Otherworld - Episode 95: Kwomais Point

Episode Date: October 7, 2024

Steve grew up just north of the border in British Columbia and spent a lot of time in the surrounding parks, but he never saw anything out of the ordinary until one night when he took his dog on a walk with his friends and saw something he couldn't explain staring at him from behind the foliage. Check out our Merch Follow us on: Instagram, TikTok, Twitter For business inquiries contact: [e-mail] If you have experienced something paranormal or unexplained, email us your story at [e-mail] To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to Otherworld. I'm your host, Jack Wagner. This story is from somebody named Steve, and it takes place in a kind of unique location, right on the border of the United States and Canada on the west coast, pretty much as close to the U.S. border as you can right along the water. Steve, who you're about to hear from, is a software engineer, and the type of person who would not normally be open to believing the type of thing, that he ended up witnessing himself. In fact, I think he still struggles

with comprehending it to this day. Steve's story is one of my favorite types of stories, which is one where a person is just kind of moving through their day, a day that probably would have otherwise been unremarkable, a day that they would have just completely forgotten about, and then suddenly, out of nowhere, they come face to face with something that they cannot explain. In Steve's case, him and his friends were strolling through a park on this particular night,

strumming an acoustic guitar, and walking a dog. I will let Steve take it from here. This is episode 95. The title is Cuamas Point, and you're listening to Otherworld. Is this Bobby? Yes, it is. At its core, the science you can't argue with it. I'm sorry about it's up in the sky.

It's almost frustrating that is happening. I'm literally, I'm going to die. I'm going to die. It's limbs were just like, wrong. Everybody moves back into the night, even if it takes them ahead. Steve? I'm 33 now, and yeah, I grew up in just right north of the border, the American border, in British Columbia.

I grew up doing a lot of, I guess, fun activities in the forest. Across the street from my house, where I grew up, there was a lot of trees. a lot of parks. BC is known for parks and trees and all that fun stuff. So, yeah, I would say, like, my childhood was marked with a lot of outdoor exploration and fun. Never anything really supernaturally happened. I sort of believed in ghosts.

I think that as a kid, it's pretty easy to believe in stuff. But as you grow up, you maybe lose. lose that. You think it's silly or whatever. So, yeah. I build software for a living. I didn't really know what I wanted to do for a long time. And then I just sort of fell into the software realm.

So I would maybe say that's partially why, in some ways, I'm wary to share this story because I feel like, you know, any type of science-related field, you just don't want to really cast a whole lot of doubt on what you believe and you should believe in science and all this stuff, which I do. But I don't know, maybe we just haven't explored or seen everything yet. Yeah, what does that phrase mean to you, believe in science? What does that even mean? I think just believe in what you can see or observe or measure in some way.

And so I think with stuff like the paranormal, whether it's like the countless stories that you've had on your podcast or you hear about from friends or family, it just sort of seems like, you know, it's just a fairy tale. Like you just don't really, you're not supposed to take it seriously. If you, you know, believe in that. You don't take me seriously, Steve? No, absolutely not.

Yeah, no, I think that was the thing that caught my attention about this podcast was I always thought, you know, that this stuff didn't exist once I became an adult. And then this thing happened to me. And it's always been in the back of my brain. And so then a friend sent this podcast to me saying, hey, check out Otherworld. and I started listening and I haven't really stopped listening. So there you go. This happened, I would say, in 2012, 2013. It was a summer break between years of university.

And I was with my two friends, Mark and Ethan. And we were hanging out at this rental that my parents were renting when we were transitioning from one house that we owned to a different one and we didn't have a place to live for about eight weeks. Mark is a longtime childhood friend. And I grew up with Mark. I remember Mark as soon as I could really remember things. That being said, Mark is six years older than me, and we've just always had some form of friendship, whatever that looked like.

Mark and I both have families that own places on the same lake, and so both of us were able to stay friends over the same. summer or reconnect over the summer every summer. And yeah, Mark and I just have the same sense of humor, the same sensibilities, and just generally enjoyed joking around as our form of hanging out. There's lots of dad jokes, lots of puns. For example, we like came up with a business idea for like having, um, this is so cringe, but like having, a really fancy restaurant on the second floor of a building and have like, you know, fancy food, cocktails,

some jazzy music, this kind of thing. And we would call that restaurant the influence. And then we were going to have like a nameless nightclub right underneath the influence. So when people called for a cab at the end of the night, they would be like, you know, yes, I'm under the influence. Yes, I know, but where are you? I like that.

Over that same summer that this all took place is when we met Ethan and we just became fast friends. We all liked music and that was when we started hanging out with Ethan more. This rental home was this really cute home here in southwestern BC, the Lower Mainland. So this house was sort of just nestled in the trees in the forest, along with a bunch of other homes. It was really cute and quaint and very cozy, but also it got very dark at night, which also sometimes added to the coziness. And other times it just felt a little bit strange. definitely felt like you were removed from the rest of the town and city, for sure.

We were just hanging out. We were just spending time playing music together. And we had this mini Dachshund named Charlie Cute Dog. I was learning some music with them. We were just playing around, just trying to see what I could learn in an evening. and Charlie let me know that he needed to go outside. And so we figured, okay, let's go for a walk. So I put Charlie on his leash,

and we started walking up the street away from the house, up and around the corner towards the park, which is where everything happened. This park was maybe two blocks from the house, that I was living in at the time, and it also got very, very dark at night because of the amount of trees. That being said, there's a really beautiful lookout,

a really beautiful view during sunset. We just decided to walk towards that park. As we're walking to the park, Ethan has my guitar, and we're walking down the street, Ethan is just playing a tune and we pull up to the park

and I notice right away that it's pretty dark. I had never actually been to this park at night and I was sort of concerned about just being able to see. I wasn't scared of anything. I just wasn't sure

if I would literally be able to see the ground in front of me eventually with this dog. And none of us had brought our phones with us or anything so we didn't have the flashlight. We walked along the side of this building and we're pulling up to the actual trailhead into the park. And that was sort of where the last available light on the side of the building was

that was casting sort of a ring of light into the park. It was probably around 10 or 10.30 p.m. And so even in the summer up here where the sunsets at 9.30, it was dark by this point, especially with, again, all of the trees in the forest there.

What's the name of this park? Like, if I were to look it up? It is named Quamis Point Park. It's so close to the border. It's so, so close. You can see the United States from this park. And yeah, it's sort of this park at the top of the hill down to the Pacific Ocean. So the lookout that everyone likes to go to is sort of at the very end of the park.

but the lookout is stunning. As we're walking into the park, we're sort of struggling to see in front of us. I'm a little bit paranoid as a person in terms of my stuff. I don't like damaging my things. And I legitimately was a little bit worried that Ethan would trip and fall with my guitar

as he walked into the park with us. So we continue to walk into the park. I guess positionally I should describe that I'm maybe five or six paces in front of Mark and Ethan. So I'm further into the park than either of them with Charlie, the dog. And I'm getting very close to the edge of where the... the light finally sort of disappears. It's dark again. Mark and Ethan are still further back in the ring of light.

Suddenly, my dog has the hairs on its spine shoot up. So Charlie stopped entering into the park further. sniffing around and immediately just stopped, looked up at this bigger tree that had these branches that sort of wrapped around and it sort of looked like a bush. But Charlie looks directly at these branches and I don't know what's going on. So I just pause and I look into the forest because I think maybe there's something dangerous there or maybe there's a coyote, a raccoon or a raccoon or honestly, maybe, but highly unlikely in this part of the lower mainland. Maybe a cougar, but I doubt it. And so I look at the branches and the first thing that I see are glinting yellowish eyes.

And I'm not talking about, they were not glowing. I just mean, the light cast off of that building sort of glinted out of these eyes and they were really sort of strangely big eyes and that immediately creeped me out shortly after I see these glinting eyes I see these really long, pale,

elongated, unhuman fingers just sort of grasp over one of the branches. And what I mean by elongated and unnatural is, you know how we have

like three joints in each one of our fingers? It was like they had more joints. Like instead of two joints per finger and a knuckle, you've got maybe four or five. It was really creepy, really, really creepy. And that was sort of the first, maybe second of seeing this creature. I'm thinking what the hell am I seeing?

I don't understand. My brain, quite honestly, could not initially parse what I was looking at. at because it was unlike anything I had ever seen before. And then I thought, okay, maybe it's a monkey. No, it's not a monkey. Why would there be a monkey in the trees or the bush or anything like this? Like there's all this sort of immediate rationalization around what I could possibly be seeing. I was maybe seven to ten feet away from this creature.

Mark and Ethan were probably another six feet behind that. They were close enough to me that, you know, we could all still see the creature. My dogs stood exactly where he was. He was frozen. He did not want to move. He did not want to look away. I did the same. I just stood there for a couple moments

trying to essentially see, did this thing notice me? I think it did because it's peering through this bush. And that's sort of when I start to take in a couple more details about what I'm looking at. I start noticing, okay, it's pretty, short, maybe three feet tall. Like, not very tall at all.

That's why I sort of thought, oh, maybe it's a monkey or something. Maybe it's something like this. In that, you know, split second of trying to rationalize it, it wasn't very big. Three feet tall is pretty big for something you're seeing in a bush, dude. Yeah, I guess what I mean? I'm thinking about it from the perspective of like, if this thing charges at me, I've got Mark, I've got Ethan, I've got this dog, I've got me, and we've got this guitar that we can beat the shit out of this thing with if we really need to.

Like, this is what I'm sort of thinking. Like, okay, maybe we're probably okay, right? But maybe that's me downplaying how serious it could. could be. And it is still pretty big. You're right. It's still pretty big to see a physical form. And maybe it should also be clear. Like there was no shadowy, like ethereal presence about it. It was a physical form. I could see skin and folds and all this sort of thing. Very, very, very pale skin. When I was trying to really process how it really looked, it looked like it didn't have a whole lot of hair on it, almost sort of like what you would see if you Googled Ghalom from

Lord of the Rings. It wasn't furry, it wasn't really hairy, it was pretty frail-ish-looking. or just thin. Again, sort of Gollum-esque. And it was wrinkly. The parts of the arms that I could actually see had sort of folds on it. And the cheeks themselves,

even though they looked sort of hollow, they had sort of this wrinkliness to them. And I wouldn't say it was fully pale, but it does have, or it did, I guess, have little splotches where, I don't know, discoloration on it. The ears were sort of pointed, but not the way that common folklore would describe something like an elf. And then the facial features were more like these giant eyes, sunken cheekbones, where you could almost see the jaw line and the actual cheekbone itself. It had almost these horns or hard hair-like features sticking up. from the top of its head.

You could almost think of it as like ornamental twigs on the top of its head sticking up and sort of slicked back. I don't know if it was hair or if it was some type of ornamental design. This is something that stood out in my mind for years, and it was something that I had no reference of. It didn't know what it was.

It was like the hair was very coarse and you could see the gaps between each of the strands, if you want to call them that, of hair. And when I say slicked back, they went back to the back of the head of this creature. but they didn't fully mat down. They still stood up. That's why I described it

sort of like horns at the same time. I wasn't sure if it was hair or horns or ornamental. Like a hedgehog. Is that a good description? Yeah, that's honestly a pretty good. I would only say that with a hedgehog, their little spines are pretty straight. Whereas these were almost more knotted in the sense of they weren't knotted together,

but the piece of each hair or spine or whatever had little bulbous elements to it, if that makes sense. I don't know if it was fully standing up or if it was sort of crouched over as I stood there and stared at it, it was sort of half exposed. I don't know if I ever saw the torso of the thing. At this point, I think I'm crazy. At this point, I literally am thinking, did I inhale something on the way over here

that I'm unaware of? Is there some type of thing in the air that's making me hallucinate or see something that's not there that the dog is seeing. And so really, this is at this point, this is when I notice that Ethan stopped playing music.

Both Mark and Ethan stopped talking and they stopped walking. And they were also both paused and just standing. And so at this point, this is when

I ask the question, are you guys seeing this? Do you see what I'm seeing? Do you see what the dog is seeing? This is sort of my grounding element, which is I want to know that at least if I'm having some type of hallucination of this thing, that I'm not the only person seeing it. They both confirm that they see something hiding, peering out at us. And I ask, are you seeing these things? Are you seeing glinting eyes? Do you see these elongated fingers? Is that a pale something or other that you see as well?

And they confirm that this is what they're seeing, that essentially we're all seeing the same thing. So at this point, I am pretty creeped out. All of this took place in a matter of maybe 30 seconds or a minute. If I really think about how long it was, it really wasn't a long time. It just felt like forever because you're just trying to make sense of a new reality. I was trying to understand how could this be possible?

How could this be possible that we're seeing something that doesn't have a scientific answer for? We don't know what this thing is. And then the Pacific Northwest is known for Sasquatches. That's not what this is. You know, there's, Had I seen a big hairy gorilla-shaped thing in the forest?

Sure, cool. I know what that is. I would clock it and we'd be having maybe a different discussion here. But I was scared because it was so unknown. I wanted an explanation and I had no explanation. And I think maybe the scary thing was not knowing what to do. What do I do? I was very scared at this point.

It was almost less assuring now that all three of us were seeing the same thing. Because it would have been more comforting in some ways to know that I was just seeing something. It was maybe a trick of the light or something like this. And we could just keep on our merry way. But the fact that all three of us saw it, all three of us were. creeped out. Ethan stopped playing music. And we all just looked at this thing. Ethan was playing a Mumford and Sun's song, which is so cringe now. But at the time, they were like a popular band. So he was playing this Mumford and Sun song. And it was,

I forget which one it was, but, you know, probably one of their more. upbeat, cheerful ones. Was there a point where you were seeing this horrifying creature while there was a Mumford and Sons cover being played on acoustic guitar? I mean, I guess for a split second, because the moment that I noticed the creature, I don't think Ethan noticed the creature as soon as I did because he was further behind me. So there's probably that split second of me being like, what the fuck is that thing? Is that a monkey?

That's not a monkey. Well, some, you know, Mumford and Sons cover is playing. Oh, yeah. I wish I took a photo of it. I didn't have my phone on me. And I didn't, I wasn't into photography at the time. I'm now very much into photography. I wasn't into photography at the time,

so it didn't carry an actual camera, which people who know me now, you can't find me without a camera, which is, I understand, convenient. But like I didn't have my iPhone. Mark and Ethan, they didn't have their phones. Because why would we bring it? This was before any of us really used Instagram.

We barely used Facebook, because Facebook, I think, was sort of on its way out, being cool. We were just hanging out. We were just playing music and taking the dog for a walk. So we just left the phones behind. What would we need it for? We were two blocks away, Max, from home. So we didn't bring it, and so I wasn't able to take a photo of it. It's really unfortunate.

It would be so much easier to just, describe this thing if I could just send it to you and you can just post it on your Instagram or whatever. But unfortunately, that's not the case. At this point, Mark, Ethan, and I were all staring at it. The dog is staring at it. It's, we're all creeped out by what we're seeing. I ask them, how should we leave? And, I believe it was Mark who mentioned why don't we just

walk backwards. Almost immediately we just started walking backwards out of the park staring at this thing and staring at the eyes and

the fingers and just making sure that none of that made a big move. If it did, that would be every man for themselves. But we just exited the park. We were probably about 150 feet into this park. So we had a lot of walking to do backwards to get out of the park.

And as soon as we got into the street where there were the lights and lamps everywhere, we sort of kept our eyes looking at the park, and we actually crossed to the other side of the street from where the park was, because that's where the lights were. And we sort of just kept looking over at the forest to make sure that, I don't know, that it wasn't following us along through the trees that were sort of perimeter to the road.

We walked back in the light as much as we could. The street that this house that I was living at didn't have really any lights on it, unfortunately. So we raced from the road, the main road, down to the house, got into the house, immediately locked the door. And I basically just offered them to sleep on the couches if they wanted to. because essentially I didn't want them to feel like they had to go back out there in the middle of the night and risk seeing that thing again. All right.

We'll be right back after this quick break. I mean, at this point, we're all trying to digest what we just saw and what we just experienced. We all sort of, at this point, we're sharing notes around what each of us, specifically saw. Really, what we all saw was essentially all the same. It had these horn things. It had the elongated fingers. It had the glinting eyes in the dark. It had these pale arms. what Mark saw differently than what I saw was more so just the, I guess, the full body. And this is where I was unsure really of how big it really was.

And I think Mark sort of clocked it as it really did look like three feet tall. I think maybe because he was further back, he could just sort of see more of the context of this tree or all this other stuff. Or maybe it's just a detail that my brain didn't fully comprehend. I think we all were just sort of just describing it to each other and we were all just trying to figure out what we had seen. Has anybody ever seen a thing like this or heard of a thing like this?

we started talking about mythology of the area and was this like a local legend? Was it something that we should know about similar to Bigfoot, but maybe we'd just never heard about it growing up since we're all from the area? I think we were all just really creeped out by the fact that we saw a thing that we couldn't explain.

So in the end, both Mark and Ethan ended up staying over at my place for the evening. They both slept on the couches there. And Ethan was the biggest one of us. So our strategy was Ethan was going to sleep on the couch closest to the door. We're fully grown men, but we're still scared. So, yeah, that was sort of our. our plan and

they stayed the night I think they were equally as scared Mark is sleeping on the other couch closer to the kitchen and then I'm just sleeping in my room upstairs so I'm the safest of all

of them and then the next morning we woke up and it was bright and sunny and it was like nothing had happened at all in the sense of like everything just felt normal again. Like it didn't feel heavy in terms of the mood of the place that we were in.

But we all felt this emotional weight of, you know, we all just saw this thing. Are we going to talk about it? And so we talked about it some more. We continued to sort of talk about some of the details around what this thing looked like. We couldn't get over, I guess I forgot to mention this,

but we couldn't get over, like, how big the pupils on this thing were. Like, it was, like, these yellow eyes with these big pupils. And it's just, like, it's almost that, like, dead, empty stare of something that's not natural, something that's not right.

and that was sort of the thing that we really kept thinking about. The thing that gets me every time I think about this is just like how fucking creepy the fingers curling over one of the branches was. But like that when I think, when I close my eyes, I still see these like big pupils in the elongated pale fingers. And so we just sort of talked about this. And then at that point, you know, they decided like they're, going to take off. Like, we didn't go back for a while. We didn't go back to that park for a while.

This happened in early July, and we probably didn't go back until mid-August. And the only reason we went back there was because we had heard about some type of, I guess, like, good stargazing. And some other friends had heard that this. this park was really good to go to for stargazing. So you're probably thinking why the hell was you go back there in the middle of the night again to go stargazing. But this was like a really big group of people, maybe 10 or 12 of us. So I considered it, Mark considered it, Ethan considered it.

We ended up going back, but with a much larger group, we didn't see any. anything. And then just recently, like last week, I went back to sort of confirm some of the details. I went during the day. Many, many years, it was just a thing that Mark, Ethan and I shared as sort of this experience that none of us could explain. And it was something that when I would think about it because I had no foundation of what it could be. It just, it didn't make sense. Like, it still boggled my mind that, like, I experienced anything like this. I know that it happened and at the same time, I could not make any reasonable explanation

in my mind as to what it was. A year or two ago, I really started trying to. to find what it could have been. So I started looking into what it could be because it really was just bothering me that I still had no explanation for what it could be. And one day I was listening to a podcast and they started talking about this creature

called Apequaji. And it's a creature of Wampanoa, folklore, which is this East Coast indigenous tribal folklore. From what I've read and what I listen to in this podcast, they're sort of known to be sort of tricksters in many ways. And in some cases, they can, they'll try to lure you to your death. They're typically not considered safe. At one point, they were considered to be friends with humans,

but then something happened and they no longer are. And I don't want to botch any of that folklore, so I'm not going to, like, I don't want to ruin that, and I don't want to speak for all of that. All I know is based off of the description in this podcast and from other reading that I've done since listening to this podcast, That is the closest description of what I would say we saw, except what we saw is more Gala mask than what you typically see at Pukwaji drawn or painted.

When I was listening to this podcast, like it honestly gave me shivers, because for the first time I had a name for a thing that I experienced, It felt assuring that there was actually maybe partially an explanation to this thing that had been just sort of looming in the back of my mind ever since this happened. And it was sort of a relief and also it just further confirmed to me that this thing did happen. And maybe I did actually. experienced something. We didn't have like a shared

hallucination, but maybe it was like a real thing that we experienced. And at the same time, it still wasn't exactly that because Pukwajis are only East Coast, at least in, like there's no record that I can find and I've tried to find

some record of it on the West Coast, but it's only an East Coast thing. So I still don't fully understand what it is. But I will say that one of the things that did align and that did

creep me out and that did give me goosebumps was we are right next to a cliff at that park. And I just sort of wonder if maybe the music alert it there or something and then it was

trying to create curiosity for us. to keep us going further towards it, where it would maybe try to get us closer to the cliff. And I don't know. I don't know. It's still, I still don't know. But this is the closest thing I have.

I think this factors into my life in the sense of, I think I need to remember to keep an open mind. and that there are a lot of things that people experience that are just not explainable with our current, whatever we use to explain things, it doesn't fully capture everything. And I think for me, that's the big thing. That's the thing that keeps me coming back to this podcast

to listen to other people's experiences is like, in a sense, it helps me feel like I'm not alone. And also, I guess, to share this story to me is also, with anyone, is also sort of trying to help give permission for other people to maybe believe that they experience something, that they aren't crazy, and that it doesn't have to be a demon possessing someone or something

for it to be something unexplainable. That's why I see value in sharing this story. I think that our culture really likes to not have us accept that there's anything that couldn't be explained. And I don't think that you have to be a kook to have an experience like this. Like you really don't. It can just be taking your dog for a walk. One moment you're listening to a cover of Mumford and Sons and the next moment you're staring at a creepy creature hiding behind a bush or branch or something. And then it never happens again. and that's fine

I'm not going and looking for it Hey it's Jack from Otherworld Hey How are you on? Pretty good I thought You know I was calling you to You said you're a fan of corny jokes

Right and puns Yeah I thought I had a good one But I realized it's not going to work It doesn't work Because what was the band that you were You guys were playing on guitar during all of this.

Oh, Manfred and fun? Yeah, my joke's not going to work, dude. But I'll tell you it anyway. I was going to say that you missed an opportunity because this is a story about your friends and also this thing that you saw, this little creature.

And you could say that this is sort of a story of monsters and men. Damn it. But that wasn't the band Hang on I was actually We were playing One of Monsters and Men's

But that wasn't what we were mostly playing Okay so you're saying my joke still works It still works Okay It still works Okay Okay Okay

All right Thank you to Steve For listening to that terrible joke of mine, and also for sharing that story. All jokes and puns aside, this was such an extremely strange and alarming story. I couldn't imagine seeing something like that,

let alone while casually strolling around with my friends in a park. When Steve emailed in, he called this thing a Pagwaji, basically said that it's the closest that anything has come to look at, looking like the thing that he saw. Now, a Pugwaji is a creature from Native American folklore, specifically the Wampanag tribe of the northeastern United States.

Pug wedgies are often described as small, humanoid beings with grayish skin, standing two to three feet tall and having large noses, fingers, and ears. That particular creature and the lore that comes with it mostly originates from the Delaware region, which is very far away from where Steve and his friends saw this thing. In fact, it's the complete other side of the country. That being said, if little elf-like creatures do exist, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to travel outside of the Delaware area.

But also, in so many different cultures around the world, there's lore about small elf-like creatures, that vary in description. Maybe it was something else that Steve saw. Maybe all of these various creatures are actually the same thing. Who knows? I think the most striking detail about the thing that Steve saw is these stick-like spikes that it had. It almost sounded to me like the spikes of a hedgehog or a porcupine.

No matter what it is, I cannot imagine suddenly seeing this thing while you're just strolling around with your friends on a random night, walking your dog, and of course, listening to one of your friends try to play a Mumford and Son song on the acoustic guitar. I just couldn't imagine how shocking and disorienting that must have been. Thank you once again to Steve for sharing this story. This has been episode 95. The title is Cuomis Point, and you've been listening to Otherworld. Otherworld is executive produced and hosted by myself, Jack Wagner.

Our theme song is by Cobra Man. The soundtrack of this episode is by North Americans. This episode was edited by Theo Krantz and engineered by Theo Schaefer. Our artwork is by Coldestack Studios. Nikki Kate Delgado is our associate producer, production help by Haley Pearson. Please show us your support by subscribing, leaving a five-star review, and telling your friends about Otherworld. If you want to hear bonus episodes, you can become a patron at Patreon. on.com slash Otherworld.

Our social media is at Otherworld Pod. Thank you to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Jenna Weiss-Berman, Leah Reese Dennis, Rob Morandi, Eric Donnelly, Matt Casey, Morriceran, Josephina Francis, and Hillary Schuff. Follow and listen to Otherworld now for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. And finally, if you or somebody you know has experienced something paranormal, supernatural, or unexplained, you could send us your story at Stories at Otherworldpod.com.