Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - Trapped Inside the FBI's Secret Wars with Brett Forrest

Episode Date: August 23, 2023

In this episode, Anthony is joined by author and national security reporter at the Wall Street Journal, Brett Forrest. Brett’s new book Lost Son takes us inside the hunt to find FBI asset Billy Reilly who vanished in Russia. Anthony opens up about his own encounter with the Reilly family – and the struggle to find answers. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Visit BetMGM Casino and check out the newest exclusive. The Price is Right Fortune Pick. BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2,600 to speak to an advisor.

Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is open for. book where I talk with some of the brightest minds out there about everything surrounding the written word from authors and historians to figures and entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcast and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the parts you're enjoying or how we can do better. You know,

I can roll with the punches, so let me know. Anyways, let's get to it. As you'll hear later on in the show, today's story is a personal one for me. I wish I could have helped the Riley's more in the fight to find their son, Billy. I'm glad Brett has told Billy's story in his new book, Lost Son. There's a coming of age, loss, world conflict, exploitation. It's an emotional read, but ultimately an incredibly powerful one. Joining us now an open book is Brett Forrest. He's A reporter at the Wall Street Journal has written an incredible book. There's a tragedy in this book, obviously, but it's also a painful exposition of what does go on in the geopolitical realm. The title of the book is Lost Sun, an American family trapped inside the FBI's secret wars.

So, Brett, I don't want to give away the plot. I'm going to talk very generically about the book. It's great to have you on. I have a minor role in this book, and you and I have talked about it, So we'll just fully disclose that to my viewers and listeners. This is a story. Again, the general plot is a son goes missing in Moscow, and the family can't get any information out of his former employer or the current employer, the FBI. And they're standing outside of Fox News one day.

I'm walking in. I'm part of President Trump's executive transition team, and they approach me and asked me if I could be of some help. Unfortunately, I wasn't super helpful to them. but at least we tried. And you wrote an amazing Wall Street Journal article that you converted into this book. So let's set the scene there. This story obviously impacted you, sir. How did it impact you? And why did you turn that award-winning article into this great bestselling book? Well, Anthony, first of all, thank you very much for having me on. And I was so glad to get your invitation because I think you

underplay your role, to be honest, in the resolution of this mystery. I mean, without you, I don't think it's probably fair to say it might not have happened. And I think I know that a lot of people who read the book, when they come to your part in the book, which admittedly is brief, a lot of people stop and it's very surprising to them that this sort of fairly anonymous family from Michigan, the Riley family, whose son had worked for the FBI and went missing in Russia, that they came upon you and you enter the scene as a character and you facilitate the entry of their case, direct. into the incoming Trump administration. And I think that's, you know, it speaks to the permeability of the early Trump presidency or pre-presidency. And it also talks to, you know, speaks to the level of desperation that the family had. They felt like they were out of options. And the last thing they wanted to do was come to New York City and just try and find somebody who could help. So, very pleased that you and I are speaking about this now. And I'm happy to talk about how this book became, you know, very, very personal with me.

You know, it's interesting because you did, when I read the book, that word permeable came up. It made me think about it. Shouldn't the government be permeable to people like the Riales? It should be. It should be. This is something that came to mind as I was banging on a million doors in Washington and elsewhere trying to get answers for this family and was repeatedly turned away, just as they were, which was a little bit surprising to me, given that I was doing this on behalf of the Wall Street Journal. And often that's enough to get people to get on the phone or have a meeting with you. But in this instance, it wasn't. And, you know, the conclusion that I came to is that we often think of government as a monolith, but it's not.

Government is made of people and it's made of people who make decisions. And it's made of people, I think, who too often think about, you know, what's legal or what's going to help or hurt their careers rather than casting things on a moral scale. And that was my pursuit for the Riley's. You know, I was, I was appealing to people's morality. He was a family that was searching for a lost son. And they were always looking, as I was, for someone with access to power who had an inclination to help them. And again, back to you, you were really the only one. Well, listen, I do think you give me a little bit too much credit, but I do appreciate you saying it.

And, of course, I went into the government to serve people. So a story like that to me is the reason why you go into government, frankly, you want to help people and see if you can help them. Unfortunately, this is a tragic circumstance. Let's go to Billy Riley for a second. You tell such an amazing story about Billy Riley. And entice a reader. Bring somebody over the line here to go buy your book.

Who is Billy Riley? And why does he get so interested in Russian and Arabic and Islam, et cetera? Well, let me backtrack. So I was in New York when 9-11 happened. And I remember the rush among journalists and writers to explain what had happened. And I remember hearing one wise person to say, well, you know, you got to wait to write something for years because that's when we're really going to see the true impact. And, you know, as interesting as Billy's story is in the Russian context, it really tells us a lot about the impact of 9-11, especially on younger people, people who were like Billy in high school or around that age at the time of 9-11. I mean, this changed the direction of his life because he became fascinated at answering the question, you know, why the attacks had happened.

And this led him down the road to fascination with world religions, foreign languages, and international conflicts. And that really became those three things together became his focus going forward. You know, I'm often thinking about guys like him going to public service. There was a young kid in my town. 9-11 happened. We lost many people. He enlisted in the Army. He was killed on Route Irish from an IED as an Army Ranger. And so in many ways, he's a casualty of 9-11. You know, it just happened to happen seven or eight years after 9-11. Do you think, you think Billy's a casualty of 9-11? I never thought about it in those terms, but I can certainly see your point. I would say that

there was, you know, there were other factors in play for Billy. And the largest and most obvious factor, of course, is the FBI. And the FBI's own struggle for its very existence after 9-11. After the 9-11 was the FBI's greatest failure. Yet it gave the FBI its greatest license to expand its work abroad and to expand its usage of cooperators and informants. And its drive to recruit such people. That's how Billy got swept up and began working with the FBI. So I think, you know, Billy would not have probably gotten interested in all of these fascinating global issues without 9-11, and the FBI would not have been looking for someone who had Billy's skills for it not for those attacks. So I think his story is fascinating that it marries

the big idea with the personal idea, and you see the result. Yeah, I want to ask this. I think this is something that's been troubling me. When we have confidential human sources, and something happens to these confidential human sources, as a journalist or somebody who believes in the free press, what do you think? think should happen. How does the government handle it? And how do you think they should handle it? Well, I'm not an opponent of the FBI. I've written about FBI cases over the years and I've gotten to know some agents. And it's a bit of a mixed bag. There are some agents who are very good at their jobs and are very sharp and understand the responsibility that they carry and have a good head on their shoulders.

But it's a big agency with a lot of different agents. And quite frankly, there is another subset of people who work there who maybe aren't as responsible as we might like them to be. And I think that the FBI, look, it has always worked with cooperators and informants. It's the foundation of their work. But I think we see in Billy's case and others, you know, he's not the only one who sort of disappeared or had a problem at, you know, at the direction of the FBI. I think we see many times that the FBI is really beyond any kind of congressional oversight when it comes to the usage of such people. When they recruit such a person, they input them into a special computer system called the Delta system using an alphanumeric designation.

So it's impossible for anyone outside the FBI even ever to know what this person has officially done for them. So they're just layers and layers of secrecy, which I think they just should be more open about. Yeah. Again, I'm trying to be coy here because. this reads like a thriller. I feel like I'm reading a Daniel Silva or a Brad Thor book. And so I want people to open the book, start reading. You're going to learn a lot about the world and the intrigue is in the world. And you don't, you know, the truth in this book in many ways, as the cliche is, is obviously stranger than fiction. Let's stick to Billy for a second, though. He is, him and his sister,

are profiled here, Katie, not in love with the war in Iraq. They feel that the war is criminal set the scene for us. They attended George W. Bush rally in Detroit. Tell us what happened there. Yeah, well, this is when they were in high school and they were, you know, like so many, I mean, like all of us in high school, just sort of beginning to come of age and become aware of their surroundings and develop political opinions and all this. And, you know, they had, Billy was a couple of years older than his sister and a strong influence on her. He had a year after the 9-11 attacks through his personal study online, he had grown very fond of Islam. He and his sister were raised Catholic.

They were of Polish and Irish descent. So Islam in the Middle East were very foreign to them, but they took to it. And a year after the attacks, Billy actually told people he had converted to their religion. Katie followed him in that conversion. And then there was this rally that you talk about. It was a political rally for George W. Bush. And when Bush came out on stage, Billy leapt up and started hurling insults of the president. He called him Hitler, even.

And a man nearby took exception to that, and Billy and this guy came to blows. So Billy was really starting to develop strong opinions about the world. But he's likable, though. You never met him, right? You did the report. Obviously, he didn't meet him. But he comes across likable in your book. Is that fair description?

Well, you know, I mean, likeability, I would leave to the real. reader, to be honest. Okay. All right. He came across like a little time. I'm glad that you felt that. I mean, I think for, for me, my purpose is just to make sure that the reader cares enough about the main character to want to know, you know, what happened to the person, right?

And I hope that we've achieved that. So Bill and Terry, these are Billy's parents. I meet them. It's late fall. President Trump has won the 11th. I'm in front of the Fox News headquarters. You remember? They hand me the, I do.

I do because, you know, let me tell you something. I'm a parent. So as a parent, what I would say to you, the pain on Mrs. Riley's face, Brett, is something I won't forget. And I do have children, as I was only imagining the empathy for her of feeling that loss and the uncertainty and the trauma, but the mystery, you could tell there was a lot of sleepless nights in the family. And so I do remember it because there was a plea in her eyes.

You know, she was pleading to find somebody to help her, you know. And one way or the other, the family was desperate to know what was going on. Tell us about Billy's parents, Bill and Terry Riley. Well, I'll tell you, this isn't the only case of this type that I've worked on over the years. And I'll tell you that one commonality they all share is that none of these families have any experience. in what they're about to get into. The Riley's, they're just, I mean, I don't mean this in a pejorative sense. They're just regular folks. You know, regular folks from Michigan. You know, they don't, they don't speak Russian. They've never, you know, they don't have any real experience

in Russia. They don't have any context there. This is where Billy disappeared, you know, and they don't know much about how the FBI works. They know that their son was working for the FBI, but that's about it. And suddenly, this very twisted puzzle is thrust upon them. And they have to try to try and figure it out themselves. So basically their lives become a mixture of several impulses or emotions. I mean, they're, they're alarmed at the disappearance of their son. You know, they're obviously dealing with a lot of grief and sadness, but they have to get to work and they have to try and figure it out. I love your determinedness. I want to talk about you for a second, Brett. You are a, you know, I don't know if anyone's ever described you this way, but I feel like you're

like the Rottweiler of journalists, you locked your teeth into the situation and you would not let go. Is that how you are in every assignment? Is this an assignment that, because of the facts, that drew you in tighter? Or how would you describe yourself? I would, I mean, from the very get-go, I found something very special in this story. I mean, this case. I wasn't convinced immediately that it was a story for the Wall Street Journal because it was open-ended. And I knew that it would probably require some kind of resolution to the case in order to really to get my editors to publish it. And that was a big ask, you know, trying to find a lost FBI asset in Russia who'd been gone for a couple of years. But I felt like it was, it was worth it for many reasons, but principally because

this was an opportunity to provide a service to a family that needed it. You know, and I felt like I had something to bring because I had lived in Russia. for five years. I had been working in the country off and on for 15 years, and I had developed a host of contacts and friendships and knowledge of the place that I thought, you know, that I could possibly use to the Riley's advantage. And that, you know, that to me made it a special project and a special story. It wasn't just any other story. It was something where I could take an active role. You have this life experience. You traveled back and forth between Russia and Washington working on the book, you worked in both places, you lived in Russia. Tell us about the tension

that we're now dealing with between Washington and Moscow and our two governments and the Russian and the American people. Well, I moved to Russia in 2002, a long time ago now, and it was a different world. Vladimir Putin was still pretty new as Russian president. He had a seeming friendship with George W. Bush, and they spent time together on Bush's Texas ranch. I'm sure you recall all this very well. Well, for our younger listeners out there, President Bush looked into Vladimir Putin's eyes and he said he could see his soul and he knew he was a good man. Never lived that one down. So, you know, I've had the good fortune, if you will, to see the evolution of the relationship, at least over those past 20 years, up close and personal. And, you know, unfortunately, it's really been a case of just devolving, if you will, relations. And that's one other thing that drew.

me to Billy's stories because, you know, not only was it a story of one man's coming of age, his, you know, it wasn't just a story of a family's search and my search, but it was also an opportunity to tell these larger, you know, these larger sort of geopolitical tales. And that was one that underpinned the whole thing. I mean, Billy went missing in Russia, which by that time was one of the most difficult foreign venues for any kind of U.S. intelligence or law enforcement asset. And the reason it was so difficult is because our relations had deteriorated so drastically, precipitously since 2000, really since Vladimir Putin came in office. So the book does allow us that opportunity to explain that whole really important issue.

Before we get into the last part of this podcast, I want to ask you a little bit about our state secrets, how the government keeps secrets. I want to test the theory on you and get your reaction. So I sort of feel like when we had a uniformity to our media, it was easier for the government to keep secrets. You know, the Pentagon Papers came out 50, 60 years ago, and that was a big deal. But most of the time, they were able to corral and keep secrets. I mean, frankly, the mostly American public didn't even know that FDR was paralyzed, right? They positioned him in a certain way. And now you have this massive proliferation of media, social media.

Every camera is a movie or radio or television studio. And I think it's becoming harder and harder for the government to use their tried old methods of suppressing things. And it's creating this whole almost, you know, we have a military industrial complex. But I feel like we have a conspiracy industrial complex as well. Now we have this whole thing that gets chinned up because of these seekers that the government keeps, which, I mean, we have this UFO controversy going on right now. And we don't know if there are UFOs or they're man-made or not man-made or woman-made. But you get the point that I'm making. Do you think we're at a point here because of social media and the world of journalism and technology

where the government has to switch up their thinking about what they can and cannot suppress? Yeah. You know, I feel the same way that you do. You know, I don't favor this trend. You know, there's no more Walter Cronkite, is there? There's no more authority, right? And we fight about the facts, sir. So not only is there no more Walter Cronkite, you may be watching a show.

show different than mine. And so when we go to the cocktail party, we see the facts different, even. We don't have the same set of facts anymore. And it's harder for, for average folks to to find things that are reliable, to find information that's reliable and verified, just because there's such a proliferation of media outlets out there. You know, but on the flip side, I do favor greater disclosure by our government. You know, I mean, you take the FBI evolution. And it's a story of gross oversteps, followed immediately by, you know, congressional hearings and the drawdown on sort of FBI ability to sort of do it, do its work to, you know, to put the FBI in a bit of a box, and then followed immediately by some new national emergency that lets the FBI out of the box again.

So, you know, I think it's vitally important that we press government at all times to tell us what it's doing. So, you know, I think that competes with. the conspiracy theory or conspiracy theorists out there, the more disclosure we have and the harder we work to verify what we learn, you know, I think that at least we can offer an alternative to the other thinking. Yes. Yeah, I'm with you on all of it. And I do think we agree on this stuff about there's a lost innocence that we're dealing with as well, you know, and there's this and I think it causes people stress and fear. You've written a couple other books too. You've had the long bomb and the fix. They're more sports focused. So this is a little different for you. I always

end these podcasts with five words, the tradition to me. I'm going to give you these five words, and I'd like you to react to the five words. Are you ready? I hope so. Yeah. The FBI. An organization that provides a vital role, but is in a desperate need of greater congressional oversight. Washington, D.C. Hot in the summer. And, yeah, never a dull moment there. That's often where I find myself. And yeah, boy, it's it's a one business town, one industry town.

And a lot of, I mean, for me, and I guess obviously I didn't, I had an ill-fated career in Washington. It seemed like unnecessary drama is how I would describe it, frankly. There's a lot of drama in that town that it's not, doesn't. It doesn't need to happen. I mean, there's a lot of opera, a lot of opera going on. I mean, not to malign the whole city and all the people. No, there's great people.

There's great public servants. A lot of people are very uptight about things they don't need to be. That's what I would say. Yeah, exactly. And they get their bees in their bonnets over nothing. What about Russia? They took things too far. I really enjoyed living there when I did many years ago

because I felt like it was a place of, And this has always surprised people who don't know the country well. It was always a place of great personal freedom at a time when I felt like our country was beginning to restrict things like free speech and other freedoms. And one of the worst things about this war in Ukraine, the worst thing, of course, is the effect it's had on the Ukrainian people and all the people that have been murdered there and killed by Russia. But another terrible thing that's happened is it has pushed down all of the positive aspects of Russian society, and you just don't see them anymore. It's brought out the worst parts of Russia. Right. So that's very scary.

And I think the Russian people know that, too, right? The Russian people are also frustrated by that. I think it's a mixed bag. You know, it's a huge population. Hard to generalize. I mean, there's no typical Russian, just like there's no typical American. And I think, you know, some people, and I know that's for sure, there's a section of the population there that really supports the war, that really loves Putin. And then, of course, there are folks in the middle.

And, you know, it's a mixed bag. Like every, like every country. Okay, the concept, the word justice. Oh, I think, unfortunately, it's often in our country subjective. No question. Yeah, well, we learn that. And it's not to be. Yeah.

So it's not as, there's an I.N. In front of the word injustice oftentimes, right? Justice is sometimes injustice. The legacy of Billy Riley. Legacy of Billy Riley. Boy, you know, Billy, he lived in a small town that was, it was too small for his ambitions. And I think that a lot of people around the country can relate to that.

He was someone who wanted his life to match. And I think his legacy is, you know, that he was willing to be curious about the world and to follow that curiosity into the world. I think that should be his legacy. What's your next thing? What are you working on? Another book? Yeah, I'm kicking around a few ideas. I'd like to get going on another big project soon. I have a lot of work, of course, at the Wall Street Journal. It's always a busy time with Russia and Ukraine still going at it. Sure.

And yeah, just curious to find another idea that can hold my attention like Billy's story has. All right. Well, listen, this is a phenomenal book, and I appreciate you coming on. This is Brett Forrest's book, Lost Son, an American family trapped inside the FBI's Secret Wars. It's a brilliant exposition of what can happen when things go wrong, but also a very objective exposition of governmental response. do when things go wrong, which I think is worth reading for people that want to understand the government and things that are happening in today's world. Thank you so much for joining us on Open Book. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. It was a real pleasure speaking with you. And thank you for having me on. And thank you again for your contribution to the resolution of the mystery here.

As a parent, I just can't tell you how my heart breaks for the Riley family and for Mrs. and Mr. Riley. You can't begin to imagine the fear that I saw in their faces or the pain. I remember it vividly like it was yesterday. It's six and a half, almost seven years ago now. I ran into them in the plaza in front of the Fox News headquarters, their global headquarters. I was walking in to do a television interview, and the Riley's approached me to explain to me what was going on with their son. I think what Brett wrote in the book was actually true.

They didn't realize how quickly I was going to move on it. I could have blown them off. I could have said, oh, geez, I'm sorry. I work for President Trump's new administration, and I can't be bothered with this. I could have made an easy excuse to get away from them. But I think ultimately, when you see a family in need like that or you see people in pain like that, you want to run towards them and not away from them. Now, the outcome was quite tragic.

But at least we, in the early days of the transition team, tried to get our arms around what was happening. And the sad part of that story is we didn't have great news to tell the Ryleys. But at least they know that their fellow Americans were out there trying to help them. And I recommend this book to everybody. Lost Sun, written by Brett Forrest. Brett was brave to keep going and pushing to uncover what happened. And I think it's a story that's worth reading and it'll tear at your heartstrings. All right.

So my next guest was a guy named Brett Forrest. He wrote a book, and you may or may not remember this because it was seven years ago. But there was a family that lost track of their son in Russia. And I don't know if you remember this story, but I was walking in front of the Fox News channel. I was going in there to do an interview. And they recognized me. They came over to me. And they said, hey, I know you work for the Trump administration or the incoming Trump administration. We misplaced our son, meaning they didn't misplace them. But he's gone missing. in Russia, and we've asked the government for help and they're not helping us, could you help us? Now, you know my personality, Ma, so what did I do? You help. Okay, right? That's the way you could. Right. I took the stuff.

I said, let me see if I could try to help you. To their great shock, I took it to General Flynn, who was the incoming National Security Advisor and to KT. McFarland, his assistant, and we tried to find the kid. Okay, so let me ask you this. Okay, suppose that was one of your kids, Ma. How bad is that, right? Well, if it was one of my kids, I would go for broke and if they didn't find them, I probably wouldn't live.

Right. It's a very painful thing to lose a kid. We both know that. But this guy, Brett Forrest, wrote a hell of a book because in the book, he shows Billy Riley, who was lost in Russia. He was eventually discovered that he was killed, but he was lost in Russia at a time when he was coming of age. You know, he'd be like in his early 20s, okay?

Isn't that an important time in life, Ma? Can't you go one way or the other? or you can break one way or the other at that point. And home is calm. Your home is common. It's not too much up people. Children have a chance to go forward. And my house is mixed.

Okay. All right. But I mean, but you either have to make a decision where you're going to go forward and do the best you can one way or the other, right? You can't, what are you going to do? Or your home is going to crash you

and you have to swim out of it somehow. And if you make up your mind, you can swim out of it. But it's a very hurt, hurtful to watch one of your kids, you know, trying to swim out of reality. But there's always a way. I think everyone can get well if they make up their mind. All right.

This is really mental illness. And then, you know, you try to help them with psychiatrists and medicine. Yeah, no, this is what in that situation. He just got involved with the wrong people. But, you know, it's a very sad, tragic story. Of course, as a parent or a grandparent, you never want to see stuff like that. All right. I love you, Ma.

Thanks for joining the show. Thank you. What am I going to see you, though? You're going away. All right. Don't worry, Ma. I'll find some time to see you before I leave. All right.

All right. Don't start with the guilt on the podcast. Wait until after the show's over, all right? The Italian guilt. All right. Love you, Ma. I love you, ma'amuci. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was Open Book.

Thank you for listening. If you like what you hear, tell your friends, and make sure you hit follow or subscribe. wherever you listen to your podcast. While you're there, please leave us a rating or review. If you want to connect with me or chat more about the discussions, it's at Scaramucci on Twitter or Instagram. You can also text me at Plus 1, 917, 909-29-996.

I'd love to hear from you. I'll see you back here next week.