Otherworld - Episode 101: Zozo Pt. 1

Episode Date: October 28, 2024

Chase considered himself an atheist from a young age, so when he and his cousin played with a Ouija board, it was all just fun and games until they found themselves communicating with a mysterious entity who called itself "Zozo." Check out our Merch Follow us on: Instagram, TikTok, Twitter For business inquiries contact: [e-mail] If you have experienced something paranormal or unexplained, email us your story at [e-mail] To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to Otherworld. I'm your host, Jack Wagner. This show receives thousands of emails from people who have experienced unexplainable things. Sometimes I can't help but notice common themes in those submissions. Probably the biggest pattern I've noticed is people having bad experiences with Ouija boards. That has come up a lot, and it's probably not surprising to anyone that this is the biggest pattern in the submissions. Also, in the course of making this show, I've talked to many different people with a range of beliefs and expertise, and pretty much everybody has told me that it's unwise to mess with these things if you don't know what you're doing. It's like the main thing that I've been told over and over again while making other world is to take these seriously.

And it's funny because I think so many people out there in the general public are dismissive of Ouija boards because they think it's a children's toy that's made. by Hasbro, which is partly true. Hasbro does currently make the Ouija board, but in reality, Ouija boards have existed long, long before they were ever sold in stores and were used by spiritualists to attempt to communicate with the dead throughout the 1800s. Some say their origins go back even further than that. And those origins are very strange. In fact, the name Ouija came from a medium asking the board what it would like to be called, and it spelled out Ouija. So, the board actually named itself. We have an entire Patreon episode diving into the history of Ouija boards if you would like to hear it.

But my point is, it's really not a children's toy, let alone a toy at all. The fact that it's sold in stores is pretty bizarre to me, no matter what you believe about it, let alone the fact that they are found in the game section of stores. It's very strange. Needless to say, we get a lot of Ouija emails, and this year I started noticing an even more specific theme within those emails. People began sending in stories that involved them communicating with something that identified itself as Zozo, Z-O-Z-O.

They spoke to this thing on the board, and then frightening things would start to happen in their own. life. When I saw the first couple emails come in about this, I googled that name Zozo, and I saw tons of very silly looking results, like lots of bad YouTube videos, clickbait type stuff, TikToks, poorly made graphics, there was even a movie made about it. It essentially looked like some kind of bad invention of the internet, like Slender Man or something like that. So I basically laughed and moved on, ignored those emails. There's plenty of shows out there in the world that cover this type of thing, but that's not really the type of thing we typically do on here. Then as

time went on, we started to get more, and some of them were really intense. I started talking to a couple of the people on the phone, and I realized that many of them didn't even know that this name was a well-known phenomena on the internet. People were sending a couple of the people. People were in these stories as unique puzzling experiences, and they didn't know that Zozo was a thing. That piqued my interest a little bit. And eventually, I looked into it a little bit more. And it seemed that even though the internet has kind of run wild with this and made it seem a little ridiculous, it does seem to be something that people genuinely experience.

They're using the Ouija board. They're talking to what they think is a spirit of a love. one or someone else, and then suddenly a different thing comes in and identifies itself by this name, and things usually take a very strange turn. I ended up speaking to quite a few people that have experienced this. All of their stories were very strange. I decided to focus on this story in particular. He was actually one of the first people we talked to, and he is named Chase. Chase identifies as an atheist. In fact, I'd say that's a defining feature of him. And for that reason, I think his experience with the paranormal was very surprising and conflicting for him. He was very shocked

to have gone through all of this and is even more surprised to be coming on a show like mine to talk about it. This is episode 101. The title is Zozo Part 1, and you're listening to Otherworld. This is Bobby? Look at it. At its core, the science, you can't argue. I'm sorry about all the science. Up in the sky. It's almost frustrating that it's happening.

I'm going to die. I'm going to die. It's limbs were just like wrong. Everybody moves back into the light, even if it takes them of it. My name is Chase Keller. I'm a born and raised in Texas. Dallas, Texas is where I'm from. I'm a father.

I've lived here my entire life. I'm the youngest of two kids. I have an older brother. He's three years older than me. We grew up really close. And I've grown up very close with my cousins right by my side all through my life. And I mean, honestly, I've never had any other experiences involving paranormal stuff really other than this story. I am an atheist. I was born and raised a Catholic, but I kind of decided when I was about 11 years old, I was kind of like, I'm not into this. It just wasn't for me.

I don't know why at that age, but it just didn't jive with me, I guess. So I was like, I'm done with that. And that's how I've been ever since. I've just not a believer in any of that kind of thing. So I've never believed in ghost or paranormal stuff of any kind until this happened. And then it's kind of just like I'm, I am heavily conflicted about it. Because it sounds crazy.

It sounds like a, like it sounds like a story you hear from a crazy person at a bar with, like, a drunk guy sitting across from you or something, you know. And I know how it sounds, and I'm just like, I want to tell people without sounding like a lunatic. So I always kind of preface it with, look, I'm just as much of a skeptic as anybody else would be of my own story. And that's why it's so ridiculous. It's like, I don't know what happened, but I know what I experienced. I know what I saw. I know what I was around.

And since there was people in my story that, you know, were there. witnessing certain things with me. It's like you have those people you can check in with and be like, am I crazy? Did that, you know, did that happen? And they'll confirm it for you. And now you're maybe both crazy. I don't know, you know.

I did have like kind of a experience prior to this. My grandpa had passed away around the time I was 12 or 13 or so. He had diabetes and he was in the hospital a lot towards the end of his life. I had just kind of started getting close to him towards the end of his life before he kind of got sick and stuff. Like, it was, you know, a whole big thing of he was going to teach me to play chess

and that kind of, you know, that kind of thing. I never got to learn with him. So losing him was always like this missed opportunity, I guess, of these times that I didn't get to experience. And they were kind of lost due to his untimely death. He was pretty young when he died. you know, in his 60s, it's considerably young. And I had like a dream where he kind of, you know,

visited me in the dream and gave me kind of like a grandfather speech of like, do your best in life and that kind of thing. I'm thinking in my head like, oh, well, your subconscious is a powerful thing. Things pop in my dreams all the time that I never find any significance to. It's my grandfather just passed. away. Obviously, it's on my mind. It's heavy on my mind. I didn't believe in the God thing. So when he passed away, there was this internal struggle of like, you want to believe inside that

there's this afterlife that somebody's going to. But it's like in my rational brain, I'm like, well, I don't know. I don't think I'm also kind of cool with it just being nothing. You know, it's kind of, it's the end. We live this life and that's it. So I think a lot of people probably struggle with that even as atheist. It's just like. you know, you want there to be something, but probably not. But really, that's the only other experience I've ever had that's, you know, made some kind of impact that meant something to me. A few years later, I was about 14, and I had, you know, kind of gotten past the death of my

grandfather in his passing, but it was still something that was in my mind as, you know, it takes a while to get over that kind of thing. So about the time I'm 14, my birth. brother was dating this girl who I became really good friends with. I had a couple of classes with her in high school. We became really good friends and stuff and she became friends with some of my family. And she's kind of the one who introduced the Ouija board to us. She was real into the spiritual kind of thing, crystals and all that stuff. So she talked about that kind of stuff a lot. And she had brought up the Ouija board to us, knowing that my brother and I

I had just kind of lost to a grandparent and whatever. And I think she wanted to help in some way. And one day she goes to Walmart with my aunt and my cousin, and they pick up a Ouija board. And they brought it home to me and my other cousin, who were just hanging out playing video games, and they kind of explained what it is. I honestly didn't have really any clue.

I don't know. I just didn't ever know anything about it. So it didn't really, they're just like, hey, look, it's a board that you put the little triangle thing. on and move it around and you talk to spirits or whatever. And I'm like, hey, you know, I'm an atheist. So I'm just as, you know, I'm an atheist because I'm like, yeah, cool, whatever. That sounds fun. Yeah, let's do that. And so we did. And we kind of set it up in the living room lit candles and turn the lights off and, you know, getting in the spooky mood, I guess. And we do a prayer led by

my brother's girlfriend at the time leading this ceremony, the open the thing we're doing, which all seems silly with the thing that comes from like the toy section of Walmart, to be perfectly honest. But yeah, we do this whole prayer to open the thing and we get in there and we, you know, it's just, it's like kind of your typical thing that you would expect from a Ouija board. It wasn't anything special. It was kind of, you know, oh, are there any spirits in here? and oh, it went to yes, oh, my God.

You know, and we're all, oh, that was so scary, whatever. And it was pretty uneventful the first time. It was, there wasn't really much going on. You know, we closed up the session, said the prayer, and just kind of ended the night, and everybody went home, and we were all good. And that was kind of the end of that, and it was just like something that happened.

And didn't really think much about it after that. A few weeks later, my cousin and I, we kind of spent all of our time together. He's about nine months older than me. We're like inseparable, you know, grew up like brothers, basically. And every day after school, we're hanging out. We're playing video games. One night, I invited him over. I'm like, hey, come stay in the night for the night.

Let's, why don't you come over? We'll play some video games. And I think I said, I think I told him to bring the Ouija board. I think I was the one that told him. I was like, hey, do you want to bring the Ouija board? Let's try that again. And he's like, yeah, sure. okay. And so he brings it over. And I think we'd probably play video games first. It was probably a second thought to us, you know, just kind of like, hey, we'll do this later tonight and scare the crap out of ourselves. And I think we probably hung out a little while. And then it just kind of came up, hey, you want to, you want to try the Ouija board? Let's do that thing. Okay, yeah, sure. And so we brought it out. And I think it was probably like 9 o'clock or so when we started, we didn't do a prayer or anything like that. In the first session, we just

kind of opened it up and we're like, hey, what's going on? You know, kind of casual about it. I guess tempting the spirits. And I don't even remember how the original conversation is really going. It's kind of standard. It was kind of like the first time. It was very uneventful. Like, you know, is there anybody in the room?

Yes. Well, how many is in the room? Oh, four. You know, whatever. You know, it's that kind of thing. So it was just kind of, we're going that way and we're laughing. We're having a good time. And at a certain point, I mean, it was all kind of.

It was like the first session. It was very relaxed. We're laughing. We're having a good time. And at a certain point, it just kind of took this turn. And it got, it became weird and uncomfortable for both me and my cousin. It started to get personal with my grandfather and things like that being brought up. I asked if one of the spirits was my grandfather there to, you know, watch over me or whatever it might have been. and it answers yes. And it makes me emotional when it answers yes, because it's still very fresh for me. It's only a couple of years off from that. And so I kind of react to it, I guess, in an uncharacteristic way of almost believing it right away,

you know, almost jumping right in. So I'm asking it questions. And yeah, at a certain point, I'm wanting to kind of test it because I'm, you know, ever the skisking. skeptic on this sort of thing. I knew I could ask you a question, if this thing posing as my

grandfather, I knew I could ask it a question that only my grandfather would be able to answer as a thing that only he and I would know. It's something my cousin wouldn't know. So, you know, there would be no cheating as far as that goes. So I asked him the question about, you know, what was the

thing he had promised me before he passed away, which was to teach me to play chess. And that was the one of the last conversations I had with him and one of the last conversations I had before he passed away. So it was a very personal thing to me and it's like I knew that if it would answer that properly, it could get it. And the question I asked it was, what was it you had promised me before you passed away? It starts moving and it goes, you know, it starts, it goes to the

sea and then it moves and it's age. You know, my hands are shaking at that point. and it spells out chess. I mean, at that point, I was convinced, almost, you know, like hook-line and sinker, it got me. And it's just, it was, it's so hard to, it's hard to rationalize in my brain because of, it goes against all of what I've believed up to that point and still even to this day do believe.

but in that moment this answer that was truly only held within my mind at that point comes out onto the board and I remember that being a shocking and surreal moment where it's

it shakes you to your core it's a reality shifting moment I guess it's one of those moments where you're just kind of realizing the things aren't like what you thought they were. And I guess we all have some of those moments in life, but this seemed like a specific one. So at this point, I'm having this conversation with the spirit of my grandfather. And it's kind of the generic questions that I guess you would want to know when you have a loved one pass away.

You know, how are things in the afterlife? You know, are you okay? I remember one of the questions that I asked. My grandfather lost his legs to diabetes. and he was always really bummed about it. And he made jokes. He was very high-spirited about it, but he was bummed about it because he was a little bit shorter after getting his prosthetic legs.

So he was real sad about that. So I remember one of the questions I asked him was if he got his legs back, if he was back to his all self. And, you know, the answer was yes, of course, which always made me happy, I guess. And just, I guess, that sense of humor, even the sense of humor

was almost there in the right way that it was really drawing me in my grandpa was a really funny guy so you know some of the jokes that were happening even on the board were just they kind of felt in character as far as what i would expect from him i was completely elated at the point at that point because it's like it's this it's not that you don't want there to be this afterlife or this heaven it's like you know that would be wonderful if that was a thing that I felt was a, you know, a thing that existed. So to have that feeling of like, oh, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I was wrong about this thing. And my grandfather is in this amazing place. It was this sense of elation because it was just total joy, this feeling of, I guess, comfort and safety almost.

It was like a, it was nice. And it gave me the feeling of, of, of safety. and until it didn't. The reactions it was giving to certain things were getting stranger, I guess. And one of the things that it started to kind of voice to us was I was wearing a hat. It had some religious symbols, a cross on it or something. It wanted me to take off this hat. And it was just, it was very strange because it was just like, I don't know why.

it's a hat like who cares like why do i need to take the hat off it just kept saying hat and i'm the only one wearing a hat and i think it said cross and it kept like the plaque the planchette things like it would come over to like where i was sitting on the board basically like just kind of sit on that spot of the board where i was sitting so it was like clearly pointing at me like it's it was this i don't know it was very strange you know just see at this point i'm talking to my grandpa i'm like why do you care about the cross so but it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's i'm talking to my grandpa i'm like why do you care about the cross. So, but it's, that's when I'm starting to get like a little, it just feels weird because it's just like, what is this? I don't understand, like, what are we getting at here? My, my grandfather was a

religious guy. I mean, it was very strange that it's, you know, he would be, say, I'll take that hat off, you know, with the cross. That's not, that's totally out of character for him. In fact, I think I probably wore that hat in front of him when he was still alive, you know? So it just doesn't, It doesn't really make sense that it would have even come up as a thing. The board's behaving really strangely at that point. Like, it's not really answering questions anymore. That's when I'm kind of suspicious. And I said to my cousin, I'm like, you know, I don't really think this.

I don't know if this is my grandfather, you know, or if it was, it's not anymore. And that's kind of when we asked, who is this? Who are we talking to really? and the board just it goes to Z, O, and then Z O, Z O, and it doesn't stop. It just keeps going. And it only stops when me and my cousin took our hands off of it. We just lifted our hands because we were like, what the, you know, what the hell is going on? It was really weird.

It wouldn't stop doing it. It was just constant Z, O, Z. And we were, we both looked at each other like, what is going on? This is really weird. And like, but we're not, we're not even super alarmed at that point. It's still kind of, you know, we're still kind of like in denial, I guess, about it a little bit. And I think we start asking more questions because we're like, what's Z, oh, Z, you know, what is that? Like, what are you talking about?

You know, we're not thinking anything of that response at any point. And it starts to reply, the only reply it will give is maze. it starts saying maize over and over. And it was very confusing, very strange. And every question we asked, maze, maze. And we're like, why, what is maze? I've kind of found out a little bit about it. Some people said that apparently maze is something that a Ouija board responds.

If you're in a room full of electronics, we were in the computer room of my house. There was a computer, there was like three computers in that room. So I don't know. It just started doing that. And I've always thought it was very strange, like maze. Like it's confused or something. thing by the technology, I guess. I'm not, maybe the electromagnetic, whatever in the air, who knows, but that's what it started doing, maze over and over, and it was very strange.

Now it's just repeating the same word over and over, and it was already doing the ZO-ZO thing, so we're just like, you know, this is really weird, and it's not fun anymore at that point, so we're just like, you know what, it's creepy, it's kind of freaking us out, we're not having fun anymore, let's, we're going to close it out. We, you know, fold it up, put it in the box and at that moment, both of our cell phones that have been kind of sitting over to the side the whole time start ringing off the hook. I mean, you know, vibrating. It's the old flip phones. They're vibrating off the edge of the shelf because it's text message after text message after text. And we're just, you know, oh my God, what the hell? And so we both look and we're

checking our phone and it's text messages and calls, all these mistexed and calls from my brother's girlfriend and my cousin's older sister who had been part of the original Ouija session. So they're calling us and all their text messages are, are you guys doing the Ouija board? Stop doing it right now. That's the messages. It's, hey, you need to answer the foot. It's that kind of stuff like this really kind of frantic, these frantic messages are like, if you guys are doing the Ouija board, you need to stop now. So it's like when you're in a plane and you land and you turn off airplane mode and all your messages. come in at the same exact time.

But it's me and my cousin, and we just got done talking to a creepy, whatever that was. I imagine they went home and saw that the Ouija board wasn't, you know, in its spot on the shelf there. And my brother's girlfriend at the time being so serious and into the spiritual stuff, I think she just really didn't want us to get into anything that we didn't really understand on that level. because neither one of us was into that kind of thing. We didn't know what we were doing. And I think she just was concerned for our safety on that. So we get all these messages and we call and we tell them, well, yeah, we were playing with the Ouija board.

What's the big deal? And they're like, stop immediately. Don't touch it. You know, that kind of thing, big sister attitude. And so we're like, okay, sure. And we just finished. We're done with it. They're like, was anything weird happened?

We kind of explained to them like what had happened. and they were like, that's very weird, you know, don't do that again. And we're like, okay, whatever. Following those events, we were pretty spooked by it. Obviously, that scared us because we're just like, that's very strange. It's very abnormal. You know, why would our phones both at the exact same time malfunction? So it obviously scared the crap out of us.

We were both terrified and we didn't want to touch the Ouija board for a good long while. And I don't think we did for a few months. It was at least a while before we did. anything like that. I think the event was so intense for both of us. It scared my cousin's like super. I mean, I told y'all he didn't want to talk to you guys because he specifically was like he did not want to relive the events. That's what he told me. I was like, hey, would you be entry? He's like, no, I don't, I have no interest in talking about that at all. He doesn't want to talk of me about it very much. Like, he doesn't like bringing it up. So it really, it impacted him very, very deeply, I think. And I'm surprised he agreed to do it ever again even after that second time.

So several months go by and it, of course, comes popping up again with, I think we were telling the story to my friend, my best friend at the time, Corey. We brought it up to him. I'm telling him the story. He's a little bit of a religious guy. So he kind of was pretty scared by. I think I was trying to scare him probably is what the idea was. So I think I was telling him to scare the crap out of him.

And he was like, you know, whatever, dude, you're just trying to. mess with. I'm like, no, man, I'm serious. This is all real. And he's, no, whatever, dude. I think the idea was like, well, we'll just prove it to you. Let's get the Ouija board, man. We're going to make you do it. And you'll, you'll see for yourself. So we brought it up to my bedroom at this time. We just had it on a table in between all of us. It was the middle of the day on, I think it was like a week day. It was like a Thursday or something real weird. So it was like, Yeah, middle of the day, bright, day outside, sunny. We gather around.

It's me, my cousin from the original event, and then my best friend that lives down the street. We started up kind of the same way as before. We're just kind of going through the routine at this point. So at the beginning, as we open up, we're getting different names from different spirits and that kind of thing. We're having these nice conversations. And one specifically that I remember is Tori.

So as we're talking to Tori, we get the name from her and she, we're asking all about her, like, you know, hey, where are you from? And she was, you know, from around this area, of course. Hey, what, you know, how long have you been dead? I don't know if that's a question you're supposed to ask ghosts, but we did anyway. And I want to say it was like in the early 1920s or something like that is what I remember, like 1923. She says she's a mother. She's married. She had a husband that died before. she did. I think we asked her like, you know, what's your intention? Like, why are, what are you doing? What are your intentions here? What's your purpose? And she says, she's a protector. She wants to protect and help people. And I don't have a response to that. But we just kind of continue the conversation. And it's just, uh, again, like in the first experience that I, I had, it's the same thing. It's I'm, I'm feeling good. It's, you know, happy feelings and all that stuff. And it just kind of, Once again, there's this weird turn where the board is behaving strangely. You know, the answers are not clear or, you know, we're doing weird circles and shapes.

And so it just starts to take kind of a similar turn to the first time where we're not getting anything clear. And so I think we asked it at that point who was controlling the board because it was clear that it wasn't whatever we were talking to before. So we just said, hey, what's controlling the board right now? And it started doing the ZO-ZO thing again. And that just keeps coming up. Over and over the ZO-ZO comes up. And anytime we're asking about what it is, that's its response. My friend that I invited over the skeptical one that had nothing to do with this in the first place,

he was, I mean, he was terrified at that point. He was like fully invested and it's pulling him around. He's feeling it too, and he's just, oh, my God, this is, he's seeing that we weren't lying to him, that we were being honest, and now it's doing the thing that we had told him about before. So now he's, like, really freaking out. He's like, oh, my God. And he wants to stop at that point, but I'm like, I guess I'm egging it on. I'm probably the instigator here.

I think I probably just wanted to keep pushing forward and see what would happen, I guess. And so I start asking it questions, whatever this thing is. I'm like, you know what? That's the new strategy. Instead of closing the board, let's figure out what this is. So we started asking it questions. Is your name ZO, ZO, or is your name ZO? And it starts doing ZO, ZO, ZO again.

And so, okay, is it ZOZO? It goes to yes immediately. And we're like, oh, okay, so Zo is this thing that we're talking to. And so we're just kind of asking it, what do you want? You know, what do you hear for? Why do you keep interrupting in our Ouija board sessions, I guess? And I'm the one asking the questions through most of this. So when I asked that question, I said, what do you want?

It says you. And as you can imagine, that's pretty terrifying. I'm like, what do you want from me? You know, what can I do for you? And it says, die. I'm like, well, I'm not, I don't want to do that. Why do you want me to die? And it doesn't, it just starts doing weird patterns, I guess, at that point.

It never gave me a answer on its reasoning. The next question was, where, where are you in the room? You know, use the board to show us. And it just goes straight over to me. And like, just kind of sitting right in front of me on my part of the board. And so I asked, are you, are you next to me? And it says, no. And I said, are you behind me?

It says, yeah. And I'm like, okay. So I think it's the skeptic in me at this point that just wants to keep testing it. Because I'm like, God, please find some hole in this to make it not true. I think is my thinking at this point. And I think my friend is still, he thinks maybe I'm messing with them at this point. I don't know because it seems so overdramatic this die. So I think he's skeptical at that point.

And I think I mentioned earlier. I have a big family, and we all kind of grew up very close to each other. And my cousin and I share an uncle who is like eight years older than us, kind of an older brother figure, almost less than an uncle. And he would send group text out to me and my cousin that was with us and some of our other cousins. He sent us a message around the time we're doing the Ouija board.

Notice that this time the Ouija board doesn't block any of our messages, interesting to say. but we get this message both me and my cousin. Both our phones ding at the same time. So we just look at the screen to see who the message is from. And we see, oh, it's from our uncle. So I'm like, hey, hey, hey, wait, don't open your phone. Hold on.

Let's try something. And I say, you get up and go over to that side of the room. Go over to the corner and go stand over there. I'm not going to open my phone. You open your phone when I tell you to. And then we're going to ask this thing to read the message. on the screen and spell it on the board for us. Let's see what happens.

And so my cousin gets up and he goes over to the corner and he takes out his phone and I'm like, all right, don't open it yet. I ask the question, I say, whenever he opens the phone and you read us the message and it says yes, responds yes. So we're like, okay, all right, I tell him, open the phone. He opens it. He just holds it open like this. And he just holds the phone.

He reads it. He doesn't read it to us. I tell him, just leave it open. Just hold it open like that. He leaves it. And we wait for a minute. And the planchette starts moving. And it starts spelling it out.

It goes H-E-Y-B-I-T-C-H. Hey, bitch. And my cousin at that point screams. He says, oh, my God, holy shit. And we're like, what? He's like, that's what the message says. And we, I mean, that's another, that's like the, that's like the, you know, pulling your hands off the thing at that point because you're like, oh my God, what? And I mean, we're all screaming.

We're all freaking out. We're like, holy shit, this is real. When you see a Ouija board spelling out, hey bitch, it sounds very funny. That's a hilarious thing for a Ouija board to say to somebody. I mean, if you were greeting a Ouija board in the spirit said to you, hey, bitch, that would be. very funny and you'd probably laugh and think it was a great time. But when it's something like this where it's reading a message that nobody can see and you would have no idea what it says, I mean, it was a reality shifting event for all of us. And I think it genuinely just terrified us

to no end because it was the clarification that ghosts are real basically or spirits are real. And it was also the fact that this thing that was reading it to us had just told me it wanted me to die. So it was like, it was, I think it was just like a culmination of all these things kind of falling together. It was like, oh my, you know, these, these realizations, all kind of happening at once of, oh, this is real. Oh, it wants me to die. The fear involved in all of it was genuine and and very, very, very intense. And it was long lasting. It affected me for a long time. And it's kind of how the story progresses is the growing of that fear, I think. So at that point, like at the end, we're, you know,

we're terrified after this phone thing happens. I mean, we immediately, you know, we shut the board. We're like, screw this. We're done with that. Let's get rid of that, you know. Put the board away. We get rid of it because we're so scared. And I think we kind of just, we all talk to each other.

I think we went outside because we were just like, let's get out of the room. I don't want to be in this room anymore. Let's go out. So we went outside. and kind of did, you know, like a debriefing thing, I guess. That's kind of that moment where, like I had already said, it's the moment of realization, but it's the moment we all kind of were able to address it with each other

and kind of confirm the feeling that we were all having. Because, you know, you feel it, but somebody might have felt it different or experienced something totally different from you. I'm like, look, there's no way that could have, like, that was real, right? It's like, it's the pinch me moment. It's the pinch me moment of like, please wake me up. Somebody wake me up right now because there's no way this is real. All right, we have to take a quick break, and we'll be right back with the rest of the story.

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and it's a powerful reminder that whatever you're going through right now, you don't have to navigate it alone. We all have those nights where we're lying awake, staring at the ceiling, feeling like we have to figure out every answer by ourselves, but no journey should be solo. Having someone with you to listen and provide unbiased support

can change everything. If you've been feeling overwhelmed or just stuck lately, therapy can be that space to check in with yourself. BetterHelp makes getting started easy. They use a short questionnaire to match you with one of their 30,000 plus

licensed therapists, and you could switch therapists at any time if it isn't the right fit. You don't have to do this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash otherworld. That's better help.com

slash otherworld. My immediate thought is, well, if I tell anybody else they're going to think I'm crazy, you know, like the only people I can talk to you about this is going to be the two people that were in the room with me. And I think that's kind of what stokes the fear involved kind of going forward is just kind of, it's like a feeling of isolation.

Because because of the stigma involved in paranormal stuff, It's like, you know, people think you're a crazy person when you start seeing a ghost or you start thinking you're seeing stuff or talking to spirits or whatever. So, yeah, I mean, following that, it's a surreal experience. So it was kind of this life-altering thing

where, look, I mean, the experience is something that's kind of questioning my whole view of life, you know. So it became this thing, this all-consuming thought in my head where it's like I'm battling two different arguments of myself. It's like, you know, there's no way that was real.

But then I'm having this other argument that's like, well, look, but rationally I was there and I saw it happen. You know, it's like I'm trying to rationalize two separate arguments that are totally indifferent camps from each other. It became all consuming in the way that I genuinely thought about this every day. It was like me waiting for something to happen, I guess. And it's like, I think we at that point kind of figured, we're not going to do the Ouija board again.

I don't remember ever doing it again. And I think I've advised people just to stay away from it ever since. It was such a defining moment for me at that point. And I still think about it. This next thing that happened really horrified me more than any of the other things, honestly. I'm a big night owl. And I always have been. So one of these nights where I'm just staying up late watching TV or whatever it is I'm doing,

I think I went downstairs in my house to go get a snack, you know, midnight snack or whatever. And I go into the pantry and the way the kitchen is kind of set up, it's open the pantry door and it's kind of blocking the view of the stairway, which is where I'd just come down from. So it's blocking that view when you open up the door and you're looking in. So I'm looking in there. I'm getting my snacks, whatever I'm grabbing. I just, I close the pantry door. and there's a thing eight inches from my face.

I'm a pretty tall guy. I'm about six foot one. I see this thing standing in front of me and I judge it to be about six, seven, six, nine. It's tall and skinny. It's like a man's shape without any features. There's these big red eyes, like blood red eyes. Brighter than blood red, was absolutely, I mean, it was, it's the kind of thing that's burnt into my mind. The figure itself

is this black void almost of like non-being. It's like a black hole almost. And so to see these like bright red eyes kind of sitting in the face of this thing was, I mean, that's where your eye, that's where I immediately looked. It's just it went straight up there because it was, it caught your eye immediately and it was, it felt consuming. It's hard to even find a word that kind of emotes what I, what I think about them. Consuming feels like the word because it's like I was drawn to looking at the eyes. That's what sticks the most in my head. Is that in its closeness to me, I guess? It was inches away from me from where I was standing, basically. That's how close the pantry is. So it's basically when I closed the door, it's standing.

If there was a person standing next to you staring at your face like this thing was, because that's what it's doing. It's staring at me at my face. It would have been uncomfortable. Like if you're in public and somebody's doing that, it would have been close enough that you would have been like, dude, can you, you know, can you back up a little bit? It was that kind of level of closeness to where you're like,

it would have been in polite with a person. So it was terrifying in the way that it was like, it's right there. the second I, you know, move the door. It's, there it is. And, I mean, it's towering over me. Like I said, it's got about eight inches on me at least. So it's just been kind of standing, just looking down on me. It just doesn't move.

There's no movement at all. It's just kind of standing with its, I don't really know that it had arms necessarily, but it just looked kind of like a person standing there with their arms by their side. And just kind of looking down it. me. It disappeared about as quickly as it was there. It's kind of I looked at it, I turned, I saw it, I looked at its eyes, and then it kind of like poof, just like the smoky visage of it just kind of disappeared and just kind of faded, like a cloud of mist would basically. This was the scariest experience for me, almost probably of this whole event.

It was one of these scarier time because that was probably the closest that I think it was to me. It terrified me in such a way. It triggered my fight or flight almost immediately. And look, I don't know how to fight ghosts. So I went straight to flight mode. And I ran back upstairs and ran into my room and I think probably hit under my covers like a baby. It was genuine. It was so, I mean, I didn't go downstairs.

the rest of the night. I was like, I'm not going down there. I don't even know if I left my room the rest of the night. I think I just locked myself in and just stayed there for the night and probably went to sleep soon after that or tried to. It started to kind of show itself in random ways. That's kind of what started. And it was pretty few and far between. It wasn't all that often. It was kind of just like every month or two, like something weird would come up where I'm like, that doesn't, you know, that doesn't make any sense. Or I would just plain see something. So the next thing that I saw, again, was in the kitchen. But this was in the middle of the day. So it was a little strange. And it was kind of a similar situation. I was in the kitchen. I was just getting a cup of water. I'm at the cooler and I'm kind of bent over and getting a cup of water filled up.

And as I'm just standing there, I see something moving in the corner of my eye. And over to my right side, there's a, it's like a bar. and so I saw something moving like as if something was ducking behind the bar and then getting up from behind and so I see that movement happen out of the corner of my eye and I kind of turn and as I'm turning I see this shadow figure

I don't see the eyes this time but I see the shadow figure it's the same thing and it ducks back behind the counter the second I start to turn like as I'm turning it's just gone and I mean I stopped what I was doing and walked around to go see there's nobody there. I mean, it wasn't like as bad as the other one, but it was still just like, what the hell was

that? You know? So it was alarming. And that was just like, at that point, I kind of knew what it was because I had seen the other thing and the Ouija board and all that stuff. So it's like I kind of had an idea. It felt like over time, it was getting weaker and weaker. I think it just, it felt like it felt like it was being less.

Like, it's like the, without me using the Ouija board, it's like it couldn't latch on, I guess. But it was, it kept trying. It was like it was trying to scare me. And I had done research online, kind of looking into it myself. I found somewhere that it just kind of said that it feeds on your fear. That these things tend to feed on your fear of them. and so to combat them, you are supposed to not fear them anymore and show them your lack of fear, I guess. And, you know, it seems silly.

It seems kind of simple and basic, but it's like, you know, I was willing to do it because I'm willing to try anything because I'd like this to quit it. So I tried, you know, I just started to kind of, anytime something would come up, I would like say. out loud, hey, look, I'm not scared of you. I'm not afraid anymore. You know, like, but not a tough guy act for a ghost. So I was kind of doing that thing. And I kept, things kept happening. It's not like it stopped right away. It's just like, I mean, it was happening regularly enough that it was bothering me. Once a month doesn't seem like a lot. But it's like, it was happening often enough that I was concerned about it. So I mean, at this point towards

the end of all this happening. I mean, this had been going on for two, almost three years at this point. I mean, come on, I would think I was about to be 17 or so. So, I mean, it was going on quite a long time and it was wearing on me. Mentally, just like I said,

it's one of those things. You feel like a crazy person. You feel like you can't talk to people about it. I didn't want to talk to my parents about it. I thought they'd think I was crazy or whatever. and it was very alienating. It just felt very isolating. It was like, like I said,

the only people I could talk to was the people that experienced it, but they weren't getting all the experiences I was getting. They weren't seeing things that I was, you know, I was telling them, I'm seeing like these things, and they would be like, I haven't seen anything.

I don't know anything about that. So it just, it became so isolating because even though I had these people I could talk to it about, they weren't getting all the same. stuff I was getting. So I was just, I felt alone in the whole battle. And you never want to be alone and in mental anguish, you know? So at some point during all of these events, during these visions and things I'm seeing, I had this dream. And it was a dream where I'm in a void, this kind

of endless nothing that's all around me. And there's a woman there. that's, you know, she's there. It's like she's waiting for me, and I said, who are you? And she said she was Tori. She's that she's the woman that I talked to on the Ouija board when I spoke with Zozo the second time. I remember she's wearing like, kind of like a drab colored dress, like pretty monotone, like brownish, grayish-looking dress, late 1800 style.

Very, you know, no colors of any kind, really. and she had like a blonde hair. I think she was 28. And she said that she was there to give me protection, to help me through this, that she wanted to make sure that I was going to make it through. I guess she was kind of reinforcing that idea of not feeling the fear, not allowing this entity to feel like feed on my energy, on my fear.

That was reassuring at the time because it's like Even though it's a dream, it felt real And it seems like it worked Waking up I mean waking up from a dream like that is always weird Because it's like it's The word keeps coming back It's that surreal feeling of like

What was that? It was kind of a Disbelief I guess Of like You know is my mind just like Trying to tell me something Or is that something real? That's coming to send me a message.

You know, the whole thing was so confusing. The whole event was so confusing because it was all happening just kind of randomly. And so it was very hard to piece it all together. It's hard to like grasp those feelings. But it was like this, I felt safer, I guess, and I felt more reassured. Like I had already said from in the dream,

it's just like the immediate reassurance of like, oh, there's like this thing on the other side that's fighting on my behalf or, you know, whatever, however you want to look at it. I guess that's kind of how I started to see it as like, oh, there's this, there's a, spirit or an energy on the other side that's, you know, on my side. After that, it kind of, everything kind of died down and it really never, it didn't come back. I had just stopped letting in the fear, just kind of brushing off anything that happened. So it just kind of passed into my memory and just kind of became a thing that I thought about.

And, you know, honestly, like, as the years went on, I started to doubt more and more of it to myself. Like, it was more and more like I, in my head, I'm like, oh, you know, I probably was imagining that, you know, it was that kind of, kind of me trying to make it make sense in my head to, you know, make excuses, I guess. And it was, yeah, it was probably just, I didn't sleep enough. I was probably just hallucinate, you know, whatever it was. So I just, I tried to make all these excuses for a lot of years kind of following that as I got older. And the further away I got away from it, I think is just kind of, you know, I didn't want to think I was crazy. You know what I mean? So I was like, I got to come up with some reason for why I'm not crazy.

So I guess that was my thinking behind it. I went to college. moved on with my life. So basically, I had made a friend, James, uh, that I've, at college, that I hung out with the lot. And one time he invited me out. He was like, hey, let's go out. We're going to go to this hookabar. I'm like, sure, man, let's go. So we had out there. We get there and, uh, he's friends with some of the waitresses and stuff. He knows some of the staff and whatever. And, um, so we're hanging out and we're having our good time and whatever. And the end of the night, they, uh, some of the waitresses are like, hey, do you guys, y'all want to come back.

We're going to go have a party at our house. Like, do you all want to come back? And we're like, sure, let's go. So we head back over there and we're, you know, doing the party thing, hanging out, drinking all that stuff. And me and my friend James are, you know, we're sitting in the living room and we're talking to the two girls that live there. They're the ones that live in this house. And one of them, her name was Kiki. And as I'm kind of talking to meet this Kiki person for the first time, we're just, you know, swapping.

stories and whatever and she gets into some kind of spooky stories telling a little bit of scary stuff like that and I'm keeping my spooky stuff to myself. I'm not wanting to get into it. But she brings up this story. She says, well, I have this personal experience. She tells me, you know, that she was going on some like a mission trip of some kind in New Orleans, I think. And so the night before the trip, she's getting ready and she's going to sleep on the couch, I think. And when she goes to lay down, she said she saw like the reflection of the TV. And the reflection of the TV was this figure standing behind her, like in the kitchen behind her back. But she says when she got a look at it, it was a black, shapeless thing that was kind of smoky looking, tall.

and with these bright red eyes. And she described it with having like these long finger claws. She describes that to me, this tall smoky black figure with red eyes that's really big and slender. I was shaking at that point because, I mean, she just described what I saw. You know,

it's almost almost down to the exact detail. It was so close that I was like, it scared me. And I was frozen at that point and I just kept listening. But so as she's telling me all these things, I mean, it's just building up more and more in my mind of like, oh my God, holy crap, holy crap. You know, it's all coming back now. And I'm just like, please don't, I don't want this to be a thing again being brought back into my life. And she says, she tells me finally that she knows the name of this thing.

And I'm like, okay, you know, tell me what's. the name is and she says oh its name is Zozo I mean my eyes bust out of my head I'm sure because I mean I was in complete shock at that point that was that was like the

that was my limit of being able to stretch my disbelief I guess of I there was no more excuses I could make in my mind at that point at least to me and Yeah, so she reveals it's Zozo, and it's been described the same way that I saw it.

It all just matched up so much. It's like the stars aligned and the worst kind of way, and it all became real again. It was all real again. That's kind of what it became because I had convinced myself it wasn't. And then it came crashing back down on me, I guess. after she finished her story, I was like, you're not going to believe this.

I've got to tell you a story. And so I think we like went into another room at that point because it was getting intense at that point. And I'm like, look, I want to talk to you. This is like really freaking me out. So I think we like stepped into another room and had like a conversation about it. And she was in shock just the same as me.

Just kind of like, oh my God. Like that's insane. I mean, when she had said Zoso to me, I said, it was like ZO, ZO, like, Zo, like, Zo? And just like, yeah. Like, no, there's no way. We kind of lost touch after a while. Like, she hung around a little bit and then eventually kind of she moved away.

And I honestly, I was never close enough to her that I was like familiar with her last name. I probably knew it at the time, but it just kind of faded in my memory after a while. And it was just, you know, one of those people in your life. They were there. And then they're gone. And you don't really think much about them. that. With having this kind of experience, I think it's this thing that's kind of, it changes your perspective on a lot of things. But when it challenges your beliefs in such a way that it did

with me, it's like the battle, the internal battle that I have between this thing that happened to me and the system of belief that I have is just those things are battling constantly in me. ever since then. And it's because, you know, every time this subject comes up, it's something I think about more and more because it's just, you know, it kind of fades in my mind after a while and it'll come back in some way. Something reminds me of it. And then I have to kind of confront this thing again where,

where I have to recognize this happened and face that with, you know, my inner self, I guess. And that's, I don't know, I think that's hard to, it's a hard battle to have. challenging that within yourself just because it goes against everything I believe. That's the genuine, that's the best way I can put it. It's like, I don't believe in ghosts, you know. I don't believe in spirits.

I don't believe in any of that stuff. But here I am looking at it and here I am talking to it. And here I am having an experience that's shared with a person I've never met in my entire life, having is very similar. It's like those things are so hard to deny that it makes you question your reality. It makes you start to wonder, what did I get wrong? What am I missing here? It's been a life-changing thing in that it's transformative for me. And I think everybody around me that's been affected by it in some way. All right. Thank you so much to Chase for sharing his story. I got to be honest, I went into this zozo situation with a very skeptical attitude. You could even say a very

cynical attitude. But speaking to Chase made me a little more open-minded to this whole thing, partly because him and his cousins experienced this without any prior knowledge that this was a common phenomenon, and because whatever they were talking to on the board was able to answer questions that they didn't even know the answer to. You know, a lot of people think that the Ouija board is just you moving the planchette on your own, whether it's consciously or unconsciously. But situations like that where the board is able to answer questions in a way that defies explanation, it's hard to completely write this off as unconscious movements at a certain point. I think Chase would have loved to completely put this behind him.

and move on with his life, and he probably would have if he didn't end up meeting this waitress who had experienced almost exactly the same thing. Unfortunately, Chase told me that this happened a very long time ago. He's completely lost track of this person and really only knew her by her nickname, which was Kiki at the time. He doesn't even know her real name. And basically getting a hold of her wouldn't be possible.

But after some time and effort, we were able to track her down and it turns out she remembers that night just as clearly as Chase you'll be hearing from her in the next episode if you're interested in learning more

about the history of Ouija boards I spoke to historian and owner of the largest planchette collection in America probably the world Brandon Hodge that's available on Patreon

this has been Zozo part one and you've been listening to Otherworld Otherworld is executive produced and hosted by myself, Jack Wagner. Our theme song is by Cobra Man. The soundtrack of this episode is by Juice Jackal. This episode was edited and engineered by Theo Schaefer.

Our artwork is by Coldestack Studios. Nikki Kate Delgado is our associate producer, production help by Haley Pearson. Please show us your support by subscribing, leaving a five-star review, and telling your friends about Otherworld. If you want to hear bonus episodes, you can become a patron at patreon.com slash Otherworld. Our social media is at Otherworld Pod. Thank you to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Jenna Weiss-Berman, Leah Reese Dennis, Rob Morandi, Eric Donnelly, Matt Casey, Morricerun, Josephina Francis, and Hillary Schuff. Follow and listen to Otherworld now for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.

And finally, if you or somebody you know has experienced something paranormal, supernatural, or unexplained, you could send us your story at Stories at Otherworldpod.com.