Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - The Spread of Lies with Bill Adair

Episode Date: October 24, 2024

In this conversation, Bill Adair discusses the epidemic of political lying, particularly focusing on the impact of Donald Trump on political discourse and the evolution of fact-checking. He reflects on his background as a journalist and the founding of PolitiFact, emphasizing the need for accountability in media and politics. Bill also shares his 'Lying Hall of Fame' to explore historical figures and events that have shaped the landscape of political dishonesty. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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from authors and historians to figures and entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe, wherever you get your podcast, and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the parts you're enjoying or how we can do better. You know, I can roll with the punches, so let me know. Anyways, let's get to it. There is a lot of political dishonesty out there. We all know it, and we all see it.

Trump marked a significant increase in this political lying, but it didn't just start there. As my guest today, Bill Adair tells us there are many things that have led us here. It's frightening, and there's been severe consequences, but there is a way out. Let's go to the conversation. So joining us now is Bill Adair. an award-winning journalist and pioneer in political fact-checking, which, man, do we need a lot of these days. The title of the book, Beyond the Big Lie, the epidemic of political lying, why Republicans do it more and how it could burn down our democracy. So I feel the democracy's already burning,

by the way. And the only thing I don't like about your title is the fuse is too long. See, that's one of Trump's long ties there. But, you know, I think it's already burning. I think it's burning through, but we're going to talk about it, Bill. But before I get to the book, I want to talk a little bit about your background because you have a fascinating story of how you got to be who you are. Let's start there. And then I want to go to the founding of Politifact in 2007. Sure. So my background is as a newspaper reporter, I covered a lot of different things. I covered local government. I covered transportation. For about 10 years, I was an aviation reporter. My first book was about a plane crash. It was a behind the scenes account of how the NTSB solves a plane crash mystery

called the Mystery of Flight 427. I switched to covering politics in about 2000. I was with Al Gore the night that he won the presidency in Nashville, Tennessee. And I loved covering politics, but I realized that we needed to do more fact-checking. And so I went to my editors of the St. Petersburg Times, And I said, hey, let's start a fact-checking website. There had been some fact-checking, some great work by fact-check.org, an organization from the University of Pennsylvania. But I wanted to do it differently. I wanted to do it with a truthometer, which would provide ratings that would summarize the journalism that we did in a catchy way. But there would still be journalism behind it.

And so we started PolitiF Act in 2007. we fact-checked the 2008 campaign, and then we won the Pulitzer Prize for national reporting in 2009, which was a pretty big deal. We were the first website to win a Pulitzer Prize, and we sparked a lot of the fact-checking that goes on today, both in the United States and around the world. So very proud of that. And I would also add that it's a sore. I mean, people go to that to hear the truth. I mean, they hear something from a politician. I'll like, okay, let me check a politic fact.

And you guys, if you say it's true, then people say, all right, must be true. So I give you credit on that. Obviously, we need more of that in politics, but we have more lying. Okay. And you write about that, which, and you write about it brilliantly. This gentleman here, Donald Trump, who's represented on the cover of your book. My editor wondered, I'm glad to see you picked up on that. My editor wondered if people would get the, get the,

get the red tie as as Trump. Yeah. Of course. And everyone gets that. So your editor probably doesn't realize that. But, you know, the problem with the whole thing is that we couldn't stop Trump from lying. And so I used to go to rallies with him. I did 71 campaign stops with him.

We all own this, by the way. And so I've owned it more openly than others. But I'm not really exactly sure our other people can live with themselves. But we would come up from the campaign rally. He'd go back up onto the plane. I'd look over at him and say, what the hell did you say that for? That wasn't anywhere near the truth. He would be loosening that red tie and getting himself another shirt.

He always changed shirts in between these rallies. And he would say, what the hell difference does it make? No one cares. In fact, if I say it often enough, people will believe it. He told Leslie Stahl that. You know, he said that if I just keep repeating it, there's a large enough group of people. Trump is a smart guy. People shouldn't underestimate him.

He once said to me, you know, a billion people know who will. I am. A half of a billion of those people hate my effing guts. He goes, but think of the possibilities on the other half a billion. And he's selling them Bibles and Bitcoins and all different types of things. So I guess the point is, did Trump make it worse for all of us? Because now politicians look at this say, okay, Trump, I mean, I thought I was a medium-based lie. All politicians lie. You know, that's the same way you and I are breathing. And so, but now Trump has like made it even bigger. Am I wrong? Oh, no, absolutely. You know, I, I, I think. think one thing I do in the book, there's a rather than write an ordinary kind of dull chapter

on the history of lying, you know, if you're like me, you see a chapter like that and you sort of skim over it. I wrote it like this. I wrote it as the lying hall of fame. Who or what deserves to be in the lying hall of fame. Now, obviously Donald Trump does, but I went back and looked at prominent people and things that sort of set us on this course for where we are today. And so I chose an interesting mix that includes Roger Ailes and Rupert Murdoch, because I think they've been really important. Big Tobacco and ExxonMobil, because I think they sort of established the way that corporations can lie. I chose different presidents ranging from Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon. and then, of course, Trump.

But one figure who a lot of people said was really important, because let's remember, and you noted this, political lying didn't begin with Donald Trump. And although he is by far the biggest liar that we've had in American history, this problem was a huge problem before he came along. So when did that change? Well, for the Republican Party, I think it changed with Newt. When Newt Gingrich came along in the early 90s, a lot of people I interviewed told me that really changed the culture of the Republican Party.

And it created the sort of anything goes to win mentality. Now, some people I interviewed take it back further and put more credit to Ailes and when Ailes worked for Nixon in the 1960s. But the consensus seemed to be more for Newt Gingrich, who really changed. change that culture. But you're right. I mean, Trump just in a whole different league. And then what's scary is the way that the other people in the Republican Party echo his lies. The way they just say, the way they will go along with what he says, repeat what he says, defend what he says. And that's really frightening. So I want to address something with you that we know is also true. Vice President Harris tells lies. Joe Biden tells him. Hillary Clinton told them. You know, there's one

famous American president that hated it more than anybody. That was Dwight Eisenhower. There's a great interview of him. He's in Gettysburg. He's retired. Cronkite goes to see him. And he says, yeah, my two big regrets, I lied about the U-2 space plane. I remember that. He said it was a weather balloon. And then, you know, the CIA told him the pilot was dead. Of course, Francis Gary Powers was not dead. And then he lied about it for Joe McCarthy related to MacArthur. So how did we go from 65 short years ago, a five-star general who was the American president and had some level of rectitude to where we are today. How does that, how does that downward shift happen so aggressively built? So that's summed up by a couple people who use the same word, Anthony, with me. Shame is gone.

And politicians don't feel the shame that they used to feel about lying. So why is that? So a couple of factors. One is gerrymandering. Their constituents are so gerrymandered that they're either all very Democratic or all very Republican. And so when these House members go to their town halls, they're hearing cheers and applause. they're not hearing many moderates who are like, you know, you got caught the other day saying something I don't think you should have said. So their districts are echo chamber. Then the media has

been depleted at the local level. So there's not much local journalism that's questioning these guys for what they say. So they come up through the house, through state legislative offices, and they're not held accountable to what they say. And so they're not for. feeling shame. They're feeling like, oh, I can do anything I want. And so I really think that's a major difference from the way it used to be back in the 60s and 70s when House members had districts where they had to run and win the middle. They weren't so gerrymandered. And the partisan media, and this is another huge factor, of course, the partisan media wasn't a factor back then the way it is today. Today you have a partisan media that not only doesn't hold them accountable for their

lies, but it feeds off of it. Think about what we saw after the big lie of the 2020 election. Fox lost viewers because it wouldn't go along with the big lie. So telling the truth was bad business for Fox. That's really scary. And so all of that contributes to this environment where politicians don't feel shame. And so we need to change that environment back so that there are more incentives for telling the truth. Okay. So there's a couple of things that are in here that are really disturbing to me. Okay. And I want to go to the January 6th situation and the lies that radicalized people on January 6th and the story of Nina Jankowitz. Can you take us through that? Sure. So the Nina story was really disturbing to me, too.

So Nina Jankowitz was a very dedicated expert in disinformation. She graduated from Bryn Mawr College. She wanted to dedicate herself to public service. And she took a job at the Department of Homeland Security running a new group that was supposed to be sort of an internal coordinating group that would help DHS agencies all coordinate their efforts on. disinformation. It was given probably the worst name in the history of naming federal agencies. It was called the Disinformation Governance Board. And then DHS, which has never had a good public affairs or communications organization, they, instead of telling people what this thing was going to do and not do, they just leaked the news about it to Politico, which put out a four sentence or three

sentence blurb about it in Politico Playbook. And so that was all people read about the disinformation governance board, something that sounded like it came from George Orwell. So the DHS said nothing about it. And so the void was filled by Republicans who just made stuff up. And within hours, it just spiraled into lie after lie after lie that it was going to censor the internet and they were going to limit what you could say and on and on and on. And it was the ministry of truth. So it was really scary what happened. Suddenly, Nina Jenkowitz, dedicated public servant, is worrying about her safety. She goes to bed the first night, puts chairs under the doorknobs of her house because she's worried somebody's going to break in. And she starts getting death threats

because people in conservative media are saying terrible things about her, making things up all the time, making things up about the ministry of truth. And so now there's there are multiple villains in this. And one of the bad guys is DHS for not explaining what this thing was going to do and not do. So I was fascinated by this story. As a Washington journalist for many years, I was I was fascinated. by how DHS bungled how this came out. So her story is sort of the backbone of the book because it's a story of not just political lying, but how Washington works and doesn't work. So it's interesting, you know, it's coincidental about a week before that fiasco

and her ultimate resignation, which was Scaramucci like, by the way, I think it only lasted about a half of a Scaramucci. She was on my podcast, and we were interviewing her related to her book on, quote, unquote, how to win the information more. And the reason I brought it up is that a lot of elements of what was going on in her book are in your book that we now have people that have just decided that their path to power is going to be through lying.

And they also know that because we've segmented the media, this is really my question, is the segmentation that's taken place, Bill, in the media, further this. So meaning you said something, you know, Fox said the minute they stopped the lying, they lost viewers. You know, does the segmentation and the media reinforce certain lies on both sides? Oh, absolutely. And here's what I do with my students.

So I have, I teach at Duke undergrads, and I teach a couple different courses, news writing. I also teach a course that's called News as Moral Battleground. And the way I recommend my students consume media is I tell. them to think of it like the food pyramid. So the base of the food pyramid is news, consume news. The middle is analysis, like consume analysis. And then a little bit of opinion. But don't make opinion journalism the bulk of your diet. And then at the top, always try to consume at least one serving every day of an opinion you disagree with. So, listen to a podcast that from someone you disagree with or read a column you disagree with,

but try every day to consider something that you disagree with. But that, I call it Bill's Media Consumption Pyramid, the whole idea of that is to get back to this healthy diet. What's happening instead? People are just consuming opinion journalism from their side. And I don't think that's healthy. And so, but that reflects what you're alluding to, Anthony, which is this fragmentation of the media. And that just, you know, that sort of puts us into our own tribes. And it makes it harder for us to understand the other side. It makes it harder for us to have a conversation. And so I think that's why I tell my students consume something every day that you disagree with. Yeah. So, I mean, It's a, I don't know, it says it's a weird situation.

You know, you have in the book the Lying Hall of Fame, which I love, okay, because you've got people in there like Lyndon Johnson, Bill Clinton, who you describe, and I'll quote you, an unusually good liar. I mean, he could lie with great sincerity. And of course, there's just Donald Trump that's almost like a rambling liar. And the weird thing about Trump is he's lying right to your face. You know he's lying. But for whatever reason, people have decided to accept it.

So I'll ask you about Trump and lying. So did you ever feel, did he have a need to justify his lies? I mean, from what you were saying earlier, indiscriminate, shameless lying. And why do you think he lied? Because it worked. It was effective. And he gained what by lying, do you think? So I think he gained the, you know, I think he felt that if he lied, it felt good to people.

If I tell you that I'm going to balance the budget in four years and I'm brand new to the scene, I'm a brand new politician. So I'm not Bill Clinton, Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, you picked the politician. I'm new to the scene. There's a group of people out in America. I say, wait a minute, he's a businessman. He was on the apprentice. he's a successful guy, maybe, maybe he can balance the budget in four years. Maybe he can do that. And so with the lie bill comes hope. Sure. With the lie comes cognitive dissidents. You know, I've got two choices.

They're both bad choices, but he's promising me something that the other side isn't. You know, of course, he went on to create $7.8 trillion of deficit spending. So just people understand that, that's George Washington to George W. Bush, $7 trillion. And then Donald Trump, $7.8 trillion in four years. So it's not only a lie, it's just a ridiculous antipode

to the reality that Trump actually represents. But you have this lying hall of fame. Talk us through some of those, and how did you rank them? Sure. Well, I was careful not to rank them, but at one point, I was musing that if you built the lying hall of fame,

that it would be like on Lake Erie next to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and, you know, what would the exhibits be? My goal, though, was really to be a tour of lying through modern history. Now, I don't have every conceivable person in there. It was more a creative way to discuss the modern history of lying. But you mentioned a few, you know, I have those presidents. obviously I include Trump. One unusual thing in my long-lying Hall of Fame is the couch from Fox and Freds.

And my reasoning for that was I had included Murdoch because Murdoch is bigger than Fox. You know, Murdoch is responsible for this global empire of different kinds of media, some of which has told some colossal lies over the years. And I interviewed my friend David Fulkenflick, who's written a great book about Murdoch called Murdoch's World. But then I also wanted to recognize the technique that one of Murdoch's properties, the Fox News Channel, uses. So I included the couch from Fox and Friends.

And if you ever watch that show, it's a work of art. The way that the hosts sit on that couch and sit, slyly serve up propaganda. And I, I, you know, as a, as a reporter who covers this stuff, I am just so impressed with what they do. So, so I included that also. Okay. And I, and I, and I've been on that couch and the funny thing about that couch is, I don't even think they realize they're lying anymore. I think they're in the soup. I think it's just a little bit of a, It's like a Jones Town situation where people believe each other, even though it's implausible. All right.

So we're at the point in the podcast where my team and I, we came up with five words that we called from your book. So I'm going to read out the word, and then I want you to give me a one or two sentence reaction to the word. Okay. You ready? Yep. I say the word Democrat. Lies some struggles to communicate. effectively, yeah, lies some struggles to communicate effectively.

Okay. But, you know, both have the problem. I say the word Republican. By far the biggest liars in our political system, crippling our political discourse. And by the way, the fish thinks from the head down, so they've all taken Trump's lead and they've all become mega liars. Okay. All right. So I'm going to say the word fact. The atomic unit of a healthy political discourse. Okay. And what about a lie? The element that is polluting our political discourse and needs to be dealt with. Okay. Are we immune, though? Are we immunized from the lies now where we just we glaze over. The lies are coming in. We know their lies.

I don't think it's immunity. I think it's, fatigue. I think that we're so weary of it. And we've gotten to a point where we don't know what's true. And it's just sad. And I hope we can get back to a discourse that is more fact-based. Okay. So the title of the book is beyond the big lie, the epidemic of political lying, why Republicans do it more and how it could burn down our democracy. And so, Bill, it's great to talk to you. you make me worried though, Bill, okay? I want to keep my hair line going into my 70s, so you're going to make me lose my hair.

I spend more time with you. I'm worried, Bill. Got me worried. But thank you so much for joining us on Open Book. Thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed this. The epidemic of lying is upon us. Now, you could have asked somebody in the 1950s the following question,

when does a politician lie? And they would all say when their mouths are moving. But this type of lying today is exponential. And this type of lying, which I find to be astonishing, is about the facts. So we can see the facts before us and that politicians on either side of the equation will lie to you about what you can see right in front of you. So this is sort of a scary thing now. And believe it or not, Trump is one of the better ones at it.

He lies convincingly. And even though you may not know that it isn't true, you still sort of want to believe him. This is the compulsion of wanting to see. the best in somebody. So Trump says to you, I'm going to balance the budget in four years. This colossal problem known as the U.S. budget deficit, impossible to do it, would be possible to do it if he was even trying. But of course, he doesn't try. And the budget grows by $7.8 trillion from 2017 to 2021. So the lying is pernicious. The lying is real. But Bill, what I love about Bill's book, he talks about ways to stop it. He talks about ways to authentically verify things.

make things clearer and more accurate, which will hopefully improve our democracy and make for more informed voters. It was a phenomenal book. I hope you'll go out and buy it, beyond the big lie. All right, you want to come on the podcast? Yeah, go ahead. All right. And then I'm going to come see you around 5 o'clock, all right? Okay. All right, Ma, so today, lower the TV, though. It's lower the TV. It's too loud. Okay, I got it. I had another big author on talking about all these lies. Okay, this guy's name was Bill Adair, and he thinks that the lying has gotten worse in politics. Do you think,

okay, you're 88 years old, been around the block. Do you think the lying has gotten worse, or you think the lying is basically the same? Right. So like what the eating the dogs and stuff like that, just lying through his ass, right? Well, I don't know, even if it was true, I think that it hurt. I thought it was a terrible thing. Especially, especially the Hispanic community that I know. I think He lost a lot of votes doing that. So that was really stupid. But mom, has the lying, you're 88 years old. Not yet.

Not yet. Not yet. I don't want to age, my guess. I know you focused on your health and beauty and your skin products. We're going to get there in a second. But is 87 in change here? Are they lying more? Are the politicians lying more?

Are they lying the same amount? Or are they lying less? We know they're not lying less. So more or the same? Well, let's put it like this. I think someone like breakfast. President Truman. I don't think he was a liar.

I love the world. All right. All right. So they've gotten worse, then. Your opinion, they've gotten worse. Yeah, they could have worse. Yeah. All right.

Thanks, Mom. I love you very much, baby. All right, bye. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was Open Book. Thank you for listening. If you like what you hear, tell your friends, and make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. While you're there, please leave us a rating or review.

If you want to connect with me or chat more about the discussions, it's at Scaramucci on Twitter or Instagram. I'd love to hear from you. I'll see you back here next week. When a country's productivity cycle is broken, people feel it in their paychecks, their communities, their futures. What does this mean for individuals, communities, and businesses across the country? Join business leaders, policymakers, and influencers for CGs' national series on the Canadian Standard of Living, Productivity, and Innovation. Learn what's driving Canada's productivity decline and discover actionable solutions to reverse it.