Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - The REAL Real Housewife with Carole Radziwill

Episode Date: March 14, 2023

In this episode, Anthony talks with award-winning journalist, author and RHONY alum Carole Radziwill. Carole’s bestselling book What Remains: A Memoir of Fate, Friendship & Love traces her life as a child growing up in blue collar New York, to marrying Polish prince Anthony Radziwill – and joining the Kennedy clan. She shares a lot she has not shared before about Anthony’s cancer, and her friendship with John Kennedy and his bride Carolyn. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. I'm Anthony Scaramucci and welcome to Open Book where I talk to some of the most interesting and brilliant minds in our world today. In this show, I'll bring on guests in business, politics, entertainment, and more to go deep into a piece of their work, whether it's a highly anticipated book, an in-depth feature story, or an opinion piece that has captured my attention. We'll dig into why it matters to you and how their work is shaping our future. On today's episode, another one in our Women's History Month series, I talk with award-winning journalist and author Carol Radzwell. Carol's book, What Remains, was given to me a couple of weeks ago. It was released almost 20 years ago, but it reads and sells like it came out yesterday.

It's not just a book. It's Carol's life, and we cover all of it in this conversation. from her multiple Emmy and Peabody Awards as a journalist at ABC to marrying into the Radsawill family and by extension, the Kennedys. She's also entered the crazy world of Real Housewives of New York, and she said she only has 15 good summers left since we're the same age. I'm not too happy about that. Joining us now on Open Book is Carol Razzal. She is an award-winning journalist and author.

She's a reality television star. And she wrote literally an amazing book. And it's a quick read. It's called What Remains a Memoir of Fate, Friendship and Love. It went on to become a runaway bestseller. It's 20 years old, roughly, 18 or so years old. But it sells like it just came out. It's great to have you on.

I read the book yesterday. And so I'll just tell you, I was down in Miami. I said, okay, I got the book. my producer, Barbara and Holly, they said, read the book. I read the book. Couldn't put it down. Primarily because it was so raw, it was so honest, and it touched me. So what I want to go right to your upbringing, you have an Italian side of the family, you have an Austrian side of your family. Italian side is more like me. We'll talk about my wife in a second because I think you guys have a lot in common. But we're both front stabbers, aren't we, Carol? I don't think, I don't see you as a

backstabber. If you didn't like somebody, you would come right at them, right? Or no. I've never heard of that expression, but yes, I'm going to use that now. I'm pretty straightforward, and there's not a lot of subterfuge or backstabbing. You kind of know where you stand. When I read your book, I'm like, this is so open. This is so real. I mean, the title of our podcast is open book. And I was like, okay, you know, this is awesome that there's somebody here writing about life.

You also, obviously, have read a lot of Roman philosophy or Roman mythology because you tie it into the book. I want to go into that in a second as well. But tell my audience, tell our audience about your upbringing. Oh, gosh. Well, I grew up in like a very large, loud, for the most part, Italian, with one side Austrian. So it was quite a mix. A family, like working class family. My parents both worked. My dad worked two jobs. My mom worked two jobs. They had five kids. So, you know, those Italian families. They worked all the time to keep food on the table, to keep a roof over our head. And it was always like a little bit like I remember at that time in the 70s you missed a mortgage payment the bank would come the bank guys would come in suits and knock at your door so there was a little of that like so there

was always a little precarious but I think in a way we had a childhood that was like that one you might dream of like we were completely wild you know my parents said go out and play in the woods like leave us long like playing the woods don't come home and I just thought even though I kind of liked where I grew up and it was a fun childhood and I had crazy relatives and aunts and uncles. There was part of me that was just feeling like my nose pressed against the town limit sign and I wanted to get out and see the world. But we didn't have any money. At one point I thought, oh, I'll be a flight attendant because my aunt was and I thought, oh, if I'd be a flight attendant, I'd get paid to travel. And then something happened. We all have that aha moment and something happened. And I realized in that

second, I said, that's what I want to do. I want to be a journalist. I want to be where history is happening. And I want to, I want to witness it, experience it, record it, tell it, tell other people's stories. And then that's what I did, even though I was like a poor kid from upstate New York. Well, from the book, you grew up in Suffern. It's a town in Rockland County, but you had relatives in Kingston, which is a little farther north. You know, your upbringing, very similar of mine, but I'll tell you it was even more similar to is my wife, Deirdre. My wife, Deirdre's family. Father was German. Your side was Austrian. They grew up on the west side. You used the word Yorkville. I think you said that went the way of the

rotary phones. Well, Yorkville was the Upper East Side in the 80s. That's where Germantown was. Where the Austrians and Germans lived, there were great German delis up there, great German restaurants. So my wife is half German, and then she's also a Laga Marino, which is similar to with the Falco. And they moved to Rockland County. She went to Ramapo High School. school. And so like your parents, they left the city seeking some suburban bliss and put the kids up in Rockland County. My parents said all the Italians from the city were all looking at houses in Rockland County. And a lot of Italians moved up to that area. So the same sort of vintage. My wife wants to know if you were working at the Caldor in New City. Is that the Caldore? Or which Caldor were you

working. I was working in the Caldor. That's so funny, in Suffren on Route 59. On Route 59. Sure. I know exactly where that is. So for the younger people here, there were two sort of stores that were sub-target type of stores. It was called Caldor and Bradley's. And that's where the middle class people shop for everything, their jewelry, their furniture, their clothing. I spent many a day with my parents in Caldor buying dungarees. Well, listen, I was customer service. So I was practically management. I was the girl at the return counter and I, like, made announcements on the microphone. I thought I was hot shit. I was like 15 years old when I started there. And you mentioned in the book that you had a friend that you met through the Kennedy family,

Carolyn Bissette, Kennedy. She also worked at Caldor. Yes, she did. She was in the jewelry department, right? Yes. It was our big secret when we married those boys. She, you know, marrying John and I marrying Anthony, took us a long time to tell them that we had both, you know, worked summers at Caldor because, you know, they were water skiing, you know, behind the Christina, you know, in their summers in Greece. And we were like wearing schmocks with says, hello, my name is Carol. And we got up our courage weirdly to sell that's what our background was or that's what we were doing in the summers while you were water skiing. And both John and Anthony both aired at us like, A, they didn't know what Calder was. So they didn't know not to be impressed. And B, they were like, that sounds

like fun. They were like so cool with it. No, no. I mean, you wrote about them very eloquently in terms of their personalities. I love the scene that you said where you're walking out of the Caldor on a hot summer night and you can feel the whole change in the weather and the heat of the asphalt as you're trying to find your car. All of us that grew up like you did remember those things fondly. I used to work at the key food stocking shelves. So let's go to your career as a journalist at ABC for a second. You were taken around the world by ABC, the Far East, into different war zones. You write about these war zones with the great tension that war zones have in them. Obviously, you were in Afghanistan and Cambodia.

Yeah. Take us through that, but I want to talk about Annette Criner because you describe Annette Criner as a make it or break it sort of. She seemed like a casting director in some ways. She was either going to make or break your career, depending on what side of her you happen to be on. So talk about her and talk about how you ended up in these war zones. Well, I first sent my resume, which had basically, I was a waitress and worked at middle management at Caldor to 2020 when I was in college. And surprisingly, no one ever called me back. Then I was at, they used to have

these job fairs for students who wanted to get into the media. So I would go to a lot of these job fairs. And one of them, this older guy who was in advertising at ABC, took my resume and said, oh, I know, I'll help you. I'm going to give it to Annette Criner. And of course, I had heard of that name because I had sent my resume to her already. I said, oh, I already sent my resume to her. And he's like, don't worry, I'll take care of it. And three days later, Annette Criner's office called. And a week after that, I was in her office having an interview, which I thought was for an entry-level job. At the end of the interview, she hired me as an intern. And I was like, I thought I had won the lottery. Like, you mean I get to work here every day, eight hours,

10 hours a day? And I don't get paid. I don't care. I was just so excited to be there. And I'll never forget because I dressed up really nice. And I mimic my outfit off of an actress called Holly Hunter. Yeah, from Broadcast News, right? Yeah, she had just been, she was a producer in this movie Broadcast News, and I wore exactly what she wore in one of her scenes. And I'll never get a neck criner because she was known as the dragon lady, like someone who could really make or break you.

I get up and I'm so excited. I'm going to be an intern at ABC News 2020. And I wore a pin and a peplum little jacket. and a skirt. And she's like, oh, and by the way, we don't, we don't dress up that much around here. And that was my first piece of advice from Annette Criner. But anyway, I didn't care. Then I've eventually morphed into the uniform of journalists like, you know, khaki pants and buttoned down shirts. And, you know, I loved it. I loved it. I stayed for the three-month internship and then I just never left. I like, they, no one was asking me to leave. So I was like, wow, I guess I could just

stay. I was filling in for desk assistants and production secretaries and logging videotape. I was doing everything for free still. So finally, I think they felt bad for me. They started paying me. And that first year, I made $11,500. It was 1988. It was heaven. I just really thought I had, like, gotten the golden ticket.

And in a lot of ways, I did. I did. It was great. And my first big assignment, honestly, and listen, I had never really traveled. We didn't have money. We didn't travel when we were kids. I'd never traveled much outside of the tri-state area. At that point, like a year or two later, I was working for Peter Jennings.

He's like, Peter is really interested in Cambodia. We're going to go do a documentary in Cambodia. Are you interested in Cambodia? And, of course, I could honestly barely place it on a map. I remember watching the movie, The Killing Fields. I'm like, oh, my God, Cambodia, I'm so interested. I literally knew nothing. Now, I spent the next three months, like a kid who didn't go to Harvard or didn't go to fancy school,

just researching and reading about Cambodia, 10, 12 hours a day for three months. By the time I got to Cambodia, I knew every time I got to Cambodia. everything there was to know about it. And then we end up doing a documentary that won a bunch of awards and it was very well regarded. And that was sort of my first step into network news. And then after that, I was in Afghanistan, but before that, even you're probably too young, but I was in the Gulf War. 1992, I went to Israel during the Gulf War when Saddam Hussein was firing scud missiles at Israel. And they thought at the time that there were chemical warheads. So we were suited up and hazmat gear. Of course, none of the journalists ever wore the hazmat because it got in the way of,

you know, our work. And I spent about a month in Israel during that first Gulf War. And then later on, I did go to Afghanistan for about six weeks. I was in Kandahar with the 101st Airborne Division. It was, it was quite an education there. We also reported from Haiti, India. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the piece in India was about Bollywood. So that wasn't quite hard. hitting foreign news, but like, hey, you know, it was India. So it's a list that you have a fascinating life story and you write about it glowingly. I mean, you're a phenomenal writer. You're weaving your love story with your husband in the book, also talking about your right of passage from growing up. And I'm going to say this to you and I think you're going to get this because I feel we grew up

very similarly. There's a little bit of sheltering that takes place in a blue collar family and a blue color neighborhood. You know, you're with your family unit, you're with your friends, you have this little circuit of people that you hang out with, but you're not visiting country clubs. You're not visiting places of corporate acclamation, if you will. And so now you have to have this massive right of passage. There's a chasm between a blue collar upbringing and a corporate office like West 67th Street at ABC or 85 Broad Street where I ended up at Goldman Sachs when I got out of college. Yeah. And so you write about it. out that beautifully. But let's talk about the Menendez brothers and this handsome young journalist

stud by the name of Anthony Razzwell that you meet when you're covering this story in Los Angeles. Yeah. I was working for Peter Jennings at the time. He was working for Diane Sawyer, a show. It's not on the air anymore, but Primetime Live. And these two young boys had just, actually, they weren't even, they might have been charged or they were going to be charged, but the parents were murdered and they were suspects, very wealthy kids in Beverly Hills. And ABC flew out, I would say like 15 people. This was when they had a lot of money before Disney took over. Like 15 people put us all up at the four seasons hotel. And it was the first time I had ever been to Los Angeles and certainly four seasons. And we worked this story and we did the first, I think it was a two hour. I could be

wrong. Maybe it was an hour. But I think it was a two hour special on the Menendez murder case. There was no trial yet. It was just the invest. And Anthony was one of the, he was an eight, I was a PA, I was like lower. And he was an AP and he was, he was out there. And we, and actually, honestly, as I think I write in the book, it wasn't like we met and it was like love at first sight. We just sort of became friends. And then, you know, I went back to New York. He went back to New York. I then spent a month in Louisiana doing a documentary on abortion. And so we, we didn't, you know, it took, it was like starts and stops for at least like six or eight months until we kind of were like, hey, You know, you want to go get dinner. And it took a romantic turn, as they say. You said that you didn't really fight. You sort of like gave each other the silent treatment a little bit, right? Or it was like a little bit of like a slow burning hospitality, right?

Didn't he? He went away on some trip, I think, while you were in the courtship period. Oh, my God. And what's so funny about that? Because you remember these little details. I haven't thought about this story. You know, I haven't really thought about, you know, these details. Yes.

did. You know, I don't know, dating was different back then. Obviously, it's the 90s. You went to the, you went to the governor's ball with Buddy Romer. He was at there hanging out as well, but you were crushing on him. Buddy, you have been a crush on me. Well, I think it was, I think it was, I think it was more than a crush, by the way. It seemed like he was making a move. He was going through a divorce, and he was making a move. And if you talk to Bill Clinton a little longer at the governor's ball, he probably was going to be making a move as well. He was there too. But Buddy, but Buddy, Romer had warned me. He's like, be careful of the governor of Arkansas. No one knew about Bill Clinton at the time. He had not yet. There's a rumor in the ABC gossip channel from friends, mutual friends, that Buddy would write you poetry from time to time. Oh, my God. Yeah, I have about, I tell you, Anthony, like 60 letters from Buddy Romer, some poetry, but some like talking about politics and war and love and like he was, you know, he had just gotten divorced and I was so young. I didn't even get. And he seemed much older than me. He. He seemed much older than me. He was like, I mean, I was 24, 25.

He was like 40. Like that was like, wow, he's so grown up. Plus, he's the governor, right? And I, you know, I didn't get it right away. I didn't get it right away. And also, I was very, very conscious about my job as a journalist. And I would never get involved with anyone that I was reporting on, obviously. But then after the story, after the documentary aired, he took me to the White House,

to the governor's ball at the White House. And, you know, so I guess that would be like a date. We end up being good friends. I invited him to, he came to my wedding. Yes, I remember that as well. I also remember that you had the highest skirted dress at the governor's ball. Okay, see, you know, I just want to make sure you know I read the book. It's not like I'm just asking you questions.

Okay, I like reading these books. I was so young. I thought, I don't know, like all the wives, the governor's wives were much older, obviously, and they were like in ball gowns. I came in like a mini-s. I thought I looked so cute and so proper. was like off the shoulder, a little black Nicole Miller dress. I was like, plus I had no money. I didn't have money for a down. You were a great observer of human nature and the way humans interact with

each other. You write about your friends and you crushing on Robert Redford. One of one of your friends throwing $10 into the cab for Robert Redford. You write about this. And then you're watching the American Prince, John F. Kennedy Jr. He's now dealing with the Redford situation. where people are gagging about him. And so you're on the outside of the bubble. Now you're on the inside of the bubble, observing it from a different vantage point where the paparazzi's are pointing Camberts towards you

and some of your family members. Tell us a little bit about that. You know, I remember when I first started dating Anthony. And of course, I knew who his family was. But he had an office, like, down the hall for me, right? So it was like, we met on a level playing field. It wasn't like I was meeting Polish Prince and his kind of royal American prince cousins and family and his mom.

Like it was, I felt, maybe this was like, you know, the hubris of youth a little bit. But I was like, you know, I'm an associate producer working for Peter and he works for Diane. I never, and Anthony, by the way, also John, never made me feel like I was an outsider at all. So it was just like by the time I got around to meeting Anthony's family, you know, Anthony and I were, her had been dating for a good six or eight or months or maybe longer. and I met his mom and it was just like I was nervous because I was meeting my new boyfriend's mom. I never felt, I just never felt it was like they were up here and I was down there and they never made me feel that way. So it just sort of happened. And honestly, it was different times. So,

you know, Anthony was not, like we weren't, paparazzi were not following us around. They were at our wedding and stuff like that. But like we could float through the city and be totally fine. John, problem more so after he got married and he was then with Carolyn, who was, you know, six to blonde. She was gorgeous and the paparazzi love, you know, want to take her picture 24-7. But we were able to fly under the radar, which was so nice. I went out a couple of times with John before he married and while when people didn't know that he was living with then, Carolyn, who was one of my closest friend.

And I went out to some events with him occasionally because she just couldn't, didn't want to deal with the paparazzi and the gossip. And it was, it's hard. It's just sounds a little spoiled and like rich kid problems, but it's very undistabilizing to experience that. And yes, when I was a kid, of course, I saw Robert Redford on the street and I started screaming and yelling like a lunatic and following him and chasing him much in the way that I saw later on people do with John. So it's interesting. What did you know that your husband slash fiancee had a battle with cancer? Was that at the beginning part of dating him? It was after you fell in love.

with him, when did you realize that he had, he was a testicular cancer survivor? He had had that years before when he was much younger, like in his early 20s. When I met him, he was in his late 20s, he told me kind of like, I kind of think it was pretty early on, like in the first, like, few months because he, he was thoughtful, you know, he didn't want me to get involved with someone who couldn't have kids. It was like a conversation about children. And because he had had previously had had testicular cancer and the treatments weren't like they are now and probably men could have the treatments and still be fertile. He couldn't have kids and I remember having that conversation and we were young and I was like I wasn't dreaming about. I was never someone who really dreamed about having kids. I mean,

if I had kids, it would be nice, but it didn't happen and that was okay. And it wasn't a deal breaker with Anthony. I was like, okay, you know, it just, I just. You fell in love with them. So I mean, whether you could have been in love with somebody that didn't have testicular cancer and turned out he was sterile as well. You know, you're not going to fall out of love with somebody. My wife is a cancer survivor. She's a bladder cancer survivor. A very weird situation. She had it at a very young age. Thank God she's testing well, but it doesn't deter people from loving each other that there's illnesses. You write, though, about this in a way that is incredibly compelling. There's no wonder that this is a best-selling book because you describe life the way it happens. You're talking about tragedy just

slips up upon you. It's not like it's announced. There's not like a PA system. It says your life is about to abruptly change. You just have this slip up. You also write about the goddess, the matronly goddess fortuna. Tell us about the matronly Roman goddess fortuna. And then I'm going to explain to you why all Italians are pagans, by the way. But let's talk a little bit about the matronly goddess Fortuna. You know, I guess even as a young kid, I was always sort of weirdly fascinated by this, like, these moments between fate and fortune and life and death. Like there's all through, it's like when I was writing that book, I went back.

And the things that I remembered as a child were like when my grandmother died and this moment between watching my younger sister find out the news. My younger sister and my grandmother were so, so close. She was like 10 years old at the time. And that moment of like not knowing than knowing. And then also in seventh grade, there was a horrible tragic accident and a young, one of our classmates was killed in the school. And, you know, these are the things that stick out in, in my mind, like this idea of fate.

And like it could just happen. It's just like, just like that, what you think is, you know, the road you think is in front of you is no longer there. And I guess I was a weird kid that really focused on that a lot. And I guess in a way, it prepared me for this life that I had later on with my husband and certainly with John and Carolyn and the plane crash. So I started thinking a lot about fate and fortune and what people think of regard as fortune. Like people would say to me, wow, Carol's so fortunate. She's so lucky.

She's married. This great guy and to this interesting family. You know, fortune can be good and fortune can be bad. What they didn't know was that he had just been diagnosed with cancer. So the goddess fortune, I kind of used her as sort of like. this analogy of how people think one thing is going to happen and then another thing happens. I always, I was just, I was a weird kid. I was a weird kid. Oh, you're great. You're a great. You're a great. You're a great. We're writer, though. I mean,

you talk about it with such clarity and such dispassion. And you also talk about the pain. And so the the Greek word pathos is in the book because obviously we all have an equal demise, right? Or as Mel Brooks says, relax, none of us are getting out of here alive. Right. But you're facing this as a young age. You're expecting your husband to die. Yeah. But then what happens three weeks prior to your husband's death? I know. I know. It was the, yeah. That's what I'm saying. Like we were all Carolyn, John and I, we were all living together at the vineyard that summer. John and Carolyn going back and forth a little bit. John every weekend, Carolyn, not every weekend, but certainly this weekend, she was back. and forth. Yeah, we were, we were prepared. It was Anthony had had cancer for five years, and it was the end. I knew it. Anthony was still in denial about it. John was coming around to the idea that his, his really closest friend, brother, relative person, childhood buddy was going to,

was going to die. And it was really, really affecting him. But we were all sort of preparing. John was writing the eulogy actually, and Carolyn was always by my side. We were trying to keep Anthony up and happy, and that's where we were, all just holding our breath, waiting for, you know, what was ultimately going to happen with Anthony. And then in literally three minutes, the three minutes it took for that plane to be flying to hit the Atlantic Ocean and, you know, my, you know, changed so many lives. And then Anthony, you know, three weeks later, a little less than three weeks later, he passed away.

I think, you know, he was at the end stage of his cancer, but I think the plane crash, and I don't even think he had time to really process it. And that's what I mean about the goddess Fortuna. It's like, oh, you think this is going to happen. Well, I'm going to, this is going to happen first. It's a hard lesson, and that was a really, that was a very dark summer. Very dark summer.

I'm sorry. Tell us about the plans for July 18th. what were you going to do? The weekend before was so, it was really super fun because Christiana Ammopur is a close friend, still is, close family friend, very close, you know, was in college with John. And her and her new husband, Jamie Rubin, who was Assistant Secretary of State, were up for the weekend. And we just had the best weekend. I don't know, you know, Anthony was kind of like able to, you know, get around. We're at the beach.

And it was such a, it was fun. It was really fun. And actually, Carolyn was going to stay that week, but the last minute she decided to go back to the city, fate, I don't know. And then the following weekend, they were coming up, as they always did on the weekend. And, you know, I really, it was hard to be alone with Anthony during the week. I was scared a lot. You know, Martha's Vineyard doesn't even have a hospital on it.

You know, I was nervous a lot when I was alone with him during the week. So I was just really so grateful that they were coming back. And that I think, I kind of feel like I think Carolyn was going to stay for a week or two after that, like, because she knew that I was really, it was hard for me to stay alone with Anthony at this point. And, yeah, so we were just waiting, living our little lives, thinking everything was going to be put on hold until, until Anthony passed away. And, and we got our lives together and figure, you know, they were really my support at that time. Like, you know, when you have cancer, you might know this because your wife, you know, your world gets small. You know,

Anthony didn't want a lot of people knowing. So there weren't a lot of people. I confided in and just a handful people. Even in fact, a lot of people didn't even know he was ill to the very end. So, yeah, so there you go. And then you're like, you think you're waiting for something, one thing, and then this other thing happens. Well, listen, I'm sorry about all of it. And, you know, it's, I'm bringing it up because it's so poignant in the book and it's so

real worldly. And there's the reason why I wanted to have you on. I want to encourage people to read the book because as tragic as the story is, it's also very comforting because you're talking about life the way life is, not the way we want it to be or the way we think it should be, but it's really just frankly the way life is. And there's a sweetness to the way you're talking about it, which, you know, for me, it was incredibly eye-opening and there's a warmth about you that's in this book. And I'm going to switch topics abruptly because there's another part of your life where you are a real housewife of New York.

Okay. And there are some characters there, I would say. Yeah. And that's for sure. I mean, did your Italian side come out in full force? You know what? You would think it would. That was so, it was so counterintuitive to who I was as a per.

I mean, I had spent 15 years nearly at ABC News and then five or seven. years at that point writing quietly alone to what remains. And then my second book, a novel, Widows Got a Sex and Dating. You know, I had a pretty quiet life. And I decided to do that show kind of like on a whim. It wasn't even like I thought. I had never seen it, to be honest. So I didn't really know what I was getting into. But I just thought, you know, I'm just finished my second book. It's hard to sell books, especially hard to sell novels. And this show apparently is super popular. And I could sell some books. And in fact, it put what remains back on the, on the best seller list. But no, you know, I just thought the women were the first couple of seasons. I was just

like, I used to say, I'm on a comedy and they think they're in a drama. I just found their antics and their personality and the things they said and what they did. I'd never seen women like that. I was super sheltered, I guess. And growing up at ABC News in a news room, it was like boys club, right? So it wasn't like I wasn't used to competition and stuff. But I had never been around women that acted the way that these women acted. And so I thought that it was, you know, in the beginning, really fun and I just thought they were nuts. Like nuts, nuts, nuts, nuts, but it's tough, though, right? To do reality television. I mean, people are, I mean, I've done two shows. I know. I haven't been on the show as long as you, but I mean, I'm jumping out of helicopters.

They set my ass on fire running out of the house and special forces. I mean, and they're, they're unscripted, but obviously the parts of it are scripted because you're sitting in certain situations that the production staff put you in. Yeah. And then you're trying to get along with strangers, right? I mean, you're sitting there. I was sleeping on a cot in the middle of the Jordanian desert with 16 strangers with no indoor plumbing. We had no plumbing. We were actually, you know, using a cistern to go to the bathroom. And so, you know, it was pretty stressful. You, you've had some interesting lunches. Okay, let's talk about some of these lunches, okay, because you wrote a lunch date series for glamour. Okay, lunches included Rudolph Giuliani, Prince Andrew.

Alex Baldwin. I mean, could you have been more ahead of the stories? I mean, let's go over these things. Okay, so. Yeah, you know, Glamour asked me to do that column right after my memoir was published. And it was like very little work. My whole job was to take movie stars and famous people to lunch and talk to them about whatever thing that they were promoting. And the conceit of it was kind of flirty, fun.

And I did women too. And I remember I got paid a nice amount of money for that. That was a great, great gig. It only lasted like two years because after a while it's like the same questions to celebrities, like the same thing over and over again. It's not that interesting. But yeah, I had some pretty like amazing guests who would then go on to do some kind of some really insane things. As you pointed out, Prince Andrew, Alec Baldwin recently.

All right. And who was the other? Oh, Rudy Giuliani. Rudy Giuliani was, he was, what a shame. What a shame. I mean, talk about Fall from Grace. He was America's mayor when I did that interview. I mean, he was like everyone loved that dude.

Well, do you think that as we are faced with our mortality, some of us go insane? I think, yeah, I think it happens to men more than women. I think there's like a grasping, like a desperation. and it comes out in all sorts of different ways. It's almost a need to be relevant, right? You are at the top of the food chain one day and you're a husband the next day. Yeah. And, you know, maybe if you don't grow up in a blue-collar Italian family,

you're taking yourself a little bit too seriously, maybe, right? Yeah. Our families were simple, you know what I mean? So you got the simplicity of life and all that that entailed. You didn't have to be the do-all, be everything, right? No, exactly. And like, especially going on that reality show and it's a super relevant conversation in pop culture, right? I wasn't like, wow, people recognize me on the street or I'm relevant or I'm famous.

I never, I didn't care about any of that. And it has direct result. It is a direct connection to how I was brought up. You know, I'm still that girl from upstate New York. And then when I was off the show, if I said anything in the press, it was always like haters on social media saying, oh, you're trying to be relevant. You're irrelevant. It's like, no, I'm relevant in my life with the people I'd love, with my family, with my friends.

I don't need to be relevant above that. You know, there's no need to be. But some people do. We both know that. Some people do. Like Rudy Giuliani. You're like Rudy would be an example of that. But, you know, did you have lunch with Trump?

I mean, you hated Trump, right? In 2016, you went door to door for Secretary Clinton and you called Trump a buffoon. On national TV. I wish I had met you. then, you would have probably convinced me not to go work for him. So anyway, that's just my misjudgment. But you must have hated his guts, no? You know what? I was on the show, was season eight or nine. And we film in October, right? So the election in the beginning of November, we start filming in October. But that whole summer,

you know, I'm following the primary and caught my attention early on in the primary. And I thought, this guy is just no way he's going to, you know, he's going to make it. Then he made it. Then he got the nomination. Then I was watching the convention. So I was really, really, shocked. And by the time I started filming the show, I was like, I don't think people under, there was something just a visceral bad reaction I had when I saw him in his, like, you could tell instantly that he was a sociopath and narcissist, like instantly. I saw I was like, this, this, this is bad. And I remember sitting trying to talk to the other housewives, none of whom even knew there was an election going on, I think, about how bad this guy was going to be. They,

like they didn't understand how bad this guy was going to be for our country. I don't know. Not that I knew before. Everyone kind of, well, maybe you didn't. But like a lot of people were like, oh, no. I thought he was the better of two, you know, people because of my Republican Party politics. So that was my mistake. You know, listen, we did a lot of cognitive dissidents with Trump, meaning we were

overlooking a lot of things. At least when it became impossible, I spoke out against them. And when he was sitting president. And I went on a national campaign to try to stop him from becoming president again. But, you know, I should have met you earlier. You would have set me straight. Maybe you would have hit me with a wooden spoon like your grandmother or something. Yeah.

I just feel like I cried. I cried on camera. I was really like. And it's not like I cried because Hillary lost. I would have preferred her as president, obviously. I just thought this is really going to be bad. And I think that truth was born out. I think. I mean, you should have hung in there past 11 days. I mean, maybe you would have fired. They fired me. I got fired. You know, I went after Steve Bannon and they, and they fired me, which is fine. You know, and I think I've been vindicated by what's going on with Steve Bannon. Okay, we're coming up to the part of the show where I'm going to read you five subjects. And then I want you to give me your sort of instantaneous blink response to these subjects. Okay, ready? Millie DeFalco.

Oh my my fat Italian grandmother, full of love. She had big boobies. You wrote a bit up in the book. Yeah, she used to, she would deal. She'd go to the grocery store and she would put food items, expensive food items, like lamb chops and stuff in the basket where you would put like a baby, a kid or your purse and she put her boobs over it and just walk right through right out the door. No one even stopped her.

She was a character. She was the first character. She was a housewife, basically. She was a housewife. So, you know, I grew up around that. So I was like, maybe I was kind of like used to these over the top, colorful Italian, you know. She grew marijuana in her in her vegetable. Well, you wrote about her beautifully.

And it's, you know, and you know what? She lives inside of you today, Carol. Okay. All of that earthiness and all of that authenticity. So Peter Jennings. Well, wow, Peter Jennings. Now I always say I was so lucky to learn from the best. Like I really, I even say to people now, working for Peter really set me up for success because he was, I remember saying when I was a kid, a nobody from nowhere upstate.

I was like, I'm going to work for ABC News because that was the number one network. And Peter Jennings was number one. And I only wanted to work for number one. And, you know, people around me in my town would be like, oh, who do you think you are? You're not going to work for him. And then when I did, I mean, I really learned from the best. Honestly, to this day, I look at the anchors. There's no one better than him.

You would show up, you know, because I was an overachiever a little bit and a little, maybe a little insecure about not having gone to Harvard and Ivy. You'd go into a meeting with him and there was no room for error. We had memos at the time. Memos typed out, bullet points, neat. We all used the same font even. And, you know, Peter asked you a question. If you didn't know the answer, the only thing you had to say is, I'm not sure I'll get back to you.

And then you got back to him. He was, he just, it was like my sentimental education. It was like where I learned how to be a reporter, how to also conduct yourself. There was just an elegance about him. That was the best eight years. It was the first eight years that I worked for ABC. I worked, I worked directly for him in this very elite documentary unit. It was just like six of us.

And I worked for the best. And it was just such a great education. I remember the last day of 1999 where I think he was on the A, almost for the entire day. You remember that one on the turning of the millennium? Oh. Let's go to Anthony Radzwell. Oh, well, Anthony was like, I used to say if he wasn't a reporter, he would have been a pilot because there was something so fierce and so straight. And like, he just made you feel

when you were in his presence, instantly, like, everything was going to be okay. He had such a great sense of humor. He was so down to earth. He had lived this crazy life growing up. I mean, yet privilege and travel and the best of the best and been exposed to so many great artists and business people. But there was such an earthiness to him. Like, he loved the DeFalco clan. You know they used to say the Kennedy clan? He would be like, no, it's all about the DeFalco clan.

And he was just, I don't know, you know, he was so privileged and he never used it. He just never used it. He was always very. And I think, and John the same way, the same way. two of them were very similar in that way. John would always introduce himself to people, even though everyone in the world knew he was. It was just like very well-mannered. You said he always left out the F. He just said, I'm John Kennedy, right? Yeah, he would never say. He always tried to make people feel comfortable in his presence and get the

elephant out of the room quickly. Yeah. Quick to tell a joke to diffuse a situation, right? Yeah. I mean, they both had enormous amounts of charm and they used it and they knew how to deploy it and when to deploy it. But, you know, Anthony grew up. I mean, he was all safety net. I grew up with no safety nets. You know, Anthony was so, it was just like a great, and he just, he just loved how crazy the DeFalcos were.

Like, I was like, oh, God, you know, this and like, you know, like, and he just, he just loved it. Half my cousins showed up in, like, sequins for our wedding, you know, which was on the beach. It was crazy. Like, it was classic Italian crazy family. Speaking of a beach wedding, let's talk about. about Lee Razzowell?

Yeah. She was another character. I miss her. Lee was a very singular person. I was just talking about her the other day to someone. There's no one really like her. You know, as a mother-in-law, she was, it was, you know, Anthony was her prince. And, you know, I don't know, mother-in-law has always had that reputation of being really different.

She was great. I mean, I was always like a little nervous like I wasn't like measuring up maybe, but she never ever said anything or maybe kind of think that that's what she was thinking. It got complicated when Anthony got sick, and she was really hard for her to see that and to deal with it. But I will tell you, like, I knew her for 20-something years. And sometimes we'd be really close. And after Anthony died, we were really close. And then we kind of, you know, we kind of separated and grew apart a little.

But at the end of her life, I'd say the last five years, I would go over to her apartment and it would just be the two of us having dinner alone. And it was so great to connect with her. And I felt like at the end of her life, she really finally got who I was. and I got who she was. Like, we just really got each other. And it was really sad the day I heard that she had died. I know she was very sick, though. But she was great.

It was hard to be Jackie Kennedy's sister because it's hard to live in that shadow. But I tell you, she was the beautiful one, the stylish one, the very, very well-read, always knew what was going on politically. And the one thing I learned from her, she wasn't sentimental. She didn't like wax poetically, sentimentally about this previous life she had had in this glamorous 60s and 70s. She was really, I think, at the end, at the end, it really saves you. You know, she wasn't like longing to be back in that life. She really appreciated, you know, whatever experience she was having at the moment. I learned that's a good lesson from her.

What about Carolyn Beset Kennedy? Well, there was really, I mean, there was no one like her. And honestly, maybe everyone says that. she was really an original. I mean, I remember the moment I met her. John and Anthony and I shared a beach house and he came with this beautiful girl one weekend, Memorial Day weekend. And we just hit it off instantly. I didn't know that she had grown up in blue collar, not far from where I grew up, or I didn't know anything about her because she was so beautiful and sophisticated. But at the end of the day, we had similar stories. You know, we both moved to the big city to make it, right? She made it

in fashion. I made it in journalism. And there was a media. connection. And I just thought she was great. Sadly, though, like two weekends later, they had broken up because John had gotten back with an old girlfriend, Darrell Hannah. And so for the rest of the summer, it was Darryl Hannah. Daryl Hannah and her cats. Darrell Hannah and her cats. Yeah, yeah, you know, I was like, damn, but John and I would always, I would always ask John about Carolyn. I knew that they were kind of always kind of in touch. So I was the least surprised when after his mother passed away, it was shortly after that they got back together and that, you know, that was it for him. I mean, he was, He was really besotted with her.

She was someone that anyone could fall in love with. She was real. She was authentic. She was down to her. She was whip smart. Really funny. Sometimes I think that she's having a resurgence on social media. There's all these young girls that obviously didn't know her weren't alive when she was alive.

But there's so many Instagram feeds and social media pictures. She had a style about her. I remember when they were married. Obviously, you know, they were in the press a lot. She had style. I had not met either of them. I think I saw John F. Kennedy Jr. speak at a charity dinner once, but I'd never met either of them.

I read somewhere that you said you only have 15 good summers left. What the hell are you talking about? And by the way, you were very flattering. You and I are the same age just so you know, okay? Oh, my God. And I think you're born on the 20. Are you a Leo or a Virgo? How would you describe?

You're a Leo. Yeah, you come across the Leo. You have the hair line of a Leo. I have a lot of Virgo and my moon is Virgo and I'm really into astrology. So I just got my first chart read. So I'm having a really good year. This year is a year of no opposition. I have no bad transit.

My stars are in my ninth house, which is the house of publishing and production. Which is a good thing because I'm adapting what remains into a one woman play. So I'm hoping that has some success. Oh, good for you. When will that come out? Well, I don't know. I'm just, I've never obviously written a play. a production company in London had suggested I do that. It's been really interesting. So I'm actually

revisiting what remains right now. But, you know, I'm only right in the very beginning parts of it. I'm going to every play I can think of. You know, I'm just going to play as good ones, bad ones, big ones, little ones. So, yeah, so astrology, like that I'm big into astrology. Anyway, I got off the point. What was your question? Because I feel like I got off the point. I get the question. But I'm saying, you know, good Leo, you know you've got more than 15 good summers left. I mean, come on. I wasn't 15. I said five good summers, but but I was wrong. It's actually been 15. It was 15. So you were right. It related to the reality show, which I was on. And my second season, I met, I met and started dating and had a long, serious relationship with a man who was 22 years younger than me.

I would joke like, hey, listen, dude, I only have like five good summers left. I don't want to use them all up with you. And it just, you know, on that reality show, you never know what you're going to say that sticks. So everyone will say on social media and comment, you know, what summer is this? Or, well, you had way more than five summers left. So I was wrong, and I admitted, I was wrong. I definitely probably have 15 good summers left. I don't know what it meant. Again, on that show, I was always joking. I was always saying the dumbest things, except relating to Donald Trump. And people, you know, they just latch on to something. And then it just all of a sudden, it's like you're known for that. I said a lot of dumb shit on that show, Anthony. Hey, let me tell you something.

I've said a lot of dumb stuff, too. It's all good. Okay, it's just about being real. You've written an amazing book. You're incredibly down to earth and authentic. The title of the bestselling book, the runaway bestseller, is what remains, a memoir of fate, friendship, and love. Carol, thank you for joining me on open book today. Thank you for having me.

It was really a pleasure. So nice to talk to you, Anthony. And I'm happy we're both Italian. So, like. Yeah, you see that. It's interesting. Even though you have Austrian in you, you identify with the lunacy on the Italian side, right? You can't help you sell, right?

Yes. Of course. What I found so sensational about Carol was her values that were born from her blue-collar background and middle-class upbringing in Suffern New York, which was quite similar to my own and my wife, Deirdris. I'm on the show. Yeah, you want to come back on? Yeah, what is it? Go ahead.

All right. So, Ma, I just interviewed a woman by the name of Carol Radzwell. She was the daughter-in-law of Jackie Onassis's sister. Oh, wow. Okay. She's also on the Real Housewives of New York, and she was a journalist at ABC. Okay. All right.

I'm going to say, I'm going to bring you a copy of the book because she gets married at age 30, and her husband's 35. He's a prince. He's married in, you know, he's born into the Kennedy family. Right. But he has cancer. Right. And his first cousin is John F. Kennedy, Jr., and obviously Carolyn Beset Kennedy.

He has cancer. He's dying, but John Kennedy Jr. dies in that accident. So what about dealing with grief and loss, Ma? What do you tell people about life? I'll give an example of what happened. My mother died 50 years ago. And I had a father that had Parkinson's pretty badly, and he was going to be my headache

because I had two brothers, and he gave me the world, and I had an obligation to him to take care of them. And when my mother died, I was so stunned because she was a rock. And when she died, I lost all my hair. I didn't have a hair on my head and I never cried. Everyone grieves differently. And I think it's better to have tears than to keep it in because if you keep it in, different things happen to your body.

All right, but your hair grew back. You got very stressed by the loss of your mom, but you were 36 when she died. And she did die abruptly, right? Her cancer was discovered and then two and a half months later. And two days before two months, and it was a total shock because my mother was very tall, very straight, very, very with it, and it was a total shock that you would die. All right. So what do you tell people about dealing with grief and loss?

Well, I think that if you feel sadness and you were close to the person, you should let tears come so that you can deal with it down the road. I didn't cry at all. And I had my dad within a week. And so I lost my hair. So I think you should let your emotions come out when someone died. Right. So you can't let yourself.

battle up emotion and you have to recognize that as part of life, right? Isn't that basically one of the big lessons? Absolutely, yes. But she did die young where it threw me, because she was like a rock. And my son Anthony used to shop with her and they used to have a wonderful day together. And she loved her grandchildren, but Anthony was her pal because he loved to shop with her. That's true. I used to go to W.T. Grants with her for all the old people listening to the podcast. It was in Hempstead. You remember that? It was on Fulton Avenue, Hemstead. And you would have the ice cream waffle ice cream sandwich. Yeah, at the lunch counter, at the lunch counter.

What about reality television, Ma. You ever watch The Real Housewives? No. Why not? I don't. I watch Price is Right and Let's Make a Deal. I'm not too much of a TV person. And once in a while, I like, I always watch the Academy Awards or Miss America.

Right, you like those, right? But you don't really watch it. Yeah, I like those. But you do watch reality TV when I'm on it, though, right? Or no? When you're on it, I never miss because I love it. I love to watch you. But you were mad at me jumping out of that building, right?

You were mad at me, right? Well, I couldn't believe my son lost it where he would do that. And when you caught on fire, I thought that was out of control. And I was like palpitating that this was my son doing this. All right, but I came home safe. Everything was fine, right? It wasn't that big of a deal, right? I thought it was a big deal.

It was very nerve-wracking to watch you go through all of that. All right. I'm just asking. But I love to watch you on TV. I never want to miss because I just love it. And you always have a good punch line. Like yesterday you were on and you said you were in the White House 11 days and maybe they could give you another day. Yeah, well, the guy was running for president.

So I said maybe the guy will give me an extra day. So I got to have an even dozen days. And you always have like a punch where you have people watching it and they're interested in watching it. What do you do to lighten up the mood a little, Ma? Lighten up the mood. Right now. I made me sex or when I was young. No, when you're 86.

You talk to one of your boyfriends. What do you do? Like, how do you lighten up the mood? Well, I did make my first love, and it was something to meet. I'll tell you that. Lighting up the mood, I like to shop. I love makeup. I love the shop.

You like Gucci bags, right? Yeah. You like the Louis Vuitton bags, Ma. I want you know. I bought you a beautiful bag. You know, what happened? It was too small. You had to bring it back for a bigger bag, no?

Yeah, it was Chanel. I love Chanel products. Right, but it was too small for you, right? It was too small for me, and I needed, I got a beautiful tote, and it's gorgeous, and I live well because of my son. All right, ma, all right. I'm just asking about what you do to lighten up the moon. No, but I live well because of my son. You're into retail therapy, basically, right?

You like shopping, right? It makes you happy. Yeah, and I'm a makeup junkie. I have tons of makeup because I was a makeup artist. Right, I know. You're always critical of my makeup on TV. I got to watch. All right, Ma.

All right. Thank you for joining us again. I love you, ma. I love you too, honey. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was Open Book. Thank you for listen. If you like what you hear, tell your friends, and make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast.

While you're there, please leave us a rating or review. If you want to connect with me to chat more about the discussions, it's at Scaramucci on Twitter. It's also at Scaramucci on Instagram. You can text me at plus 1, 917, 909, 296. I'd love to hear from you. Let me know what you think and who you'd like to see on our show next. I'll see you back here next week.