Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - The Psychic Who Solved Murders The FBI Couldn’t - John Edward & Robert Hilland

Episode Date: October 16, 2025

Robert Hilland is a former police officer and FBI Special Agent who worked in law enforcement for 30 years. He worked a number of high-profile cases including the investigation of serial killer John Smith. John Edward is a psychic medium, lecturer, and multiple New York Times bestselling author who has connected people to Other Side energies for nearly four decades. In 2000, Edward’s syndicated Syfy show, Crossing Over with John Edward, launched the now-popular television psychic genre, followed by John Edward Cross Country in 2006 on the WE network. Get their wonderful NYT bestselling book Chasing Evil: Shocking Crimes, Supernatural Forces, and an FBI Agent’s Search for Hope and Justice here: https://amzn.to/3W3Z2W3 Anthony Scaramucci is the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge, a global alternative investment firm, and founder and chairman of SALT, a global thought leadership forum and venture studio. He is the host of the podcast Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci. A graduate of Tufts University and Harvard Law School, he lives in Manhasset, Long Island. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming, Ontario. We're joined by Psychic Medium John, Edward and FBI agent Bob Hilland to talk about their new book, Chasing Evil. John and Bob share the story of their unlikely partnership, how a skeptic and a medium came together to work on cold cases, including the chilling John Smith murders. We explore the skepticism, the trust that developed, and the emotional toll of their work, as well as the spiritual side, messages from beyond and the hope that justice can transcend the physical

world. So listen, lots to unpack here. I know John Edward, very long period of time, fellow Long Islander, consider him a personal friend. And I'm a believer in John Edward. And so I know there's a lot of skeptics out there. You never met a skeptic like Bob Hillen, though. My God. I mean, this guy, I don't know. You'll watch this interview. And the first thing you say to you say, how the hell is this guy believe in John Edwards' capability to help him solve a murder? But then you listen to the story, and the story is truly fascinating. It reveals things about a our personalities, trust, spirituality, the seeking of justice, which I think most of us, or almost all of us as human beings, really wants. But what I love most about this book and what I love about John Edward

himself, he likes helping people, but he also likes challenging our ideas about what's possible. Let's get into it. Welcome to Open Book. I am your host, Anthony Scaramucci. Joining us now is a very dear friend of mine and a dear friend of his. Okay, so this is John Edward, the internationally acclaimed psychic medium. And Robert Hiller, who's a former FBI special agent, title of the book, which is now a New York Times bestseller, international bestseller, chasing evil, shocking crime, supernatural forces, and an FBI's agent's search for hope and justice. So first of all, the book is absolutely amazing. It reads in so many ways like a crime thriller. There's so many interesting stories in the book. And there's so many different things that you guys do to

solve these crimes. But guys, let's just start right there. Let's start about your relationship, because John Edward, who was a very close friend of mine, told me that you weren't buying it, Bob Hillen. You were not buying the John Edward that I know, which has this extra natural sense for picking up things. So can we start there, Bob? Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, I mean, I think you nailed it. I heard him on the radio. Back then, it was a radio station in New York City. It was very popular. He came on, would do what he does and take calls from people and claim that he had the ability to connect with their past loved ones. And I thought it was stealing this. I thought it was ridiculous. And I would change the radio station. This happened two or three times. And then finally

it prompted me to call his office, right? I mean, I worked at the time in the FBI, New York field office on a cold case homicide squad. We had many, many cases. And I had many cases. And so I brought a particular case to him in which all the leads, witnesses, and suspects had been exhausted. And I figured he would either reveal himself as a con or he would prove himself to be of value in the latter happen. Okay. So set the scene for us, Mr. John Edward. You're getting a call from now the FBI. And we've got, unfortunately, murders, people doing very evil things to each other. So this is where I say I have to give credit to where credits do. And my assistant at the time gave me a sense of urgency with this. And Bob and I only discovered while we were promoting this book what that sense of urgency actually was. I made a joke at one of our events. And I was like, this guy kept calling my office. I had no choice but to say, you know, yes. And, you know, I said it just jokingly. And Bob being Bob went, I called you once. So after that moment, I was like, you only called me once. And he goes, I only called you once. this was definitely meant to be. My assistant got him in. And I treated it like I would treat any other

client that's coming to me, you know, for whatever the reasons they're coming to me. I never know why someone's coming to me. I didn't know why Bob was coming. He came with a police officer adjacent to a case that he, you know, was coming to me with. And we, I did my thing. He brought me evidence bags that were connected to the case. There's something called psychometry that when I work with somebody I can hold on to like an object of theirs and pick up energy from those objects. And sometimes they use it as a tool to connect with my client. In this case, I was using it as a tool to connect with the case. Okay, so Bob, I got to ask you, I was dying to ask you this since I finished the book.

It's 1998. You're shutting off the radio, Bob. Right, right. John Edwards is coming on. Click. The radio goes off. Yeah. What catalyzes you, sir, to show up with the evidence.

evidence back? Well, to be honest, it bothered me, right? My initial impression was he was taking advantage of people who were going through the grieving process. And I had a visceral response to it. And, you know, I had to figure this out myself. So I was prompted by my own curiosity, partly. And like I said, he was either going to reveal himself or he was going to be a value.

And that was the premise by which I met him. I didn't know what to expect and that they profoundly changed the trajectory of my career and potentially my life. Okay, but John said something to you that I'm going to say to you about John. He said that your relationship with him was meant to be. Did you just not say that? I did. And I believe my relationship with John was also meant to be.

I believe that someone from the other side. Yeah. I'm getting goosebumps now as I say this, put me in touch with John. And John and I reached out to each other through direct messaging, I think, on X or Twitter, and then we ended up having dinner, and then we realized, wait a minute, well, we grew up very similarly. We're way more in common spiritually than you would first think in the first glance. Right. And do you feel that way now, sir, as well?

Well, now, looking back, I think that's without question. The circumstances of brought us together. And then what unfolded over those next almost 30 years now, it cannot be. be denied. He has brought in my perspective on everything from my faith to my spirituality to my understanding of why we're here. So I think for me personally and professionally, this was destined to happen. This is why the book is so terrific. I want to go to the John Smith murders, which is, you know, basically the heart of the book, you know, for audiences, could you remind us of those murders, sir? And then, John, take us through the chilling first meeting when you picked

up, I think it was Fran's classes. I think that was what happened. But take a sur to the murders. What happened, Bob, and the murders? And then, John, you tell us what happened when you grabbed the classes. Yeah, so in October of 1991, a man by the name of John Smith came into a police department of Jersey where I happened to be a young cop at the time, and he reported his wife, Betty Fran missing. The circumstances surrounding her disappearance strongly indicated something nefarious happened to her, likely at his hands. But ultimately, there was no body recover, lack of physical evidence. And as the investigators back then were going through that investigation, they learned that this same guy was married to another woman who disappeared the same way in 1974 in Ohio.

So now all the law enforcement forces joined together to try to bring this case to fruition. There were agencies from Ohio, New Jersey, Connecticut, Florida. There were a lot of chefs in the soup, and unfortunately, it never materialized, and it went cold. Cases go cold for reason. It's not because the investigators were necessarily incompetent. They weren't. They ran everything in the ground. There was nothing there. I knew the case because I was a young cop there.

And now fast forward in the 97. I'm working in the FBI New York office on this homicide squad. I bump into the detective. I say, well, we'll take a look at it. And that was the case that I brought to John on that day. All right. So now we've got the evidence, John. You called it psychometric, I guess, right?

So you grab. Psychometry. Yeah, so there's two different types of psychometry. There's objective psychometry and subjective psychometry. If I'm sitting with you and I want to quickly tune into your energy, I might hold on to your watch or to your ring, and that gives me like the key to unlock your energy. So in this case, I was doing objective psychometry based on the subject that once owned it.

And I wasn't trying to make a connection with Betty Fran. I was trying to make a connection with the energy of the case. And I believe Bob will correct me, but I think there were like five legit evidence bags that he brought. and then he brought four like controls. He had brought four bags that had articles from people in his office, right? Yeah, so his assistant told me to bring some artifacts or belongings of whoever this person was that I was looking for. In this case, it was Fran.

So that day I went around my office to four different women. I asked, you know, hey, Susie, can I borrow your necklace, Sally? So I got four control items and I put them among the items that he read that day. And then when I, you know, started doing my thing, when I picked up, whether it would be France glasses, whatever, I started to connect with the energy of what was going on. And just like if I was working with you or anybody else for a regular, regular reading, whatever I see here and feel, I start to describe. But in this case, I knew he was coming to me for something that had like a criminal, you know, backdrop. So that was the bias that I kind of brought to it. So I was giving him whatever it was that I was seeing, hearing and feeling. subsequently he said you know i've heard you on the radio if i put you on the phone with the victim's family is that going to be helpful it could be sure let's try so he put me on the phone with fran's daughter and i did not get anything um from fran's daughter and in hindsight i think it's because i already had the bias now of the information that was in front of me so like i kind of maybe got in

my own way even if she was attempting to come through um but i wound up making a connection with bob and I made a connection with his family, bringing information that he could validate in the room and then subsequently information that he had to validate by talking to family members when he left. I mean, it's incredible. Okay, so now you, now you, he's tuning you into his frequency. Yeah. And now you have to act on it, sir. So go ahead. What are the steps that you take? Well, in that very first meaning, the information was so specific and singular. He asked us whose name was Michael. Michael happened to be the younger brother of John Smith. John said,

Michael holds the key to the information you're seeking. And that aligned with some of the comments that I had learned from detectives earlier that they had suspicions about Lyca, but John emphatically said, hey, Michael holds the information you're seeking. But moreover, John also, he was rather perplexed and he didn't understand why we're there. He described a body on the sign of a road. He described in detail. He said there were a line of police cars.

He described the box. He described the newspaper article. And I had no idea, nor the detective at the time, what he was referring to. And then he had this realization. He said, oh, this man that you're looking at, he has killed other women. You just haven't made the connection yet. So that was new to me. But to your question, Anthony, ultimately, we focused efforts on, oh, by the way, you know, one thing we've never talked about on another podcast, John, is at the time I came to speak to you, we didn't know where John Smith was because he had run off the radio.

or around, I think it was 96 or 7, the last time anybody had eyes on him, he evaporated. And that day you told us he's west like he's in California. So I focused efforts. Number one, we had to identify his location, get his patterned life down, what's going on his life, but also try to figure out how we get Michael to do the right thing. And that's what we did. So we put together a strategy. Michael came forward, explained what happened.

And as a result of what Michael told us, we focused efforts on finding this spots. and which contained the remains of John Smith's first wipe by the name of Janus. And once we connected those dots, the case came together. He was charged and convicted for that case. Okay. So, I mean, so I want to talk about because you said something about energy and spirituality. And you said, Bob, that John Edward has changed your energy, spirituality, connection to your faith. And so tell us how.

Because this is, I mean, when I, first of all, I knew all that about John Edward before I read the book, okay, because he connected with me in a way that is beyond the temporal. So I already got that. But you were a bigger skeptic, frankly, than me, I think. So go ahead. Tell me about the bomb that went off when you're at. Well, it was, it felt like cracks in the dam for me, right? That's the best analogy I can give you. So to your question, how does it, has it changed me?

I think when we're young, you know, you see the world. rather black and white. And I was one of those guys that it was easy for me to put people in categories. And my faith, I grew up in church and, you know, God is on mission. He sees everything. You follow the rules. You read the Bible. You do right. And you do right and you follow it. You're going to go upstairs. If not, you're going to go to a bad place. That was my worldly perspective on God and Jesus and faith. And John helped me to understand while all those things are true, there is more to understand than just that. And I think I, I think, although I did have faith and strongly believe that this life is the beginning of what's to come,

my experience with John over those 30 years galvanized that for me. I have no doubt, no question that this is the opening act for what's to come, no doubt about this. So, John, you've told me this story, and I want you to regala to my viewers and listeners, if you don't mind. Sure. So you got raised by your aunts and your mom. Yep. And some of your dead relatives you were in contact with it, like the age 11, 12, 13, how old were you? So in hindsight, my journey began in this world at the age of 15. My mom and dad had divorced when I was 12. I moved into my grandmother's house. My mom was one of 11. So, you know, we had lots of people in grandma's house. So I had a lot of matriarch energy. I had my grandmother, my mother. And like I said, you know, a whole bunch of aunts that kind of were like in that energy.

for me. My dad being a New York City police officer, a career military guy, not a big fan of the whole esoteric metaphysical. Pretty black and white. Didn't want me around the subject matter, which was fine up until I moved it to my grandmother's house. And in hindsight, after I started developing at 15, 16, 17, I started like, you know, going over my past and thinking about certain things that I was told I had a vivid imagination and that my dreams were like movies when I recounted them and some of the experiences in school that I had had were all now I could reframe them from a metaphysical standpoint where before I just thought that was a coincidence or that was funny or you know that teacher accused me of of lying when it wasn't wasn't so and small little things I can now go back and redefine psychically

and one of them was seeing my grandfather who I had never met in this lifetime he had appeared to me a number of times as a kid, and I used to jokingly refer to him when I dreamt of him as my little old man friend. So my mom and my grandmother would be like, hey, have you heard from your little old man friend? And I went, no, not in a while. So this is for you, sir. Bob, tell me the most surreal, most improbable moment. You've worked together for 25 years. You've solved, I mean, that was a huge case, but you saw many other cases large and small. But what's the most, what's the most? What's the most surreal or improbable moment with John? Can I,

wait, can I go first? Wait, can I go first? Yeah, all right, let John go first. I don't think it has to do with me. I think the most surreal has to do with Bob directly, which to me is the coolest part of our connection, and that would be the perfume. Oh, oh, yeah. So what he's referring to is,

you know, when you hang around with John for a while, you start to experience things, and sometimes you think you're losing your mind. At least I did, right? And I will forever be a skeptic, right? Even since the release of the book, things happen, and I challenge him on it. But the point of the story is,

while I was pursuing trying to find Fran, after John Smith was convicted, I searched extensively and exhaustively for her at righteous locations. And one night in particular, this incredibly strong smell of perfume. was overwhelming. I had another agent with me. And it was almost like, if you ever been around an older woman who wears too much perfume, it was like that. It took your breath away. Fast forward the story. It went away after we walked past this particular location, and we both

thought that was odd. I'm trying to do the math in my head, and I call her family, and I learned that Fran wore perfume. She was a secret smoker, so to cover up to smell of cigarettes, she would wear perfume and mint and stuff like that. And I would ask, was there a kind of perfume she would wear it? Only one, it was called opium. And anyway, one night I'm in this hotel room and I was watching Monday Night Football and it's, I know people in the haters are going to say, Bob has lost his mind what I'm about to tell you is true. And I don't think we've talked about this on a podcast. It's in the book. But I just got done saying, good night to my wife and my kids, I'm in this hotel room. And you know that moment where you're not asleep yet, but you're not aware.

you're like in between. Yeah, sure. It felt like somebody just took their fingers and went through my head and it started me so much that I jumped up in bed and my heart was pounding like somebody just touched me and the inside of my hotel room was filled with this incredible smell of perfume. And I was scared, right? I thought, okay, I'm losing my mind now and I, you know, I don't have perfume, I've got after shave and I'm looking.

I go out in the hallway to the hotel. It's not there. I come back in and there it is. And then over the course of those years, that perfume smell would come up at certain points. And I didn't know what to make of it. And John would reassure me that's Fran letting you know that she's there, she's around. But the other point I would make to you, to your question, for me, one of the most surreal moments was the case that we opened the book up with with this missing boy, this little five-year-old boy. Out of all the cases we worked, that night, John was on fire.

He said, you must go out there now. And it's midnight. And I'm going to go to the parents and his boy and not get jammed up for this. But he was insistent. You walked right over him. You walked right over him. And it felt like that game when you're a kid, you're getting warmer, you're getting colder. And he gave me things to look for.

And because of his direction, we found this little boy. So that was one of them. But you're right. The perfume thing was, I was kind of embarrassed to tell that story. But that happened. And I can't make, to this day, I can't make sense of that. And what I love about the story, Anthony, is that Bob's Bob, right?

So he's Bob with me, but he's Bob with himself. I mean, he's Bob, right? As soon as you guys came into this Zoom call, I was like, all right, I get Bob's aura here. Bob is a no bullshit guy, man. Bob is like, I don't believe any of this shit, which is exactly why he got stuck with you. You understand what I'm saying, to light him up. I actually like to refer him as the B-O-B. Like, I feel like he's his own agency.

He's the B-O-B. And he did his own thing to himself. he went to a department store and wanted to see if the smell he was smelling was actually opium and put himself through a test. He had the person behind the counter put three or four perfumes out and he went through the different smells without seeing which one it was to see if he could smell the perfume that he smelled a number of times before, which was indeed opium. And it was right, Bob?

Yeah, I went, as he said, it was around the holidays and this young girl, she thought I was buying perfume and she put these out and I said, do you have this perfume? She said, yeah. And I said, there's other ones that are similar. She says, yeah, I said, well, pick three or four. We did. She thought I was, I don't know, playing a game or something. And the first two didn't smell like I remember.

But as soon as I lifted that little paper strip to my nose, all the hair is on my arm stood up. It was the same perfume might smell. There was no doubt about it. See, when I read the book in, I don't know if other people would say this to you, but I felt emotionally drained in the book. Yeah. because you've got suspense going on.

You're finding people. You're solving murders. You're resolving cold cases. But I guess the question I had, and I wrote this down in the margin of the book, were there emotionally difficult moments for the both of you going through these cases? And if so, what was that like? I'll let John take your first. So I'm going to give you two answers, Anthony.

First of all, when I do the work that I do, I'm in a zone of being somewhat sterile and surgical of delivering information. And 95% of the time, if not 99% of the time, I'm going to stay in that moment and then be able to detach. The understanding from an esoteric metaphysical standpoint is the moon astrologically represents your emotion. My moon is in the sign of Aquarius. Aquarians have the ability to detach and be somewhat like spot. from Star Trek, like void of emotion. Like we can kind of switch that switch off and then just focus on the data, the information, the experience.

Bob has his son sign in the sign of Aquarius. So it's like the opposite luminary. Mind's moon, his son, same ability. He could be sterile. He could be investigatory. He could be surgical. He's going to be precise. And he's going to look at evidence and facts in an objective way.

I could say for me, in all of the cases that we worked on, the only one that really rocked me to my core was the boy, was Noah. But it resolved favorably. That's the one that resolved favorably, though, right? As favorably with a negative outcome, as you can say. But, yeah, he unfortunately, you know, is the longer with us. But that experience was, from a parental standpoint, the one that I think gave me the emotional urgency as a dad.

What about you? Yeah, I would echo what John said, right? I think, and you probably know from your own experience, when you're doing your job, you're doing your job, right? You focus on the objective, on the goal, and you kind of compartmentalize the bad things, right? It doesn't mean that they don't hurt or they're not painful, but in writing the book, I think it felt like a former athlete

that's watching their old game film, like, wow, we did a lot. So there was a lot of that that happened. And I also, you know, part of this, and I said this repeatedly, there's a sacrifice to this. John went through with his life and his family time away, a lot of sacrifice from my kids and my wife. So this is an homage to them as well, right? So I felt emotions about that because I remember all the time it stole from my family. I mean, I was trained. And I can see how you guys were trained.

You know, there's a big component of this book around trust, Bob. Yeah. When did you make the decision to completely trust John and sort of the psychic instincts that John had? That's a great question. I can tell you that it kind of happened over time, right? I think we were both skeptical of each other in the beginning. And I'm the kind of guy. If I don't understand something, I need to go back and ask more questions, and that's what kind of forged me going back to him. but I could not deny that the things that he told me had value in these investigations. But I think for me, he was genuine. He cared, honestly. He never asked for anything except anonymity.

And so over time, that just came about. I trust him with my life. He's a brother to me now. He's a brother I'd never had to know. Listen, I feel the same way about him. And hopefully I'll have the opportunity to build a relationship to be you about. But I want to ask John something not 100% related to the book, but sort of related. You know, I lost my dad a few years ago and I said to John, Bob.

I said, is he okay? He said, yeah, he's totally okay. I'm more worried about the people here than the people that have crossed over. And so this is a very uplifting message that I would love to have you if you don't mind, John, share with our viewers and listeners. Sure. I, in the 40 now years, this is my 40th year of doing this, the one thing I could emphatically deliver to people is that those who have crossed over are okay. I'm not really concerned about them. They're in the light of, you know, peace, love and the universe, God, the divine, and other

family members and friends that have gone on. And their world is an overlay to ours, right? So it's just another dimension that they're just at a high, a vibrational kind of frequency, still participating in our lives like a reality show. They're okay, we're not. So the goal is for us to become as okay as we can on the journey that we're on, spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically, and incorporate them still.

Keep them present in our everyday. Make sure that they're remembered. Say their name. Acknowledge their positives and their negatives. Don't canonize people just because they've transitioned. and, you know, they've crossed over. Make sure people have a good three-dimensional understanding. My kids have a good three-dimensional understanding

of who my mom was when she was here. You know, not just the good stuff, but like all the stuff of who she is. And I think if we can do that with people, right? And if we can communicate, appreciate, and validate the people while they're here. Like, every time you leave somebody, leave them like it's the last time you're going to see them

because maybe it is. You know, are you okay with that last experience? And if not, change it, shift it. Pick up the phone, make that call, send that text. Don't leave things unsaid or unspoken. Okay, so we're going to get to, if you've ever listened to my podcast, we go to five words, we call them from the book, and then we ask our authors to react to the five words.

I'll say a word, you say what you think, and I'm going to ask both of you this. And so when I, Bob, I'm going to start with you, and I'm going to ask John the same word. When I say the word justice, you think of what, sir? True. Endless. Interesting. Endless pursuit of justice. John, when I say the word justice, you think what?

I think of the scales of justice in the tarot. I think of the tarot card in the major arcana that's called justice, which when applied is looking for fair, balanced understanding in our lives. And the truth, right? Obviously, we seek truth in justice, right? We're just evidentiary justice, right? Yep. All right, John, starting with you.

When I say the word fact, you think what? Validation. Fact to me, validation. Validation. What about you, Bob? Evidence. Yeah, see, that's what I thought. That must be because I went to law school.

When I hear the word fact, I think, okay, this is evidence to be applied to justice. Okay. All right. John, I say spirit. Afterlife. What do you say, Bob? I didn't hear his answer. What he said?

He said afterlife. I said spirit. He said afterlife. I energy well said okay so this is for you John not for you Bob I say Robert Hilland you say what powerful okay this is for you Robert I say John Edward teacher teacher yeah amen yeah I it's interesting because when I hear John Edward I hear teacher healer but also positivity like I can just see from John's face he gets a tremendous amount of psychic energy from helping people.

That it is the, talk about a vibration. When he's helping somebody else, he can feel the goosebumps on his arm that he's in touch with something that is kismet or magical. Am I wrong about that, John? No, it's my passion. You know, I will always say that there's a really cool feeling when you're sitting opposite someone.

Now it's over Zoom, but like sometimes in person I would see it happen in front of me where you see the lights go on in someone's eyes where they're kind of existing in their lives and having the understanding that their person is still connected to them. Their person still sees what's happening in their lives.

Their person is still around. There's a survival of consciousness and love. That understanding, there's not a greater feeling than seeing that for me. It's kind of like unconditioned, love in a universal and divine sense. So it's kind of really cool. Well, I'm so grateful to both you for coming on, open book, but also for sharing this story because it is such an amazingly powerful story that impacted people beneficially. But I think it also is a hopeful story.

Because in there, there's a story of Bob Hillen who didn't really see what you saw and you taught him to see what you saw and you helped him with his career, but also helped these people. And it was a story that, that, I don't know, it's how I feel about you, John. You know, I just feel like you're a force for good out there. And so many people feel connected to you as they're searching for their own answers in their own life. So we're all blessed to have you in our lives. And I thank you for that.

Thanks, Anthony. Thank you. The title of the book is Chasing Evil, Shocking Crime, Supernatural Forces, and an FBI agent's search for a whole. hope and justice. Guys, it's a resounding bestseller. I bought a stack of them. I've been handing him out to everybody.

Also, I do name, you know, Hillard, I do name drop Edward all the time. Especially these women love John Edwards. So I've always got to drop his name, Hillary. I know. And just for those of you listening in, Hillard's like holding his hand against his head. He knows.

He knows the women love John Edward. Ladies love John Edward. So I'm always dropping his name. Yeah, I feel like I want to say, something probably wouldn't be appropriate. Say it off air, Bob. Say it off air. I appreciate it, guys.

Thanks again for having you. Thanks again. Thanks again for coming on, guys. Thank you. Thanks. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was Open Book. Thank you so much for listening. If you like what you hear, tell your friends,

and make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. While you're there, please leave us a rating or review. If you want to connect with me or chat more about the discussions, it's at Scaramucci on X or Instagram. I'd love to hear from you. I'll see you back here next week.