the Lakota had an empire too. These native nations were the real sources of power on the Missouri River, and that's why this story is a complicated game of Thrones one, because you have lots of huge, powerful nations with really smart people in charge, Black Buffalo versus Jefferson. They're all coming together. They all want land.

They want the same things. how's it going to go? That's that kind of mysteries at the core of my book. Okay. I'm going to say the last two words and then give you the last word, Lewis and Clark. Two people I love. I mean, just amazing Americans who gave everything they had. They sacrificed so much for their country and for what they believed in. They weren't perfect people. They were different people. Let's go there. One thing that I think is important when you write this kind of book is you don't want to talk too much about, you know, this is what everybody in the time period believed. Because back then, just like today, people believe different things. So Lewis was much less interested in slavery than Clark was. Even these two best friends, these two heroes working together, they had different views on slavery.

So the right thing to do is try to understand how each person saw the world in their own terms, in their own time. But yeah, Lewis and Clark, two incredibly courageous and fascinating human beings who loved their country and gave it everything they had. Listen, you wrote an amazing book. The title of the book is The Vast Enterprise, A New History of Lewis and Clark. Thank you so much for joining us on the show. What are you going to do next? Greg, you got something in the works yet or not yet? I think I'd like to write a book about one person.

This one, the cast is so big. It's vast in Clark's words. So maybe I can find a book about one person and sort of get deeper into one person's head. But in this one, at least, I love the ensemble. I love bringing all these voices together. Don't pick a schizophrenic. You know, we have some schizophrenics in Washington. Pick a person that is,

a little easy to read. I wouldn't want to write about somebody if I didn't like them. So yeah, it's going to be somebody I could get along with. All right. Well, I really appreciate you being on, sir. Thank you. My pleasure. Have a good one. Rosen lasagna, medium power. 15 minutes. Sounds like Ojo time. Let's

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