Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - The Death of Power As We Know It - Elizabeth Day

Episode Date: March 3, 2026

Today we've got the brilliant Elizabeth Day on Open Book, and let me tell you, her new novel One of Us is the book of the year — a razor-sharp, hilariously dark dive into the corruption of power, class warfare, and rich people behaving very, very badly. Elizabeth breaks it all down with the kind of insight that will make you rethink everything you thought you knew about who's really running the world — and why it's all falling apart. Elizabeth Day is the author of The Party and other books, as well as one of the most influential podcasters at work today. Her show, How to Fail, has become a go-to hitmaker, launching authors such as Meg Mason and Glennon Doyle onto the bestseller list in the UK. I predict that this is the novel of the year (yes, I know it's March), get your copy of One of Us here: https://amzn.to/4012yCs Listen to her brilliant podcast "How To Fail With Elizabeth Day here: https://pod.link/1407451189 Anthony Scaramucci is the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge, a global alternative investment firm, and founder and chairman of SALT, a global thought leadership forum and venture studio. Pre-order my next book, All the Wrong Moves: How Three Catastrophic Decisions Led to the Rise of Trump, out on the 17th of September in the UK and the 22nd of September in the US: ⁠https://linktr.ee/anthonyscaramucci Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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is the structure where the citizens have had enough of this nonsense and they can see it more plaintively as a result of social media, etc., that they're punching hard at it. Is it breaking down, Elizabeth? We are experiencing the death rattle of a kind of patriarchal toxicity that has corrupted power and corrupted our experience as both men and women. People of all genders are harmed by the kind of power that we now have in place. And so when we see the excesses and when the Epstein files are revealed, and when people in power do horrible things to ever-increasing degrees of magnitude,

the only way I can not lose hope is to believe that it's a kind of parasitic rage. It's the last gasp of this culture before it dies out. within institutions you're going to see a huge shift of personnel and hopefully a shift in character to go from where we are now, which is a post-shame culture, into a culture that is filled with integrity and respect for people wherever they come from. Welcome to Open Book. I am your host, Anthony Scaramucci. Joining us today is Elizabeth Day, who is a prolific best-selling author, and I think has written the novel of the year, Elizabeth Day, okay?

Hold this up. Stop it. Carry on. No, no, I'm putting you in the Bonnie Garmus category, okay, lessons in chemistry. We had Bonnie on the show a few years back. I said this will be the novel of the year. James Daunt, the Barnes & Noble guy, who we've had on our show. He made her novel, the novel of the year. But this is fantastic.

This has got everything, but it's also speaking to us about our contemporary society and what's going on on our society right now. So, but before we get into the book, let's go to you. Tell us about your background, how you got into writing and podcasting. Also have an incredible podcast. So tell us a little about you first, Elizabeth. First of all, I think I can die happy. Now that I've heard the mooch say that about my novel,

I cannot tell you what a huge fan I am of yours. And we'll get on to me in a second, but I feel that you and Cathy Kay kept me sane during a very challenging time for the world. So thank you so much for having me on your podcast and thank you for saying such lovely things about one of us. And my story is a bit higgledy-piggledy. I was born just outside London.

And when I was for, my family and I moved to the north of Ireland where my dad was a doctor and he got a job in the National Health Service in Derry. And growing up there at that particular time was quite difficult for a kid with an English accent like mine because the troubles were still raging. And I never felt confident speaking

because someone would think I was an outsider. So I got used to listening. And I think that's ultimately what made me into both a storyteller and an interviewer. So to cut a long story short, books were my refuge, my salvation in so many ways. I always knew that I wanted to write.

I started out as a print journalist in the UK. And then I ended up doing a lot of celebrity interviews for Sunday newspapers. And those interviews, as you will know, they can be quite sort of restrictive sometimes. You're only ever talking about that person's latest success. And I got quite tired of doing them. And I thought,

wouldn't it be great if we flipped the interview format on its head and started speaking to people about failure? So I launched my podcast, How to Fail, in July 2018. And the premise is very simple. And I hope you'll come on when your brilliant book is out. Anthony. I would love you. I mean,

I have failed upward my whole life, Elizabeth. So I can talk about failure. Well, that's great to hear. A lot of men aren't very comfortable talking about a failure, but that was a whole other podcast episode. Anyway, I ask guests to come up with three times they failed in their life and what they learned along the way. And then alongside that, I've continued writing books, which is really my big passion. And so, yeah, one of us is my 10th book. It's a novel. It's about rich people behaving badly and the corruption of power. And I hope it's also funny. So my easy pitch is it's a cross between succession. real Housewives of New York, the talent to Mr. Ripley, and let's throw House of Cards in there too. Yeah, I mean, I definitely see all those elements. I guess the thing that really struck me about the book is that it's a discussion that we need to have in our society right now about how the upper class, if you will, not just in the UK, but also here in the United States protects itself. and some of the trials and tribulations there.

But, you know, because I went to some of your interviews, if you don't mind, I want you to address this because I think you're brilliant at it. You said that you felt liberated writing this book in one of your interviews. You also said that you finally gave yourself permission to do what you hadn't done before. And so tell me about that. Tell me what you meant by those things and, you know, let it rip if you don't mind. Okay, I will do. Thank you for such an astute reading of the book, first of. And what I meant by that was a number of things. One is that I'm 47 now and I've written 10 books and the older I get, the less I care about what people I don't respect think of... Not to interrupt the programming, but you're hydrating very well, okay? You're doing a good job with the moisturiser, okay? All right, continue. I just want to just want to... I wanted to make sure they flag that for our fans out there.

You got to moisturise from the inside, ladies. You so do. I drink so much. I'm 62 years old. You got to moisturise from the inside. Okay, go ahead, Elizabeth. I'm sorry. You're not very well as well.

And actually, the fresh-facedness, which you were kind enough to acknowledge, is associated with the other thing that I wanted to say, which is that I am not a parent in the biological sense. And I spent the last 12 years of my life trying and, and failing to have the babies that I thought I yearned for. And that was an incredibly challenging fertility journey. I was married before my now husband and that marriage ended in divorce

in the throes of that facility treatment. And then I had three miscarriages along the way and it all felt incredibly painful. And anyone who is listening or watching to this who has experience of fertility, struggle will understand it when I say it's like having a whole separate brain, a whole separate life, a whole separate job. And I don't think I really acknowledged how much of my creative headspace all of that was taking up until we made the decision, and it was a very challenging

decision to make to end fertility treatment. So we had an unsuccessful round of egg donation, and that felt like where we wanted to draw the line. And it caused me great sadness to make that decision. And at the same time, what I've learned is you can be at peace living alongside that sadness. And one of us was the first book that I wrote in the aftermath of that decision. And so I think I felt less scared because one of the worst things I could have imagined had already happened to me. And the great privilege of writing fiction, and I also write nonfiction, but the great privilege of writing fiction is that you get to explore different lives on the page and you get to explore that experience and the truth of it.

And one of the main characters of one of us, Serena, is a mother of four. Now, she's not necessarily the kind of mother that I would have liked to have been, but she's coming to terms with the fact that she's not as close to her children as she wished she could have been because of where she comes from, because of her aristocratic pedigree, she's packed the kids off to boarding school. And she's now in her 40s, as I am, and she's perimenopausal, and she's going through this shift in identity and this fear of loss and she's realized that actually she loves being a mother. And so being able to explore that

was incredibly healing for me. And I think the final thing I'd say on this, Anthony, is that I think I had, if I'm being really honest, a fear around being funny on the page for a long time because I always wanted to be taken seriously as a novelist, capital S. And actually, I've now realized that some of the writers I most admire, they write seriously. beautiful, profound, moving books, and they are funny because that's life, right? That's life. Life is absurd and tragic, often simultaneously. And so I think it's also the book where I allowed myself free reign to just flow and be hopefully a bit funny. Yeah, well, first of all, the reason why the book is so brilliant is that it's dark.

It's a political drama. It's a class drama. And then it's hilariously funny. the same time. And so you're at the intersection of those two things. I'll make a confession to you. You know, I'm obsessed with stand-up. And I've done stand-up now three times. And I go to comedy clubs and do stand-up. My producer comes with me. I was great the first time. I sucked Elizabeth Day the second time. It was terrible. I mean, I had sweat rings coming down. It was terrible. And then the third time I did it, I was successful again. So it's very hard. when people are expecting you to be funny to be funny. You know, you're sort of, or more funny from a witty perspective, but you did it here.

So explain to me how you did that. Go ahead. Tell me, tell me the liberation in your brain and the creativity. Stand-up is so interesting because that's all about failure. Failure in stand-up is data acquisition, isn't it? Because you understand in dialogue with the audience what ends up working. You want to talk about it. Humiliation.

You can get fire from the White House after 11 days. No biggie. When you're doing stand-up Elizabeth and no one's laughing, it's way worse. Let me put it to you that way, okay? I think it speaks so well of you that you were fired from that White House. I just put it that way. Okay, well, that's free of you. But talk to me about your committic style.

It's so brilliant. And so something happened. You unleashed it. So tell me how you did it. I think it was twofold. I think it was stopping thinking about it so much because you're right. If you are writing something and saying to yourself, I've got to make this funny. I've got to make this into a punchline. For me, that never works. It feels so clunky. And I think the other thing was it's a world that I know really well. So one of us is a standalone book. You don't need to have read anything else. If you do, subsequent to having read it, want to read something else with the same characters, you can read an earlier book that I wrote called The Party. So I had already written a book involving some of these characters and some of this world. And I think the familiarisation of that was incredibly helpful because it meant I didn't have to be expositional.

I just launched into this book really firmly knowing everyone. And then I also know the world that they inhabit, but from the position of an observer in the, as I started off saying, you know, I grew up in Northern Ireland, but I speak with a pretty posh English accent. So I never fitted in there. Age 13, I got a scholarship to a boarding school in the UK, in England, sorry. And immediately I was accepted because I spoke this way. But I didn't know the codes of etiquette. So that was another place where I felt like a fish out of water. And so I became very used to observing British society primarily.

And because of the way that I speak, I get access to certain rooms that I wouldn't have got access to otherwise. And then because of what I went on to do, being a journalist, I was also invited to things. Being a journalist is like an amazing way into these corridors of power. But you're always power adjacent. You're never the source of power itself. And so over the years, I think I just accumulated all of these observations and this level of detail that I could then put into my characters.

And the character I probably had most fun writing was the character of Richard Take, who is a failed right-wing politician in the UK. and he loses his front bench job because he has caught on CCTV watching porn on his office computer. Now, was that character informed by some real life occurrences? That happened to some of my friends, actually. I mean, one of my friends. But anyway. Seriously?

Exactly that. Yeah, well, Jeff Tobin. You know, Jeff Tobin from CNN, he's a butt of mine. He was caught doing something nefarious while on a Zoom call. and he got suspended from his job. He actually lost one of his jobs. He's a great author. I mean, I don't know why he was doing that,

but, you know, we're weird. We're weird as a group of people. And why I have a love affair with authors is that particularly fiction writers, is that you guys do an amazing job of explaining the complexities of our inner mind. And that's something that I really give you a lot of credit for. You mentioned the party.

I have not read the party. I will confess that. I have to go back and read the party. But in my research, for this podcast, you were inspired by the Great Gatsby. And so I live in the town of East Egg. And so I live in the middle class area of East Egg, but the waterfront is where the Great Gatsby Mansion was, where Fitzgerald was inspired by the writing there.

And so as a kid in English very early on, we had to learn the Great Gatsby because of the heritage relationship to the town here on Long Island. but you know you brought back these characters okay what what was it about martin and ben that you wouldn't let go well i know the great gatsby is one of your favorite novels and might too and i can only ever aspire to write something as beautiful as that but i am very inspired and motivated by great works of classic literature so alongside the great gatsby i would put Brideshead Revisited and The Go Between by J.B. Hartley, the talented Mr. Ripley by Patricia Highsmith, but also the later film adaptation by Anthony Mangela. And what those stories have in

common is this interplay between two men, one of whom has been born into a world of privilege and the other who wants to make their way in that world. But never fully can be granted access to it, because the insiders just know that they don't fit right. And that's a theme that has fascinated me throughout my life, partly because of my own experiences of being a bit of an outsider, but someone who can masquerade as an insider. Are you a comfortable outsider or an uncomfortable outsider? What a great question.

I was uncomfortable and now I'm comfortable in it. Okay, see, that's an end. That is what a great answer. So I, you know, my, you know, Trump is an uncomfortable outsider, okay, Rudy Giuliani, uncomfortable outsider. I'm an outsider, but I'm self-profess very comfortable. I don't mind being an outsider. I don't mind not getting invited to the posh parties. It doesn't bother me at all. I actually think it's funny that there's a differentiation.

But these guys get very upset and they want to be a part of something that they're not. And that's where their anger manifests, you know, so this is another. That's such a good insight. You're so right. Well, Mr. But it's not my insight. It's your insight. I mean, this is basically what you displayed here in the book, you know. And did you see the movie Saltburn by the way?

Yes. Now, Saltburn came out after the party. So I want you to read the party, Anthony. Okay, I will. Let's see what you think of it. Now, Emerald is such a talent. And I think she was definitely braver in making certain decisions with Saltburn than I would have been when I was writing the party in 2017.

And so that's very interesting because I think she is an insider in terms of her background, but an outsider in terms of her outlook and really comfortable with that and brave within it. So I'm very interested to see what you make of the party having seen Sawburn. But you're so right to pick up on the fact that Martin and Ben are these kind of archetypes. So to add an extra layer of complexity, Martin is also secretly in love with Ben, his best friend. but he doesn't really understand his own sexuality for a really long time. And the reason I wanted to revisit them was because I wanted to revisit Martin, because I felt like in the party he never got his redemption.

He had a really difficult time and acted an unlikable and somewhat sociopathic ways. And yet, I still wanted the reader to root for him. And so with one of us, I wanted to see a character who was getting more comfortable with their identity and their sexuality because the world had caught up with them. And actually, during the course of this book, Martin does get his redemption story. But I also, to be frank, in the eight years since the party was published, so much had changed globally and so much had changed politically. I was eager to explore the new landscape through the lens of these familiar characters. So what would have happened to Ben Fitzmores post-Brexit, post-the-election of Trump? Well, it turns out that when

we meet him in one of us, he is on course to be the next British Prime Minister. In spite of the fact that he has never lived an ordinary day in his life, he's got no connection with the everyday man and woman. And yet there's something about the Brits in particular, I think, where we almost value that. We value that lack, that disconnect, because we've been so bred by the class system to believe that a leader looks a certain way. And in America, there is our In the United States, there's arguably a different issue, but it's also something that I explore in the book. I'm a huge reality TV fan. I love watching it as entertainment, but I also think we ignore it at one's own peril, because it has become this cultural and political force. What reality TV can do is it can rehabilitate

failed politicians at the click of a button, but it can also make someone who I might perceive of as rather unhinged dangerous, it can make someone like that seem familiar because you're so used to seeing that person on your TV screens in prime time. Yeah. So that they become someone whose danger is transmuted into the sort of lovable but crazy uncle you see at family weddings. And then they get elected. It's well said.

I mean, we're in the reality age. You know, I've been invited on a few of these shows. I did a few of these shows for that reason. I wanted to understand the cultural implications. I ended up going on the Special Forces show, which I think you have a different name for it in the UK, but I became very close to Jason Fox. He's become a personal mate of mine as Robin.

I got tortured on that show. I mean, they threw me out of a helicopter. They sunk me in a car. But I learned a lot about how the production is. I want to go to these two characters, though, because this is a question I've been dying to ask you about. So I talk about Ben and Martin for a second. Ben is the only person in this book where you're using the device of a first person narrator.

And it's interesting because Ben, very powerful guy, perhaps the most powerful person in the room, but we never really get inside his head. And so tell me about that. Was that intentional? Or was this something that you just manifested by accident? Tell me what you were thinking there. I also love that question. I really enjoy geekily getting into the weeds.

specific choices as writers. Martin and I had written in the first person in the party, and so it seemed natural to continue that on. And the reason I wanted to write him in the first person in one of us is because he's an acute observer of what's going on around him. It's also partly the reason I gave him the job that he has. He is a lecturer in art history at a mediocre university. But if you are used to looking at paintings and sculpture and architecture every day of your life and trying to work out on what they say to you, then you're also able to use that to observe the society that you inhabit. So that was a great resource for me as the writer, that often Martin could have this sort of a surbic take on something that I needed the reader

to understand. Then the other three characters, it's written in a sort of rotational chapter manner. Which makes it very interesting to read and it makes it impossible to put the book down because you want to grab into all that. We'll take that quote to, Anthony. Yeah, I'm very influenced by movies and particularly the movies of Robert Altman, and he obviously uses that structure a lot and shortcuts and other felts. So there are four main characters that you hear from, and you're right that only one of them is in the first person.

When it came to the other ones, I wanted to be able to have the role of a kind of omniscient narrator where I could say this is what Serena's thinking and these are the reasons why she's missing this point. And I do remember at one stage thinking, am I allowed to do this? Are you like to have one character in the first person, the others is the third person? I think I googled it and found other examples of books where you could actually do it. And that's how it came about really. It's a delicious way to write something because it definitely draws people in. You know, also, you know, what you did with Fliss, I thought was also very interesting, right? Because you have somebody narrating from beyond death.

Yes. And that's also, there's an element of a ghost story in here too. Why did you do that? Well, so Fliss is Ben Fitzmorest's sister. And the book opens and you learn that she has died in somewhat suspicious circumstances. And the first draft of one of us, I had Fliss as a completely separate chapter. All of her story was in one. long chapter at the beginning of the second half. And here I have to give credit to my amazing

agents, one of whom is Felicity Blunt, who we have in common, Anthony. And the other two in the US, Meredith Miller and Rebecca Gradinger, and they were the ones who said, we actually think that Fliss is at the heart of this story. And it's so true because at the heart of this story is the toxicity of power and the misogyny of power. And Fliss, without giving too much away, is the scapegoat for that. She's the victim of it. And my agent said, we think she should be seeded through the book earlier. And so I tried to work out a way of doing that that felt natural and congruent and powerful. And again, it was a risk. It's always a risk when you're narrating from beyond the grave, because you have to really convince the reader to go along with you. But for Fliss,

it seemed right. And there's something about her knowledge and her peace that is, that I think gives the book a whole different dimension. So her knowledge and peace from beyond the grave, because during her lifetime, she has so many struggles that in a way, it's good to hear from her from that perspective. I'm talking very vaguely because I don't want to give too much. Yeah, no, no. And I appreciate that. But I think it's important for our viewers and listeners to get the elements of how you're thinking because it'll intoxicate them and encourage them to go out and buy the book. I, I want to, I'm dying to ask you this question. It's a little abrupt, but I'm going to ask it anyway. The book is laced with loyalty. You get to, you do something for

the establishment. The establishment returns a favor. The book is laced with hypocrisy. You say something in public, but you're doing something completely different in private. This is sort of like my buddy, Mickey Downs with the HBO show industry. My buddy too. Yeah, yeah. I love Mickey, you know. But there's that element of that going on at the same time. But is it breaking down?

Okay, with the arrest of former ambassador Peter Manelson, the arrest of former Prince Andrew, Andrew Mountbatten, Windsor, is it breaking down? Is the structure where the citizens have had enough of this nonsense and they can see it more plaintively as a result of social media, etc., that they're punching hard at it? Is it breaking down, Elizabeth? Wow, that's a big one. I think that to a certain extent it's breaking down,

but I don't think there'll be a structural dissolution, specifically in Britain, because I've got more knowledge of that culture. I don't think the structures themselves will be abolished. So I don't think we're going to get rid of the royal family again because that didn't work well for us the first time. But I do think that what is breaking down, and this is what I firmly hope and believe, is that we are experiencing the death rattle of a kind of patriarchal toxicity that has corrupted power and, and,

corrupted our experience as both men and women. People of all genders are harmed by the kind of power that we now have in place. And so when we see the excesses and when the Epstein files are revealed and when people in power do horrible things to ever-increasing degrees of magnitude, the only way I can not lose hope is to believe that it's a kind of parasitic rage. It's the last gasp of this culture before it dies out. And I don't know why we have been chosen to live through this age of transition because it's a deeply challenging age to live through. But for some reason we have. And I think we should pay attention to that.

I firmly believe there is a reason that we are here when we are here. And so we all have our part to play. think in shaping what comes next. So I think within institutions, you're going to see a huge shift of personnel and hopefully a shift in character to go from where we are now, which is a post-shame culture, into a culture that is filled with integrity and respect for people wherever they come from. It's incredible, you know, because we're talking for the first time, but I actually see it the exact same way you do. It's a hopeful way to see things. But I do believe that generally, most people are good, generally. And I think that we, I think we realize something is really wrong now.

And it requires a reset. So I'm just on that, Anthony, I totally agree with you. And I also think most people are good. You know, one of the joys of doing the podcast that I do is that I get to interview so many people from so many different backgrounds and ask them very interesting. intimate questions sometimes, you know, about the worst times in their lives. And that's definitely my perception. And my perception is that when people act in despicable ways, often that's to do with the damage and the trauma that they've experienced. And so my role as a fiction writer is to explore that and to encourage all of us to have a kind of radical empathy, because that is what I believe will change the world. You know, and I, you know, so I've seen that in my own life,

You know, someday you and I will get together. We'll have a beer and we can talk a little bit about that. And our need for forgiveness is a very important element of this thing because it's not really necessarily for the forgiveness of others. It's for the cleansing of yourself. You know, sometimes the, you know, that's the number one thing so that you don't harbor things. Letting those things go is healthier for your own mindset. So I'm, fortunately, I could talk to you forever. I was coming to a close, but I've been dying to ask this question as well.

So, you know, you said on how to fail, half your guests don't know that you write novels, which I thought was very interesting, okay. But you also said, I'm going to quote you right now, that everything goes into the primordial soup of trying to understand human nature. Okay, so I want to ask this question, and you don't have to portray any confidences, but is there a specific conversation on the podcast that cracks something open for you? while you were writing this book. Oh my gosh. The level of research, I'm loving it, while I was writing this book. Or before it, or did you have an epiphany?

Yeah. And if you did, could you share it with us? Well, I actually had a conversation recently that really blew my mind and that is probably up there with some of my most favorite episodes ever. And it was with Jeanette McCurdy, the writer of the bestselling memoir. I'm glad my mom died. And she's just written her debut novel, half his age, which is just fantastic.

And she is so unbelievably eloquent when she dissects the dynamic that exists between men and women in today's society. And one of the things that she said to me was that anger is sometimes suppressed resentment. And that really detonated a mini-truth bomb. And the other one that is coming to mind is an interview I did with Monica Louis. And of course, given everything that she went through, and I remember what she went through in the late 90s, and I feel ashamed of myself that I inhaled the prevailing media narrative of the time, which was she's at fault. And rather than looking at her 49-year-old boss, who was the most powerful man in the Western world, and what abuse of power that was. And so

it was a recalibration, that conversation of my own workings out during that era. And she said, this amazing thing to me, which was that regret doesn't mean that you've made the wrong decision. And we were talking specifically about not having children. And that really released something in me because of course I regret not being a mother in the biological conventional sense. And yet it was the right path for me in this lifetime because it's given me so much. that whole experience, that sadness has given me so much. So much in terms of empathy and understanding and creative headspace and a community that understands me and who I feel seen by.

So those two are coming to mind. And then if I can be very greedy and just have one more, it would be a man called Mo Gaudat who came on How to Fail in 2019. He was one of my earliest guests. He used to work for Google. He was an incredible engineer and statistician. but he wasn't happy. And he spent 12 years of his life

researching the problematic issue of human happiness. And his work is so revolutionary. And genuinely, if you listen to that episode, it can teach you how to be happier. So I'm going to mangle it by trying to paraphrase it. So everyone should go and listen to that one. Those three, I think, have really shaped me as a person. Well, Liz, I love the answer.

I was dying to ask that question. Where do we find your podcast? I'm assuming it's where all the podcasts are, right? Spotify, Apple, et cetera. Exactly. Your favorite podcast platform, it will be there. How to Fail with Elizabeth Day. Well, I encourage people, Liz, I've listened to, I'm one of your subscribers now,

and I'm going to go back and listen to some of those old episodes. You know, you end the book on a note of hopefulness, you know, which is basically a story of our lives, isn't it? You know, it's a story about corruption and an abuse of power. Some institutional rot is in there. But I feel like it's an aspirational book. Am I wrong? No, you're not wrong.

And I love that you took that from it because, as we've discussed, we both have hope for human nature. And so I have hope for my characters too. And most of them go on a journey of learning more about themselves. And really, you know, I left it deliberately open-ended, because I think I'll want to revisit these characters one more time and do the final installment of a trilogy. But really the key to contentment is self-awareness.

And as you say, forgiving yourself for the things that you did and striving constantly to do better. There are some characters in one of us who end by the final page having done that. And there are others who do not. And so I'm interested to see what happens next for all of them. Well, listen, I loved it. The title of the book is one of us. We're at the last piece of this podcast, Elizabeth, where my producer and I came up with five words.

Okay. And so I'm going to ask you the word, whatever comes to your head. Give me a few sentences. Okay. If I say the word privilege to you, you say what? I say enclosed power that looks down rather than includes. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, pedantic patronizing.

If I say the word ambition, you say what? I say motivation and aspiration from a female lens, where for so long we have been taught as women that ambition is something to be ashamed of. And actually, I make no bones about the fact that I'm really ambitious because I want to connect with more people. So therefore I want to have a bigger platform. So those are the words that come up with. Okay.

Got the word power, Elizabeth. Power. Well, I'm actually thinking of Peloton at the moment because I'm about to do my 1,000 spin glass on Peloton and they have a power knob that increases resistance. Power, at the moment, sadly, alongside Peloton, I'm thinking of aged men with a strong but failing grip on what they believe is their due. And I really hope and believe that we are entering a phase of transition in terms of what power will end up meaning.

It's so interesting because when I hear the word power, I think of Lord Acton, and you and I both remember what he said. You know, power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely. Oh my gosh. Yes. So these aren't very quickfire from me. I'm sorry. I'll endeavor to do that.

No, no. I like the Peloton reaction. That's the whole point of me. me bringing this up. Failure. Say the word failure. Data acquisition. All failure teaches you something meaningful in the fullness of time.

And it could be that the only meaningful thing it teaches you is that you are strong enough to survive it. Yeah. Well, amen. In the inner of itself, that's an amazing thing that we're strong enough to survive. It's very, you know, I have five children. And I think it's very, you know, important to teach them to have space for failure. You know, one of the aspects of my life, which has actually weirdly benefited my children, Elizabeth, is I have failed so publicly in so many different ways.

And I have never hit it or tried to pretend otherwise. It actually is liberating from my children or gives them space. I have so many rich friends that try to pretend that their life went up in a perfect angle, 45 degrees. Everything was perfect about them. They made no mistakes. and I see that that casts this ridiculous shadow on their children. So, you know, failure is instructive in so many ways and I'm going to encourage more people to listen to your podcast.

Okay. I'm going to give you the last word, but I'm going to say two words. Okay. Then you give me the last word. Elizabeth Day. Connected. I love connection. It's my life force and purpose, I think, to connect with other people and to feel connected.

I say that also. And I know you're an introvert too, Anthony. I'm an introvert who has learned how to be extrovert. How do you know that I'm an introvert? Because I listen to your podcast. And you said it once and I was like, well, yeah, I totally relate to that. I need my own space to replenish my energy sources. But once they're replenished, I really do love and value human connection.

So interesting that you picked that up because my wife always says that people have no idea how bookworn and how introverted you actually are because, you know, I can be gregarious in public, but honestly, it's not my nature. You know, it's a, it's funny that you brought that up, you know. When I hear Elizabeth Day, let me tell you what I think, if you don't mind. Jeez. I think love of life and all things in it, which is the complexities, the trials and the tribulations, but also the virtues and the victories of life. Am I wrong? that's so beautiful. No, you're not wrong at all. It's so beautiful. We're, I mean, we're only here

for this crazy moment on this spinning rock. And I'm, and I'm not sure why, but I know that there's a purpose to it. And that makes me feel so alive. So that's such a beautiful thing for you to say. Thank you. Well, I look forward to listening to your podcast, reading your other books and reading your future books. But the title of this one, One of Us by Elizabeth Day, it's a brilliant novel and I wish you nothing but great success. Thank you so much for having me on. Okay. All the best to you. When a country's productivity cycle is broken, people feel it in their paychecks, their communities, their futures. What does this mean for individuals, communities, and businesses across the country? Join business leaders, policymakers, and influencers. For CG's national

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