Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - Say Goodbye to Your Backup Plan with Matt Higgins

Episode Date: April 10, 2023

Anthony is joined by serial entrepreneur and friend, Matt Higgins to discuss his new book, Burn the Boats. Matt opens up about his own rags-to-riches life story and how he made it happen, with no room for Plan B. He shares his struggles with anxiety, loss, and failure – and reveals what his editors wouldn’t let him include in his book.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is open book where I talk with some of the brightest minds out there about everything surrounding the written word, from authors and historians to figures in entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe, wherever you get your podcast, and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the parts you're enjoying or how we can do better. You know I can roll with the punches, so let me know. Anyways, let's get to it. Don't you just love Matt Higgins? I know I do. Higgins is a

successful entrepreneur. He was the youngest press secretary in New York City history. He's a good friend of mine and he's an all-around great guy. But Matt hasn't had it easy and he's incredibly honest about his struggles and journey from the traumatic loss of his mother and scraping gum at McDonald's to becoming the self-made superstar he is today. Matt shares everything with us on today's show, including what his editors made him take out of his brand new book, Burn the Boats. So joining us now is Matt Higgins. He is a best-selling author. Congratulations on that, Matt. Your co-founder and CEO, RSC Ventures, a guest shark on the award-winning fabulous reality show, ABC Shark Tank, an executive fellow and teacher at the Harvard Business.

school, deservedly so, because you wrote an entire course in this book. I bought your book, Matthew, and I gave it out to every one of my nephews and sons, which as an Italian, you know, I've got many of those. But I'm a super fan of yours in general, but I mean, I loved everything about this book, okay? I mean, I loved the way you grew up. I loved the way you talked about your mother. I love your survival mechanisms. I love the rawness and the vulnerability. Thank you, by the way. First of all, I didn't expect you to read it. But thank you. No, we read these things.

I actually read these. Otherwise, I think the podcast will end up being a shitty thing. You know, it's like these typical reporters that ask questions. They don't even know what they're talking about. But you have this incredible life story. And you're also a cancer survivor, which I want to talk about that as well. But let's go to your upbringing and your mom and where you grew up and how you grew up and what you were thinking about as a kid.

Well, I grew up on Springfield Boulevard, Tony. So, you know, I mean, you know, you know generally that area, right? You over in poor Washington. So, yeah, a lot of people listening to this can relate, grew up in abject poverty. Those words tend to lose their emotional resonance because we say words like abject poverty. So to illustrate what that means, I grew up on government cheese and taking a Q27 bus in Queens to a church pantry was an hour away so that no one would see that we were getting our food and boxes and just a lot of attempts to hide the fact that I was poor. You know, Anthony, you remember growing up in our day, it wasn't like cool to be poor. Now you get wealth shamed, but back then it was that you did everything to hide it.

And I remember I used to sell flowers on street corners, on holidays, just basically doing everything I could to help cover up the fact that I was poor. So not only just to resonate that, my first job among many of my jobs was at key food. And I remember a family coming in and the mother took the food stamps out. You remember the food stamps, Matthew? Yeah. They take them out of the coupon book to pay for the groceries that were on the conveyor belt. And I remember her sadness, you know, and I remember I almost wanted to reach over to her and

say, hey, I'm not judging this at all. You know, I get this. I totally understand it. So, yeah, that was a different era than the one that we're living in now for sure. Yeah. And so my mother was fiercely intelligent, you know, divorced from my father. And I didn't understand a lot of these things at the time. Only as you become an adult, it all starts to make more sense. But, you know, she went to college as an adult to try to get her way out of poverty. And I remember thinking when I was a kid that, you know, she got a GED and that GED enabled her to go straight to Queens College. And around 13, 14, I was so desperate watching her slip away saying, look, the cavalry's not going to come. When you're a little kid, you have a lot of, you know, heroes in your mind. The first hero was

was maybe a man would come along and marry her and save us. And maybe the U.S. government would come along and provide food or health care. None of those things happened. And then eventually you start giving up. And that was my, my teen years, this disillusionment. And then I had an epiphany, which was, What if I replicated when my mother did inadvertently, but did it on purpose so that I could go from making 375 at McDonald's scraping gum under tables and actually get a job as a college student? Anthony, that was like my whole epiphany. It was like, you know what? If I could get to college fast, high school seems kind of irrelevant, then I could go ahead and get a better paying job. You know, you can imagine the reaction at Cardoza High School. You know, when I tell everybody this plan, I would get picked up by the truan cops and be like, no, no, I have a plan. No, this is all part of my plan. And that's when I made my first burn the boats move. I realized, you know, when you see something and people don't have the full context and it goes against conventional wisdom, everybody's going to do everything they can to put you back in that box. And despite me telling the guidance counselor, my teacher, is like, no, there's a better way than

sitting in this waste of time high school. I can go to college. All I got to do is crush the GD. Those words don't usually go together, crush GD. And then I did my burn the boats move. I sabotaged my education. Got left back two years in a row, sat in the same homeroom with the drug dealers and the land of misfit toys, I used to call it. And then I had to execute. And I dropped out of high school when I was

16. I mean, you write about this beautifully. I mean, you, you, uh, tell us about this. You've returned your textbooks to your science teacher. Scientisture says, Matt Higgins, I'll see you at McDonald's. Yeah. Tell us, tell us that story. As I have the story in a book that, uh, uh, Anthony's referring to, you know, like, that is all, this is all 100% true. This isn't like romanticizing after the fact. And at the same time, Mr. Rosenthal is actually a sympathetic character because what he said was probably going to be true. But there's the equivalent of the academic walk of shame when you have to return your textbooks. And of course, I didn't open any of these textbooks. And so I don't know why I cared.

Like, I don't know if they were going to like send me like a bill or something. But I was a dutiful little high school dropout. So I went and returned my textbooks. And when I went to return to Mr. Rosenthal, I, you know, I remember him looking straight at the class. Doesn't look at me. First he says, you know, what's this? I said it's the, it's the unopened textbook. Mr. Rosenthal.

And he's like, oh, I said, this is my last day of high school. And he said, without missing a big, Higgins, what a waste. I'll see at McDonald's. And everyone's like, oh, snap, you know, like, you know, the whole bit. And I'm Irish. Anyone who knows me knows I get like beat red. Like, I almost pass out when I'm nervous. I thought I was going to literally pass out.

I slither towards the door. No bullshit. Hand on the door. And I was like, this can't be the last thing I hear in high school. And I turn around and I say, you know, Mr. Rosenthal, if you see me at McDonald's, it's because I owned it. And then everyone's like, you're going to take that. You know, and then, but I also talk in a book about how bravado notwithstanding, I sat on the steps

of Cardoza High School, packed my Marlboro's at the time, lit a butt. And I was like, you know, he's probably right. This is absolutely crazy. But I was so depressed. I would spend times, and I don't talk about this in a book, because the editors, you know what I regret? The editors made me like edit out the stuff that people really are telling me that resonates with him. So let me tell you the reality. I was very self-destructive as a kid. I was so desperate. I was so frustrated. And it's not that I actually wanted to be destructive. I wanted somebody to relieve me of the responsibility. I did not want to be a parent at 11 years old or 12 years old. I was not equipped to deal with a mother who was slowly slipping away and depressed herself.

And I was designated as the hero child while the other brothers left. And I didn't want that role. And so, you know, that's not the kind of thing you share as a kid because you don't know how to share that. You don't know how to go to Mr. Rosenthal or Mr. Barkin and be like, hey, can I tell you the reality is I am dangerously feeling self-destructive? And I am not vested in your system. And I need a way to get out of here or also I'm going to hate everybody, including my mother. And I found a hack. So can you just get behind the hack? But instead, it looks like a kid who's throwing it all away, smart, you know, they don't understand.

And so I sat on the steps of the high school and thought like, all right, this is crazy. Now you have to confront this decision. But I picked myself up. And I remember back then, in order to avoid registering the statistic, they had a, they had their own hack, which is to send the dysfunctional kids over to the auxiliary services for high school. A fancy euphemism for dropped out, but it wasn't, it was like another high school. And I showed up at that. And I was like, no, no, no.

This is even more depressing. And I took my GD on standby at Springfield Gardens High School in Jamaica, Queens, ended up getting a very high score, went to Queens College, enrolled in Queens College. And then I came back to my prom as president of the debate team. And I remember seeing the look in their face that had gone from pity and disdain or whatever the look was. Maybe it was in my head to one of respect. In fact, my Spanish teacher was taking classes at the same time at my college.

the one who is my homeroom monitor. So the reason why I'm saying this is I want to redeem Mr. Rosenthal as well because it was logical and it was generally, you know, tough love. But the reality is no one had the full information because I wasn't sharing it. And that's a big part of why I wrote this book. And I talk about so many personal details. The little burning boat on the cover is meant to be a boat in a kid's bathtub. And the reason why is part of the things that a lot of us have to deal with is shed those

legacy items that stem from childhood. And I talk so openly, even now, I haven't talked about this before, some of my emotions, because somebody out there is being like, damn, I still never did get over those dad issues or those mom issues, and that's what's holding me back. Well, I mean, listen, you, I mean, your authenticity, even before I read the book, you know, you and I've known each other now for a long time. And I've always had a lot of love and affection for you, but. Same. And look at our hair, Tony. Look at our hair.

Yeah, we got great. I mean, come on. We got great hair. Although, I'm putting a little more hair dye in mind than yours. No, yours. I'm being more subtle about mine. I could always introduce you to my colorist, though, because you don't know. You don't want to look like a snowman on television, okay?

We're going to get to your television show in a second. But you have this positive aura about you and you have this pathos about you where I think you see people in all of their contexts. And there's a great expression that my grandmother used to say in Italian that you clearly have an abundance of, which you used to say, the best among us choose not to judge human frailty so harshly. And I think you have that gift. I think you see people through whatever their glints are or whatever their facades are,

and you see the subtlety to their personality. Can you say that in Italian, by the way? It probably sounds very lyrical in a time. Yeah, actually, because, you know, the truth is she spoke a dialect of Italian, and it would sound very gutteral, and I don't even how to speak it, but she was from a southern Italian town that really didn't speak Italian, right? That's all those bizarre dialects down in southern Italy. But what I would say, and I want to get your reaction to this, because you mentioned being the hero child.

So dysfunctional families, families of one-parent families, families that have alcoholism in them or various issues, one child does try to wash away the sins. Okay. President Clinton wrote about this in his book. He said, my father died while my mom was pregnant. I was supposed to be William Jefferson Blythe. She married Roger Clinton. I became William Jefferson Clinton.

and he was going to launder his life. He went to Yale and then onto Oxford and then into the American presidency. And so you mentioned the self-destruction, but underneath the self-destruction, and you write about it beautifully, was this drive, this passion, this ambition. How did you convert from self-destruction into, okay, I've got this, I'm going to pursue my dreams and my ambition? Well, great question. My mother and I used to have these very, I was very, I was very, aware, and I think kids are, anybody out there listening to this who's in a tough situation, we sort of have an intuition of what is right and wrong in terms of a typical home dynamic, even if we've never been exposed to what typical looks like. So even though I had assumed the role

of the hero child, I was aware that it was dysfunctional and was probably going to rewire the brain in some bad way. And I was very defiant and vocal about it. So I'd have these far-reaching conversation with my mother saying, like, I don't know, you know, I think the way you're oriented toward the world. It's like, I don't understand why would we want to live that way? And so as she became more and more depressed, we'd have open conversations about how she felt like she couldn't take custody of getting knee surgery. Her knees were fading. And I would always be like, well, let's get surgery to replace them. Who's going to take care of me? And she struggled with a few different things and would always feel like she had no choice. And then eventually, after becoming completely disillusioned with the

universe and realizing no one's going to intervene, I remember having this epic conversation where I said, you know what? I'm tired of life being framed. Like we were preordained to be victims. And I think there's another way. I have decided that I happen to things and things don't happen to me. And I'm going to, and this is a true conversation. I remember. And what does that mean? That's easy for you to say when you're a kid. You don't know what life's like when you're dying. I was like, no, I do because we're dying, actually, uh, some of us sooner than later. And I just was born with this very empathetic, but defiant streak to protect myself. But it was actually a choice that I made to reorient my view. So some people say my book is a product of hindsight bias. And I'm like, well, if you choose to believe that

nothing's possible and the deck is stacked against you, I guess it might look like hindsight bias. But this is 100% purely an attitude that I adopted. I didn't use the word burn the boats, you know, when I was a kid. But there was this before and after, a period before when I felt scrambling for the hero or the intervention or, you know, or sad to the time after when I was the agent in my own rescue, you know. And so it's important to talk about that because there's been a lot of think celebration of victimhood. I think it's actually very cynical. You're just denying people a chance to sort of lift themselves out of whatever situation. That doesn't mean you don't be empathetic that somebody has been victimized. That's different than being identified as a victim. And so

my mother, and there's a lot more than I don't go into the book because it's supposed to be a business book, really was truly tortured a lot of her life. And there are a lot of reasons, legitimate reasons for her behavior. But I have never wavered in my view that we get the last choice until our last breath to how we respond. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's very well said. And obviously, right about dealing with the loss of your mom and the complexity there. You know, I got to ask this, if you don't mind, why would the editors take out all this good stuff? You know, there's some Frank McCourt shit in here. You know what I mean? Why'd they take it out on you? I mean, I think that the feeling was nobody knows you yet. And, you know, they do know you, but they're signing up for a business book that it just like crossed the line.

You know what I mean? I originally had a story in the book. I'll tell you this. Anthony, you could relate Do I have a minute to tell you a little bit of a deeper story? It's your show, my brother. All right. Well, so this is, like, imagine the juxtaposition of the April 2nd, 2001, right? I have gone from scraping gum at McDonald's at 13 years old, working over a night, Deli at 14, dropping out at 16, you know, making $3.75 to $5 an hour that in the course of a single decade and an erase a out of poverty and it eke out a little bit of my own independence.

I'm still living with my mother in my house. I'm 26. I am still not a single friend has ever walked through those doors before. I'm sleeping on the floor in a chewed-in mattress because I am no longer present. I've totally disassociated from this environment. And I am press secretary to the mayor of New York that day, Rudy Giuliani. The second hardest job in the United States in terms of press, right? And my mother's on an oxygen mask and unable to leave her chair.

We have no money. She can't even bathe herself anymore. It is completely an absolute horror show. And I know that I need to replenish that bank account. And that whole night, like typical, she was, you know, moaning and pain. And, like, I would always have to sleep with a towel wrapped around my head because I could, I could hear through the holes just in case this was the one night. You know what I mean?

So, like, you're talking about years and years of just no sleep, just listening and hypervigilant. I get up in the morning and she pleads with me, don't go to work that day. And she's like, I'm sick. And I'm like, well, like, we were always sick. And, like, I have no money. And by the way, I'm press secretary of the mayor of New York. And she's like, just stay home. And so, you know, I talk about this in a book.

look, she called me back in after I walked out, you know, Matt. And then I said, what? She's like, can you turn the TV on and give me some applesauce? I'm like, why applesau? She's like, because I'm going to lose the weight. I'm going to finally lose the weight. I mean, this is the last day of her life. And I get to the office, City Hall, and then she calls.

And she tells me that, you know, when you call an ambulance, apparently you have to go to the hospital. I said, this an ambulance there? I said, well, that's great. Finally, somebody's going to do something. Where are you going? Long Island Jewish. I said, okay, great, I'll meet you there. And then when I ran home, I decided, let me get her some stuff.

Tony, we used to sit at the emergency room all night long. It would never lead to anything. I'd have my law books there studying because it would just be, you know, all night. Nothing would happen. But I went and gather her stuff. And it was an ambulance in the middle of the street. And I said, well, that's weird. And where is the ambulance?

And the second one had gone. And I realized they left in a hurry. And as I was pulling up to Long Island Jewish, I saw an ambulance going down the ramp. And I saw my mother sitting in the back. And I remember thinking like, yet again, no one ever helps, no matter what happens, nothing ever happens. And when I walk in, the woman I said, hey, I'm here to see my mother. She just left. You know, like, I just want to find out what happened. No, I'm sorry. She just passed away. And I was like, what? And I remember,

it was almost like an apparition. A voice in her said, said, uh, the, the paramedics were kind. Can you find the paramedics to say thank you? So I did. And they said, oh, and then she, they had said, oh, she didn't want to go because she couldn't bathe herself and she was embarrassed. And so it took a long time. And unfortunately, by the time we got her to leave, it was too late. I told that story in the first pass of the book because it says everything about shame and dysfunction and pain and no happy ending. And I sat on that place screaming at the top of my lungs, no one did anything.

That was my like screaming to the point that they came over to give me a sedative. It all came out, 26 years of, you know, of not telling the truth. I'm just saying like, nobody did anything. There were so many chances to intervene. Now, I shared that in the first past of the book. Why am I talking about it right now? Because I know somebody out there is a caretaker and feels like they are caught between a rock and a hard place. They're trying to do the right thing and they desperately wish somebody else would shoulder the load. And the reality is oftentimes nobody else tries to help. And all those emotions came out the first day. So anyway, that was in a book.

I mean, so, you know, they should have left it in, frankly, because a good, part of business, as you and I both know, is dealing with that, you know, and dealing with whatever the trials and tribulations are at home while you're trying to manifest and create your business. And I think that you have this among your many superpowers is your connection, your ability to empathize with people. And I think it comes from your honesty. I think it comes from your ability to reflect on these things so brilliantly. So I appreciate you sharing that on on the open book podcast. But I want to ask you this. I've been dying to ask you this when I close the book is I've got to ask Higgins this question. I'm dying to ask him this question.

When do you know that you have something wrong? When do you know where, because, you know, we're a guy like you or frankly a guy like me. I'm in a never quit mode. I've got switched on. I'm going to go right through the wall, you know, but sometimes things are not working. And so therefore you then have to say to yourself, okay, I have to share. that aspect of myself down and redirect myself or I have to adapt my business. The business plan I originally had, I'm not, I've burnt the boats, Matt, but I'm out on the beach, but the direction I'm going in, I've got to go in a different direction. When do you know that? When do you know when to adapt and pivot? How do you reconcile that with the fierceness of your personality

to succeed? Such a great question because it's nuanced, right? Because some people would infer from what you and I are talking about or even the book, oh, well, just keep trying, trying, trying, and then eventually, you know, it'll work out. That is definitely not the moral of my story. Like, you know, I, for me, because you've made a number of career pivots. You've made a number. Right, right. Well, I'm always saying to myself, and I keep this very close in my head and repeat it, the answer to the test is always try harder, but not try same, try different, right? And so I'm very comfortable pivoting. And I do believe, in my experience, the universe is very benevolent, and it always gives you an opportunity to course correct before it's too late.

So if you audit your bad things that you've done, your bad decisions, you usually can identify the moment that the universe gave you the signal to go ahead and pivot. So that's why I talk about in the book, I look for people who have a blend of confidence and humility because those types of people have the confidence and humility to acknowledge that things are not going well and then to make those course corrections. So I guess the short answer is like, I am not one to keep trying to do the same thing over and over again. I am very comfortable with abandoning tactics and then pivoting and try something, trying

something different. So there's no hard and fast rule about when do you know. It's more, I find a certain type of person that lacks self-awareness or lacks confidence and humility. They believe, if they have drive, you just keep doing it and you muscle through. And I don't like backing those people, to be honest. Right. No, you have to have more flexibility. You know, I have to have the can-doism and you have to have the never quit burn the boats, but you also have to have some flexibility in the plan as you're moving downfield. You know, what we're clearing-dus. Bezos has a great line. You don't have to be rigid in your vision, but flexible in your execution, which I think is a 100% true.

It's well said. There's something you and I have in common when I was reading about your Mayor Giuliani experience. Of course, I have known about your Mayor Giuliani experience from our personal relationship. He helped me immeasurably when I was a kid. I wrote him a check for $250 in 1989. I was young Republicans for Rudy.

You know, he lost that election. But when he subsequently went on to win, I got tight with Carbonetti and Eric had some amos, all these different guys, and they helped me with my career. And listen, And we can reflect on him any way people want today. But I always reflect on him fondly because of my young relationship with him when I was a kid.

And I would say to you that he did a great job as mayor and set the course for a good trajectory for the city. How do you feel now, though? How do you, what do you say about this situation with the mayor today? Yeah, I mean, similar to you, I differentiate version 1.0 versus version, you know, I don't know what version this is. but the version I remember, I remain appreciative of and steadfastly loyal to, right? Like, he did a phenomenal job with the city. Also, he, for me, as a kid, like, he didn't care about pedigree or poverty or anything. Like, he just knew I was talented and he gave me every opportunity in the world.

He was an amazing executive. Not everything was perfect, right? When you look back, I think there's a world in which, you know, there is a compassion of broken windows that doesn't require stop and frisk and can preserve people's civil rights. And so there were a lot of access in the wrong direction. But, you know, Net Net, he really did a tremendous job bringing murder down from, I think it was, $2,300 at a peak to 600 and brought the welfare rolls down from 1.1 to $700,000. It created a lot of opportunity.

So he was, you know, a great leader. And in terms of what happened subsequent, I think it was a quest for relevancy, probably, which sometimes happen to people when they fall the limelight and they used to being in charge, they get a little older. They do wacky, wacky shit. And so it's the only explanation for it. But I don't know. I haven't talked to him in years, but I remain very appreciative, only say good things about

Adam, you know. And at the same time, never felt, never felt like I signed an oath of fidelity that I had to underwrite every, every crazy thing anybody does. But he did a great job for the city. And now the city is a disaster in a lot of ways, which is a shame. I think Mayor Adams is a good guy inherited a messed up situation. And we're, we're like weirdly going to have to relearn everything we learned in the late 90s, that if you don't enforce these quality of life crimes, you telegraph to everyone that the rules don't apply. And like the fact that we have to have a sign now on the village that says make sure to take your belongings with you and you leave your car like what? So now it's, it's my fault if somebody breaks my window and steals my stuff. They have the car windows open and the trunks open in San Francisco now.

So they like and they have signs in the car, please, there's nothing in the car, you know. Really? Yeah. They don't want the windows smash. And I, and I think, I think we're doing a disservice to ourselves. You know, there's a, there is right and wrong. There's good and bad. And I think we're doing a disservice to ourselves. There's no reason not to protect the innocent and the well-intended. I get the fact that we want to, you know, have dignity for people and civil rights. And I appreciate all that. But there is right or wrong in a society.

You have to make people feel safe. If you don't make them feel safe, they migrate, Matthew. Okay, they migrate, right? Well, that is the difference, by the way, in a New York of yesteryear, like when it was, you know, the financial capital of the world still is to a degree. That is changing rapidly, but also all capital now is completely portable. And in fact, those who control capital are the most portable and the most open-minded to it. I think the biggest seal that was broken, there were many in terms of human behavior, but also how we operate financially.

One of the biggest seals was that the people in charge of capital now feel comfortable working remotely. At first day, they were resentful of it. And I'm like, nobody works, right? Like a certain generational issue. But now they've availed them. They've discovered this place called Palm Beach. And they're like, you know what? That's fine.

I'll flee the jurisdiction. And so I think the danger, whereas before, remember we had the hotel occupancy tax in New York, used to be like almost 20 percent, something crazy. Maybe that's the wrong number, but it was insane. And what it did is people voted, tourists voted by going to other jurisdictions because they didn't want to pay the hotel occupancy tax. Tourists are always inherently mobile. They can choose anywhere.

Now capital has become mobile. And those are controlled businesses say, if I don't like the environment, taxes, crime, or otherwise, I will flee the jurisdiction and I will run it remotely. You know what I mean? And that is why I'm so concerned about New York more than ever before. Because before people just used to have to grin and bear it and fight. for it. Now they could flee from it from it from the comfort of Florida. It's like I tell Spike Lee, him and I'll be the two people shutting the lights out on the city. I mean, I can't go anywhere because I'm in,

I'm welded to the city. Same. But it doesn't mean I can't be old, you know, eyes wide open on the, on the, those who can, right? No, I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm with you on. So what do we do about it? You're going to run for mayor? You should run for mayor. I should run for mayor. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm running for reelection in my marriage, okay? And I'm, and I know, but that's going well. It's from what I read. I mean, she has a platform of gastration, though. Yeah, but where is she? I'll talk to her back in the day. I'll tell you what.

I would rather run from governor or the mayor, just so you know. Really? You don't have, it's much less power. No, you never read the state constitution then. They really understand that. I know they have the trains and they have the schools, but nonetheless, you have the police. They get the trains into schools, but they can also put a, trust me, read the state constitution. All right, all right.

Ask Andrew Cuomo how much power the governor actually has. That's fair. That's fair. All right. But you know what? It still doesn't get as much respect as the mayor of New York around the country. Well, you know, to me. You could be the next Fiorella LaGuardia.

Remember the flower? What was it called again? A little flower. I have too much respect for Eric Adams. I ever say that I would, I can't run against Eric Adams. All right. I didn't say that. I'm just saying if you got tired.

If you just want to go clubbing instead. I know you guys have to be in bed with Kathy Huckle as most real estate people do. But I don't, I'm not in love with the whole way she's operating. But anyway. I'm not real estate. I just have an apartment. But go ahead. Yeah, but let's not talk about her because then that'll end up in the press and then we'll both be in trouble.

All right, so, so I've got a couple more questions for if you don't mind. Please. We have a couple friends in common, Steve Ross. Yep. You call Uncle Steve, Kathy Wood. You actually read the acknowledgments. You're so thorough. I am so impressed.

Yeah, I read the acknowledgments. You read the acknowledgments. I worked hard on those. You had everybody in there. Mark Hoffman, Mark Burnett, everybody. I was reading the acknowledgment. I was reading the acknowledgments. the acknowledgments looking for my name.

No, that's fair. That's a second book. No, but it's funny, I worked hard on the acknowledges saying this is an epic opportunity to tell all the people who sort of made those little trajectory changing interventions in your life, I remember. I'm going to tell you why I read the acknowledgments because you're such a good people person. I wanted to see the people that were in your orbit, okay, that you were graciously acknowledging

in your book. But let's go to those people. Let's go to a few of them. Kathy Wood, Stephen Rock. What are they all have in common? What do you learn from these people? Ah, man, they have a healthy defiance for the rules and convention. You know what you mean? They don't submit, right? They just don't. And they don't need them. It's in trouble, though. I mean, they write a negative story about me every two months, Matt. It gets you in trouble when you defy people and you say...

Does it bother? It bothers my family. No, it doesn't bother me. I actually perversely enjoy. I mean, you know me long enough to know that I think it's funny at this point. Everyone listening, you know, maybe they don't know the depth of your IQ. Like, let's just be honest, how incredibly intelligent you are. So there isn't anything that happens that's like inadvertent. I didn't know they were going to say that about you. I have a tendency to plan things. I didn't expect the journalist whose family I knew for 50 years to run his mouth to CNN when I was talking about Steve Bannon. That's my fault, though.

I never blamed him. I only blamed myself on that. Yeah, that's a hard one. That's a hard one to blame anyone else for. No, no, no. That was 100% my fault. I owned it. I never blamed anybody.

I accepted my firing as expected and I was accountable for it. And by the way, it probably helped my career. It probably saved my marriage, Matt. How about that? How about that for honesty, okay? That's more important than anything else. Because, I mean, my wife hates Trump almost as much as Melania hates him. And that's like way up here.

And so there was no way I was going to survive that, you know. But let me, let me ask you this. What do these great people have in common? defiance is one of the things. Okay, another one. What are some of the other things? I believe they judge things on the merits. At least for me, the commonality of all those people is they're on paper.

At the moment those people helped me realize my full potential, I didn't technically deserve it. You know what I mean? Deserve it in terms of did not either have the credentials, did not have the experience, did not have the age, the seasoning, whatever it was. And those people look past that generally. You know what I mean? Yeah, but you're not giving yourself enough. credit, I got to push back because there's a likeability quotient to you and there's a kendoism

quotient to you that people would bet on, you know, irrespective. I appreciate you saying that. I mean, I say that, you know, easy to say in hindsight, maybe not as much at the moment in time. But I think it's a lesson from your book. You have to go with the can-do attitude. You will gravitate more Kathy Woods and Steve Ross's and Mark Burnett's. if you have this congeniality about you and a can-do attitude, though.

Is that fair to say? I mean, you write that in your book. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, you're telegraphing, like, I'm actually, let's just deconstructed, right? I always look for, when I try to distill whether I'm going to back a person and you have all your criteria, but what does it boil down to? Do I believe this person will just figure it out when they need to just figure it out, right? Because as you said earlier, the pivots, right, that we have to make when things aren't

working? Like, that's what you're betting on. Is this person both have the propensity and the capacity to make the right pivots along the way? I'm pivoting right now as we speak, my friend, okay? Thankfully, I'm doing hips. What do you? We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. Okay. It's festering, as they say. Okay. So I ask my authors, I give out five words. They're all themes in your book, I might add. And I want you to give me your reaction to these things. Okay, you're ready? I just, one word or a sentence? Or you know. It's you're Irish. You got to get more than one word.

I'm half Irish. All right. You're half Irish. You're half Irish. You're going to get like 10 words. Yeah, come on. This is, I'm Italian. I believe in the opera.

I love the opera. I love the drama. Okay, ready? Yep. Instinct. Should we trust it? Yes, 100%. And we've been conditioned to do the opposite.

And we think the answers are in the shelves of Barnes & Noble or in TED Talks. When in the first place you should look is within. Okay. I love that. That's a great part of your book. Anxiety. How do we manage our anger? anxiety. Our anxiety should not be something that you try to extinguish, but rather something you harness.

I look at it almost like, you know, radioactive material, right? You need to contain it, but you want to channel it and unleash it. It's always a delicate balance. So you want to maintain an optimal state of anxiety just enough to catalyze you to take action, not too much to make you paralyzed. I share stories in a book about both. And the time when I was paralyzed was when I went on Shark Tank and I was so freaked out about imposter syndrome. I didn't sleep for two days, almost couldn't perform. And that is not the type of anxiety. You want enough to drive you to be your best, but not too much to cripple you. Okay. Failure. Is it important? Failure should be avoided at all cost, but you should be extracting value from it whenever it happens. I think that we sort of perpetuate this lie lately,

that we want to like soft pedal failure and we act like failure is desirable. It's not desirable. It's just something that you shouldn't avoid striving in order to make sure you don't have it, right? It's a byproduct of when you are taking a lot of bads. So it's nuanced. My process for failure, I think when people fail, the first thing they try to protect is their reputation, when what they should be trying to protect is their self-esteem. My process for failure is, number one, acknowledge that I failed out loud, so it loses its emotional resonance and its power for me. Number two, I ensure that I have not allowed my identity to be enmeshed with that failure. And I say, I am not a failure. Number three, what is this failure trying to teach me? Like, how do I find value from it? And then four, I bury it in the backyard and I never returned to it again. And you let it go, right? You let it go. Yeah. But I, you see my point, like these Instagram posts like, failure is great. Like, that rings hollow. That's bullshit. Nobody wants to fail. Failure is definitely not great. But the point, I think the point is that you learn from it,

but you can also let it go. And I think it builds resilience. I mean, I have failed more time. I have failed upward, my friend. You know, the more times I have failed, better I have been at my life, I think. I talk about this in a book, which I don't totally possess. Maybe you do. I find that the most outrageously successful people handle failure by simply broadening the

definition of success. In other words, when they have a win, they like their self-esteem is enhanced. when they have a loss or like, uh-uh, it's not going to penetrate. In fact, they almost act. They co-opt it and be like, oh, I'm really glad that happened because, you know, I intended it almost. It's incredible. Sounds delusional, but that's how they protect their self and worth. And then they drive value from it.

I think we're both a little delusional. I don't think we can be who we are if we're not quite a delusional. Power. How should we use it? Sparingly, I have, I remember when I was at the Jets, what's interesting about when you're at a football team is that the lines are very blurry between the coach, the GM and the business lead. not really sure who controls it. I used to say to Eric Mangini and Mike Tanavow, the GM and coach at the time, let's put all of our power in the center of the table so that nobody has to use it. Because if we have to actually resort to that power, then we're failing. So I say sparingly.

Okay. I think that's interesting. I mean, you're right about that. Last one, greatness. Can everybody achieve greatness, Matt? Yes, because I think greatness is the full pursuit of one's potential and purpose for why we're on this earth. I think it's completely subjective. And I'm not just saying, that I truly believe that's the case, that there is no objective standard for greatness. All right. Let's do, can we gossip a little bit? Look at how close you and I are. Come on.

Yeah, this was fun. I like these questions. These are like, I think. Come on prepared. You wrote an amazing book. I'm on the book. Thank you. The book is awesome.

And you deserve the praise for the book. And I also think that you've done something, which I think is very interesting. You are a people collector. You are a people lover and you're somebody that cherishes people. I think it comes out in the book. I'm sure you're the same. I've had all these wonderful interactions with people throughout the course of my career where I do believe I've made a trajectory changing difference and created space through vulnerability. And my thought was if I could scale those interactions at large and basically pull back the curtain on what does it take to really go all in, not for the self-possessed, like the Kevin O'Leary's at a world, you know, or constructed with steel and really don't care what people think.

But for the other rest of us who have anxiety, we're born of dysfunction, carry shame. You know, if I could write a book that could show them that you don't need to do. deny yourself all the things you want, but there's probably something holding you back. Let me model to you what it looks like to shed those things in your life, those internal and external obstacles. Let me model it for you both with me, but for 50 different athletes, celebrities, everybody to show they all had a metaphorical boat to burn. I could impact people's lives on such a scale that it's breathtaking. And so for me, writing this book brings a lot of meaning to my life because, you know, there's been times when I think about watching my mother die and

her life almost seems like, what's the point? You know, why did this happen? I feel like writing this book and sharing what I went through and lending a hand to all those people out there who maybe don't have the support network, that brings meaning not only to my life, but to her life. Yeah, I think as well say, and I had the chance to meet your wife at the autism dinner that we did at Chipriani's a while back. Do you remember? That's right. Yeah, yeah, back in that was a while ago. Yeah, I've been blessed. I mean, the greatest force multiplier in the world. Well, I will say this to you. I'm always impressed. I always come out of our conversations, learning something. But let's gossip. I want to gossip a little. Okay, we're going to gossip. What are we gossip about? What are we doing you? Can we talk about the new show?

You can we can talk about the new show. It's mostly in an irritation because it was supposed to run on CNBC. They moved in a different direction. They moved off a bunch of their shows right now. So my show is an orphan in search of a home. We shot the show. It's called business hunters. Everyone, that was its title. But the purpose of the show was to, we all watch Shark Tank. We love Shark Tank. But we actually, if you think about it, can't really relate to Shark Tank, most people will never have an invention that they'll get in front of VC and try to raise money for it's unnatural. And most of the things on Shark Tank are like inventions or whatnot. But almost everybody had one point, has had a dream of owning their own business. And there's a world in which you can buy a business. And people don't know, like, how do you buy a business? How do you value a business? Where do you get the money from? So Mark Burnett came up with this idea, which is great. He's a creator of Shark Tank and The Apprentice and whatnot. Let's make a show for the rest of America who would love to buy a business and teach them how. So I love this process. Anybody out there has ever seen house hunters, it's the same idea. I'd present usually a couple with three different options for a business of what they want, a restaurant, dry cleaner.

And it's my job to basically diligence, deconstruct it for them, how do we value it, and then help negotiate a deal. So it's an amazing concept. Took a time we shot eight episodes. So hopefully by the time you somebody out there hears this back, you know, a year from now, it's on some station somewhere. You were originally going to put it on CNBC. They're going in a different direction.

but it's still your show. It's packaged. It's edited. It's, you know, it's just, we're in a weird time in TV, so it's like finding the right home for it. But there's content everywhere, so it'll find a home. Well, I look, you have a great presence. I'm sure it's an amazing show. And obviously, I met Mark a few times during the Trump transition. He's obviously a brilliant guy and load of success.

So I'm confident that will work out. Give me some, give me some gossip. Give me some juice. Something. I don't know. I'm just. kidding. I don't know what I'm going to gossip about. I'm so, like, I'm stuck on your hair. Every time I have, like, a moment to think, I just sort of like it's stuck in that hair. You can tug a bow with this, right? And it's an Italian chie a pet, and I actually got to light. I get that there's been a little bit of coloring intervention, but has there been a hair weave, or is that all that? No, get the hell out of that's real hair. There's no hair weave. I didn't know what a bridge too far would look like. That's Latin American dictator brown. I was using Cuban leader black, but it looked like shit on television. So I lightened it up. Okay. Can I look like my friend Sean on TV like a snowman.

I have to ask you a question. Notwithstanding your feelings for Trump, do you think the potential indictment is make sense or is a mistake? I think it's a mistake. I've spoken publicly about it. I spoke publicly about it on Twitter spaces, on television. I spoke publicly about it with my old professor, Alan Dershowitz on Chris Cuomo show recently. I do not want Mr. Trump, President Trump, to be president again.

He has no executive management skills. It's very clear. I can explain to you how he will mash up and destroy the executive branch of the government, and he'll also impair us and probably threaten the democracy. So for those reasons that I wanted to be the president, I'm a lifelong Republican. I think there are better messengers than that party. I think we have to get off of Trumpism if we want to restore unity to the culture and our society. And so we need common sense, self-reliance values in the country, no question.

There's one thing I will say to you that John Katzum and Tidis once said to me, And you know, John, and I know John, he's an observer of people. Trump does not like people. Okay, you're a lover of people. You know I love people. You got to have a president that actually likes people, Matthew. Okay, he does not like them. Okay, the way he treats them is an obvious sign that he doesn't like them.

And so for me, I don't want him indicted. I think it sends the wrong message, but I don't want to be president again. And I will campaign against them if he gets that nomination. And I think he could get that nomination. I don't see anybody in that party that has the galvanized support. port that he has. Now, if it's him against one other person, they may be able to take him on, maybe. But if it's him against seven other people, I think he'll roll them like bowling pins. Yeah, I think, I think provided what we read is the case, right, so the details, the outlines

that basically, you know, covering up the source of that payment and in pursuit of furtherance of covering up another crime, it just seems like not the right. It seems like a very weak case to be the one to bring against a president of a country. And I come from the same perspective you do. I mean, the difference of you and I was pretty vocal, you know, during the election. In 2016, 2016, yeah. Yeah, and the reason why is just, you know, look, I've always been a centrist anyway, but I felt like Trump was going to normalize hateful behavior and sort of say whatever you need to say to get what you want.

And that was going to take the country down a terrible road. I think that has, you know, manifested. And it's very hard to put that genie back in the bottle. Yeah. But I agree with you. You can't discount him, right? Like, it would be impossible. Like, I never would have predicted he would want.

But I think actually bringing that case against him was the wrong case. Bring and I think and I saw Governor Cuomo he was making the same exact argument it's like it's a pretty bipartisan view of people are honest that this has not seemed to be the case to bring now in the same time I think Trump actually being so you know outrageous and insane I don't know about you Anthony I don't see the upsurge I don't see the outrage I don't see that I mean there's levels of indifference but remember and he didn't have a big event in Waco and maybe some of his support is waning but remember if he's got 20% support and there's 12, 14, 15 people running against them.

He's going to roll them. Yeah, it's a good point. I didn't really thought about that, right? Because it's a little bit of a jump ball, right? And you know, the Republicans are going to smell blood eventually with the economy turning, right? So you're going to have a ton of people throwing their hat in the ring. It's a good point. We'll see what happens.

Every dog catcher sees himself as president, as you know. So, well, this book, what I have told people is I give it out because it's so well-versed in how people should be thinking about the. themselves and life. The title of the book is Burn the Boats. You're a terrific guy, Matt Higgins. Subtitle, Toss Plan B overboard and unleash your full potential. Congratulations on the book. And I look forward to following you around, my friend. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much. It's so great to spend time with you, by the way. I have even just looking at all these flashbacks from these different trips. We've had a lot of fun together. I mean, come on. And I remember texting you,

I remember texting you during your, you know, everything had happened. And I just was so impressed. by how you owned it, like in terms of crisis management, you know, setting aside whatever anyone's political view is like you owned it and you weathered it and you came right back and you'd never miss the beat. Salt Conference win on us scheduled. Yes. Can't take yourself that seriously as we both know. Right, right. Well, thank you, everybody. If you get a chance to read the book, please leave review. DM me if it's affected your life in any kind of way. Lastly, the whole book is premised on a study from 2014 at a warden that demonstrated that if you just think about plan, your backup plan,

it'll make you much less likely to ever achieve your true purpose, but it'll also make you care a lot less. So the book will take you through the history, psychology, science, and case studies to prove that point to you. And it'll help you manage your fear, your risk, and your anxiety. So you can kind of finally, finally go all in on what you want. All right. God bless. Well said, Matt. Well, I love Burn the Boats. And I am giving that out as one of my graduation gifts to students, high school students, college students, et cetera, people getting their career started. would be well suited to learn about Matt's career. There are so many different things that I love about Matt,

but the number one thing is his honesty, his authenticity, and his kindness and his pathos in terms of understanding other human beings. I really do wish the editors of Burn the Boats allowed him to go into some of the psychological issues that he had growing up, some of the traumatic experiences that he had, because believe it or not, they do equate to business.

A good business story is, about the rise of somebody, the creativity, the setbacks and the adjustment. I do not know a business mogul, a successful business mogul that has not had a series of setbacks that they had to work their way through. And so listening to Matt's origin story is incredibly uplifting to me because it shows you that you can do anything, go anywhere, as long as you have a burn the boat's mentality. So I'm going to be successful no matter what, and I'm not going to let anybody or anything stop me. And when you think about having a plan B, psychologically, it probably sets you up for going in that direction. So stick with Plan A, read Matt's book, Burn the Boats, and be honest with yourself in all things.

You'll have a great and successful life. So I had a guy on my show on today's open book that he grew up in Queens. He didn't have a father. the father basically abandoned them, but he made it. He made it big. He's a big believer in just never giving up under any circumstances. So what do you say to that, Ma? You know a lot of people that have been in a similar situation, right?

Well, I have people in my immediate family who was not blood related to me, who gave up five children. And I think that you've got to be nuts to do that. and some of the children are put together, and some of them aren't because they're very hurt, especially when a mother leaves. Okay, now I realize that, but what do you think happens to a kid when one of the parents abandons them? Well, I have proof right in the family that they're very intimidated by the world. Honestly, I think a mother leads the children and the father works.

You know, I'm old-fashioned. I think the father works, and the mother raises the children. So let me ask you this, Ma. When somebody that comes from a background like that is ultimately successful, where do you think that that's coming from? There's someone instrumental in that person's life that loved them and showed them the way. Right. So the mother was definitely... And Penny Bun is a perfect example.

Kenny Bun came for a little bit of a dysfunctional family. Right. And my brother now told him, don't look at yourself that you're not like us because you're just as good as us. And if you concentrate on your life, you'll become something. And today he is president of this sewer system. Right. Right. Now, Kenny Bunn is a very good example of a guy that came from nothing and he hung in there.

But I guess what I'm asking you... I do credit my brother because I remember he had... Right. No, Uncle Sal used to yell at him. Uncle Sal used to mentor him. Yep. Yes. And I think when you have a mentor of some sort, you know,

If somebody takes you on, you will succeed for sure. Good insight, actually. You're on, you're floundering, especially when your mother leaves you. It's a good insight, actually. So you're basically saying a person can be successful, they usually have a mentor or somebody that picks up the substitution almost of where the parent was and pushes the kid and yells at the kid, right? Yeah, look at how well, Earl's doing, you know?

Yeah, and it's because of you. You mentor him, and he became a, a, good human being in many ways. Yeah. Many ways. No, he's a great. He's a great kid. And I have people in my family.

His mother left them. And they find her because mother holds that family together. And a father has to work. And they work hard to feed their children and close their children double time because there's no mother. So they're not really in their life the way they should be. Okay. Could be.

Could be, I should say. All right. All right. It's a pretty good insight, Ma. What about Shark Tank? You like Shark Tank, Ma, or not really? No. Tell me why not?

Because I kept the father of watching it. Okay, because she's not business-oriented, right? Not really, no. No. All right. I like to do makeup. All right, but if there was a makeup business on there, you'd probably be interested, right? I would love it, yeah.

I read the book, simply oils, because oils are very good beers again. Right. trained at the Bank of Center by David Steppen, and he was very wicked and very artsy, and he was gay, and I never looked at people like they're not right. They're human beings, and it's good in every kind. I agree with you, Ma. We don't judge anybody by any skin color, sexual orientation, or anything. We have, well, you taught me that.

I appreciate that. My best friend who had a fellow was gay, and I worked with gay. in the makeup field, and he was a very kind, a very, very nice person. My mother died young. He came to my house at midnight to do my hair, which was a shock because he said I looked like hell, and I was in a total shock that my mother cared so young. He was a real friend, and that shows you that everyone has good at certain things. We're people, too, but I'm misunderstanding.

image. If you're very successful, you have hate people and love people. Right. Because some people can't help hating the person because they would like to be where the person is. My son's very good to me. He does everything for me. And one of my so-called friends who was a little bit of a quack said to they wouldn't even learn how to do your lawn by a lawnmower. I tell like that to you. I don't have I don't have to do that. I have a very super type of trial that came from me that takes over. All right, Ma, you don't have to worry, Ma. He's very unselfish.

You don't have to do your own lawn, Ma. Don't worry, I got you covered. All right, Ma, I love you. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was Open Book. Thank you for listening. If you like what you hear, tell your friends, and make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. While you're there, please leave us a rating or review.

If you want to connect with me or chat more about the discussions, it's at Scaramucci on Twitter or Instagram. You can also text me at plus 1, 917, 909-29-996. I'd love to hear from you. I'll see you back here next week.