Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - The Chris Cuomo Of It All: Firing, Family and Future

Episode Date: February 15, 2023

In this episode, Anthony talks with award-winning journalist, Chris Cuomo. Chris talks about his own public firing, detailing the mental health struggles he faced, working through therapy, and how he learnt to accept what had happened as he was going to “kill everybody,” including himself. He discusses the move from being number one at CNN, to keeping perspective with his much smaller, “kind of embarrassing” NewsNation audience. Together, they get personal on family. Chris explains that his brother, Governor Andrew Cuomo, went down for “a lot of reasons,” and stresses that despite the repercussions, he will never regret helping his family. Anthony shares how Chris helped him with his own marital issues, and the pair compare notes on their Italian upbringings and frequently being mistaken for members of the Mob. Finally, Anthony asks Chris about his much-anticipated book “Deep Denial,” which was dropped by publishers following his firing, and what he hopes the Cuomo family legacy will look like, from Mario and Matilda to Andrew and his children.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Unities across Canada, hourly Amazon employees can grow their skills and their paycheck by enrolling in free skills training programs for in-demand fields. Learn more at aboutamazon.ca. I am Anthony Scaramucci and welcome to Open Book where I talk with some of the most interesting and brilliant minds in our world today. In this show, I'll bring on guests in business, politics, entertainment, and more to go deep into a piece of their work, whether it's a highly anticipated, book, an in-depth feature story, or an opinion piece that has captured my attention. We'll dig into why it matters to you and how their work is shaping our future.

On today's episode, I talk with a word-winning journalist and broadcaster, podcast host, and friend, Chris Cuomo. Being fired in the public eye absolutely sucks, even more so with family involved. I know Chris will never regret helping his brother Andrew. He's had a rough time with it, but is certainly coming back. stronger. We discuss Chris's CNN firing, the aftermath, and bouncing back. What people don't know about his brother Andrew and his resilience. We get personal on mental health, depression, and family. Chris reveals what was in his book, Deep Denial, and the Cuomo family legacy.

Joining us now on Open Book is Chris Cuomo, anchor of Cuomo on News Nation, and the host of the Chris Cuomo project, Chris, first of all, you look like you're an amazing backdrop. You look like you're in a postcard, God bless you. Well, let's get right into it, okay? You and I have known each other a long time. I think that the most brutal period of time for me was when I got fired from the White House. We both have had our ups and downs. You've had an amazing career. Tell me how you keep your philosophical perspective. Tell me how you approach your life. Life is Pain management, things are going to happen, things are going to come. You have a very healthy perspective on this.

When things are good, when there are ups, you must appreciate it because they're not forever, and problems are going to come. You can choose to make them opportunities. Sometimes they just suck with some health stuff in my family right now in the older generation. And it's just a terrible reminder of the inevitable and how little control you have. So life is pain management. Bad things are going to come, and it's up to you how you handle it. Okay, but, you know, you grew up in a traditional Italian family like I did.

And so you got raised Catholic. And they said to us when we were kids, from dust you came and from dust you're going to go to, right? You remember that whole thing with the Ash Wednesday, right? Yes. So, but does that help you keep perspective? No, everybody, everything that lives dies. Look, perspective comes from so many different places, especially as you get older. It's all about what you decide to pay attention to.

My paternal grandmother, my father's mother, always used to say, hey, who told you you're supposed to be happy? And, you know, that can be seen as cynicism, but I don't think it is. That's true. Happiness is not a given. It's perceived. It's realized. It's developed. And it's your choice, whether or not to be happy.

You know, we both have known people who are in horrible situations who seem absolutely joyous. And you're like, this guy is delusional. No. He's no more delusional than you are for few. feeling the way you do about what your situation is. Right. Well, all right, but you have had, okay, so in my observation of you in your career, when I think of you, I think of fairness.

I don't think you drive a hard edge towards anybody other than after an observation of the facts and then you draw a conclusion. You don't strike me as stridently philosophically bent one way or the other. ideologically, that's true. My politics would be what everybody should be, which is progressive pragmatism. You want to be conservative, be conservative. You want to be liberal. They're both self-limiting. And the problem is the binary system of the parties. Politics should be easy. It's about compromise. It's about solutions, just like everywhere else in life. You know, I wanted to get these louvers fixed. One guy quotes me six grand. I say, have a nice day. Another guy quotes me

three grand. I say, hmm, why so cheap? And then, you know, you start talking. to the guys about the materials and what it's going to take and how long and you check their references and you figure out what's the right move for you. We don't do that in our politics. It's, yeah, I'm going with this guy, even though he's twice as much and they say he thinks at his job because he's my guy, you know? It's the identity. It's the tribal. It takes politics a problem. And the media can fall into that also, if only in the coverage of the game, that they get so addicted to covering the game that you get situations like where they come out with poll numbers and tell us who's winning among Republicans and Democrats in terms of registration

and they ignore the reality that more people are independent than either of the other two. Why? That doesn't serve the game. So I don't have an ideological bent. My brother's a Democrat. My father was a Democrat. I married into a rock-ripped conservative Republican family. They're all my family.

I love them all. Ideology is not the problem. I don't have one, but it's not the problem. The parties are the problem. And with me, you give what you get. If you come on my show and you're a jerk, then you get the teeth. If you come on and you want to have a reasonable conversation, we will. The only thing I don't do because I got to respect the platform in the audience is I don't return personal attacks.

You know, you want to come at me personally because you're losing a debate. I don't do that because it's disrespecting my audience. Right. All right. I make sense. But you, listen, I got bounced pretty hard from the White House. And we're in a cancel culture. That bounce took place about six years ago.

It's hard to believe it's that long ago. at the time it felt cataclysmic upon reflection it was almost like a release and a relief in a weird way I felt you treated me very fairly though right and I and I feel like I got destroyed by a lot of different people but you had a certain approach to it and forget about our friendship for a second because you know we've gotten closer over the years but give me the process in your brain in terms of how you're you're looking at the news and how you're dealing with the very things that happen in what I would call now our cancel culture? Well, there's a lot there, so let's unpack it.

When it comes to how I view politics, I view it as little as possible. I don't cover the game except to expose it. So I'm not going to give you three segments tonight about the debt ceiling. Look, we learned in 2011 and 2013, you don't make deals on the debt ceiling. You oil the markets, you screw everything up, and the politicians aren't going to hold to the deal anyway. So you got to give clean dead ceilings. You have to do it.

And then you fight about the budget when it's time to fight about the budget. So I'm not going to engage in it. Oh, well, he said this, but she said that. Because people don't care. And I do more things that are politics adjacent. I do more crime. I do more culture than I do left-right politics because I believe that it's a saturated space. I look at politics the way Neo looks at the matrix in the movie The Matrix.

I've been in this so long. I've lived it so long on the media side, on the political side, that I just see what's happening up to a very, very narrow degree of error. It doesn't really interest me, but I see it. And I am making a conscious decision to only cover politics in ways that it matters. I don't do left right. I expose the game. I don't play gotcha.

I don't go chasing after people's personal lives, not because of what happened in my brother, but because I never did. It's cheap. You hurt somebody. You create a victim. You've got a problem if you want to be able. But I don't care about your marriage. I really don't care about your finances beyond what's legal and illegal.

And I think that you wind up really culling the herd of good leaders when you do that. Because as you know this from your guys, you have so many competent guys in your lives who want to help and they do it in their own way. But then I'm getting into politics because they don't need everything they've ever done in their life ripped up on them. So what I do is in this new show is I'm really trying to have a broader aperture on what matters. and I'm trying to remember what I've been through every day and not forgetting and falling back into what works and what will rate more and what will get me higher on the media list and what will get more people talking about me.

I've played that game. Frankly, I believe I won that game. I was number one at CNN. I wasn't set up to me. I wasn't the big name there. I didn't have the big team. They didn't do the advertising about me, but I was still number one.

Why? Because it was the best show, because I was giving people what they needed in that moment. I'll never be that again. that was taken from me. I believe wrongly. I'll litigate that. I'm not going to bitch about it in the press. I'm not going to badmouth CNN because I love the people there and I wish them well. And I believe the best news organization in the world. But I don't like how I was fired. I'll litigate that. That's arbitration. And I'm seeing that through. But this is a different place. It's a different space and it's a different show.

And I do more long form interviews. I talk more about life. I talk more about struggle because, frankly, it matters more to me than is Speaker McCarthy a hypocrite? Of course he's a hypocrite. He's a politician. That's what they do if they want to win the game. Of course George Santos should get thrown out on his ass. You really need night after night coverage of that bullshit. You don't need that. So I'm doing a different show because I'm trying to get different people. I'm trying to get independent-minded people who have politics in one quarter of their life, but it does not define who they are 24-7. I'm done with that. Well, there's only one thing that I disagree with what you just said.

Okay, you ready? Yeah. You do care about my marriage, okay, because you specifically told me to get my shit together and reconnect with my wife and rebuild my marriage. So I love you for that, by the way. I love you for that. I never have talked about your marriage when you were the communications director if I liked you or I hated you. Right.

No, I understand. I'm just teasing you. I'm teasing you. You're a good friend. by the way. You know, when I got my ass fire, you brought me to your house in South Hampton, we sat in your living room, and you gave me some great advice. And one of the things you told me was reconnect with your wife and patch this thing up. Like, probably, I don't even know if you remember it, but I appreciate you for doing that. She was very mad at me for doing that. She thought

she had a clear exit. She had a whole new life plan. You're lucky you're fucking bigger than me, man, because I would fucking beat your ass in. But I can't. You're the son of a bitch at the bar. I'm walking to the bar. I say, okay, whose girlfriend is that son of a bitch? I don't feel like getting thrown through the fucking window. Okay, but let's keep going here, okay? You love your family. You backed your brother. You know, I know your brother for 25-ish years. I think it's at least 25, maybe longer. I backed him for governor when he was running against Carl McCall. I was writing checks in him in the 2002 period of time. I think the world of your brother backed him for Attorney General, obviously backed him for governor. Tell us something.

about your brother that we don't know. He hurts. Andrew's not made of Teflana. He's not made of some, you know, alien material. He hurts. He feels pain. This was terrible what he was put through. And, you know, the older you get, the more you measure people by what they endure, everybody's going to bleed. Like I said, life is pain management. And I cannot believe the resilience that he has shown. Most people in his position who get a fraction of what he gets, they don't even look the same the next time you see them. So I've always known who my brother was and what he's about and what he isn't. I have no illusions about him. But he hurts. He has a tremendous depth of emotion that really fuels his service. I mean, I can't tell you how many conversations I've had

with Andrew about why he wanted to run for governor, why he wanted to do it again, one term is enough, two terms is enough, three terms is enough, get out of there. This is a hellhole during the pandemic. I kept saying to him, what goes up, comes down. When they started wanting him on my show at CNN, obviously, they weren't news interviews. Obviously, the country wanted them and benefited from them. I've never been thanked for anything I've done in 25 years, almost every time I'm out in public. People needed the humanity. They needed normal and to understand the dynamics that would help the rest of us cope. And I have no regrets about that. I knew there would be trouble. Because I knew if nothing else, there was jealousy. I knew there would be trouble. I knew that

somebody could claim capital J journalism and you shouldn't be interviewing your brother. I get it. I think it was very clear to the audience. I've never had people in the audience say, you know, I really expected you to go harder after your brother. Nobody. Nobody. Not just because I saying it on TV. But, you know, during that period, I would say to him, a lovegov, this comes down, by the way. And I said on TV, you can actually find the transcript. There will be a period of accountability for what people in leadership, including my brother, did during this time. And I will not be able to cover the accountability of my brother because he's my brother. And obviously, I'm biased. I said it on national television because it was always going to happen.

I just never expected the type of, you know, recoil and the depth. Were you surprised by the way it went down? I mean, I mean, I have a theory I want to test it on you. Tell me if I'm right or wrong. I've talked to your brother about this. I sort of feel like he was fired from his job because he wasn't woke enough that the left, the far left took him out. Far left had this opinion that, hey, man, if this guy rises to power, he's not

somebody that we can control, meaning if he ascended to the presidency or something like that? He went down for a lot of reasons. And, you know, to me, there's very little upside. I've spent so much time thinking about this or I used to. It doesn't help. Why did it happen? It happened for a bunch of reasons. He had a bunch of accusations come against him. He belongs to a party where accusations are enough. He was being measured by a media where accusations are enough unless they're against you, and then all of a sudden you want due process and you want all these other things. But when it comes to somebody else, we have a standard when it comes to cancel culture, good, bad, right, wrong, where I come forward and I say, Anthony did this to me. Do you have any proof?

No. You have no written proof. You have no pictures. You have nothing. No, but I'm telling you, Anthony did this to me. I'm getting into the media. I'm getting on the paper. And as soon as I get into one publication, everybody else will start using the word reportedly, allegedly, and according to and it's everywhere. And there's no proof and there's no recourse. Oh, you can sue. Oh, and what? And what pocket are you going to tap?

Are you going to go after the media? Reckless disregard of truth? What does that mean? That means they had reason to know that the person was lying and they did it anyway. It's a very high bar. And if somebody, well, we believed him. We believed Chris when he said that Anthony stole his cookies. We believed him.

But he had no proof that the cookies were stolen. He had no proof that he even really knew Anthony, let alone had cookies with them. Yeah, but I believe them. Who would lie? Why would lie? And that's even more true when you get into sexual and physical allegations. Why would somebody make it up?

A lot of people don't make it up. Most of the time it is true. Sometimes it isn't. And we all know why. We just close an eye to that because we like the value of the story at the time. It is great to see a big name go down. The media builds up and tears down. Yeah, I love it.

And there is an illusion in that that, that negativity is a proxy for insight. I think bad things that means you're being smart. You say good things means you're being soft. So Andrew had a lot of allegations. He belonged to a party where allegations are enough. He was a threat to a lot of people. He didn't share the shine during the pandemic

the way a lot of other jealous Democrats wish he had. And he's in a game. Politics is a game. And it has rules. And he broke the rules of his team. Right or wrong, fair unfair. So it was always a clock ticking. and Andrew will tell you, I was saying this to him, which is why, ironically, I was not more involved

with his situation and his team because they were like STFU about me on a regular base. Enough with that we got to take it. Enough with that you got to resign. But I saw what was going to happen and I was worried about him personally, Anthony. I don't give a shit that my brother's the governor. I'm proud. Like I was proud of my pop because of the service, not the title. and I was so worried about what it would do to him and do his girls and to my sisters and to my family.

And I couldn't stop it. I couldn't make it better. I couldn't help him get to a better place in that instance. And that's just the way life goes. All right. Well, listen, I always love our conversations because they're so fresh and candid. My podcast is about books. Books to me are also people.

so the open book is a double entendre. I see you as an open book. I think that's why you're so good on TV. You have yet to publish a book, but I believe you had a book that you were working on originally titled Deep Denial. Am I right about that? Yeah, and my publisher went sideways with me

because I got fired, and now I'm in litigation there, trying to figure that out, because this is unacceptable. And look, I don't even begrudge them. You know, I'm a little weird, when it comes to this stuff, when you were raised with as much scrutiny and public scrutiny, and you see that so much of the game played out in your own family, with your own loved ones,

and your own friends, as long as I have since I was a freaking kid, you just don't judge things the same way. Right. I have such a high indifference curve. I don't mean that economically. I mean that in terms of, you know, it just takes so much for me to have an opinion about somebody. Yeah, but he said this. Yeah, but she said that.

Yeah, I know, but that's what people do is shit talk me. That's what people do is lie about my father. So, you know, I got to work my way through this stuff. I had a book that I thought would be really helpful for people about what I learned about how we acted and didn't act during the pandemic. Because I really think it's important that we learn the lessons. Otherwise, you repeat them. Right. And it was an interesting process for me because I was sick and then I was so in a bubble, you know, like we all were.

but then even more so, that I had no idea how much of an impact my coverage during that time had on people. Like, until I got shit-canned, Anthony, I never even looked at my message requests on social media until I was hiring somebody to call my social media. And they were like, do you know that like every famous woman and man has talked about you in the last six months and is trying you to follow them? And I had no idea. I never looked. Right. And I didn't care. I understood what it was.

I just didn't understand the reach of it. and the resonance of it until I took the time to process, and there's a lesson in that. Yeah. You're good at this. When things are good, stop, smell the roses, as they say. Yeah. You will step in shit. Yeah.

You will. And, you know, we can say, perversely, oh, you know, that's good luck. Yeah, we tell ourselves that because we don't want to deal with trouble. But I don't believe in that. You step in shit. It stinks. It's terrible. It's not good luck.

No, I'm with you. But, I mean, it's like with the Buddha said, the whole thing is in a constant state of change. So the good time is going to go away. The bad time is also going to go away. Time is immutable. No question. But it's correct. Very subjective. Just because a long time goes away doesn't mean you've got to be doing the right things. You've got to make things happen. There is no luck. There's no fate. There is no destiny. What happens is what you make happen and how you deal with what is made to happen to you for better and worse. And, you know, I make a lot of mistakes.

Sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad reason. I'm very flawed. There's damage. There's damage that's relatable to people. There's damage that's unrelatable to people that I have to deal with, that I try to deal with, that I do the work on. I still fail. And I have learned to accept it. I had to accept because I was going to kill everybody, including myself.

Things can consume you. Italians are so passionate. And I really had to fight against that because, you know, just like you did, I got too many people counting on me. And look, I'm going to screw up. And I always tell my kids, you know, almost 20, 17, 13, that don't be me. Learn from me. I love you. I will always love you.

It doesn't matter what you do. And I am here for whatever I can do. I'm going to get angry. I'm going to screw up. I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going to say and do things that you should not say and do. and I try, but I fail, and you have to know that. I'm not here, okay?

And don't idolize me because I am no idol. I'm just someone to learn from for better and worse. And I wish I had been told that more. I wish I didn't have to go through the same cycle that so many of us do, where you put everyone in your life up on a pedestal. Because when they fall, that rebound effect is usually too dramatic. And if I had just had clearer eyes from the beginning, it would have made more sense sooner.

So it's an interesting insight. And, you know, I was, you know, I probably don't watch Yellowstone, but I was watching this scene in Yellowstone. Dadney Coleman is playing the 90-year-old father of the guy that's now running the ranch, his son. He's about to die. And he says to him, you know, son, the problem is, is that I never was the person that you thought I was,

meaning the son was idealizing him. And as we both know, there's no hero to. a man's valet. And so the point is, I know this is a weird thing to say to you, but I feel like my public shortcomings, my failings, my trials and tribulations are helping my children. Because if I step back and I describe Chris Cuomo to somebody, and you know, I've had this conversation with you in San Juan, you're Chris Cuomo. Okay. And you've done X, Y, and Z, or whatever your ups and downs are, you have built a unbelievable career success. And again, I'm not. trying to brag or not even humble brag, but I've had pretty good success, Chris.

You know, I went to Tufts, Harvard Law School, built two businesses, got shit camp from the White House. I'm getting my ass destroyed right now in my business. I mean, I'm down like 35 percent, but I still built it. You know, you still built it. And what's crazy about our kids, you've got to be very careful. If they don't see the ups and downs, then they can get nervous about their own lives. It's almost better for them to see the ups and downs and the vulnerability, because it allows them to have that space to have that volatility in their own lines. I don't know. No, you're right.

You're right. Your kids are younger. Some are younger. Some are younger. I got a 30-year-old, which is who you met for breakfast for a morning. I got a really talented daughter. So anyway, look, you got your blessings. You got your bad.

It's going to happen. Is it better for that clear eyes? Yes. But it's tricky. You know, one great piece of advice I got from my therapist early on in this. Because this really knocked me sideways. You know, one of the things I like to say maybe too much. is how damaging this was to me personally.

And I know that a lot of people don't give a shit. That's okay. I'm not saying it because I care what you think. I'm saying it because it's true. And I have always benefited from having very little interest in people's opinion about me. Because I believe that they're wrong both ways. They say these fawning things that I'm like, yeah, you don't know me. And they say terrible things.

I'm like, okay, you don't know. So I've always had a sense of equanimity about that that is somewhat. unusual for someone in the media. But my therapist said to me, I like that you're finally opening up in the pain and the herd and the embarrassment and the shame and the fear and the blah, blah, blah, but at home, everything stays the same. Your life changed. You are in the shit, not your kids. They're suffering with it. You tell them that that's not okay and it's not fair and that it's you, not them and their lives stay the same. They go back to school. They take their vacations. they get whatever they want or they deserve.

Nothing changes. There is no austerity mode. And I was going to do all the opposite. And it was really helpful for me to understand that. Put a lot of pressure on me because I had to eat some shit. You know, I had to keep stuff inside, but I had the therapist. And I had to make it okay. And that was hard, but it was right.

And I'm happy that he gave me that advice and that I followed it as well as I could. And, you know, I am so deep into philosophy. I read it and study it and think about it so constantly that eventually I had a eureka moment where it is all the same. There are very few truths and it really is about what you decide. If you want to be happy, then it doesn't matter that there is a knife in the side of your neck. Then you're happy. You may bleed out, but you're happy. And you have to make the choices that work for you and you have to pot down, turn down,

what other people think about it. You have to. You have to learn how to do it if you want to be in public. If you want to take swings, you've got to be ready to deal with how it is when you get hit. So, for instance, I am obsessed in the true meaning of the word with self-defense. I train in self-defense all the time. I have trained in many different types of fighting over the years. I now see them, no disrespect to anybody who does it. If it works for you, great. Enjoy it. Don't use it on other people unless you have to, unless you're defending yourself, because now you're what you oppose. But I stopped doing all of them except self-defense because it didn't matter.

I didn't care what belt I was. I didn't care about my form. I didn't care about how high I can kick anymore and how fast I am. It was all practical. My life now is almost exclusively practical. Every appetite, every instinct is how does this work for me? And what do I want? You want a friend?

Be a friend. that's my rule. And then when somebody screws me over, okay, now I get it. And it's hard for me to let go because I care about people, but you got to do it. And self-defense is all about practical. How do you defend yourself? I don't want to hurt anybody. I want to stop them from hurting me. How do I do that? How do I do that in this situation, that applies in everything? All the philosophy that I read, all the stoicism that I read about so much is a function of what do I control and what do I do when I screw up? Because I'm going to screw up. I'm going to make the wrong choice for the show. I'm going to ask the wrong question. I'm going to say the wrong. wrong thing. I'm going to tweet the wrong thing. I'm going to be the wrong way with my son, with my daughter, with my wife, with my friends, my siblings. What do I do then? How do I handle it? That's how I live now because I had to tune out everything else. Otherwise, I wasn't going to be able to be what I wanted to be. Now, it's, I'm still working on it, Anthony, and that's okay. That's okay. I'm just more open about the process because I think it's helpful to people. I've gotten great feedback of people saying, even if they say, damn, you know, that's really messed up.

how you feel what it is. Even if it gives them better perspective on how they deal with their own stuff, it's worth it to me. And I never did that before, but I'm willing to do it now. Well, everything that you're saying, by the way, I think is reflected in your new show. Because I have your show. I don't see it every night because sometimes I'm out, but I have it recorded. And when I get into the gym, I watch your show. The interviews, the content, the people you're bringing on. And, you know, I live next to Bill O'Reilly. and I see Bill from time to time, and I don't agree with everything Bill says. I know you don't agree with everything Bill says.

But I like his analytical approach. I do respect his sensibility. And I love the fact that even though you're probably different from him ideologically, he's on the show and you're conversing with him because there's a civility to your show that I think the world's coming towards now. Maybe I'm wrong. And maybe this is overly optimistic of me, but I feel like it doesn't matter. We need it anyway.

Yeah, people are coming into that, into that zip code. If they are, that's great. If they're not, that's okay. It doesn't matter to me. The more I see in social media, which is not reality, but it's becoming reality, which is why I'm slow to say they're coming to a better place. I don't know that. But the more I see the basis of rejection of Bill O'Reilly, the more resolute I am to have

them on the show. it'd be one thing people were like, what the hell is he talking about with Haiti? He's so wrong about Sean Penn in Haiti. He's so wrong, which is accurate, by the way. He is wrong. But that's not what they said. They make up shit about his past. Right.

They make up stuff about his character. And it's so artificial that it's so extreme. It's so hyperbolic. And it makes me more resolved to have him on than I was even before. So look, I'm taking chances. I'm trying things. I've got to try more things. I'm trying to build something.

The audience is small. It's hard to keep perspective on that because it's kind of embarrassing. Well, not really, though. I mean, let me give you some perspective. The audience is small for a number of reasons. Nobody knows where to find the goddamn channel. I'll tell you, because people aren't watching. Right.

Well, that's one of the things. All right, let me, in the short time I have left with you, I'm going to, I've got five words. I'm going to read out the word. and then I want you to come up with a one-word response. Okay, you're ready? You know, one or two-word response. Okay, you ready?

Yeah. Matilda. Love. Andrew. Strength. Mario. Truth. Okay, there are two Mario's, though, if you don't mind me saying.

Okay, there's an older man. I'm not talking about my 17-year-old. I know. That's for sure. I know. There's a younger Mario, and there's an older Mario. Okay, so let's go to the. younger, Mario.

Progress. All right. You go. That's the best we can hope for for our kids. I'll tell you something. I'll tell you something about my son. I love how different he is for me. We fight, we butt heads all the time.

He's my height now, and he's got this misplaced sense that that means something other than the distance between his head in the ground when he falls. But he has got a depth of confidence that I have never had. And, you know, people mistake guys like you and me. They'll say you're cocky. Listen, when people are trying to come for you, you make a choice. Right. You're either going to be a victim.

Yeah, never. Never played a victory. Yeah, of course. Happy warrior, Chris, a happy warrior. Fine. My disposition is, if you want it, come get it. But it ain't going to be easy. Pack a lunch.

Mario has a confidence where he doesn't even need to do that. He's already in a better place. Progress is the word that. comes to mind when I think of that gorgeous young man. All right. There's two more words, okay, and we're almost done. Family. Everything.

The word Cuomo. What do I think when I think the word Cuomo? I guess the word legacy pops to mind, you know, which is an indefinite term. But I also think it's an indefinite thing right now. I don't know what the legacy of the family is right now. We took such a beating that I don't know where it ends up. No, you got to have, you got to have more, more, more. more perspective. You get a more perspective.

Well, I'm just being honest with you. You ask me the thing. I mean, I think when I think formal, I think legacy. I think leadership. My father, you know, my father had such a different take on. My father had like pathological modesty. You know how you say like you're proud of your son? I say I'm proud of my son. I'm proud of this, proud of that. My father would look like this at you.

And you'd be like, what? What'd I say? That's wrong. You know, pride is a deadly sin. He would say, you mean you're proud. What does that mean? You're better than me? And you said, no, no, I'm just happy that my kid is. this or I'm proud that he's not. He was so perverse. It was so odd. He was like that about everything. He would walk into the house and he'd say, look around and be like, what is all this? Like, that's just how he was. If you wanted him to speak at salt, if you called him and asked him to speak at salt, he'd go as long as it wasn't a long trip. If you said, hey, Gov, we need you to come.

I'm going to give you 75 grand. Hey, you keep it. Right. I don't need your money, big shot. So he had a very different tape. But for me, when I think about our name, I think about a legacy. of leadership. But, you know, there's a, there's time left in the game. I have a picture of my wife with your brother when he was governor and your dad and your mom from the Columbus Citizens Foundation. I know if I've ever sent it to you, but I could find it on my phone. I'll send it. And because he was there, I was being honored for something, whenever it was, but I got up there and I said three things to the people. I said, number one, as my grandfather said, we. We discovered the place.

It was named by us, you know, America for Spucci. Yeah, don't say that too loud because they'll change it. No, they get very upset. Yeah, exactly. So I said, you know, the Italians discovered it. It got named by us. And the rest of the people are just living here, but we really do own this place. And so, and then I said, thank you, ladies and gentlemen, very much.

And I walked off. Your father thought it was the best. He was sitting next to Ray Kelly. And he said to me, say it again. Because he's like, he wanted to write it down. And he looked at me, goes that was great. That's why I actually got.

I got that from my grandfather, I said to Governor Cuomo. And he was like, oh, but that was so good, you know. But your dad was that kind of a guy. It's very true. And you know, you do have, and I always thought it was very interesting when people were getting into the cult of mooch when you were being introduced to the national media scene and how much they were embracing you.

It was always interesting to me to see the, Italianism of it for a constructed term. Because I always saw that with my father, too. You know, my father, one of the last funny things he ever said. Someone read to him a piece about me and that I was doing well because of white privilege. And he went, hot damn, we made it because he was never considered white. He was a swarthy ethnic, a hot-blooded mercurial Mario. And maybe he's in the mob at his dark circles and his gap-toothed,

And his brown skin. Aren't you in the mob? We're all in the mob, aren't we? But I'm saying, like, that's how it was. And I can't tell you for how many years when I was even in this business. I would try, oh, Como, yeah, like in New York. You guys are in the mafia, right? But they wouldn't be trying to be insulting.

They just assumed it. And I remember when you were coming up, you know, what I call the Ayo, you know, where people would talk about, you know, Anthony Scarabucci, the moch. Hey, Anthony, hey, blah, blah, blah. And intrinsically in there, even if it's implied, Italians are the only ethnic group you're allowed to shit talk. 100%. I was Tony Soprano on the Potomac. I was a Jersey short cast member inside the White House.

I was a mobster. I mean, they said everything. It's true. Yeah. I don't give a shit. You know, either. I mean, that's the great thing about being Italian. You know, I mean, I'm a big believer in the First Amendment, you know?

I don't care. They can say whatever they want. All right, my last question for you, they're going to let you go, okay? Governor Andrew Cuomo is coming on. We do a home and away, my podcast, his podcast. Give me a question for your brother, Governor Andrew Cuomo, that I can drop on him. That'll just, you know, knock his lights out. Well, a real question to ask him would be, are you done with public service?

Yeah. That would be a real one. Yeah. What do you think the answer to that is? I think the answer is no. No, me too. Yeah, of course. I'm not happy about that answer as his brother, all right?

Yeah, me too. Like he's given you people enough. And I think he's got to think about himself and his well-being and his happiness more than service. Right. And he'll say, but service is my happy. But let him say it to you. And then the hard truth, how does he feel that his brother is superior in every measurable

male characteristic? Oh, no, I'm going to be sure to say that to him because, you know what, it'll probably be over Zoom and I won't get my ass. And before he says some politician thing. Just remember, he is six foot half inch. I am six two. He is about 200 pounds. I am 230.

Okay. He struggles to get off the couch. I could lift the Toyota off my chest. Okay. He hits a heavy bag. I hit people who hit back. Do you understand? He has a boat.

I have a boat and I fish. Okay? He fishes with a white shirt. I come back all bloody and with no shirt. These are the facts. Okay. He has a big dog that he says is so tough. It got beaten up by two months in his neighborhood.

Okay? I have a chihuahua that kills anything it can get its mouth up. So those are the facts. All right. I mean, it's important. And how does he handle it? It's important. Being the brother, being the perceived alpha,

but really being like, you know, half a step more than a beanbag. Yeah. Well, you know, this is going to be my first question. I'm going to read off all of it. Yeah. And remember, don't forget the facts. When he says, important, I love triangulating between two brothers, too.

That'll be a thing for you do. No, no. It's about. truth, that's all it's about. And he can say what he wants to say and he's slick and he's glibed. Oh, TV boy, meaty boy, makeup boy. Let him say all those things. Just the facts. Taller, bigger, stronger, gets hit back when they fight as opposed to hitting baggie. Okay. All right. I promise. I promise. Well, it has been always a delight.

Chris Cuomo, the anchor of Cuomo on News Nation and the host of an amazing podcast. the Chris Cuomo project and a free agent, self-described free agent. I think the best is yet to come, Chris. I really do believe that. You watch. Listen, you watch the best yet to come. With what is to come. That's all I control.

Everything else, somewhere else. The best is yet to come, my brother. Thank you for joining me, me. Chris stood up for his family and you guys know that I respect that. I believe that Chris and his brother share a commonality of love and loyalty, but also family tradition. I think one of the big legacies of the Como family will be a combination of service, public service as it related to Andrew and Mario, but also system service, meaning a observation of the entire system through the clear-eyed thinking of the journalist Chris Cuomo. So it's a

huge family, lots of fun people in it. Maria Cuomo is married to Kenneth Cole, the fashion designer, and there's some extraordinary young men and women that are rising in the ranks of the Cuomo family. And I do believe that this family will be remembered historically in New York as one that made a significant contribution over a 50-year period of time. Let's talk about Chris Cuomo because you like Chris Cuomo, right? I like Chris Cuomo. I worked with Matilda Cuomo because there was a fundraiser for the same kind of leukemia that I have today. And their son died from it because they didn't have flee. that's then and his mother was very, very interested in charity and they even have part of the hospital

named after the Montes. Right. And the Tilda Coma was there and she was very soft, very, very nice. Why do you like Chris? Because I think he's real and he, his style is not BS and he did a typical Italian thing where he defended his brother good, better, and different. All right. So you don't, you think you should have been fired for doing that? No. Right. So, So you supported him defending his brother, right? Yes, I definitely did. Right. And that's why I think I see good in Chris because he would defend even his friends because he's, you know, he's a very wholesome person, I think.

Yeah. Right. What else? All right. Am I answering might? No, I don't care. It's not right or wrong, Mom. I'm interested in your opinion.

You're like the star of the show at this point. So you're stealing the show. So it's not right or wrong. It's just your opinion. So let me ask you this, though, okay? I talk to Chris about mental health, depression, and families, right? And what do we know about families, mom? Most people have situations going on in their life, right?

Most people have things that they hype when it comes to mental illness. But not saying to who, but I have an experience with mental illness. And I think that is a very touchy thing. And if you go to the right doctor, you become better. Do you remember the night that we went to the Waldorf, And the Columbus Citizen Foundation honored me there. Okay. Yes.

Do you remember what I said that pop used to stay that the Italians discovered America, Cruciful Columbus? Yes. And it was named by the Italians, American Vespucci. I said that the rest of the people are just living here, but we own the place. You remember that? Yes. Are you like being Italian, Ma, or no?

I'm very proud of my ethics background. Okay. Why do you like me in Italian so much? I like, my mother loved opera. and I went to three of them. And the last one I went to Tosco with Maria Callis in 1964, and I fell asleep, but she wouldn't take me anymore. She got mad at you, right?

After you fell asleep at the opera, she wouldn't take you anymore, right? She wouldn't take me anymore. She did not know how to read English because she was an immigrant to medley, but she was very regal and very unafraid of life, and she would go by herself, and then she would go to the Carissa Restorese, front by herself, sit down like a lady. She was very tall, very straight, and she had no fears at all. Making me remember everything, yes? All right. Well, wait a minute. Am I off now?

Because I have to ask you something. Are you up? I'm going to call you right back. How's that? I'll call you right back. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was Open Book. Thank you for listening. If you like what you hear, tell your friends, and make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. While you're there, please leave us a rating or review. If you want to connect with me to chat more about the discussions, it's at Scaramucci on Twitter. It's also at Scaramucci on Instagram. You can text me at plus one, 911, 909-2996. I'd love to hear from you. Let me know what you think and who you'd like to see on our show next. I'll see you back here next week.