Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - Navigating Life's Challenges with Dru Hammer

Episode Date: May 28, 2025

This week, Anthony talks with Dru Hammer who shares her powerful journey of love, loss, and faith after marrying into the Armand Hammer dynasty. From painful divorce to healing, encounters with royalty, and lessons on independence, she opens up like never before. A story of resilience, redemption, and renewed purpose. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is Open Book, where I talk to some of the brightest minds about everything surrounding the written word. That's everything. That's from authors and historians to figures in entertainment, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Before we dive in, make sure to follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to leave a review. Good or bad. I want to hear from you. I want to hear whether you're enjoying it or where we can improve. And I can take the hits. So let me know. If you don't like something, say it straight. Now let's get into it. Okay. So joining us now on Open Book is Drew Hammer, an entrepreneur, an evangelist, and an author. And the title of the book is Hammered, which is a double-on-tondondond

obviously because it's about the Hammer family. And I love the title. But Drew, it's great to have you here. I, when I was 23, I'll just tell you, I think you'll enjoy this. Okay. When I was 23, I was working at a law firm in Southampton, New York. And my boss said to me, here's $35. I want you to go to Southampton Books. And I want you to buy me and I want you to buy you a copy of Hammer by Armandham. Wow.

And I want you to come back and you and I are going to read this book. It was the month of June. We're going to finish it by July 1. and then you and I are going to have discussion about this legendary entrepreneur, art collector, energy maverick, Arm and Hammer. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, that's a true story. Wow.

And you may remember that book, of course, right? And that book came out in July of 1987. So I'm sorry, June of 1987. All right, but before we go into your book, which I loved, let's start about your early years, your upbringing, a little bit of of your life story if you don't mind. Okay, I would love it. Well, I'm a small town girl from Tulsa, Oklahoma, and neither one of my parents grew up with any type of religion. And a group of Christian businessmen led my dad to Jesus. And it completely changed our entire family. My dad went

from being raised extremely poor to becoming a workaholic because he did not want to raise his children the way he was raised every month thinking are we going to make it and he just became totally consumed to the exclusion of his family and that he said this group of Christian businessman that he met they had a piece that he did not have and he wanted that because he kept setting goals reaching the goals never got i mean once he got there he wasn't happy so he found the lord and so i was raised in a very strong Christian family, but thankfully it wasn't a religious family. It wasn't about religion. My dad said something to me when I was five years old. He said, Drew, the longest distance in the world is 12 inches. It's moving God from a head knowledge where you think you know him

to a down to your heart, to a personal relationship. And that really changed my entire life. And then I met Michael Hammer on the airplane, and I'm a whist into this crazy life that I knew nothing about, but because I had my faith, that's what gave me really, truly, my stability. And, you know, I have a lot of great stories in there, like the one with James Roosevelt, where it was really life-changing for me, where I realized, because I was very intimidated at first and thought, oh, my gosh, I didn't go to an Ivy League school. I'm a small town girl. I went to Oklahoma State, and I two-step. on the weekends. You know, what am I ever going to have to talk to these people about? And I just

talked to him about God. And he ended up really accepting Jesus that night. And he was elderly in a wheelchair. And the Lord spoke to me that night. And he said, Drew, you may not be a blue blood. You may not have gone to an Ivy League school, have some huge career, but you led him to me. And that is more important than anything in the world because that's eternal. So for people that don't know the family, because I have a lot of young listener, obviously they know your son, but they don't know Armand Hammer. They probably don't know who Michael Hammer is. I do.

Let's talk a little bit about them. So these are brilliant people. These are brilliant people. Entrepreneurs that made, you know, the equivalent of what would be billions of dollars today in today's terms. Right. Big in the energy markets. you're a small town girl, you meet this very Ritzie, let's call it Ritzie, family, and you have to make an adaptation. So how do you make this adaptation joining this oil tycoon's family?

Well, it's actually kind of a funny story, Anthony. So the first time I met Armand, no, actually the second time, excuse me, we flew out for Christmas, and he was a Russian Jew, but they celebrated Christmas. a holiday. I don't think as a religious practice, but as a holiday. And I remember walking into his home and there were five of us there. And he had a man in a tuxedo playing a grand piano with a huge tub of Russian caviar and Russian vodka that he would bring back from his trips in Russia. And I knew who he was, sort of. We didn't have Google back then. And I knew he started a company called Occidental Petroleum. And funny enough, he actually bought. Occidental when he was retiring.

And there were three employees, and he paid $125,000 for the company. And he had never seen an oil rig before in his entire life, knew nothing about the energy business. And he had his chauffeur, Andy, drive him out to Bakersfield and asked him, asked him to show him what an oil rig actually look like in person and how it worked. So it's just kind of a funny story. And then, of course, Occidental became one of the largest, you know, oil and gas companies in the world. But when I met him, you know, I didn't know any of those facts.

I just knew that it was a big family. And it was so impersonal that first Christmas because my family is like the Norman Rockwell family where we have matching flannel pajamas with her names monogrammed on them. And I walked in and it was so formal in these, you know, the butler comes in and his, you know, the butler comes in. his tuxedo on Christmas Day. And, you know, they served the Christmas dinner. And it was a whole procession with the big silver trays with the silver domes over them. And I'm like, what is going on? And they small talked.

They really didn't know each other. And I think one thing a lot of people don't realize is when you accomplish what an arm and hammer accomplishes. You're not home at five o'clock to have dinner with the family. You're traveling the world. there's always a sacrifice involved. So I felt like the family members really didn't know each other. And I thought, well, I think that's my part because I grew up in this incredible loving family that always put God first.

So after the Christmas lunch, Arman says to me, Drew, I'd like to speak with you in my office. Well, I honestly don't think I knew enough. I was 23 years old, a year out of college. I don't think I knew enough to even be in. intimidated by Armand. So I was like, okay. So we walk into his office and I start laughing. And he said, what's so funny? And I said, you have a private library in the Dewey Decimal System. I'm like, are you kidding me? So he got a kick out of that. And he talked to me and he said, I would, I'd like to ask you not to work because Michael's my only grandson. And, you know, I'm getting older.

he was in his, I guess, mid-80s then. And he said, I want Michael to travel around. I want him to take over the foundation. He would never say, when I die, he would say, if I die. We always got a kick out of that. And so I said to him, I said, well, I would like to ask something of you. And he goes, well, what would that be? I said, well, I would like you to come over our home anytime you're in town and have Sunday brunch with us.

and I would love to teach you how to be a family. And I look back and I'm mortified. I'm like, I cannot believe I had the guts to say that to him. But again, I was probably too naive not to think that wouldn't be appropriate. So funny enough, he had gotten older by then and he was home a little more. He wasn't traveling as much. And every single Sunday he was in town, he came to our home. and he learned to be a family, and he fell in love with his great-grandchildren.

And I have a funny story in the book that he even would come over in his limousine filled with toys. And one time he had a kitty pool tied to the top of his limousine with ropes going through the car. He just got the biggest kick out of it. You see, the coolest part of your story is the realness. I mean, you're an incredibly down-to-earth person, but you're a great dresser. You know, you have like a, it's like a weird thing. Like you would like look at you and you wouldn't realize at first blush, giving your life experience, who you've interacted with, how down-to-earth you are. But when you read your book, it's incredibly revealing.

It's very vulnerable your book. And it's very much so about real life. But I want to start with the highbrow stuff first. And then if you don't mind, I want to go to your divorce because you write about it. And it's very real. And I think it's in some ways, Drew, therapeutic for other people to hear your story. That's my goal right there. And I appreciate that.

And I got that from the book. But let's go to the royalty and the world leaders and the business heads first. You serve some great anecdotes. Why don't you tell us one or two of those? And then I want to switch over to something that was probably traumatizing for you, but also the way you share it, I think, is very hopeful for the rest of us. So let's start with the world leaders. Give us a few stories, Drew, if you don't mind. Okay.

Well, before I do that really quickly, when you say it's so real, is I believe if you write a book, you have to give the good, the bad, and the ugly. And that's why it took me 10 years. And it was actually a real cathartic exercise, if you will, for me. Because as I was writing, I just started out by journaling. And as I was writing, I realized, oh, my gosh, I haven't really forgiven. In my mind, I thought I had forgiven. But I really hadn't totally forgiven because, you know, sometimes you just want to twist that knife just a little bit. So that's why I wrote it.

And the reason why you talk about, you know, humility is I have no reason not. to be humble. Everything that God, all the experiences that I've had, I didn't deserve it. I didn't earn it. It's by the grace of God because I was taught as a child from my father, bloom where you're planted. And the greatest gift I knew that I could bring in to that family and everyone I came in contact with is that God loves them. It's very simple. We're created as spiritual beings on this earth were physical, mental, and spiritual beings. And I believe you can have everything in the world and not have the spiritual aspect, a relationship with our creator. And you can be the most unhappy person in the world. So that leads in to what you were asking me about the highbrow people.

So I even had an amazing, several experiences with Princess Die. And Armand was Prince Charles's Godfather, if you will, because he was great friends with Lord Mountbatten. And then when he died, Armand and Prince Charles had become very close. And they started the United World Colleges together. So there were several events. And when you go to those things and people are paying $50,000 a plate or $150,000 for the weekend, you're not going to see 30-year-olds there for the most part. It's people who are all obviously successful and established. So we, We were usually thrown into rooms with a lot of older people. So a lot of times they would put Princess Dye and myself together because we were having

sons at the same time and we would have something in common. And the first couple times I met her, it was usually pleasantries and it was surface. And I understand that because she had been betrayed so many times in the press. So you can't push it. She has to instigate it. So we would say, you know, how much we love our sons and how wonderful. it is to have two sons, you know, that kind of thing. But the third time I met her, Armand's spouse had just died, Francis, and she was an amazing woman. And there was a big event in Washington, D.C., and he asked

if we would go in his place. And it was a big fundraiser for the opera house there. And Prince Charles and Princess Dye were going to be there because part of the portions were going into the United War colleges. So she walked up to me, and she said, hello, Drew. And I remember thinking in my mind, okay, this is the weirdest thing in the world. I'm from Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I'm a small town girl, and Princess Dye knows who I am. She remembers my name. So I was like, wow. But she says to me, she said, I want you to know how sorry I am about Francis.

I loved her. We've spent a lot of time together, and she was always so wonderful to me. And then she leaned in, and she says, by the way, she said, nobody had jewels like Francis. And she leaned in and kind of looked around and she said, did you get the jewels? Well, I start laughing because I'm like, you got to be kidding me. Your princess die and you have a vault of royal jewels. And I said that to her.

And I go, and you're asking about Francis's. And she goes, oh, no one has jewels like her. And I just thought this is my opportunity. And I said to her, I said, yes, I did. And let me say something to you. I said, when she died, she didn't take any of it. with her. Nobody goes to heaven with the U-Haul. What she took with her was her relationship with Jesus. And I said, Princess Die, you have everything in the world. I go, but if you don't have Jesus,

you're going to be empty. And I want you to know that he loves you. And then I just kind of dropped it, because you can only say so much. Right. And then later on, God called me to write her a letter because she was going through really the traumas of she was anorexic, you know, her eating disorders, and, you know, her infidelities with Prince Charles. And I was going through the same thing, really. I think I was an exercise anorexic. And the Lord just had me write or a letter. Well, you can imagine how embarrassing it is to go to the post office when you have to get an overseas stamp. And you say, you know, it says Princess Die and I had her private, you know, home address on there. And I'm sure the postman looks at me and goes, you know, like a child sending a letter to Santa Claus or something.

But the whole point was, is the highbrow stories is I really believe that God put me there for a reason because I didn't want anything from anyone. And obviously, I really don't care what people think about me because I've been destroyed in the press. But oh, well, because I feel like I'm doing what God's called me to do. But so many times. I feel like if you haven't been destroyed in the press, Drew, I mean, what's the sense of living, right? That's right. We've heard that, right? Yeah, exactly.

I've had every possible thing happened to me that you can match. It's not that big of a deal. But let's talk about your, you had a difficult divorce after 27 years of marriage. And talk about getting through that. And then also, if you don't mind, the moment that you had in Israel. Okay. When I sell my business, I want the best tax and investment advice. I want to help my kids, and I want to give back to the community.

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Of course. I love that's one of my favorite stories in the world because that's when God showed up. And that's the first time I knew I was going to be okay. So when I met Michael, we had this whirlwind romance. We met on an airplane. It was literally, if anyone could believe and love at first sight, that's what it was. And we were engaged in three weeks. I started talking to him about God and how important that was to me.

I brought him home to my dad and my dad prayed with him and he accepted Christ. and, you know, we went to church and had Bible studies from then on. And, you know, I just believed when you walk down the aisle, you don't walk down saying, well, maybe this will work, you know, hopefully this is right. No, I was madly in love with Michael, and I believe he was madly in love with me. He actually had a very abusive childhood, and we never dealt with that. So I wish I knew then what I know now. we probably would have been in years of counseling.

But there were a lot of infidelities in our marriage that I found out about. And I was truly heartbroken because, you know, my parents had a 67-year magnificent marriage. And I believe that my parents were more in love the day my mother died than the day they walked down the aisle. And that's all I've ever known. So I was just so heartbroken and devastated. I thought, you know, we're going to grow old. together, we're going to play with our grandchildren and have those Christmases where you wake up and drink coffee and, you know, the whole thing. And I was completely, completely devastated.

And the crazy thing was, Anthony, is we had a fabulous marriage. He was brilliant, like the hammers. And thank God my son's got that side of the family's brains. I'm just, I'm just scrappy. and he was funny and we had a blast together. We very seldom argued, but I think he found his self-esteem and affirmation from the attention of other women. And he was extremely good looking, like our son, Army and Victor, our two sons.

And I was really devastated. And I was so devastated that I probably got down to 110 pounds and I'm 5'8, my hair fell out. I was gray. I was just devastated. I didn't know what to do with myself. And Kathy Lee Gifford calls me and she said, we're going to Israel and you need to walk where Jesus walked.

And I said, great. So when my divorce was finalized, we go to Israel. And when I tell you, I became a Stepford wife. It was like I was a robot just getting through the day, but I completely shut down my emotions. I mean, I'm a little stubborn to be perfectly honest. honest, so I'm like, he is never going to see me cry. I would never give him that satisfaction. And I just became this empty shell, if you will, with no emotion. So the first five days I was there,

I was walking around. I'm walking down the road of Gassimony that we read in the Bible, and I felt nothing. And the fifth day we were there, we were in Cessaria, where Paul stood trial before King Herod for preaching the gospel. And I look down and I see this rock, this little stone. And it's in a shape of a heart, but it isn't a perfect commercial heart. It literally looked like the heart had been hammered. And I remember thinking that rock is exactly how my heart feels. My heart is so broken and hammered.

And I picked it up. And, you know, I don't know if anybody believes me about this, but this is exactly what happened. All of a sudden, this warmth came down me. I felt like the Lord had poured warm olive oil down my body. And for the first time, the Lord's not the first time he spoke to me, but for the first time, I was warm. And I'm holding this stone in my hand, and the Holy Spirit spoke to me. And he said, I'm going to take your heart a stone and turn it to flesh, and I'm going to heal your heart. and I began weeping.

It was like the emotional floodgates were opened. And from that moment, I thought, I'm going to be okay. I didn't know if I was going to be okay. I was so heartbroken. Oh, look, it's a beautiful story. Obviously, I don't beat my religious drum that off, but I was raised Catholic, Roman Catholic. I've been to Jerusalem on many occasions,

and I have a tremendous amount of faith. And so I wanted you to share the story. Let's talk about your son for a second. Okay. This is a very impressive young man, Army Hammer. Thank you. As you said, an incredibly good-looking guy, a movie star. Okay, you say in your book that he was morally wrong, but he wasn't a criminal.

Sometimes people get into trouble. You're a mom. You also believe in redemption and forgiveness, which I think is one of the hallmarks of our civilization. I'm not really sure how we exist as people. We don't have an opportunity for redemption and forgiveness. And so let's talk a little bit about him for a second and some of your thoughts there that you put in the book. Well, I actually originally did not want to put that in my book

because I just felt like it was his story to share and not mine. And one thing I will say, he's a bigger person than I am because when all of this was going on, I knew what was really going on in the back, I mean, these women stayed in my home and they were puppy dogs around my son. And I knew that there was no rape going on there. Trust me. But anyways, I, you know, I finally called him one day and I was like, okay, if you're not going to talk about it in the press, I've been getting a zillion requests from Vanity Fair to you name it. I go, can I? And he's like, no, mom, we're not

going to talk about it. The truth always comes out. I wasn't going to approach it in my book, but my editor, who made sure I didn't have any grammatical errors, which I'm sure I had a bunch of them. He called me one day and he said, Drew, if Army was your nephew, if he was a distant cousin, you don't have to deal with it. He's your son and you can't pretend like this didn't happen. This is the white elephant in the room. And if you're going to write a book, you have to discuss this because this has been the last four years. of your life and it's your family. And I really prayed about it.

So what I did is I wrote that chapter on everything that happened during cancel culture. Not everything, of course, because I want to protect some people involved. But I wrote about it and I sent Army and Victor a copy because Victor was going through his own trials with, that's another whole long story, but Michael's, the woman that he married for the last five years of his life, you know, there's been a lot of changes in wills, if you will. I won't go into details. But I had to face these things.

So I wrote the chapter and I sent it to my sons first. And I said, you will always be a priority over any book or anything I ever do. So if there's anything in there that you would like taken out, I'll take it out. Because you're more important to me than that. this. And Army read it and wrote me back immediately and he said, mom, I'm so proud of you. I think you handled it with integrity. He said, I wouldn't change one word. And then my other son said, you know, you're right on everything you wrote about, but because we are in legal issues. We have to take a few of these things out because we have not settled. And I said, great, we'll take them out.

So, you know, it was something I had to deal with. And this was probably, I also had to deal with Army's molestation at 14 because I feel like that was my biggest failure as a mother. And again, if I knew then what I know now, I didn't know that a youth pastor would groom the parents and look you in the eyes and go to dinner with you and go on family vacations with you. while they could ever be doing that behind your back. I was very naive about it. I'm first to say because growing up in my little Pentecostal background, I was never exposed to it. And by the way, maybe it did happen,

but it was swept under the carpet. So I'm grateful that today it is coming out so it can be dealt with. But at the time also, I didn't realize that children would blame themselves. So Army said to Michael and. me, look, you know, I'm not going to youth group anymore. You know, he's being inappropriate, but nothing happened because he felt it was his fault. And I think that was a really stemmed a lot of the problems and issues that he had as an adult because he had never dealt with it. Because in our minds, we didn't think anything really happened. And we probably should have been

way more proactive because like Army said to us. But mom, even if a youth pastor, someone in an authority in church and, you know, pretending to be this big Christian and ministering to all these kids, even if they attempt something, it really screws up a child. And I said, you're right. I did not even think about that. So that was one of my biggest failures. But I had to deal with that as well. Because again, if you're going to write a book, be honest. And hopefully, people can learn from your mistakes and they can learn from how faithful God was to me. Because the last thing I want to do is write a book that preaches to people and, you know, is in their face.

I just wanted to kind of show the world that it starts with forgiveness because if you don't forgive, it will destroy your life. And then God can start healing you and how faithful God is when we hit rock bottom and when our hearts are hammered. You know, listen, it's a beautiful story. And I let you go. I didn't want to interrupt you for one second because I think your message is a riveting message.

Thank you. I wanted to make sure that I gave you the time to speak about it. There's one other thing I want to bring up before I get into the last part of this episode. If you don't mind, I want to talk about hitting bottom. Oh, I'm a pro. with that. You know, what I have too, though, Drew, I think is why I relate so well to your book. I think Bob, I've been fired from the White House. I've, I've had business mistakes where I've made, been in business with the wrong people, made investment decisions sometimes that have gone really poorly for me.

And if you're a high-profile person, you are one. I am one. You have to face the music. You get a lot of chin music when you're dealing with that. So what are some of the things that you do from a self-talk perspective to build up your resilience and to build up this wonderful spirit and bounty of optimism. Well, I've always stood on this is I think it's very interesting that in the Bible, it says, do not fear 365 times. I don't think that's a coincidence. I think every day God is telling us, do not fear. And the interesting thing about the the whole ordeal when I went through my divorce, when the whole cancel culture happened with my son. And it's one thing to go through it in private. But when it's all over the press, all over the world,

you know, Army at one time was the number three person in the world Googled. And it was during that period when he was being canceled because it was the perfect storm. You know, it was COVID. People were stuck in their homes. They couldn't go to their office. They were lonely. So it was this feeding frenzy online. So it truly was the perfect storm. But here's reality. Like you said, you and I have both been through many, many trials.

But the thing is, is we can sit around and worry about it, lose sleep, take away our joy, you know, rob us of anything. And there's so many things in this world that we really do not have control over. we think we do, but we really don't. And at that time, Michael and I, you know, our, had to watch our son spiral. And there was really nothing we could do about it. You know, we helped him pay for attorney fees or whatever in his divorce.

But there's just so little you can really do. You can support them. I prayed for him every single day. And in my divorce, I couldn't control that. You know, I didn't want my marriage. break up. I was heartbroken. So I just think the way I dealt with it is because of my relationship with God is I am able to say, you know what, God, this is so out of my control and I can either let this destroy me or I can learn and I can be a better person because of it. Because again,

every heart is going to be hammered. And I'll tell you what, I always tell people, it's a choice. a choice and those that choice is i believe god created us as spiritual beings to have a relationship i mean i read that you have five children you're a brave soul you're braver than i am no i think it's i'm also very horny drew yeah so well you're having a great time good for you yeah bravery but also some hornyness i was just trying to get you to react to that you know because i know you're one of my peeps. All right. So I'm down to the last five words of our podcast. And so if you've listened to our podcast before, my producer and I, we come up with five words. I'm going to say the word. I want you to give me a reaction. Now, one sentence. React. So if I say the word.

I have a cheat sheet on this. Okay. Go ahead. Okay. You're ready? I say the word. I say the word faith. You say what? Everything. Everything. Okay. It's good. I say the word family. you say? Second to everything. Yeah. It's interesting. One of the cool things about family, from a religious perspective, one of the cool things, you don't choose these people. I mean, you chose your husband, but you don't choose the other people that come in. So you have to, you have to learn to love everybody unconditionally and they came in randomly, right? Right. They came in by God's choices. And my sons are fabulous people, but they do think I'm a little whackadoodle. You know, they're not on the same page, but that's okay. I'd rather be a little crazy.

Trust me, it's more fun to be a little crazy, Drew. Really? Army. I say the word army. You say what? Oh, it's two words. Good heart. Okay. What about the one word Drew, DRU? Relentless. Okay, I love that. What about the last name, Hammer? Oh, it's just such a perfect name for me. I'm always saying, Hammer Time. What would I say about Hammer? I would say strong. Okay.

Well, the title of this book is Hammered. It's written by Drew Hammer. She's an entrepreneur evangelist, a mom. I'm going to throw a mom in there. Yes, yes. A real person and a great author. The book is fantastic. I really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed speaking to you as well.

So much. So thank you for joining us on Open Book. Thank you for having me. I've enjoyed it. Thank you. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was Open Book. Thank you so much for listening. If you like what you hear, tell your friends and make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast.

While you're there, please leave us a rating or review. If you want to connect with me or chat more about the discussions, it's at Scaramucci on or Instagram, I'd love to hear from you. I'll see you back here next week. When a country's productivity cycle is broken, people feel it in their paychecks, their communities, their futures. What does this mean for individuals, communities, and businesses across the country? Join business leaders, policymakers, and influencers for CGs' national series on the Canadian standard of living, productivity and innovation. Learn what's driving Canada's productivity decline and discover actionable solutions to reverse it.