Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - Is Donald Trump Tired Of Winning? Ask Jonathan Karl

Episode Date: December 20, 2023

This week, Anthony talks with veteran Washington reporter Jonathan Karl. Jonathan’s new book Tired of Winning explores how Donald Trump has wrecked the Grand Old Party and remade it in his own image. Together they discuss Trump’s campaign for “revenge,” his transition from disgraced to the dominant force, yet again, and what a second Trump presidency would mean for American democracy.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is Open book where I talk with some of the brightest minds out there about everything surrounding the written word from authors and historians to figures and entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe, wherever you get your podcast, and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the parts you're enjoying or how we can do better.

You know, I can roll with the punches, so let me know. Anyways, let's get to it. Retribution and revenge. Two words that define Trump's 2024 presidential campaign. Jonathan Carl is a Washington veteran, and he joins me to discuss his new book, Tired of Winning, Donald Trump, and the end of the grand old party. How has Trump changed since 2015? Where does he stand politically now?

What would a Trump 2.0 really look like? And how much time do we have to save the Republican Party and America? Let's see what Jonathan has to say on today's show. So we're joining us now on Open Book is Jonathan Carl. He's a bestselling author, but he's also an amazing television host. He's the chief Washington correspondent for ABC News. And here's the book, Tired of Winning, which I read the book. I read your other book, too.

Your other book was a little bit more painful because, unfortunately, I was in the other book. This book is a lot less painful for me, John. But first of all, thank you so much for joining us. Before I get into the book, I'm dying to ask you a question. Sure. Which I've actually been dying to ask you for like the last six or seven years. Okay, so you're ready? Yep, I'm ready.

The first question that I purposefully asked the CNN correspondent, the first question in the Brady press room. So the afternoon that I got my job and Prebus was trying to stop me from getting it, Bannon was stabbing me in the back all night. Yeah. Sean Spicer resigned from his job in protest. But I went to CNN first because they had not been called on in about three months. You may recall that. So purposefully, I did that. My second question was to you.

Do you remember what you asked me? Yeah, I think I asked you about something horrible you had said about Trump. Yes, exactly. So you were listening. Sorry. I mean, I was just, you know, it was just fantastic. This is why this is a great podcast. So you proceeded to list the things that I said about him.

I said he was the president of the Queen's Bulley Association. I had some great lines that I when I was zipping Trump working for Bush. Yeah. And don't worry, this is an audio podcast, so nobody can see the shade of red that you're going, Jonathan Carl. So that's fine. But you were ripping into me at the podium and I'm a big boy. So I took it and I tried to flip it and spin it.

And but I think you thanked me for reminding everybody of the thing who said. I did. I said, I'm glad you got that out there because rather than having to hear that every day in the office. Of course, I didn't realize I was only going to stay for 11 days, but we got it out of the way. But the question I'm dying to ask you, because you've been around Washington and journalism a long time and you know the nature of the people. It wasn't just me. There was a very large group of people, Mike Pompeo, Ted Cruz, Kellyanne Conway. We could find tapes of, I would say, 50 people that worked in the Trump administration that said nasty things about Donald Trump prior to working in the administration. And then yet all of them

went into the administration. Some of them came out of the administration, not saying anything, but a lot of them returned to the nastiness, myself included. And so I want to ask you this, before we get into your book, why did it manifest like that? What is it about human nature, behavior in Washington? What is it about guys like Kevin McCarthy who absolutely hated Donald Trump and could have put him away lights out on January 7th of 2021, but feared him. And now, because of his lack of backbone, he lost the speakership and he wasn't able to corral his troops. So you tell me, what is it about people? And by the way, it doesn't reflect well on me, right? Because I had a opinion of him. And I said, okay, I sucked it up. Team player went to go work for him. But it was

the wrong thing for many of us to do. Why do you think people do that? Well, I think there are a variety of reasons. And this is what I'm about to say probably does not apply to you. I'm rather certain it wouldn't. But I think that for a lot of people, the ones that work for him and the ones who totally flipped when they did is there was something about getting inside his orbit. And the way he, you know, Trump is a guy that can make you feel like you are the king in the world in one moment, in the very next moment, make you feel like you are crap and nothing and worse than nothing, less than nothing.

But that he does undoubtedly have that magnetism. And with the elected officials, I've seen. it where they, you know, they appear at a public event with Trump. They appear to rally with Trump. And they've never seen a crowd like that before as riled up and as fired up and as responsive to what they're saying when they're saying something in praise of the dear leader. And I, you know, I saw that over and over again. I mean, I saw, you know, Chuck Grassley, for God's sake, at a rally, you remember there was like a brief like five minutes where it looked like Grassley was going to have a potentially a tough re-election, a race in 2022.

And Trump goes out to Sioux City, not Sioux Falls, by the way, Sue City. And there's Grassley. And Grassley's been senator, you know, for, you know, for a half century. For viewers that don't know who John is talking about, he's George Washington's grandfather. He's 700 years old. Yeah. And he's been in the Senate for like 800 of the 700 years, right? We both know that.

And he's like, I mean, the guy is a farmer. and he's been elected over and over and over and over again. And he's, you know, he's, he makes Joe Biden look like a young man. But for him to walk out on that stage with Trump, I mean, suddenly, and Grassley's not a Trump guy at all. Right. But, you know, there it is. And suddenly he's raising the, you know, so I have my own view.

I think that, you know, for me, and by the way, my wife hates Trump almost as much as Melania hates him. So, you know, that's a very high standard of hatred. Wow. That is something. Yeah, that is something. It almost got me divorced. But I did it for ego-based reasons, ultimately. If I'm being honest, again, doesn't reflect well on me. And I had this conversation with Robert Green, who was on our show about three months ago, celebrating the 25th anniversary of the 48 laws of power. A lot of it's ego-based, unfortunately. And so we're here now. This is a great book, tired of winning. It picks up from where betrayal ended. And by the way, this would be in phenomenal miniseries. I don't know if that's something in the works or not because both these books are, they read as political thrillers would read.

You want to turn the page to the next page. Even though I know the story, you are providing insight that none of us actually saw even when we were on the ground. Did you think that Donald Trump would end up consuming this much of your time back when you were covering him? I mean, absolutely not. And remember, I had covered him when I was a New York Post reporter in the 1990s. You know, I mean, he was the kind of guy he could call on a slow news day, you know, and hey, what do you think of something? And you get some kind of a story. He was always willing to play ball. Never really took him particularly serious except as kind of, you know, an entertaining side show. So I certainly didn't think that. And then as I was covering his campaign, and I did the first network interview with him of the 2016 cycle. I did the interview actually in 2013, August of 2013 when he made a, you know, a trip to Iowa. And he. And he. He did the first network interview with him. And he. He did the interview actually. And he. He did the interview actually. And he. And he. And he. And he. And he. he spoke at the leader conference with, you know, I think it was Vanderplats and that whole crowd of evangelicals was not particularly well received. At that point, Ted Cruz was the, you know,

seemed to be the guy. But I did an interview with them out there and, you know, and I remember we were trying to figure out, should we do the interview? And if we do, where do we put it in the show? And, you know, we ended up doing it for five minutes in the second half of the show. This is our Sunday show, you know, this week. And it was a slow August. I mean, I did not think that this was going to be anything like this. You know, I mean, frankly, I didn't think he was going to end up at the White House. But then, you know, when I wrote betrayal, I really felt that would be the last thing I would ever write about Donald Trump. There's so much to write. I mean, I mean, this is, this is such a colorful story? There's a Greek tragedy in this story. Yep. Is America, and I mean the nation,

is America a protagonist in this story? And what I mean by that is, are we tired of winning? Are we going to defeat Donald Trump in 2024? I mean, this is something I address in the book as I try to conclude after I tell the story of Trump's final weeks in office because there were so much information that has come out and that I was able to learn beyond what I had done even in betrayal. You know, part of it, all the sworn testimony from the January 6th committee that had not seen light. I mean, still this is the first time a lot of that stuff had seen. seen light, but also those, what I call the dark days in Mar-a-Lago when, I guess now we hear from Liz Cheney, Kevin wasn't, I mean, Kevin was concerned that Trump wasn't even eating. But he was a depressed mess who found some solace in becoming an amateur DJ on the patio there at

Mar-a-Lago. This did not seem like a guy that was in any way making a comeback. But the question is, why the appeal, why did he come back? Is it real? I mean, I go through at some length how the Republican party and Donald Trump himself have actually been doing nothing but losing since 2016. I mean, all the, you know, the off-year elections, the midterm elections, the special elections, the runoff elections, where Republicans close to Trump either have just simply lost or wildly underperformed. And where Trump himself obviously lost in 2020 and didn't just lose the election. I mean, and the massive loss in the popular vote, which was much greater than the loss in the electoral college.

But all those losses in court, all those losses in his efforts to try to get Congress to overturn the results. His failed attempt to get his vice president to do something, has failed to attempt to pressure local Republicans in Georgia and Arizona and Michigan and Pennsylvania to do something. I mean, this guy's, I mean, Anthony, I had a working title for this book when I first started working on it, which was the biggest loser. But then something really strange happened. He ends up becoming once again the dominant figure in the Republican Party while I'm working on this book. And so that's the big question.

Is America tired of this kind of winning? That's the question. Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to figure it out myself. I mean, when I finished your book, I, you know, one of the things I take pride in on open book is I read the book that the author. writes because it's important for me. This way I can have a real conversation with you. When I finished your book, I closed the book. The first thing that came to mind for me and correct me if I'm wrong, he's actually Al Capone. And let me explain why it feels like he's not going to get caught. If you

remember the movie The Untouchables, Mr. Capone was an untouchable. John Gotti, who I grew up with his kids, out here on Long Island, I mean, I'm talking you from the city, but they're all from Long Island. I know John Jr. The father was perceived to be Teflon Don. He was never going to be going to jail. He died in jail. And I guess my question to you, after reading the evidentiary information that you're providing in this book about the culpability of Donald Trump in so many different forms, and I just remind viewers and listeners, there are four grand jury indictments, 91 counts of accusations of being made against him. And yes, there's 20 percent of the people that still like him, but is the government going to bring him down in 2024? Or is this mystery that the

media talks about that he is the true Teflon Don? I think that he, I think your 20%, by the way, is the key thing to focus on. There is about 20% of the country. That might even be a generous number that is totally and completely with him. This is the shoot him on Fifth Avenue crowd. Yes, no question. Yeah, we agree. But, but, but But there's a much bigger group that perhaps, you know, got completely sick of all things Donald Trump. And when he left, kind of stopped paying attention to him. And now we're back. We're approaching another election.

And there's kind of a superficial, am I better off now than I was four years ago kind of feeling? And, you know, people think back to 2019, you know, Donald Trump was president. The world looked a lot more peaceful. inflation was low. The economy felt pretty good. And so I think I think that a lot of it is like an appeal to that and they haven't really paid any attention to, first of all, memories have faded of what happened in 2020 and early 2021. And people haven't focused on what the guy actually stands for, especially now, which I think is a darker, a darker Donald Trump than we saw even in the American Carnage days. And even, you know, when you were at the White House, I think this is a, this is why I wrote the book. I mean, this is, this is, is really why I wrote the book is I wanted to have a very concise and powerful statement and presentation of facts, including a lot of new reporting about what it was really like at the end of that presidency and what it could be like now based on how he has evolved. And most importantly, the people that have fled him. So, you know, look, I think there's

still, I'm one of the few people out there that still thinks there's a chance he could lose the Republican nomination. That may be a slimmer and slimmer chance as we get closer to Iowa, but I don't think that's impossible. And I don't think that there's a mass movement out there to, you know, to bring back Donald Trump to power. Okay. Another observation from your book, I think, I feel like if U.E. Long had a baby with Charles Lindberg and the baby was born and adopted by Roy Cohn, that would be Donald Trump. Okay. So you have this manifestation of isolation, tendencies, manifestation of white supremacy. He is a descendant of the first America first movement. Yep. And then he has that sort of evilness that Roy had, which we all remember living here in New York,

how treacherous Roy Cohn was. I guess my question, and this is an observation, did he make the Republican Party and remolded in his image? Or was the clay already out there? And they drew to him, once he started spitting his invective. There are a lot of people that have made the argument that the clay was out there. Dana Milbank wrote a whole book about this, like, you know, the looking at the Republican Party laying the groundwork for Trumpism and spending a lot of time in the Gingrich era, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, there are some arguments there.

I just think it's different. I think that Donald Trump is not in any way a conventional conservative Republican or what they used to call like the movement conservatives. He is all about himself when he's talking about retribution and he's talking about making war on the deep state. He's talking about making war on people that he views as his enemies, his personal enemies. As you know in the book, I spend a lot of time talking about the imagery of Waco, Texas as the first, as the location of the first campaign rally and the language, much of it I think Bannon inspired of talking about, you know, know, rooting out and utterly destroying the people within our government that are our enemies,

our domestic enemies, the people that are out to get us, the ordinary citizens. This is all the language of the militia movement that we saw in the 1990s that inspired Timothy McVeigh to load up a U-Haul truck through it full of, you know, fertilizer and to bomb the federal building in Oklahoma City. And he did that largely because of the federal overreach that we saw a result in 80-plus people dying in Waco, Texas. And here, Donald Trump is echoing the same language, except now the complaint isn't, you know, that the federal authorities vastly screwed up in, you know, when they went after the branch of Indians, which they did. It's that the federal authorities, like, are coming after classified documents that I pilfered from the White House, that I'm being

prosecuted for paying off a porn star. I mean, it's all him. These are not real grievances. But it makes you wonder, though, right, John? I mean, you're, You've been doing this again a long time. You've traveled the country covering campaigns. You interview people from many different states, lots of swing states. What happened to the country? You know, my observation was that, and I, and again, doesn't reflect well on me because I blew up in a blue-collar neighborhood, but I feel that I was in an aspirational

blue-collar neighborhood. My parents thought their kids were going to go to college and live the American dream. When I traveled with Mr. Trump before he was president, so we'll call him Mr. Trump to date it. 71 campaign stops with the Trump plane in and out of places, rust belt states, swing states. These people felt economically desperation. They felt like the establishment had left them out. Oh, yeah. And so now a result of which he's their last best hope, I guess. Why can't the establishment see that? Why isn't the estate? These are people, John, that voted for Lyndon Johnson or their grandparents or great grandparents voted for FDR. Why is?

is it that neither party, whether it's my old party, the Republican Party, before this reconfiguration, or the Democrats are not getting what Trump is laying down, which is so obvious now after seven years of observing it. Yeah. And when I say the grievances aren't real, I'm talking about the deep state being out to get you and they're trying to like, you know. The conspiracies. No, I know that. I'm talking about that stuff. But in terms of, there are a hell of a lot of people out there who feel left behind or betrayed by the political system, by Democrats and by Republicans. And yes, these are, you know, the people that voted Democratic. These are the Democrats. They voted for Reagan in 1980. These are, you know, people who look at

the vast creation of wealth and look at their own lives and see that it's entirely passed them by. And they also see themselves talked down to by elites. They see, you know, and a lot of it plays into the culture stuff, of course, you know, poor or middle class, whites who get blamed for all order of things and told that they are privileged because of their race. And so it was a very fertile ground for Trump to tap into. And when you were on the plane with him going around in 2016, I mean, I think that a big part of the appeal there was the image that Trump had successfully created for himself, by the way, before he got into politics, long before he got into politics, which I'm the guy. I mean, I'm like the biggest, the richest, the best. I like, I've developed the best thing.

They're the greatest. You know, and I'm going to, I'm going to do it for you now. I'm going to do it for the country. I'm going to bring in the greatest minds. I'm going to bring in the Anthony scaramuji's. I'm going to bring in the top, the ruthless negotiators from Wall Street. And I'm going to have them negotiate for our country. I mean, it was, you know, there was never much to it in reality, but the appeal to it was obvious. And, and then, you know, when Reparple, Republicans finally got around to kind of criticizing him and taking him on in that primary, you know, for too long they didn't, they tried to ignore him because they thought he would disappear. You know, one of the first attacks from Marco was, you know, he's a fraud as a business guy. He's not really successful. And, you know, Republican voters are looking, wait, you mean the guy that's like given helicopter rides at the Iowa State Fair? You mean the guy that just arrived on his own jet that says Trump on it? And you, you know, Marco, who's like struggling to pay off your college debt, you're saying this guy's not successful. It didn't land. And that was the appeal. But that's a very different message than what he's saying now. Don't you think? I do. I mean, this is the thing I don't understand. Like, you know, I obviously friends with Governor Christie. I know he worked at ABC for a while. I've supported Governor

Christi full disclosure. I've given money to the PAC, give money to the campaign. I don't know why Chris doesn't say, hey, I understand why he's appealing to you. However, I would like to offer you a different alternative. my job to have you not unselect Trump, but the proofs put me in the number one position versus him. He's not doing that. He's bashing Trump all day. And when you bash Trump to that 15% of the people, they feel like you're bashing them. You see what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, you know, exactly. And I think that's a mistake Chris is making, but, you know, that's this campaign that he wants to run. You are saying something else, which I find super fascinating. And I want you to explain this to our viewers and listeners. You say that Trump is undercovered. And I actually think it's true.

He has a smallest campaign staff of any frontrunner in history, yet he's still dominant. Tell us what you mean by that statement and why it matters. After he left the White House, first of all, he's off Twitter. You know, Fox for a long period seemed to almost pretend like he didn't exist. He certainly wasn't being interviewed. The way he was covered in much of the rest of the, you know, I mean, I hate to talk about the media as one big, monolith, but by many news organizations, was at first to cover the impeachment trial, which was not covering, you know, him per se. It was, it was covering the, the, the prosecution of what he had done and

his culpability for January 6th. Go forward into the following year. And there's, there's coverage of the formation of the January 6th committee, the January 6 committee's hearings. And then eventually the, the criminal prosecutions, these things get covered a lot. I'm not saying that there's not coverage of that. But what there's been very little coverage of, I think, until recently, and hopefully my book has helped spur some of this, is what's the guy actually been doing since he left the White House? What, who's, who's around him anymore? And what are they talking about? What is he, you know, what would he actually be like if he came back to the White House? No, there's like coverage of the civil case against his business. Were you, again today, he was there, you know, sitting in court.

You know, what's Jack Smith's latest thing? But, but what? So that's why I tried to dive into the guy's mindset. And what I found was a deeply paranoid and conspiracy-minded individual who looked nothing like a former president or a potential future president looked like somebody that was stuck in this world of the far fringe, believing some of the most wacky conspiracy theories and surrounded by almost entirely, you know, know, people that are total sycophants who are there just to tell them how great he is. See, it's interesting because I know a lot of the people on his campaign. I get an interesting to your reaction. It's a small group, but there's some talented people in this campaign. Yeah, and that scares me, by the way, because it's not just sycophants.

These are deep state, de-layering the administrative state expansion of executive power, but effective and smart people. You know, these are like less crazy people than Ben. but equally targeted, if that makes any sense. It's fascinating. You have kind of two groups of people. You have the people that I just described, the kind of way out there.

You know, veterans of OAN, you know, One American News. Yes. You know. And by the way, Bannon as well. Bannon is not actually on the campaign, but Bannon, I think, is very much an influence, maybe even more important than he was. going into 2016 and 2017, because it's Bannon's agenda.

It really is insofar as there is an agenda besides I want to go and kill all my enemies. But then you have this very small group of operatives, and you know who they are. It's people like Susie Wiles, Chris LaSavita, Brian Jack, Jason Miller. And by the way, that's kind of it. You know, it's a really small group. But they're talented, John. They are absolutely talented. And you know they're a fact.

And it's a smaller group than was around him even in 2016, which was a very small campaign. And by the way, there's one strength they have over 2016. And that is they aren't trying to kill each other. There's no infighting that you hear of coming out of the. I mean, they are on the agenda. They're doing their things. And they've already been methodically going through trying to game out the primary system, trying to influence the rules in each of the primary states to Trump's benefit.

They've done this in Nevada where you have this weird system where there's going to be a caucus that's actually going to award the delegates and a primary where people are going to vote. All the states that are becoming winner take all because Trump knows, they know, they believe Trump's can get 35, 40 percent and come in first place. And they don't want anybody else getting pieces of delegates for coming in second or third. So yes, they are. But, you know, these are not actually the people that Trump is spending most of his day with. Actually, there's another factor. And I like your thoughts on this too. But this was something that was pointed out to me by somebody who was there then and is not

on the campaign now, but is still in that orbit and still very sympathetic to, you know, very much on the Trump team, pointing out that, you know, he never really, he didn't play much golf in 2016. He still plays golf, like almost every day. And he's doing a campaign rally every once in a while. I mean, he started to step it up a little bit. But he has spent more time since the beginning of Arkansas. October sitting in that courtroom in New York on the civil trial against his company, then he has

actual campaign rallies. I mean, he was working it when you were, I mean, you just described it. He was working it, but he wasn't a former president. And he's carrying the sympathy from these hard right conspiracy theorists that think this is a witch hunt. They leave out that Mark Meadows, who was an arch conservative and a member of the Freedom Office or the founder of it, frankly, is coming after now too. All right, well, I, you've been very generous with your time. I have five words. I always present to my authors before I allow them to depart. And so you can react to these words any way you'd like a sentence, a word. Okay. Just sort of a Rasha test here. I'm going to start with the word Republican. Troubled. Troubled. Okay. Democrat. Troubled. I'm sorry. I might have to...

Yeah. I actually think the best thing the Republicans have going for them are the Democrats, by the way. Democrats are, I mean, we haven't talked about that. Democrats have, yeah, yeah. They've squandered this opportunity to be a generational, a Rooseveltian generational force. 2016. A black swan event, something that was nearly impossible to anticipate. Right. And something highly unlikely to be replicated. 2024. Everything is at stake. I mean, and Anthony, I've. been covering presidential elections. I've had the great privilege to have been covering presidential elections in one way or another since 1992. And every time you see people come out, this is the most important election of our lifetime. Well, guess what? This one actually is. Right. Well, it feels that way to me. I say the word Trump. You think of what? I think of betrayal. Interesting. And I don't,

I can't quite comprehend. The one thing I can't really comprehend is how, somebody could set out to destroy the way he has the very system that made it possible for him to being the president of the United States. Right. And the system that made his parents and everyone so on and so forth very successful. Yes. I mean, it's why would you do that? This is, this is the greatest country in the world and it has served you beyond your wildest dreams. Jonathan Carl, last question. You ready? Yeah. The Mets going to make the playoffs next year. I didn't say win the world series. Are they going to make the playoffs? I'm always an optimist. I'm going to say yes.

I'm one of those type of MF fans. Okay. Yes, yes. And great to be with you. Great to be with you. And by the way, my daughter, Anna, was in the room when you had your once one glorious live press conference in that briefing room. And she was there the day you were hired because she was kind of shadowing me that just happened to be for a week. So she was there for, you know, for two thirds. You get to see my whole federal career. See that? I mean, my God. And she was. She got, she was with me during that day, your first day on the job, where Sean Spicer slammed the door in my face twice, once in the morning and once in the evening. Both times my daughter was right by my side. Yeah, he wasn't happy with me, Sean, but Reince wasn't happy with me either. You know, he still runs from me. You know, you'll enjoy this story.

The Wall Street Journal had a picture of me and Reince and a stare down in the Oval Office on the front page. Well, the journalist won some kind of reward. the photographer. So he sent me the picture to autograph. So of course I did. You know, it's sort of like Ralph Branca and Bobby Thompson with the home run. You know what I mean? Or Moody Wilson and Bill Bartner, right? Right, right. But Reince is such a baby. He wouldn't sign the picture. Come on, Wrights. Sign the picture. Go on. You know, he's such a baby. But as I've said to Reince and Bannon, anytime you guys want to share a stage with me, any place anywhere, you pick the moderator,

we could have a little tangle together, you know. Well, let's do that. I'll be the moderator. Just offered up. I volunteer. Let's do it. Hey, the mooch is available. If you want to...

By the way, Bannon would do it in a heartbeat. Bannon will do it in a heartbeat. He will not do it. He will not do it. Really? I've been offered to pay him at the Salt Conference. If you want to try him again on the future of the democracy and the country, you, me and him, and we can do it in any venue that he wants, that would be a lot of fun.

Okay. I know to hell of a book. And thank you for leaving my name out of this book this time, Jonathan Carl. And you were in there enough before me. Right. But you know, you know I'm a good sport. And you can't go into politics without taking a beating. And so I'm all good.

And I appreciate you coming on today. And I appreciate our friendship. And thank you for joining us at Open Book. Great. Thank you. Take care. Well, I enjoyed that. I hope you enjoyed it as well.

I love the fact that Jonathan Carl, who interviews so many people, remembers the first question that he, asked me from the White House. And of course, I made him turn red because he was literally trying to destroy me that day, which most journalists, I mean, I guess that's their job, right? But he knows Trump and he's right about Trump. He sees the full aura of what Trump represents. I guess what I often wonder about is why the Trump supporters don't see that and why they don't come to their senses and recognize that you get many of the same policies they like without the additional craziness and the distorted weird behavior that happens in and around Donald Trump.

All eligible voters should be reading this book. In order to save the GOP, we need a strong backbone leader. I'll submit to everybody on this podcast that Kevin McCarthy had the opportunity with Mitch McConnell to put Donald Trump away on the 7th of January after the interruption. He was still president. He had 13 days to go in his presidency. They could have commenced a impeachment proceeding. They certainly wouldn't have gotten all the Republicans, but they would have gotten enough Republicans alongside of Democrats to knock Trump out of the political scene for life.

And we'd be in a much better situation if they had done that. And so we have a combination of weak leadership and bullying going on. We have a very dissatisfied America with the elected officials. So we'll have to see what happens. I don't like Trump's odds, though I do think he's the Al Capone of the political scene. I do think people think he's untouchable. But like Capone, who was once untouchable, he was brought down by the federal government. And I think that day of truth is coming for Donald Trump.

Anyway, I hope you enjoyed the interview and go out and buy Jonathan Carl's book. Anthony? Ma, you're there? You got a minute to come on the show or no? Yeah, of course. But do you know who this is, ma? What do you mean? Do I know who is?

I don't know. Sometimes you call me like out of the blue and you're like, Sidel. Sidel? I mean, I don't know. I'm asking. Do you know who it is? I'm the answer my son, Anthony. Okay, I'm just checking on it, Ma.

My producer says I'm by far your favorite. Okay, so don't tell Susan or David, my sister Susan or David, what she says, but she says, I am by far your favorite. You're so nuts. Okay, Ma, let me talk to you about Donald Trump for a second. What are your memories of the 2016 election? Do you remember the day that you took the picture with him or no? Yes, I thought he was very nice.

on that day. He was actually, right? He was very nice. Yeah, he has, he can be charming and he can be very nice. Do you remember what happened that day, Ma? We couldn't get anybody to go to the fundraiser. Of course, this was the middle of the summer at Chip Riani's on 42nd Street. And so we had, we had every Scaramucci in the picture, right? I was just getting bodies off the street, right, calling people in the phone book saying, you got to come to the fundraiser, right? And he was pissed. Like they were very instrumental with him. And you helped him become. president and then when you were in trouble with that stupid lizard, he didn't stick up for you because he was threatened by the way you speak. All right, Ma. All right. You always go there.

I know you love me, but let's go back to 2016. What are some of your memories of that election? Did you think he was going to win? Yes, he has a certain demeanor and he looks strong and people, he says, he thinks out of context and he, from a lot of people like that. Okay. All right, let me ask you this question, Ma. Do you think he's good for the Republican Party today? It's 2023. Do you think he's good for the Republican Party now? I think he's done a lot of damage. I don't think so. I don't know. I would say not. Okay. So how is he damaged it? So what do you think the damage is that he's done? Well, I think that the people are trying to get a matter there for sure. And they keep saying he did this, he did that. And it makes the common people. want to vote for him, but the intellects, I think it's a terrible way of putting it, or more skeptical, that he could destroy the country.

All right. Well, yeah, you know, I'm super worried about that because he's not a fan of the democracy. Well, let me ask you this, okay? My guest today that I interviewed said that Trump is running for revenge. Do you think he's running for revenge? No. Why do you think he's running? I think he likes the glamour of it.

He likes the glamour. He likes the spotlight, right? Uh-huh. Okay. Yeah. Is revenge a bad thing, Ma? Yes. Okay, tell me why. I have that in me.

I do profess it because I know what it's all about. Yes, I have revenge on people that really hurt. Right, right? So you like getting revenge, right? Revenge is... I've had a few hurts, and I've seen people get revenge. Okay, you've seen yourself get back at people that have hurt you, is what you're saying. Without even doing anything, I think God.

takes over. Okay, I mean, just bad karma. They, they, they, they end up getting hurt through bad corn. So you think that's going to, all right, go ahead. I'll give you a close that my father told me. He told me that God doesn't pay on a Friday. He's not a merchant. He pays whenever he can. And guess what? It happens. Okay. So, so, so you believe that there's karma and that people that do bad things, they eventually get it. You think that Trump will get some of the bad karma that he's put out there? Yes. I, yes. You do. Yes.

All right. I think that he was very shaken when you, on the 11th day that you were in the White House, and he should have defended you as the president of the United States because you helped him win. And I think he was very small to do that. But I also think he was threatened over your intellect. All right. You love me, Ma, I appreciate that. Did I speak correctly, though?

Yeah, always, Ma, you always do. I mean, they want to hear from you more than me. Let's face it. All right? I love you, thank you. I love you, too, Ma. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was Open Book. Thank you for listening.

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