Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - Trump World vs Trump Reality with Michael Wolff

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

#1 New York Times bestselling author Michael Wolff joins Anthony to discuss his latest book, All or Nothing, a deep dive into the chaos of Donald Trump’s political life and inner circle. Michael unpacks Trump’s relationships with key figures, the fallout from his legal battles, and the media’s role in shaping his image. He also reveals insights into Melania Trump’s true feelings, Rupert Murdoch’s complicated ties to Trump, and the lingering mystery of Trump’s connection with Vladimir Putin. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Get tickets now. The Devil Wears Prada 2. In theaters May 1st, directed by David Frankel. Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is Open Book, where I talk to some of the brightest minds about everything surrounding the written word. That's everything. That's from authors and historians to figures in entertainment, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Before we dive in, make sure to follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to leave a review. Good or bad. I want to hear from you. I want to hear whether you're enjoying it or where we can improve. And I can take the hits. So let me know. If you don't like something, say it straight.

Now, let's get into it. One of the things that has not made the Trump camp happy this week is my guess, Michael Wolf's new book, All or Nothing. Michael has spent years pulling back the curtain on the chaos inside Trump's world, and today we're diving into the reality of all of it. Does Trump even like being president? What about his murky ties to Putin, the indictments, and the endless backstabbing? It's pure madness.

Michael is here to reveal just how deep the dysfunction goes. Joining us now on Open Book is a blockbuster bestselling author. New York Times is the number one bestselling author, award-winning journalist. Michael Wolfe has written a couple of great books about Trump, but also books about television, phenomenal journalists. The title of this book is All or Nothing, How Trump Recaptured America, and it really is all or nothing, because he's either going to jail, Michael Wolfe, or he's going to be. be the most powerful person of the world. It's a very binary outcome to him. So I think it's a great

title. But I was telling my staff, as I've read all of your books, I think this is your best one. And I think it's your best one because it's the best research. I feel like these are first primary sources you've gone to that have given you great detail about how things have gone on. So I just want to start right there. Tell us as much as you can about what is going going on? And why are you surprised by the access he had? Well, I'm not. I mean, overall, over the many years now, I am surprised. But I guess I have grown quite used to it since my life is a kind of, and now for nearly 10 years, has been a constant, certainly daily conversation with people around Donald Trump telling me the unbelievable stuff that happens. So it's, and, you know,

frankly, I think they talk to me independent of the fact that I'm, that I'm writing a book, or actually in spite of the book, they, I think they forget that I am writing. I'm going to push you back for a second. Sorry. I'm going to get you to think about this. I think it's because of. I actually think it's because of. I think that they have decided that you're accurately depicting what is going on, and they almost want an accurate depiction, even if it's not... I accept, yes, and I accept that. I mean, I've often wondered about what's going on here, why me, and I do think that the other books, they've thought, well, this is accurate.

This is, this reflects their experience. But also at the same time, and it's a thing, you know, as a, as a journalist, this is a curious state of curious development that I actually like these people and they like me and we've become friends over this period of time talking about this phenomenon in their lives and in my life too. Donald Trump, what does this mean? How did this happen? Everybody is trying to figure this out. Yeah. And I have a big question for you. After reading the book and your other books. There's a group of stalwarts that stay with Trump. There's the Jason Miller's and so forth, right? And there's a group of people that are locked in with him. But the core group of people,

the Bannins have circulated out, the Hope Hickses have circulated out, as you aptly describe in one of the chapters. She's engaged now to Goldman Sachs partner. She's out of the picture. But there is a carousel of people. Trump manages to find Hope Hicks lookalikes. He manages to find. He manages to find replacements for Steve Bannon or replacements for Kellyanne Conway. Everybody gets into a little bit of a sticky situation with Trump. Everybody. Even the ones that stay with him get 100 percent. A little bit sticky. Sticky is a generous way to put it. Generous. They get stung by him. They get beat up by him. They get bullied by him or tortured by him. Some ignored and stay. Those are like the Dan Skavinos of the world. Others are they. They,

get exhausted from it, they leave, but he always manages to recruit a new group of people, the Elon Musk's, the Howard Lutniks, the Susie Wiles. What is that? What is that about Donald Trump based on your observation? I think it's more about about the presidency in the White House or the possibility of the presidency that's the intoxicant here. Because otherwise, Otherwise, it does strain logic. Everybody knows that 100% of the time you're going to end up fired, humiliated, indicted. It won't have a happy ending. So why do you do this?

You do it because, I think, because of the potential of his success. And even that almost defies logic because how, if you think this through, there's no reason that he, should be successful, except that he, there is this feeling. And people around him talk about this, that there is some kind of magic or luck or thing that they can't explain, but is nevertheless real enough for them to hook their, and you write about this beautifully. So I'm going to explain it to our listeners. There's a cauldron. There's craziness. There's impetuosity. There's criminal indictments. There's disorganization.

There's chaos. But then there's also some kind of genius going on as well. You've written about TV. You've written about Fox News. I've interviewed you related to Fox News and the concepts of imagery. Trump understands some of this stuff, right? He understands how to create an image, an image of success, or how to gravitate and pull a certain group of people into his. vision of things?

Well, let's, yeah, let's remember the, I mean, to me, the singularly the most important thing about Donald Trump is that he was the star of a top-rated reality television show for 14 years, 14 years. I mean, you learn the game. And, you know, part of that game, the reality television show game, is conflict. You have to have conflict, a constant conflict. If you don't, you're going to lose your audience and lose ratings. And so you have to manufacture another conflict.

And it's all about manufacturing conflict, which, of course, is what, partly what goes on on a daily basis in the Trump circle. But a little bit more organized this time, no? I mean, I feel like the 2016 campaign, compared to the 2024 campaign, is, same lead singer, but it feels like the band and the guys that are organizing the AV and the people putting the drum in place, it may be a little more organized. I'm wrong. No, I mean, absolutely. There was a core group of political professionals handling the campaign.

They were not mega people. They were not ideological people. They weren't particularly Trump people. They were political professionals whose sole measure of success is winning. And they got to do their thing. So the interesting thing is how come they got to do their thing? That's the follow-up question. Without him interfering.

And I would say that the indictments and the trials and the whole legal morass and that legal threat kept him occupied enough for them to do their jobs. Yeah, yeah. So basically, had he not been indicted, there would have been more chaos, right? He was almost scared shit into listening to them, to say it differently. Yes, I think that that is true.

And had he not been indicted, there would have been less a story for him to exploit. I mean, ultimately, yes, if you looked at this, this scheme or strategy, or tactic of indicting him on the part of the establishment or the Justice Department, yes, I think profoundly backfired. Boris Sepsin is a pretty high-profile figure in the Trump orbit. He's been in and out of the orbit.

I know Boris pretty well. I campaigned with him in 2016. You write that he has reasonably, if not reasonably, very significant sway over a lot of Trump's legal and political strategies. And so why is that, you think? And what is Donald Trump's real opinion of Boris Epstein? Well, you know, I think that that's, I mean, the reason Boris has sway is that he says exactly what Trump wants to hear and he and is a virtuoso at that. The curious thing is that Trump acknowledges that. You know, there are instances in the book where I have him, you know, Boris calling and Boris calls constantly 10, 20. times a day, of Trump holding up the phone with Boris's name on the phone and holds it out to the people that he's having lunch with and said, and said, you know, here's my Boris on the phone, is going

to tell me why it's so great that I've been indicted another time. So there is that kind of acknowledgement on Trump that he, that he, that he likes a yes man around, yes man around him, but will also kick the guy for being the yes man. Yeah. And Boris's strength in this is that that doesn't matter to him. He can accept any humiliation and has accepted, has weathered many humiliations at Trump's hand. Accused him of taking money, all the different types of things. He just hangs in.

Yes, and he was thrown out. You know, he was in the first White House for a couple of weeks and they threw him out. Right. Yeah, I've had that experience, Michael. I know the experience. Susie Wiles. That's the toughest job in Washington, probably, I think, one of the toughest. She makes it.

You mean the chief of staff? Yeah. No. I mean, it's an interesting development. All his other chiefs of staff, he really didn't know. He had no real relationship with them. And, you know, in that Trump way, it was really Jared, who was at least the shadow chief of staff. Right.

But he now has, in Susie Wiles, he has a chief of staff who he has. had now effectively a very long relationship with. You know, although I, you know, when he first met Susie Wiles in 2016, she had been hired as the Florida to run Florida for him. And he first met her, you know, he went back to his staff, in this case, Bannon and said she looks like a refrigerator fire her. She was not fired. They went on to win Florida once, twice, and then in the,

then she became in exile in Marilago, she became kind of the, the keeper of the office and is now the keeper of the, uh, the oval office. No, I'm, but you know, Trump looks like a refrigerator. So what I love about Trump is that literally he's calling other people the refrigerator. It's like the kettle calling the pot black. You know, it's, it's unbelievable his self-image versus the reality of him. No, I, he does. He clearly has no.

idea about the way the way he looks. I mean, he is one of the most extraordinary and you might say horrifying, looking people in the history of modern politics. Yeah, but I mean, there's an image there, though. There's something about the image. He's got the blue suit, the red tie, the orange. Love said. Remember, he lives in his own reality. And in that reality, he is, he's a super handsome guy. Let's go to Las Vita for a second. Chris, I've known him forever. He's a great political operator.

He didn't take a job in the administration. Well, I would read that as he didn't get a job in the administration. Okay. I mean, I think he's saying, yes, he decided to stay out. But I don't think you win a presidential campaign. And at the very top of the campaign organization and then willingly on your own volition, walk away. Okay, so you think that he wanted a job, didn't get one?

What about Jason? Jason Miller career operative? Yeah, and I would, I would, you know, I guess I would have to say the same thing. You just don't walk away from the White House. No, of course, you might say, and I suppose with a certain amount of experience and maturity, you should say, you know, why should I go into this, you know, and risk humiliation, being fired, indictments, when I can stay outside of the White House and potentially make a lot of money. It's just not how political people usually respond.

One of my laugh lines when I'm out publicly speaking, because it's true, you know, one thing about laughter is that when you say something true, people laugh, I always say that my wife hates Donald Trump almost as much as Melania hates him, almost as much. Then I get a good laugh out of that. But you write in the book literally, and I'm using your words, not mine, Malanya blank hates her husband. So tell us about that. Well, you know, this was, I was fishing around. I was, you know, that's a quote from one of the people in the close Trump circle. And I was saying to this person, you know,

She hasn't made one campaign appearance and did not until the last week of the campaign. And she hasn't shown up in any instances in any of his court appearances. You know, and I had, you know, somebody told me the story of Jason Miller approaching her and saying, hey, it would be great in terms of the first indictment of you coming there and stand by your man. And then she said, then she laughed and said, nice try. Anyway, I was trying to talking this through with one of the people and asking, you know, so what's going on here? Really, what is this about?

And I remember this person looked at me with incredulity as though it should be obvious to anyone. And this person said, she hates his fucking guts. And then at that moment, you go, oh, my God. But could this be anything else other than that? Well, no, I didn't think it in the beginning. I mean, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, in 2005, and The Apprentice started, I was at CNBC. I used to go to the parties. And it looked like they did have a relationship.

But I think something did happen in the ensuing years. What do you think? No, well, I think, you know, I mean, and you can imagine what happened in addition to Stormy Daniels. There was, you know, I don't think the presidency, as I, you know, talk about it in my first book, you know, he really did not expect to win and she was resistant. And he assured her, no chance we're going to win this. And then I think, I think this has all been all, you know, Washington, him in this, in the further exaggeration of his Trump persona has been difficult to handle. Yeah, I just, I'm blown away by the reporting and I'm blown away by the detail that you've gotten. And I've theorized something I want to test on you.

Nobody likes them. Nobody likes them. The kids don't like them. The wife doesn't like them. The staff doesn't like them. I think only you and I get this. Am I wrong in saying that, sir? No.

No. I mean, other than the people who don't know him out in the great, the great land who vote for him, to know him is to really, really not like him, to dislike him actually intensely to become, for him to inhabit you in a way that is really, really toxic. Which is one of the reasons, by the way, all of these people talk to me and continue to talk to me. You need an outlet when you feel that. Now, you know, and it's this thing, you know, politics, you know, and these are people, you know, the bulk of them who have made political or many of them who have made political careers. And in a way, they're used to people who are working for people who are extremely difficult. But I think Trump surpasses that. Yeah. So I've never

met anybody that likes them. And I talk to everybody as like you do. And they put up with him and they tolerate him and they work around him and they go into spiritual healing, try to heal themselves and all this sort of nonsense. But there's a high level of toxicity. in his midst, and yet he still attracts these people. You explain that. But why, why, what is the ingredient? What am I, what am I searching for, sir? You have it a little bit in your book, but I'm going to try to explain it this way. He's disliked. He's disliked by the people that are closest to him, yet there's some type of a magical ingredient that he has where he's a progeness political figure. I mean, we have to accept he's one of the more significant political figures of our life

because he's been with us now for 12 years. It's almost like an FDR shadow. Totally. And that is part of the thing. It is politics. What is the thing you value most in politics? It is winning. And right now we have a pretty extraordinary record of him winning.

But there's another thing. and it's a personal thing, and I've seen him in the room do this. There's this constant pairing of punishment and reward, which makes people crazy and they don't know what to do. And it's his, one of his forms, and almost everything he does is about dominance and submission. And it's a way that he achieves this. So people, and people come to hate him for this, but it also is very, very effective of bringing people to heal, bringing people into your corner, getting them to do things that they would not otherwise do. You know, the Michael Cohen example, and all of that testimony was, I can't think of anything that could be more vivid to that point in experience.

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So it's just a matter. matter of time. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, yeah, the Elon thing, remember, so Steve Bannon made it for six months. Right. And Steve Bannon was, was in a way in the Elon position, you know, the cover of Time magazine, all of that kind of thing. And then, you know, he went six months and then, and then he was out. Now, the question is, what does Elon want out of this? What does he hope he can, he can achieve. I mean, he must have some idea that this is, that this is going to come to tears at some point. I don't know. Maybe he's, maybe he's hoping that Trump will, that, that, you know, Trump will die before, before it comes to that. And that will, I, I don't know.

No, guys like Trump don't die, though, Michael. I think you know that, and I know that. He, he, he, he knows, you know, the good die young, Michael. I want to tie it to one of your last books, one that we talked about, and that's Murdoch. Tell us the relationship that you feel that Donald, I saw Rupert in the Oval Office with Larry Ellison a few weeks back. What's the relationship with Trump, Fox News, and the Murdox? Okay, well, it's very complicated. Rupert hates Donald Trump. I mean, I've spoken long before, long before the presidency was even on the horizon for Trump, by Rupert used to talk about him and ridicule him. You know, and Rupert lived in a Trump building for a period when his big apartment on Fifth

Avenue was being renovated, and Jared and Ivanka lived in that building. And he became friends with Jared and Ivanka, or his then wife Wendy really befriended them. But he got to know, you know, Trump was around. And here, I'll give you a story that once, once, Once I was interviewing Rupert, we were having coffee at his apartment in this building, you know, spoke for whatever an hour. And then we left together and on, came down, got on the elevator, came down, midway it stops, doors open and Donald Trump gets on.

And Rupert, who is, you know, an incredible mumbler and talks into his arm, said something, some pleasantry, I suppose. and then Trump turned to me and says, do you ever understand what he's saying? So, but clearly, you know, over the past, you know, since January 6th, you know, Rupert Murdoch set out to use Fox as the means with which to deprive Trump of any possibility of a further political career. really being one of the key people in the invention of the Ron DeSantis bubble. And obviously all of that failed. It turns out that one would have thought that that Trump needed Fox. It turns out Trump is bigger than Fox, that Fox needs Trump. And Rupert, who is always Mr. Ultimately Realpolitik, came to Jesus, really. And I remember somebody told me, described the,

The moment that Trump was in his office behind the desk, the phone rings, and he takes a call, and then he comes outside and says to everybody, well, you'll never believe that was Rupert. And somebody in the outer office says involuntarily Murdoch, they couldn't believe that this finally, the flaw had finally happened. Right. Yeah. Capitulation. Capitulation.

All right. I got you from five more minutes. talk quickly. Give me 30 seconds on Putin. What's the deal there? You know, what is the deal? It's some, some deal. It's either he does have something on Donald Trump or whoever Putin is, whatever he has succeeded at stealing billions of dollars and being the autocrat of our time is weirdly appealing to, weirdly, is directly appealing to Donald Trump. Right. But prima facie, it feels like it's more than any of us can figure out.

Yeah, no. I mean, Steve Bannon always used to say, you know, that there must be something there. Right. We couldn't figure it out. I mean, I talked to Steve about it. I talked to McMaster about it. We couldn't figure it out. All right, I've got five words.

I'm going to read you these five words. I do this with every one of my authors. I'm going to say the word. You're going to say one or two sentences about the word. If I say the word or the concept MAGA, what does this mean to you? What's your reaction to that? It's the Trump world and the Trump reality. Yeah.

And it's basically a hijacking of the former Republican Party, right? It's a decapitation. Yeah. It's really that party now, right? Exactly. Okay. I say Trump world. What do you say?

That closed circle. that he's in the middle of. You know, somebody at once said to me that there's no reality for Trump outside of the sound of his own voice. And that is that world that he inhabits. You know, in my book, I write about these two particular yes people,

Boris Epstein and in this woman, Natalie Harp. So he reinforces this world. So it's a very, very, very circumscribed world. Nothing much gets in, no new information. which was true in reality. Television was true in real estate and is actually also true in politics. Okay.

Three more words. J.D. Vance. I say J.D. Vance, you think what? You know, his lackey, just another person who has drunk the Kool-Aid and that will poison him sooner. So I think Jaddy Vance ends up in the Woodchipper never makes it to the presidency. Oh, absolutely. He's the Mike Pence of this situation. Yes.

Anyone in the vice president. I mean, he doesn't want a vice president. I mean, in the book, I quote him as saying somebody, why do I need a vice president? Yeah. Right. Okay. Two more. Elon Musk?

Steve Bannon. Okay. Last word, I'm going to give you the last word. Donald Trump. You know, the most extraordinary figure of our time for better or worse. Yeah. He tries to stay. It's January, 2000.

He tries to stay? He'll try to stay, but only on a performative basis. He will milk every headline he can milk because that's what he does. That's what he thrives on. That's how he survives. But he's gone on the 20th of the January. He's gone, yes. On the 29th.

Oh, yes. And probably grateful to be gone, by the way. Tell me why. I don't really think he likes being president. I think actually that his life in Marilago, these last number of years, was much, much more pleasant to him, much more satisfying. You know, to go through the campaign, a presidential campaign, an activity that requires superhuman attention, and to begin every day by playing 18 holes of golf, that's unique. Yeah. I agree with you, by the way. He likes the

attention, and if he can make some money off of it, you know, money and attention or the two things in the reptilian brain is really nothing else. So I, I know he doesn't like the pop. I, I know he doesn't like the pomp and circumstance of the presidency in terms of things that he has to do as president. You know, he likes the attention. Yeah, exactly. And he doesn't. You know, when they make him focus on something, it's really annoying to him. And he doesn't do it.

Right. Well, amen. All right. Well, the title of the book is All or Nothing. What a great title. It's very descriptive. I think this is Michael's best book yet. It's incredibly well-sourced.

And there's some brilliant observations. in the book. And if you want to get a sense for the road ahead in the Trump presidency, I'd really recommend to see it's out now. Thank you, Michael, so much for joining us on Open Book. Thank you. And I'll see you on Thursday. All right, well, we're already seeing a response to Michael's book. It's so funny because I know lots of people that spoke to Michael were interviewed by Michael. And of course, he caught a little bit of a glimmer there that he probably also interviewed Trump. Trump can't help himself. He invites these people into his life. I don't know why he doesn't.

He does it, maybe he thinks he can win them over, or maybe he wants to get part of the record. But what Michael wrote in this book, in my opinion, is one of the most extraordinary pieces of inside journalism. Because I've talked to a lot of people in that Trump world, and this is about as clear and as true as it gets. So if you want insight into the second Trump administration, the players around Donald Trump, the personality that is Donald Trump right now at 8.4. 78, heading into 79, and what we can expect from this extraordinarily mad and horrifying person and perhaps one of the most extraordinary and most horrifying in modern political history, tune in by the book. It was riveting reading from me. I couldn't put it down. All right. Ma, how you doing? What are you doing? You got a couple minutes? I've got to put you

on the air for the podcast. Okay. Are you ready? Yeah. All right. So Ma, this week I talked a guy by the name of Michael Wolf who has written four books about Donald Trump and he doesn't like Donald Trump and he's reported a lot of accurate stories about him but what do you think, Maas? Trump,

what's going on with Donald Trump? Go ahead. What do you think's going on there? Okay. Maybe he's even getting a kickback but I don't know that but I'm but he's letting him take a lead like that. Okay. What do you what do you make of Trump himself though?

Is he nuts about or Is he go-gooots? Ma, what's wrong with Trump? I think Trump changed somehow, Anthony. Right. I think that he's very narcissistic, which he always was, and he needs to be center stage. But he needs to be center stage because he's not sure of himself. Otherwise, he would never have musk with him. But, Ma, when you met Donald Trump, he was very nice to you, right?

I introduced you to him. Very, very nice. He was very gracious, right? But when he realized that you speak so well from him, he couldn't handle that. He doesn't want anyone to be better than him. But why is he letting Musk do that, Ma'am? Forget about me. Why is he letting Musk do it?

He's afraid of Musk, because Musk, whatever the hell is his name is, he looks like a madman, this guy. I don't know. Let me tell you how I feel. I'm on a podcast. Tell me how you feel. I've seen nuts in my life and he has crazy eyes. Right. You think Trump is a little crazy or no?

And I think Trump's sure of himself. But if he was sure of himself, he wouldn't have muscle. Right. Right. So something's going wrong, though, right? It's worse this time than it was last time, right? Yeah, of course, because he's like all over the lot. Like, I mean, they want to cut things that are necessary for the handicapped and the mentally ill.

What are you crazy? He should be putting money into it, not cutting it back. I mean, those people are like innocent. I can't fight back. What are you kidding me? It does seem like he's kissing Trump's ass a lot, though. I don't get it 100%, you know. No, no, Trump is kissing.

Trump is kissing his ass a lot more than I would have thought. Do you think that relationship's going to last, ma'am? No. Yeah, it'll flame out, right? It'll flame out because anything, after a while, he gets tired of it. Like, he gets tired of things, Trump. Right. Yeah, I have a picture of Trump with me.

I mean, he was okay in the beginning, but all of a sudden, where the hell's his wife? She seems like she's never in the picture. No, no, she don't even live in the White House. She comes for a certain visits, but she can't stand him. Why? I don't know. Michael Wolf says that she hates him, but I know she hates him because I'm close enough to the situation. You know, she can't stand them.

You know, during the inauguration. Yeah. Yeah, she probably didn't want to get kissed, Ma. You know, she probably didn't want that big orange beast coming at her with the, those purse lips, you know? That if you ran, you would have won. All right, Ma. I know the people in Port Washington would have made.

Yes, I would have been president of Port Washington. The Italians in Port Washington would have voted for. You're so crazy. Not just for Italians. I mean, there's a lot of people in St. Point that are in the no. All right. And other people that are middle class that are in the no.

And they would have voted for you. And they would hustle their bustle for you. And you speak very well. I don't want to make this about me. I'm asking you about Trump and Musk. I didn't want to make it about me. All right, I love you, Mom. Musk looks like he's nuts to me.

I'm not saying that because I'm on the podcast. He's got, look at his, first of all, he's in the White House with a t-shirt on. That's disrespectful to the White House. Right. I agree with that. He's got his little boy there who's adorable, but he doesn't belong in the White House. He's not Jacqueline, he's not Kennedy with his son going underneath the desk. Okay.

You know, I don't, I don't, in the White House. I thought that was offbeat. He's very, very cute, but he doesn't belong in the White House. And he belongs in a suit like everyone else. But if he was really put together, he would wear a suit. He has an ingenious mind to put things together to make money, but he hasn't got the mind to keep himself like everyone else. I guess he wants to be different in a T-shirt.

I mean, my brother was Ghost Motorcycle in the East Coast, and he wore a T-shirt. Right. But when he went out, he always knew how to dress. So when this guy's in the White House, he should be having a suit, no? I agree. That's the way I love you. I think so. All right, Mom.

I'm going to let you go. I love you, Ma. Thank you. All right, thank you. All right, bye. I am Anthony Scarabucci, and that was Open Book. Thank you so much for listening. If you like what you hear, tell your friends, and make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast.

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