Otherworld - Episode 37: The Salmon River Creature

Episode Date: June 26, 2023

A lawyer named Dennis has a terrifying encounter in the woods of upstate New York that leaves him confused and unsettled to this day. He and his friend were awoken by a horrible inhuman growling and before seeing a very tall dark Cryptid-like, creature. Thank you to Frank Buffalo Hyde and Louie from the Onondaga Nation for talking with me about this. I reached out to Kate as well and spoke over text but she is in China for work until July! Maybe we can have her on in the future to discuss it in more detail. To see photos related to this episode, click here Subscribe to Otherworld on Patreon for exclusive content and bonus interviews Check out our Merch Follow us on: Instagram, TikTok, Twitter  If you have experienced something paranormal or unexplained, email us your full story at [e-mail] To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, everybody. Before we begin today, a quick announcement. This is episode 37, and it's going to be the final episode of Season Zero for Otherworld. I know that sounds bad, but it's actually good news. We're going to be taking a very quick break and then coming back bigger and better than ever. I will explain that in more details at the end of this episode. So stay tuned after the story's over. I have some exciting announcements. Welcome to Otherworld. I'm your host, Jack Wagner. This episode comes from a guy named Dennis who had a terrifying experience in the woods that he wrote into me about.

Dennis is currently a lawyer, and so is the person he was on this trip with where he experienced all of it. He seems like a really factual, by the book, research type guy, and I know he hesitated for a while before sending this in. And what's interesting about this one is how much time he's spent in the woods before all this happened. He was a Boy Scout. He's climbed mountains. He's spent a huge amount of time outdoors. In fact, I think once you hear him talk for just a couple minutes, you'll be able to tell how much of a nature nerd he is. This is not the type of guy who gets spooked in the woods.

Quite the opposite. I could tell he feels very in control when he's outdoors, and he's spent so much of his life out there without any incident, except for this one. And while interviewing him, I could tell how much it still scares him all these years later and confuses him. I'm going to let him tell the story for himself. This is episode 37. The title is The Salmon River Creature. And you're listening to Otherworld. I guess I'll just jump right in.

So a little bit of background. You know, I work as a lawyer. I'm in New York City now. It's a big change for me. I grew up in Syracuse, New York, which is like four, four and a half hours upstate. We joke that, you know, a lot of people, like New York City people, you say upstate, they think like Westchester County. And like, they just don't realize that this huge, like, swath of territory exists. Syracuse, it's like city of like 100,000 people.

It's not small. It's smaller than it used to be, like, a lot of abandoned factories. But one of the things I like about it is it's very much a city, but you can drive like 45 minutes in any direction and just be in like the ass middle of the woods if you want to. I've been all over like the wilderness up there. I've climbed probably 1920 of the high peaks in the Adirondacks, which is relatively nearby.

I sort of got interested in, you know, outdoorsy things. things up there when I was a Boy Scout. You know, I didn't get very far in the, that my dad was an Eagle Scout. I think he's always a little disappointed. I didn't really get far in the Boy Scout hierarchy, but I did develop a passion for camping, like all seasons, all weather, particularly backpacking. Like I love the idea of like walking into the woods with only what's on your back and like, that's what you've got. This was not that kind of camping trip. Kate doesn't, my friend Kate, I've known her. I'm not even sure how long I've known her.

She's like a core memory type friend, like since we were little children. You know, I'm very close with her family. She's like a second daughter to my parents practically. And, you know, she was also sort of into this, you know, outdoor lifestyle. I know she did ROTC for a little bit. Like she knows her shit. I was always very comfortable, you know, going into the woods with her. And we were friends through, you know, late elementary, middle, high school.

And at the end of high school, she had just, I think at this point, I was taking college classes. But, like, I was sort of like, iffy about, like, is this what I want? You know, obviously I did end up finishing. I went to law school and all of that. And, you know, the more I become a confirmed member of the bureaucracy, the more I like appreciate this sort of ability to like run off to the woods periodically. There's just something nice about like throwing your phone like in your bag and being like no reception out here. But anyway, at this point in our lives, you know, we were both kind of like, is this what we want to be doing?

Like she had just gone to college in Philadelphia and realized it wasn't for her and come home and was like, you know, feeling. I think a little bit like a washout. She's not. She did like a semester at community college and ended up going to Cornell. Like she's really, really smart. But both of us were kind of feeling like, you know, teenage 20-something dirtbags at this point in our lives. And a way that we would deal with that is we knew all of these little camping spots from, you know, growing up in this area. We knew like, oh, yeah, you drive, you know, up 81, you get off at this, like, like,

like little bumble fuck exit and like drive down a country road for a while you'll find a cool spot and we'd like sort of like trade these spots back and forth between us like if one of us heard about something we'd be like oh we got to go check this place out and there's some there's some creepy spots up there too there's this uh this one spot called whiskey hollow that like there's a a natural spring like people go there to get water from it but like there's also like a bunch of weird like almost intentionally planted like tree arrangements and stuff and there's like legends that were there were like witches covens that met there and stuff it's probably bull crap but it was fun to camp at but anyway i have no idea

how she found out about this spot the the spot where all of this went down is like probably one of the remote the most remote places i've ever camped which is surprising because like you can drive to it like i've gone on trips where like you know i if you want to get to the site you have to hide like, you know, 13 miles into the woods with all your stuff on your back, but like you'll still see like 15, 20 people when you get there. This was not that kind of place. Like, it was a catch basin, which I'm not really sure what its purpose is. I know that it's on the Salmon River, which is a river that is north of Syracuse,

probably like an hour drive to get to the river itself. But what we would do is we'd take the highway up and then we'd get off and then, you know, find our way down some like dusty country roads. So how this thing was oriented is you would drive down this county route. I'm not sure which route it is miles from the highway. it'd get really, really quiet. Like, in the dark, I swear to God, there was, like, hitch black. Like, there was your headlights and nothing else.

Like, you know, you'd pass a trailer park, maybe a couple scattered, like, farmhouses, and then there'd be, like, no structures. I'd estimate, like, this place was probably, like, 10 miles from the nearest, like, man-made structure. And then there was this little, like, what I would guess is, like either an access road for the DEC or like maybe an old logging road. And like if you didn't know where it was, you totally miss it. It's like just a little turnoff. It looks like an accident like off of this county route.

And this road is like crazy bumpy. Like potholes does not describe it. It's just like it was probably never like leveled by machinery and it never will be. and she had this crappy little Honda Accord, rest in peace. I love that car, that was, you know, perpetually sort of like holding on to life. And we take these trips because like we were both kind of feeling like burnouts at this point in our life. And like this was our escape. You'd be like, you know, run off to the woods for a day or two.

you know, we'd throw the tent in the car. We'd bring almost always her border collie Lucas, who was like, I think at that point he was like fairly old, but he was so protective of her. And like, because I had been around and in her life for so long, he's very protective of me too. Like, we were, we used to joke, like, we were his flock, like we were his sheep.

And he would like, he didn't like it if we'd, like, stand more than like 20 feet apart and have a converse He'd like try to hurt us closer together. So we we take him. We'd take, you know, food, hot dogs, like beers. And when I say beers, I mean, like we'd take like one six pack. Like we were kids, uh, functionally. And we would just drive out to these sites. Like I remember some nights like we didn't, we would do this like so slapdash that there were a couple times where we like

didn't even bring a tent. Like, we just slept in sleeping bags, like, on the ground in some woods. And on this occasion, she's, like, taking me down this road. And I'm like, where fuck are we? Like, this is really weird. Like, I don't think we're supposed to be here. And, like, we, we objectively weren't. It was DEC land. We were trespassing. It was owned by the state for, you know, whatever they did there, whether it's, like, fisheries or. something to do with the dam. And you'd go down this road, this really bumpy road with like very dense, like thickety woods

on both sides of you, like impenetrable woods at night. Like you could not see past the road. So we tried to get there in the day usually. But we'd come down this road and then like there would be like a little pad, like a little like hand packed, leveled pad. and we'd park there. And then if, like, if you just, like, accidentally drove down this road, like, you would never guess that there was a spot of camp down here.

You'd get to that. You'd be like, well, this is done. But if you knew to go through this, like, copes of woods at the edge of this little, I don't even want to call it a parking lot. Like, that's what you used it for, but it was, like, not a proper parking lot. You would come to this, like, basin, this, like, open sort of pond. that was clearly man-made and it was connected to a big old stream

which I assume is like a tributary of the river by this like huge like big enough to swim through concrete pipe with probably like 15, 20 feet in diameter and the edge of the little pond, the little basin was made up of dirt that was like packed over this thing and you'd walk across that. Like, there was only enough space on this thing, probably to walk single file.

And it was just like this perfect little idyllic, super secluded camping spot on the edge of this little pond. And it was absolutely surrounded on all sides by, like, really, really dense foliage. Like, you were so private from the road. So anyway, this site was, like, our favorite place to go after she took me there, because it had, you know, we could swim in the pond.

There was like a nice place to like lay out and get some sun. There was a good spot for a fire pit. Although we always, like we never saw signs of other people camping there. Like usually when you find a site, like even a backcountry site, like in an official site, you'll usually be able to like, oh yeah, that was a fire ring. You know, you'll find tent stakes that people have left behind. But like we never saw anything like that. we'd always have to build our own fire pit.

We'd always take it apart before we left because we didn't want to like advertise that we were using it. So that's what we did. We would come here, you know, probably like once, twice a month for a while.

It was like our go-to spot. And after probably about a dozen times of using this is like when all of this went down, which was extremely strange. Like it, I say that only to say, like, we had gone here enough that we were like super comfortable with it. We were like, oh, yeah, you know, there's nothing wrong with this spot. Like, no one's ever going to find us here. Like, it's really secluded.

You know, it's our little secret. So one day we go out there. I remember it was like a particularly good camping trip too. Like we were having fun. We were, you know, roasting. I think I was like fancy and like, I'm like, fancy and like, I didn't even get hot dogs. I, like, got sausages. And we were, we're grilling sausages over the fire. We had been swimming all day. Lucas, who didn't usually like to go in the water, had, like, come in the water with me.

And we had, like, one big tent. Sometimes we'd bring our own. Sometimes I'd bring my hammock and she'd sleep in the tent. But, like, on this occasion, it had been, like, kind of last minute. So we just brought her big tent and we were both going to sleep in it in our sleeping bags. So we're like, we're winding down. You know, there's really not much to do that far out. Like after it gets dark, then like go to sleep. So we've had our dinner. It's dark out. We're getting bored of sitting by the fire.

So we're like, let's go to bed. But like this whole time, like as soon as it got dark, like Lucas just started acting really weird. He was ordinarily like the, until the day he died, he was like the happiest dog you'd ever meet. Like very anxious because like border collies are like anxious dogs. But he really was not anxious in this place. Like he loved this site almost more than we did.

We would have him on what you call a hunting leash or what she'd call a hunting leash, which was like he'd have his harness on. But like literally it was just like a like 20 foot nylon rope tied to this harness. And like it's designed to like. let him go and like just run and like you know you can get a hand on him if you need to for safety reasons but like otherwise he was a free man when he was in this little copse of woods and he loved that there were like tons of squirrels to chase there were like fish to look at he was a very curious boy and he really really liked this spot so as soon as it gets dark though like he just gets like

super, super anxious. Like, he's, like, I don't know if you've heard, like, dogs will do, like, you know, the little wine, like, yeah, like when they're just not sure of something. And he was doing that a lot. And he was, like, particularly sort of, like, staring at the tree line. I would see him get, like, you know, anxious in the city sometimes. Like, you know, with road noise and all that, he'd get a little overwhelmed. But, like, out in the woods,

never. He was always, like, thrilled to be there. Like, he, he knew the dirt road. And, like, when we'd turn on to the dirt road, he'd, like, get really excited and start bouncing around the back seat, usually. And the whole time he was there, usually, he was very, very chill. He liked to just vibe with the whole place, usually. And, and that's the thing, too, is, like, the sort of part of the idea of bringing him, at least the first couple times was, like, like, you know, he's aware of stuff we're not. Like, he can let us know if something's up. And he never, never alerted us to anything before this night.

Like, he was always like, no, this is a great place. I'm happy to be here. And as far as the border collie can communicate that. But this night, he was like glued to Kate. He was like healing, like right up against her leg for a lot of it. he would like sniff around the tree line a little bit and then like come right back and like heal against her and whine and she was like you know petting him trying to reassure him like there's nothing there it's fine and she even said to me i think she was like he's he's being weird

but you know that in and of itself didn't really raise any alarm bells for us okay we have to take a quick break but we will be right back i think this would have been yeah this would have been in august so it is still very hot but like it's it's getting dark earlier. And this particular night, like, it seemed like night just felt like a freaking blanket. Like I don't attribute that to anything really, except that it was late August, but like it got dark.

And like there was really like not a lot of time between like, oh, it's light out and oh, it's pitch black. And I think that was part of our impotenti. to just, like, go to bed. Like, there's really nothing to see. So, you know, I pour water on the fire. I kick the ashes, make sure it's out cold. And then, you know, we zip up in our tent.

I'm out like a light. I often am when I'm camping. Like, I have problems sleeping a lot of at the time. Like, I'm very prone to insomnia normally. But, like, when I'm out in the woods, when I'm, like, getting fresh air, when I'm doing physical things, like, I tend to just, like, drop out cold. Probably, like, I want to say, like, 3 a.m.

I'm like, I sort of come out of sleep, and, like, Kate's, like, over me, and she's, like, there's something outside the tent. Like, there's something outside the tent. I need you to wake up. Like, there's something very close to the tent. And our tent was, like, pretty close to the tree line here. It was probably, like, seven or eight feet from where the tree starts. And the area that it was placed close to was like trees and then in front of it and like around them was like really thick like pricker bushes.

You know, not nice to try to walk through. So we didn't. But we figured, you know, we'll put it at the edge of the site over here. Anyway, she's trying to shake me awake and telling me that she's hearing stuff out of the tent. And I'm thinking, you know, whatever, it's coy dogs. Like, this is an area of the state that I know very well and, like, she knows very well. And there's really just not a lot of, like, large predators or predators, period in this area. Like, there's not bobcats. There's, like, black bears are almost non-existent. Like, I guess it's theoretically possible that, like, a black bear could wander down

this fall during like salmon season but like there are parts of this river that are like way closer to the mountains that are like way easier for black bears to get to like a black bear would have to be pretty lost so I'm thinking it's coy dogs like the main thing in this area is coy dogs and I like I distinctly remember like I pulled away from her kind of and like rolled over and like tried to go back to sleep and she like will not stop she will not stop she was shaking me and she's like, no, it's not a coy dog. Like, I don't know what it is, but like, it's, it's right by the tent. Like, it's in the woods. It's in this stand of trees, like, right by the tent. I'm like, whatever. I'll get up and I'll see what it is. So normally,

Lucas would have been like, you know, let's go. I'm going to handle this. Like, I'll help you scare them off. He would have been, like, barking, like, right at the tent flap, but he's, like, curled up, like terrified. And another thing I noticed was like his fur was like up. Like I don't know if you've ever heard the term hackles, but it's like the little like patch of fur like on their back right in the middle. And if you sufficiently startle a dog, like that will just stick up straight. And I don't think I'd ever seen him do that before, but his hackles were up.

And I'm like, all right. okay, maybe it's a bear. So I've got this mess kit. Like, it's this really stupid, like, Boy Scout-ishy mess kit that we all had. So I exit the tent. I've got a flashlight, and I've got the two hemispheres of this thing.

And Kate comes out of the tent with me. Like, she puts Lucas as hunting leash on, and she comes to. out with me. And the instant they're out of the tent, Lucas is like away. He's like straining against the leash. He's like trying to pull her away from the noise and towards the direction of the car. Like back across this little bridge over the concrete pipe. He's like trying to get us to leave. And like more than trying to get us to leave, he's like putting his whole like body weight into it and she's like struggling to hold him. And when I get out of the tent, you know, I could hear

something sort of when she was in the tent trying to shake me. Like I heard rustling and I heard like, you know, breathing. Like, uh, not even breathing, like sniffling, like something like snuffling around on the ground. And that's what made me think it was coy dogs. But as I'm like coming out of this tent. I can hear it more clearly and I can hear that like whatever this is is like big, like way bigger than a coy dog, like at least a couple hundred pounds. It's like I can hear the footfalls and it's like snapping twigs and stuff. And that was the first thing that was weird to me is like this thing's not trying to be quiet. And like, you know, sometimes bears are not super concerned about whether or not they're making noise, but like pretty much every other

nocturnal animal I'm aware of, especially in this area, is like trying to be quiet, usually. But this thing was not. It was like, it seriously sounded like it was just like bumbling around in this bush. So I'm like, what is it? What is this thing? Like, it's got to be a bear. It's got to be a bear. Like, nothing else would be making this much noise. At this point, this is like a practiced reflex for me. I take the two halves of my mess kit and I start banging them together. I'm like, get out of here. Like, go on.

And I'm expecting I'm going to hear it turntail and, you know, scurry off because that's typically what they do. But whatever it is starts making this noise. Like this, it's fucked up noise. Like, I can't replicate it. It was like very, like, very, like. like gutterol and like growly it almost like I don't know if you've ever heard like a dog that's about to throw up like it's like if you could make that as a sustained noise like but so much like

deeper and like it like the best way I can describe this noise as it is it was unnatural and it was like deeply threatening. It was clearly some sort of like, you know, I don't want you here. It was hostile. And I'm like, I don't know what this thing is, but I want it gone. I want it away from the campsite.

Like, I don't know what you are. I don't care what you are. So I start like pushing towards the bushes, like getting closer and like trying to be louder, like banging the pots and pans faster, like yelling louder. Like, go on getting.

out of here like fuck off and I'm like not it is not having the desired effect it's having the opposite of the desired effect this thing is just getting louder and angrier like the louder and angrier I get it's just reflecting this energy back at me and it it sounds like

at one point like I think when I was talking about it with Kate after she was like it sounded like it wanted to kill you and as far as we can like attribute feelings to this thing we don't know what it was like it sounded like it was really mad at you.

So eventually I'm like, what the hell is this thing you know, in an area where there's not supposed to be any predators? What is this like thing that is not afraid of me? So I grab my, I had like a little mag light with like a belt holster on my jeans

and like maybe this long, like six inch long maglite. And I pull it out of my little belt holster and I twist it to turn it on and I like hold it up like over my shoulder like overhand and I'm like what the hell are you and here's the thing and this is like in my opinion the most disappointing part of this story is like I couldn't see it like I had my light right on it like my light should have hit whatever this was like square in the face based on where that's the way. this noise was coming from. But I could not get a good look at this thing. And what I did see was I saw

the bushes it was in and I saw a dark shape, like just a huge, broader than my shoulders are across by a good margin shape. And when my light hit it, it was probably like four, four and a half feet tall, maybe, based on, like, the bushes I was looking at. But as my light hits it, it just, like, rises up, almost like it had been on all fours and, like, was now, like, standing up on its hind legs or, I didn't see legs. I don't know, standing up on a tined whatever. It was probably, I mean, and this was just estimating based on, like, the outline I saw. Like, it was the damnedest thing. Like, I had my light right on it, but like, you could not get a good look at it. It was almost like, instead of being lit from, like, the direction I was lighting it, it was

backlit instead. Like, you couldn't make out any features. But it was probably, like, it had to be at least seven feet tall standing up like that. You know, it was, it was wider than me by like almost a factor of two in terms of like where I think I saw like shoulders and its limbs were like you know, splayed out to the side of it when it stood up like this. And I can't really wrap my head around too much of what I saw, but like the limbs were like freakishly long. Like, like, wrong, like uncanny valley, like not human proportions, not bare proportions, just like too long, you know? And the entire time, it's making this like blood-curdling noise. And when it stood up, I did get a whiff of like, it, it smelled bad.

It smelled like B-O. and like garbage basically it smelled like it smelled rough it was a not a like it was a gag inducing smell that this thing had and i don't know if that was like just what it smelled like if that was its breath but like it was huge it was angry it had these like really messed up proportions um that's the thing though is like i i can tell you that you you it was dark colored. Like, I can't tell you if it was furry or not. Like, I can't tell you if it was like the sort of thing that walked on two legs normally and was like, you know, did this all the time. Or if it was like quadrupedal and like was standing up to intimidate me like a bear would. But

its limbs were just like wrong. And it made this gesture where it put its arms out. And it was like it's sort of like the gesture of like if you've seen like people you know get into like a fight outside a bar where they're just like what like come at me like this thing was spoiling for a fight like all i mean i can't exactly like tell you its motivations because i don't know what it was but like everything about this thing's body language and behavior was like I will fight you, like, and I will win. Get out of here. And we ran.

We, we, I, I really, like, pride myself on not being afraid of things in the woods. Because, like, are there things to be afraid of in the wilderness? Absolutely. Is it ever worthwhile to panic? Never. Like, you, like, you, like, I forget the old adage, but, like, it's like, you'll just, just die tired. Like,

predators in the woods, I was always taught, like, we'll pick up on, you know, your emotions. And like, they will tell if you're panicked.

And like, if you're panicked, that will embolden them. Which is why, like, with a bear, you don't run from it. You always confront it.

And like, you know, I lived in Colorado for a while. That was like, the whole thing with a mountain lion is like, you know, you yell at it. And, like,

you let it. I don't know that you see it so that it doesn't think it's got the drop on you. I mean, with Mountain Light, it's kind of pointless. Like, if Mountain Lion wants to kill you, like, it will. You probably won't even know it till it's over. But, like, this is upstate New York. Like, there are no mountain lions here. There's not even supposed to be any bears here.

There's just this thing. And I cannot to this day tell you, and I don't know if she could either, like, which one of us said it. but like one of us just went, run! And we were gone. Like, we left everything. If it wasn't the dog or in our pockets, it was, like, screw it. We'll get a new one.

We all, like, piled into this car. I mean, it was a Honda accord. It was a two-seater. Like, we were just, like, jamming ourselves into this thing, like, dukes of hazard style. And Kate is, like, flooring it up. this like really, really bumpy road. Like, it is a miracle we didn't, like,

go into a pothole and go out of control and hit a tree. Because, like, her car, she would ordinarily drive down this thing at, like, five miles an hour max. Because, like, we would have to go, like, you know, into and out of, like, big divots and all of that. And she's flying. She's just, like, I can hear, like, the bottom of the car, like, crunching against the ground.

Lucas is in the back seat at this point, and he's like, every hair on his body is just like spiked, and he's still whimpering, and he's like visibly like shaking, like adrenaline shaking. And I assume so was I. But, like, I have never been terrified by something in the woods like that. I'd like to say, you know, I've never been terrified by something in the woods, period. Like, I was taught well. Like, I was taught there's always an explanation. You know, they're always more afraid of you than you are of them.

Like, never show panic. There's always a way forward. But there was no way forward with this thing. There was no, I was going to scare it off. There was just, it wanted us gone. And, you know, it would have done whatever it took to get us gone, is what it felt like. Anyway, we drove, I don't know how long, but eventually we made it to a town that happened to have a McDonald's. And we just sat in this, like, well-lit McDonald's parking lot, like, all night.

We didn't sleep a wink. But the whole time, like, we were just sitting in the car. for a long time we sat there like in silence and then i think kate spoke up finally and she was like that wasn't a bear like i don't know what that was and i was like come on like we've got to we got to be able to figure this out like let's go through every like animal we know like we've both been camping here all our lives like and we couldn't come up with anything like nothing would that big. Nothing would be that aggressive. And the thing that like really freaks me out, like to this day, the thing that spooks me is something she pointed out like after the fact.

Like we were sitting there. And she just goes, you know, did you, did you see eye shine when you shined your light? Like, did you see any eye shine at all? Because I didn't. And I was thinking and I was Like, no, I didn't see eyeshine. Like, I didn't, I didn't see anything. I didn't see, like, where its eyes would be. Like, if you, like, you know, if your dog or cat is in a dark room at night and you look over at it, like, it'll have the glowing eyes. You know, if you're, like, backlit. Like, everyone's seen that at some time or another.

And, like, pretty much that is what animals do. Like, all of them have this, you know, that's, I know the DEC. literally will like categorize animals by like shining a spotlight into the woods at night and being like, let's count the eyes. You know, I've seen people I've backpacked with do that, like identify things by like the return from the eye shine. This thing didn't have any. Like, that's what really, really screwed with me. And I mean, again, we're like 10 miles away from the nearest structure.

So, yeah, we just, we were at a complete loss. We were like, I was literally sitting in her car with her, like, trying to, like, play animal sounds on YouTube. Like, is it this? No, not even close. Is it this? No. Like, we, the one thing we found that, like, was maybe close was, like,

a bobcat and heat. But, like, it was way deeper and basier. and more aggressive than that. And also there are no bobcats in that area at all. Like, it's like hundreds of miles to like anywhere that would have bobcats. So we were at a complete loss. But the next day we were like, you know, the sun came up. We were feeling a little bit better.

And we were like, we got to go back and get our stuff. It's like a tent, like, too relatively nice sleep. sleeping bags, like all of our cooking stuff, all of our, you know, camping stuff, all of our gear. So I get in, I get back in the car. Like, I, you know, go into McDonald's to pee, like, get some coffee for both of us. And I come back and I get out in the car. I'm like, all right, I guess it's not going to get any easier to go back. We might as well do it in daylight.

So, you know, we drive to this place. basically in silence because we're both just like very unnerved. And we go down the logging road. I believe Kate actually, like, she had a little can of mace in her glove compartment. She like pulled that out. And we're like, all right, let's go see, like, what the damage is. And we go back and our campsite is like, by the way, I should mention, like, Lucas. didn't even, he wouldn't even get out of the car.

Like he started whining on the logging road and like he, he just stayed like in the car with the windows down. Like he didn't want to get out and we were not going to make him. We get back and our site is like exactly, exactly the way we left it. Like the tent is still, the flap is still just like partially unzipped from when we came out. Like our sleeping bags are still in the exact same orientation. like our food is all still in the tent. I think we had a leftover beer or two.

They're still in there. And like the site has not been tossed. Like it hasn't been gone through. There's no footprints. There's no, you know, animal, man or otherwise. There's no like sign that anyone was there. There's like some crushed down like areas of bush where it was. But like there's no like,

fur caught on the bushes or like anything like that like there's just no clues it was almost like it didn't happen and i remember looking at her i was like did i imagine this like there was definitely something here last night right and she was like yeah there a hundred percent was but like i can't tell you you know looking in it now i couldn't tell you there was something there so we just gathered up all our stuff and we're like this makes even less sense than it did before if it was people, they absolutely would have, like, taken all of this, like, valuable camping gear. Or, like, you know, at least the beers. If it was animals, like, they 100% would have eaten the food.

Like, I would expect to find, like, the sausages we had left over, like, ripped up, you know, the packaging all ripped up all over the site. Because, you know, that's happened to us before and that's how that goes down. But there is nothing. It looked like it literally just like showed up, ran us off, and left. And we were like quiet the whole drive home. Except at one point, Kate was like, we can't go there anymore.

Like, we're never camping there again. I didn't talk about it outside of Kate for a long time. And I don't think she's like talked about it with anybody. I actually was texting with my parents last night and they were like, oh, what are you doing tomorrow? And I was like, oh, I'm going to be doing an interview for a podcast. And they were like, about what? And I realized I never even told my parents.

The people I've talked to about it who have, like, given me the most pushback on it, I think that they reject it and like try to throw labels on it that don't fit because the alternative is admitting that they don't know everything. The woods are big. Like, if you think you know everything that's in there, like, you're wrong. One thing I did try is Syracuse has a pretty big native population. The Onondaga Reservation actually butts right up against the city limits of Syracuse. I've got a couple friends with, like, you know, various amounts of native ancestry.

and I've only ever, like, approached, like, one or two of them about it. And, like, every person I've asked about it is, like, it instantly gotten, like, kind of cagey. Like, I don't want to talk about this with you. You know, obviously, I don't want to pry. There are topics that are just avoided because, like, giving them any. amount of air time and your thoughts or speech is like going to draw their attention. So I don't know if that's it. I don't know if they're just like, you know, this crazy white guy.

Like, I don't want to talk about this with him. Why does he think I know? It's just there's not a lot of answers. But yeah, I mean, if you could find somebody willing to share insights, like I would be very interested to hear that. My name is Frank Buffalo Hyde from the Onondogger Nation. I grew up equal time in Syracuse, New York on the Anadog Nation and Santa Fe, New Mexico. You know, people have been seeing strange things on our reservation.

Every season behind my mother's house, it's a heavily wooded area. We hear, like, trees being knocked together, and, you know, it's either, like, right after dark or just before it gets light out, rustling in the bushes, and then you would hear something that sounded like either trees knocking together or them, you know, large, loud snaps, like really deep thuds. And then in the next day we would go check them out. And there would be like these weird patterns in the weeds, like something was laying or rolling around. And then some of these like kind of juvenile trees that aren't quite tall or thick yet have been like snapped off their stumps like in the middle of the tree. So like something was rolling around or

pushing trees, breaking trees off. We think there's, something that comes back every year at two times a year usually when the seasons change. When we were building our family's loud cabin, it was partially finished and I think

it was the first week that we were actually staying in there and I got up to go to the bathroom and get something to drink and I was walking past the living or window and I happened to see these two tall figures one was dark and one was light. They were almost like dogs but they were

wider and taller and they were walking on their on their back legs i stopped and then i must have taken another step because they both turned over and looked at me they dropped down on all fours and took off running across the yard and i told other people about it and they said they've seen similar things uh generationally through through the years running around the same part of the res you know a couple times growing up i heard something heavy jump on top of the trailer and then land and then run across the length of it and jump off We went out to take a look and had just snowed and there was no footprints. Being on the nation, we kind of know that there's dark entities and light entities that exist all in the same realm and other realms.

I think we're just a little bit more open to that than other people. And other reservations, I talk about shapeshifters, but I don't think they don't have anything like skinwalkers or anything around. our nation. They just, you know, talk about people having the ability to do stuff like that or alchemists or witches, something like that. I mean, that's the best translation anyway. Sometimes you feel like if you talk about something, you give it power and you bring it to you or call it to you and manifest it in a way.

But I think, you know, there's certain things that we're taught not to really talk about because of that because it might, you know, give it enough energy to manifest and happen again. You know, we can't know everything about nature and there's certain parts of nature that we haven't been able to touch yet. And there's things around us all the time and stuff that we know nothing about

and shouldn't know anything about. So, yeah. Okay. Thank you to Dennis for sharing the story. I also want to thank Frank Bearhide from the Onondaga Nation for talking with me also thank you to Louis, who I also spoke with from Onondogna Nation. I actually spoke to a few people about this, and everyone gave me slightly different perspectives,

but the specifics of certain rituals and beliefs are not something that I think is discussed with outsiders, and I want to respect that. And I don't think anyone I talked to knew for certain what Dennis saw. Dennis certainly doesn't know what it is, and I also don't have a guess. And I say that, just to say that it seems genuinely outside the bounds of the stories that most of us are familiar with and these kind of categories of things that people are afraid of, I really don't know what it is and have specifically not put a label on it.

And that's why I find all of it so unsettling. So thank you again to everybody who spoke to me for this story. So before we go, I have an announcement. At the beginning of the show, it was supposed to be six episodes long, basically a mini-series. And in those first episodes, I was calling it Season Zero. It was really just a side project that I put out to see if anybody would even like it. I actually pitched Otherworld to a bunch of podcast networks last spring and got turned down. And I just decided to make it.

It was only six episodes long. I was calling it Season Zero because I didn't think it was enough to even call Season 1. But thanks to all of you, the show has grown so much. There's been a lot of interest in it. It's honestly overwhelming and I'm very grateful. I just signed a network deal to do many more episodes of Otherworld. Season Zero is coming to an end only because there are no more seasons. We're just going to keep going, which is great because there are still so many episodes.

that I've recorded that you haven't even heard yet. I'm very excited for this new chapter of the show. Everything about it is going to be the same, same team, same podcast, same everything, except for hopefully we're going to be growing it even bigger, getting some sponsors, and hopefully starting to pay some of the amazing friends I have helping me with something besides compliments. I'm going to take a brief break, and we'll be back July 10th with a big series that I've been working on for quite a bit.

I hope you all like long ones because this story was over nine hours of raw interviews. It tells the story of a horrible crime from the perspective of the person it happened to. And it also includes the paranormal aspects of it all that most likely would not be included if it were told on a normal show. So stay tuned for that. We're going to be back on July 10th. If you want to hear more episodes of Otherworld, you could always hear those on the Otherworld, But seriously, thank you to everybody that listens to this show. It's all so shocking, exciting, and overwhelming. And with that, I want to take a moment to thank some of the people individually who have helped me make other world. I feel like there's this misconception with some listeners where I could tell they imagine this show being made in like a studio with a team and interns and like, you know, organization, proper equipment and stuff. It's literally just me in my house on a laptop. Usually, in my pajamas grinding away with the help of some incredible friends that I've talked into

helping me out with this show. I could not have done it without them. I'm so incredibly grateful for them. So I want to thank some people. Thank you, first of all, to everybody who's ever told a story on this show. I'm so thankful to get to hear these stories in the first place and be trusted to tell them. A lot of times they're very sensitive and complicated stories, and it's really an honor to be able to tell them. I've gotten to know some of the guests really well in the process, and I'm just so thankful for every single one of them. Thank you and keep them coming.

Thank you to Cobra Man for letting us use your song as a theme. Me and the singer of that band, Andy, were actually roommates in a warehouse a long time ago where we slept on the floor together in an arrangement, sort of similar to how the grandparents slept in Willy Wonka in the Chocolate Factory. Thank you to Cobra Man for letting me use the song. Thank you to Colin Smite, who made the incredible cover art and logo for the show, among so many other things.

Colin, you are such an incredible designer. I don't know how I could ever repay you for this. Thank you to Theo Schaefer for editing and mastering most of the episodes. He is slightly too handsome to be editing podcasts, so for that reason, I'm very grateful to have him and all of his help. Thank you to Patrick McDermott, aka North Americans. Everybody knows his music by now. He's one of my very good friends, and he's let me use his music so much over the years. He's also made some incredible original scores for this show. So thank you to Patrick. Thank you to Ben Morseberger, aka Juice Jackal, an incredible musician, and made probably more scores for the show than anybody else that you've heard. He used to be the

guitarist of Blood Orange. He has many, many amazing side projects. Shout out to Ben for being an incredible musician and helping out so much in the show. Thank you to Treor-Tryon-de-Latore. an amazing musician and one of my great friends. He has a very complicated last name that just got even more complicated after getting married. Thank you to Trey for making so much amazing music for the show. Also, thank you to Jeremy Malvin, aka Chrome Sparks, for making that synth music that you hear in the very beginning of every single show. Thank you to Theo Krantz for editing multiple episodes

and putting up with me calling you Theo number two. I'm sorry, it gets very confusing having two Theo's editing the show. Thank you to Rose City Band, the jacuzzi boys, the reds, pinks, and purples, the OCs, and all the bands that have let me use their music on the show over the years. Thank you to my now wife, Chelsea, for generally putting up with me, believing in me, and being down to get married to a guy whose only job is hosting a paranormal podcast that makes a negative amount of money. Thank you for being willing to do that and believing in me. Thank you to my captain Merlin for sitting next to me every time I do an interview, including some of the scary, ones that I've done. He's always right there by my side. Thank you to Phoebe Wilson, Ben Goldberg, and Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. Thank you to Eddie, Gabe, and Kai from Range. Nick and Duncan from

Orienteer. Thank you to Fernando Miranda, Josh Chittarela, Sidu, and Dr. Galal. Thank you to Hesoddeni, Matt Crowdsrunk, Lily West. Thank you to Lindsay Underwood, Taylor Lorenz, Evan Gilbert Katz. Thank you to Adam Baz and Sam Russell for letting me use your owl and some Goats. Thank you to Wendy and her whole family. And thank you to all the patrons of Otherworld. And thank you to anybody else I'm forgetting. Once again, thanks to all of the listeners. This is just the beginning. This show is not easy to make. It's very time consuming and scary at times. The only reason we do it is because people seem to really like it. So thank you sincerely for tuning in and supporting the show. It's been incredible to watch it grow. It's kind of hard to

believe, but honestly, I cannot wait to see where things are going to go from here. Like I said, we're going to take a quick break. We're going to be back on July 10th. Stay tuned for that, and you've been listening to Otherworld.