Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - "They Should've Been Dead": How 3 Men Survived 28 Hours Surrounded by Sharks - Michael J. Tougias

Episode Date: July 2, 2026

They made a vow to survive together, no blame, no panic, just 28 hours of pure will against sharks, jellyfish, and the open ocean. My guest, Michael Tougias, lived inside this story for years to bring it to you, and I promise you'll never look at the water the same way again. This episode is special! Michael J. Tougias is a New York Times bestselling author and coauthor of over thirty books for adults and middle readers. His books include Fatal Forecast, The Finest Hours, Overboard!, A Storm Too Soon, So Close to Home, The Waters Between Us, Extreme Survival, and The Power of Positive Fishing. He offers slide presentations and an inspiration program titled “Survival Lessons: Decision Making Under Pressure.” Read his absolutely brilliant new book, which I could not put down: In Deep Water: A True Story of Sharks, Survival, and Courage Anthony Scaramucci is the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge, a global alternative investment firm, and founder and chairman of SALT, a global thought leadership forum and venture studio. Pre-order my next book, All the Wrong Moves: How Three Catastrophic Decisions Led to the Rise of Trump, out on the 17th of September in the UK and the 22nd of September in the US: ⁠https://www.scaramucci.net/allthewrongmoves Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There was a point where Lou says, I'm probably not going to make it to Sunny. The men have split up, so they've broken the vow. One man has sprinted towards a boat about a mile away. So now you have the two holding back with the coolers, and this is long before the shark attack. And Lou says to Sunny, I don't think I'm going to make it. So please tie my body to the coolers to get me home. And Sunny goes, I'm not going to tie your body to the cooler. I am going to shove you in that cooler.

and I'm going to bring you home no matter what. And Lou kind of rallied a little bit with Sunny's help. So it was very moving to see one man help the other and put his own future at risk by expending even more than you. Welcome to Open Book. I am your host, Anthony Scaramucci. Joining us now is Michael Togas. He's the best-selling author of In Deep Water, a true story of Sharks, Survival and Change. And Happy Fourth of July weekend coming up.

scared out of my mind at age 11 and 1975 by Jaws. And now we have this incredible book that you're bringing to us. But first, tell us a little bit about your background, Michael. Your bestselling author, you've got a lot of fun things in your career. Yeah, a lot of my books are on this topic of survival at sea and off the chart rescues. I did one book called The Finest Hours that became a Disney movie and followed that up with a storm too soon. So this has kind of been in my wheelhouse, if you will, but I like to diversify and every now and then go off the charts. I did a fun book called The Power of Positive Fishing,

35 years of friendship on the ocean with a buddy and what we learned. I think we're all mystified by the sea. Are we not? I think it's a fair thing to say. I mean, it's 70 plus percent of our planet. You know, 30 percent of our land is what we live. on, but there's a lot of deep unknown mysteries about the sea. Is that fair to say, Michael? Aren't sharks a composite of those mysteries? Absolutely. They will do the unexpected, you know, and I've done a lot of reading about sharks. I've snorkeled with sharks. I've had shark experience. In fact, I just got off the water here on Cape Cod just an hour ago. And it was only last year that a big, great White went under my boat in four feet of water, so you never know what to find.

One thing I take issue with is all the shark experts say, oh, they never attack humans intentionally. You know, they mistake you for a seal or a big fish. I'm not so sure about that. I've interviewed enough people and in deep water, it's a very unusual shark attack. I mean, we think dolphins are very small. We think whales are very small. Are sharks smart, Michael? I'll tell you this. I think they've learned just recently to come towards boats knowing the boat may be trailing a struggling fish at the end of a fishing line. Because I'm noticing more and more both at Cape God and when I'm in Florida, as soon as the boat stops, sharks seem to appear.

And, you know, it doesn't help that we have some diving going on where people feed the sharks. So I think they have learned that humans may offer a potential meal one way or another. You have a body of work, which I want to reference if you don't mind. One is the finest hours, which, of course, was made into a movie by Disney. You have overboard. Of course, that's what's the exclamation point because you're exploring disaster and decision-making under fire or decision making under extreme amounts of pressure. Why does this fascinate you? I feel like if I'm reading about first moments of human crisis, I feel like you show up.

You have a way of explaining it better than most. I like that. You show up. Well, you know, because I do this for a living and I'm fascinated by it, I get pitched a lot of interesting ideas to look into. and most would be good for a magazine article but could never sustain a book. Whereas in deep water really got my attention, and I'd been looking for a story like this for five years, just waiting for the right story because it's 28 hours. They're treading water, and they've got to make a series of life and death decisions. And there's group dynamics involved. You have three men in the water.

And so I'm attracted for two parts. One, I say to myself, I could have never made it. So that clears the first hurdle for me. And then two, does it have enough twist, turns, surprises, and those really tough decisions that they've got to get right. If, you know, if you get it wrong, you can't get an A minus, in other words. You have to get an A plus with all the decisions. So for those reasons, it appeals to me like, okay, so how did they do it? Not so much physically but mentally.

How did they not give up when I'm saying to myself as I'm interviewing the folks involved, I would have thrown in the towel? Well, Michael, listen, I mean, it's a fascinating story, right? There's no Mayday call. There's no time to prepare. There's no way to communicate. how common is that in a situation like this? And then, you know, what are the chances of survival in a situation like this?

I felt like when I was reading this book, I was like, okay, these guys should not survive. Everything is stacked against them. So tell us a little bit about the human impulse for survival and what lights up in our brains when we're trying to figure out if these are our last breaths or not? Yes, they, you know, they never got off a Mayday because things can happen fast out there. And a couple of mistakes were made early on. Like, you should always tell people where you're going. And, you know, when the waves are building, you head in at the first sign of it.

But I've made those mistakes, too, where I've gone out and forgot to tell somebody when I'm coming back or where I'm going on the ocean. But that decision-making and that resilience, I think it's probably there in all of us to a greater degree than we think, but I don't think I could have done 28 hours in the ocean. And a couple times when one of them in particular was going to give up, he would think of his family. So he had a bigger purpose than just living for himself. They also did something psychologically, what I think is important. They made a decision to stay together. Tell us about that decision and tell us why that had great consequence. So they're 10 miles out in the boat saying, by the way, we don't know exactly why the boat sank.

It could have been a number of reasons. It was a used vessel that this was the first trip, that it could have had a small crack in the hull. The bilge pump wasn't working. They'd even tied up to an oil rig. But when they go down, everything's happening fast. And one of the first decisions that they make as a group, one says, okay, this is happening. Let's not waste any breath on why this happened. In other words, who's to blame?

And let's make a vow. We stick together no matter what. and the three agree. Yeah, we'll assign blame later if that's an issue for us. But for now, you know, we've got to fight together. And we've got one of us who's not a swimmer Lou. We're going to make sure they grab two coolers. That's all they have for flotation besides their life jackets. And we'll position Lou in between the two coolers for for better support. And Lou, and with the life jackets, by the way, Lou only had a kitty life. jacket on. That's all he had time to grab. So that wasn't even fitting properly. But you'll see later,

it plays a role in his survival story. I mean, yeah, you have hypothermia. You have jellyfish things. You've got desperation, exhaustion. You've got all kinds of awareness of sharks are around so your adrenaline is pumping constantly. How do you sustain all of this? How does somebody stay at that level of cortisol and adrenaline and still survive? I would think I would have panicked out of the situation, Michael, if I'm being brutally honest. Myself as well, Anthony, they kept saying, okay, maybe we can make it to the next rig and then get swept way wide of it. And, you know, let's together do this, take turns maybe kicking. a little harder. And that jellyfish you mentioned, it wasn't just a sting here or there. Their legs

are like somebody whipped their legs. And at one point, one of them had dozed off a little bit during the night and wakes up. And there's a jellyfish bigger than a beach ball on his lap. The tentacles are going right up the shorts. Talk about a terrible way to go, okay, I'm waking up. This is real. Thank you for tuning in an open book. And if you haven't already, please hit the subscribe button below so that you're the first to know when our new episodes drop each week. We've got a lot more coming. And now back to the show. Yeah, you know, I think you've also done a brilliant job of tying this into your corporate leadership talks because I've watched some of these on YouTube.

Yeah, thank you. When you're telling somebody about these men and decision making and you're saying, okay, here's a real life situation. here's life or death. Here's how it applies to your business or here how it applies to your life on land. What are a few of the most resonating messages? I talk about when you're faced with some personal adversity, it won't be life and death like this case.

But think of a couple tricks that these folks have used. And one is, okay, let's slow it down. We're going to take things hour by hour. I'm not going to look too far ahead because I get overwhelmed. You know, I've had that feeling back in the corporate world where project gets dumped on you and you're almost frozen in the headlights a little bit. But if you take an hour by hour and that's what almost, and I've interviewed well over 100 survivors who shouldn't be on the planet because I've been doing it for 35 years, almost all of them say, yes, that's exactly what we did. You know, I remember one survivor in fatal forecast. He had this brilliant line.

He goes, when I asked him, did you know, did you have that positive feeling you were going to make it? He goes, no, I actually thought I was not going to make it, but I was determined to go down fighting. So I took the approach. I'm going to fight for another hour. And then I'll decide, do I want to fight for an additional hour? And pretty soon he's stringing hours together in fatal forecasts. And almost to a survivor, they say some variation of that theme. Break it down into attainable goals.

Try to influence your surroundings or your situation, even in the smallest of ways so you feel productive. And it's a great lesson for all of us when we're faced with a challenge. This is a phenomenal story, which is why we wanted to bring you on. I want to talk about the Coast Guard crew on the J-Hawk helicopter. What stood out to you about their decision making? Professionalism that they were determined, even though the odds when they launched were only, you know, one percent that they'd find these guys alive and find them at all, frankly. But their professionalism was, we are going to give this our best shot. And you had these two experienced pilots.

To me, I'm always amazed. I say experience, but they're young, you know, but such responsibility on their shoulders. And, you know, even with the rescue swimmer, he knows he's going in to a bunch of sharks that are surrounding these survivors never hesitates. Does what they call a direct deployment where he doesn't even be brought down on the hook slowly. he leaps from the helicopter because he knows that these guys have been in the water 28 hours. So the professionalism is what really stands out for me and that, you know, yeah, it may only be 1%, but we're going to give it 100%. And take this until we find them. They have that mindset. Yeah, I mean, to me, I always, you know, when I think about the 9-11 firefighters or the ambulance,

paramedics, everyone is running towards a crisis. And so even in their, it's the doppelganger of the victim. You know, their adrenaline is going. They're making life or death decision making on behalf of people. And there's a lot of selflessness in all of it as well, which I think you capture. There was a fluky thing about that helicopter crew where the night before, from the very same port, three men crash into a jetty. and they've got to airlift them out.

One expires. And so the family members of the three guys in the booking deep water, they think, oh, my God, that's our guys, and one of them's dead. Because they left from the same port, it's three men in a pleasure boat. You know, it all maxed. It was just by coincidence. And then this crew who barely gets enough sleep launches again, and it's three more men from the exact same port.

And by the way, we have no idea where they are. I mean, you know, listen, it's incredible. And I want to, I want to take everything that you've researched, all these different intimate interviews, and I want you to give me a paragraph or two on human resilience. There was a point where Lou says, I'm probably not going to make it to Sunny. Now, I won't give away the ending, but the men have split up.

So they've broken the vow. They've broken the bow. One man has sprinted towards a boat about a mile away. So when I say sprint, he's doing his best, but trying to get there. So now you have the two holding back with the coolers. And this is long before the shark attack. And Lou says to Sunny, I don't think I'm going to make it. So please tie my body to the coolers to get me home. And Sunny goes, I'm not going to tie your body to the coolers to get me home. And Sunny goes, I'm not going to tie your body to the cool. I am going to shove you in that cooler and I'm going to bring you home no matter what. And I said to Sonny, why, I couldn't believe you could joke at a time like that. He goes, I wasn't joking. I was telling him just what I had planned to do. And then I told them, but you're not going to do that. You can go one more hour.

So that hour theme kept coming up. And Lou kind of rallied a little bit with Sunny's help. So it was very, very moving to see one man helped the other and put his own. future at risk by expending even more energy. So the value of sticking together, though, right? Could you imagine being alone how easy it is to quit in a situation like that, you know? Yeah, a little pep talk. You know, if you or I were together in the ocean, each one could try and pick the other

one up. Let's keep going a little bit longer. You know, one of the things about your writing that I enjoy, yes, you're a journalist, you do good investigative research, and you really do a great job interviewing people. but I think there's a human quality, and I want to address you as a person, and I want you to tell me, as a person, when you write this story and you're closing the book on your manuscript, what is it, how does it feel? Like, what are you thinking about? Yes, fear, encourage, resilience, but I think there's something else driving you, Michael, I'm trying to get to exactly what it is. one, did I get it all right? Accuracy really counts to these survivors. And the second one is my mantra, because I've done 40 books now,

my main mantra is make it fast-paced, because I read a book a week, and if I'm not hooked in the first chapter or two, I move on. So my mantra is make it fast-paced, and in deep water as fast pace as nothing else. And, you know, when you, so then you've got the rough draft done, then you go back and you really, you really tighten it up. So you, you know, at my age, I'm 71-year-old.

I want to make sure that I'm at the top of my craft knowing, you know, maybe I'll come across one more story like this. They're so hard to find. So don't blow it. These guys have put their lives, so to speak, in your hands now, to get the story right and be proud of this book. Get it right, but make it fast-paced. But I think you did a really good job.

I think you served the rescuers and the survivors really well. I think you captured, there's moments of breathlessness in this book where I'm like, whoa, now what? And I don't know. I guess, I guess to me, this is a, I mean, this has to be a joyous thing for you. This has to be a real passion project for you to be able to capture all this. What, what's next for you? What do you, what do you think about next? I know you're, you said 71 years old, but you look 71 years young to me.

So, so what are we doing next? You know, I'm not, I'm not sure. I'm going to take it a little break because these are kind of, grueling projects. I've become close friends with these men. So we're going to, we're going to get together at some point with the rescuers and have a little celebration of life, if you will. And I'll take a deep breath and enjoy it. And, you know, I knew that I got it right for them when they all offered on social media to post and publicize the book. And I'm like, wow, Oh, that is, you know, that's going above and beyond.

You've given all your time. And so Lou, when he was in the water, he took a video of himself, a 30-second video. And I posted that on Instagram, and the thing went viral. It's got half a million views. Because he doesn't say anything, but you could see it at his face that this is my message to my parents that I'm still alive, but I won't be in the next few minutes. and that authenticity, I guess, is what appeals to people online. Well, it's life or death.

I mean, you know, this is the thing. You know, we both know the JFK story where his PT109 boats cut in half, as people injure, there's a fire in the water. He's trying to get everybody together. He swims to shore and then he carves out his coordinates in a coconut, right? And you think about it. And when I was reading your book, I was thinking about that, thinking about these other acts of heroism. I think the thing I love most about the book,

I love many things. It's an adrenaline rush, but it's the quiet acts of heroism among everybody, the Coast Guard, the survivors, the people that are involved in the tragedy. So, all right, so we're down to the five words here. So I pick five words from your book, me and my producer, Holly. I'm going to say the word and then you come up with a sentence or two up mouth the word. Okay, you're ready? I'm ready to give it a go. All right. So if I say the word rescue, Michael, what comes to mind, rescue?

The rescuers, the SAR team, search and rescue team, not just the helicopter crew. They kept digging and digging and digging, and then they got the lucky break that, again, I won't give things away, that allowed them to take it to the next level. Okay. Fear. check out that video that Lou took, believe it or his iPhone could work underwater for 28 hours.

It's on my website. You will see the fear in his face, the exhaustion, the fear. That really spoke to me. Seeing a video like that. So, yeah. We took a look at it before we prepared for this. And it was incredibly authentic. I think that's the reason why it went viral because it was in state.

It was not, that's not a Hollywood script right there. That's real life. Right. I say the word courage. That they didn't, you know, they didn't cast blame. They never got in arguments. They were just trying to trade ideas to keep fighting on a little bit longer. And to me, it was kind of this quiet courage.

It wasn't one person of the three taking a leadership role. That probably wouldn't have one. worked. It was a quiet courage to just keep going. Get through the night. Then it was get through the morning. Then it was get through the afternoon. Resilience. Yeah. That, you know, again, I go to Lou, him bouncing back because he actually did give up, but Sonny talked him out of it. You know, it'd be so easy to have the pain be over with. Other survivors have said that as well. Just take your life jacket off. It'll be over quick. You're so exhausted. You know, it's just quick, but it's like go a little bit longer.

Survival. If you want to read a book where the whole time you're thinking they're not going to make it, this is the survival book for you. Yeah. You know, when I think of the word survival after reading this, I think of Darwin. I think there's something in the mechanisms of our personalities. our makeup as the human animal that we're trying to get to our natural life span. And we're going to do everything we can to get there.

And I think you've represented that so incredibly well in this book. So I just want to thank you for writing it. Michael Togas, thank you so much for joining us on Open Book. The title of the book is In Deep Water, A True Story of Sharks, Survival, and Courage. It is a fascinating must read for the summer. and I appreciate you joining us. Thank you. Thank you, Anthony. It was a real pleasure. Thank you so much.