Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci - World Economic Forum Founder: This Is the Most Disruptive Moment in Human History - Klaus Schwab

Episode Date: January 20, 2026

Professor Klaus Schwab founded the World Economic Forum in 1971 as an independent platform for dialogue among business, government, academia, and civil society. Under his leadership, it became a key global institution promoting public-private collaboration and shaping ideas like stakeholder capitalism and the Fourth Industrial Revolution. With his wife, Hilde, he created the Schwab Foundation for Social Entrepreneurship to foster innovation and social impact worldwide. In 2025, he launched the Schwab Academy to prepare leaders for the emerging Intelligent Age. 📚Get his books here: Thriving and Leading in the Intelligent Age Longevity and Retirement in the Intelligent Age Restoring Truth and Trust The Fourth Industrial Revolution Anthony Scaramucci is the founder and managing partner of SkyBridge, a global alternative investment firm, and founder and chairman of SALT, a global thought leadership forum and venture studio. He is the host of the podcast Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci. A graduate of Tufts University and Harvard Law School, he lives in Manhasset, Long Island. 📚 Get a copy of my books: Solana Rising: Investing in the Fast Lane of Crypto ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://amzn.to/43F5Nld⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ From Wall Street to the White House and Back ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://amzn.to/47fJDbv⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Little Book of Bitcoin ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://amzn.to/47pWRmh⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Little Book of Hedge Funds ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://amzn.to/43LbM83⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Hopping over the Rabbit Hole ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://amzn.to/3LaykJb⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Goodbye Gordon Gekko ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://amzn.to/47xrLYs⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🎥 𝗕𝗼𝗼𝗸 𝗮 𝗖𝗮𝗺𝗲𝗼 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗔𝗻𝘁𝗵𝗼𝗻𝘆! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.cameo.com/themooch⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🎙️ Check out my other podcasts: The Rest is Politics US - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@RestPoliticsUS⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Lost Boys - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYFf6KS9ro1p18Z0ajmXz5qNPGy9qmE8j&feature=shared⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ SALT - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/c/SALTTube/featured⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 📱 Follow Anthony on Social Media Instagram - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/scaramucci/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ X - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/Scaramucci⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ LinkedIn - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/anscaramucci/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@ascaramucci?lang=en⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ YouTube - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@therealanthonyscaramucci Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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future. If you go back to the agricultural society, even to the beginnings during the whole time of the Industrial Society, there was this drive to create a better world for the future. With all the crisis which we have, with the multitude of problems we are confronted with, I think we have become much more egocentric on an individual and also on a national way. And I think we have to think about how we recreate this narrative. Welcome to Open Book. I am your host, Anthony Scaramucci.

Joining us today is Professor Klaus Schwab. He is the founder of the World Economic Forum. He's got a couple of books out, a couple of brilliant books, thriving and leading in the intelligent age, longevity and retirement in the intelligent age. Of course, we can learn a lot from the professor on both of these subjects. It's an honor to have you. You've spent your light bringing together leaders from business, politics, and science, and civil society.

But before we discuss the book, The Intelligent Age, tell us a little bit about your origin story and a little bit about the formation of the World Economic Forum, which has become this brilliant platform for leaders and diplomacy. And, you know, you're one of the people that generationally has furthered the peace process, sir. So let's talk about the origin. Let's talk about the idea that you came up with and why. No, I had, Anthony, I had a very good and fast. development, professional development in my young ages as a professor. I was the youngest professor in Switzerland, but also in business and in public affairs. And I wrote the book, I was asked to write the book by the German Business Association on management and on the modern

management. And I was thinking about the purpose and I actually described for the first time what is called today's the stakeholder concept. And it was at a time when, of course, you had Milton Friedman presenting his views, that the business of business is business. I felt no business has also social responsibility. So I wrote the book, it was a success, and then I felt I should create the foundation to promote the stakeholder concept. That was the origin of doubles.

And of course, I never dream that out of an idea, a very impactful organization would come out. So I'm very grateful for the support I had by so many of our partners and so on, who embraced this philosophy. Klaus, a half a century ago, the world was deeply divided by ideology at the Cold War. You had the tension with China, Russia, the United States, Western powers in general. How were you able to thread that needle and bring these people together at that time? What were some of the thoughts that you had there? I think despite all the differences, there's always the need to exchange ideas, even if you are in a controversial situation.

So what I created was a platform which was based on open dialogue, but also on showing mutual respect. And that was the basic principle. It worked already in the Cold War time, particularly we played a big role in the reunification of Germany, in the integration of Eastern and Western Europe and so on, and also in other parts. of the world. So that was the secret to really provide a trusted platform for dialogue. You know, I've been to the, I was just going back through my career. I originally got introduced to you by Michael Dell, who was on your board. Michael's one of my early investors, and I started going to the world economic form in 2007. I've also came with you to China

on more than one occasion. And I've never left the forum without learning something, meeting new friends, having a good time. Tell us a little bit about the editorial process. When you step back and think each year of the programming of something like this, what were some of the thoughts that drove the editorial decisions? No, you are right. Davos, I think, was successful because it was not just a platform, a time. a transactional platform for business or for meeting government people. It always, in my opinion, had to serve as a compass, an intellectual compass and a moral compass.

So I spend a lot of time to figure out what the future will bring and to put it on the program of Davos. And we created also some new concepts like the concept of social entrepreneurship, the concept of public-private partnership, which was not very well known, or I take all those, this notion of the forced industrial revolution, which I coined, where I said, we have to prepare ourselves, and it was already in 2016, for a completely new era, where artificial intelligence and other technologies will completely change our lives. So I, and I've directly benefited from that.

Let's go to the book, thriving and leading in an intelligent age. It reflects decades of engagement with these leaders across a lot of different sections. But once again, mankind, we're at a crossroads again, where we have human and artificial intelligence that's going to deeply impact the political world and the economic world. when you look at this now, what is your message? What is your synthesizing message for world leaders, both business and political? I think we have to go back 200 years. And 200 years ago, we had the transition of the agricultural era into the industrial era. So we suddenly had locomotives with electricity and so on and so on.

Now, I would say the change which is happening now is as serious and as impactful as it was in the tradition from the agricultural to the industrial age. So I wanted to coin an expression for it. It's not just artificial intelligence. It's also quantum computing. It's life sciences and so on, which will completely change our lives. So I feel similar to the transition we had 200 years ago, we have now a life-changing, system-changing transition from the industrial age to the intelligent age.

And it will affect all aspects of political, economic, social, technological, and also environmental dimensions. I feel like this age of AI is now fully understood. And when I read your writing, I feel you have a good grasp on it. So tell me, in your opinion, Klaus, what is misunderstood about this evolution that's taking place right now? What concerns me most is, of course, we use now ancient AI to provide us with advice. And in many ways we start to make our lives dependent on ancient AI. So for example, you have now ancient IAI which communicates with you, provides you with

advice, if you have serious mental problems. And what concerns me and what disturbs me, there's always a positive on the negative side, But ultimately, ultimately, what is behind the algorithm should reflect our human nature. And you have seen in the book, I insist again and again, that actually we should use the evolution of the artificial intelligence as a reminder or as a wake-up call for what actually it means to be human. If human doesn't mean anymore to be intelligent, then we have to define humanity in different ways. It's in terms of empathy, it's in terms of love and so on. So we have to make sure that when we create those agents, we integrate those dimensions

so that the effect is a positive one, and not a destructive one. Let me ask a follow-up question directly related to this, Klaus. The superintelligence is upon us. It's eminent. Is it five years from now or 10 years from now? And, of course, describing superintelligence as being something exponential for these computers in terms of their ability to pick up information and to potentially end up controlling things. What do you say about that? What are your concerns there and how can we allay those concerns? We can avoid the negative aspects, which means to be dominated by the machine, by building

into the algorithm, into the machine learning process, into the data, the necessary protective measures. My big concerns at the moment is that we are not able to do so. The world, I put it into a broader context at this moment, is so absorbed. by what we call a multi-crisis. And when we look around what are politicians doing, what are, to a certain extent also the leaders of companies and society, we are not sufficiently thinking anymore long term.

So my big fear is that we do not in time create the necessary protection. for those new technologies, against those new technologies. You've experienced this your entire life. You have allies and adversaries globally. We've got the good guys and the bad guys clout. We both know that. There's a combination of them in our lives. How do you prevent the bad guys from doing nefarious things with AI?

I think there's no, after, let's say, unfortunately, no recipe which is generally valid. But I have for me the notion of constructive optimism. That's one of my life principles, which means you have to believe that the future will be better than today. But then you also have to make sure that it is better than today. So you have to take a constructive attitude. But the problem is today everything is integrated into a system with many different dimensions, political, economic, social and so on.

So you need actually cooperation. You have to bring the different stakeholders together to determine those guidelines, those protective measures which we need. So dialogue, dialogue and dialogue related to the truth is not to, let's say, what we believe only. We have to first establish the truth and then we have to have dialogue and to find the optimal solution, not in our individual interest, but in the interest of the collective. And here, Anthony, if I may add, my next book will actually be restoring truth and trust

in the intelligent age. I think it's very important. And also the checks and balances that you describe are also usually important because we still have the power to control those things. Exactly. Still, still is important because it awaits us slowly. Yeah, exactly. We don't want it to get ahead of ourselves.

I want to go to one of the central themes of the book, which you described as purpose-driven leadership. And so, you know, it's just a fascinating question. I've always been dying to ask you this. And so I want to ask you to now, what distinguishes leaders? You've met so many different leaders over the course of your career class, political, business, civic, academic. You know right away when someone's a purpose-driven leader, when some person is a transactionalist. So what distinguishes these people? And what are some of the cues? I, of course, I have all support. leadership for 32 years at the university and have read tons of books about leadership. But for me it comes down to a very simple concept.

And I describe it in the following way. A true leader has soul, brain, heart, muscles and nerves. So you may ask what is it nonsense? No. The soul stands for purpose. and actually purposing includes also a value-driven vision, how you want to shape the future. That's the soul. But then you need the brain, you need intelligence, and today you need particularly systemic intelligence to bring all the ends together.

And then you have to have the heart. Today you need empathy. You have to be respected, not only to be respected. People have to feel a connection with the leader. Finally, you need muscles because you have to translate your vision and your purpose into action. And ultimately, you need nerves. You need good nerves. You need resilience. And for me, what is important, a true leader, he may not excel in each of those.

But he needs each of those dimensions. We have a tendency usually to see someone who excels in one of those five dimensions and are to be very impressed. But my experience of life is there is no leader, which doesn't incorporate at least a significant level in each of those five dimensions. You know, it says a good statement. It does tie into the other book, which I want to ask you about as well, which is the longevity and retirement in an intelligent age. And I will say this, Clouse, you're a role model of mine

because I feel like your best days are ahead of you, Klaus. I mean, you're as vibrant and as energetic as ever before. And so tell me what the secret is. The secret, I think, is always to be curious and to have a positive attitude towards life. I, you know, Anthony, like everybody, I also went through some challenges in my life and I have now the principle never lose time with something which is negative because it doesn't help you. So I think that's the foremost secret and of course to have to a sub-exam to discipline life. Of course I like my wine and I like from time to time risky. I'm risky, but in principle, I know you like twice, but the general attitude is to have a certain life discipline.

Yeah, I mean, there's no question. I mean, one of our personal stories together, which I'm going to share here on our podcast, is that when President Trump was elected to the presidency, you actually reached out to me, and I brought you over to Trump Tower to meet him. I think it was the first time he had the opportunity to meet him. And, of course, now he's a frequent attendant of the world economic forum. We'll be coming again again this year. And I had unceremonious firing from there. But like you, I took things in stride. So give some life coaching here, Klaus. For people that go through ups and downs in their lives,

what do they need to do to maintain that positivity? I think what is important, if you're honest, such a situation, not to spend too much time on what worries you. So to find immediately another challenge. And for me, whenever I was in such a situation, I started to write a new book. So my present energy in writing, let's say, several books in a relatively short time, comes from two angles. First, it helps me to overcome challenges, which I may have had.

And second, I think we speak a lot about artificial intelligence, about the intelligent age, and we do it relatively in a abstract way. So what I want to do with this series now looking at retirement, some I have another book in preparation looking at universities since the intelligent age. What I want to do is to provide general people with a practical knowledge how they can master this transition into a completely different world. Makes sense. I'm a big admirer of Warren Buffett turning 95. I'm an admirer of yours.

Only 87. You're only 87. You're my mom's age, Klaus. And she's as sharp as you, Klaus. Trust me. She's still my boss, Klaus. Okay. So my question to you, though, is a little bit of a different angle, because you have to continue to learn.

There's a neuroplasticity about you. And so how do you, what do you recommend to people in terms of their reading in terms of their interaction with other. I mean, you've done such a great job of this over your life. So impart some wisdom here. No, I think today with artificial intelligence, you can satisfy your curiosity much faster. So if I compare myself with five years ago or ten years ago,

I'm much more than sitting behind my desktop or my iPad and looking at issues, which I didn't understand in my life. Now I get some explained in a very convincing and reasonable way, and I find it fascinating. I learn about things I never would have thought of to become not a specialist, but just take, for example, the issue of retirement. I had to look at the financial issues. I did not know about any medical aspect of longevity, so I had to do a lot of research,

and I did it all via artificial intelligence. And I learned a lot. And that's a great satisfaction because you feel when you get older, you don't diminish your knowledge level, but you increase your knowledge level. And that's maybe also the hope for the future because artificial intelligence might provide us with the means to really individually and collectively to enter a new age of creativity. I would nearly call it a new renaissance. Yeah.

And listen, I mean, and that's our hope. And that's also all of that innovation will lead to great economic progress and hopefully economic abundance. But, you know, in my reading of your work, there's a clear moral thread. And I'm going to make a statement and either agree or disagree. But I feel like you're saying to us, progress must be inclusive. It must be ethical. It must be humane. And you've dedicated a lifetime to this sort of cooperation.

So the question, sir, is what worries you most about this global moment and the time? that we're living in. I think that we are losing a narrative which has guided humankind since its beginning. It's the narrative that you are here and you owe your existence also to prepare a better future. If you go back to the agricultural society, even to the beginnings, during the whole time of the industrial society, there was this drive to create a better world for the future. Today, with all the crises which we have, with the multitude of problems we are confronted with,

I think we have become much more egocentric on an individual and also on a national way that makes international cooperation so much more difficult, by the way. And I think we have to think about how we recreate this narrative. And here, I have to say I'm quite optimistic. I have created also what I call this global shapers community, a special foundation which has now over 10,000 young leaders in its community and in over 500 cities around the world. And every time I'm traveling and I meet those young leaders, I'm going out and I'm impressed.

We are today in a situation where we have to learn much more from the young. And I give you an example. If I have a problem, I'm with my technical devices. I'm not going anymore to a specialist. I go to my grandson. and he has a solution, let's say, real time. So my message is, let's believe into the future. But in order to believe into the future,

we have to keep in mind the collective. We are always part of a community. We are not alone. And if we want to prosper, we have to take into account that the other people around us prosper, I know it's a platitude and it's a commonplace to say, but there are many practical steps you can take in order to make this objective reality.

Yes, I agree. And so let's take this new generation, Klaus, that you and I are not a part of. Let's take the generation that has been born after the millennium turn. So the year 2000, these people are now 25. What's the message for these young people? It's when we look at the future of those young people, I always think of my grandson, which was of course born after 2000. And if I take the life expectancy and I take some assumptions which seem to be very valid,

He will still be alive when we end of the 22nd century. So a long time from now. So we have to create a future, keeping in mind how will actually this future look like? And here, of course, technology comes in again, Because what we are seeing now is this fourth revolution, or I call it the intelligent age, I think, and it's not only artificial intelligence, it's all the other dimensions. And I come back to my belief, it may be dreamier.

We have to make sure that as we used in a certain way, the Industrial Revolution, to bring billions of people out of poverty. That was the positive effect. Of course, there were negative effects. So we have to think, how can we use this technological revolution to create even an uplifting again for humankind? And here, the young people can play a big role, but we have to integrate them already now into this process.

You know, I think it beautifully stated, you know, I'm a fair, you know, I feel like global, Klaus, I feel like globalism has gotten a bad name. I feel like people have used the internet and they've used propaganda to hurt the cause of globalism. But when you step back and look at a globalizing society, we have lifted billions of people out of poverty. And we've also, So we've also helped to what you've dedicated your whole life to. We've helped to bring people together and to not dehumanize each other. And so when we're in each other's presence, we realize how much more we have in common with each other as opposed to what we have against each other from a tribal perspective.

And so I applaud me for doing that and the dedication that's bad with this cause throughout your life. So we're at the end of this podcast. So what my producer and I did is we took five words, Klaus, and I'm going to say the word, and then I would like you to come up with one or two sentences. It's sort of a raw shot test of your work. Okay, you're ready? Yes.

Okay. And so the first word, I'm going to say the word leadership, and you think of what? Leadership is stewardship, and stewardship for what? for nature and the other human beings. Okay. I say the word longevity. And what do you think of?

A reasonable conducting of your life. Peace. Say the word peace. To honor mutual respect. And to sit together and to find the common ground. Okay. This is your life's work here. The fourth word is three words. World Economic Forum. I say those three words. I say the wef. You say what? It's a necessity for the modern world to have a platform where all stakeholders of global society could meet. It's so true, Klaus, but you were the visionary for that. You were the one that got that in place.

over a half a century ago. Okay, this is the last word, and I'm going to give you the last word. It's actually two words. I say cloutch swab. You say what? I would say, hopefully,

um, you are bad as me, Mr. Krushner. It's, I would say it should be more than a legacy. It should be a, a compass

moral and maybe I'm not modest enough here, but it should be a moral and intellectual compass for the future. Well, listen, I put you on the spot there because that's how I see you. And the title of these two books, it's the Intelligent Age series, but the title of these two books

are thriving and leading in an intelligent age, longevity and retirement in an intelligent age. They're both written by Professor Klaus Schwab, who is the founder of the World Economic Forum and so many other things, and somebody I consider a friend. And I'm very grateful to you for the relationship that you and I have had over the years. And I've learned a lot from you and from the forum. And so thank you so much for joining us on Open Book here today. Thank you, Anthony. You were always also a whole model of a very engaged person in our activities.

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