Otherworld - Episode 97: Discernment Pt. 1

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

During a dinner with her dad’s side of the family, Hunter, whose parents divorced when she was four, hears the chilling story of an imaginary friend from her childhood. What seemed like a harmless memory soon sparked an eye-opening conversation with her mother, unveiling a hidden chapter of her past—an entire paranormal history Hunter had never imagined. Check out our Merch Follow us on: Instagram, TikTok, Twitter For business inquiries contact: [e-mail] If you have experienced something paranormal or unexplained, email us your story at [e-mail] To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to Otherworld. I'm your host, Jack Wagner. This episode is one that's a little different than normal. It's less of a paranormal story than it is a story about a person whose life has involved the paranormal, has been affected by the paranormal, I guess you could say, whether they knew it or not. A while back, I got an email from a girl named Hunter that included a very short story about an experience,

she had as a kid. But then a lot of other information about her family, her upbringing, and childhood that really piqued my interest. I'm a very curious person, and this episode is definitely the result of that curiosity. Sometimes I'll get an email where I read it and immediately think,

I just have to call this person up and talk to them just to see what they're like. And that's exactly what I did with Hunter after reading her email. Hunter is a person who had a very unusual and somewhat chaotic childhood, the type of childhood that would normally create a very unusual and probably chaotic person. But somehow Hunter ended up becoming a very normal adult, which made her whole story even more surprising to hear. I really like Hunter.

I was fascinated by her whole story, and as you will hear in this episode, I was interested in helping her find some answers to a certain mysterious aspect of her life. This is episode 97. The title is, Discernment, Part 1, and you're listening to Otherworld. Is this Bobby? At its core, the science you can't argue. That's worried about all of a science. Up in the sky.

It's almost frustrating. I'm literally, I'm going to die. I'm going to die. If limbs were just like wrong. Everybody moves back into the night, even if it takes them a minute. So my name's Hunter. I'm 28. I currently live with my fiancé and our two cats. We're getting married next May. Super excited.

I grew up in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. So a very unique place. It's basically like Canada and Wisconsin had a baby. But it's connected to me. Michigan. It's very quaint. It's beautiful. The nature is amazing. I'm really, really proud that I grew up there, but I would never move back again. It's very small, and there's just not a lot of opportunity, right? But my family's still there. I left, and I moved downstate, and I currently work as a financial analyst now. I love to read. So I'm in a couple book clubs, and I love throwing parties.

I'm like, if I get to host something, I'm so excited. I would say I'm normal, happy. And, like, I'm 28 now, right? And I recently, like, the last summer, I just had this moment of, like, damn, if I could tell myself at 18 what my life is like right now, she would be so happy. You know, I, like, had to check myself. And I'm very grateful for everything that I have right now. It's very happy. I have, you know, a maybe boring life now, but I like boring.

And truthfully, my childhood was so far. far from boring. My two best friends growing up, they, they would tell you, like, yeah, Hunter had a pretty crazy upbringing. And we all did, and we all got through it together. But I had a very unique situation growing up. Well, my parents got divorced when I was four. And so every week I would spend with one parent.

I'd go to my mom's for one week, and then I would switch and go to my dad's the next week back and forth, literally my entire life until I moved away for college. And my mom was on and off a single mom for a while. She got remarried. And then they got divorced and she kind of went through like a dating phase while I was in high school. So my mom's house was a lot different than my dad's. He never introduced me to someone until they were serious. Whereas at my mom's house, like, there would be, you know, some people visiting her and hanging out. And nothing wrong with that, you know, mom's got to do what she's got to do. But it was just very different.

My mom was definitely more of a friend than a mother or a parent growing up. And my dad was the house where I knew, like, no bullshit, right? I wasn't going to stay out late. I would never, ever dream of, like, trying to drink in his house or anything like that. His house was also incredibly stable. I knew what I was expecting when I was there. It was comfortable. And he really was like both parental figures to me for a lot of my life.

My mom's house was a trailer at the end of a like county road. Remember this is Upper Peninsula, Michigan. Like if there was a snowstorm, I was getting stuck on that house for days. It was in the middle of nowhere. At one point I remember my ex-stepdad. He had problems with alcohol. So there are things that came around with that. I vividly remember one time our dryer set fire.

And I'm sorry I'm laughing. It's just I have to laugh by now. Our dryer caught fire. And my stepdad was drunk, passed out on the living room floor. The fire alarms go off. My mom freaks out, tells him he needs to do something about it. So he just opens the back door, picks up the dryer. in his hands and chucks it out into the backyard.

And it was the middle of winter when this happened. So then in the spring we just had this like upside down dryer in the backyard that stayed there until spring. Like that's a pretty good encapsulation of my childhood at my mom's house. I originally wrote in because I have a story about my childhood. But in order to tell my story, it really opens up a can of worms. And that can of worms is my mom. She has always been kind of spooky. And I knew that she has had paranormal experiences.

But I have never heard any of them in full. I've never heard completely unabridged versions of them. But growing up, she would tease me in a way of passing a building. She'd say, oh, I've been in there. It's so haunted. What do you mean it's so haunted? Oh, well, yeah, I used to work there and, like, I felt something touched me. What do you mean?

Like, are you serious? Are you, like, is this a joke, right? No, no. And that was kind of the relationship we had growing up. I would press her for a real story, right? Like, mom, come on. No bullshit. Like, tell me a story.

And she would kind of get uncomfortable and afraid, I would say, right? She would genuinely say, like, Hunter, I'm trying to protect you from things. I don't want to tell you things I've experienced because they're messed up. And I also don't want you to think that your mom is crazy. I'm like, well, too late. Like, you're teasing these stories, but you won't tell me. And of course, as a teenager, I thought that was silly. Like, I think most people have things with their moms where they think,

oh, it's fine, mom. I know you're trying to protect me, but you're being lame. Like, tell me the demon stories. I want to hear them. But I think, like, I have a very specific memory of asking my mom about ghosts, okay? And I think that her answer really paints my mom's entire personality in our relationship. So I vividly remember she bought one of those Life magazine, like, special editions. They were a lot thicker.

It's almost like a book. And it was, she had one that was like the most haunted places in America. or something. And I remember looking through it as a kid. I had to be like 10. I was little. And I saw the photo from the Amityville house. So I remember seeing that photo and being like, Mom, our ghosts real? And her response was, do you want the truth or the lie? I was that to a child. And I was like, um, the lie? And she goes, no, ghosts aren't real. And leaves me flabbergasted as, a 10-year-old. Sometimes driving in the car, we would pass a house.

And she would point out the house to me and be like, Hunter, look at that house. Do you feel anything when you look at it? And I would say, like, I mean, it looks old and creepy, I guess. And she would ask, creepy how? I said, I don't know. It just looks like a haunted house from a movie. And I didn't realize it at the time, but she was kind of testing if I could, could feel energies, which I don't, and I can't. But I remember that being a weird question.

You know, I would ask her once or twice and say, should I feel something when I look at that? And she would brush it off or say, oh, no, I was just wondering. And so I kind of had these hints of, like, she's not telling me something or does she see things that I can't? Is she feeling things that I can't? I could tell something was going on with her. I could tell that she had this not secret other life, but this part of her life that she wasn't sharing with me. So I have never had a paranormal experience, or at least I didn't think that I had, until two Christmases ago. And I was sitting with my family, my dad's side of the family.

So, you know, my mom isn't there and none of that family is. They got divorced. I'm sitting with my dad's side of the family. and their side of the family is not religious, but they're, I mean, we'll talk about ghost stories. We'll talk about, oh, did you see sometimes little kids, they'll remember past lives, those kind of conversations. And we were all sitting around, and out of nowhere, my aunt brought up, hey, didn't Hunter have an imaginary friend growing up, and didn't her mom think it was like a dark entity or something? And at that point, I look at her and I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? And I look to my dad and I expect him to be laughing and kind of reacting to me laughing saying,

hey, what the hell? But instead, he literally goes cold. It was very out of character for him to have that reaction to something we were talking about. And so I get scared in that moment. My dad always growing up, he would call out bullshit, right? So when he had that reaction and didn't immediately say, ugh, another one of your mom's stories or scoff like I expected him to, it genuinely scared me.

And I kind of looked at him and was like, okay, well, now we have to talk about it because you just made it weird. and he was very uncomfortable. He said something like, nope, I don't even want to talk about this. I really don't think it's a good idea to talk about it because I just think if there was bad energy, you should let it be in the past. I don't even want to talk about it. And so I kind of had to beg him to talk about it at that point.

And I ended up hearing his side of the story, which was, I had an imaginary friend growing up, and he would hear me talking to this friend. I would tell him about the friend, and he didn't think anything of it, right? Kids have imaginary friends until one day he's sitting in the living room in his lazy boy chair, and I'm in his periphery playing in the living room by myself. I'm standing up, you know, just kind of talking to myself in an imaginary zone. like little kids do. And all of a sudden, out of the corner of his eye,

he sees me get violently pushed to the floor. He said, while recalling the story, Hunter, you did not fall. You were pushed to the ground with such force that I lost my breath. He said it was forceful. He said I was forcefully pushed down. I think the words he used.

was like something I couldn't see pushed you down to the ground. He said that he picked me up and just was like, I don't want to talk about this anymore. And then that was the end of the story. He cut us off and would not answer any other questions. And so we're all kind of shocked into silence at that point. But my aunt pulls out her phone and says, what was the friend's name? I'm going to ask Hunter's mom. I know she'll remember it.

And my dad says, stop. do not ask her. I really don't want to talk about this, and I don't want to answer any questions. So my aunt is already typing a message to my mom because she knows my mom will remember. My dad would not say the name of the imaginary friend, and my aunt was really pushing.

He would not say it. And so my aunt did end up messaging my mom and asking for the name, and my mom wrote back right away with the name. and I didn't want to hear it. I literally did not let my aunt tell me the name. It genuinely freaked me out so bad. And in the back of my head,

I kind of had this probably silly thought of, well, if I say that name, it's going to come back. What if I have had this demon imaginary friend connected to me for my entire life and she's just been chilling in the background, waiting for something else to happen. I was so freaked out. I literally thought about it for an entire night

and kind of trying to laugh it off because it genuinely scared me so bad. So after I heard that story, I did have to ask my mom about it. My curiosity got the best of me. And she filled in the gaps, but told the exact same story as my dad, which scared me even more,

because while my dad had no reason to lie and because my dad is the way that he is, I never once disbelieved his story. I genuinely believe that he saw that happen. But having my mom confirm it really was just surreal because she didn't know that we, I don't know, how would she tell the exact same story unless it happened to both of them? She told me that, yes, when I was little, she said two or three. I had an imaginary friend. And at first, my parents didn't think anything of it because I would just be talking to someone in my room, which was upstairs.

So they could kind of hear me when they were in the living room. They could hear me talking to someone. And I eventually told them, it's my friend. This is my friend Muriel. my mom said that I told her that she had red hair and fire for eyes. And I asked my mom, did she do anything else to me? Did you ever see anything else? Or like what?

My mom told me that I told her that my imaginary friend Muriel was telling me to bite the heads off of deadfish. And my mom was like, this is not right. you know, am I, like, being influenced by someone? You know, is there, like, a person telling me these things that we should be concerned about? Or, like, is there a ghost in the house telling me these things, right? She didn't know what to think of it. And so they didn't do anything about the friend. They were kind of hoping that it would go away on its own.

But she said one day she saw me get pushed down to the floor. She said, we were sitting. in the living room watching TV. You were playing by yourself like a toddler does. And all of a sudden, out of nowhere, you were pushed to the ground. She said, you didn't fall. It looked like something shoved you. And at that point, my mom started screaming, fuck you, whatever you are, get the hell out of my house. You will never touch our daughter again. I don't know what you are. You are not. You are not welcome here, it is time to leave. And she said that it stopped after that.

So after learning about the imaginary friend, I obviously asked her her side of that story, but then I just started talking to her more and telling her that I was genuinely interested to hear if she's had any other experiences. And I told her growing up, hey, I know that you have had little experiences, but you kind of have hinted and left me breadcrumbs my whole life, that you have a lot bigger, beefier stories, right? I know that you have experienced things your whole life, and I want you to tell them to me. My mom essentially told me that there is a religious term for this, and it's the gift of discernment, and my mother has that. And essentially what that means is that she can see, hear, and

feel entities or things, beings, whatever you want to call them that, you know, normal people can't see. Beings from the other side,

if you want to call it, from hell, I don't know. She essentially can see spirits or demons or ghosts. And she told me that as a young kid, she would tell her mom that she was seeing a shadow man

and her mom would say, no, you're imagining it. It's fine, you're imagining it. She would tell her dad, hey, dad, I saw someone in the house earlier and he said, no, you didn't. You're making it up. And so going through life,

she just thought she was weird. She thought maybe I'm crazy. Maybe I'm schizophrenic and I see things. I don't know. This is very weird. And it wasn't until she joined the church later in life when she was in her early 20s, that she kind of realized other people have this gift.

And specifically she joined Catholicism, and that's where she really learned a lot more about this gift that she has and what she could do with it. And she kind of told me that in her mid-20s, she kind of made it a goal to help people because of this gift. She said a lot of her life, she was just mad. and annoyed that she had to deal with this, right? Like, why am I seeing these things?

Why am I seeing these things? It's an inconvenience to me, one. But it's scary. I'm scared. Why do I experience these things? And it wasn't until she found God and thinks that God gave her this gift to help people, that she really found peace. It was honestly, I mean, it was kind of,

I don't know, serendipitous to hear these things. Because for one, I was really glad that she was trusting me. I mean, she has not told a lot of people about this. But on the other hand, I'm hearing these and being like, wait, hold on. So you do what? Like, what? Are you like a Zach Began screaming in a basement kind of thing? Or what are we doing?

Okay, we have to take a break. But we'll be right back with the rest of this episode. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and it's a powerful reminder that whatever you're going through right now, you don't have to navigate it alone. We all have those nights where we're lying awake, staring at the ceiling, feeling like we have to figure out every answer by ourselves, but no journey should be solo. Having someone with you to listen and provide unbiased support can change everything. If you've been feeling overwhelmed or just stuck lately, therapy can be that space to check in with yourself. Better help makes getting started easy. They use a short questionnaire to match you with one, of their 30,000 plus licensed therapists, and you could switch therapists at any time if it isn't the right fit. You don't have to do this journey alone,

find support, and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash otherworld. That's betterhelp.com slash otherworld. Remember, like, getting off the phone with her and just coming home to my fiance and being like, I don't even know how to tell you this. My mom, like, fights demons, I guess. And he's like,

You want to elaborate on that? But no, I asked her a lot of questions. I learned so much about the Catholic Church that I never expected to learn because I'm not religious. But I just kept asking her questions, well, what do you mean this? Or did you have to take a class to learn how to properly do what you do? And she said, yeah, literally, I was taking classes for this. What do you mean? are you talking to the priest? Are you talking to the bishop? I mean, who are you? Like, are there other people involved in this? She's like, yeah, there's a whole, there's a whole world in the background here of people that go to houses and help clear things or, you know, even getting into like what we would call exorcism. It just started to make so many things lick and make sense from my childhood that I never had answers to.

For example, I remember that my mom helped one of my childhood best friend's aunts growing up, and I didn't know why she was helping her or with what. But after hearing this story, it all made sense. And I remember one time she made us stop at someone's house to drop something off, and this woman opened the door and was just sobbing and hugging my mom and telling her, thank you, thank you so much. And I had no idea what was going on. Thank you for what. I don't even know what my mom just gave her.

And it wasn't until I had this conversation that I realized that was why she was being thanked by people randomly. And that's what she did for my friend's aunt. And while she had experiences of her own through childhood, she really, for most of my life growing up, she was going out in helping people and trying to clear things that were in their homes or bad energies or things that were going wrong in their homes. So while she's telling me this, I'm just beyond words. I mean, this is a crazy thing to hear from your mom.

And to realize that she's been doing this, I mean, since I was a kid. She has been helping people around us in our small community with ghosts and demons in their house. I don't know. But these things started making sense in my mind because I remember I came home to visit from college. And I went to my mom's house, and she had a friend visiting. She told me, hey, this is my friend, David.

He's visiting to do some research. And I was like, okay. And at that point in my life, I mean, I was in college. I wasn't talking to my mom very often, right? I'm busy. But I remember her telling me on the phone, like, oh, she's talking to these people online. I'm thinking you are absolutely getting catfished.

Good luck, but okay. And essentially what she told me was that she met David online. They shared a special interest. And he wanted to do some research in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. And they kept talking and she said to him, hey, you can come stay with me and we can research together. And he ended up staying for a summer, a living with her, while I was home that entire summer.

So I would go hang out with my friends and then come over and there's this enormous. He was like at least six feet tall, incredibly lanky, kind of spooky looking. He had like, I mean, his face was kind of sunken in, right? He just was kind of a spooky guy. He wore the most enormous cross on his neck. He was very, very soft-spoken. And I remember just being like, what the hell? is going on. Who is this man? Why are you here? He was very nice to me, but I tried to ask my mom,

like, what are you guys researching? And she was so incredibly vague. She told me that they were looking into the history of the UP, and they would literally go in the backyard. And the backyard was huge, mind you. Like, it was a yard, but then it was incredibly thick, trees back there. And my mom told me that her and David were going back there to record things. And I asked her, what are you recording? Like, what are you talking about? And she would tell me, oh, we're just like, there's some old buildings back there. We just want to see what's going on and record things. That is literally the context I had back then. None. And this is where it gets a little bit fishy. So when I came home

to visit, I just thought, this is like some guy my mom met online and they're probably dating. I don't care. It's none of my business. And I find out that this guy was a religious demonologist.

I don't even know what the hell that means, but I found his website and it looked like something from a horror movie where they try to be scary, but it just looks really fake and stupid. Like, this guy was in my house for a whole summer, running around the backyard with my mom,

trying to, like, record demons, apparently. This guy was, like, laying on my couch eating chips and watching TV with us. I'm sorry. Wait, your mom? Was she dating the demon? I don't know. I still don't know. But I thought that they were dating.

Hunter, I'm like... This is my... I know. I'm holding on for dear life trying to... Figure out, like, where... Yeah, follow along. Sorry. This has a lot of twists and turns.

But... So your mom, there's a demonologist living in your house, and you didn't know... No. They were just saying that they're... Yeah, my mom... What did you... Did you think that they're like...

I thought they were... It was like a bad lie to cover up, like, weird dates? Like, spooky? I genuinely thought that this was just a guy, some guy that my mom was dating. And he was from the South, so he had the thickest southern accent. So she's like, oh, he's staying with us for the summer.

He wants to visit the UP. And I'm like, okay, your new boyfriend's staying with us for the summer. Whatever. I didn't know that in the background, they were out there running around doing ghost adventures in the backyard. But I just remember my mom stopped talking about him. And he was sending my mom stuff for months, trying to, like, win her back. And that's why I was like, are you really dating?

I don't know. Because he was sending her all this shit in the mail, trying to, like, get in contact with her. What kind of shit? He sent me the entire Breaking Bad DVD box set. Okay, that's all right. And that was very nice. But he also sent my brother like this sword, like this, I don't know, this enormous sword. And he was like sending us all these gifts because he was trying to be like, no, I want to be a part of your life.

I think he was dating your mom. I think this. I think they were dating. And I don't know if this is a case of like my mom being embarrassed and not wanting to admit that they were dating. but there was, they were doing demonology shit in the backyard. And I don't know what that even means, but it's a religious demonologist, and my mom was hanging out with him. I mean, like, finding this out in adulthood is crazy.

I, it's just, like, things that happened in my life, I thought that they were normal or maybe a little weird. And she just kind of like wallups me with eight layers of the craziest shit I've ever heard in my life and it's my life, these things that were happening in the background that I had no idea were happening, I just need to know what else she has and things that she's experienced, that she's not telling me. And I think, like, I think you need to talk to her. I don't really know what to make of this. I'm sorry. Do you believe her? I believe, I think David, David was a very weird blip in time to me.

And, like, I don't know what they were doing. And I don't know if I believe him. But I'm my mother's daughter, and I can tell when she's lying. Like, and she's not lying when she talks to me about these things. I mean, she gets emotional. She gets, I don't know, she's not being boisterous when she talks to me about these things. Do you know what I mean? She's very, very genuine when she tells me these things.

things. And I do believe her. And my own personal, you know, theology on life is the exact opposite of what my mom has told me. And I haven't even tried to digest that. But I do believe her. I know the gist of a lot of experiences that she's had, but I also know that she's had a lot more, right? I I remember her telling me about this vault that she supposedly has. And the vault contains... She has a vault? Crazy. Wait, I'm going to tell you the...

Sorry. Keep going. Sorry. She's hinted at this vault having haunted items in it that she has collected from various... cases, whatever you want to call it, when she's helped someone, and if there was a specific object that had bad energy, she took it and, like, sealed it in a vault so that the energy can't escape.

And I've tried asking, like, what is in the vault? And she won't tell me. I don't know what's in the vault. And I'm like, well, what are you doing with the vault? Like, where is this vault? And she said it's buried in her ex-fiance's yard. Because she buried it in her ex-fiancee's yard before they broke up. Because she didn't want to carry it around with her.

She didn't want to move into a new place with this vault of haunted shit. So she just buried it in his yard. I just, I've had all these hints, right? I know that there are pieces of stories and I've never heard the full stories. I know that there's just so much that she isn't telling me. And I just really need to know. This is a really weird one, Hunter. I know.

I know. But I'm curious. I'm like, you have, you've made me curious. Is that good or bad? I don't know. I mean, I don't know yet either. This does sound like a can of worms. I'll say that.

I know. But I want to talk to her. Yeah. And I mean, like. Mostly just to see what she's like. Yeah. My mom also has a recording that she played for me. And she told me she recorded.

It recorded it in a house that she was experiencing weird noises and bad energies and things. And she finally played it for me. And I cannot explain what I heard in that recording. I had full body chills. I had to go take a walk outside. I was so scared and just honestly confused after I heard it because in my mind I was trying to debunk it. I heard I heard like the deepest

scariest non-human gargling kind of scream that I don't know how a human could possibly make that sound. It scared me so bad that I need to know the story of it.

Where the hell did this come from? Why does she have this? How did she get this? Why does this exist? I don't know that... Like, if your mom emailed me, I don't know that she would make it onto other world, Hunter, and be honest. That's valid.

I know. I know. This story is crazy, but I'm curious to kind of like... I'm curious to help you find out the full story, Hunter. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I genuinely believe my...

mom's stories and I think I'm a normal person as much as anyone can think is they're a normal person without sounding crazy. My other relatives believe my mom and these are people who have normal nine to five day jobs who aren't, you know, these aren't people who are involved in the paranormal at all. These are normal people who believe my mom. But I just, I do have to warn you of one potential bear trap with my mom. I don't want it to make it seem to be. I don't want it to make it seem like my mom is incredible. And I hope that this doesn't negate anything I've told you about her. But I just need to tell you that if you Google my mom's name, you will see that she was found guilty of embezzling from a church. Okay. And what is that? What happened? Yeah. It's, um, it's something that

I don't talk about. Just something to be aware of. I fully stand by my mom in her side of this story. But I also know that you are the third party here, and I just want to give you all the information. My mom really struggled growing up, paying bills and things like that. And I remember the church that we were a part of.

She ended up becoming their accountant. She was the single sole accountant who was handling things. And the pastor at the time was very nice. I have fond memories of him. I remember him coming over to our house and bringing us food sometimes or helping my mom out with things. And I remember one year my mom got a new furnace in our trailer. And she told me that the church paid for it.

And a few years after that, essentially the church closed. They went bankrupt, they closed, and accused my mom of embezzling from the church and having to close because of it. I talked to my mom about this, and she told me that essentially the pastor ran into health issues and was using church funds to cover the medical costs. and then when it became too messy, he blamed my mom for it. And because my mom was just the accountant and the pastor was the pastor, essentially she became the scapegoat for this church dissolving. And even though she's my mom, I mean, it's natural for me to take her side.

I genuinely believe her because the amount of money was $5,000. And if a church can go bankrupt for $5,000, that just doesn't really make sense to me. I feel like there had to have been more going on. I remember my mom telling me that the entire church turned against her and even members of our family turned against her because they thought she was this terrible person. I mean, that's an insane thing to have in the public eye, right? like stealing from a church, the church that you belong to, is insane and horrible. She was found guilty of it, but years after it all went down,

one of my aunts, who was someone who was convinced that my mom really did steal from the church, came up to my mom at a cousin's wedding, sobbing and apologizing, and telling my mom that she was so sorry for never believing my mom's side of the story. She was sorry for doubting her, and she was sorry for believing the people who were lying and, like, making this up against my mom. Was she doing demonology during this time? I don't think so.

I think the demonology stuff happened after she, after that church dissolved. This, like, thing that happened really rocked my, my ideas about the world. I mean, I was going to church just because she kind of forced me to, but I never really felt attached to the church. And after this happened,

either way I looked at it, I wanted nothing to do with religion after this. Either my mom was a quote unquote, good Christian woman who stole from the very church that she belonged to or the good Christian community around her turned against her and abandoned her essentially and made up these lies about her.

Like either way it went down. I just thought this is stupid. Like I just don't know how anybody who preaches kindness and things like that could do these sorts of things. My mom or the congregation as a whole. And after that happened, I completely left religion. And I have not wanted anything to do with it since.

has she? Yeah, my mom is still a part of the Catholic Church, so that's a different church than the one that happened at. That was just a small Lutheran church. But my mom became even more involved in her own religious journey after this happened. And I thought that was kind of strange. I don't know why she would want to be a part of that again. And I feel like it was kind of scary.

It had to have been scary to join in a, church effort that happened. But she regularly goes to the Catholic church in the town. This is a lot to process. I know. I mean, I guess I'll ask her about it. Yeah. I mean, she was found guilty in court, right? She was. Okay, what makes you believe her? I mean, you know, there's a lot of things you didn't know about her, including that she was dating a demonologist that sent you swords and breaking bad

box sets. Yeah, I think... There's a lot, you didn't know about your mom, like what makes you think that... Why do I trust her? This isn't just another one of them. Yeah. Yeah.

I... Like I said, I mean, I have a good bullshit radar for my mom. Just because she's my mom, and I know her very well. And I genuinely believe her when she says that she did not steal

from the church. I just, I don't know how to convey that in words, but I, you can feel when someone's lying to you sometimes, unless they're a complete sociopath, and I don't think my mom is a complete sociopath. So maybe, maybe we're all being, you know,

conned by her, but I don't think that's likely. This really is a can of worms, isn't it? I know. Well, should we talk to your mom? Yeah. All right. As you could see, the story ended up pulling me in a little bit.

It's a story that is complex in a way that I may be setting myself up for a bit of a headache in the future, but I simply couldn't resist with this one. Part of the reason for that is because of how quickly I hit it off with Hunter. Sometimes when I'm making this show, I'll start an interview with a complete stranger, and by the end, I feel like I've known them for a really long time. And I felt that way with Hunter. I also could just tell that this was definitely something more than a ghost story to her. It was clear that her and her mom didn't always have the best relationship.

And I could tell that doing this episode was very likely a way of getting to know this side of her mom that has been kept secret. for so long and it's probably just a side of her that is hard to get to know. For that reason, I was eager to help Hunter. And quite frankly, I wanted to know more about all this myself. So in the next episode, I'll be speaking to Hunter's mom about this apparent secret life that she has lived as some kind of demonologist. and hopefully getting some clear answers about some things that have been very unclear to Hunter for a very long time. This has been episode 97.

The title is Discernment Part 1, and you've been listening to Otherworld. Otherworld is executive produced and hosted by myself, Jack Wagner. Our theme song is by Cobra Man. The soundtrack of this episode is by Juice Jackal. This episode was edited and engineered by Theo Schaefer. Our artwork is by Coldestack Studios. Nikki Kate Delgado is our associate producer, production help by Haley Pearson. Please show us your support by subscribing, leaving a five-star review, and telling your friends about Otherworld.

If you want to hear bonus episodes, you can become a patron at patreon.com slash Otherworld. Our social media is at Otherworld Pod. Thank you to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Jenna Weiss-Berman, Leah Reese Dennis, Rob Morandi, Eric Donnelly, Matt Kase. Moore Curran, Josephina Francis, and Hillary Schuff. Follow and listen to Otherworld now for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. And finally, if you or somebody you know has experienced something paranormal, supernatural, or unexplained, you could send us your story at Stories at Otherworldpod.com.