Otherworld - Episode 73: Pastor Kyle

Episode Date: March 11, 2024

A Presbyterian Pastor named Kyle is forced to reckon with his own beliefs and skepticism when something bizarre happens to his girlfriend. Want more episodes? For bonus episodes and videos, sign up for the Otherworld Patreon Check out our Merch Follow us on: Instagram, TikTok, Twitter If you have experienced something paranormal or unexplained, email us your story at [e-mail] To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to Otherworld. I'm your host, Jack Wagner. This episode is a story that I actually came across in person. In a setting that I really did not expect to be hearing a paranormal story, this requires a little setup. My sister and I are about as different as two people can be from each other. And a couple years ago, she came over and told me that she started dating a Presbyterian pastor. When I heard this, I think I was mostly just confused. I'm not sure why.

It was just strange to me. I mean, dating a pastor. I guess I never considered that pastors date. Maybe I thought they just spawn on earth married and ordained, you know? Anyway, unexpected, but he turned out to be a great guy. And it's been interesting getting to know him, especially given my line of work. He knows like everything there is to know about the history of all religions. He has a master's and doctorate degree.

So at holidays, I basically just ask him insane questions all night. My sister is now engaged to this pastor, and they were having a little party at a brewery in Los Angeles. When I showed up, I didn't know anyone, so I struck up a conversation with the guy next to me. and it turned out this guy is also a pastor. He asked me what I did, and I kind of didn't want to tell him

that I hosted a paranormal show. I wasn't sure what he would think, but I told him, and to my surprise, he was very interested. And that's when the other pastor comes over and says, dude, did you tell him your story? You've got to tell him. Obviously, I'm interested,

and he tells me basically a very short version of the story you're about. to hear. And I immediately knew that I wanted to interview him about it, or at least hear it again later on when we weren't in a loud brewery. Listen, I'm sure there are listeners with all different opinions on religion in general, let alone Christianity, but I think everyone's really going to like this one. I love hearing stories from all different perspectives, and I honestly hope we get more stories in the future from other faiths and religions. So if there's any rabbis or monks or imams listening right now by chance, do not hesitate to email the show if you've experienced

something paranormal. With that being said, let's get this episode started. This is episode 73. The title is Pastor Kyle, and you're listening to Otherworld. Bobby, at its core of the science, you can't argue with. I'm worried about all of a sudden. It's almost frustrating that it's happening. I'm going to die up. Its limbs were just like wrong. Everybody moves back into the light, even if it takes them a minute.

Hello? Hello. Thanks for picking up. I just wanted to ask you about your friend, the pastor, who I'm going to interview for this story. Yeah. What can you say about him? him. I mean, just like general character. Yeah, you're the only pastor I know besides him now. So I don't know. I've never, I've not had a pastor tell a paranormal story in the show before. So I don't have

any reference. Oh, yeah. Kyle's great. He has been through a lot of stuff. Um, I think, I mean, in the sense, a lot of, a lot of people have been through a lot of stuff. But he's kind of like had a lot of, like, a lot of experiences. And so I, I think, and he's not the kind of guy who, Like, I take him very seriously. He would not make stuff up. And so whenever he will tell me a story, like, I've heard this story, and it seems wild. And I don't know how to take it, but he is not the kind of person who would make up a story or see it. Like, he's very much kind of a skeptic about bullshit.

And so, yeah, to hear someone like Kyle tell a story like this, it makes it hard. for me to not believe it because he's he's very realistic and consistent with with reality. Yeah, I mean, I guess it was just surprising to me to be getting this. Like, I'm sure every pastor and priest is very different from each other in terms of what they believe, but I wasn't sure what you believed or what most of them believed in terms of the paranormal. I mean, there is a lot of wild stuff in the Bible with like demons, things like that, but I wasn't sure if you guys believed in that literally or believed in it at all or what,

you know, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, not so much. I think that it's, it makes it pretty exciting. There's a lot of pastors that kind of talk more about the devil than they talk about Jesus. And then there's a lot of folks that are kind of like me and maybe like Kyle that would say a lot of the demons and stuff you see in the Bible are really like euphemisms for like epilepsy or bipolar disorder or things like that that we. now have a name for, but back in the ancient world in first century Palestine, if someone starts having a seizure, you think they're possessed. So you just say that's a demon. And I think

that they're more kind of more accurate descriptions of it nowadays. I'm a little on the fence about demons proper. I think it generally, we have more scientific explanations for it. But what what Kyle described is not something that can be easily explained away by just a modern medical diagnosis. So I didn't know how to take it when he told me. And even when he told me the first time, he was like, yeah, I wouldn't. It was kind of like if I wasn't there, I wouldn't believe it too. And it was, it was very interesting. And yeah, like I said, he's not the kind of person to tell weird stories or to have things that don't have some kind of rational explanation to them. And this one kind of, I think, dumbfounded us both. And did you know the other people in this story? Did you know there's a

girl in the story? Did you have for me, the girl? I met her before. Yeah. I didn't know her like really well, because he dated her for a while. And she seemed normal. So like it wasn't, when he explained it, I was like, and she was kind of like a little, she wasn't like super exuberant or like outgoing, certainly not the kind of person that you would expect, even if this were some kind of dramatic episode or putting on a play or something like that. You wouldn't expect it from this person.

She seemed pretty like just a quiet person. Okay, that is very interesting. Thank you so much for the info. I'm going to get to the story, but I'm excited about this one. I'm glad I'm glad I heard it. I did not expect to be finding an other world story at that bar. I also, I'm so glad that you guys just kind of randomly start talking to each other at the brewery. And then that that conversation came out. Like that it's so, like I said, it's the kind of story that we kind of make fun of when we hear other religious people talk about stuff like that. So I was very excited that he was willing to share it because it is a it's a wild story. And I'm glad that you just kind of were you guys were in the right place, the right time to share that story with each other. My name is Kyle and I am a Presbyterian pastor at a small church in Los Angeles.

My dad was a Presbyterian pastor. My grandpa was a Presbyterian pastor. And I never wanted to be a pastor. but as I grew up and as I exited college and as I moved overseas to Germany and just kept learning more and more about my faith, I really felt like I wanted to at least study the Bible because I thought the Bible was so interesting and so influential. And then when I moved to California to go to what's called seminary, which is where you study to become a pastor, even though I didn't want to become a pastor, I just felt like I really enjoyed getting to come alongside people in their life, in their faith. I liked being a part of a faith

community, and I really liked studying the Bible, and eventually I just felt this growing comfort, I guess, in my heart with the idea of being a pastor. I didn't want to be a pastor because I felt, I felt like there were a lot of other things I was interested in. I majored in theater, in undergrad, as well as German. To be honest, I think also I always felt like the life of a pastor was kind of a grind. Getting people to feel to me like it was just about getting people to come to church and putting on a good sort of performance church service and all that kind of stuff. But that's not to say that I didn't have faith. I always had faith. And I'm actually also recovering a alcoholic. And so at some point, really kind of my alcoholism and my drinking and my smoking kind

of eclipsed my faith for a season. But through like working the 12 steps, I found myself coming back to it. But I always felt like I had a, in contrast to other people that I saw, I felt like I had a very rational approach to faith. In sort of the Christian world, we talk about the idea of apologetics, where there is this sort of rational defense of. of why you believe what you believe, not because of profound supernatural experiences, not because, you know, I took peyote at Joshua Tree and I saw God or something like that,

but because we have this Bible and the Bible makes sense to us and as we try to put the teachings of the Bible into practice, it feels it seems like our lives go better. And so that was sort of the bedrock of my faith, was just like intellectualism, rationalism. In our tradition, In addition, Presbyterians believe something called Reformed Theology, which is sort of

pushes back against Catholicism in some ways, but also avoids sort of what we would call the over-emotionalism of like more charismatic Pentecostal faiths, even Baptists and non-denominational churches that have a lot of emotions, stuff like that. We, we tend to, as I said, be very sort of rational and intellectual. Presbyterians are famous for their building and supporting schools and institutes of higher learning. And so there are a lot of things in the Bible that have to do with the supernatural, right?

From miracles in the Old Testament, the parting of the Red Sea, Noah's Ark, fire coming down from heaven, that kind of thing, all the way up to the New Testament, from the miracles that Jesus performs, turning water into wine, taking a couple loaves of bread and a couple of fish feeding 5,000 people walking on water and of course, you know, being murdered on by crucifixion

and then coming back from the dead. You know, these supernatural stories are sort of at the heart of our faith. And yet in our reformed theology and our tradition, we don't really focus on that that much. And even, you know, there's things like Jesus wrestling with demons and that kind of stuff. in the Gospels. But it's just sort of like, oh, this is teaching us sort of a lesson about how you can put your trust in Jesus and not really something specifically about like spiritual warfare, which is something that people in other Christian traditions tend to emphasize much more than we do.

So even though I believed these things were true on one level because they're in the Bible, they didn't really, they weren't important to me at all. thought about them, I didn't emphasize them. And to be honest, whenever someone would talk about something like, oh, you know, the demons are making me do this thing, or, you know, my cousin is being oppressed or possessed by the devil or something like that. I'd be a little bit like, yeah, I think he just has mental illness, you know. I think he's just a bad person, right? I think as far as my thoughts about good and evil, I think I never really emphasize this, and I still don't today emphasize, see all struggles in the world, see all things through a lens of it's evil.

It's either evil at work or it's good at work, that everything is somehow a reflection of this cosmic struggle, between the capital G good and the capital E evil, that everything is either Satan or God. To be honest, I have always really liked horror movies, scary movies, but I never really believe that any of that stuff is real. I never believed in ghosts, really. You know, maybe as a kid, sort of thrilled me the idea, but I never really believed in ghosts.

Like anybody, I get a little chill sometimes when I walk into a room and I go to a dark room at night and I go to turn the light on and the light switch isn't working. There's a little something something, right? But I'm not like, oh, there's a ghost or a demon or something like that in here. And even when I would see someone, you know, I worked with, I've worked a lot in my life with people who are unhoused and, you know, a lot of people on the street wrestle with mental illness and that kind of stuff. And when someone would sort of be talking about, you know, they have these voices or these demons inside of them, you know, Satan is telling me to do blah, blah, blah. I always was.

And still, for the most part, am like, yeah, no, you're. just mentally ill. How can I help you? So, yeah, I would say I don't really, never believed in it. You know, I think probably my disbelief in anything spiritual, supernatural, demons, spiritual warfare, that kind of stuff, is probably not helped by all of the sort of sensational churches out there that, you know, do exorcisms with, you know, the pastors like laying his hand on people or, you know, and they're being.

being slain in the spirit, which isn't an exorcism. It's like a good thing happening then, but then also like, surprise, surprise is often coupled with a huge monetary ask every, you know, 10 or 15 minutes, right? It just felt so manipulative and like a show that was being put on. I was like, this isn't real, you know. Especially, I guess I would say, for someone who like is a Christian, you know, part of what we believe as in Christianity is like when you become a follower of Jesus. You know, if you're baptized and have sort of decided to follow Jesus, like,

his Holy Spirit comes in you in such a way that you no longer, like, are influenced by evil. You know, you may do bad things, but you're not going to get possessed, you know, you have the Holy Spirit in you. So when I was in seminary, at one point I had a roommate, and my roommate was this very sort of scientific hands-on guy. He had gone to one of the California Polytechnic of polytechnical schools and built bikes from scratch and had actually right after college gone to Sudan in Africa where he had been working with a Christian organization there. He was a Christian, but his function there was to build wells, build water wells for people there.

And that's what he did. He wasn't there to teach or evangelize or anything. He was there building wells because he's an engineer. right and he would tell me these stories i remember one time specifically he was just kind of really kind of hesitantly at first because he wasn't sure how i would take it but he started telling me about you know while he was there in sudan uh living you know in a village he would witness the christian pastors there pretty regularly almost routinely performing exorcisms and for his sort of analytical engineer mind,

he thought it was fascinating how they had such sort of a regimented approach towards it. And, you know, as an engineer, you sort of have to be skeptical and looking for the problems or the cracks in the foundation, you know, and he came away from that experience feeling like, what was going on was, I had trouble disproving it or feeling like it wasn't real, you know. And what he would tell me is that people in the village would bring someone who was possessed to a pastor, and the pastor would pray for them to try to exercise the demon. And sometimes it would be just all it would take was one time. And sometimes they had to bring these individuals to the pastor multiple times over the course of weeks or months

and have the pastor consistently pray before the person would eventually be, as they called it, as we call it, delivered. that this evil spirit that was, quote, unquote, oppressing them would finally leave them. And he told me this interesting phrase, you know, I was kind of interested. I like horror movies, that kind of stuff. So, you know, I'm kind of entertained by this, interested that this engineer mind guy sort of caught up by this, by this, you know, side show in these African villages. And I say, well, what did he say? He said, well, he would say a bunch of different things.

but one thing he would always kind of say to get it started when they would bring someone is he would say, if there's any evil spirit oppressing this person, then in the name of Jesus Christ, I command you to reveal yourself to me. My friend said what would happen is that the person would begin to manifest signs of the oppression, speaking in other voices, growling, shaking, falling on the ground. And that would sort of begin the process of that day's exorcism. the pastor would be praying over this person and saying other things. But that was sort of always the way to kind of get it started as he would say that. The pastors in these villages that were performing

these exorcisms, they weren't freaked out by this. And it was not part of like a money-making thing. And it didn't seem to be like a power grab, you know. They felt like this is what it means to be a person in the world trying to follow Jesus is that from time to time this kind of thing is going to happen. But we don't get worried. We just do what we've been taught. And eventually, this evil spirit is going to leave this person because we have the ultimate good on our side. You know, I remember feeling like a little bit of when you would share this with me like, oh, wow, that's cool. That's so cute that you thought all that was real. It's easy to maybe kind of whip people up into a religious frenzy sometimes. Maybe these are people who,

who are experiencing schizophrenia. You know, a lot of the descriptions in the Bible of people who are experiencing oppression by an unclean spirit against, again, that's kind of the language. The symptoms sound a lot like someone having an epileptic seizure. So I think I would have said, probably it's just people with mental illness and or epilepsy in these villages that, you know,

they're being healed through people having a, attention and eyes on care, you know, and the praying and that kind of stuff is maybe helpful in some sort of general spiritual way, but it's not necessarily curing exactly what's going on with these folks, hence why they have to, some of them have to keep coming back, right? I remember sort of dismissing it as quickly as it came. So at the time that I had this roommate, I also had a girlfriend, and my girlfriend was a Christian, and she had recently moved to pass. Pasadena for us to be together from another state. We would say we had a pretty good relationship.

She was a Christian. She was a strong Christian. I looked up to her faith. She had been a leader in other Christian circles. She led to women's Bible study in college and this kind of stuff. And we went to church together regularly. I was working as a pastor at a Presbyterian church in the San Fernando Valley at the time, not the one I'm currently at.

and pretty normal Christian girlfriend, you know, by all accounts. I will say that she had, she had some trauma in her past. And she also was experiencing some symptoms of depression. It would be times that she was, you know, depressed in this deep, you know, bad mood, really sad. And it was hard for me to snap her out of it. And we actually at one point had begun kind of talking to a therapist for her and trying to, she was getting some talk therapy and hadn't yet gotten on any kind of medication, but we're talking about like, hey, you know, we got to get signed up for health care here in

California so that you can maybe get some care. And she was kind of hemming and hawing about it. But her depression was kind of getting, was beginning to get in the way of our relationship. one night she was having a bad kind of bout of depression and really just feeling down in the dumps. And I went over to her apartment and I was sitting with her and she had roommates but they weren't there and we were sitting on the couch and she was crying and just feeling so low and kind of down on herself. And I'm trying to comfort her and be a good boyfriend and so. So I suggested, you know, I'll call her Sarah. I said, Sarah, why don't I just pray for you?

Can I pray for you? It's not uncommon for us to pray for each other. It's a pretty regular thing. So she sort of acknowledges like, okay. And I just start praying for her. God helps Sarah to come out of this depression, remind her that you love her, you know, help her to feel about herself the way that I do, the way that other people do.

Just praying for her. And I could just tell, you know, I'm rubbing her back and I could tell that like it's not working. She's still feeling really sad. She's kind of like getting a little bit weepy. And I'm like, a little exasperated. This is not the first night that we've gone through something like this. You know, my sort of self-centeredness as a boyfriend is like, you know, I don't, I can't keep going through this with this person. So at one point I was like, you know, Sarah, maybe you.

you could, could you, why don't you pray? You know, why don't you just call out to God, ask for, ask for help? And she started kind of trying to pray. And then I was like, you know, why don't you just say Jesus' name, say Jesus, I need your help, you know? In the Bible, it talks about, you know, there's power in the name of Jesus that sometimes just saying the name of Jesus is, has power in and of itself, you know, I'm sort of like grass. for straws here, right? I kind of want to get her back in a good mood and watch TV and go home. I got class the next day, right?

So she starts to pray, and then she's like, kind of has her mouth open. Like, she's trying to say something, but the words won't come out. And I'm like, just sit, like, I feel like she's putting this on or something like that. And I'm just like, just say, Jesus. Jesus help me. She's like, I can't. And I'm like, can't or won't, you know. And she's like, I can't. I can't say it. It won't come out. And I'm like, yes, it will. Like, just say Jesus. And she's like, and she's kind of almost like gagging a little bit. And she's like, I can't say his name. And she's beginning to kind of like almost give signs of choking. she's like breathing, so I'm like, she's not choking. What's going on? I said, Sarah, what's going on?

And she says, there's something in my throat. There's like something in my throat. It won't let me say it. And I remember kind of taking a pause and being like, wait a minute, what is going on here? Is she just like being super dramatic or is there something else going on? And if something else, what is it? that something else. So I'm asking her to say the name of Jesus and she has her mouth open and almost like, kind of like if you had something caught in the back of your throat, how you would kind of like

try to hawk it out. She's straight, she's got her face forward a little bit and she's squinting her eyes and then opening her eyes wide in a little bit of like surprise and and kind of sticking her tongue out like she's trying to cough something up and just saying like, like there's something in my throat with sort of a strained voice. I know there's nothing in her throat. We haven't eaten or drunk anything. So I'm exasperated. I'm frustrated. I'm feeling a little bit at a loss. I don't know that I'm feeling a whole lot of compassion because, as I said, we've sort of gone through this before. But this is new.

This is someone who always would pray before. Someone who would suggest praying before I would. I've never been in a situation where someone said, I'm trying to say something to God about God. I'm trying to say the name of Jesus, and I can't. Like something that's not my mind, that's not my will, that's nothing that I can put my finger on is stopping me from doing it.

And so this, all of a sudden, this is totally outside of my realm of expertise or experience. This is something I've never experienced before, never even heard of before. And I'm in, so I'm in totally new territory. And that's when sort of I felt my mind kind of empty a little bit. And the lack of compassion, the exasperation, the frustration, all of a sudden is just like gone.

And I'm fully present. And I'm like, something else is happening right here. And I have no idea what it is. Oh, my God. Is this like what like spirit oppression looks like? That an quote unquote unclean spirit from, you know, from the Gospels is right here with me in this living room. in Los Angeles in the 21st century. Is this happening right now?

Probably not, right? Maybe, like, she's whipped up into some sort of spiritual frenzy. Maybe this is something that, like, happens with depression. And it's like, I don't know what to do now. Like, what do I do, you know? And if it's not real, if she's putting it on, how can I snap her out of this? Like, stop it. Like, stop.

And if it is real, I'm totally out of my depth here, right? And the conversation with my roommate about exorcisms in villages in Sudan comes into my mind. I'm like, oh my God, is this, like, is this how it goes down? Like, is this what it looks like? and even as I thought of it, I think I was like, this is silliness. But I've got to do something. And it seems really almost like silly. And I can't even believe, like, maybe these words are going to come out of my mouth.

But I think maybe I'm just going to try saying what my. my roommate had told me that these Sudanese Christian pastors had said to these, you know, folks in a faraway country where they believe in demons and spirits and stuff like that. Maybe I'll just say it. And if I say it and nothing happens, then, you know, which is what's going to happen, I'm going to say it, nothing's going to happen. And then I'll be able to see, like, then at least I'll be able to be like, okay, that's not what's happening. And then we can get on with it and I can, you know, find an exit from this uncomfortable prayer evening with my girlfriend.

So I just out loud with my hand sort of on her back. And we're sitting next to each other on the couch. You know, our knees are like touching, right? And my heart starts to beat a little bit faster. You know, I get a little bit of like a tingly. something. I'm like, am I really going to do this? Okay. And so I'm like, if there is any, if there's any evil spirit oppressing Sarah, then in the name of Jesus Christ, I command you to reveal yourself to me. And when I think back on that moment, I'm still surprised at how quickly

these words took effect. You know, I think in, when you see exorcisms in movies or something like that, there's a moment of, you know, the music swells and slowly something starts to happen. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But in my memory, this was several years ago now, but, you know, it's a pretty, pretty solid memory in there, carved into my brain. If there's any evil spirit oppressing Sarah and in the name of

Jesus Christ I command you to reveal yourself to me and right away she starts to growl like this low rumble that kind of crescendos

and and I took my hand off for back you know and I leaned away just like fro and she, her legs stretched out in front of her, and her butt, like, slid off the couch. And she arched her back. And as she arched her, you know, she sat back.

And as she arched her back, her butt slides off the couch. And her legs are sticking out straight in front of her. And she slides off of the couch backwards, making this growling sound. all the way down so that her body is lying on the ground, but her head is still like, you know, her chin is on her chest because her head is like up against the foot of the couch.

You know, and so she's not lying with her head on the ground, but with her head, like her chin on her chest. Her eyes are kind of closed and then open, but her eyes are rolling back behind her eyelids. So I'm seeing like the whites of her eyes and she's growling and her arms are not at her sides and not up by her face

but sort of in the middle and she's shaking or she's like vibrating not convulsing like you know like you know the exorcist bed or something like that but she's just like vibrating

and she's growling and she's down on the ground and I'm just frozen the two things that I remember most clearly about that moment is first the floodgate that was holding back all of this belief or the recognition of the reality of everything supernatural, of the idea of there is a spirit world. Even on some deeper level, the idea that there is a God, there is a devil, there is

spirit, there is a spiritual world, there is something beyond what we can perceive with our five senses. There is a reality that is described in the Bible that is not just a story, that is true in a way that demands our attention and that if accepted as true, has the potential to change everything about the way we see everything. I didn't even realize, but there was like a floodgate holding those truths back

somewhere in my mind or maybe in my heart, in my soul, right? And it just opens. In that moment, I'm like, oh, my God, it's all true. like this is not just movie stuff this is like real stuff and right behind that is like that means that means there's a real god you know i've been a christian my whole life i'm working as a pastor but you know you can believe things on different levels and on a certain level i still had like significant like you know this probably isn't real but now it's like nope this is real Jesus, the Holy Spirit, angels, you know, this is all real.

And the second thing that I felt immediately is peace. I was not afraid. Which doesn't have anything to do with me like being, you know, like an iron will, brave person. Like, if I go into a room, like I said, at night and it's dark and I flip on the light switch and the light doesn't work, like I get sweaty palms immediately. And I'm like rushing for like I'm not like a very brave person, but I felt this outside of myself sense of calm. Almost like as if I didn't feel this sensation, but it is the same sensation that would happen if you were a child and you walked into a haunted house and you were terrified. And your dad just like wrapped his arms around you and said, oh, don't worry. It's none of this is.

It can't hurt you. That's what I felt. I'm sitting there watching my girlfriend convulse, shake on the floor, and growl like a demon, and her eyes in the back of her head based off of me just telling the demon in the name of Jesus to show me that it was there, and it listened, and it's doing it, and I'm not feeling fear. and to me that is like as miraculous, as supernatural as the very fact of what is happening with her. How could I, how could this be happening and I'm, and I feel totally serene? All right, we have to take a quick break, but we'll be right back.

She stands up and goes and walks over to the corner of the room and just stands in the corner of the room. and just stands in the corner of the room facing the corner. I see her standing in the corner and almost like a power outside of myself. I stand up and I walk over to her and I put my hands on her shoulders. She's not shaking anymore, but she's like gone. She's not communicating. She's not talking. I say, Sarah.

I'm going to take you to see my roommate now. And she doesn't respond. She doesn't nod. She doesn't do anything. Her head is forward a little bit. Her head is down, like her chin on her chest, and her arms are her side. And she's not rigid, but she's just unresponsive,

staring straight at the ground. And so I put my arm around her shoulder, and she lets me lead her out to my Chevy Cobalt. I put her in the passenger seat, and she just sits there staring straight down at her feet. And I go and sit in the seat next to her. And I drive back to my apartment. It's like 3.30 a.m.

Once she went into this sort of, of catatonic state. She did not change at all. Her whole demeanor was kind of like a pouting child. She, it wasn't just like a blank look. It was a look like almost like a child that you told them, you can't have another scoop of ice cream. Not a super exaggerated frown, but just a little bit like,

like oh they're pouting pouty and just staring straight down at the ground um and again I remember feeling like

this is so weird that this is happening I feel serene it was only about a 10 minute drive and she just sat there not saying anything and I didn't talk to her I remember like once I told her like, let's get in the car and go, I just loaded her in the car.

And I didn't say, no one said a word. You know, if we had been pulled over by a cop for running a stop sign or something like that, he would have just looked in and been like, oh, this couple just had some kind of fight or something like that. Other than the fact that she was just like pouting and staring and not saying anything, there was no outward sign of anything that had just transpired. I bring her into the living room, I turn on all the lights, and I set her on the couch. And it's sort of like I'm on autopilot. I'm not, I'm not necessarily feeling anxious.

I'm not, I'm not feeling afraid. I'm just like doing what needs to be done next. and I go into my roommate's room and I wake him up. I say, hey, sorry to wake you up. Could you come out into the living room because Sarah is here and I need you to pray with me for her. I think she's being oppressed by an unclean spirit. And he just is very tough. tired, but I remember he just sort of like gets up as if I asked him like, hey, can you come help me,

you know, bring in some groceries? He's like, oh, yeah, okay. And comes out into the living room with me, you know, sort of slowly waking up. And I remember getting a little bit of the feeling from him like, oh, do I have to do this right now? And so he sits on her left and I sit down on her right next to her. and she's just still kind of staring. I brief him real quick what happened, and he just starts praying for her. What he's praying is that you will loosen whatever is in her throat that is stopping her from saying your name.

I'm praying in the name of Jesus that this demon should release its hold on Sarah, that it should leave her. She was bought with the blood of Jesus. She belongs to Jesus, and you have no claim over her. And so in Jesus' name, I command you to leave Sarah alone. I remember his prayer was very gentle, and it was very much like speaking to a child. It was intimate.

it. And it was, you know, in a way, it wouldn't fit in some movie about an exorcism, you know, where they're like saying, the power of Christ compels you. I demand in the name of Jesus that you leave this woman alone. There was none of that. It was more just like, Sarah, God loves you, and you belong to the Lord. And whatever power is oppressing her, then I am letting you know that this woman belongs to Jesus. You have no hold on her. You need to leave her. And so in Jesus' name, I command you to leave Sarah alone.

And I don't remember at one point it happened, but all of a sudden she begins to just like wail and weep. And it's like she's back. She's not happy. She's really sad and upset, but she's like back. It was almost like she was melting slowly back. into herself over the course of maybe two minutes. And as she started to sort of come back to herself, the only real indication was that she was like relaxing her body,

this stiffness and, as I said, beginning to cry. And that goes on for a little while. Then she stops crying and he like is patting her on the back. And it's like, so do you feel anything? You know, can you say Jesus' name? She's like, yes, I can say Jesus' name. Like, it's whatever it was, it's gone. He's like, okay, I'm going to go back to bed.

But he gets up and just goes back to bed. And I remember I just sat there with her for a while. And the rest of my memory of that night is just blank. I don't remember if I took her home. I don't remember what happened. But the release, one of the strange things that we never spoke about it again. After we broke up, maybe four or five months later,

we were talking about trying to get together. And I was like, I just don't, there's stuff in our relationship that didn't work. Like, we never spoke about that night. And what happened? How did we never talk about that? Why did we never talk about that? And she didn't have anything to say to that.

And that was, I think, basically the last time I ever spoke to her. As I think about the story now, it is like one of the strangest parts of this whole story is the fact that we went through this very real, very traumatic thing. And we never talked about it again. I don't even know if she remembers what happened. I don't know because we just never talked about it again. And I think if I'm honest, even though I said that in the moment I felt very serene and at peace, which is true, I think afterwards I was afraid. It was so scary objectively that I think maybe I thought if I bring this up again, maybe it's going to like summon this evil back or or just like, you know, when you're in a relationship and there was some awkward, awful thing that has. you're like, I don't want to bring this thing up.

You know, I don't want to create drama. But there was another level of like, gosh, that was really frightening. I don't think I don't think I'm ready to talk about that. After then, I really felt like there is something, there's something up with her that she really needs help that I can't give. I've heard people talk about how, how trauma in a person's life, abuse, things like that, can open a person up to the demonic,

can open a person up to control from an evil power. The wound that happens with trauma and abuse can be like a soul wound. It's not just your body or your mind. It's like even deeper than that, and that crack that happens is like the place where then evil, even if you're a believer, even if you're a Christian, even if you're a Jesus follower, that crack becomes a place where evil can get in and take root. You know, none of this is scientific. None of it is even really backed up by the Bible, which is sort of like the foundation of everything

we try to believe and go back to and hold it against. But I'll tell you what, if in my experience since then with other people, it really seems like there's something there of this idea that the extreme stress and sadness and fear makes a person vulnerable to the other stuff that is out there. Let's say, for example, that it is sort of something like a soul wound that makes a person vulnerable, right? Like, let's say that you get a gash on your leg, you know, and then bacteria gets in there. It gets infected. It gets infected. right? Well, you can take antibiotic that will kill the infection, but if you're not healing up the external wound and it's still open, it's going to get infected again. I think that the infection

went away. I never saw that come back, but I don't think that wound has ever been healed. I guess, you know, whenever I share this story with people, I want to make sure that people know that, like, I am aware of the other explanations for what could have been going on, you know, and I'm not like so close-minded about them. Like, that wasn't it? Like, dude, maybe that is it. But in the moment that it felt 100%, this is an invisible, metaphysical, evil presence. that has a personality that is asserting control over this person that I care about.

And it is terrifying. I think this has made me less afraid because of even though I became aware of this thing that is much more worthy of fear than most of what I would say I'm afraid of, you know. But seeing how there were tools to combat this thing and that they had an effect and that I, through using the name of Jesus, was able to command this thing to do what I wanted as unexperienced as I was, makes me have confidence in the face of that fear. Does that make sense? I think the way that this has affected me over the years since it happened is that it is that it is, that it is. is like a touch point of like the proof of the fact that all this stuff that we do in church and all this praying and all this God, good, evil, spiritual stuff that we talk about.

I sort of like have this like little roof in my pocket that when I'm going through times of doubt, when I'm sort of wondering, you know, is God really there? I like pull this out and I remember like whatever else I may be feeling right now, about the existence of all this stuff, I cannot ever deny that that really happened that way. And as much as I may try to explain it away as a symptom of mental illness or some random one-time seizure or something like that, just the deepest part of me tells me, no, no, no, no, no, no. This was the curtain got pulled back for you. And you got to see a reality that is all around us all the time.

time which we don't get to taste as much as we might hope, or in this case, you know, would not want to partake in. So it, I would be lying if I said, I think about this every day or every Sunday when I'm preaching at church, but it does from time to time, strangely, encourage me when I'm doubting. All right. Thank you so much to Pastor Kyle for telling us that story. And also thank you to my future brother-in-law, Tyler, for bringing me the story and helping me along the way.

You know, obviously, there is no specific religious angle or any angle for that matter when it comes to other world. But I loved hearing this story and how to it affected his personal faith. I think the variety of perspectives we get on this show are all pieces in a big puzzle. And I truly hope we get more stories like this. I love this one so much, you know. I feel like on the other world, we're usually hearing from a person who is very skeptical, a non-believer of the spirit world that suddenly face to face with something that challenges their lack of belief. And then with this one, it's the exact opposite. This is a person who

dedicated his life to faith, but even within that, he struggles with questions. And, you know, I think as a not very religious person myself, when I hear a pastor being in a story, I kind of expected to end with some kind of moral lesson, you know. And I love that with this one, I could tell he's still scratching his head over what exactly it means and what exactly happened. But I do think the experience affected him in a profound way for the better. And that's really all that matters, no matter what you believe about it. This has been episode 73. The title is Pastor Kyle, and you've been listening to Otherworld.

Otherworld is executive produced and hosted by myself, Jack Wagner. Our theme song is by Coburman. The soundtrack of this episode is by Juice Jackal and North Americans. This episode was edited by Theo Krantz and engineered by Theo Schaefer. Our artwork is by Coltysak Studios. Production help by Nikki Kate Delgado and Haley Pearson. Please show us your support by subscribing, leaving a five-star review, and telling your friends. If you want to hear bonus episodes of Otherworld, you can become a patron at patreon.com

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