Otherworld - Episode 15: Honeymoon Phase

Episode Date: January 2, 2023

When Holden and Hillary began dating, her religious family had very strict rules for the courtship. As a result, they didn't sleep in the same room until after they got married. When they finally spend those very first nights together, Hillary starts to exhibit creepy behavior while asleep. Things escalate from there, as the newlyweds start to notice paranormal activity in their home.  Subscribe to Otherworld on Patreon for exclusive content and bonus interviews Check out our Merch Follow us on: Instagram, TikTok, Twitter  If you have experienced something paranormal or unexplained, email us your full story at [e-mail] To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to Otherworld. I'm your host, Jack Wagner. Even though the show is about firsthand paranormal encounters that I consider to be credible, I'd say a lot of the time, most of the smaller paranormal stories I hear usually can be chalked up to somebody being scared or paranoid in imagining things. The imagination is very powerful. I'm talking about people that just think they heard a bump in the night. they think they saw something out of the corner of their eye, that type of stuff. It happens to me, it happens to all of us. And honestly, you'd be surprised how many people have emailed me saying that they think listening to the podcast might have caused something to happen to them.

Like after they turned off Otherworld, they thought they heard something or they thought they saw something out of the corner of their eye. I get those emails a lot. And whenever I get one, I tell them, you guys have nothing. to worry about, I mean, I'm the one that records this show and nothing's happening to me. So if you ever find yourself wondering about that, I'd say you're safe. But anyway, when I first came across the story for today's episode, I thought it might be exactly what I've just been talking about, a case of people being a little paranoid and

basically scaring themselves. The guy who emailed me said that his wife was raised very religious. In fact, she was so religious that they didn't share a bed until after they were married. And I'm not making some kind of innuendo. I mean, literally, they did not sleep in the same room or bed until after they got married. Never. And during those first nights they spent together, strange things started to happen. Now, I'm not entirely sure what exactly happened with these two.

The situation took some unexpected twists and turns, but I think it's a really interesting story and a really unique perspective. I think you're all going to really enjoy it. This is episode 15. The title is honeymoon phase, and you're listening to Otherworld. Hello? Bobby? Yes, it is.

You so warm? Yeah, let us know when you're ready. Okay, okay. My son of Samo in the Pacific Island It's pretty superstitious This is a story about My name is Holden

34 Live in Kansas This story kind of starts Along the timeline When I met my wife She had just moved back from

Potava Italy She had been living over there Doing missions work for six months And I had been living in the Kansas City area. I moved back and my family went to her family's church. So I kind of knew of her, but didn't really know her, didn't know the family super well. So she has a huge family. She's got seven brothers and sisters.

Ants and uncles have a lot of kids, just like a really big family set up. And they're all kind of geared around ministry. The whole family is her dad at the time that I met her had been a pastor for like 25 years at a small town church. Her grandpa's a pastor, her uncle's a pastor. It's like, it's not the family business, but it's pretty much as close as you can get to it. My parents are pretty devout. So I grew up in church and around church, but definitely was not as intense in my practicing as them. So certainly there was some adjustments in the dating as far as what my dating would have been like before and dating with her. But yeah, her dad, he passed her forever.

He's still a pastor now. Knows everybody. Like, if you go in that town, if you talk to anybody that's been in that town or around it, they know him. Like, he's a well-known figure in the area. So, and in high school, I was not, like, the worst, but I was definitely kind of a knucklehead. And that was kind of known throughout.

So her dad was maybe under. easy with me at first at best. It took a while to win them over, I would say. They'd get them comfortable with that. But when I moved back and she moved back kind of around the same time, we both started spending some time together, hanging out. It was not a traditional dating set up at first. It was almost like a courtship. I don't know if I would call it that, but definitely the parents had input as to time spent together and, you know, some supervision at the start. A lot of hoops to jump through to, you know, keep dad happy. So we dated for six months to a year, got engaged. It was really fast, but kind of, you know, followed the rulebook, kept everything

clear. And towards the end of that, we bought a house. I moved into that house. She didn't move there. I spent my time there, but she did not come there very often. She'd come hang out from time to time, but it was pretty, it's pretty much just me there for the first six months until after we got married. After the wedding, we didn't go on the honeymoon. I think we had a day or so at the house before we actually left town. So that would be the first night that like we stayed together on a house, period. Like we'd never slept in a room together, nothing. So we were going in like just cold turkey. No idea what to expect. Like no frame of reference for like, you know, habits, routines, any of that. So this would be like the first intro. And it was a

pretty weird first intro all and all. Okay. Well, I'm Hillary. I, um, Holden's wife. And I guess just for for a reference, I grew up, I'm a pastor's kid, so I was very aware growing up of what in the church you would call like the spiritual realm, I guess, of things that are outside of our view as people but that are happening all around us with, you know, angels, demons, whatever, you know, you want to call it, but I was very aware of that growing up. I never really experienced anything with that personally, but I'd always heard about it. And I was very, you know, conscious of that within church and things like that. So that's kind of, you know, my background growing up. And so when Holden and I got married because of how I grew up, we had never, you know, we didn't live together before we got

married. We hadn't done any of that. So when we got married and we moved in together, you know, within probably the first week of us being married, You know, we had just moved into this, our first little house together, and we were sleeping, and I had this very vivid dream that I was being chased on, well, I was running on railroad tracks, and there was a train not far behind me, and I was running for my life, and then all of a sudden, I wake up, and in real life, I wake up, and I am throwing myself across our bedroom on, to the floor. And I remember hitting the floor and I became conscious at that point. And I, my poor husband, who I had just married, was looking over the bed at me and just staring at me

and just feeling, who are you? Like, who did I just marry? He looked terrified and my knees were all bloody. I had scraped them up on our wood floors and I, I had, had no idea what happened. I had never had dreams before where I had acted out within the dream or had sleep paralysis or anything like that. I'd had my first share of nightmares, but nothing where I had jumped out of the bed or slept walked even or was sleepwalking.

So it was very weird. And Holden was definitely freaked out by me doing that. I woke up and my wife had made like a really violent movement in bed and it was enough that it like jolted me awake just in time to look up and see her like lunging out of the bed like I didn't see her standing but I saw her foot push off and just like it wasn't like oh I'm jumping it was like full force so her body went full airborne I saw her body in the air and saw her impact like the edge of the wall it was a pretty small room So it doesn't take a lot to hit the wall, but probably five feet that she flew in the air and then like hit mid wall and dropped.

And she was really didn't know what happened at first. And truthfully, I was kind of like afraid to go to the edge of the bed and check on her at first. But eventually I went and she was okay. I think she bruised her knees a little bit. But really didn't know what happened. She just said she had a dream that she was on train tracks. and thought she was going to get hit and was diving away. But my wife kind of dismissed it and said,

well, I had a bad dream. I thought I was going to get hit by a train. And she was pretty disoriented. So I kind of pushed it aside. And side note, my wife would like to clarify that she was not possessed or has never been possessed. But it was just a weird situation. So after that, we went on our hundred.

honeymoon. We went to the Bahamas and went on a cruise and had a really great time. No weird issues, nothing that was concerning. Kind of gave me a frame of reference for our time together. But then we got back and it was probably a week or two after that that I woke up in the middle of the night and she was kind of looking down at me and had a dead look in her eyes. but she wasn't awake. She was touching my face, not really rubbing it, just had her hand on my face. And it freaked me out.

So I called out her name and she didn't wake up. And I had to kind of push her or like kind of jolt her. And she woke up and said, well, I was just having a really weird dream, but it's nothing. And at that point, I was really freaked out because it's just weird when somebody's like, watching you sleep. It's just an uncomfortable thing. Um, and yeah, she, she is going to hate this part of

the story, but it just, it gave me some like, what am I in for here? Like, this is, you know, we're not even a month into marriage and this is freaking me out. But after that, I don't think anything really occurred for a while. That was probably in, May or June. But then that Halloween, we were looking at a window and noticed that in our neighbor's backyard, probably two doors down, they had a bonfire going, which it was a pretty like reasonably sized bonfire for being within city limits. But watching them, they weren't like just standing around talking, but they were like

linked arm in arm and like dancing around the fire itself, which is just kind of odd. It definitely wasn't people just like mulling about talking or dancing. This was like an organized, orchestrated group dance, which just kind of maybe it's nothing, but it sure felt like something was off. Just, yeah, just odd to have people linked up like swirling around the fire essentially. They were linked arm and arm and just like jumping and dancing around the fire. So they it was probably six or seven people probably, like linking around the fire. I've never researched it to see, like, if that's an actual dance. But it definitely seemed like you could tell something was off with it.

I remember on Halloween night, I went outside in our backyard and I was letting our dog out. And I noticed two houses down, our neighbors were doing like a weird, they were having a bonfire. What is what I originally thought? But then I started noticing them gathering around the fire and doing a weird dance where their arms were linked and kind of going around it. Okay, they're just friends.

You know, I didn't think much of it. But they were doing that for a while and I went inside and I told Holden, our neighbors are doing, you know, some weird dance around a bonfire in their backyard. I was like, I don't know what that's all about, but it's Halloween, so, you know, who knows what. So we went to bed.

And shortly after this thing happened at our neighbor's house, we started having weird things happen at our house. My wife definitely, like, she's pretty intuitive, and she could tell something was off. Like, she's very, like, cautious and sensitive to that kind of thing. she's never watched a horror movie like absolutely refuses to watch a horror movie like just not something she wants to open up

I think she sees them almost as like a gateway into letting something in to your world so after Halloween, after seeing the neighbors dancing things started to pick up and definitely we noticed more issues appearing The first issue that really was kind of a wake-up was we had a painting hanging directly over our couch. This was probably three foot by four foot or right around there. And it was attached to the wall.

There was two screws, two pegs that went into the wall. And there was a wire that went across the back of the picture. So to get it off, you would have to pick it up over those screw heads and lift it. And I came out to go to work one morning and the picture was sitting on our couch, like on the cushion as if you would sit. Like the frame was on the seat and the picture was hanging out. And I went and inspected it and everything was still connected. The wire was still there. The pegs were still there.

And it was really obvious that there's no way that that thing is coming off the wall and sitting how it landed on that couch. without something picking it up and setting it there. Which I didn't know what to make of it at that time. I think we were just kind of weirded out. Like, what is going on? Why is that there? We didn't hear any noises at night. There was nothing to, like, indicate that something had gone wrong.

If it had fallen, I feel like we would have heard it, or we would have fallen and hidden the floor. There's just no way that it lands how it does silently. without alerting us somehow. Okay, this part's hard to describe, but I've seen a photo of the painting and where it was found, and maybe I can just clarify.

This is a really large painting. It's probably four feet wide, and I'd say it probably weighs at least like 10 or 15 pounds. And they had it hanging above a very bouncy-looking couch. So if this thing somehow fell off the wall on its own, which is very unlikely, I'd say it's pretty much impossible for it to land how they found it. If it fell off the wall, it would have hit that couch and bounced right under the ground.

But it was sitting right there perfectly. I just, it makes no sense seeing it myself. It's not like this is a visual straight out of a horror movie. I mean, most things aren't. But there's something really unsettling about realizing that things are being moved inside your home by something that isn't you. So I thought I'd clear that up. Let's get back to the story.

And then a little while after that, I went to work. I go to work pretty early, and my wife called me probably 20, 30 minutes after I left, and she was panicked and crying. And she said that there was somebody in the house, somebody had broken in. She was in the room with our dog, and she said that she heard the sound of something clanging against our metal dog kennel.

So we had like a wire spoke dog kennel. And she said she heard something like slowly clicking against those pegs, which is pretty distinctive. And for reference, the house is like it was really small. It was probably like a two-bedroom apartment, probably 800 square feet. So this was in the next room over, not something that you're going to like, you're going to hear it. And she was sure. So I called the police and rushed home.

And when I got home, the front door was still locked and the back door was still locked. And the police showed up. We walked the house. There was nobody in the house. There was no signs of force entry. No indication that anybody had come into the house or left. the house. So I think at that point we knew that like something weird was going on, that something was maybe alerting itself to us or announcing itself to us. And around that time, like, you never

know if it's in your head or if it's something palpable, but you could feel like a heaviness in the air. And even if I was home alone, you would just feel like it doesn't feel like I'm alone. It doesn't feel like, I don't know, you could just feel a weight. You could feel like somebody was maybe like peering around the corner. And it wasn't comfortable for sure. I guess the first thing that I remember is probably I started hearing noises at night, scratching on our windows. We had screen windows outside of our bedroom windows. And I would be laying in bed at night and I would hear, it would just sound like somebody, somebody was scratching their nails on our screen windows. And I would look out the window, nothing's there, but it would get, it was fairly loud.

And that would happen in the evenings a lot or if I'd wake up during the night, it would hear that noise. There was, um, a night where, I guess it was very early in the morning at that point, Holden was getting up for work at, you know, five o'clock in the morning and leaving at 5.30. And I remember one morning I woke up and I opened my eyes and hovering right above me very closely. It was a very black, shadowy figure. And that's kind of when I realized, like, there's something really, this is weird. I tried not to freak out about it. I honestly, I prayed and I closed my eyes and I prayed like, God, I don't know what's going on.

There's something weird going on here. and I was like, just please make it go away, and I opened my eyes and it was gone. But that was probably the moment I realized that something more was at hand, I guess, you could say. So that happened. There was a morning, again, we're holding. He got up really early,

and I was getting ready to get up and get ready for work. And we had a dog kennel in our spare room for our doggies, and I started hearing it sounded like somebody was vigorously shaking our dog kennel. And I was in our bedroom and I freaked me out. And it sounded like somebody was opening the door and shutting the door. And so I called Holden and told him that I thought somebody was in our home. And we called the, I finally left our bedroom.

We called the police. They came and they checked all the entryways and everything and they didn't see anything. So there was nothing suspicious. there so that was another thing that just seemed very very odd and then I woke up one morning and went out to our living room and there was a huge we had this painting over our couch and it's hung with a wire so it's very hard to take off of the wall you'd have to lift it up and take it off and it was just sitting perfectly perpendicular on our couch, which was very odd. So I called him and asked him if he had taken the painting off of the wall. And he said, he said he hadn't. So that was also

bizarre that our painting just was sitting on the, on the couch. So after all of these things happened, I finally just, I decided, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I. I just felt this feeling inside of me that there was something going on in our home. And I just felt like a tug in my heart, I guess is the only way to put it that I needed to call my dad. And my dad's still a pastor. And I explained to him, you know, what was going on in our home. And I hadn't really talked about it with other people. I don't, not with my parents or, you know, people at work or anything.

but I told him, I was like, this stuff has been going on. It's weird. I told him, I don't know if it's spiritual, but I said it's uncomfortable. And we need to do something about it. So I asked him if he would come pray over our home. And, you know, and on my faith, you can, you know, he came over and he anointed our home with oil,

all the doors on our home and the windows. And he just came and he prayed over our home that there would be peace in our house. our home and that whatever was going on, whatever had been in our home, kind of, you know, harassing us, I guess, in a sense would be gone and that we would never experience anything again. And he prayed a blessing over our home. And after he did that, it was like you could just feel just a weight lifted. And there was just peace in our home. And we never had anything happen again in that home or any other home that we've ever lived in. So, I mean, and I, you know,

when I told Holden when I'm talking about this, I just honestly, until this came up, I hadn't talked about it in years. And I guess it's simply because I just don't want to, I just think this stuff is real and I don't want to glorify it. And I think it's something that you don't want to mess with. Because it's, it can be very simple. And thankfully for like me, I have like my faith and my faith brought me peace because I felt like I knew what was going on. But it's scary stuff and it's real, you know. After that, everything stopped. That was really kind of the end of whatever it was being in our lives.

We lived in that same house for two years after that and never had another occurrence that flagged itself. or that like seemed like something was off. It seemed to do the trick. Okay, we have to take a quick break, but we will be right back. Okay. Sorry, I talked a lot. No, you did great.

That was awesome. Okay, I have a bit of a curveball to throw at you guys. What if I were to invite a man into this Zoom call that could maybe answer some of our questions about the ritual? He's a bit of a character, but he knows... Sure. Sure. You're down?

Yeah. All right, perfect. I'm going to send him the Zoom link. I don't even know if he's home, but it would be a good surprise if he could get him on. It's all right. I mean, I don't know. I really want to know more about this ritual thing. I was a little skeptical at first, but I don't know.

I kind of can't stop thinking about it. Yeah. I even made... Honestly, I made a joke that night. Like, oh, our neighbors are having, like, they're... I don't even remember some witches, which, which, you know, like, I just didn't think much of it. But obviously, it was, it was more than them just. Hillary, one sec.

I think, I think we have our special guests. I think he's joined. I don't know if he could hear us yet. Let me see. Sean, are you able to hear us right now? Yeah, I could hear you guys. What's up? Okay.

I just joined that. I wasn't eaves dropping. No worries. Guys, this is Sean Johns. I don't even how to. Hey, how to do you. I don't even how to explain you, really. He's a bit of an expert on this type of stuff.

And I thought if anybody could answer our questions about this ritual, it might be him. Sean, I think I told you, do you remember what I told you on the phone about these people? The people doing the dance in their back here. Okay, these was the, uh, these told me the story like last month. Yeah, people were doing like a linked arm dance around a bonfire on Halloween. Okay, uh, what kind of outfits were they wearing? I honestly, probably, I'm not sure. I remember there were like some people in costume, but some people in robe.

Okay. But now I don't think everybody was in robes, but there were some robes and then some costumes. And some people were probably just in their normal. I mean, it didn't seem, at that time, it didn't seem super suspicious because it was Halloween. And I didn't, you know. Okay. And was there any kind of, you guys ever find anything in your yard? coins, pictures alike, nothing?

Not that I'm not. No. Okay, anything in the mail? Anybody give you something? I don't think so. I don't think we ever interacted with them. No. Anybody take anything out of your house?

Not that we're aware of. No. Okay, because if somebody was... I'm sorry, that's so scary. None of those things that we are aware of, obviously. Yeah. Okay, because let's say if somebody was trying to do something to, you know, hurt you guys, they would either need to leave an object that they was messing with in your yard,

or they would have to take something from your house and start, you know, doing weird stuff with it. Okay, okay. So from what it sounds like to me is it was, you know, people joking around on Halloween, and they didn't know anything what they were doing. They probably bought a book from, you know, Barnes & Noble and said, hey, let's do this on Halloween, see if we could talk to somebody. And then by doing that, they awoke in what was in your house and made it way more stronger than before.

Did it get stronger after the ritual was done? Yeah, that's when things kind of started actually happening, Prior to that, there was only one thing that kind of happened. And after that is when things started progressing. A few start calling things and you don't know how to call them. And you had an entity in your house beforehand. You could think of that like pumping it with a little bit of steroids. So it got a lot more power from what they did.

So you think they were just goofing around, John, the neighbors. They weren't like... I think it sounds like... more like they were goofing around because let's say if everybody came in and they were trying to summon seron from Lord of the Rings, right? You would think, you know, they would all have the same outfit on, right? Yeah. Over here, Lake Michigan, you know, you get them in Michigan City a lot more. You're familiar with Michigan City, right? I am, yeah. Okay, so in Michigan City, right, where that nuclear power planets. Yep.

there's that big beach and usually around on the solstices they come through at night and they wear the robes and they light this big bonfire i don't know what they do i don't know who they're praying to but it's uh most likely a satanic type thing what they're doing it's super crazy that's why i always tell everybody like don't bring the rocks back from the beaches i'm talking about the huge ones Oh, wow. Yeah. That's terrifying. You say don't bring the rocks back from the beach in Indiana because they might have been used in rituals.

Oh, yeah. I'm talking about the beach. Are seashells safe or is that off? Tell our kids never to bring any seashells home. Yeah, but you can bring the seashells. Like, you know, I'm talking about the big, great rocks where they're lighting their bonfires out of. Oh, yeah. Sean, you have a real talent of, like, giving an.

answer that creates 30 more questions. But thank you so much for jumping on, Sean, and trying to put these people at ease. I'm not sure that you did, but, I mean, it sounds like their neighbors weren't doing anything super serious. Yeah,

I think it sounds like the neighbors messing around because if you're going to summon something, all right, is this, I'm sorry, there's a lady here, so I'm going to talk a little bit weird. they were really, really evil trying to do something insanely evil.

They would have been naked. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. I'm talking about that real old magic. So it would be almost something like that. But, you know, if they were Wiccans, you know, they would have had on the nice matching outfits, man. You're organized.

I think we've permanently. scared Holden's wife because she's now left the room. Now, our daughter came up. She's got to go wrangle. All right, guys. Well, Sean, thanks for joining us. I'm going to say goodbye to them, but I'll talk to you soon. All right, no problem. Anytime, Jack. All right, see ya. All right, Sean. I got to say, I think you might have scared those people more than you help them. Well, I tried my best to calm them down, I guess. I guess I got to work on that. No, you did. You did good. You did good. You did good. I think it just did good. I think it just

took some unexpected twists and turns. But I don't know. Like, what do you... I guess we got to wrap this up at a certain point, but like, what do you... Were you being sincere? Do you think those people were just messing around next door? What makes it stick out a little bit is the dancing and that there was some people wearing the all-black outfits.

So, without me being there and seeing the dance myself, I'm going to go through and say that most likely it's something pagan. because of the day of Halloween. Okay, got it. Is Gina home right now? Would she know about this, too? Yeah, Gina would know some stuff about it. Let's get her in here.

My bride. Hi. Hey, what do you think of this? It's definitely very close to be considered like Sal Wayne. And that's what we were, like, what I was thinking. But obviously, it's hard to really know 100% again if you're not there. but just the way that they were depicting what was happening, it seemed like that was very much it.

And for the people who don't know what that is, it's representative of the autumn. So it falls on Halloween. And so it's when the spiritual veil is the thinnest. And what I mean by that is spirits and fairies also, because it's Celtic, can come and go and enter in. And it's an easier way to connect with your loved ones

or the spirit world in general. And so it's something where people will do certain things to connect. You don't really know what they were trying to connect to because some people do it to connect with their loved ones. Some people will do it in a more like sinister way and connect with something else, get out of curiosity. Like it could have been a couple, like a bunch of people that had just seen it on Google

and wanted to try it, like in a more like negative like standpoint. Or it could be that, you know, they were trying to connect with fairies. You know, it really could take on way more different things. So it depends. See, here's the deal about it. So, you know, I'm not crazy here, so everybody knows. I'm not schizophrenic. This is hundreds of years of culture that we're talking about.

This new modern age of Christianity and Catholic is younger than what their beliefs are. The way you commune with fairies and try to entice them in is, you know, you go on that much circle and they're dancing in it. Well, how would you communicate with them is you start dancing with them. Now, it's not like, no, not this again. But it's not like the actual manifestation of Tinkerbell. It's the manifestation of I give something what it wants and it gives me something in return. Now, it's not like how the gnomes are where they want your life at the end. These are just more like mischievous spirits who just give you what you want, but they like living with you and fucking around. But guess what? At the end of the day, you're giving them the offerings and

you're giving them that power. There's an exchange. There's always an exchange over everything. It's you're reaching out and asking the world like a manifestation, but you're manifesting it into a force that you don't understand. It's always down to your intention is the defining line of what you open yourself up to receive. All right, as tempting as it is, guys, I cannot go down the path of the fairies in this episode. We got to keep this grounded to Holden and Hillary. I'll save that for a different episode and a different day,

but basically you're saying that you think that the neighbors might have been doing some kind of dance related to Sawin or some kind of pagan dance, whether it was intentional or they just saw it on Google and thought it might be fun, but either way, you think that it might have kind of amplified

what was going on in Holden's house. Is that right? I think it's very possible for both those scenarios just because, like, there could have been ill intent in what they were doing, right?

For, like, all we know, they could have been trying to summon something like way more sinister. But even if they weren't, let's say if they weren't, right? And if it was, like,

kind of innocent fun or if they were trying to reach their answer, or things like that, that's something that could very much amplify what's going on in their home. Or if there wasn't a proper filter installed, essentially, like, so to speak, then it could have let something else in that environment. Guess what? If it's right next door to someone's house. Property lines are a human construct at the end of the day. Yeah. If it was, like, right next door, then you're kind of part of it, accidentally a part of this thing. And so it can definitely, like, bleed into your environment. And especially if like if there was already some ghost like stuff or

things happening in their home already or if it was already something connected, it's going to amplify it. And I just want to be clear. Like we're not implying that there's something inherently bad about pagan or, uh, these Celtic traditions or anything like that. I think it sounds like you're saying that these people were likely treating it like a game, right? Like they saw it on Google and We're just like, hey, let's try this thing. Let's goof around and it'll be fun. Is that sort of the case? And yes, and not respecting that religion.

There's nothing wrong with being a pagan. There's nothing wrong with being a wicked. It's just, you know, let me try to do what you do. I'm going to make 100 mistakes, right? You need to respect what it is your going into. I fully respect it and understands, like, the power behind it. You know what I mean? Like, no matter what, if you put intention into something, you're awakening something.

something, no matter what it is. So it's having the responsibility at the end of the day to know that what you're doing and respecting it, especially in a spiritual platform like this, to make sure that you're being respectful to what you're doing and to the people around you as well. That's what is important here. Guys, thank you so much for helping me out last minute with this. Pleasure as always. Hopefully you didn't scare. Holden and Hillary with your stories about Lake Michigan. Hopefully.

I mean, we didn't even touch you on the mouthman that looks up there yet. Oh, no. All right, that brings us to the end of this episode. I want to thank Holden and Hillary so much one more time for telling us their story. I did talk to them since we recorded this, and they were very grateful to have talked to Sean Johns. He did not scare them, even though I was a little. I was a little worried with this line of questioning back there. It might have freaked them out a bit more.

But they're very grateful and nothing has happened in the house since then. I also want to thank Sean and Gina for coming in one more time and lending me their expertise. Sorry to anybody who was teased by the fairy stuff, maybe one day. But we do not have the time for that. It brings us to the end of this episode. This has been episode 15. The title is Honeymoon Phase. And you've been listening to Otherworld.

Otherworld is executive produced and hosted by myself, Jack Wagner. Our theme song is by Cobberman. The soundtrack of this episode is by Juice Jackal. Editing and Engineering by Theo Schaefer. The artwork for our show is by Coltysak Studios. This is an independent show, so please show us your support by subscribing, leaving a five-star review, and especially telling your friends. If you want to follow us on social media, we're at OtherworldPod on Instagram and Twitter.

If you know somebody who has experienced something paranormal, supernatural, or unexplained, you could send us their story at stories at otherworldpod.com.