Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - The Renegade: Adam Kinzinger on Defending Our Democracy

Episode Date: November 15, 2023

In this episode, former Congressman Adam Kinzinger joins Anthony to discuss his instant New York Times bestseller Renegade. Adam shares his personal inside account of the January 6 attacks on the U.S. Capitol and his vote to impeach Donald Trump. From his family disowning him to breaking from the Republican Party, he tells his story of faith, service, and political duty in a democracy under siege.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is Open book where I talk with some of the brightest minds out there about everything surrounding the written word from authors and historians to figures and entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe, wherever you get your podcast, and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the parts you're

enjoying or how we can do better. You know, I can roll with the punch. So let me know. Anyways, let's get to it. My guest today, former Congressman Adam Kinzinger, is a self-described renegade, and that's the title of his brand new book. Adam is an incredible patriot, and we would be in a much better position as a society and country with more people like him in office. So joining us now on Open Book is Adam Kinzinger. He's a U.S. Representative for Illinois, at least the former U.S. Representative for Illinois's 16th Congressional district. He served in our Congress from 2011 to 2023 and is the author of a bestselling book, Renegade, Defending Democracy and Liberty in Our Divided Country. But I got to tell you,

I'm a fanboy of yours. I'll explain why. I think that Jack Kennedy wrote a book called Profiles and Courage. And they were critical of that book in the 1950s. One of the journalists said to Kennedy, well, the book is quite slim. And he said, well, yeah, it's slim because it was very hard to find courage in the Congress. And that was Kennedy's quip and remark about that. And yet here you are at a seminal moment in our history where I think a lot of things are fracturing. And you stood up to President Trump. You stood up for the values of the American democracy. And what once was the Republican Party. And so I'm a huge fan. I just have to say that up front, Adam, and appreciate you coming on. Congratulations on the book. How would you describe your political standing right now?

Are we a dying breed? And you more so than me because you are a former elected official. I'm just one of those midnight warriors that got fired after 11 days. Well, good to see you, buddy. And thanks for having me. And I appreciate you speaking out, too. And thanks for the kind words. Like, you know, look, are we a dying breed, I guess in a way I would say yes.

But like, it's not like we change. And then, you know, our type of people always existed. And it's not like, you know, I guess some have kind of sold out to the Trump cult or whatever. But I don't know, man. And it's like, I think ultimately there's going to be a day when kind of, you know, normal thinking, I'll call it, comes back. I think it may have to take another loss or two for the GOP. Or maybe it's just this moment where like everybody's kind of ready for somebody to come heal the nation. They just don't know it yet.

You know, like the country was ready for Trump to break the nation. It's just we didn't, they didn't necessarily know it. And he kind of accidentally, you know, hopped in at the right time. So I don't know. But I'll tell you, there need to be people like us out there. Otherwise, I don't see how this continues to succeed for the long term. Well, you know, I listen for me personally, I have no political instinct. So I actually thought it was going to go the other way.

You know, I was 71 campaign stops with Mr. Trump, lifelong Republican, consider myself a moderate Republican. And I considered him a moderate because he was once a Democrat. He was agnostic to things like transgenderism and, you know, abortion and things like that. He morphed. I guess you needed to do that to win the presidency. but Adam, what he was doing, which I respected, and I just want to get your reaction to this, is he was speaking to a class of people, a group of people that feel disenfranchised.

We hollowed out. You know, I've had Robert Lighthizer on this podcast for his book discussing our manufacturing policies and our trade policies. And people like the ones I grew up with were directly impacted by this. In fact, I told Mr. Trump that my father's wages, if he had the same union job today versus in the 1960s and 70s, the real living wages are down about 26%, which puts the scaramucci's on the poverty line. It doesn't put us in the middle class, which is the way we grew up. And so I thought he was championing that. That was a vacuum that was left by the Democrats. They left that space,

but it became distorted. It almost became like a Frankenstein monster, where now we have all of this hate and we have all of this white supremacy nonsense and so forth. Did he cause that or was that there and that it bubble up and he became its avatar. I call him kind of the accelerant. He was the accelerant, right? Like, yes, it was always there. And I think you're right. There was a real dis, particularly where I'm at, where I'm from, the Midwest, you know,

that just felt kind of left behind and ignored by the coastal elites. And it's a reality. And so he came along and he gave voice to that. And like you said, it was an opportunity for him to give like a voice to that fear and then use that like voice if he was a better person, if he was an. actual good human being, he could have used that fear and that voice to then point people to a positive future, or at least do something, you know, to project a positive future. Instead, all he did was he allowed the fear to get out of control and then he just continued to use that for his own

benefit. There was no bone in his body that was about like making the country better. And, you know, he took it personal when the Democrats opposed him on things. Well, that's what Democrats do when you're a Republican. That's what Republicans do when you're a Democrat. And he took that personally. least. But yeah, I mean, look, that is a real, if I was advising Democrats and they don't really take my advice, but if I was, I would say, you have to give voice to that fear of crime. That's a real issue. That's a real fear right now. You know, immigration is a real concern. I'm in Chicago at the moment, and it's like there's these tent cities that are popping up and people are upset about that. And, you know, give voice to that kind of feeling of hopelessness, but do it with a positive focus.

And I'm not sure the Democrats quite know that are either at the moment. Well, they've got their own level of insanity going on, right? I mean, they've got this whole unhinged wokeism that's driving everybody crazy. Andrew Cuomo, who I grew up with, the former governor here in New York, said to me yesterday, the exact quote, the three worst words ever uttered by a Democrat, defund the police. Oh, gosh, yeah. Okay. I mean, the three worst words, right? So we both know that we have craziness on both sides. Can I say to that real quick, like, because what you'll hear is, and you'll probably see it in the comments and you hear it from your friends, they're like, oh, the defund the police. That was like three people that ever said that and whatever, and it's not real. Okay.

You know, look, I don't know. But I'm going to tell you the perception. If you want to have good advice, let me tell you, the perception is that you guys are all about defunding the police. So if you're not, then go out and aggressively go after this much harder. But if you're going to get mad at me for telling you what the perception is, well, that's. that's on you if that actually does impact the election. Totally true. I mean, and that, that brings me to my next question, which I think you describe in the book. I'd like to have you describe it to our viewers and listeners. What happened? You know, the Bob Dole once said that he

made not have agreed with George McGovern, but they both served in the U.S. military during the Second World War, a result of which they had mutuality of respect. And therefore, they may not have agreed on issues of policy, but they agreed on their love for the country and the sacrifices. And of course, in Dull's case, he was, he was wounded in the war, the sacrifices that they made. So there was some level of comity, C-O-M-I-T-Y. What happens, sir? Why do we get to where we are right now? Look, I think it's any number of things, but a lot of it is, you know, finance and fundraising is so important in politics. And it just continues to, I mean, like every year, it becomes more and more important. And I remember being, you know, showing up in 2010 or 2011,

I guess when I was elected. And, you know, at the time it was all about you've got to do these big fundraisers. You've got to raise money from downtown these packs. You've got to, you know, find the big donors. They'll throw fundraising events for you. Everybody needs to max out. The Democrats became really good at small dollar fundraising. And then the Republicans became really good at it.

Well, what's the best way to raise money? What's the best way to keep eyes addicted to television or reading a certain newspaper? It's fear. If I have you convinced that you're going to die. die. And the only thing that can stop it is me. Like you'd part with anything. Even if you're on a fixed income and Social Security, you'd send me $10 if you think I can stop, you know, Nancy Pelosi or whatever the demon is from destroying this world. And so that fear became addictive. And you can, again, you can play with the arts a little bit of fear in politics, but you have to

know when to tamp it down. You have to know when to put that fire out. And I think what's happened is fear has become so profitable and fright has become profitable. And by the way, Anthony, the best way to actually get people motivated is not like fear of the Democrats. It's fear of somebody in your own ranks that's an apostate, right? That's you and I now. You and I are the rhinos. You and I are the ones that don't show sufficient loyalty to Donald Trump. And so some of these news organizations like to go after us the most because that actually drives the most eyes and drives the most fundraise. And so I think it's all, of it. But I think that's basically how we got to where we are, is just using fear and kind of a loss of

this feeling that, look, as a leader, I have to actually put out some good news and good ideas for people. That's my responsibility. There's a loss of that feeling of responsibility. All right. I'm going to go to my birthday. Okay. I'm born on January 6th. Can you imagine that? Oh, gosh. Okay. So on my 57th birthday, there was, would look like to me, insurrection or movement a crush of the Capitol, an invasion of the Capitol, actually. I think people's lives were under threat. You tell me if I'm wrong. Obviously, Tucker Carlson said it was a tourist visit and people were taking selfies and it was quite mild-mannered. But it seemed like the Secret Service is moving Vice President Pence pretty quickly out of the area. So tell us your words about the attack on the Capitol. And you write in the book that you felt some sense of responsibility for it happening. So explain that to people. Explain that as well. Yeah, so I think that the sense of responsibility, and I, is we have to, if we're going to, like, if I'm going to put out a book about myself, for God's sakes, right? Which is basically an arrogant thing to do. It feels very arrogant. But I need to be very clear about any role I played in where we are. And look, I was able to benefit from that playing with fire for a long time, right?

Like, our party would raise money and get votes based on that fear of Obamacare and death. You know, I never talked about death panels, but I never stopped other people from. I'm talking about death panels, you know, for instance, with Obamacare. And so it's like coming to recognize that, yeah, I, you know, there were many more times. I should have voted for the first impeachment. In hindsight, I'm glad I didn't only because it allowed me to survive to the second one, but I should have voted for the first impeachment. And so I look at those kinds of things and like, yeah, I, like, I bear some responsibility for it.

Probably not as much as most in my party, but I bear it. In terms of the actual January 6th, I mean, look, I predicted violence before January 6th. I get asked all the time, like, how did you know? And it was really easy. I looked at Twitter and I saw people threatening me. I saw what they were saying about what they were going to do at the Capitol. I recognize that the former president had convinced a significant amount of the Republican base that an election was stolen. And I know that like the American thing that we believe in that we're proud of is that we were born out of revolution.

We were born out of this idea that, you know, taxation only with representation. And I know all the base people that always talk about like how the tree of liberty needs refreshed with the blood of patriots every now and it. And I knew what this was pointing to. So I show up that day. I took my gun to work, which I usually didn't take my gun to the Capitol. We were allowed to, but it was like no reason, right? There's no reason to take it. I did that day.

I asked my staff to stay home. My wife stayed home. And yeah, by the end of, you know, as everything was going down, it was so predictable to me, I end up barricaded to my office. And I got to tell you, like, I'm a Christian, but I'm a Christian, but I'm a Christian. I'm not like one of these that says like, oh, I feel this evil around the corner or this darkness or whatever. But that day, I felt just a real darkness that was coming down over the Capitol. It was this like just, I don't know, dark cloud. That's the best way I can put it.

And I ended up barricaded in my office. There was a point where I thought like I may have to actually fight, you know, people with a gun. And then by the end of the day, you know, went down, gave my speech on the floor when everything was kind of tamped down. And I just remember being pissed off. I wasn't like inspired by the survival of democracy or anything. like that, I just remember being angry because 130 some of my fellow Republicans were still going to vote against certification of the election, even though they knew as literally a body was still outside and glass was on the floor. They knew they caused that. But they didn't

have the courage to then turn their vote because why? Because the most important thing ever, the most important thing ever is to keep your identity and keep your job. And that's what they cared about. And so it was a terrible day, but I say, look, we aren't defined by bad days. We're defined by what we do with those bad days. And I think that's the part of the story we're still writing, is how do we come back? So Mike Johnson is somebody you know, served with him. He's now the speaker of the house. He didn't buy the validity of the 2020 election. Do I have that right or what do I have wrong? No, that's right. And not only didn't he buy it, he actually led the effort. So the very first kind of sense that I got that we were actually going to do more than just go on the news

and talk about a stolen election. We generally, you know, not me, obviously, but the Republican Party in general, was Mike Johnson came to me because he obviously didn't know me that well and asked me to sign on to this amicus brief to the Texas lawsuit, which would throw out the votes of places like Michigan. And I just looked at him. I'm like, Mike, dude, come on, you know better and you know me. I'm not going to sign on to this. And so that's where I got, like, that was my introduction to him, really, was that moment. if you look at all the arguments that were made back then. So all the arguments against like, you know, the election or whatever, a lot of them cite the work of Mike Johnson.

And when they're talking about, hey, you know, I don't know, this constitutional amendment or whatever it was they were saying, it was always Mike Johnson said. And I think the scary part to me is I know he's a smart guy. And I know he doesn't believe the election was stolen. I know that because like he's smart. But he's still willing to lie about it. That just goes to show it's the end justifies the means kind of a person, which is frightening to me. So let's get in the mind of not necessarily Mike Johnson, but you serve with a lot of these

people. I have met members of House Republicans and I've been a Republican fundraiser and a donor for almost three decades. And so they'll come into a small group meeting and say Trump sucks. Right. And then they'll go out in the public domain and say Trump is awesome. You know, and McCarthy, who I think is the definition of profiles and cowardice, not courage, he had Trump on the ropes on January 7th.

You could have put him right through the ropes for what he did to the country, and yet he got nervous. And then it passed and he became an ex-president. No one wanted to convict an ex-president, but they had him on the ropes. Him and McConnell could have convicted him impeached and convicted him for what happened on January 6th. So what goes on? Tell me the mind. You deal with these people. You know, what's refreshing about you is you're not one of them, but you were there with them.

So what goes on in their minds? It's cool for them to say one thing and do another and believe one thing, but act in a different way than their police. What is it about their DNA? Part of the problem is, like, at those fundraisers where they do like the, yeah, Trump's insane, you know, wink, wink, nod, like, hey, I got to, just so you guys know, I got to go do the Fox News thing and say, you know, blah, blah, blah. They do that. And the problem is is that donors basically let them off the hook. they kind of shake their head and like, yeah,

yeah, you're right, I get it. And, you know, that's why somebody like Nancy Mace can claim to be a moderate Republican and then go on Steve Bannon's podcast

because people can look at her and be like, oh, I get it. I get what she's doing. Like, I'll say this to any Republican donors. Quit doing that. Like, start holding these people accountable. If they're going to tell you,

yeah, Trump's insane, they need to go say Trump's insane out in the public because otherwise that just shows their complete coward. So what happens is, you know, they need to raise the money. they don't believe these arguments, but they see people like me and like Liz Cheney and like you who get sniped when you stand up alone.

And they're like, well, gosh, I don't want to get sniped. Well, of course you don't. Nobody wants to get sniped. But I also don't want to be able to, I don't want to have to look in the mirror and think and talk to my two-year-old kid someday about courage and doing the right thing, even when it's hard, and know that I was unable to do the exact same thing. Like, how can I say that to him? And so I think just what goes to their mind is an utter.

fear of losing their title of being kicked out of the tribe? Because I've come to believe that people more than they fear death even, they fear being kicked out of their tribe. They fear losing that title. And I think you have to finally confront that moment. And then you get a lot of courage. But until that point, you know, it's like the fear of the unknown is worse than actually going forward and saying, look, I'm done with Donald Trump. Right. Yes, you may lose your job in Congress. Well, guess what? There's a lot more money to be made and you get to travel. a little less if you don't stay in Congress. So it's actually quite a bit better.

But you don't correct me if I'm wrong. You don't have that fear. Not anymore, yeah. You had it at one point? I don't know. I guess like I always, so here's the interesting thing. And maybe this was a God thing. I don't know.

But when I came back from my rack in 2010, or no, 09 when I started running, I remember consciously thinking. And then I even said it out loud a few times. is like, if we're going to ask young people to die for this country, you know, if I'm going to take a vote, like, to send people to war and, you know, to outfit people for war, that kind of stuff. I have to be willing to give up my career if there comes a vote that is so important to the country that, you know, I have to take a vote that ends my career. And I just remember thinking about that all the time. So I think the fear was still there. Like, I never wanted to have to do that.

I mean, you know, I can talk about the times. Yes, I spoke out probably more than anybody against us. Donald Trump with some of the things he said did, but there were times I didn't and I should have, too. But once I think I just once, once it became clear to me that what was going on was going to define the rest of my life and be historic, you know, a stolen election and that kind of stuff, the fear went away because at that point, my fear was just simply being seen as a coward historically. That was the biggest fear I had. So yeah, I guess to an extent everybody has fear. It's just which one's greater. And mine was the biggest fear was just to be a coward.

It's so well said. But I mean, so many people unfortunately don't think like that. Right. Okay. You served in Iraq. You're a courageous guy. So you get that from your parents. You get that from an inner voice. You get that from your family members that encourage you. Where do you get it from, Adam? I guess I would say I get it from all of the things you mentioned. So family, the inner voice. Just the, you know, okay, so training, whether it's as a pilot or, you know, as a military member or whatever, training is all about, or let's say you're a police officer. Why do you go to the range and shoot? Because you have to be willing, you have to know what it's like to make a decision to shoot and then you have to go through the motions of doing that. And I think for me, I just was always conscious of the fact that, you know, I would have to make those decisions. And I think I trained my mind to be courageous, I guess, if you want to call it that. I feel uncomfortable. It's calling it courage. But like, train my mind to do the.

right thing. So I think that's a lot of where it came from. Obviously, great family, great upbringing, but like just always going through my head, like I may have to do this career-ending thing. And it just made it likely I was willing to do it when that time came. So people seeking power today, I mean, it was always like this. It didn't feel like this when I was growing up. I sort of felt like the people that were seeking power when I was growing up had this great love for the country. You know, I think, again, George McGovern, Ronald Reagan, Walter Mondale, you can look at like or dislike their political views, James Earl Carter, Jimmy Carter. Again, we could agree or disagree on the success of his presidency, but it seemed like they were well intended and they were

pursuing the public interest or serving the people. It appears now, and I'm wondering if Citizen United had this effect, it appears now that the Congress can be bought. You know, the big farmer comes in there, big food comes in there, lobbyists come in there, the men and women want to stay in power. They know they need money for that. And if you just look at the way the laws have been promulgated since Citizens United, they favor the very wealthy. And they don't seem like that there being any way policies pursuing or helping the middle or lower class. What am I getting wrong? Tell me if I'm wrong.

If I'm wrong, say you're wrong and here's why because it's just an observation and it's my personal one. It's not empirical. I think it's both because I think it's two things. So first off, I think you're correct. I think Citizens United was terrible for this country. I think we're in danger of becoming an oligarchy. right so just look at illinois we had a billionaire that republican that was governor so the democrats had to recruit a billionaire pritzker to run against our billionaire and then in the last election we

tried to find another billionaire to run against pritzker because we needed a billionaire right so what's happening is the average person is being moved out of politics or if you're the average person that comes to politics without money you've got to go find these sources and exactly the people you mentioned are the ones that bring that source with them i think The other thing, though, is, you know, the most addictive drug out there, I'm convinced is fame and popularity, even though it's a pretty hollow drug. It's pretty addictive. And I think politics with, you know, like new media, the different way of doing things, the fact, the obsession people have with Washington, D.C. now. Like, politics has become almost more than Hollywood in terms of fame.

And by the way, you can actually make your own fame now. So if you want to become famous and you want to be in Hollywood, that takes a lot of effort and a lot of luck. If you want to become famous in politics, all you have to do, anybody can do it. You just tweet something outrageous. And all of a sudden, you're famous. And I think that drug of fame has been really bad for who we've attracted to politics. And quite honestly, I mean, who wants the normal people that are good people who would look at this and want to go in? Right.

Because it's just so bad right now. And that's the same thing, too. But I almost feel like they've done that on purpose. They've, like, created these ridiculous barriers to. entry for normal people and they're mudraking and they don't want normal people to enter. Speaking of two reasonably normal people, I mean, at least by my observation and my interaction, are two governors, Chris Christie and Nikki Haley. I think that I've seen you express this and you like both of them.

Do they have any shot to get the Republican nomination? Yeah, I do think there is a shot. I prefer Chris Christie because Chris Christie tells the truth. Nikki, I like and I think she'd be a great president. My only concern is I think she called this a witch hunt against Donald Trump. And I'm like, we just need more people to tell the truth that it's not a witch hunt that Donald Trump is a witch. And it's just a it's just a hunt, right? It's not a witch hunt.

Right. But yeah, I think, look, if you look at whatever the recent polling in Iowa is, I think Trump's still like 45, yet the DeSantis Haley numbers like 36 combined, you know, Ron DeSantis needs to drop out. He has no, he has no future in this. But once, and some of his support will go to Trump. But once either Haley or Christie start consolidating that second place position, then it becomes a discussion about Donald Trump or Haley slash Christi. And then at that point, I think there is a chance that you can start seeing people consolidate behind one candidate. To the point right now, there's just still too many candidates in the field. I'm glad Pence got out.

Nobody knew what Pence actually stood for because one day he was pro insurrection. The next day he was anti. But I do think it's not likely. but I do think there's a decent chance that one of those two could win. Plus, keep in mind, once he's in trial, once Trump is in trial and he's occupied and then all the details of this stuff comes out, it's going to have an impact, regardless of what people think it's going to have an impact. Yeah, I don't know.

I just super worry. You said that the country may need leadership or may not recognize yet that it needs this transformational leader. So let's make you, Dr. Frankenstein, and I'm going to put you in the laboratory. what kind of leader would be acceptable to these different sects of the Republican Party and would still have some crossover appeal to moderate Democrats and independence? Look, I actually think it would be take Chris Christie or Nikki Haley, and I think that's it. Because let's just take Nikki Haley because she's relatively unknown compared to Chris Christie.

But I think they both would have this appeal, which is I think the Republican Party would, even the most hardcore Trump supporters, once he's out of the picture, it kind of would revert back to an extent to the old Republican Party. Not the old party, but like, you know, they have nowhere else to go. Maybe they go to Kennedy Jr., who knows. But I think somebody like a Nikki Haley or Chris Christie that has been a governor that knows how to work with the other side. This is Chris Christie's big thing is, you know, he was a Republican governor in a Democratic state,

obviously. And I think that's it. I think that's the Frankenstein I would put together. I would like to see a governor of a blue state, a red governor of a blue state, that knows how to stay away from the divisive social issues, right? You can be pro-life. That's fine. That's great.

I'm pro-life. But that doesn't have to lead your campaign. And there's no reason to talk about it. That's the kind of person that I think can win. Certainly the middle can start to win some of those moderate Democrats. And somebody that believes again in America, this is the big key is, can you be optimistic? Recognize the challenges we have, but have an optimistic message and particularly a message of strong national defense. Because we have become in this country, like, we've sort of quit believing in our ability to do foreign policy.

And we're still pretty darn good at it. Very, very well said. All right. I'm at the point of the podcast, Mr. Author, where I have five words after cleaning your book. Okay. I have these five words that I'm going to read out to you. And then you can have a reaction to the, you can give me a paragraph or not. You know, when I brought up with Lightheiser as an example, I said the United States, he gave me his rendition.

I said, well, I sort of feel like love affair. is what I would say about the United States. I feel like people like you and Robert Lighthouse have a love affair with the United States. So we're not going to go with that one. But let's talk about democracy. Yeah. I mean, look, democracy is the hardest form of government in the world. And this is a new revelation that I've had, particularly since January 6th. It is difficult, right? It's the best form. But it's difficult. Why is it difficult? Because you have to have a basic level of trust. And all that trust is that the election, counts and that the winner wins, that's it. When that is destroyed, we're in trouble. But I would say the hardest form of government. Peaceful transfer of power, which is always

impressive to people because two-thirds of the world lives with some level of dictatorship or autocracy. And so in the West, we've been able to make that happen for several hundred years, at least. And so hopefully we can continue it. But it's rough out there, my friend. So that's the second word, courage. Courage is just doing the right thing when it doesn't feel like the right thing. That's what I'd say about courage. It's just... And sometimes not fitting into your tribe, right? Because it's hard. You have to go against the grain of what's easy. That's right. If I say the word politics, what do you think of? Actually, it's a negative feeling now, which makes me a little sad that it is a negative feeling. Because I think it's an honorable profession still. But yeah,

I would say right now, it just feels broken. That's what I would say to politics, broken. Okay. I'm about the word renegade, the title of your book, the word renegade. Renegade, I would put that with just being willing to tell the tribe no or to go against the tribe. That's what I would say. Right. So breaking from the ranks, there's a, when you say renegade, there's like a fun part of it. I hear Maverick in that as well. You're going to break ranks. Yeah. Necessary for that. I think people find it was a cool 80s TV show too. Yeah, it was. See, I'm old enough to remember that. But I feel like you have a huge fan base. I'm like, like many of us, you're probably reading some of the negative tweets about yourself, but you should ignore those. You have a huge fan base. I think people

really respect that you're red, white, and blue, that you really, you know, you believe in the first name of the country, which is United. It's not the disunited States of America. I mean, when I read your book, that's what came out of it for me. The last word is, uh, Adam Kinsinger. What would you say about that person? That's a tough one. How do you describe, what would you say about yourself? I just say like a middle class kid that happened to be well known for just simply doing the right thing. You know, I don't know. Yeah, well, that's your middle class Midwestern modesty. I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit.

You know, I was with a buddy of mine this morning at the local diner. So I live in the town that I grew up in was a blue collar town. There's some wealthy people to live on the water. But I live two miles from where my parents raised me. So I went to go visit one of my friends at the local diner. And he said to me, you know, we're living in a. historic time. And I said, well, what do you mean? He said, well, there's so much craziness out that we may end up losing the democracy or we may be able to keep it together and somebody 25 or

30 years from now will be writing about it or maybe doing motion pictures about it. And, you know, your name came up, really just trying to do the right thing. It's funny to say that. I'm going to be interviewing him today. And, you know, what he said to me, which I'm going to share with you, is he said, thank you. Oh, thanks. Thank you. And so, I'm a, I'm a good. And so, I'm I mean, there's a lot of gratitude out there for you. And I greatly appreciate you coming on Open Book. Now, I have an ask of you. I hope you'll accept my invitation.

I want to bring you back when the election heats up. Okay. Just to talk about what's going on and what you see from the political side guess. So, well, you'll be hearing from office. That's okay. Yeah, anytime. It was great. I enjoyed it.

All right, Adam. God bless you. Thank you so much for joining us, stay on Open Book. You too, my friend. Well, Adam is a young guy for a guy like me, right? I'm 60. So at 45, there is Adam representing himself as a true profile and courage. And of course, you remember from the discussion, then Senator John Kennedy in the 1950s said that his book about finding congressmen or women that could cross party lines defy their party and do something in the interest of the country are quite rare. In fact, if he wrote a book called Profiles and Cowardists, it would have been as large. is the Encyclopedia Britannica, but we have this very thin book called Profiles and Courage, which Jack Kennedy won the Pulitzer Prize for. Adam would be in that book. He's an incredibly thoughtful and courageous American Patriot, and you got to see why today on Open Book. I am very

proud to have had him on the show, and I'm looking forward to our future conversations with him as we get into the 2024 presidential elections. All right, so my other guy is the guy I had on was named Adam Kinsinger. And he was a congressman and he stood up to Trump when Trump told the people to march on the Capitol. You remember my birthday when I turned 57? Yeah, of course. And Trump, but Trump is a little nuts to tell the people to run up to the Capitol and break the windows, don't you think? Or he loses it. And he thinks that he's very tough doing that, but it's actually starting to hurt him. Now he's going to back off and become normal. But you don't really think he'd become normal, right? My, he's go-gooots, no?

Well, I think he gets off on being that way, though. You know, some people draw attention to themselves, and he might be insecure, and that's how he gets more secure by doing that. See, it's funny because Mike Fasateli, you remember Mike, right? Yeah, of course. So Mike's mother thought Trump was unbelievably insecure. She told him right to his face. She said, Donald, why are you so insecure?

Why do you think he's so insecure, though, Ma? He said, you know, he's had a very successful career. became the president. I don't get why he's so insecure. I think that his background of his family caused some of it. His brother was an alcoholic, and his father probably was a real aggressive businessman. And maybe he was left behind a little bit because their attention went on the brother to try to get him well. That's good, interesting insight. So what do you think about these politicians like Adam Kinzinger who go up against Trump, Ma?

What do you think? I don't think it's the right thing either, though. You don't like that either. Why is that? Because it fires Trump up more than the people that are not, I don't like to use intelligent. Right. The uneducated people get more fired up when they see that happen at, right? Yes. Right. Right. All right. Well, I appreciate you joining the show this week, Ma. Thank you. Thank you. All right. I love you.

I love you. All right. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was Open Book. Thank you for listening. If you like what you hear, tell your friends and make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. While you're there, please leave us a rating or review. If you want to connect with me or chat more about the discussions, it's at Scaramucci on Twitter or Instagram. You can also text me at plus 1, 917, 909-29-9-6. I'd love to hear from you.

I'll see you back here next week.