Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - The Spy Who Seduced America with Sonia Purnell

Episode Date: July 23, 2025

This week on Open Book, Anthony talks with Sonia Purnell about her book 'Kingmaker,' which chronicles the life of Pamela Harriman, a woman who navigated the complexities of power, seduction, and intrigue in the political landscape of the 20th century. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is Open Book, where I talk to some of the brightest minds about everything surrounding the written word. That's everything. That's from authors and historians to figures in entertainment, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Before we dive in, make sure to follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to leave a review. Good or bad, I want to hear from you. I want to hear whether you're enjoying it or where we can improve. And I can take the hits. So let me know. If you don't like something, say it straight. Now let's get into it. Welcome to Open Book. I am your host, Anthony Scaramucci. Joining us today is Sonia Pernell. She's a best-selling author, a prize-winning author. But this book is phenomenal.

And Sonia, I can't tell you much. I appreciate you coming on. The title of the book is Kingmaker, Pamela Harriman's Astonishing Life of Power, Sedona. deduction and intrigue. But of course, she didn't start out as Pamela Harriman, right? No, she's absolutely not. She started off as Pamela Digby, a Brit, the eldest child of a slightly impoverished peer down in the southwest of England who just wanted a quiet life, anything for a quiet life.

But his eldest daughter had very, very different views. She wanted to do anything for an exciting life to play a role, to be a player. And that's what kind of drove her initially. But things didn't go according to plan in her first few years. I mean, she was a great failure as a debutante. No one asked her to marry them. Her first season just went nowhere. She was considered a little plump, a little pushy.

She'd had no education to speak of or formal education. But unlike most young women of her class and her generation, She was born in 1920. She was totally thrilled and fascinated and gripped by world events and politics and the military and knowing that war was coming. And in fact, she asked Unity Mitford to introduce her to Hitler when she was being Finnish in Munich. I mean, unbelievably, the British posh classes still sent their daughters to Munich to be finished in 1937. We look back at that now and we think, are those people crazy?

but she met Hitler and was rather underwhelmed by him, actually, in person. But this kind of just fed her appetite to be part of the big picture. She's going to marry into a very politically important family. But it's a mixed family, right? Because, you know, Churchill doesn't get to the prime ministership to the age of 65. And she's marrying somebody that she knows is not super well, am I right? So tell us the story about how she gets involved with the church. Churchill family. Yeah, so she hadn't received any proposals of marriage, and that's what she'd been

brought up to do, nothing else really. The more breaks out, and she receives a phone call from Randolph Churchill, Churchill's only son, inviting her to dinner. And she doesn't have any other offers that night, so she goes along in some astonishment. Her father had always warned her off the Churchill's, by the way. He thought they were rather rackety political chancellor types, but she was intrigued. They go out to dinner. He ignores her all the way through, talks to everyone else in Quaglino's, the restaurant, until coffee. When he turns around, looks at her intently and says to her, you look healthy enough to bear my son. Will you marry me? And by the way, she didn't know then. She found out soon he'd asked eight other women the

previous fortnight to marry him. And they'd all said, no, quite wisely as it turns out. she didn't know that much about him. And she said, yes, because she saw this as a way out of Dorset, way out of the quiet life chosen by her parents and into the glittering world of London and society and politics. What was the spark in her? Like, what was something that you saw that other biographers didn't see? Well, you know, because you're, you know, I want to talk a little bit about Clementine

at the end of this, if you don't mind, but you identify things in people. What was her spark? What was something that you said, I have to write about this woman? Well, I try to give people a fair hearing, and I tried to really look into what they did as opposed to what people said they did. So I was very fortunate that Pamela Harriman's papers were finally going to be released at the Library of Congress, and they were a treasure trove, because that generation wrote everything down. They kept every letter. They kept every doctor's visit, every menu card, all of these things.

So all sorts of things were there. But I also knew that there were a lot of people who'd seen what she'd done in her life, who was still then alive. We keep losing them every day. So we're racing against time to talk to these people. But, you know, I spoke to Bill Clinton about her, and he told an extraordinary story that really no one else had told. And I spoke to President Shiraka France is no longer with us, but a lot of his chief advisors are.

And I spoke to them. And they told me a story about just what she'd done for this world behind closed doors, what she'd done for peace. And again, that was a story that deserved to get out there. So I just knew that there was something there that hadn't been told. And one of the reasons I knew, as you mentioned, Clementine Churchill, I'd previously written a book about her, so she was Pamela's first mother-in-law. and Clementine and Winston Churchill had chosen Pamela, a young woman of 20, as I said with no education,

they relied on her at the highest level of geopolitics to perform an extraordinary role. Because I knew a little about that and because I then found out a whole lot more, I realised that she had very, very special gifts and special intuition and a real determination to do her bit for the war effort and subsequently. other things for the world. So that's what intrigued me. I mean, she divides opinion. Some people are just damning about her. But actually, if you peel back the curtain, you'll find that she did the most extraordinary things behind the scenes. I mean, I'm just dying to ask you this question. I was debating whether or not to ask it, but I'm going to ask it. Was she a spy? She was a spy for Winston?

Not an MI6 spy. Yeah. But was she a spy for Winston Churchill? And did he have a sense for his dalliance? He sort of addressed a little bit of it of the book, but you don't directly hit that target. Okay. So what depends what you mean by a spy? I mean, a spy to me sounds like quite a hostile person.

She certainly, I mean, you're talking about sort of on America and Americans here. So we're talking about during Second World War, what she was doing was certainly not hostile. What she was doing was actually trying to obtain secrets and intelligence and ideas and thinking at the highest levels from America and Americans to pass back to Winston. What is a hostile act, but to shore up that Anglo-American alliance, which was the only thing that was going to win the Second World War, obviously the alliance with Soviet Russia was precarious at all time. So this was the only thing that was going to bring about victory. And yes, she did. She did seduce important Americans, Averill Harriman, Jock Whitney,

Major General Friend Anderson, Bill Paley, a whole bunch of others, all strategically chosen. She almost married Edward R. Murrow, right? She almost married him, right? She did, Edmund Murray, exactly. And these people were not just sort of, you know, random. They were chosen strategically for her to get close to,

to find out things, but also to kind of peddle the British cause to them. And in fact, many of them went back to Washington at various times and were accused of being almost unduly pro-British. She was so good at her job. And it's interesting that now professors of diplomacy describe Pamela's, if you like, strategic sex life as very much part of what eventually led to what we call the special relationship.

I mean, that didn't exist back then. There were no real back channels between London and Washington, colonial history, kind of still cast its shadow over relations between the two. There was quite a lot of resentment and distrust. So what she was doing actually helped overturn that and create something entirely new in history. In her obituaries, you write about this, and I pluck this from your book. I'm going to just read a few if you don't mind. A manipulator, a socialite, a cortesian.

You take a totally different stance on it. suppose you were to write her obituary, what do you see as her real influence? Well, actually, we'd all probably actually include those words. She could manipulate people. She was very clever at it. Even if she didn't take men to her bed, she seduced them in another way, and they ended up doing things that she wanted them to do. So she was able to, with extraordinary charm and charisma, magnetism, is not too strong.

word, was able to persuade people to do things that she wanted them to do, whether they were presidents of the United States or, you know, very important people in the US Air Force. And so what she was able to do, she operated very close to the center of power in Britain in the 1940s, in America in the 1990s, and in France in the 1990s. She shaped history. She helped bring about victory in the Second World War by shoring up. that Anglo-American alliance in her own very special way. And then much later, she shaped American politics. Bill Clinton, if he was joining us now, would say, oh, yeah, yeah, she was a big part

in me getting into the White House after a long stretch of Republican rule. So, yeah, she shaped politics there. And then when she became American ambassador to Paris in 1993, she got very, very close to President Chirac of France, and was described by the French to me as invisible, as having played an invisible but decisive role in putting together the alliance that brought peace to Bosnia after the ethnic cleansing of the 1990s. So those are just a few things she did. She also went to see And drop off in Moscow towards the end of the Cold War and was able to bring back a message to Washington that the Russian.

were perhaps finally open to compromise and talks that would eventually lead to the end of the Cold War. So she was a geopolitical player. She was someone who understood human nature and the male ego and how to bring people together and get results. And a lot of Democrats get in touch with me now, having read the book and said, hey, we could really do with a Pamela Harriman right now to turn around our fortune. because we're not doing it very well by ourselves.

So, you know, she really was someone who made a difference in life. And yet, you know, she was also someone who was constantly written off and vilified by people. But behind the closed doors, wow, was she a powerful figure? Visit BetMGM Casino and check out the newest exclusive. The Price is Right Fortune Pick. BetMDM and Game Sense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only.

Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling, or someone close to you. Peace contact connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor, free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming, Ontario. I want to go back, and in your book for me, there was a triangle. It could have been a square or even a trapezoid, but it was really a triangle. And the triangle was Clementine Churchill, Winston Churchill, and Pamela Churchill.

And what I'm leaving Al Randolph is that I think both parents knew that he was unwell. Both parents knew that he had issues related to his self-image, depression, alcoholism, etc. And they were almost quite forgiving of their daughter-in-law in a way that perhaps us here in the 21st century, you know, we sort of helicopter over our children and we, you know, they're the best, no matter why, they get the participation. trophy no matter what, but the Churchill seemed to be pretty on point with their son. So describe that dynamic and describe the sort of, I'll call it diplomacy, family diplomacy between the Mr. and Mrs. Churchill and their son and their daughter-in-law. Well, it's fascinating, isn't it? So Randolph was the only son, and for a long time Churchill spoiled him rotten. He was introduced to, you know, mail-only dinners, the big political players of the day. And they were shushed so that the young teenage Randolph could speak. Well, this was not bringing up Randolph in a very sensible way because he became actually really, I'm afraid, quite obnoxious.

He had that extraordinary self-regard, but it overlay a lot of insecurity underneath. he could be incredibly charming but also increasingly a bully. He drank too much and he also became rough and abusive. Now, the Churchill's were deeply horrified by this. Clementine was always rather awkward with her son. She found him difficult. Churchill still loved him but liked him less and less. And crucially, we've got to think about what was it like during the war. I mean, Britain was desperate, absolutely desperate, was clinging on to survival. You could not have a son who was a security risk, which is what Randolph was. And so they gradually, and then quite quickly, pushed him out from the family circle more and more and more because they couldn't rely on him

to keep his mouth shut and to do the right thing. At the same time, they realized that Pamela was someone they could rely on and seem to have this extraordinary intuition about people and able to charm them into doing things that were necessary. And so they relied on her and she was brought into this tiny group of people called Padlock, with whom all the secrets basically of the war were shared. And that was the case with Pamela. And so they relied on her enormously. And we're talking about when she's in her early 20s, 231, 22, I don't know what you were like back then, but the thought that she was handling all this stuff at such young age is really, I think shows how remarkable she was. Now, Randall was intensely jealous.

and actually never forgave his parents for what he saw as privileging the national interest over his marriage, but that marriage was never going to last, particularly after she gave him his son and heir as required. But it wasn't just with Randolph that it caused difficulties. It was also the sisters, Randolph's sisters, found it quite hard, particularly Mary and Diana. They were, I think, jealous of how close Pamela was to Winston, who they saw as a god and to Clementine 2. And, you know, Pamela remained close with Clementine throughout our whole life. And Winston paid her a pension out of his own pocket of £500 a year from the war onwards in recognition of just what she'd done.

So it's extraordinary how she was brought in. In fact, one of Churchill's private secretaries once said how difficult it was to get close to, Churchill describing it as a game of snakes and ladders. Every time you thought you were getting in there, something would happen and you'd be pushed back out again, Pamela never had that problem. She was right in there, and that's where she stayed for the rest of her life. I mean, that in itself is a tribute to her diplomacy and who she was and the realness of the folks. So so many lovers, so many different lovers, okay, such a fascinating woman, Sonia. So who was her true love? Does she have a true love?

I think it was Jenny and Ellie. I think she. She was fond of her. That was my guess. So he was the heir and the feudal of the Fiat Empire. He was an Italian. So obviously had been an enemy during the Second World War. They met a few years afterwards. She was a bit reluctant because he was Italian because his company and his family

had enriched himself so much supplying both Hitler and Mussolini. But she saw what he was trying to do firstly after the war, that he was trying to keep the communist. at bay, that he was trying to restore the Italian economy, but that needed him to rehabilitate his own reputation and that of fear, because the Americans were thinking about confiscating fear for good from the Annelles. And she saw sort of a chance to do some good to play a part, once again. So she introduced Annelli to JFK and to Churchill, Churchill, very reluctant to begin with, made sure that the Americans began to see him as a potential ally, an important

figure who could be a real stabilizing influence in Europe after the war when nothing was, we begin to, you know, sometimes we think now, oh, everything was fine after the war. No, it wasn't. It was really unstable. But they could see, thanks to her, that Anielli could play a really important part. So it was a transactional relationship between them, certainly, in it for her, a wonderful Paris apartment, a butler, an amazing custom-made, Bentley car, lots of money, all the rest of it, diamonds, jewels, a go-go. But actually, they really loved each other. And even though they split after four years, as she said, we split up, but we never parted.

And he called her every single day for the rest of her life at seven every morning. They remained incredibly close. And I think that towards the end of their lives, they really regretted that they never married because they probably were very suited to each other. And there was such an electricity between them. But she was a common sense woman, right? I mean, she had some financial difficulties after the war. She split up with Randolph. And so she ends up marrying some people that sort of for her and her and Jacqueline Kennedy, O'Nassas have a little bit in common.

they're marrying people to fortify their financial base and their lifestyle. Is that fair to say, or am I going, am I overreaching? Well, I think sort of her love affairs in Europe during the late 40s and 50s, certainly. I mean, one of them was with Elie de Rothschild, and Nelly himself gave her a great deal of money rather more than Ellie did. She had flings with Stavros Nyakas, one of the great shipping tycoons. This is all true, and she really, in effect, became a courtesan. This is not something she really wanted to do, but she was not someone who'd go and get a job.

I mean, she couldn't write down on a resume what she'd done during the war. It was all taught secret. She had no qualifications. She couldn't just apply for something at NATO, much as she would like to have done, later having just been set up, of course. So she saw the way to an interesting life was to attach herself to a person with an interesting life, and a lot of women did that in those days because they didn't have much choice. So she made quite a lot of money doing this as is true,

but then she married Leland Hayward, who was this Broadway producer, had the great hit with the sound of music, but never managed to replicate that. And in fact, drained her bank account so much to fund his lifestyle that when he died, and he needed a lot of looking after, she really became his nanny-stroke nurse, who's an alcoholic, had many issues. And when he dies, and she went to buy a black dress for the funeral to her horror and astonishment, there was nothing, not a dollar left in the bank account. And Nancy Astor had to buy the dress instead.

Lucky to have wealthy friends, obviously. But so it didn't always go according to plan. And she wasn't ever that interested in showbiz. It was always about politics. And then she met Avril Harriman again, her great lover during the war. And they married a few months later. And then really the kind of the second act.

So if you like, the second act of her political life begins in Georgetown, and she creates his house, transforms it into this great hub for the Democratic Party. The Van Gogh over the mantel piece in the drawing and helping to kind of encourage people to, yeah, let's go around to Pamela's house and discuss what we need to do. And the wine list, the wine list, too. She was impeccable with that, so. Oh, yeah. The food, the wine, the art,

everything. Everything was magical and seductive and alluring and everyone wanted to go around to Pamela's house. So, I mean, she's just such a fascinating woman and I find you to be an incredible writer. So before I let you go, I got to ask this last question and then I have a few fun things to do with you. But how do you find the subjects? Like, what do you, like, when you're thinking about what to write about. How do you stumble upon the subject or how does the new Tony and apple hit you in the head? This is the person I'm going to write about. Oh, Anthony, I wish it was easy. It's not. I mean, each time it's a strange little tale. So I stumbled across with Clementine Churchill, Clementine, that book, I stumbled across the letter that she wrote him in 1940,

where she's telling him off for being rough and overbearing and sarcastic with his staff. And I thought, wow, that's quite a strong letter. And then I looked at the diaries of his entourage, and I saw that his behavior really did change as a result. So that that piqued my curiosity. So what else did she do in his life? How else did she influence him? And then I'd just go with all these papers and interviews and things no one had ever bothered to look at before. So there was this whole story about really, you've got two Churchill for the price of one,

and he depended on her utterly, which he did admit saying that nothing in his life would have been possible without her. And writing about her introduced me to Pamela. So I always thought I'd love to write about Pamela one day when her papers become available at the Library of Congress, which is what eventually happened. So that kind of, you know, was interesting. And then I stumbled across all sorts of things with Nelson Mandela and Joe Biden and Frank Sinatra and so on and so forth. And then in between, my own father was in what he called the cloak and dagger world for a while. And so I was always keen to write about his spy. I stumbled across the mentions of Virginia Hall, this great American spy in the Second World War,

an extraordinary woman, you know, with a wooden leg, she called Kaftbert, considered by the Gestapo and the most dangerous Allied spy of all in France. But, you know, she was such a good spy, and she was so secretive that no one had really been able to get her life story together because it's so difficult. And I saw that as a bit of a challenge. I spent three and a half years playing detective, had a few strokes. of luck would have helped from a former MI6 officer and a former CIA officer, which certainly helped a lot, and put that story together. So these are all stories about women who did far more for the world than the world had ever realized before. Maybe no one was crazy enough to take on

these stories and all this detective work, but I kind of saw it as my job. And I'm now considering someone else I can't tell you about yet. But I think again, did. It's a good. extraordinary things that we kind of need to know about. I love it. I'll look forward to it, and hopefully you'll come back on Open Book. So at the end of these podcasts, we come up with five words or people, my producer and I. And so we ask our authors, just a word or two or a sentence, I'm going to say the person's name. I want to get your reaction.

Okay, you ready? Uh-huh. Okay. Boris Johnson. Disaster. Okay. And everyone else who's ever met him. Okay.

You share my friend Neil Ferguson's view of that. Okay, Clementine Churchill. Misunderstood, overlooked. We owe her a lot. One of the people who saw that was the American ambassador at the time, Gil Wynent. He said if the future breeze, historians of understanding, then Clementine Churchill will finally get her due. I saw that as a bit of a challenge again.

She really was incredible. Well, and again, I think it's important for people to know that the firing or the calling home of Joseph B. Kennedy and Winer replacing him was a big move and a big help to both countries at that time. Okay, Virginia Hall. Resilient, courageous, inspirational. Someone I think about every day, whenever I have a problem or a challenge, I try to think what would Virginia do? I love it.

Okay. So let's go to Pamela. Pamela Churchill Hamilton. Extraordinary. gifted a one-off tricksy, incredibly sexy, surprising, powerful, divisive, but ultimately misunderstood, hopefully until now, hopefully I've been able to explain. Yeah, no, it's an incredible book. I mean, I have referred your book to many people they want to learn about this,

and I'm a little bit of an official. You know, James Holland is a friend of mine, and I said, you have to absolutely read this book, is he's such an aficionado of World War II, but this is just really what goes on in war and crisis. Okay, the last word, and I'm going to give you the last word, is the title of your book, which is a kingmaker. So what is a kingmaker to Sonia? A kingmaker, I think, is almost as powerful as the king, because they choose, they shape,

they promote, and they project whoever it is who finally takes that hot seat. if they play their cards right, they retain this extraordinary power behind the scenes. At the time, people may be unaware of, but afterwards when we look back, we realize how they may well have shaped history. Well, I mean, it says it's a fascinating read. You're a fascinating person. I'm looking forward to the next biography. Sonia Pernel, thank you so much for joining us. The title of the book is Kingmaker.

Pamela Harriman's astonishing life of power, seduction, and intrigue. And boy, there's all of that. You know, I was at the Ritz Hotel last month, and I took my wife down to the pool. And I looked at her, I said, you probably are not aware of this, but about 30 years ago, a very important figure in the history of World War II had a cerebral hemorrhage in this pool. And unfortunately, she died a few days after. But anyway, I applaud your work, and I really appreciate her. I appreciate you coming on today. Thank you. Anthony, thanks so much for the invite. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was Open Book. Thank you so much for listening. If you like what you hear, tell your friends, and make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast.

While you're there, please leave us a rating or review. If you want to connect with me or chat more about the discussions, it's at Scaramucci on X or Instagram. I'd love to hear from you. I'll see you back here next week.