Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - Morgan Housel: Are We Really the Same as Ever?

Episode Date: January 10, 2024

In this week's new episode, Anthony sits down with bestselling author and finance expert, Morgan Housel. Why does our relationship with money define us? How much has it changed over time? Where should we really be finding our happiness? And what are the two most important words in investing? Morgan answers everything and more on today's show. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is Open book, where I talk with some of the brightest minds out there about everything surrounding the written word, from authors and historians to figures and entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe, wherever you get your podcast, and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the parts you're enjoying or how we can do better.

You know, I can roll with the punches, so let me know. Anyways, let's get to it. Today on Open Book, we have our first returning guest, Morgan Housel. His first book, The Psychology of Money, is one of the best and most useful finance books of recent times. Nearly four years later, I still recommend and give it to people. He's now back with a new book, same as ever, and it's just as brilliant. Mr. Hustle doesn't need any more of an introduction.

So let's go to the conversation. Okay, so my next guest on O'SRourke, open book is Morgan Housel, international bestselling author. He's a partner at the collaborative fund. And he's a brilliant guy. And I told him backstage, I'm actually flattered that he's still coming on my podcast. So I want to say thank you because you are a big deal now. Okay. Always for you, Anthony. And let me tell you something. This book, same as ever, timeless lessons on risk opportunity and living a good life. What a companion book to the psychology of money. And I just want to remind my listeners, I got a copy. I got an

advanced copy from your publisher of Psychology of Money, read the whole thing. I said, my God, this is unbelievable. This is going to be a bestseller. And it was, okay? You, you, I don't know how many books you sold, but it had to be in the hundreds of thousands, if it's not a million. Not to brag. You go, please. Just crossed four and a half million. I mean, that is phenomenal. You know what? I hope it goes to 10 million. I give it out to people. I give it out to people for gifts. I have a stack of those books. When I'm young people come to my office, Morgan, I hand them the psychology of money. I'll now be hands. handing them the timeless lessons, the same as ever timeless lessons. I can tell you, these books are

phenomenal reads. And every time I talk to you or I listen to you or you're writing something, I'm learning something. So I want to start there. I want to start with what is it about you and your five senses that you can see something that I'm looking at and see it totally differently that I'm looking at it and give me a new appreciation for it? It's almost like you're an art critic of money. And you're an art critic of life and the observation of life and you're able to provide insight to people that are looking at the same thing. How are you able to do that, sir? Well, thanks, Anthony.

It's always good to be back here. My wife put this together a couple months ago, which she said, and she said this is a joke, but I think there's literal truth to this. I'm not smart enough to make money matters complicated. I don't have the mental horsepower to build a complicated model, to price options, to think that I can beat the market. I'm not smart enough. But because of that, I tend to focus on stories.

That's as high as my mental horsepower goes, is focusing on a good story. There's also a point here that I've been a financial writer for 17 years, and you can only survive as a writer and keep people's attention for that long if you are focusing on stories. If your financial writing is, here's what I think that Dow is going to do over the next six months. You're done. You're done because nobody can do that, and there's 100,000 people trying to do it right now that you have to compete with. But if you can tell a good story that might capture someone's attention, you have a

fighting chance of surviving in this industry. So I think it's those two things that kind of breeds it. Well, and it's well said, but let's talk about attention for a second. Okay, nobody has it anymore. Okay, everyone's suffering in various levels of attention deficit. Yet I felt like your book is digestible. It's manageable. And I felt like a champion in your book.

Can I tell you why? Because when I read, even though I love books, I have to admit this, I'm a little bit of a slow reader because I'm trying to, you know, absorb everything. And when I get to the end of the chapter, I feel accomplished. But you're whipping me. I've got one chapter after the next. I've got one thought after the next. So tell us about that because I think everyone is going to go to the Morgan Housel writing style. I think that's the only way people are going to pay attention. How did you get there ahead of us? Well, it's true. Everybody knows the thing with nonfiction books that the majority of nonfiction books could have been a long article. And maybe that's true for some of the stuff that I write as well. But to me, the only way to battle against that is a bunch of short chapters where you're like, make a point, try to make it a good point, tell a good story. and then be done. Don't sit here and ramble for another 30 pages with another 20 examples of this point. The best example I've seen of this is a historian named Eric Larson. He's written many books.

He's a mega bestseller. His chapters are literally one page. One page. His last book was called The Splendon and the Vile. I think it's literally 200 chapters. Okay. So that was about Winston Churchill. Just so everybody knows it was a phenomenal book. You wrote a book about the Lusitania. He wrote a book about the early emergence of Chicago. Every time he writes a book and he's got one coming out about the pre-Civil War in April. Every time he writes a book, I'm salivating. He's a lot like you and the respect of history, but you're a contemporary writer. You're capturing, you're using history. You wrote some great stories about the past and you plugged them into the future and to the present. But there's a genius to you that I have to applaud. You are

identifying for us what we need to do to be happy and what we need to do to create some responsibility over our own wealth. And so let's say we're in the elevator together. We're just meeting each other of the first time. And I said to you, I don't have a lot of money and I want to be happy and I want to be financially secure. Morgan, what do I have to do? Use whatever money you have to try to gain some sense of independence in your life. Independence doesn't mean you're going to retire tomorrow necessarily. It just means that you're using your money to control the time that you're going to have tomorrow. Because what's actually going to make you happy in life is not how much money you have. It's the relationships with your spouse, your kids, your friends, your family, your health, your clear

conscience, your ability to sleep eight hours a night, that's what's going to keep you happy. And if you can use your money to gain a sense of independence, where you're doing something every day because it's what you want to do, spending time with the people you want to spend with. That's how, that's the biggest sense of using your money as a tool to gain happiness. And I would contrast that with most people's knee-jerk reaction, which is how can I buy a bigger house, a nicer car, nicer clothes, all of which I love. I'm a sucker for nice houses and Ferraris. But if you're actually going to use this as a tool to make yourself happy, it's much closer to using it for independence rather than a way to gain more resources. You have written about this. And so I have to ask you this,

if I'm going to re-synthesize it for me with an observation. I'm turning 16 in January. Come on. No, no, come on. There's a lot of work. There's a lot of work going on here. We're talking about tremendous Botox, lots of hair dye. When you get a little older, I'll teach you all my secrets. Okay, but there's a tremendous amount of work going on here, okay? I'm not quite Joan Rivers yet, but I'll get there. Okay, but here's the thing I want to say about you. I was having this conversation with my wife. We have a decent amount of money. We've lived in a decent house. We're blessed with these things. Started out poor. And I had what Ace Greenberg said, a deep desire to be rich. But I also recognized maybe it was my religion, maybe it was the grounding from my parents that, you didn't have to overreach. I don't have to prove to people I can live in the big house. I don't have to have more than you to like one up you or anything like that. Yet I live and work on Wall Street and we both know these people. We know miserable billionaires and miserable millionaires. And they're here on Wall Street with us. And it makes me think that there's something wrong with our brains when it comes in contact with money. Definitely something wrong with our brains when it comes with contact with power.

It's like what Lord Acton said, the power corrupts. So what is it about the human brain on money? I think it's people are wired to seek status and not necessarily happiness. And money is such a universal yardstick of your status and your success that people are chasing it just for the sake of accumulating more. And they think, they think intuitively, if I have more money, I'll be happy. But they're not accumulating the money to be happy. They're accumulating it to increase their status.

And the problem with this is that at the tippy, tipy top, even, there's always going to be someone who's richer than you or more successful than you. And, you know, you can think, you know, there are people who are worth a hundred billion dollars and they are ranked number 10 or number 15 on the list. There's probably some of those people who are thinking about how did this guy get even richer than I? There's no limit to that. And I think what's important here is that really what it is is a competition with other people. And if you have a billion dollars, but the other guy has a billion in one, then he wins. And then so once you identify that game, that it's just a competition with other people and you realize how stupid that

game is. It's a very natural game that's been in bred in us over the years. But then if you're if you're thinking about like, look, I just want to use this as a tool to live a better life. How can I use it to spend more time with my family? How can I use it to help my community? Give some of it away. And have some nice toys for myself, but they're toys that I enjoy rather than toys that are going to show off to other people how successful I am. Let me push back for a second. By the way, I agree with everything you said and I'm certainly trying to live that and your books are helping me live that, but we treat rich people differently. See, I don't, I think F. Scott Fitzgerald was wrong in that he said that the rich are different than you and me. I don't believe that they are. They have to get up in the

morning. They have anxiety. They have health issues. They have all that different stuff. But we treat them differently, Morgan. You know, we had a Secretary of Commerce, Wilbur Ross. He was worth $700 million. He overstated his balance sheet by $2.5 billion because he wanted people to think he was a billionaire. When he was asked why, he got treated better. He was perceived different. differently. Why do we do that as human beings? But, well, it's back to the seeking of status. Now, pretty much everywhere psychologists look, the correlation between status and happiness and like a quality of your life is very strong. If you want a higher quality life, seek status. But there's a couple ways that you could seek it. You could do it like Wilbur and try to cheat your way and

like lie about your net worth. Maybe that's too strong of a word. But no, I mean, it's not too strong award. He exaggerated it. Trump exaggerates it. And then you have other people that are understating it. You know what I mean? Because they're trying to get out of the spotlight, you know? Or you can do it legitimately and like legitimately make money and use that to buy a Rolls-Royce that you're showing off your status. Or the other way is you can do it through your love, your wisdom, your humor, your ability to help people. That will gain you respect and admiration and status as well, particularly from the people who you want to respect and admire you. Now, I think most people down in their soul, they want about 10.

10 people to love them. They probably want their spouse, their kids, their parents, their siblings, their close friends to love them. And everyone else is kind of like an ancillary thing. Right. And you're going to gain the respect and admiration. Not in the beginning because I have young kids. One of my young kids walked in before we started a quarter. 100%. Totally agree with that. Right. They get upset. They want everybody in their class to like them. Calm down. They're not going to all like you. See, there's definitely a thing where early in your career, I think you should wave your arms as wildly as you can to gain people's attention for that, to make a name for yourself. There's a limit. There's a right way to do it. But the older that you get, you're going to narrow down the number of people who you actually want to love you. And I think that's a big thing here that I completely understand why a 22 year old would want really nice clothes and Rolex because they're trying to seek a boyfriend, a girlfriend, a spouse, or whatnot. From our perspective, as we get a little bit older, and you're not 60, I don't believe that. But as we get a little bit older, then I think the narrowing of that really changes how you're going to seek attention and respect and status.

All right, well, you can Google my fat ass, okay? I was born on January 6, 1964, and it goes by very quickly. And so maybe you can write a third book called The Psychology of Time and underneath it, where the hell does it go, okay? Yeah, I like it. Let me get back to these critical, vital things, okay? Love, greed, envy. You write with such brilliant observation of those three words.

Let's start with the word love. I mean, that's what everybody wants. And Buffett definition of success, of just life success, is when the people who you want to love you actually love you. And he contrasts this with all these billionaires that he knows, and I know you know some of them too. And Buffett says, nobody loves them. They have all the money in the world. They have hospital wings named after them. They have mansions. They have jets. And nobody loves them. Their kids don't love them. They act like assholes. They're rude. They're condescending. They're know-it-alls. They're chisler. But this gets back to my thing of like, how do you gain your respect? You can do it with your house and your car or your plane.

or you can do it through your love, respect, wisdom, humor. Humor is maybe the biggest one. If you learned that your famous comedian was actually broke, you probably wouldn't care. You're like, I respect and admire you because you're funny, not because of your bank account, but if you are looking at a private equity tycoon, a hedge fund manager and they go broke,

you're like, that was kind of all I admired you for was your bank account. And I just think it's such a more durable, fulfilling way to like seek your status from those internal things rather than your money. Now, a lot of this, like, money can be, like, connected to it. Like I as a parent, you as a parent, I want to take the best care of my children and my wife and my family. And money is a big part of that.

I want to give them the comfortable life that money provides. So it's not that money doesn't play a role here. You have to understand the root of what you're getting or what you're trying to get is their love and respect and attention from those few people who you want to love you. Well, here's something I want you to think about as a parent. Okay. And this is actually from your books and it's integrated with my life's observation. You have to provide space for your children to fail. And it's very, very important as a parent that your children see you failing.

A lot of this has been accidental for me. Of course, when I got blasted from the White House, it was a very public failure. But it had this weird effect on my kids, Morgan. It allows them to see, wow, their dad, who they, you know, because your kids look at you differently. Like, I watch these billionaires and they try to tell their kids, they do everything perfectly, and their life is going up in a 45-degree straight line. I read these memoirs. And memoirs of perfect thinking and perfect life and perfect career assent.

And you're not providing any space for the imperfection of life for your children. And you're casting this weird shadow over them. And they all end up in like medical mental trauma units. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's important for me to show my kids, hey, I'm vulnerable. I'm weak. I make stupid decisions.

It's important because your kids are going to learn about that anyways. I think every child views their parents as like a superhero because they are to them. They provide everything. It's also important to let your kids fail, not just to watch you fail, but to let them fail. The stark example to me was the varsity blues, all the people who are paying to get their kids into college and cheating the system to get them in. And one of the, one of the stories that came out of that is most of those kids did not know that their parents were cheating to get them into college. The kids thought that they were doing it on their own talents and their own, their own skills. And the kids were just completely devastated when they found out

that their parents were cheating because the parents did not believe in them. So letting your kids fail and making a meritocracy for your kids. Like that's incredibly important. So really, really great insight here. Let's go to the word envy. Envy, of course, this is the Charlie Munger thing. It's like, it's the worst of the sins because you can't have any fun with it. The other sins of like gluttony and whatnot, at least you're having fun doing them. Envy is just, I think there's a big difference between admiring someone's skills and saying, I want that for myself and envy. I think the difference is when I admire your skills and I say, I want to be more like that, it's a positive thing. envy is, I'm jealous of you, so I hope you fail. It has nothing to do with boosting myself. It's

just pulling other people down. I think it's always a case of when there is some sort of inequality in the world, whether it's wealth inequality, racial and equality, whatever it is. There's two ways to go about it. You can promote the underdog or you can denigrate the person who's ahead. And sometimes it seems like you're getting to the same spot, but it's a very different way of getting there. And it's the same thing with looking at other people's success. You can admire that and try to chase it or you can envy it and try to tear it down. And there's actually a lot of the latter in the world. You see this quite a bit with like the Shadenfreude on social media when people fail. It's not looking up to your heroes. It's, it's

rooting for the decline in other people who you think don't deserve their success. It's interesting. So, you know, this word Shadenfreude or Schadenfreude, the German word is hot and cold, right? Schadenfreude. And it is you go hot and cold. You get pleasure from other people's pain and you get pain from other people's pleasure. You have to think about this. This is a human being. meaning this is the atavism of our brains. This is the primordial nature of our survival mechanisms. So your cave was bigger than my cave and your wife was pretty than mine. I went over to your cave, hit you in a head with a rock and took your cave and your wife. Okay. And that's what we did 50,000 years ago. We don't have to do that anymore. And it's so much just like viewing everything

as a competition. Everything is a competition. That's all evolution. It's just a competition for resources. And when you view it through that lens, then all these things kind of make sense. But I think you could ask, we have the intelligence now as humans to take a step back and realize how dumb that game is and realize that it's going to maybe increase your status, maybe, but it's not going to increase your happiness in the slightest. We have to override that. We have to override that. Okay. So, unfortunately, because these are short podcasts and you are a brilliant guy. I can talk to you all day.

Let's talk about greed. It's right up there with the envy. Yeah. It's not knowing the boundaries of your skill is most greed. Now, I think most people, not all, but most people. who engage in greed have no idea that they're doing it. The actions that they're taking seem to make perfect sense to them. Of course, there are exceptions to that, but I think most of the time in investing, when in hindsight, you're like, oh, that was just greed. It looked like the right decision for that

person in their head in that moment. So I think it's just knowing the boundaries of your skill, of your risk tolerance, that's probably the biggest one, knowing the boundaries of your risk tolerance. Most people in hindsight, when they got caught up with greed, they look back and they assumed that they could accept a 50% decline or whatever. And then they experienced it and they realized they couldn't. And in hindsight, they say, if only I was less greedy and taking less risk, I could have put up with that kind of loss. Interesting. So Morgan, the magic of investing is found in two words. I'm going to say the two words I want you to react. You ready? Compound interest. That's it. But it's too simple for smart people to take seriously and the

magic of it is not intuitive. So go, go ahead, sir. You're going to educate me. I am, I'm not that smart, but actually, you really have to educate the super smart because I always trying to out-trick the market where Buffett tells you, relax and just ride the whole thing. But go ahead. I mean, here's the trick behind it. If you are an investor, the knee-jerk question that you want to answer is, how can I earn the highest returns? That seems like the intuition. Of course, that's what I should do. And it's not. What you want to do is figure out the best returns that you can sustain for the longest period of time. Because earning 20% in one year is cool. Earning 15% for 20 years is magic. Doing it for 50 years is ridiculous. If you can be an average

investor for an above average period of time, you'll end up in the top 1% of all investors. And that's not intuitive. So this is, I think, part of why indexing can make sense. If the simplicity of indexing allows you to stick around as an investor for 20 years, 30 years, 50 years, you're going to crush it. You're earning average returns for an above average period of time because that's the math of compounding. The exponent in the equation is time. That's where all the heavy lifting is done. It's not in returns. It's just how long can you keep this going for. Yeah, amen. All right. Well, you're hitting my sweet spot and love everything about you. I didn't realize we almost had a fascist overthrow of Franklin Roosevelt. Had to read that in your book, same as ever.

And boy, we have this interesting, amazing country that we're both growing up in and learning. And I'm down to the last part of my podcast, and it is more words. Okay, so what I do with all my authors, my production team and I, Holly and I, we pick five words. And then it's sort of a Rasha test. I'm going to ask you the word. You're going to respond to it. Ready? Time.

The most underappreciated driver of investing returns. Tell me why. Because, again, that's the exponent in compounding. The bottom number is not doing the heavy lifting. The expo it is. If you can be average for an above average period of time, you win. You win everything. So you got to be patient.

Time to me in investing is patience, right? High quality. That's it. Shut up and don't do anything. Risk. Different for everybody, but everyone wants to distill it to some sort of formula that that works for everybody. My risk tolerance is different from yours and is different from everybody's.

Everyone has to figure it out for themselves. Opportunity. Rare. That's the one word. We don't live in a world in which every single. single person who wants to beat the market can do it. Of course not. Opportunities are going to be rare. Probably like a once in a decade thing. Are you going to have big opportunities in the economy? Wealth. Way more than just a number. Much closer to the quality of your relationships, your

friendships, your children, your health. That's the biggest factor of wealth. And money can help those things. But the core of wealth are those things to begin with. I want to expand on this because I was with a guy. It was in Abu Dhabi. This guy is a contemporary of mine. His father was a very famous person that passed away. And he was remarking about another famous person that also passed away. And he lamented. He said, you know, the son of a bitch that was a rival of my father, he had way more money than him. And I always said, how was that even possible? My father was such a better guy.

And I looked at him, so how are you measuring life? Are you measuring it by wealth or money? Because if your father had 500 friends and was loved by everybody and to use your line now or Buffett's line that he wanted to have love him. And the other guy was a complete jerk off. Who had the better life? You see what I mean? To me, it's so obvious.

And to me, a lot of this is like the deathbed test of like when you're on your deathbed looking back at your life, measuring how you did. What are you going to measure? Are you going to measure your net worth or the quality of people standing around your bed whispering, thank you, I love you, into your ear. It's so obvious what's going to matter more. Life. We're so lucky to be getting to live this.

Not just because everyone, me, you, everyone knows people whose lives were cut short. But just like the cosmic thing of like, what are the odds that? we would live on the only planet that we have found so far that have life. And we can be this species that gets to think and communicate and share stories. Like I guess the one word I would, I would summarize that for life is just fortunate. Well, if Mark Twain and Malcolm Gladwell and H.L. Mencken got together and they had a baby. It would be Morgan Housel. Okay. You got it all, baby, okay? I'll take it. I'll take it. You're smart. You're witty. You're observant and you're teaching a great many of us, so many great lessons about life. We want another book already, though, Hassel. So when are we getting

another book? I'm working on it now. Let's say two and a half years is when you'll get it. Okay. All right. I'm setting my, I'm setting the timer. I'm setting the timer in my house, okay? I'll be back. And then in theory, you'll be 61 and I'll tell you what's bullshit. And we'll do this again. When that bell rings in 30 months, I expect you to be right here, okay, on open book. Thank you so much. It's a real honor to have you on our show. Appreciate it. Thanks, Anthony. Well, as always, it's such an honor to have Morgan join the show. We can take so much from him. But I think the biggest thing that we can take is to learn from other aspects of our life, to draw from other aspects of our life into our professional lives.

I'll just give you an example of that. Let's take Winston Churchill as an example. He remained steadfast and determined during the war. Many people in his cabinet, some of the ambassadors like Joseph P. Kennedy told him to give up. acquiesced to Adolf Hitler, he did not. Boy, can you learn a lot about that in terms of toughness and resilience in your personal life and business. Mr. Hassel has this wonderful way of taking ideas and thoughts from other realms, political, biotech, technology, and applying it to everyday life. The book is fascinating. It's filled with stories that you won't forget. And so I heartily recommend it to you. And it's always great fun to have them on the show. As I said about Mr. They are timeless.

You will go back to them over the years. The same way I go back to Marcus Aurelius' meditations every January. All right, Ma. You're on the show. You ready? I'm ready. Welcome back to Open Book, Ma. Happy New Year.

Thank you. Thank you. You have a big birthday coming up, right? The 30th of January? Yes, I do. Okay. How old are you going to be? 40?

45. I'm 21. I'm 21 lake. 45 on one leg? Okay. All right. You're holding your own. You haven't cracked up yet, Ma.

It's a good sign. You're holding your own. Thank you, baby. All right. So I had a guy on that wrote a book. He wrote two books. One was called The Psychology of Money. And the second one was called Same as Ever, which basically, he's more or less saying in the book

that human nature has been the same, whether it's today, a thousand years from now or two thousand years from now. Do you believe that, ma, do you think human nature? Tell me why you think that, ma. Well, the physical and the mental point of it is pretty much the same. You know, people work to survive, to eat, and to live properly. You know, I'm not saying everyone, but the majority of the people that are in the know will work so that they can have a better life. And I think that's always been in existence because my dad, he worked very hard for it.

And his goal was to work. So I look at everyone that is in the know will work to make their life better. But people's emotions are basically the same, right? We react to things more or less the same, right? Pretty much. Do you think science has changed anything? Ma, I think we were more religious maybe 50 or 100 years ago. What do you think about that?

Well, I think that years ago, which would be my generation because I'm getting there, I think that we had a more simpler life and we're happier. You know, kids used to play kick the can and high-go-s to eat things. And now everything's on the computer or the phone. And I don't think that's such a wonderful thing. I really don't. That makes people less happy, is what you're saying, right? I got Verizon calling me.

Can you hold on, though? Okay, Mom. All right. She's got Verizon calling her. Okay, so Verizon's way more important than us. Because they probably won't call her back for like two years. Yes. Yes, Mom.

Sorry. I can't call out so they're trying to fix the phone. Can we continue to show? You got to go. Yeah, yeah, yes. All right, so the people are basically the same? Pretty much. Yeah, I think so.

But what about the religion? You think the people have lost interest in the religion? The churches aren't as full as it used to be. I think so because of the sex, you know, scandal. Yeah, I do. Oh, you think it's more related to that, right? Yeah, people got turned off by that, right? Mm-hmm.

Yeah, me, me especially. And I think that the gays were not approved by the Catholic religion, And I am Catholic and I'm a real Catholic, but they should approve the days to be as human as we are. Of course. This is ridiculous. I mean, I couldn't agree with you more. All right. Well, let me ask you this, Ma.

What's the biggest change you've seen in the world since you were a kid? I think people are more competitive. More competitive? Yeah, they want more advice than my generation. You know, as long as you had good clothes and good food on the table. And he had fun playing outside. It was almost like enough that the neighborhoods were a lot of fun that I grew up in. And my children grew up in the same kind of neighborhood, which I think was very good for them.

Yeah, well, I agree with you on that. As you get older and you get more stuff, you realize the simpler things are better. But you think people are more competitive. Could that be because of social media where they compare each other? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, that's a big problem, right? Yep, absolutely. I love you, Mom.

I love you very much. All right, bye. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was Open Book. Thank you for listening. If you like what you hear, tell your friends, and make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. While you're there, please leave us a rating or review. If you want to connect with me or chat more about the discussions,

it's at Scaramucci on Twitter or Instagram. You can also text me at plus 1, 917, 909-29-9-9-6. I'd love to hear from you. I'll see you back here next week.