Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - The Hidden Threats to Our Freedom with Tom Burgis

Episode Date: October 29, 2024

Tom Burgis, author of 'Cuckooland: Where the Rich Own the Truth', discusses the power of the wealthy to censor the press and shape reality. He explores the motivations behind the actions of the rich and the psychology of those in positions of power. Tom also delves into the topics of kleptocracy, dirty money, corruption, and the fragility of truth. He highlights the global impact of corruption and the need for scrutiny and transparency in society. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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from authors and historians to figures and entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe, wherever you get your podcast, and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the parts you're enjoying or how we can do better. You know, I can roll with the punches, so let me know. Anyways, let's get to it. The truth is fragile and constantly under threat. Corruption is a global issue and dirty money is everywhere.

My guest today, Tom Burgess, has written a book that covers those very topics. It reads like a thriller, but it's alarmingly real life. Let's go to the conversation. So joining us now on Open Book is Tom Burgess. He's an international bestselling author, and he's an award-winning investigative journalist. and what a timely book. The title of this book is Cuckoo Land where the rich own the truth. Tom, I mean, this is like probably perhaps the most timely book of the 2024 season, if you will. Myself, my producer, others in my office read the book with great fascination. So thank you for agreeing to come on the show.

Pleasure. You know, listen, you've had a phenomenal career. You're a gutsy guy. Tell us a little bit about your start and tell us a little bit about what motivated you to write the book. Well, it's very nice to be here talking with you. I started as a foreign correspondent. I worked in Latin America, and then I spent several years in Africa, but I was based in Johannesburg and then in Lagos covering West Africa. And more and more I found myself writing about corruption

and the power of the richest people in the world, which often go hand in hand. So I was looking at the big oil and mining companies. I was looking at the Chinese advance into Africa. I was looking at Russian oligarchs, mining businesses in Africa and so on. And I was seeing how corruption was the engine of these oil and mining industries that provide the feedstock of the global economy, if you like, from those places we think of as very poor, but some of the richest in the world in terms of those raw ingredients, there's raw materials. And what I started to discover then as a correspondent, and then after that, when I came back to London about a little over 10 years ago and started working as like an investigative reporter, was that there's this whole bit of the news business that's completely invisible to anyone. other than the journalists and the targets of the journalism. And it's especially acute in London,

but it affects journalism all over the world. And that is the ability of the rich to censor the press. So, no, I don't mean government censorship. I mean private sector, privatized censorship, if you like, right? Where you can be spending, that's really, really good reporters can be spending a year more, unearthing a story that really matters. Some of the ones that I did with some really good reporters

were about corruption in the world's poorest places, corruption that was helping to sustain monstrous dictatorships in pursuit of lucrative mineral deals. And time and time again, before publication, we would come up against incredibly well-equipped, well-funded law firms, PR agencies, sometimes surveillance, and we would never write about any of this. In some cases, this would mean that stories weren't published at all. Stories of massive public importance, were just left off the public record. In some cases, it meant that we would have to censor ourselves. It puts incredible pressure on journalists and newsrooms. And essentially, where I ended up with this idea, was with this idea, this fear, if you like, that actually,

if you are rich enough today, can you just decide what you want reality to be and impose that reality on the world? And then I happened to stumble across the one extraordinary story that became the central tale of Cuckooland. Yeah, I want to get into that story, but I've been dying to ask you this question. It's like, finish your book, what the hell is wrong with these rich people? I mean, you know, I guess I grew up in the, you know, look, I've made some measure of wealth, but I grew up in the middle class, the blue collar middle class. I thought we had a great life.

I don't understand why you have to be this rapacious where you have to rip through everything. You're going to be dead anyway. What the hell is wrong with these people? Go ahead. What's your insight there? You know, I think about that question a lot. And actually, there's a bigger question, which is, what's wrong with anyone in certain positions of power? I mean, before I was thinking about rich people, I was thinking about the people who order and carry out massacres in Nigeria where I used to live.

Or I was thinking about the oil ministers in Angola who had cut themselves on oil deals, siphoning off money that could have alleviated the poverty in the slums. And now this question, it is the central one. It's when I try to grapple with at the very end of the book, at the very end of Kukkaland, of like, what is going on? here? What is this motivation that makes people spend huge amounts of money to have a version of themselves broadcast into the world that they want? And now, I'll be fascinated to what you think. You know, you know, lots of rich people. But I actually think they're no different from the rest of us. I think that anyone wants to broadcast an idealized version of themselves. God knows millions of people spend enough time on Facebook doing exactly that. And any of us would want our

secrets kept secret. And any of us would want the things we've done wrong in the past buried away forever and no one be able to discuss them. The problem is that the system exists built around the legal system, really, that allows people who accrue that much wealth, an oligarch, the boss of a multinational corporation, whoever may be, to indulge those desires. That's the problem. I think that many, many of us, even, yeah, okay, I'm sure there are a virtuous few. I think if you gave Mandelaer a billion dollars, maybe he wouldn't have done that. But I'm not sure I, I, I'm not sure I can declare myself angelic enough not to feel the urge if I had that much wealth to do this, to crush scrutiny of myself. The problem is that we've allowed that system to develop that can be

used in that way. Yeah, well, listen, I'll express my humanity to you. I went to work in the White House all ego-related reasons. You know, I wanted to work for the President of the United States. And even though he was Kuku-Land, definition of him, it happens to be the title of your book, I did it anyway to suit my ego. So I am like everyone else. I'm very human and I have these sensitivities and these traits. Let's go to a gentleman by the name. Can I just actually, could I pick up something?

There was a real moment. I actually put it in my previous book, this moment, Cleptopia, it's about how dirty money is conquering the world. There was an extraordinary moment while you were in the White House that I think really illuminates this. And I don't want to get into the huge vast saga of Trump, Russia. but I did write in a previous book about how so much of Trump's wealth came from the former Soviet Union from really corrupt countries and that he sort of revived a business career by using his brand as a reality TV star to renting out that brand to people who wanted to be able to pump money into U.S. real estate, no questions asked.

Essentially, he was he was facilitating an alternative reality for people with often very dubious fortunes from the former Soviet Union. And then it's that, I think, that gives us such an insight into how he governed. And there was that, first of all, in the friends he made, you know, his friendliness with other ultra-rich people, I put Putin high in this list, who wanted to be able to dominate the truth. But then there's that incredible moment, isn't there, when you talk about the guy who sinks the three-foot putt. And the next day, the White House transcript says, this is a guy who sinks 30-foot putts. And it is, I thought that was such an electrifying kukulan moment. At the time I hadn't conceived of the book, but actually, looking at the way, looking at the

back, that's an extraordinary moment when you saw the basic rule break down, that we all have to have a certain respect that some things happened and some things didn't. And that was an extraordinary moment. And I think it's that kind of sense of entitlement to literally rewrite reality that I'm trying to describe. So it's interesting you bring that up because he does sink those puts. And I also said, just to add insult to injury, I said he threw a 40-yard spiral through a tire. And of course, people said I made that up. And so thankfully, there was a YouTube video of him doing it at the Buffalo Bill Stadium because I was present at the time that it happened. And thankfully, I was able to find the video. So people thought I was like blowing smoke

up as you know what. Okay. Now, I also saw him hit a foul shot in Madison Square Garden. So the problem is we dislike him because he's a sociopathic liar. But there are elements of his personality and his personage where he does do those things. You know, he is somebody that doesn't choke under pressure. And so I told the truth about those things. A lot of journalists ridiculed me, but thank God, there were tapes of actually what I was explaining. So, but I get the point. But what was extraordinary, wasn't it? It was that that even, nonetheless, even though you were describing, you know, remarkable, pretty cool things he was able to do, someone decided that he couldn't live with just having putted a three-foot putt. It had to be 30. And so the transcript

was changed. The sacrosanct White House transcript was changed. I didn't realize that the transcript was changed. But you know, you know what I'm, I'm sort of flattered by this time. I don't mind me saying this way. You know, that happened seven years ago. Do you know how many people remember that press conference? And so I, you know, because all I did was go to the press podium and be myself and answer the questions to the best of my capability. I certainly wasn't going to lie for them. You could read, you know, you could go over the, that that happened 10 years ago on the 21st, I'm sorry, seven years ago on the 21st of July, 2017. And I've watched it. All I did was try my best might give ability to tell the truth of what I saw.

Yeah, but take that transcript, man. I thought the transcript chain was an extraordinary moment. I'm sorry, I took you off on a time. I took you off on a memory that, Ben. I wanted something really good for the country. And I was speaking aspirationally for the country and aspirationally about him. him 10 short days after that. And I served 11 days. It was 10 days after I got fired. But he doesn't have it in him. He just does not have it in him. He doesn't have the public service or the public

mindedness in him to try to do well for other people. I think ultimately my life and my reflections on life, you want people in public service that actually like people. You know, you want people in public service that want to serve people. My grandmother had a great expression. I'll share it. with you, Tom, the best among us choose not to judge human frailty so harshly. And so we recognize in our humanity, we have frailty. And so therefore, let's not be overly judgmental of each other, but in fact try to help each other through whatever the problems we have. He is the antithesis of that, unfortunately. And I think, though, I think that's a beautiful expression, but I think, and this is, again, something I try to grapple with so much in Kuku land, is that we do have to be able to judge

each other's character. That's kind of the basis of a free society right now. To be able to make honest, yes, humane, but honest appraisals of each other's character and each other's fitness for office and responsibility. And that's what this system of essentially bullying or intimidation by force of wealth, fire lawyers and spies and so on. That's what that shuts down. And that is essentially the difference between a free society and an unfree one, whether or not we can scrutinize those who wield power effectively through the media or through any other means. So I want to I want to get into that if you don't mind because there's a fascinating character in your book. Hopefully I'm pronouncing his name right, Muhammad O'Mursey.

So I want people to read your book, and I don't want to give a spoiler alert about the book, but what a story this is. So give us the high notes of who he is, what he did, what the perpetration was, your response to it, and what does it tell you about the very wealthy? Well, Mohammed of Mercy, an intriguing man. I first heard about him, actually, when I was in the middle of being sued by some oligarchs myself, who didn't like my previous book and wanted it. I've never quite figured out how they want books destroyed,

how they've burned or pulped or whatever it might be, but anyway, taken off the shelves. And then I heard about this other case that was going on in the UK, the capital of privatised censorship. And it was that of a major donor to the Conservative Party, isn't at the moment, but tends to be in power here. and this major donor had employed the most ferocious of the London Reputation Management Law Firm's Carter Ruck. And the firm on his behalf was sending threatening letters to a former MP, Charlotte Leslie, saying that she had done something unforgivable and appalling.

What she had done is she'd written a memo that, among other things, had raised a few questions about where does this rich donor, Mohamed and Mersey's money come from? He was having none of this. He thought she was getting in the way of his big ambitions. And I thought, first of all, this is an extraordinary. ordinary example, isn't it, of wealth being deployed in the service of the narratives that the rich wish to prevail. But also, I thought, if you're prepared to go to such lengths to shut down even a little bit of scrutiny, I wonder what that past is. And that's where I set off.

And that road then took me, well, the war in Ukraine started, so I couldn't go back to Russia by then, but it took me through contacts back into the past of Putin, St. Petersburg, and then on to elsewhere in the former Soviet Union, other places where Mercy had made huge amounts of money, so he'd made money in Russia and then it was Kazakhstan, there was Uzbekistan. I went to Nepal, to Kathmandu to track down on the trail of a Nepali oligarch. Dan Amnesty had done business with all in the booming telecoms industry. And then there comes this moment where he'd made, he's made his money. And about 10 years ago, he transforms into something else. He transforms into a pillar of the British establishment. And he does this with the help of the nephew,

of the now queen. And there's this extraordinary sort of metamorphosis into a philadelphia. philanthropist, a donor to Oxford University, a donor to the conservative party, a man for whom no door in the land from the Prime Minister down is ever closed. And what I try to do is simply to tell his story and the truth of his story, how he made his money, how he wrote his own story, and how in the British political and social system, no one wants to ask questions about where the money came from. You know, it's fascinating because we, we interviewed the author of the Butler to the world and the whole story of London being a great center. Right. Oliver Bullough, great guy. Yeah, yeah, Oliver was a great guy. And so, you know, we interviewed him to talk about this

money laundering. And, you know, we also know from the global financial crisis that the drug lords around the world propped up the banking system with their illegal money sluicing through the marketplace and supposedly being laundered by the banks and offering some level of reserve protection. So is it just that we're flawed? Is it just that we're going to always have some seemy people in our societies that are doing these things and our governments or for whatever reason going to turn a blind eye? I think it's a constant struggle, isn't it? I think that the way political funding has gone, certainly in the U.S., and it's heading that way, I think, more and more in Europe. means that the incentives are all wrong.

So those who rule in our name are supposed to do that, right, rule in our name. And we can still scrutinize politicians pretty effectively in the press, whether the sort of traditional mainstream press or in newer forms. Try to scrutinize the people who fund politics. Try to scrutinize the people who pay for access, who get to shape the policies of government. And you're likely to get a terrifying legal letter. I think you're right.

To an extent there's always going to be people who are, for whatever reasons, a combination of self-importance and vanity and sometimes more sinister reasons, are trying to worm their way into politics. I would just say, though, that this is becoming like a big national security problem as well, in that the channels, I mean, in the US it's very familiar through Citizens United and so on. like the channels to influence the powerful are so unpoliced that it's, you know, it's been recognized in the UK that this is wide open to malign influence by whether it's Putin's regime or whichever other hostile state. And yet it's in the interest of the ruling class, if you like, it's in the interest of those who profit politically from hoovering up. This money and a question is asked to continue not to ask any questions. And it's completely antithetical to the democratic spirit, right? I think that's what's ultimately.

to terrify about it, is that it's insulating the most powerful people from the scrutiny that we really need to impose on them if we're going to have healthy societies. And that's what I found with the immersive story when I end up in a room, in a law firm, being screamed at by him. And I get this sense, you know, man to man of the rage, the wrath of someone who is so rich that they think that only their version of reality should be told. We have a person in our midst. He's worth about $200 billion. He's been $44 billion on Twitter. He renamed his X. He's got several hundred million followers. Obviously, he's opened up the spigot of the algorithm so that he can reach, you know, I don't know. I mean, you tell me, that's half the population of Europe. You've got 250 million followers, right? So, you know, two thirds of the United States. And he's politically active. And he's pretty supportive of Donald Trump at this point. And even though Donald Trump derogated him during the administration and said all kinds of mean and nasty things about him, he's in the Trump camp. What do you make of the psychology of all this?

I mean, you're right about it. So just share with me what you think of the psychology of these people in terms of how they're thinking about things, why they're doing what they're doing. You know, as an example, he says he's for free speech. He hired Don Lemon, a hard left guy who's openly gay. African-American, he had a bad interview with him, he fired him summarily. So what do you, what do you think of all this? I think we touched on this earlier when we said that, I think any of us, you know, there's this great expression. I think I know it from William Burroughs, actually. It says, wouldn't you? I think he's talking about heroin addiction, but the, anyone

given enough power is going to indulge their worst impulses. And this is the problem, the gradually over several decades, the winnowing away of the constraints on the powerful, right, those whose power comes from wealth. What's the psychology at play? Well, I was able to see a mercy very close up for a long time, sometimes in person, sometimes by speaking to people who knew him. And I think part of it is a desire for an age-old desire for status, for praise, for recognition, for being seen as the good guy. Nobody wants to be the nobody. I went back to a passage in Orwell recently when he talks, he writes fascinatingly about, you know, the, what he calls the lords of property and their hired liars and how, you know, on any side of any war, in any side of

partisan politics, you're going to find people who are simply trying to amass personal influence. And maybe partly, Orwell said, it's to not be forgotten. You know, you mentioned at the beginning about, you know, you can't take any of this with you. But I think, in a sense, it's a hedge against death, isn't it? There's a desperate desire not to be one of the, you know, the almost everybody his name will be completely lost to history. Yeah, well, this is the whole thing with the art world. You know, the art is immortal, or at least perception-wise, Da Vinci's paintings, we can see them from 500 years ago, and they're still with us his expression of his genius.

And so people want to capture that and put it on their walls. They think it's going to create more permanence. But these are works of art, aren't we? We're talking about work, we're talking about constructed. We're not talking about real people, right? We're talking about the image that they, and their eyes all I would say, Hyatt Liars Crate. And that almost is a work of art.

They want to be hanging on lots of people's walls after they're gone. I think maybe fundamentally there's something like that going on. Yeah. Yeah. Your other brilliant book is called Kleptopia and The Looting Machine. Tell us a little bit about that book as well. I have to confess, I haven't read that, but I just purchased it and I look forward to reading it. So I started with the lithium machine is I came back from Africa, obsessed with, I mentioned

earlier, obsessed with one massacre that had taken place in Nigeria that I had covered and, you know, was a nightmare. And I tried to understand how the huge forces of corruption and behind that of the global oil industry that dominates Nigeria, how you get from those huge forces down to that one Burned Village. And after that, I started looking more at kind of, that was the luteing machine really, was an account of oil and mining and how it begets corruption and conflict in Africa, the modern plunder of Africa. And then I started to look at that more globally, this idea that corrupt money, dirty money, money that is made by holding power one way or another, that's a public trust and corruptly monetizing that for personal gain. So that, you know,

the king of that is Putin, but there's probably. plenty of characters doing that in New York and London too. And that was kleptopia, you know, how dirty money is conquering the world. And that's several stories all woven together, including some of the rise of Donald Trump and the money he absorbed from the former Soviet Union. And the idea there is to show that the biggest and most terrifying force against freedom today is these international networks of kleptocrats, right, of those who rule from corruption and particular networks can combine a Zimbabwean dictator, a Kazakh oligarch and a Wall Street hedge fund. And they are all privatising power, if you like it.

And that's kleptopia. That began with a chance meeting with an extraordinary mischievous man called Nigel, who had worked inside a Swiss bank and had secretly copied lots of the documents and hidden them in little red boxes in his flat. And that led me on this extraordinary journey through the, world of dirty money. And in a way, that gets you to Kukuland, I think, because it was through this process I was just seeing again and again the extent to which, unbeknown to any readers, unbeknown to the readers of newspapers and books and the listeners of podcasts, there's this huge unseen force

deciding what we can and can't know. It's fascinating. So we're at a point in our podcast. We'd like to make these about 30 or so minutes. We've called five words from your book. And so I'm going to read the words to you, this little name association. You tell me what you think of when I say this to you. Okay.

So let's start with the word kleptocracy. When I say that word, you think of what? This is an interesting game. I think that a lot of people instantly go to the big yacht, right? The fancy yacht of the south of France. And actually, what I'm picturing is a woman I once spoke to in Kazakhstan. I snuck into a village in Kazakhstan where there had been a massacre. And the survivors of the peaceful protest that had been shot up,

they were tortured so that they would give the version of reality that the kleptocrat wanted, Nazarbayev, the ruling kleptocrat of Kazakhstan. He wanted reality to be the opposite of what it had been. He wanted the protesters to have been responsible for the massacre, not his security forces. And I won't go into now the techniques have tortured that were used, but they were hideous, hellish. And that's what I think of of kleptocracy is that people will steal anything and everything down to stealing people's innermost dignity. All right. I love that. That's why I asked the question. How about dirty money? I say the words, dirty money. You say what?

Everywhere. Absolutely everywhere. You're sitting in New York, right? I live in New York, yeah, I'm in New York. Yeah, I mean, the biggest, I mean, we think of dirty money, we think of Putin and his like solid gold toilet. And well, we might think of a Nigerian governor or, and certainly we should think of London as a huge engine of dirty money. But possibly the biggest sink for dirty money ever is New York real estate. All right. So money and dirtiness is everywhere.

I say the word corruption, also everywhere. where, but what else would you say about corruption? Trust. I'd say trust is what is the opposite of corruption. And it's often found to define, and we can get very legalistic about it. But corruption is essentially when a group of people have bestowed their trust on someone, could be a president, could be a school principal. And that trust is betrayed for personal gain.

And we're breaking the most basic bonds of human society. And we shouldn't get too caught up in the huge, complexity of front companies and Swiss bank accounts and so on. That's ultimately what we're talking about. That's why it's the huge spread of it since the end of the Cold War is so dangerous because it eats away at that. And that's the heart of what we have and what we are, right? You imagine a world where that trust had finally, fatally fallen apart. No question. How about I say the word rich? You say what? It doesn't make you happy necessarily. I mean, you were talking earlier about your agree. I think

I think maybe more, you know, sometimes, I actually, it takes me back to, it's kind of often more money more problems, right? I remember when I was living in Nigeria and I would meet the children of magnificently corrupt politicians. Nothing inherently Nigerian about corruption. It's just a system run on oil gets really corrupt, doesn't matter where you do it. And these kids were rich, were really, really rich. They had everything you could want. And I've seen Kazakh kids like this, too. I'm talking sort of teenagers. But the time. psychological tension of having to

occupy the lie that your wealth is legitimate and knowing if you've got any sense by your mid-teen, that your father stole and mother stole everything that you have. And as you walk down the streets, you can see open sewers and kids dying for lack of basic medicine.

That, I've known a few people through my work in that situation and I really pity them, actually. You know, it's so fascinating, and I'll tell this story briefly. My first job as a lawyer, I went to law school, and I was in between my first and second year, and I was working for a lawyer, and he was a rich guy. And I was in his backyard at a swimming pool, and he was in his 60s, which I am now. And he said, oh, I don't really, you know, this is ridiculous. I spent all my time and energy to make all this stuff. All I really want to do is have a bowl of pasta and watch television. And then I laughed at him, and I derided him, and I said, said, oh, that's because you're rich. You know, I don't have any money. And so you're saying that now, but, you know, that's because you're rich. And then he cursed me, Tom Burgess. He cursed me. It's someday you're going to have money. And you're going to think of what I just said,

and you're going to know what I said was true. And is it? And yes, it is true. Yes, it is. The more simple you are, the less attachments you have to material goods, the happier you are. there's a great paradox to this. There's a great irony to this. I'm not talking about having enough money to have some financial security and some safety and potentially help you with your health and things like that. But I'm talking about the trappings of wealth don't necessarily make you happy. I'm fighting your spots on there.

Yeah. All right. Last one. You ready? I'm going to say the word truth. You say what? Fragile. So fragile.

So this is the thing that I often find. I'm not a writer of the start. I saw you had Steve Collon recently. So there's someone who, my God, can think all the way through to the end. I often find that I have my best ideas about my books just shortly after they're published, which can be frustrating. And sometimes that ends up being the germ of the next one. But I'm really struck by how fragile the truth is. And how actually bizarre this idea is.

It comes back to what you're saying earlier about Elon Musk. the idea that there are facts out there that are independent, they don't care what we want them to be, they are what they are. In fact, they're completely and utterly indifferent to us, as the universe surely is. And the idea that we would go and seek those facts, not knowing whether they're going to be for our benefit or not, actually, not knowing whether this is real, there's a real freedom in that, I find, But also that idea, like the scientific method, I guess, you'd call it the scientific principle.

There are objective facts. We'll never quite get there because there will always be some aspect of it beyond our understanding, or certainly beyond our current understanding. But that's the idea. That's what animates good science and good journalism and just good curiosity in life. That is a beautiful idea, but it's so fragile because by definition it's in no one's interest. So as you have, you know, I thought you spoke really brilliantly about Musk earlier on what he's doing. as our tools of information become vehicles for the interest of their owners more and more.

And as I tried to write in Kuku land, as the rich or those with enough money can shut down certain areas of public interest inquiry, that idea is more and more imperiled. I was incredibly struck recently by Chinese efforts to have respected scientific journals retract COVID research. I thought that was a huge moment. There's good New York Times reporting on that, where this little pressure space we have that we can call the truth or our best attempt at it is incredibly fragile. That's what Kukulan tries to reach towards. And I can't think really of a more important subject at the moment.

Well, listen, you know, we're in a post-truth society, obviously, and so you're writing brilliantly about it. The title of the book is Kukuland, where the rich own the truth. It's written by Tom Burgess, and it is a great honor for me to have you on my podcast, and I know you'll be writing another book. I want you to come back. Oh, I'd love to. And the honor is entirely mine. Thanks for having me. So Tom wrote a book that's like a real-life thriller, and his point being that the truth is very fragile. We've done a job on the truth in the 15, 16 years since the introduction of all this prolific social media. So what's happened is people are dumping into these

social media outlets, conspiracy theories, mistruths, factually incorrect information, and now it's very hard to discern what's true anymore. I know for myself, when I'm scrolling or watching TV, someone says something, I'm like, geez, I really wonder if that's true. But the point is, if you can control the medium and you can control the narrative, you have a big sway and a big influence over people. This is why Tom's book, Kukuland is so important, because very rich people understand it. There is a reason why Elon Musk spent $44 billion on Twitter. And of course, he has opened the floodgate for his own Twitter feed. He's got probably 200 plus million followers. And it has a very powerful influence on our society. So if you read Tom's book, it's almost like a

defensive measure. It'll keep your eyes and ears open to some of the skepticism around the truth. All right, you got to come on the podcast. Are you ready, ma? Yeah, go ahead. All right. Come on. Okay, so Ma, I had a guy on this week. His name is Tom Burgess. He was talking about all the lying in politics. So you know there's a lot of lying in politics, but why do they get away with it, Ma?

Why do you think the politicians get away with the lies? Because someone has to lead the country, and that's what they are. They're politics. Right. So people recognize that they're going to lie. That's part of the job, basically, right? Yeah, it's part of it. Yeah.

Okay. Who's a better liar, Ma'am? Kamala Harris or Donald Trump? I think Donald Trump knows where it's at as far as when he tells a lie. His face gets redder. Okay. So you notice when he's telling a lie the orange becomes more orangey. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, absolutely. Other ones sometimes I think hesitates a little bit too much, but she knows where it's at, but she doesn't get it out quick enough. Okay, so she's a little bit more hesitant, right? Donald Trump is a more confident liar, right? Or no? Yeah, uh-huh. Okay. Yeah, definitely. So you think, you think... But he's been around the block and she hasn't really been around the block because Biden was a kind so, but he wasn't, I don't think he was a very good president. Okay, so yeah, you're in that camp, I know that. So let me ask you this question. You think we'll ever have a situation where these people don't lie or they're always going to be lying? That's part of the job. It's part of the demeanor event, like the whole thing. Yeah. Part of the job.

Yeah, but some will lie more than others. Okay. All right. I had another... Can I say something on a podcast? Yeah, yeah, you can say. Go ahead. Say whatever you want. Mr. Ryan Liza exposed you as a friend of the family.

He's such an Italian, Mark. You to get away from the... Ryan Liza's side. He must be in that category because he's all over the newspapers. All right. As a real frigging freak. Okay, I know you love that type of karma, ma, but you notice people have talked to me about... I don't talk about it.

I don't care, Ma. I have moved on, but I love, and just for viewers and listeners out there, my mother is the type of Italian where if she stops liking you, and let's say you're part of the family, she cuts your head out of the picture, okay? So the picture could still be, the picture could still be in the living room, but your head is chopped out of the picture, okay? That's the old school Italian way. Am I right, ma'am?

Totally right. I'm going to be 88 years old in three months and kids. It all worked out, ma. I know you love the demise of that chuch, but it's all good. All right. Love you, Ma. All right. Love you very much, baby.

All right. All right. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was open book. Thank you for listening. If you like what you hear, tell your friends, and make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. While you're there, please leave us a rating or review. If you want to connect with me or chat more about the discussions, it's at Scaramucci

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