Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - The Anthropologist Predicting Society's Collapse - Jitske Kramer

Episode Date: April 9, 2026

My guest today is Jitske Kramer — corporate anthropologist, bestselling author, and one of the most original thinkers I've had on this show. We're getting into tricksters, liminality, and why the messy middle of change is exactly where we need to be having the conversations most people are too scared to have. The book is Tricky Times, and trust me — you need to read it. Jitske Kramer is a corporate anthropologist, bestselling author, and founder of HumanDimensions who travels the world learning from healers, leaders, and innovators to bring those insights back to the world of leadership and collaboration. She is the author of Deep Democracy, Jam Cultures, and The Corporate Tribe (2016 Management Book of the Year), among others. Through keynotes and masterclasses, she challenges organizations to make the unfamiliar feel natural — and the familiar feel brand new. Get a copy of her wonderful and underrated book Tricky Times: Navigating The Messy Middle of Change here: https://amzn.to/48jdK1L Anthony Scaramucci is the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge, a global alternative investment firm, and founder and chairman of SALT, a global thought leadership forum and venture studio. Pre-order my next book, All the Wrong Moves: How Three Catastrophic Decisions Led to the Rise of Trump, out on the 17th of September in the UK and the 22nd of September in the US: https://linktr.ee/anthonyscaramucci⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And when we feel that chaos, we want to find a way. And because it's very tough, and we have to talk with others to find the way. And because they have different views than I have, I get upset, and we bad at talking. So we call out for a strong leader. And that's a very human thing to do. And then the question is, what are the so-called strong leaders do and what is the narrative they push? I think it's unfortunate that at this moment there are global forces say empathy is a sin caused by women and democracy is a bad system. That's not the narrative I want to live.

The question is, what do we do? So in this liminal times, we need to understand that we people, we shape our world. And as an anthropologist, I can say, there's two main processes, only two main processes, how people shape those cultures. And that's through interaction and through decision-making.

Welcome to Open Book. I am your host, Anthony Scaramucci. Joining us today is Jitsky Kramer. She's a corporate anthropologist and a speaker and an author. She has an amazing book, which I think is going to get universal appeal. The title of the book is Tricky Times, navigating the messy middle of change. Well, who hasn't gone through that in every aspect of their life, Jisky? So welcome to the show. before we dig into tricky times, could you give us a little bit of your background? And when someone calls themselves a corporate anthropologist, what does that mean? Well, I'm a social anthropologist by background. So I try to understand how people shape cultures and cultures shape people.

And we do that when we get together. Homo sapiens in families, in societies, in organizations, they start creating cultures. And I call myself a corporate anthropologist because I applied the knowledge and skills of anthropology into organizations, corporates. And you see the same type of dynamics. Okay. So, and this is a good segue because the book is super provocative.

You're observing global tensions. You're realizing that lots of things are going on culturally in terms of the turbulence of the culture. And so what made you want to write this book? I came across so many people in organizations saying things should be different. People talking about systemic change.

changes, feeling that the narrative was crumbling down, how we used to do business, lots of disruptions and not just in one field, but in many. And therefore, as an anthropologist, I look at that and think, well, that's what we call liminality, a liminal phase where the old no longer is and the new, not yet, you know, it has to be born. So we have to create new ways of doing so. And in that, there is chaos. So there is so much information and research done in that particular space.

which I wanted to unfold and share with people who didn't study anthropology. Something you write about that's called the trickster. This is an archetype. And man, I've gotten my ass kicked by a few tricksters, including Donald Trump, if I might add. So you try to explain to us who these people are. Basically, they're Pinocchioes. They could be CEOs. They could be political leaders.

Tell us a little bit about the trickster. impact that they've had on creating some of this turbulence. Yeah, a trickster is a archetype. So as in the book, I don't talk about people. It's the archetypical energy we need to create change. So to create change. I'll talk about the people, Jisky. You be nice and academic and you keep yourself out of it.

Okay, I'll focus on specific people. Okay, keep going. That's so good. So the archetypical energy is needed to disrupt, we need that. because, you know, we shape cultures the way we do, and there must be someone playing with the boundaries. So in every mythology, in every story, there will be tricks. Like the Pinocchioes and the Anansi and the Loki, and they're all great.

And they need to fight and battle with the leadership and the sitting powers. That's the idea. And the people listening to the stories, they need to make up their mind, do we like it or not, is it good or bad, right or wrong? And then they can shape new thoughts and create. the world differently. So a trickster is not good or bad in itself. A trickster energy is amoral. It's not on a moral spectrum. But we human beings, we are moral because we are of flesh and blood. And when we use the trickster toolbox, when we play with stories, when we create new,

well said, then it comes with responsibilities. And we all do tricky stuff and it's fun because you brush up your CV and your Instagram account. And that's all fine and you play a little bit with words. But when that is too far off of reality, it's really tricky. So we have this double bind that we need tricksters in order to create change. And we need leadership, not just leaders, but leadership of all of us to decide, is this right or wrong, true or false? What should we do?

We're to put boundaries on it. So tricksters play with boundaries and people are there to set boundaries. And of course, when we go through change, we need new boundaries, new playgrounds, but also new moral standards where we say, well, this is good and this is bad. So leaders should not be tricksters. They should be leaders working along with tricksters, but they should not be in the center of power. And I think that's where it went wrong.

Yeah, well, I mean, it's well said, and you're also drawing upon some traditional cultures worldwide, which I found to be fascinating. And so what's the most counterintuitive lesson from a non-Western society that Western leaders actually need to hear right now? I think what we many times forget in our very efficient, driven cultures, which are geared towards unlimited growth, which we have in many places. So our whole narrative is built on unlimited growth. We put the finance wording and system and thinking so much in the center of things. And therefore make sure that people are efficient and accountable. But we people, we are narrative beings. We are emotional.

We need space to think. We need connection. So in many places, especially in organizations, they have something like, oh yeah, let's make it human-centric. So put human in the middle and we do it for humans, but it needs to be financial, you know, beneficial. We tend to forget that we're people and we need connections and that we are a group of people and we believe in stories. But we also believe in stories which are absolutely not true. So we need to talk about that.

We have a whole system of give and take, which is reciprocity. So it should be in balance, otherwise people get mad. So I think we tend to forget our humanness or that we say we need AI to improve as human beings. But what are we then? And I think we need to go back to where we from. We need to touch home. Like we are people creating this world together. And cultures don't fall from the sky.

So we create them together. So we should be aware of how that dynamic works. No, this is a brilliant book. I mean, it really left a mark on me because I read the fourth turning years ago. Neil Howell wrote a book about how you have this generational change, which creates this messiness as people forget the system. You know, we're 80 years out from the Second World War and the creation of the UN. There's a lot of young people like, what do we need those post-World war institutions for anyway?

And the systemic rise of nationalism as we forget our unity. But I guess the thing that hit me the most is about this liminality that you discuss. Are we in a time of productive disorientation, which is good? Or are we an actual collapse, which I think would probably not be so good? Those are two vectors that are happening potentially. And I'm just wondering what your view is of it. Well, if we take one step back, then the question is, are our ways of doing things, are they shaken? And I think they are.

That means that we are liminal, that in many places our narrative is blocked. And we know that it will be chaos in power. So the book describes the different challenges or risks or dangers we have in liminal times. And that's chaos in power. Whether that's a good or a bad thing, time will tell. So the only thing we do know is that civilizations, they come and go, business models come and go. There is change. It might be for the better.

It might be for the worse. We don't know. The only thing we do know, as I say in the book, we're a little bit lost. We're culturally lost. And where you're lost in the woods, many people tend not to see it. So we, that's not. Let's just pretend we're not. And when we feel that chaos, we want to find.

the way. And because it's very tough and we have to talk with others to find the way and because they have different views than I have, I get upset and we bad at talking. So we call out for a strong leader. And that's a very human thing to do. So we call out for in organizations that would be a strong project manager who guides us through. And then we put our lives in the hand of that person and the same thing we see across the world. And then, and then the question is, what do the so-called strong leaders do and what is the narrative they push? I think it's unfortunate that at this moment there are global forces which say empathy is a sin caused by women and democracy is a bad system. That's not the narrative I want to live. So the

question is, what do we do? So in these liminal times, we need to understand, that we people, we shape our world. And as an anthropologist, I can say there's two main processes, only two main processes, how people shape those cultures. And that's through interaction and through decision-making. And that's in a way good news. So the only thing we have to do is to make sure that we have really, really good interaction processes,

where we listen to all voices, when we invite the different views, when we are very clear who different, interest groups to put at the fire, you could say, at the campfire when we have the discussions and be very clear as who's deciding what. Is it the one with the big mouth, with the most money, with the best algorithm, or is it something we decide because it's good for the group? And I think that's where our humanity is. It's sitting at campfires, having campfire conversations where I'm being willing to touch by what you say. I can create a new thought. We can it into practice and that's how we shape cultures.

And it's disruptive. There's tricks to set the fire and not telling the truth. Leaders who don't take decisions which are good for the whole community, but for their own, well, benefit. So then we are a bit lost. It makes me think of so many different things, but let me just, let me just center on something that when I closed your book, I thought of and I'd like to get your reaction. So when I close the book, I

I was like, you know, we're probably running to your point about needing a big leader or needing a big solution. We're probably in our current culture so focused on short-term gratification and the need to get to the solution in the hurry that we're not being reflective enough and we're not being patient enough with our own discomfort. So that's the vibe I got from the book. Is that the correct vibe? Is that the suggestion that you're making?

Yeah. Because true change and transformation. it goes hand in hand with being uncomfortable. So liminality and transformational processes, they're similar and not the same for an individual or a group or society. So if we think about our own transformations in our lives and we all been through them or going through them

where we find a new love and we have to say goodbye to the old one or when there is illnesses or there's birth or... Do you do that a lot, Jitsky? Do you say goodbye to the old loves very quickly? Do you do that a lot? No, I hate that. But I had to do it once in a while in my life. Yeah, well, me too.

And if you do that and maybe you recognize that, like you are in a long-term relationship and you realize it's not going that well, but you pretend it is, that you're kind of lost in a relationship. And at one moment, you decide to voice it. And at that very moment, you break with the old because you can't say, oh, no, no, joke was not there.

No, you voice it and it becomes the truth. And then you get to the point, okay, now what does that mean? And then you're liminal. Okay, what to do, shift houses. How do I, who am I, my identity? And if you're in your life as an individual, go through those kind of faces, not just like, let's say for your relationship, but then suddenly you also realize my work is not what I want from it.

I'm living in the city, but I want to go to the woods. So that's what we call a midlife crisis where many, many storylines fall apart and that is uncomfortable. And we want to rush through it. We want to ignore it. But we all know we go seek out a therapist or a good friend or a coach or in many cultures, the shaman or the magician. And they help us to make sense of what's going on. And you get new ideas and you decide, okay, this is where I make a change in my life.

and I recreate something and then suddenly, you know, things settle down again. Well, the same kind of transformation is going through societies, organizations, the world where we realize when we voice it, this is not how we want it. And if we do so, at board level in organizations, our business model sucks. We're not adding to the world. We're only taking things off the world. then we have this conversation and we need to find new ways to spend our money on, new procedures, and it feels very, very uncomfortable.

I bring it up because we've all been there, right? We've all had this in the corporate realm. We've had this in our platonic relationships with people or it could be a business partner or a friend where you realize, wait a minute, there's some negative energy here that I really don't want to associate myself with. I have found, I mean, I'll just share this with you. I find particularly in my industry because a lot of money is involved, if someone's worth more than you, they think they're better than you, which of course they're not. And then all of a sudden the relationship is no longer bilateral.

It's unilateral. You know, well, they won't return your call, but they expect you to jump when they're calling. You see what I mean? It's like that, for me, it's just too much of negative energy for that. So I've sort of cut those people out. It's been a better life. since I've done that. I guess what I'm getting at, which I loved about this book, is that even me just saying that to you, because I used to be a big time conflict avoider, I wouldn't

have done that 10 years ago. I wouldn't have done it 20 years ago. But now at 62, I'm like, I don't care, you know, bye. And so how do you get there faster, I guess, is the question. You know, because it, just if I'm being brutally honest with you, after I read your book, I'm like, Wow, I wish I had this book 25 years ago. I wish I had read this book and you had come and knocked on my forehead and say, hey, go in this direction. It'll be more positive energy for you. That's a good question.

I think, I think what, one of the things, and thank you for it. Thank you for also that has that effect, reading it, that the words I put on paper have that effect. No question. I'm going to give it a thing. I just hope my kids are probably not old enough to get it, but I'm going to hand the book to them, and I'm going to say, hey, pay attention. Read it.

Pay attention. I think I, you know, I do a lot of talks. So I'm a speaker as well. So I do a lot of talks on stages in different places. And mainly in the Netherlands. I'm based in the Netherlands. And once in a while I travel and do more international talks. What I notice is that we are all curious about it.

And some of us are trapped in a concept, a storyline, which we tend to see as a law of nature. And it's not. So driving everything, obsession with economic growth or money, if you have that, you're safe, that's a storyline. We decided to have that storyline, but we can have a different one as well. So making sure that we listen to each other and we take a moment to breathe. And the tricky thing is that one of the best ways to have people not think is to push them and make everything busy. So a trickster tactic is to make sure that people can't think and give them more things to do, do this, do that, FOMO, fear of missing out, sky is a limit, fake it till you make it, go, go, go, go, go.

and speed is important. And if we do that and we're tracked in life a little bit, some hand, you know, take drugs to make sure that you can keep going. And that's done a very, well, it's a business model again to feed the beast of the obsession of growth and we keep on going and we are overheated. So it's almost like breathe in, breathe out, sit there, listen and feel. But the feeling is, for some, is tough. I'm with you.

You know, you also talk about fearlessness and faith. Okay, so you just said it's tough. But when you have fearlessness and faith, tell us what that combination looks like in practice, whether it's for leaders or teams or even for an entire society. Well, I think faith in a way that there is hope, that there is some, where you want to go, you have a longing to go there, and to be strong to do so. If we go through liminal times in our personal lives or as societies, we need to be strong enough to have the true conversation. And I think that's one of the things which is lacking

at many places. We talk about the internet as a free speech zone. It's not. It's a battlefield of algorithms, it's power play to the max. It's not a free zone. It's not a free speech because not all voices are actually amplified. And that's a tough conversation. We have healthcare systems in many places which need sick people so they can make them better. That's a strange way to build a system on. So I think the courage we need is to have to the right conversations and then we're not all equal. So we think, yeah, we have all voices. But like you said, some voices are listened better to them as because they have more money or they speak the lingo better. Like I always, I'm always aware that I, that English is not my native tongue. Dutch is. I just learned it at school. I just learned

at school as a kid and then growing up in business and learn English. But for instance, I have nine books. A couple of them are translated, but it's very hard to push that message across to different places. So to listen to all voices and who is putting what effort in it and how can we listen to that, that's the courage we need and the faith we need to have in as human beings. I think that's the main. I think it's very well said.

Tell me something optimistic. Give me some hope. I'll give you hope. Yeah. Well, the thing is... You need hope, Jiski. Give me some hope. You need hope.

Well, the hope is us people and the hope is having these conversations and be, well, just be honest and frank. I think that's the easy bet. There's no, I am, you know, optimistic. But the world is in trouble. I mean, just open up the news. and you know. So there's, it's not like, yeah, la la, nothing is wrong. No, there's lots and lots of things going wrong.

There's people dying. There's political leaders taking turns, which at least are not mine. So yes, there is, in that respect, there is work to do. So to be realistic, we need to have really rich conversations. And that's the same where I do feel hope, because we know how to do this. We know how to have conversations. We need to grow the movement and to connect with people who have at least some hope for humanity and democracies and places where we have at least more fair systems.

And there's lots and lots of people like us and want to do that. So it's creating that movement, connection, knowing that it's an interaction and decision-making, Put some rituals in place because in liminality we get tired and it's chaotic, but make sure we keep meeting on each other and understand how we shape those sculptures. And step by step and decision by decision and word by word, we change them. But we need to amplify the good positive energies and less the negative ones. So be aware of who you retweet. Interesting. I think it's really well said.

So what I do for all of our authors is we go through the. the book, my producer and I, we come up with five words. I'm going to say the word or then I need your reaction. Okay. Okay. You ready? Yeah. So, you can just give me like a sentence, okay?

I say the word leadership. You think what? Leadership is in all of us and needs to be a combination of power and love. It's interesting because when I read the book, I think of service. You know, when you're a leader, you're in service, right? That's where the love comes from. I see the word culture. You say what?

It's us. We have cultures everywhere and we create them together. They don't fall from the sky. So therefore, together we decide what's right, what's wrong, true and false. And who can join and who cannot. So that better be good. Liminality. I say the word liminality.

It's the place which is magic. We can create new places, but we have to say goodbye to the old as well. So it's a magical in-between, but twixte and between phase where hope is there and anger is there and anxiety is there and is filled of chaos emotions and creativity. Okay. What if I say trickster? You say what? Don't make tricks as a leader. Okay.

I should have probably had this interview in 2015, maybe, Jessica. Maybe we would have been better off. Okay, I say the word change. Change is part of life. It's there always. If there's no change left, we die or we are stuck with this forever. But change can only be for the better if we have the right conversations and have all of humanity and all our communities in mind

and not just the ones who look like us or have the same interest as us. Well, you know, thank you for this really thoughtful interview, but also for this inspiring book. The title of the book is Tricky Times, navigating the messy middle of change. Jitsky Kramer, thank you so much for joining us on Open Book. Thank you very much for having me. When a country's productivity cycle is broken,

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