Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - Secrets of JFK’s Assassination with Brad Meltzer

Episode Date: January 15, 2025

This week, Anthony sits down with bestselling author Brad Meltzer to discuss his brand-new book, The JFK Conspiracy, which sheds light on a little-known plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Brad shares intimate stories from his career as a writer, insights into his interactions with U.S. presidents, and a deep dive into the intricate role Jacqueline Kennedy played during JFK's presidency. The conversation explores compelling theories about JFK’s assassination, and the evolving nature of threats faced by American presidents. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is OpenBee. book where I talk with some of the brightest minds out there about everything surrounding the written word from authors and historians to figures and entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe, wherever you get your podcast, and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the parts you're enjoying or how we can do better. You know,

I can roll with the punches, so let me know. Anyways, let's get to it. Today, we're diving into history, leadership and untold stories with the great Brad Meltzer. Brad's new book, The JFK Conspiracy, Uncovers a little-known plot by Richard Pavlik to assassinate JFK, a chilling event that has been buried by history until now. Brad explores the role Jackie Kennedy played in crafting JFK's legacy, offers fresh. perspectives on the nature of the presidential threats reflects on his own connections with several former U.S. presidents and so much more. Let's get into it.

Joining us now on Open Book is Brad Meltzer. He's a number one New York time bestselling author, so many different great books, but the latest book, the JFK conspiracy, the secret plot to kill Kennedy, and the greatest tagline ever, and why it failed. Of course, we know Kennedy is killed by an assassin's bullet, but this is a totally different plot. And first of all, it's an honor to have you on. So thank you for joining us. But before we get into it, tell us about Brad Meltzer. How did you become a writer? Why did you become a writer? Yeah, I first of all, and thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And we were talking off air how much I appreciate from Muhammad Ali to Superman, all our same heroes. But I started, you know, I was the first in my immediate family

to go to a four-year college. I never thought I'd be a writer. And when I graduated, college, a job I went to work out, work at just didn't pan out. The guy who was running and wound up leaving the job, he was going to be my mentor and I thought I wrecked my life. So I did what everyone would do. Anthony, what I know you would do in a moment where you think you wrecked your life, I said, I'm going to write a novel. And I didn't know what I was doing, but I just thought everyone has one story in them. So I wrote my first novel. My first novel got me 24 rejection letters. There were only 20 publishers at the time and I got 24 rejection letters, which means some people were writing me twice to make sure I got the point.

But I fell in love with the process. And I said, if they don't like that book, I'm going to write another. And if they don't like that book, I'm writing another. And the week after I got my 23rd and 24th rejection letter, I started my second book. And that was the one that sold. And so I'll be the first. I got lucky. You got some big fans, though.

You got some presidents that are fans, right? I mean, I think, if I remember correctly, you got George Herbert Walker Bush. Bush won as a big fan of yours. You've spoken at his library. I think he handed you the secret letter that he left for Bill Clinton. Did. Am I right about all this or did I get this? Yeah, he did. He gave it to me. You know, in fact, so yeah, Bush 41, 43, I know well, Clinton himself, listen, I'm so thankful I've gotten to, you know, I've met every president since 41 up. But 41 and I had a really amazing relationship. In fact, but I couldn't even tell this story until a few years ago. But when he was, when he was dying, what no one knew and we couldn't say at the time was they were bringing his favorite writers to come in and read to him. on basically his deathbed. And I got the call.

And I was in Kennebunk, Port Maine. I went down there to the compound and my wife and I are there. Secret Service say to me, listen, Brad, he's sleeping a lot right now. He's going to fall asleep five minutes in because he's sleeping most of the day at this point. So just read to him for five minutes, ten minutes, and say goodbye. I said, you've got it honored to be here. Secret Service leave. It's just myself, my wife, President Bush, and his service dog, Sully.

And I can see he has a stack of books on his desk. And one of them is my book, the first conspirators. Jersey, a nonfiction book about a secret plot to kill George Washington. And he and President Clinton have both given me really beautiful blurbs. I know they had early copies of it. But this one looks like it's been read. I can't tell you how many times. It's dog-eared. And I say, sir, you want to read this one? He goes, mm-hmm, because he can't speak anymore. He just says, mm-hmm, or uh-uh. And sure enough, I start reading. And five minutes and he falls asleep. And I'm like, I'm just going to finish this chapter. And the chapter I brought to read him was the moment where George Washington

for the very first time has the Declaration of Independence read to his troops for the first time. And so I get to those words, Anthony, those words we all know. We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal. And in that moment, President pushes eyes pop open. And he's just locked on me, wide awake. And I get to the end of the chapter. I'm like, you want to read another chapter, sir? He goes, mm-hmm. I get to you into that one. You want to read another, sir? Mm-hmm. And instead of being there for five or ten minutes, I'm there for an hour, I say goodbye to him. I know I'm never going to see him again. And, you know, it was one of the most humbly moment. moments of my life to read about the very first president who at that point who was the oldest

living president of these United States. So I still don't know how I've been lucky enough to kind of stumble into things like that. Well, I'm glad you told us. I did not know that story. I knew the story about your closest to the president. And I'm honored that you told that story on my podcast. Thank you. I want to go to an abrupt transition, though. So somebody that's a little bit more sinister. Bush won. I've had the chance to meet with them. Of course, I work for Bush do. and I thought he was one of the greatest living Americans, so many different ways, World War II decorated and so forth. And it was sad when he passed. Richard Pavlik.

Who is Richard Pavlik? And why is he overlooked by history other than by Brad Meltzer, frankly? I did not know until I opened your book and started it. I didn't know who he was. Yeah, it's a crazy story, right? So this is the book I wrote, the new nonfiction book called The JFK Conspiracy about a secret plot to kill Kennedy that really. happened at the start of his presidency. We all know the one from Lee Harvey Oswald that eventually kills him, but there was a plot in 1960 just after Kennedy's elected in December. He goes down

this assassin named Richard Pavlik as a disgruntled postal worker, and he puts seven sticks of dynamite in his car. He goes to and follows Kennedy to Palm Beach, Florida, because he thinks that Kennedy's secret service protection is less there, which he's right about. And he knows every day, every Sunday that Kennedy goes to a 10 a.m. church service. And so he sits outside his place right before 10 a.m. Sure enough, JFK is right on time. JFK comes out to his car. All Pavlik has to do, this assassin has to do, is hit the gas on the car, hit the little trigger mechanism he's built. And truly, Anthony, boom, will go to the dynamite. And I won't ruin the ending. I think I just ruined chapter one of the JFK conspiracy, but that's chapter one. But what saves his

life in that moment, what saves JFK is one of the most crazy JFK stories you've never heard in your life. And all really happened. And the reason you don't know the story, because I was like, how does no one know this story? It was a huge story in Florida where it happened. It was about to go nationwide. And the day was going to go nationwide, there were two airplanes that crashed over New York City. And when they crashed, everyone died on board, both planes, except for one boy. This one young boy is a sole survivor. And America becomes obsessed with this kid. And all the attention swerves to this kid. And so Richard Pavlik's story with JFK and trying to kill him, becomes a footnote to history until Josh mentioned I, my co-writer, decide to write the JFK

conspiracy. And then, obviously, we started telling the full story about it. It's interesting. You know, Farah Fawcett died on the same day as Michael Jackson. And of course, we remember her fondly, but her death was eclipsed by his. And this stuff happens. It's right. It's right. It's a media big foot, as we say, right? But, uh, that's it. Talk about the first lady for a second, because you guys write beautifully about the first lady, you and Josh, take us through her influence. What surprised you most about Jacqueline Bouvier, a fellow Long Islander of mine,

Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy. Yeah, she is. So here's the thing is we've turned the Kennedys. We know them as like the perfect husband, the perfect wife, the perfect hair, the perfect teeth. She's got perfect style and they got the compounds. And it's a cliche. We turn them into a cliche.

and they're far more complex than that. And what stole the show, and when we were writing the JFK conspiracy, what stole the show was Jackie Kennedy. And I didn't know much about her. Again, I just knew her as like the, you know, the most beautiful first lady who has the, redos the White House

and just has all the charm and everyone loves her. And she's so amazing. And what, because you see what she has to go through. Because JFK, you know, we start the book with his World War II heroics. He's this amazing war hero. You know, he hits a PT 109, a Japanese destroyer, like blows his,

his boat to bits, and he puts a unconscious one, a member of his, you know, one of the other sailors on his back, swims for miles with this unconscious guy in his back. And JFK's awesome, amazing hero. In fact, when he gets his honors and gets honored as a hero, he can leave World War II. And his father's like, you're done, son, let's take it home. You won, you survive, let's go. And JFK's like, no, I'm not done. I'm not taking, I'm not at my dad making an excuse for me. I'm going to go and actually fight and do more good. And so you're like, this guy's the greatest guy in the world. And then he marries Jackie. And when they're engaged, one of JFK's close friends goes up to Jackie and says, you know, Jack likes women, loves, and basically says to Jackie's face, he's going to

sleep around on you. And I won't ruin it. You'll see all the affairs that we talk about in the book. But Jackie has to deal with this guy who, you know, is JFK the greatest, you know, amazing war hero who who gives us idealism and takes us to the moon? Or is he this terribly reckless husband who, when she, you know, she gives birth, he's not there. She hemorrhages, he's not there. She's dealing with the christening and all the stuff by herself, has to go to the White House by herself. Is he good? Is he bad? Is he a little bit like all of us, you know, a little bit of both? And Jackie is the one who just struck me as she's the one holding the ship together. Man, it's beautifully written. And also, she's, she also protects him. You know, honestly, she protects some of the philandery by

presenting herself and her family as something that they're not, which is, uh, You know, not only that. No, you're exactly right. In fact, the greatest thing she does to protect him is, you know, we start the book, obviously, and the whole book is about the secret plot to kill JFK that you've never heard of. But we end the book with the real actual assassination of JFK. You get to see it, but you see it from Jackie's perspective. Was that a lone gumman that killed JFK? Depends who you want to talk to. Let's talk about that in the next question, because we should talk about that. So we do the whole ending. We do the whole finale of you see it from Jackie's perspective. And I kept when I was researching the book, I'm like, where's, where's Camelot?

When does Camelot enter the picture here? Everyone associates Camelot with JFK and the Kennedy administration. And what I finally realized and figured out is it doesn't enter while he's alive. It's after he dies. When his brains get splattered all over, his wife's beautiful purple, it's a disaster obviously, you know, affects the whole country. And everyone wants an interview with Jackie. And she's not granted an interview with anyone.

And she finally says to Life Magazine, I'll give you one interview for their special JFK death issue. And this reporter comes to a house late at night. Reporter shows up at like 8 o'clock is there until after midnight. She's rewriting the reporting with him. And she tells a story, exclusive story to him, that when JFK was in pain, when his back was bothering him, he would sit up in the White House. And when he couldn't fall asleep, Jackie was the one who would go and put this record on.

The one record that she knew brought him piece, this song, this play about a place called Kamelot. And Jackie, at the start of her career, was a reporter. She used to ask questions on the street. So she was a member of the press. She was hounded by the press. She was mortified by the press. She was chased by the press. But make no mistake, Anthony, she was a master of the press.

And she's the one who inserts the word Kamelot into the lexicon. And that's why we think about it today. It is a conscious choice by her to rewrite immediately the legacy and make sure that legacy is the way she wants it rather than anyone else having to say in it. And it's incredible what she does. In communities across Canada, hourly Amazon employees earn an average of over $24.50 an hour. Employees also have the opportunity to grow their skills and their paycheck by enrolling in free skills training programs for in-demand field. like software development and information technology. Learn more at aboutamazon.ca.

Don't miss the devil wears product too in theaters. Merrill Street, Anne Hathaway, Emily Blunt, and Stanley Tucci are back. In light of the recent scandal, I'm here to restore your credibility. I did not hire you, and all I need to do is find my time until you fail. On May 1st, icons. I'm going to make something of this job. Rain. Be the bridges I burn.

Night to my way. Forever. I just love my job. Get tickets now. The Devil Wears Prada 2 in theaters May 1st, directed by David Frankel. This is the very famous writer, Theodore White, who wrote the book The Making of the President in 1960. He interviews Mrs. Kennedy after the assassination. She falls into the arms of Aristotle Onassis a couple of years later because she's looking for protection. She's looking for help because of the limelight that she's in and the threats to her family.

It's quite a compelling story. Was he killed by Harvey Oswald? Yeah, so let's talk about that. So here's my take. So, you know, I know the guy who's read every single page that's been released from the archives. I sit on the board of the National Archives. I'm proud to say. And, you know, it is amazing to look at it. And the sad truth is, anyone who tells you what happened doesn't know because Jack Ruby pulled the trigger on Lee Harvey Oswald. And the moment Jack Ruby did that, he denied us the answer, you know, and there's a, there's a lot of misinformation out there. I remember I was obsessed with the case because people would tell me, I saw on the JFK, movie, Oliver Stone's movie. It'd say, no one since that day, they've tried to recreate Lee Harvey Aldewald's shot from the book The Posthory. No one do you know has been able to recreate it. And I was like, oh my gosh, no one can create that shot. It must have been someone else. It's a one to a million shot, except that's not true. That shot's been recreated dozens of times by Marines. In fact, good Marine sharpshooters have to shoot from that distance regularly. And why did Oliver

Stone do that? He said, he purposely put misinformation in his movie about JFK to offset the misinformation that he used to see in the Warren Commission. So my answer is, don't get your history from Hollywood movies. As for what I think killed JFK, you want to hear my theory? So if you look in the 60s who we thought killed JFK, it was the height of the Cold War. So our great enemies at the time, it must have been the Russians, it must have been the Cubans. If you look in the 70s as Watergate breaks, mistrust for the government reaches all-time highs because of Richard Nixon. Guess who we start blaming the Kennedy assassination on? We say it's an inside. job. The government did it themselves. The CIA did it. LBJ. did it. In the 80s, the Godfather

movies peak. Guess who killed JFK? It was the mob. So decade by decade, if you want to know who killed JFK, it's whoever America is most afraid of at that moment in time. And JFK has always been that to us. It's always been a mirror, as all conspiracies are, that show us what we're most afraid of. So I know Lee Harvey Oswald took that shot. Do I know whether he was funded or what he was doing in Russia all those years before during the Cold War, those answers are lost to us. and the ones I'm still chasing. But you think he shot him? I know he shot.

Oh, he shot him. No, he definitely shot him. The only question is he's being funded by someone else, he put up to him. But Lee Harvey Oswald took that shot. So when you look at the Zappa film and the shot looks like it's coming this way, you think it came in this way?

I mean, you know, when I talk to the Secret Service about it and anyone who knows about ballistics, when a bullet hit into your body, it's magic. It really is. Same thing with knives, knife wounds. Like, why does some person get stabbed and it hits all their organs? And another guy gets stabbed in the same thing. exact spot, it's nothing. So, you know, trying to look at the end result as opposed to where anyone

else was or where's the footage. And the one thing I know for sure, this is the one thing I know for sure. People can't keep secrets. They can't keep their mouth shut. Deep Throat, the greatest secret living, walking around, right? The guy who ratted out, Richard Nixon, who spoke to Woodward and Bernstein, they were going to take that secret to their grave and no one can tell them until Deep Throat is dead. You can't say a word to anyone, Ben Bradley at the watch post. No one will say anything. and guess who let it out? Deep throat himself, Mark felt, because he was like, I'm going to die, and I'm about to die, and I don't want to go to my deathbed with this secret. And all these years, all this time, you're telling me everyone kept this secret? That's the thing. That's the hardest part

about it. So are we going to get the answer? Not from files, not from anything else. And sadly, when Learv. Oswald went down, so many answers went with him. But I will tell you this. Here's the one thing that is important. And we should discuss this when I was researching the JFK conspiracy. I spoke to, and even before that, I spoke to the Secret Service about people who kill the president. And they're actually divided into two groups. And I looked at them. They study them. They don't just like take it one by one. They've studied what this kind of person is. You're a mind reader because I was getting to howlers and hunters. Yeah, let's talk about it. Let's talk about howlers and hunters. You're a mind reader. And that's what they divide them into.

The Secret Service says there are two types of people who try to kill the president. There's howlers and there's hunters. And a howler makes a lot of knowledge. always, says, I'm going to kill that guy, hate that guy, I'm going after him. They're big mouths. But they rarely are the ones who take action. But a hunter is very different. And a hunter is someone who doesn't say a single word. The hunter doesn't say a word to anybody. They're the ones who tend to pull the trigger. And if you look through history, if you look from Abraham Lincoln to the four men who have successfully killed a president, from Abraham Lincoln to JFK, all four of them are hunters. And, you know, when you see, you know, one of the things we talk

about in the book is it's just how much venom. And I know it's titillating for me to come on here and say, hey, let's talk about a secret plot we found to kill JFK, no one knows about. But the reason we write this book is not just to tell you the old story, but why does it matter today? And when you look at the 1960 election, it's a time when America, you know, we're bitterly divided between, you know, if you're Kennedy person or you're a Nixon person, it's the closest election in modern history at the time. whatever side you're on you think the other side are horrible, awful people. Does that sound familiar to Anthony, right? I mean, it's just exactly where we are now.

And when you drudge up that much venom, when you drudge up that much hatred, you can't be surprised when someone gets activated. And in JFK's case, it's this guy Richard Pavlik who gets activated and says, you know what, I got to go after this guy. He's a threat to our country. He's a threat. And we've got to take them out. And it's no surprise to me what you see, what you're seeing with President Trump,

the fact that we've seen these two attempts. it's the same thing. It's that same person who thinks that they have to, quote, unquote, save the country. And I sadly, whoever was elected, I sadly think you were going to see even more of them. It's just where we are as a culture. It's a terrible part of our culture right now. So you met President Trump as well. Of course. Yeah, my wife, yeah, I know my wife worked for his sister. Okay. And there was an interesting dialogue today with President Trump and Barack Obama, President Obama. I saw that. So it's interesting, right? These guys can go after each other politically, but at the end of the day, there's a common bond that they're all in a very exclusive club. React to that. Yeah, you know, when I did a book years ago on what it's like to be an ex-president. I was obsessed with it because I got a letter one day that. I got a letter one day from President Bush. I got another one from President Clinton telling me they like my books. And I was like, are these, you know, President Bush, who I respect so much, I'm like, is he so bored that he's

just writing to me? What's he doing with this time? You know, and I was thinking like, you're the most strongest, powerful man on the entire planet one day, and the next day you're going to stop red lights like the rest of us. And that plays with your head. It gets in your head. And I said to President Bush, can I come see what your life is like? And I said the same thing to President Clinton, when he left the office. I said, can I see what your life is like? And when you go to President Clinton's office, you know, every president has like their, their wall of things, right? We all have our walls behind us of the things that are meaningful to me, whether it's Muhammad Ali or Superman or lightsabers or comic books, whatever it is. And do you know the one

picture that is in more of their offices than anything else? They'll have a picture of their kids and whatever, but they don't need to impress anybody anymore. All five of the presidents together. That's the only picture. That's the picture that's in Clinton's office is the five of them, when they were together, it's still the ultimate club. And so it doesn't support. me today. We're talking, of course, right after Jimmy Carter's funeral, that you see there's only a couple people on this planet who understand what you went through. And I remember at the time, you know, President Bush gave me the secret letter that he wrote for President Clinton. And he gave it to me. No one had ever seen it. Never even gave it to his biographer. His biographer was joking

with me. He's like, why do you give it to you? Why don't give it to me? But whatever you, and he should have written, I hate you, Clinton, you know, you beat me my election, you turned me into this one-term president. You did all these things. And instead, he, he, He just wrote the most generous, kind, nice, amazing letters saying, in our country, we're rooting for you. Barbara and I are rooting for you. And, you know, we're all together now. And that's where, let's be honest. That's what we should be as a culture. We should not be politicizing everything. It does no good. And to me, great leaders are not the ones who pull us apart. They're the ones who pull us together. That's how it's always got to be. And so I hope, I hope that rubs off what happened today.

Listen, you know, he won the election. God bless him. I have my issues with him, which I have well. I do too, of course, of course. They have well articulated. He won the election. I want him to do well. Sure. I know I only have a few precious moments with you. I've got five words that me and my team put together for these podcasts.

We gleaned them from your books and your personality. No, I like this. You respond to the five words. I say the word conspiracy. You think what? Mirror of your fear. Okay. I say Abraham Lincoln.

You think what? The best. Number one. Because? Because he's the only one. Washington is a great president who, of course, I think is one of the greatest, and there are others who step up. But I think what Lincoln does is he does something that is not in his interests. That's the hardest thing of all.

When it's all going the pot, and I've written many books about many presidents, Abraham Lincoln is the only one. I've written, I think, three books about that I still have more information I can still write about. Because not just in office, but in life, he's just a kind person. And that's why, you know, I have my beef with presidents who are right in in all caps in triple exclamation points. Like, I'm tired of a culture that's writing in triple exclamation points. Remember when humility used to be of great American value? I thought, I mean, the GI. We lost it. We lost it. But we need to get it back, right?

We're talking about the war heroism of Bush and Kennedy, my uncle, Anthony, I'm named after it was on Normandy Beach. Never talked about it. Right. Never had to say, look what I did, me, me, me. And to me, Lincoln was that guy. who perfect. And listen, is he perfect? Of course, not no one's perfect. But he's to me, if you said, who's the best president, Abraham Lincoln wins. Do you know, do you know the origin of April Fool's? You know, it's my birthday. I do. That's why I'm bringing it up. Do you know the origin? I used to know it. I've actually forgotten. When you say it, I'm going to go, yeah, that's right.

And they changed the calendar. They changed the calendar. Okay. Because the months are named differently, right? That's the month that they put in. Yes. And the Gregorians changed the calendar. Right, right. That's why the months don't match up with the actual things. Exactly. And so there's a group of people that were celebrating the turn of the year on April 1st because it was more consistent with what the old calendar was. And so the monks said, well, you're celebrating the, you know, happy new year. The new year on April 1st, you're a fool. It's April Fool's Day. We're going with January 1st. That's right. You're a good areas. You're obviously a fire sign. Okay, let's keep going. George Washington.

I mean, he's the president that is the most famous that we know the least about. And he's fascinating. I've written books about him too. He's savvy. I mean, he walks in to the Continental Congress for the first time. And he's the only guy that shows up in a military uniform. He is not stupid. He knows there's going to be a vote that day.

And when they're looking for a leader, hey, maybe it should be that guy who's taller than everyone else I'm wearing the best clothes. and that is some savvy stuff. But here's my favorite Washington story. Is George Washington. This is why I love him. We all tell the story that George Washington is the best president, that we held hands, and we thought about democracy, and we beat the British, the greatest fighting force at that point in time. And that's a nice story, but it's not a true story.

In truth, George Washington, in the beginning of the war, we got our butts kicked. He didn't have the experience that the British generals had. And so he gets pinned back to the East River in one of the earliest battles. And it's the moment where George Washington should die. He's got the East River behind them and the British in front of him. He's done. It should be over. And what he does instead is the thing that great leaders should always do, which is improvise.

And in the middle of the night, as this fog rolls in, they start commandeering every boat that they can find along the East River. Big ones, small ones. And he starts putting all of his men aboard. And he won't get on board until all of his men get aboard. And not just the big important ones, but the lowest ranking ones. And not that this is the moment that saved America. There are plenty before and plenty after. But to me, leadership is not about being in charge.

It's about taking care of those in your charge. And that's what George Washington does best. Yeah, and good leaders eat last, right? We know that from the military. Simon Sinek, that's my buddy. Yep. He's don't want to say it to me. I just was texting with him.

Jackie Kennedy. Oh, man. You're picking all the savvy ones. Jackie Kennedy is, I was going to say savvy again, but I use that word, but is, is she is a mastermind. That's the word I'll go back with for the reason we spoke about for the way that she put Camelot in there and held this ship together as the waves were going and the lightning's coming down and she's hemorrhaging and she's and this woman is holding this all together with a grace

unbeknownst to anyone. JFK complicated, baby. He is complicated. I mean, it's funny. We did the first conspiracy about the place. thought to kill George Washington. We did the Lincoln one about the plot to kill Lincoln, the Nazi conspiracy of plot to kill FDR, Stalin, and Churchill. But this was the one with the hardest ending. Because you don't have to deal with Lincoln's death to understand Lincoln,

but you can't see JFK without understanding JFK. And so I, Josh wrote a version, and I was like, that's not the right ending. I wrote a version is like, that's not a right. And we kept going back and forth trying to pick it. And we finally, I won't ruin the ending, but like his, like his great inaugural address says, it is filled with hope. It's filled with coming together. but it's filled with that idea that we must begin. And that's what he starts for us. He starts our starting point of that American dream. And I think to this day for JFK, you know, for some people, he's the birth of that celebrity

president. He's the guy who gives us that American dream that's different than previous American dreams, but that American dream that's like, I can attain it in the suburbs and it's mine. And for some Ronald Reagan stands for that, for some Barack Obama stands for that, for some Trump stands for that. But all of them are, are, none of them are doing what JFK did. It's an interesting job because there's not suit too much power in that job. This is the weird part of it.

No one made it look. No one made it look as good. Right. It's an interesting job, you know. Listen, I wish Trump well. What's next for you, Brad, before I let you go? So we do, um, I have my line of kids books. We do JFK conspiracies out now.

Uh, in our kids books line, we do an I am Sally Ride and we are the Beatles comes next. And then in March, I did the commencement address at the, University of Michigan for my son's graduation last year. And it was about making magic and this inspirational book of things you need to make magic in life. And they're doing a book version of that from the parts that went viral. And that comes out in March. So we're doing three books in three months. And then, Anthony, buddy, I need a nap. Well, take a good long nap. You deserve it. Okay. The title of the book is the J.F.K. Conspiracy, the secret plot to kill Kennedy and why it failed. It's from Brad Meltzer,

who's a bestselling author and a great storyteller and a phenomenal guy. And I really appreciate you joining us today on open book. No, appreciate you, man. Appreciate you very much. What an incredible interview with Brad. He's been a good friend of mine for many years and one of my favorite authors. He has got tremendous versatility. He's a polymath.

He knows a lot about fiction, nonfiction, memorabilia, physics. I mean, it's just an incredible gift that he has and he's a brilliant writer. But these conspiracy books, the Nazi conspiracy to assassinate Winston Churchill and FDR, the JFK conspiracy, and the Lincoln conspiracy, he's written several of these books. He's drawing on information from history to give you a turn on history, but he's also explaining the history that you may or may not know. And it's such an enjoyable thing. Reads like a thriller, like a fictional thriller. and I just can't recommend his books more highly. I just downloaded, by the way, the book of lies,

which Brad wrote in 2008. One of the things that I missed, I didn't meet Brad until about 2011, but I'm back reading that book as well. Just a phenomenal guy. I really enjoyed having them on, and we'll get him back. All right, you're ready to come on the podcast,

or as you say, the cash podcast? Are you ready? I'm here. All right, Ma. All right, let's test your memory, Ma. I had on my show, I had an author on that talked about a assassination threat that Kennedy had before he even went into the office of the presidency. I didn't know about it and it was fun to read about it. But let me ask you this.

Where were you? Do you remember where you were when JFK was shot in November of 1963? Do you remember? You were also pregnant with your favorite child. That would be me, of course. I was pregnant. Well, the other two know that I'm the favor, Ma. It's okay at this point.

Stop that. It's helpful. You know, 61 years of data. They know, ma'am. They know the packing order. Okay, all right, but go ahead. Go ahead. Where were you, ma'am?

A boy who was very cute and another one on its way, and I was very excited, and I stayed in a lot because I wanted everything to be perfect for my babies. Okay. And so you were watching the news, and then that's when you found out. You were home watching the news. Yeah. Okay. Watching the news.

And what was... It was a terrible thing the way he did it now. It was awful. What was the country like at that time? Overwhelming, too. I actually don't think Trump is... Okay, tell me why. Okay.

You have to really pick it up. Right. So, I mean, but that type of near-death experience could have had a big impact on his personality, right? Unfortunately, it didn't hit his brain. It just necked his ear. Mm-hmm. And that's it. Okay.

What did you think of Jackie Kennedy, Ma? Didn't you tell me why? that you had the opportunity to meet her? I saw her in Gucci's store in New York. On Fifth Avenue. He had a beautiful gray cashmere, and she was like very subtle and very, very sweet. I was looking at her because I knew it was her. And I thought she was a very nice person, very, very nice.

She had a regalness to work. She was remarried at that time? She was a widow at that time or remarried? She was a widow, a widow. Okay, so that was before she got remarried, Aristotle onassis. Yes, definitely. But totally thrown at you was that sweet.

She said, are you shopping today? She says, it looks like you are. What are you buying? I said, I'm not sure yet, but I'm definitely buying something because I was always crazy. I always wanted the best. I still do. Yes, we know, Ma.

We know from your Hermes scarf collection. We do know that you're, we do know, You know you're buying, Ma. I've shut off my American Express notifications due to your buying. Yeah, very good. Okay, Mom. Okay, Mom. Okay, Ma.

Okay, Ma. Okay, Ma. It buys my toilet paper. All right, love it. All right, love you, ma. Love you very much. All right, see you. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was Open Book.

Thank you for listening. If you like what you hear, tell your friends, and make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. While you're there, please leave us rating or review. If you want to connect with me or chat more about the discussions, it's at Scaramucci on Twitter or Instagram. I'd love to hear from you. I'll see you back here next week.