Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - Will 2024 Be Our Last Election? with Andrew Yang & Stephen Marche

Episode Date: October 4, 2023

Former presidential candidate and founder of the Forward Party, Andrew Yang and author and essayist Stephen Marche join Open Book this week to discuss their brand-new political thriller The Last Election.  The Last Election is set on the campaign trail of the 2024 presidential race, it is as much as wake-up call as it is fiction. If no candidate can amass the 270 electoral college vote majority, who wins? Could we then see a corrupt seizure of power? And what will become of American democracy as we know it? Andrew and Stephen answer all of this and more… Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is Open book where I talk with some of the brightest minds out there about everything surrounding the written word from authors and historians to figures and entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe, wherever you get your podcast, and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the

parts you're enjoying or how we can do better. You know, I can roll with the punch. You know, I can roll with So let me know. Anyways, let's get to it. The last election, that title alone is chilling. If no candidate can amass the 270 electoral vote majority, who wins? Is the stage then set for a corrupt seize of power? Would that be the end of the American democracy? As you'll hear in this interview with Andrew and Stephen, given our political climate, this book is as much a warning as it is a political thriller, and that's frightening. America is in danger, and we need to be honest with ourselves and each other to find a way to fix it. Joining me now on Open Book, Andrew Yang and Steve Marche, they are authors of the last election. Man, what a book. I mean, this book is scary and it's

entertaining. How did you guys come to work together? Why don't we start there? And then we'll go a little bit into the book, but I don't want to break any spoilers. Sure thing. I interviewed Stephen on his book the next Civil War on my podcast, and we connected on our shared concerns about what's coming down the pike, the U.S. So then when I hatch the idea, it's like, you know, we should try and put an alarm bell out in a story format that people can sink their teeth into. And Stephen said, I write fiction as well, and I have a bunch of research that didn't make it into the next civil war. So let's team up. And Stephen, what do you think of Mr. Yang, right? He's the everybody politician, though, no I mean, because he's not even a politician, which makes him so refreshing when he had great ideas, Mr.

Yeah. So let's talk about Mr. Yang for a second to pretend he's not here. I mean, he's been a marvelous collaborator. I really like the guy. Like, I mean, it's definitely been one of the great pleasures of this process getting to know Andrew. He is truly a patriot with a practical mindset. I mean, we, like, what we don't like aesthetically is the screaming and the rage and the pointlessness of American politics, the non-policy aspects of American politics.

So it was quite a natural fit that way. And then the collaboration itself was just peanut butter and jelly. Like it just worked from the beginning. I mean, it's the easiest collaboration I've ever done. I think it was the same for Andrew. Yeah, same. Andrew, I want to test something. I was out with Dan Abrams last night.

I think we both know Dan. He's on news magazine. He's an anchor there. Also does some work at ABC. He said to me that in polling, and again, I don't know if this is true because I didn't look at it myself, but he said in polling, two-thirds of America agrees on about 85% of the issues. If you went down gun control, all the major issues, two-thirds of America agrees with that.

The majority of the Americans do not want to vote for Joe Biden or for Donald Trump, the majority of the Americans. And they feel frozen in this stasis of boomerism, aging boomerism. And they feel frozen in this like sclerotic political process that is unshakable, unmovable. What's your reaction to that? Do you agree with any of that? What's your reaction to that? And if you agree with it, how did we change it, Andrew? Yeah, Dan's numbers are spot on. Two-thirds of Americans don't want Biden or Trump. Two-thirds of Americans can find common ground on just about any issue. You can name immigration, climate, abortion even. So why are we so stuck? I mean, you can look at each party and explain it pretty readily. The Democrats aren't having a genuine primary, in part because they want to insulate Joe from any real competition, which I think is a calamitous mistake. I think that they should open him up to competition.

and if they don't do that, they should at a minimum have a vice presidential primary and say, hey, we all know that my VP might take over for me. So let's actually have a bit of a debate as to who that should be. So the Democratic Party is frozen. And then the Republican Party is frozen in Trump world until he gets ushered off the stage, which you know, you and I hope is right now. But it doesn't look like it's happening prior to the 2024 general. Yeah, no, exactly. But I mean, here's the thing. I mean, Camilla Harris, she sucks. I mean, just be honest, okay. And she may be the nicest person in the world, and I don't know her personally, but I'm just talking about you've had a two and a half three-year run as VP.

You're nowhere to be found and nobody has any confidence that you can take over. Franklin Roosevelt said, you know what? We're getting rid of John Nance. We're getting rid of Henry Wallace. And I'm going for the fourth time for the presidency with Harry Truman. And again, we know that sausage was made to do that. But come on, guys, this is virtue signaling now. because of her color and because of her sex, they are not going to call this stuff out.

And I got to tell you, that is damaging America that we're losing our meritocracy. What's your reaction? No, I'd say, too, I mean, you can also throw Joe Biden's age into the mix. And the fact is, if you have those issues, then you kind of owe it to the American people to get up there and compete. You know, and say, hey, guys, don't worry about it. So I do want to dig in for a minute. And Anthony, this is going to be my pitch to you and to people listening to this. Like, I have a feeling people listening to this feel somewhat politically adrift or homeless.

They're probably in the two-thirds zone. They can't believe that this might be the matchup in 24. And I've kicked off the forward party with some people you know, Governor Christy Todd Whitman, Carrie Healy, who is Mitt Romney's lieutenant governor in Massachusetts. Chris Nova Salach, who co-founded Nirvana with Kurt Cobain. And we're creating a new home for people. I dare say that you, Anthony, would be right at home because there are a bunch of of people who are just straight up the middle, rational, business owners and operators. And where do

they belong in today's political environment? You need more than these two parties. You know, Miles Taylor hit me up for a donation for you guys. So I've dropped money into your party. Yeah, throw it in there. Yeah, Anthony, you're already one of us. What am I talking about? So just throwing it out to the rest of the country. I'm a big believer in what you're doing, Andrew. I'm a huge fan of yours. Obviously, you know I supported your mayor royal candidacy, including the pack that you were involved with. All right, let's get to the book, though, because this is a phenomenal book. It is a cautionary tale. It's entertaining.

It's scary. There's a doomsday leading up to the 2024 election, if you will. It seems like the third party candidate Cooper Sherman will upset the balance between the two parties. Tell us what's going on. So, Steve and I were trying to game plan what the heck happens if a major independent runs for office. So there's some of me in there, some of Mark Cuban in there, some of Dan Gilbert in there, not to give too much away. But the party is called the Maverick Party, which is a bit of a Cuban callout.

And we tried to tell as realistic story as we could as to what that campaign actually looks like from the inside. And then what impact that would have. Yeah. And we wanted to, the frame of it as a contingent election, which is a sort of a little-known historical phenomenon if no one gets to 270 electoral college votes that goes into effect. And that would be a, that was a sort of warning about what a. constitutional election would look like that's very much not democratic, right? And where it fits

what the Constitution says, but the winner hasn't won the popular vote or the electoral college vote. And sort of that was the imagining of how America, the Republic, would end. So I have a theory. I want to test it on both. You get your reaction. I think Ross Perrault killed the third party movement in the country back in 1992. And for our young listeners, a Perrault ran in 92. Clinton and Bush, Bush the elder were running. He took 19.9% of the vote. Bill Clinton won that election. He got to the 270, but he won the election with only 43% of the popular vote. And I think Ross Perrault scared the living daylights guys out of the oligopoly or the duopoly. The Republicans and the Democrats got together and said, okay, let's lock and load and block.

a third party. They need XYZ number of petitions. They need ZYYX, legal things. And they put up all of these major guardrails, obstacles and barriers so that you could barely get into all 50 states if you were a third party candidate. 2012, there was a gentleman. You may remember him. I'm going blank on his name, but he tried to start a movement over the internet to create a third party. Peter Ackerman, Americans elect. Yeah, America's elect. There you go. And he came to see me and he explained to me what he was doing. It seemed like a great thing. But Andrew, it felt like, Webvans. Okay, and Webvans went bankrupt. We know that Webvans is Instagram. Webvans, 25 years ago, got started when bankrupt, Instagram became a success, has now gone public in the past couple of days.

I guess my question to you guys is, did they do it? Did they freeze themselves into this duopoly where you can't see a third party really entering the mix, making seismic change to the country? Or is there a icebreaker in there that you guys are working on? Oh, we're working on it. And what's fascinating is that The number of self-identified independence is just about doubled since Ross Perra ran in 92. Back then it was 25% and he got 19%. Today, it's 49%. And if you had, I think, the right candidates and the right process, you could really win. You know, if you just look at those numbers, because you don't need 51% to win. You need the right 37, 38%.

It's a very, very high bar, but I think it's very realistic. I do think that you're going to have multiple candidates run outside of the two-party system this cycle, in part because two-thirds of Americans don't want Biden or Trump. And so other people are going to look at that and say, oh, this is my chance. The obstacles are real, but the opportunities getting bigger and bigger. And Peter Ackerman's Americans elect was going to be over the internet. One of the things I'm going to put out to you all right now, which is not in the book, that we could have put it in the book, is imagine a process where you can vote for a presidential candidate. on your smartphone. It gets verified via personalized QR code that gets sent to your mailing address, which is very hard to defraud. And then you have, let's say, the Rock, Mark Cuban, me, Justin Amash,

Adam Kinzinger, Liz Cheney, Nina Turner, whoever your favorite candidate is who would be ill-served by the two-party system. By the way, we're a country of 330 million people. We're going to get Biden versus Trump. It makes no sense. But if you think about a lot of the excellent people out there who would make great presidents, a lot of them know that they're going to get done dirty by one of the two parties that they decide to run. I mean, heck, again, the Democrats aren't even having a primary. So imagine a genuinely open, lowercase D, Democratic primary that everyone can vote for on their smartphones. It would leave the legacy parties leapfrogged because they would say, no, no, no, this internet primary, your vote isn't real. What is real is waiting to hear what 7% of Iowans think and, you know,

20% of South Carolinians. And then the people around the rest of the country, would be like, what are you talking about? I'm finally in the 21st century. So this is 100% on the table, Anthony. It may not come to pass in 24, but it can as soon as 28. And by the way, a political party can design its own primary process however it wants. Everything I just said is 100% legit. It's just the two current parties don't want us to have a say. They want to lock down the process, control it and make sure that their chosen candidate is the only candidate. Yeah. I mean, when I was, you know, I came at this, I'm not an insider like you guys. I was like, I'm an outsider. But when I came to sort of write the book and get the details of the, of even things like how debates are set up, very basic functions of like how the process is run, it really is a cartel between the two parties. They intentionally exclude other people. And that by doing that, incidentally, the incentives that are created for the parties are, you know, that is a major problem here, that they create this partisanship.

I mean, it's like you said before, like two thirds of Americans could come to some kind of reasonable compromise. But the system is actually set up to prevent them from doing that because the loathing and fury fuels these parties and raises money for them and essentially keeps them, you know, outside of competition. And that's actually like, that's actually built into the structure of American politics. It's not, the problem isn't the people. The problem is actually these structures. So, so I have two theories. Again, I want to test on both. You get your reactions. Okay, theory number one, the gerrymandering is now completely outrageous. You know, Operation RedMap for the Republicans, the Blue State Project for the Democrats, it's absolutely outrageous. I submit rhetorically,

are we in a democracy? Are we in a democracy if the candidates themselves are picking the voters? I thought the voters were supposed to pick the candidates. That's number one. The second theory I have is I think Citizens United has by and large destroyed the country because Citizen United to understand constitutional law is the Plessy versus. Ferguson for the democracy. And so let me just go to Plessy quickly. Supreme Court said in Plessy that you could have separate but equal facilities for blacks and whites. It led to widespread segregation in the South. It took 80 years for the court to go back on that with Brown versus the Board of Education, which caused the formal integration of the education system. But the Citizens United

has funneled the money into it. These politicians are now bought and paid for. If you look at the tax breaks, the corporate welfare, and you look at the the indifference to middle and lower middle class people, they don't need them anymore. They screen out their enemies from their districts. They take the money in from the very, very rich, and they do exactly what the very rich want and the defense contractors want. And we're in this stasis. And the people that you're supporting and the people that Andrew's working for are left out.

What is your reaction of those two? Yeah, it's spot on. We're in something of a fake democracy at the moment. One of the numbers I give, and this speaks to your gerrymandering point, the congressional approval rating as we're having this conversation is about 20%. The reelection rate for incumbent members is 94%. Think about that. That's a better win rate than the Jordan Air of Chicago Bulls for people like you and me, Anthony. Yeah, yeah. And so you look at that and say, how the heck can that be so divergent? It's because 90% of the districts are drawn to be either quite blue or quite red, because if there's anything the two parties can agree on is we don't like to compete.

The fact is 75% of Americans live in a one-party state where one-party controls the trifecta. There are only a sliver of competitive races around the country because the lines have been drawn that way. And it's making more and more Americans angry and frustrated. Again, imagine if you were pissed off, like four to five of us are apparently, and you can't do anything because your district has been drawn to be non-competitive. Then what are you left with? You end up being left with really only one race, the presidential race, That's the only one you can touch. And that's how we got Donald Trump, in my opinion, is that there's no real pressure release valve

for the will of the vast majority of Americans right now. And so it's going to lead us last election style up to something very, very negative and dark. Or we're going to modernize an innovator way out of this. I'm grinding away to make the second thing happen. But when I was at the event with you this past week, Anthony, some young people came up to me. And they said to me, it's like, hey, are we going to do the reforms before or after? And I said, this being America, probably after. You know, like, after the what, though, you know?

And is there an after? And that in many ways is the big question. Let's go to some of the characters in your book, guys. And it's a phenomenal read. I read it very quickly. You have Mikey, the independent campaign manager for Cooper. You have the New York Times journalist Martha. Who would you compare them to in the real world?

Andrew, don't do it then. Well, I mean, they're both composites and they're both like they're drawn from, you know, we interviewed lots of people. I interviewed lots of people and we talked to lots of people. I mean, the Martha, you know, I felt like Andrew really gave me this sort of scuttlebutt on how politics actually works. And I asked for honesty about it and he gave me honesty. So I figured I owed him the same thing with journalists. Like I just, I just wanted an accurate portrayal of like what, how, conflicting it is and how difficult it is to be a New York Times journalist and how that leads to

sometimes difficult moral choices. And similarly with Mikey, there's like a bunch of campaign people that that could be. I guess because I've been, you know, up and down the political spectrum and, you know, obviously had my rough and tumble in politics and saw some of the garrishness of it. I mean, it's a rough crowd. Am I wrong? I mean, one thing Trump said to me in the Oval Office, I could tell you guys, he said it to me on a Wednesday. I know that because I was only there for one Wednesday. Okay. I was sitting there with them. And he said to me, you know, these people are nuts. He goes, I thought I was a killer and I was working with these real estate people, these titans. And I thought they were killers. He goes, the goddamn secretary's down here will pick your eyeballs out and put it in a martini

glass. You know, he was like, this is a totally different set of rules, a totally different operation down there. As much as I dislike him, it was an interesting observation about the incentives and the culture and politics. What do you think of that? I think there are certainly people who represent and reflect that kind of culture and mentality where they have a place in the machine and they will fight for it with their life and they will do very, very dark things on behalf of the machine and not think twice about it. I think that's real. I also think that there are well-intended noble people who get into those sorts of roles and then are like, what the hell do I do? I think that's actually one of the major themes of the book. But

if we don't upend this machine, we're ruined. And that's one of the things that is, and when I say the machine, you could say this corrupt duopoly that's going to keep us from solving any problems and turn us against each other. You could say the media industrial complex that will take anyone and try and twist it to their ends in like a fun house mirror. You can talk about this layer of bureaucratic types who are just look up and say, hey, I'm just going to wait you out because I've been here 20 years and I'll be here 20 years more and you're going to come and go. I mean, like, there are layers to the machine. You can pretty much pick whichever one

is your least favorite. And one of the interesting things, Anthony, is when I ran for president, I was running on automation, AI, UBI, a bunch of things. And it was, and our slogan was humanity first. It was like, you know, it's essentially humanity versus the machine. I still think that's what we're doing with Forward Party and with this book, which is trying to say, look, guys, like, you know, we need to get our shit together versus the machines plural. What was that line from Ezra Klein, Andrew, that we thought about all the time? Because that to me is like how people are affected by the machine. Like that's what the book is about.

It's like you can be good people. But if you're in this machine, it doesn't really matter. Yeah. So Ezra Klein said corrupt systems compromise good individuals with ease. And that is in many ways the best summary of where we are. Well, I mean, here's, here's, you know, I think he's right as well. And I listened to him. I read that book. I guess what I'm super worried about is that there's nobody in elected politics that I can point to you guys and Andrew's a great advocate. But I'm talking about there's an elected official in the United States, a national figure that's willing to speak the truth about all this and then come up with a prescription to change it. If I'm wrong about that, tell me who is the elected official in the Congress. He's in the Senate. He's, he's, a governor of prominence and he's like, you know, or she's a governor of prominence, you know, we got to change this. There are elected officials who are aligned and privately sympathetic.

The one who's most public about it is Congressman Dean Phillips out of Minnesota. He recently made the news by saying, guys, we need to have a competitive primary against Joe. And as you can imagine, he got shibed pretty bad immediately thereafter. He's the only person I know in Congress. who said, I'm not going to dial for dollars. My constituents deserve someone who's actually going to focus on legislating and not fundraising. You can imagine how that endears him to the party. He's a business person who has some means. So that kind of liberates him from the fundraising nonsense.

But he's the person who comes to mind for me. Okay. I have to admit that I missed him. And maybe just not as well known because you're probably close. They're trying to suppress the shit out of him, Anthony, honestly. Like he, but he's a good dude. He's like, he's one of us, really. And when I met him, I was like, holy shit.

Like, you know, you're the real deal. He came to D.C. and was like, this is even worse than I thought. It's like that situation. You think that the loop between the journalist and the political candidate, they do favors for each other? They drop dimes on each other? 100%. Like journalists and political, you know,

this Anthony. When I got into the White House, Prebus absolutely hated my guts. Of course, he was like, howdy duty. You know, he's like Kenosha, no stro. You know, the mafia from Wisconsin. Hated my guts, but he was all like howdy duty and trying to pretend he was nice to me. But then he was dropping dimes on me to journalists trying to get them to write nasty articles about me, you know?

What's your reaction all that? 100%. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I never really knew that world. But, yeah, access journalism works that way. And of course, I mean, part of the problem that this book is trying to identify, I I think Andrews nonfiction and my nonfiction both identify is that, you know, horse race politics is mostly a bunch of tinsel being shaken in your face, right? Like it's mostly a distraction, like some kind of like melodramatic distraction from the deep structural problems that actually need to be addressed.

Right. I mean, when you say like who's working on this stuff, there's only one guy that they're immediately going to suppress when everybody knows. Everybody, everybody who has eyes to see knows that the system is not working and is getting worse. To me, like this little game that is played around creating these narratives and dropping these narratives that, you know, usually lost a few days is so pointless. I mean, it's just, it's really one step up from reality television, maybe not even a step. Yeah, which is one reason why we end up with a reality TV star as president. You know what I mean? No question.

Well, we're in the entertainment business now. We're not, we're not in the hiring process. It's not a hiring process. It's an entertainment contest, popularity contest. Okay, guys, I've got to ask you this question. the blockchain. Andrew, you're a sophisticated tech guy. You know that we could secure and open the system.

You know, if we wanted in the country with face ID, fingerprint ID, we could identify the legal voters, the American citizens that could vote. We could do it anonymously over the blockchain, and we can allow them to vote from their homes. We know that we could do this. The same way that your face passes the TSA terminal. when you have global entry, then you leave the airport. But we also know that that will never come to pass

because they actually don't want that large voting block of people to come into the game. What's your reaction to that? Yeah, again, man, you're totally right. It's an incentives problem. And the only way it's going to happen is through something like the Forward Party, just making it happen and saying, look, guys, like this is the way we're going to do it. I'm advising a company called Ultrapass that would do what you're describing.

There are ways to do it via the blockchain. and not on the blockchain. The fact is, even without the blockchain, you could have internet voting or something along those lines. And then you go to the parties and say, hey, guys, great news. More people can vote. And you know what you get back from them? They don't actually want that. They want a very, very contained, finite, predictable universe of voters that they can get out in the same way cycle after cycle. And if you say we're going to expand that base, they will fight it, honestly like and then they might say things like hey it's not secure it's untested and then you can say military veterans are using it right now and it's actually very vetted and here like a dozen

studies saying it would be fine and there's no factual argument that's that's one of the dangerous things about this time is that there are people that will pretend things are fact-based but they're they're really self-interested um so the blockchain is an enormous example of that in terms of its untapped potential to disintermediate a lot of lot of things politically, there are these organizations that essentially exist to be the intermediary, to dilute popular will. Well, I mean, listen, guys, I mean, this has been an amazing conversation. I want to go back to the book.

Why should somebody read this book, Stephen? Well, I think it contains, you know, a kind of unprecedented amount of information about the political process. Like, I mean, you know, the deal when we, when Andrew approached me with this book is, like, I want the honesty. I want you to have all your consultants tell me the truth. And I want your staff to tell me the truth and you tell me the truth. And then you can cut whatever you want at the end of it. But he, you know, we cut almost nothing. It is a, you know, it is a minute description of how this process actually works in a thriller and in a sort of paranoid political thriller. But the paranoia is justified. I'm old enough to remember primary colors. Did you guys read that? I was obsessed with it. Yeah. Yeah, this is better than primary colors. I mean, nice, nice, man alive.

Better than primary colors. Let's put that up. No, it's better than primary colors. I'm happy to put that on the paperback. I'll tell you why it was better than primary colors because it was so graphically honest. Okay. Joe Klein was writing about the characters, but he was leaving it a little lazy. You guys are really describing what happens, and you can do that in fiction.

So if you want to learn the truth about American politics and the presidential political system, read the fiction book the last election. No, that's exactly what we wanted to do. Yeah. That's very, very high praise, Anthony. And there are some Hollywood types now sniffing around the screen rights. But we think this is the next generation, more accurate, true to life, primary colors. They did not hold back. I mean, I got, they told me how it works. And it was pretty stunning to me as an outsider. Well, I have to tell you guys, I loved it. And I wish a great success with the book. My one last question, and this is to bowl. Both of you, we'll start with you, Steve.

We'll let Andrew end it. Do you think you're too forward thinking for America as it is now? And I guess what I'm saying, and I love that about you because I guess what I'm saying is good leadership brings the country someplace. You know, I mean, if you think about Franklin Roosevelt, if you like him or dislike him, he led. He said, okay, look, we've got to put these things in place to save the middle and lower middle class.

And people didn't want it or they didn't realize they wanted it, but it was good leadership. And, again, you may not like it from a conservative idea. point of view, but it was good leadership. Are you two forward things for America as it is now? You go first, Steve. Well, look, I'm a Canadian, so I'm kind of an outsider to this. But I will just say the one thing I know from being a Canadian is that the problem is not Americans, right? The problem is this arcane political system that is failing them. But if there has ever been a people on earth that can solve their political crises by reconsidering the basis of their government,

it is the United States. Those are the people who can do it. So, On the one hand, I don't feel like the system is obviously very decrepit. But on the other hand, you really have to think about who Americans are. And like, if anyone can do it, it's really Americans. That's so positive about us, Stephen. You know, my parents immigrated here. I'm the son of immigrants. Love this country dearly.

And think that we're a little bit behind the curve in a bunch of ways. And that Joe Biden and Donald Trump are kind of the embodiments of some of this behind the curve The question is, can we actually speed up and catch up? My joke has been that DC is on a 20-year tape delay because of the gerontocracy and a bunch of other things, but you can't be on a 20-year tape delay now in the 21st century and get away with it. We're going to either get our acts together before or after. I'm scrambling like heck to make it before because I think the thing we're trying to avoid is calamitous, is disastrous. I'm going to just name it. I think a second Trump term would be, catastrophe for the country. It would really hurt, really hurt the democracy. I mean, it would really imperil the democracy. Yeah. And I mean, I think that as we're having this conversation, there's a strong possibility,

maybe even a likelihood that that occurs. And that's nuts. Leave Biden and Kamala Harris on the ticket for the Democrats. He gets in. It's better than 50-50. He becomes the president again. Yeah, yeah. I know.

You have the same read on it. Everyone can be mad at me for that, but that's the truth. Yeah. we're clear-eyed observers. I mean, and the wild thing, Anthony, is like there are a bunch of people who purport to be clear-eyed observers

who are ideological at this point. And then you're looking at them being like, come on, guys. You know, like 81's a number. It's a real number. They get so mad at you, Andrew, we tell the truth. So I actually lied because we have five words

that I always end the podcast with. My producer is reminding me of this. So I'm going to read out these five words, okay? And then I want you to react to them. Okay. So, Andrew, you're going to go first. I'm going to say the word Republican.

Need a home. That's not a word, but that's what came to mind for me. Oh, yeah. That's exactly right. What sentence. Stephen, Democrat. Scared. Andrew Forward.

What the country wants. Okay. And now for both of you, the word democracy, let's start with you, Stephen. Well, my grandfather had to go and fight Germany for. I mean, the most important political idea in history and what it is our duty to preserve from our ancestors. Andrew, democracy. What Americans deserve. Americans deserve a real democracy. Okay, last word. Let's start with Stephen, because he's a Canadian. America, Stephen. Freedom to say what you want. Andrew. I just thought, the beautiful. America, the beautiful.

Yeah, it's interesting. You know, America, I think together. I think that it's a grand experiment. You know, we have to figure out a way to stick together. It got us here. We're so different. I think about my parents being so in love with the country, my grandparents, you know. I'll tell you guys something, you know, my dad passed away this past week. Great, you know, I'm saying it out of love. You know, he was 88. He was a hard worker, blue collar guy, and he died at 88, and he died peacefully, and it was a great life. And Andrew heard me say this at an event that we were at. I read through my ancestry from Italy because my daughter is getting her citizenship. And I'm from a family of peasants, day workers. I think a chicken helper or something was like. I mean, it was like all of these different things.

When we got back into the early 1800s because the Italians used the Napoleonic Code, you could trace it all the way back there. I think it was a feudal farmer. Basically meant that the person was a slave was working for wages and housing. I mean, no wages, housing and food. And I just have to think about America. You can never lose hope in America. Look at what we're all doing here today in America. And look at the way our grandparents or your dad, if he was a Canadian, loved and supported freedom and democracy by fighting the Nazis, you know. So it's just something that we all have to think about. I love what you're doing. I'm a huge fan. Andrew, if you run again, I hope you'll come to me. I have money for you set aside. Okay. I'm sorry I didn't become mayor, actually. I thought you were to do it a great job. And I certainly had money

there in that race. And I wish you great success with this book. It's called The Last Election. And thank you so much for joining us on Open Book. Really fun. Thank you so much, Anthony. As we close in on, 2014, understanding our democratic system is critical. What I loved about our conversation today is the raw honesty of what's going on, the circuit between the political candidate, the campaign manager, and the journalist, the decisions that get made, some levels of cynicism and nefariousness. But truth be told, the system is broken. The smartest people in that system know that it's broken, but the people that are really focused on their own personal power and self-aggrandizement don't care. And they keep running the system into the ground. And unfortunately, we know from history

when this happens, there's usually a seismic change or a seismic break politically. The idea that a third candidate could win enough electors to upset the party balance is more possible now than ever before. And so there's going to be a lot of freaky-deak things that happen as we continue to undermine the American democracy through this sort of what I would call this staged duopoly. Remember what Andrews said. The House of Representatives, the Congress, the Senate has about a 20% approval rating if they have a 94% reelectability. It does sound like the system is very broken. We'll have to see what happens, but read this book. You'll learn a lot about American politics. There's a lot of truth in this book, despite it being fiction. All right. You're ready to go back on the air, Ma?

I'll go on the other room, so I don't bother to get you. All right. All right. All right. You're ready? So who's going to be the next president, ma'amese, Garamucci? No, come on, Ma. Be serious. I'm not running for president. Who's going to be the next president? Who's going to be the next president? You'd think Trump's going to be next president, right? Okay, tell me why. Because he doesn't have anyone that forceful running against him. Okay, and so he's going to beat everybody. Maybe. Okay.

I don't know. Maybe. I think the middle and lower class will probably both for him. Okay, so let me ask you this. So suppose there was a third party that came in, like, I don't know, Joe Manchin. Well, not me. I'm not running for president, but I'm talking about somebody. Do you think the American people are now fed up with the Republicans and the Democrats,

or you think they'll stay with one of the two traditional parties? They'll stay with one of the two additional parties. Okay, tell me why. Traditional party. Tell me why. Americans don't like change like some of the other countries do. Right. Well, that's why we have these 90-year-old people still in office, right?

Right. Okay. Yes. I just read a book by Stephen Marshay and Andrew Yang that talked about the connection and sometimes the unethical behavior, frankly, between the politicians and the members of the media. Does that surprise you, Ma, that some people are unethical in politics or in the media? No, it doesn't surprise me because usually when you had to become presidents, I think Trump is narcissistic and he's very into himself, but he has a certain demeanor compared to the other president. Okay.

And he has like a force when he talks and the medium to lower class people would vote for him. Okay. But I mean, I'm talking about the media being a little rigged, you know, where it's a little contrived now at this point. Do you believe that or you don't believe that? Uh, yes or no. Yeah, not 100%, yes or no. Okay, so who do you like in the media, Ma? Like, when you turn on the TV, you say that person's telling the truth. And I'm not talking about Mr. G who does the weather. I'm talking about like a journalist or somebody. Do you like Chris Cuomo as an example, or who do you like? I think Chris Cuomo is very humble, and he, I don't think he feared hurt people. Okay, so who in the media do you like, Ma? We know you like Chris Cuomo, but who else?

Who do I like? Give me examples like who. Okay. Like who are you talking about? I don't know. I'm Anderson Cooper. I do his show a lot. He's got the short.

I like him. Okay, tell me why you like him. Because I think he's very intellectual and he speaks very well. What about Maria Bordoroma? I like her too. Like her, right? Yeah, he does. Why do you like her?

Because she's Italian? What do you like her? Well, I like her because she is Italian. and Italians from the upper class Italians, which I sound like a snub, are usually very honest. You know what I mean? If they're not connected in anything, they're usually very honest. They're more humble. Right.

So you basically just said that you don't think Maria Bardoom was in the mob, right? Right. She was a head check person in the coat room. Right. Would you be in the mob if she had that. She was checking people's coats at her father and mother's cave. I read about her. So why would she be in the mob?

I don't think so. No, I get it. I was stocking shells again. She has a certain stance of regalness when she speaks. I don't think she's fulny. Yeah, well, I love Maria. I'm glad that you like her. I think she's great.

Okay, so, Ma, what about corruption, Ma? You think there's a lot of corruption in politics? Absolutely. Yeah. Why are these guys such stinkers, ma'am? What do you think the reason is? The money, they could carry the way with the money. And the power, right?

And the power. Okay. Mostly the power and then the money falls in second. All right, let's leave it there, Ma. Thank you for joining Open Book. Love you, Ma. Love you, baby. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was Open Book.

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