Otherworld - Interview with Daniel Sheehan

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

Jack speaks with Daniel Sheehan, a renowned constitutional and public interest lawyer whose career spans landmark cases including the Pentagon Papers, the Watergate break-in, and cases related to the Dakota Access Pipeline protests. Today, Sheehan is at the forefront of UAP disclosure efforts and runs the New Paradigm Institute, a grassroots movement advocating for government transparency on UFO/UAP phenomena. Daniel Sheehan has a new show with SpectreVision Radio where he dives deep into his career at the forefront of the disclosure movement, you can listen here: Full Disclosure with Daniel Sheehan Daniel Sheehan's The New Paradigm Institute Check out our Merch⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow us on:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠,⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠,⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ For business inquiries contact: [e-mail] If you have experienced something paranormal or unexplained, email us your story at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail] To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to Otherworld. I'm your host, Jack Wagner. This episode is an interview with somebody that I am very excited to have on the show. His name is Danny Sheehan. Danny Sheen is a constitutional litigator who has tried some of the most important cases in American history from the Pentagon Papers to the Watergate scandal and Iran Contra. He has had a long and incredible career. And these days, he has turned his focused to something slightly different, the potential existence of extraterrestrial or extra-dimensional non-human species. Essentially, UFOs. I'm sure many of you have seen some of the major news stories and congressional hearings about UFO disclosure in recent years. Danny Sheehan has been right in the middle of all of that. I think this topic can be a little overwhelming for some people, including myself. Even though I host a paranormal show, I find myself questioning certain aspects of the UFO lore,

and my thoughts on the topic seem to be constantly evolving. That's why I was so curious to talk to Danny about the work he's been doing and to learn more about the legal side of this rapidly evolving topic. This is my interview with Danny Sheehan, and you're listening to Otherworld. All right, joining me now. is Danny Sheehan, an incredible lawyer with a long, long career who has now taken a turn towards pursuing some very interesting new cases.

I guess you've been doing this for a while. You have been working on UFO disclosure in general. Welcome to the show. 47 years. 40 years. I guess it's not new, really. It's not exactly a new era of this gone on since. Alizando and Chris Mellon actually got the New York Times to give us a front-page story. You know, so there's been this entire new epic underway that has had David Brush testifying and new testifying to Congress and other people.

So there's a, it seems new to a lot of people, but it's been a long haul to get it to this stage. Absolutely. And you've had an incredible career and worked on so many things. it's honestly a daunting list. You were involved in Watergate, the Lepenka bombing, Iran-Contra, Dakota Access Pipeline, the Pentagon Papers.

Am I correct with these? Are you getting anything wrong? Correct. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot. And, you know, a lot of cases that involve government corruption, famous instances of people in power, you know,

abusing that power, stepping out of line, basically conspiracies. It comes basically from majoring in constitutional law at Harvard Law School. These are all primarily constitutional questions.

For example, now, with an executive branch office hidden deep inside the Defense Department and the intelligence community refusing to reveal what they're doing to Congress and lying to Congress.

And in fact, embezzling money from programs that Congress has appropriated for other projects and then secretly channeling it off into this super secret project is a complete defiance of the constitutional

authority of Congress in the three-part in the three-branched government. So that's a fundamental constitutional question. The same thing has been true in virtually all the cases that I've done. The very first case that I did when we found

the Harvard Civil Rights Law Regan, back in 1968 at Harvard Law School, we initiated the case that ended up establishing the right of journalists to protect their constitutional, or protect their First Amendment rights to keep secret their sources from state and federal grand juries. There were a government that had been co-opted by government prosecutors and intelligence agencies, in fact, you tried to find out who the sources were. And we ended up getting the case established that granted the right under the First Amendment of journalists to protect their confidential news sources. And then it went on.

I got recruited by the big corporate law firm that represents NBC, who was the person that we represented was an NBC journalist. And so I got recruited by the law firm. And so I was there when the New York Times got the Pentagon Papers. And that was another major constitutional, you know, where you had the executive branch lying to Congress, falsely asserting that some of our warships theoretically, completely innocently out in international waters, have been attacked, you know, by North Vietnamese gunboats, you know, which was a complete fabrication. And it was used as a justification for invading and trying to occupy the Vietnam Peninsula. You know, so that these are constitutional questions that have arisen, as of course was the Watergate Burgloup, where you had the, you know, executive branch at the White House, you know, bugging and wiretapping the offices of the Democratic National Headquarters. You know, these are all constitutional cases.

and because the conduct that was so unconstitutional was being concealed and lied about, it ends up taking on the air of a conspiracy, you know, conspiratory, which is breathing together to kind of engage in covert clandestine activity. And that's why it's not coincidental that a lot of these things have gone into the Central Intelligence Agency, which basically has garnered unto itself. is theoretical right to engage in corporate operations. It was basically a memo that was sent by the National Security Council of the White House to the CIA, telling them that they had the authority to engage in corporate operations.

So it was sort of a self-created power that the executive branch is claimed here. So these are cases that all involve the important constitutional protections. that the founders are drafted into the constitutions to protect the citizens against an abuse of power on the part of executive officials and in some instances, Congress. When, what got you into this in the very first place? Because, I mean, times have certainly changed. It's, it's worth appreciating that we're now in a world where Congress is talking about UFOs. That's like a new, a new thing, you know, this is being, discussed in the open and not just on fringe zines and TV shows and sci-fi movies.

But 40 years ago, what made you interested in pursuing this? Because you were doing a lot of very serious work, and I think a lot of people used to consider this uncereous. What happened is I was at the Jesuit National Headquarters in Washington, D.C. I was a candidate for the Jesuit priesthood after having already graduated to Harvard College in Harvard Law School. and co-founded the Harvard Civil Rights Law Review and been out practicing law for a number of years doing those cases. And I ended up being recruited by the Jesuit order

to come down and be their general counsel at their national headquarters to formulate public policy for the Jesuit order of the Catholic Church. And it was there that I was contacted by the Congressional Research Service when President Carter was elected in November of 1976. This sounds like ancient history to you guys.

It sounds sort of like back when, was that back when the Civil War was happening? Anyway, it was in 1976 when President Carter was elected, one of the first things that he did was sent to have the director of the CIA come down to Paines, Georgia, and briefed him on the, on what we knew about UFOs, because he had seen a UFO when he was the governor of Georgia. He was at a Lions Club meeting out in one of the countryside, and all those other guys were out on the front porch having a smoke, and the UFO came. And it was just like the length of a football field away. It wasn't like some dancing light in the sky somewhere.

It was like a full-scale UFO. So when he became president, one of the very first things he did is directed the CIA director to come to Plains, Georgia, and brief him. And it turns out that the CIA director at that time was George H.W. Bush, who had been designated as the new CIA director by Gerald Ford. He was very good at that job. Maybe too good, some would say. And so he flat out refused to give the information to the president, saying that he, the first of the first. President had no need to know that information and refused to give it to him. So President Carter, rather than waste a lot of newly gained political capital by fighting the Central Intelligence Agency, went to the head of the House Committee on Science and Technology and asked them to task the Congressional Research Service

with the task of digging out all information that we had inside the United States government about UFOs. and any extraterrestrial civilization or species that they may represent. And that's what happened. So I was contacted by Dr. Marsha Smith, who was the head of the Science and Technology Division of the Congressional Research Service in my capacity as legal counsel at the Jesuit headquarters to see if we could reach out to the Vatican, to see if we could get access to the the Vatican archives to find out what information the Vatican might have, you know, stored in its thousand years of records about UFOs. And that's how I became involved. And I was made

special counsel to that investigation. And in that context, I was given access to the classified portion of Project Blue Book, which was the 1952 to 1962, to call it, investigation by the United States Air Force of UFO. And it was in those classified files that I saw actual photographs of a UFO crash retrieval operation going out. So there it was. And it wasn't any doubt about what it was. It was a, oh, yes.

You saw this? Yes, I did. It was a classic UFO. It must have been about, oh, probably 40 feet in diameter. or in circumference and it had hidden to the snow-covered field and plowed a great big trench through the middle of the field and ended up stuck in the side of a big earthen embankment and it was sticking up at like a 45-degree angle

and you can see the dome of it in the disc part and it had U.S. Air Force people personnel gathered all around taking photographs and stuff of it And actually a movie camera with kind of the little two canisters on top of the movie camera. So it kind of dated it. That would be like in the 50s or something. But anyway, so I saw that and I realized that this was true. And I brought the, I traced symbols that were along the bottom of the dome of the craft.

You could actually see them in the photograph. So I traced them onto the back of the yellow pad. and I brought it back to Jesuit headquarters and I showed it to Father William J. Davis who was my Jesuit superior at the time and he just, his response was he bent down and stood open the drawer of his desk and pulled out this little eight and a half by 11

a manila folder and handed it to me and I opened it up and there was a eight and a half by 11 black and white glossy photograph of a UFO actually in flight. And I said, you know, where did you get this? And he said, my sister Doty gave it to me. I said, well, where did Doty get it?

She said, when Mike gave it to her husband, who turns out to be the chief air traffic controller at the Seattle airport. And it turns out that he had, I said, where did he get it? He said, and he got it from his best friend, who was a cargo pilot, who flies cargo all around the northwest, who took the picture right out of the window of his airplane. And when he got it developed and realized what he had, he didn't want to report it because he didn't want to lose his pilot license. And so he went and turned it over to his friend who was the head of the air traffic controllers at the Seattle airport. And then Mike didn't want to get in trouble.

So he took it and gave it to his wife and said, here, give this to your brother. He's a priest. Whatever that meant. That's amazing. So there it was. So I had in the same day, I had basically seen a UFO crashed in a crash retrieval undertaken in a classified file that I was given access to and was also shown the photograph at Jesuit headquarters of a UFO in flight that my Jesuit superior had in his drawer.

And so from that point forward, what we did is we gathered together all 54 heads of the national religious denominations that have offices in Washington, D.C. in early 1977, and proposed that we put together a joint task force to try to prepare the major religious denominations of the United States for this reality that they were going to have to cope with. Well, they didn't. They decided they were going to do that, because, as you said, it was not viewed as a serious subject. Yeah. And so I was, I began investigating to find out what the evidence was that really supported all of this, in addition to what I'd already seen.

And that led to me being contacted in 1994 by Dr. John Mack, who was at Harvard University. and that he had been sent to Harvard. He was the head of the Department of Clinical Psychiatry at Harvard, and a number of high-ranking military officers had been ordered to go get psychiatric exams because they kept insisting upon filing reports that their people were encountering UFOs. And in the Defense Department, it turns out,

along with the Central Intelligence Agency, had adopted a criminal. covert plan to order anybody who attempted to file these reports could be compelled to get a psychiatric exam, which was deterring 99% of anybody from going forward with such reports. But those who had insisted, you know, ended up being sent to John Mack at Harvard for a psychiatric test. And what happened is after a half a dozen or so of these, he contacted actually his family telling them that this was going on, this weird thing was going on. He was getting these high-ranking military officials reporting these things. And they recommended that he

meet with a friend of the family, this fellow Bud Hopkins, whose family were friends of John Max family. And Bud Hopkins, who was a very wealthy artist, actually, a sculptor and artist, had been as an avocation, had been interviewing people who said they had direct face-to-face contact with extraterrestrials who had, they found landed in a field or something by the home, had somehow been abducted.

And so that John then began meeting with Bud Hopkins, and Bud Hopkins put him in touch with, you know, lawyers and doctors and, you know, high school teachers and all kinds of people that are in extremely credible positioned police officers, et cetera, who had been making these reports. And so John began a process of interviewing these people and giving them a full psychiatric background so that he could sort out any people that were kind of mentally unstable. But he got a whole core of people that were extraordinarily credible.

And he was so fascinated by this that he wrote an article. and submitted it to the New England Journal of Medicine, the kind of peer-reviewed magazine for scientists. And they rejected it and refused to publish it. And so he redid the article and put in a lot more footnotes and a lot more sites, et cetera, and I sent it back to them. And the editor-in-chief of the New England Journal of Medicine, Relman,

his name is, O. Relman, ordered his executive secretary to bring the envelope back to John Mack unopened and to be sure to tell him that not only

were they not going to publish it. They weren't even going to open the envelope. I mean, that's the kind of conditional things were in. And then John was so upset that what he did is he,

he had already won the Pulitzer Prize. He'd won the Pulitzer Prize in literature for writing the definitive psychobiography of T.E. Lawrence, a Lawrence of Arabia. And so he had all kinds of contacts in the publishing rule. So he went and got the paper published. And it got published.

And the publisher named Abduction, you know, human contact with aliens. And he got dragged up in front of a tribunal at Harvard University in front of a faculty committee challenging his tenure, basically, or embarrassing Harvard University by writing about such a, you know, a completely discredited subject. And he contacted me. You ended up representing him. I ended up becoming his attorney and representing him in front of this faculty committee. And I was blessed because I, in that context, got to interview virtually all of the major experts in the world to come and testify at Harvard University to support John Mack.

And so I ended up getting to meet all of these people. So I got to meet Dr. Stanton Friedman. I got to meet, you know, Dr. Stephen Greer. I got to meet Linda Moulton Howe. I got to meet, you know, Bud Hopkins. I got to meet all of these, you know, Colonel Wendy Stevens, you know, all of these people that were the kind of experts in the world at that time to prepare them. But Harvard gave up.

Harvard freaked out. You started putting together a show. Yeah, they freaked out the prospect of having to have like a grand rounds at Harvard on the UFO. Yeah, that's like surprise you guys are hosting the UFO conference now on accident. So I ended up being made legal counsel to Dr. John Mack's group you put together called the Project on Extraordinary Experience Research. It's the famous peer group in Cambridge. So we got to interview dozens and dozens of very credible people who had had these. kind of direct contact experiences.

And so because of that, I was later contacted by Dr. Stephen Greer. And he asked me to become legal counsel, general counsel, to the disclosure project, which I was for 20 years. Let me pause you real quick, because I know this is moving fast. I want to circle way back to the symbols on this craft. I've been dying to know more about that since you said it. What were these symbols? Well, they, what they were was it along the bottom of the dome.

of the craft that was stuck in this embankment. You can see it sticking up, I said it's this 45 degree angle. Yeah. There were these symbols that were along the bottom of the dome were connected to the disc part of the craft. And what they were was a series of lines, like horizontal lines like this that were at different angles in that they had on either side of each line

certain dashes and dots in little horseshoe shape symbols like slashes slashes with dots almost like a percentage sign it looked like a little horseshoes and also little dots

and dashes you know and so there was obviously some sort of language or some sort but it wasn't anything it wasn't like hieroglyphics it wasn't Chinese or Russian or anything like that

it was no known language that I'd ever seen or still have never seen. What was it like for you seeing this stuff? I mean, I don't know what you believed about this before, but I'm sure it's hard to shock you at a certain point. But this is something different than government. I had always been confident that there were other planets, you know, even though it's only been the last 25 years or so, that the scientific community is even acknowledged that there were any planets anywhere outside of our solar. system in the entire universe because they couldn't see them.

And they couldn't measure them. They couldn't weigh them. You know, they couldn't see what color they are. You know, so that they just pretended they didn't exist until they came into their scientific paradigm. You know, and so, but I untutored as I was as a child, I said, oh, once I found out what stars were that they were actually sons, you know, of other rounds, and I said, oh, well, they must have planets going around them like we do. You know, and there must be people on those other posts.

There's like tens of millions of them. They must exist. So I was always fairly confident that it was true. And I'd follow different pieces of information. Well, I heard about the Betty and Barney Hill case, you know. And I'd heard about Roswell. And, you know, because I've been reading about all this stuff, I wasn't at all surprised that it was true.

You know, and I wasn't even surprised. that they had a program going who tried to recover them. So that when I saw, I was surprised enough to bring it back to Jesuit headquarters and to show them what we had. And then I was surprised to know that Father William Davis

had a photograph of a UFO that he'd gotten from what he viewed to be an entirely credible source directly from this pilot. He was the best friend of his brother-in-law. when you when you were interviewing these people who were treated by john mack was there any patterns

to their experiences or things that stuck out to you wasn't any doubt about it at all you know i mean in fact that's what john was looking for john was trying to figure out whether there was some sort of pattern uh of things here and and it was it was absolutely clear you know that most of the people uh most of the people had uh had had this encounter happened in their home that somehow these beings would show up, you know, in their bedroom, usually at night, you know. And that's what caused a lot of people to say, oh, this must be some kind of nightmare that people were having or some kind of sneak paralysis that they were experiencing. You know, but the fact of the matter is this is an intimate setting that they would show up in.

There were certain cases where a person would be driving along the highway at night, usually, and they would see a craft, you know, actually come and land in a field. And then they couldn't remember it. They couldn't remember exactly what had happened, but they were very troubled by it because there was an entire block of time that they couldn't remember. And so that they started seeking psychological counseling because they'd become so anxious about this experience that they had. And that's how the information started drifting through to John Mack at Harvard as the head of the Department of Clinical Psychiatry. And so there were a whole series of these cases. And I got to interview dozens of these people, you know,

because part of what I was doing was helping to vet these potential witnesses for Dr. Matt and for the project for extraordinary experience research. You know, we just wanted to deal with people who were very credible and had confirmed information from other family members, et cetera, that this had happened to them. And so that I was, John was looking for, or patterns. And so he would, when the person was telling their story, he would slow them way down. He, he had them do this kind of relaxing breathing.

It wasn't hypnosis, but it was this, get them, there's a thing called, what they call it, so anyway, a whole breathing exercise that they would do. And holotropic breathing, they call it. And they would get into this very calm state, and it made them better capable of remembering details. without any anxiety. And so they would start to assemble what had happened to them. And he would ask them sidebar questions. He said like, okay, you're in this craft.

Look around now. Tell me what you see. And they would start to describe things. He'd ask you a little minute details. Like, okay, you're getting examined on this medical table. What does the equipment look like? You know, tell me where the equipment is in the room. What kind of instruments do they have?

He would ask all these kind of inventors. investigatory things. And he was stunned to discover how similar all these things were from people who'd never talk to each other. And we had never had any kind of contact with anybody. And so that's what motivated him to actually write this article for the Indian Journal of Medicine. He found this to be absolutely fascinating. What kind of things did they describe? The common experience, most common experiences that a person is home and in bed, And all of a sudden, they get the sense that someone else is in the room with that. And they wake up, and there is one or more of these beings.

And they can be anywhere from three and a half feet tall to like five feet tall. But they're large, large expanded heads, brain cases. You know, big, big huge almond-shaped eyes that open, go all the way to the big. back with the side of their temples so that when they turn their head around like this, they can see 360 degrees around them, in that they have long, long arms that hang down kind of below their knees. They've got three fingers. They've got a head and a trunk and legs and feet, you know,

and they're a humanoid kind of beings, but they can definitely tell they're not human. And then all of a sudden, the people are elevated up out of the, their bed and are floated out of the room. And off times, virtually all times, they're floated right through the wall, right through the ceiling. And they find themselves drifting up into the air, and they see themselves being brought into this big craft, a big saucer-shaped craft, and that they find themselves inside the craft in this room with tables. And it's like a

medical examining table in their, just like in a doctor's office. You know, take your clothes off, get up on the table, you know, breathe deeply, you know. And so they're examined. And they find themselves being examined like, you know, like a lab animal of some sort. And then they find themselves back in their bed. And they wake up in the morning and totally confused. they can't then most of the time they start out by thinking

this had to be some kind of just a bad dream you know but then they discover things like a little piece of flesh cut out of their leg or something like that or their buttocks that they've got some kind of physical exam has been conducted on them that they didn't have any memory of and what we also discovered is that a person who has such an experience usually has repeated experiences like that. It's not just once that this happens to them,

but this happens in some kind of a pattern. And so we started asking people questions, and John was, of course, attending to most of these people, assisting them in sort of having a calm, increased recollection of things that happened. And he started to compile notes on these things. And so that once we got through pushing back against that faculty committee at Harvard, and they basically stepped back because they definitely did not want to have this grand rounds about the issue of UFOs at Harvard. And he had the repair group operating in Cambridge.

We continued to function all the way until John got accidentally killed in England. He got hit by a drunk taxi cab driver because John stepped off the curb looking in the wrong direction, you know, and got hit by this car in 2004. But throughout that entire time, from 1994 to 2004, that whole 10-year period that I was working with John. And John had come to the understanding that there was this event that took place at Harvard. the bizarre response that they have to him simply writing this book and in publishing it, you know, dragging him up in front of this tribunal and basically violating every single concept of academic freedom and even threatening his tenure, you know, at Harvard University of all places in the world. You know, this was so traumatic to him that he basically ended up

writing a book. It's never been published. I have the copy of it. He gave it to me to vet it, you know, called the clash of worldviews. You know, or when worldviews collide. That's what he named it. It's a takeoff on Balakowski's, you know, famous book, When Worlds Collide. And he did an account of his whole experience that he had at Harvard and called it, you know, a clash of worldviews. And so he and I, when he ended up being killed,

2004, or 2004, he and I were in the process of talking about establishing there in Cambridge, ideally at Harvard University, a new paradigm institute, a world, we call it the worldview institute. We try to compare and contrast different human worldviews in response to the UFO experience because we were convinced that it was inevitable that there was going to come a point in time when it was going to be publicly revealed that our United States government was in possession of one or more of these craft that actually recovered bodies from these craft.

We realized that that could be true. And so that we wanted to get the academic community, just like we tried earlier to get the religious community to kind of turn to grips with this. Let me say, why don't we get out ahead of this? Well, I mean, the problem of the institution says that they're almost never out. ahead of anything.

They're into just institutionalizing what information is already known, and then they kind of start to pour into concrete, you know, and then they start being resistant to any kind of alternate change, even though the universities are theoretically the place for learning and advancing knowledge. But they're only willing to allow this tiny, tiny incremental increases in knowledge, because they don't want to disrupt the institution. on which the entire society rests, in its culture and its values,

its economic structures, et cetera, and that's what we're encountering here. There's such a reluctance to accept of something that is so completely revolutionary that the institutions are refusing to cooperate so far, including Congress, has taken us all this time. I mean, we've presented over 40

deep inside experts on the existence of this crash retrieval program, the back engineering that they're engaged in, trying to back engineer the technology of the crap, they've got bodies that they've recovered. They've recovered live beams from these crap and they've interviewed them, you know, and that they're lying about it. They're concealing all of this because they perceive it

as such an incredible threat to the kind of institutional structures that are in place religiously, culturally, economically, you know, scientifically. And so there's this incredible hypocrisy that's going on right now. Yeah, I think, let me ask you this too, because there's like, I have, I'm sure a lot of people out there experience this, like, where your brain kind of splits on, like, reacting to this information. Like, on one hand, part of me, you know, thinks that. well, you know better than anybody how powerful the government can be in terms of like placing disinformation or taking advantage of confusion, fear, things like that to build the military or just disguise what they do. But then also part of me wonders like, you know, our government is also kind of disorganized and dumb. Like I wonder at times like could they really pull off concealing such a thing, right? Like how do you deal with those questions? and how does disinformation come up in the context of your work?

Well, you can see. I mean, this entire process that we're going through right now is a function of the national security state has been established. At the end of World War II, the people in positions in power, both in the Republican and Democratic Party, at the end of World War II, combined together to decide that what they were going to do is they were going to established the United States government as the dominant power on the planet that other countries had been so devastated in the war. I mean, all of Europe sort of lay in ruins. Russia had lost over 20 million people killed.

Germany was flat on its butt because we bombed into oblivion, basically. We had flattened the Japanese Empire. And so the United States, the ruling elite inside the United States, the ruling elite inside the United States government and in the business community decided that this was a golden opportunity to establish full spectrum dominance over the planet to be in charge of the entire economic and military and cultural future of the planet. And so that they established this national security state pursuant to the National Security Act of 1947 and it created the Central Intelligence Agency, which was actually, interesting enough,

the recommendation of the senior partners at Brown Brothers Heroming, a major private investment corporation in New York, where a lot of the robber barren families from the 1890s had actually established kind of economic power over most of the areas of the economy. You know, they dominated the shipping industries, the railroad industries, the iron and steel, the agricultural domains. I mean, these these dozen are. so powerful, wealthy families. The, you know, the Vanderbilt's in the Mellons and the Rockefellers and the, you know, that there's a whole series.

And this is a whole era that's taught even in high schools. I say even in high schools, we'll admit, you know, there was a robber barren era. And they came together and formed this major joint private investment collective called Brown Brothers Harriman. And these are the. the people who actually recommended to President Truman at the end of World War II that there be a central intelligence agency established. And it was perfectly clear that the purpose of the Central Intelligence Agency was to basically

facilitate this establishment of full spectrum military dominance over the planet. And that's what we've been engaged in. And so the United States, leadership, in both the Republican and Democratic Party, have been dedicated to the maintenance of that type of supremacy ever since the end of World War II. And so they have used that power to establish this entire veil of secrecy over not just their military technology in the development of different types of military weaponry, etc. But, you know, they've been engaged in spying on all the other countries of the world, wiretapping, you know, their phones and sending spies and infiltrate them to basically guard. And then they point to the fact that other people are doing it. Oh, well, Russia is spying on us or China is spying us.

Well, I mean, Russia and China were spying on us in 1945. They were both flat on their ass. You know, I mean, the United States is the one that started doing this. and it's generated a response on their part, which we then use as a justification for doing even more of it. And so we've gotten into this kind of a solipsistic kind of relationship with these people. So that's what this is a function of. So we have to deal with that in order to get at the information regarding the UFOs. And if one can believe it, the fact that they're concealing the fact that there's an entire extraterrestrial civilization all around.

around us. You know, they're trying to treat us like we're some sort of Aboriginal tribe on a little island in Fiji or something in the middle of the Pacific Ocean that doesn't realize that there's an entire world going on around them, you know? All right. We'll be right back after this quick break. Let me ask you this too, because like I know a lot of my friends who have gone all the way in on UFOs and then kind of like go so far in that they come out the other side and arrive at this idea that you know what, I don't believe in it anymore because I think this is all a government conspiracy. They've made it up the entire time to make us look crazy and to just, you know, have a huge military budget or can cover up whatever nefarious thing they were working on at

the time, you know, as a distraction. The reality of it is, is that it, I mean, I've, I guess I can say with some modesty, you know, that we have become at our institute some of the best experts on what conspiracies really look like. I mean, you punched through. I was the one that represented the New York Times as part of the team to get all 47 volumes of the Pentagon papers disclosed were the ones that investigated the Watergate burglary and came to really realize what was really going on there, you know, et cetera. You know, the fact of the matter is that we've been able to penetrate those conspiracies that they were engaged in.

And so that we really can understand what is really a conspiracy and what isn't. And the problem is that people who are, if you're forgiving to saying so, amateurs at this, as soon as they start to discover that there's a capacity of one to a hundred, as soon as they discover that there's a capacity of 25 out of 100 of the government engaging conspiracies, they lose all competence in kind of reality. And they say, oh, this is so like a hall of mirrors that they're capable of anything. Well, they're not capable of everything. They're not capable of everything.

That's how we find out about stuff all the time. You know, they would have to be creating these fake beings, little three and a half foot. They'd have to recruit a thousand midgets or something to, you know, to dress up in clown suits like these little fake heads on and stuff and somehow sneak into your bedroom and then his, the tithetanity you into thinking you'd been, you know, lifted through the ceiling, you know, they'd have to, you know, put these little, cut little pieces of your flesh out and leave scars.

There's a, there's 10,000 things that they would have to do. I mean, and the fact is these people are not that competent. They're not to pull off something extraordinary like that. And so you have to be, you have to be careful when you start to, when you start to discover that, It's like you discover, you know, you grow up, you discover the Santa Claus isn't real, you know. Okay. But that doesn't mean that everything your parents have ever taught you is a lie, you know? You don't have to just to pull your hair out as soon as you discover that the simple view of reality that you once had isn't entirely true.

Yeah, that's just basically lazy thinking is what that is. You know, and if you study this and learn how to undertake critical thinking, You can move step by step into parsing out what is true and what isn't true. And that's what we've done. That's what the Institute is for. And that's why we've existed since basically 1980, we've existed for all this time and have done all these different cases where we can actually discern real conspiracies and how deeply they go and where they stop. So tell me this. Tell me more about the recovery of bodies, crafts, and potentially interviewing beings. First of all, what makes you believe that? And then secondly, who are the ones conducting these things? Is it the government or is it like contractors?

Well, it's contractors and government agents together because the contractors by definition derive their authority through the contracts that they have with the United States government. government, in the United States government, grants to them security clearances, puts them into possession of certain technology, and then covers it in secrecy, and then rewards them by giving them these huge no-bid contracts, right, that they can get. And so that what causes me to be convinced that they've recovered these bodies, for example, I got contacted, you know, by a fellow, by the name of, Oscar Wolf, his name is, on his deathbed. This is a decade ago, more, that he was dying. He lived up in northern Minnesota. He contacted me by phone and asked me to come and see him because he was dying. I flew to see him and met with him in this hospital situation,

with all the tubes in his nose and feeling this little weird, all the bottles of things. And he told me in great detail about the fact that he was a clerk typist hired by or assigned to Project Blue Book. And he's the one that would stay in the office and the agents. And he was in the special unit that was investigating the 700 cases that Project Blue Book could not explain the way. You know, that they, the Blue Book published the parts of criticizing every report that they could attribute to somebody misidentifying Venus or, you know, or swamp gas or other, you know, flocks of birds or searchlights reflecting off the bottom of clouds, you know, and mistaking them for UFOs. And those are the ones that they talked about. But the fact is, there were 700 or so instances in which the evidence was so overwhelming.

And there were so many credible witnesses that had seen it, or they had film footage of it, or they had photographs of it that couldn't be disputed, that they couldn't cope with it. So they segregated all that out into a special unit to look into those things. This fellow, Ospre Wolf, was a clerk-taxed. That the people would go out and interview with the people who had been involved in that particular incident. They'd bring back all their notes and information, and they would give it to him, and he would compile the reports. He stayed in that program for years and years and years. And different investigators would come and go and get assigned to other duties, but he would stay. And it turns out that he was very close with the commander of that particular unit.

They were both members of the same extremely conservative fundamentalist Christian church called the Worldwide Church of God. And so they were quite close. And then the commander got invited to come to S4 out in Area 51. Area 51 out in Nevada, there's about 11 miles away. There's this other facility that is underground. And it's called S4. They call it the skunkerworts. It's a Lockheed Martin basically runs out.

And his commander was going there for a review of the site. went there with Oscar Wolf went with him. They go to the facility. They go to Area 51. They get driven this 11 miles through the desert to this other place. They go into this elevator and go down, down, down, down, down, down. You know, like, I don't know, like 24 or something. I mean, really serious place this thing is.

And he actually saw UFOs there that were captured and they were just floating. Each of them had their own little garage like that they were in, this little area that were just floating in anti-gravity air. And then he went to the place where there was this big room with kind of two-way mirrors in the room. And you could see this UFO guy, you know, this ET guy there. He's like, he's like five and a half feet tall. He had him in this kind of big jumpsuit that they had him in.

And he was just standing there in this room. And his commander went in, invited Oscar. to come in with him, but Oscar was afraid of it. He said he thought it was demonic, you know, and he didn't want to go near it. But his commander went in, and he saw his commander there communicating with this being, you know, telepathically. And the Oscar stayed outside, and the people that were in charge of the facility started showing him these cards.

They had these index cards that had notes in them from, interviews that they'd conducted, these telepathic interviews that they conducted with this ET being. And the ET guy was completely friendly. You know, he was cooperative. He wasn't being, you know, they weren't pulling his fingernails out, you know, and, you know, and threatening him or, you know, waterboarding him or anything. They were, they were questioning.

And he was quite cooperative. And they, they, they, one of them, he told me, said, he read one of the cards that said, you know, the people ask him, you know, who are you? guys and what are you doing here? And he said that he was part of this cadre of people that had been brought together and upon this task force that had been tasked to go around inside our galaxy to different planets where life had actually been gestated and it was actually evolving. And then they were checking out what the status was of the evolution of life on these different planets. And then they would be reporting them. And the follow-up question was,

well, really, who is it that asked you to do this? And he said, well, you people would refer to it as God. Well, it's very different than you think. And then he said, so Oscar Wolfe said, and I never told anybody, because I didn't believe him. I didn't believe him. I thought he was lying. I thought he was a demonic being. And so I wouldn't tell, and I haven't told anybody about this. And there he is on his deathbed. He decided to call me because I think he did because he found out that I'd been at Jesuit headquarters. And I was going to be a priest for 10 years. And so he wanted to confide this in me.

And so it was sort of like with Father Bill Davis's brother-in-law, say, here, give this photo to your brother. He's a priest. Like, you know, as if there was some profoundly religious metaphysical, physical secret that was involved here that had to be explored by priests and in religious beliefs. This is, you know, kind of off script, I guess, with my questions. But in hearing this, it's like really mind-boggling, just hearing concepts like that. Even though I host a show about the paranormal, I still find myself being skeptical sometimes. and when I hear something like that, I can't help but wonder, like, if this is true and if we've

communicated with advanced beings, like, why is everything so bad? Like, why are our rivers still filled with trash? Like, why do we have these fossil fuel cars? Like, why have we not learned anything from this? The question, Jack, is really bound up in the use of the term we. Why is it that we're kept in the dark like this? Why is it that we're subject to having to pay, you know, you know, $50 for a tank of gas? You know, why is it that the cars that were offered somehow coincidentally make a certain elite super wealthy?

You know, why is it that, you know, that they're in charge? Why is it that they're running corporations that are pumping sewage into the river? Why is it that they're pumping chemicals into the air? Why is it that they are getting away with this? And the fact is that they have always gotten away with it. There's this group of people that come together who find themselves to either born very, very wealthy, or they happen to be relatives of someone who's very, very industrious and entrepreneurial, and they made lots of money, or they're real smart.

They're real smart. But the problem is, is that they use their intelligence to try to get over on everybody else. And they want to get some extreme advantage over everybody else. And that they end up, you know, being recruited into this elite group. I mean, I was, my father was the first Sheean man in the, our Sheean man, ever to graduate from high school. You know, and I ended up getting a full boat scholarship to Harvard College. And then to Harvard Law School, then go to Harvard Divanian. school and I got to, when I arrived there, I found all these people that had gone to

Chote into Exeter and Andover, you know, and their grandfathers had all gone to Harvard and their fathers went to Harvard. And we were all being basically recruited to take part of and be part of this one percent elite, you know, and train us to go and be the lawyers for their corporations and to run their corporations and to run the banks, et cetera. And you start to get a look at, you know, this idea that they have that is somehow people who are smarter or who are wealthier, who are more skilled ought to be given special privileges that are commensurate with their perceived levels of superiority and that everybody else is just subject to their wins. And that what they do is they force us to participate either as employees in their companies

for some tiny fraction of the profits that are made by the company, they share with the workers. And you know and I know, they give them as little as they can get away with, and that they keep as much as they possibly can. And that we in the we, with the small W, who are the victims of this whole process, have been struggling for hundreds and hundreds of years

to try to organize our, ourselves to push back to be able to participate in a more egalitarian way in the decision-making that goes on about the public. And we here in the United States at least believe that we have had the advantage of having been donated, basically, by the founding fathers a certain privilege to participate in the decision-making. and that we can therefore logically pursue our own interests as well. But, of course, that governing elite has never given up.

You know, Alexander Hamilton basically represented most of them, the mercantile class, the bankers and, you know, the Tories that were basically the royalists. And it's not surprising. I mean, we all know about it. We all know about the history of royalist families in Europe, you know, they came together in 1625, I think it was, and assigned the Treaty of Westphalia, you know, a breed divide up all of Europe into these kingdoms

and these royal families would be allowed to rule. We know at the end of World War I, for example, there was a thing that was called the Churchill Commission, in Winston Churchill, who was the Secretary of Colonial Affairs for the United Kingdom, at the end of World War I had a big panel of 22 people and decided just to divide all of the former Persian Empire, you know, that was owned, run by Turkey, into these little nation states that had never existed there. That didn't work out too well. They imposed these little boxes.

Okay, here's Saudi Arabia, here's Lebanon, you know, here. And then they would pick one of the tribes, one of the tribes that had been living there for 10,000 years, and make them the king. And then they would supply all kinds of military equipment to them and military counselors to them in exchange for that royal family agreeing to let them have 90% of all the wealth with their oil. And we know these things, but it's right straight in your face. And everybody goes, gee, I wonder why those people are still acting that way. And they're acting that way because we're letting them get away with them. And what we need to do is organize. And that's why this thing with the UFO stuff, so many people are so intensely interested in whether or not we have this entire extraterrestrial civilization of non-human beings all around us in our galaxy.

And that they have access to this extremely advanced technology, technology with which we could have free energy, that we don't have to pay the technology. petroleum people. You know, we don't have to, we don't have to invade the Middle Eastern oil fields, you know, at the end of the Cold War and in attempt to lay claim to, and then go, oops, I guess we're wrong. I guess Saddam Hussein didn't have nuclear weapons. Well, that's all right. You know, we'll just stay here and control the oil fields coincidentally. You know, I mean, and people who haven't had an opportunity to be educated in the same schools where they educate their young, aren't there that we're kind of suspicious that that's what's going on

but we don't know it like I do let me ask you this that was a deathbed confession from this guy do you have any other evidence that we have recovered crafts oh yeah that was pretty vivid like like this guy is

is an ET walking around and close no no there are there are well for example Jay Stratton Jay Stratton who was the head of Aalc, which is the Advanced Weapons Special Access Program in the United States Pentagon, has in this new documentary that is called Age of Disclosure that has been viewed only once. It was shown at a film festival down in Austin, Texas, a couple months ago.

But it's going to be released publicly. There are 33 top secret cleared government officials who are all testifying now. And he has said, I have personally. stood in the room and seen a non-human origin extraterrestrial spacecraft. And I have seen the extraterrestrial beings. I've seen them myself. So he's saying that. And we're getting them now.

And we've got 40 people that have gone in and testified to the Senate Intelligence Committee behind closed doors under oath in sworn depositions to be interrogated by the staff, telling them about the existence of this crash retrieval program and that we are in possession of not just one, but as many as nine or more, non-human origin extraterrestrial spacecraft. Okay? And that we're in possession of the beings

that have been proven by DNA testing to not be human. I mean, and they've said it right there. They've testified right about, now you can take that extra step and say, yeah, but you can't believe anything the government says. But the fact is you can always believe someone if they're testifying directly contrary to their own interests. Because people don't usually make up lies. They're contrary to their own interests.

And so these people are doing this when they've come forward and they're testifying about it. And they've said they've, for example, David Grush, David Grush has said it. then look, when Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, one of the most progressive members of Congress, questioned Dave Grush on July 16th of 2003, right, in the open hearing in front of the House Oversight Committee, she said, well, where are these crap? You know, who's got these scraps and where can we see them? He says, I can tell you. You want to talk to me?

I know exactly where they are. I can give you the exact location. I can basically take you to them. You know, and the problem is they aren't going there. You know, they're not doing it yet. I'm going to, I'm going to speak very honestly about this. I know you work with these people, but me as a civilian watching that whistleblower hearing, that was frustrating for me because I remember seeing that night.

I remember him thinking, like, I could tell you, like, not here. I'll talk to you privately. For me, I'm like, hey, if you're going to blow the whistle, blow the whistle. Like, I'm waiting. I want to hear it. I felt like it was like a half whistleblowing situation, and that was frustrating and confusing to me. Yeah.

And maybe skeptical. I said, I went right up to AOC afterwards. I said, you know, you want his phone number? You know, here it is. I'll give you his phone number. I said the same thing to Greenie Grayie. I mean, she's a beautiful woman. She might have been suspicious that you guys know.

Oh, no, no. She knows me. You know. He knows me. I'm not the favorite son of the Central Intelligence. Call me out there. She knows who I am. So they've got the information.

And the problem is that the people that are elected in Congress are all trying to figure out, well, okay, now we're getting the information. Now what do we do with it? And the first thing they think of isn't just let's tell everybody. Let's just tell all the Americans about it so that they can all know what to vote for. You know, that they do themselves just halfway between the elite and the people, that they're sort of in the middle. They're sort of mediators, you know, in the Congress as to how to mediate the demands and interests of the rich and powerful and elite, you know, between them and we who are among the great unwashed masses. You know, that's what their job is. There's so much information out there about this and like a lot of stuff that seems to be not credible.

It's kind of like a nonstop flood of information on the internet if you're trying to tune into this. Like, is that difficult for you? Because there seems to be so many false alarms that happen all the time. Part of what my particular training is to be able to distinguish between that and what's real. that's exactly what the that's what you get trained to do that's what you get trained to do and if you go to college you learn how to do critical thinking how to differentiate you know bullshit from from credible information you know you learn how to undertake careful study and check sources etc you know and then you go to law school and it gets even worse i mean you become kind of a fanatic you know about this

you know they tell they tell the famous story about oliver wendell holmes who was a big famous Harvard Law School professor and a later Supreme Court Justice. And he was a complete workaholic working seven days a week when he got onto the Supreme Court. And his wife, this is back in the 1880s, I think it was, when he was there. And so she just decided one spring morning that she was going to hook up the buckboard and put together a picnic lunch and go and get him some Sunday morning when he was overworking in the Congress building when they didn't even have a Supreme Court. building at that time. Anyway, she goes over and gets him, and she puts him in the buckboard and

said, we're going out for a Sunday afternoon. We're going to go out in the country and have a picnic. And so they're driving along in the buckboard, and she looks over and she says, oh, look, Ollie, somebody has shown all the wool off those sheep over there. And Aldo Wendell Holmes turned and looked, and he said, no, my dear, the most that we can say is somehow the wool has been removed from the side of the sheep that we can see. Right? And so she just turned the buckboard around and brought him back and kicked him out and went and ate the lunch herself. Because he had been trained, he had been trained to not leap to conclusions. Don't go any farther than the evidence really supports.

And now, well, on the one hand, that's a very important training if you're trying to differentiate between bullshit and things that are really credible and things that you can really confirm by direct knowledge. Okay, but the fact of the matter is the scientific logical, logical positivist worldview, you know, goes like that. And so that's why up until 25 years ago, they wouldn't acknowledge that there were any other planets anymore in the entire universe, other than our solar system. And so that there are pluses and minuses to that kind of thinking. But we have to, those of us who are professional investigators and lawyers, have to be able to discern what is information is credible and what isn't. you know, we need to be very careful. But we now have psychological stress evaluators now. There's a device that is available where you can record a person's answers to questions

and you can actually discern the tension in their vocal cords, which is completely involuntary in that they've not learned how to anybody to fake out one of these machines so that there are people that are going to be trained to beat a regular lie detector. but they haven't been trained to be able to beat these things. And so we have access to those. And so we can put a person on a psychological stress evaluator and determine not only whether they're lying, but exactly what is they're lying about.

And so with a trained PSC operator, you can actually interrogate a person or take their deposition under oath and discern what they're saying that's true and what isn't true. And so that we have the case. of conducting these kinds of investigations now. And that's what we're doing.

And that's what the New Paradigm Institute is doing with regard to the UFO thing now. And we believe that over the past 50 years that I in our institute have established enough of a record, you know, of being able to uncover genuine conspiracies and to apply Rule 11 to determine what we believe we can actually get discovered in a, you know, litigation and bring a case before a jury and win and have that be established as the truth that you can put a pin in that and move from there. And that's what we're doing. You know, that's what the New Paradigm Institute is all about. Have you had any further experiences yourself? I really am fascinated by seeing that first photo in Project Blue Book. Have you had any experiences

or shown anything since then that have made you, you know, or that has further confirmed your beliefs? Well, it doesn't really require much further confirming. Sure, sure, but I'm just curious, you know. I know that they exist. I know that I've talked to, you know, I've talked to half a dozen. Or let me rephrase that anything that has excited you, personal experiences, or seeing things, going to places.

Well, I'm trying to think if I've been that excited about it. I mean, I'm interested in it. I mean, I'm more fascinated when somebody, when, like, David Grush, I talked to David Grush long before he testified, right? You know, I got an introduction to David Grush by Lou Elizando. And, you know, I talked to Lou Elizando, and I've talked with Gras and I've talked with Gras and I've talked with all kinds of people that have been deeply involved in the program. And I've been able to compare and contrast things that people have said.

I've been able to investigate and find out what positions they actually held. So what would they really have that access to? So I've been going carefully through this whole process of getting to. I'll be excited when we finally have a public announcement of the details and get access to all of the internal information that is already there so that I'll be happy when there's enough information and evidence to be able to convince other people. So that the vast majority of our population can be convinced so we can mandate through our organized action that our representatives do something about this. And then we formulate the policies and the protocols.

We need to deal with these extraterrestrial beings. You know, we have to have a treaty that the nation states, the 193 nation states that are on our planet, all pursuant to the Treaty of Westphalia, like 1620. you know, that we ought to have a treaty that prohibits the utilization of any of the technology that we recover from these craft being used for weapons, you know? Yes. These are very concrete things. We need to adjust our economy to be able to absorb a potential new energy source that is going to completely overwhelm the need for petroleum, you know?

And there's an entire huge petroleum industry. It's going to have to readjust. there are tens of thousands of people that are employed by that industry that need to be retrained, you know, that there's a, that there's the petroleum dollar. The United States dollar is the petroleum ballot. It's based upon the price of petroleum. You know, this is a major economic impact that nobody is preparing for. No, and not only that, if we had unlimited power, that would really skyrocket AI and pretty

much eliminate all the jobs. Most likely, you know, it would be very accelerated. But the problem is, is that nobody is doing the work that's necessary to prepare for this because they're being lied to by government circle saying there's no such thing. It's just not true, you know, and so that nobody wants to spend their time, you know, wasting their time preparing for something that they're being told isn't true. And so we have to get past that step. have you have you had a difficult time

convincing the public to take this seriously have there been obstacles well yeah well it's interesting that we we tend to encounter self-selected audiences you know i mean we go we go to a place to talk to everybody you know i just i just had a just this past weekend i went and talked to a place there were 2,000 people you know in this in this big

auditorium you know up in northern oregon but the place was packed. There were like 15,000 people came for this weekend, for discussing the UFOs. But it's kind of a self-selected audience, but that's a lot of people who are really interested in this. We're getting set to go to the contact in the desert. The contact in the desert,

down in Palm Desert is going to have, I don't know, they're going to have probably four or five thousand people there. We've got, we've got 12, we got 120, 1,200. We got 1,200 people, 1,200 people have contacted us offering to volunteer to work for us and with us for free, you know, to help get out this information, you know, so this is building. This is what it looks like when it works, when it's working. This is like baking a cake.

You know, you have to go one step at a time, one ingredient at a time. And that's what we're doing. We've been successful in a dozen cases down through the last 50 years, or we're digging out very difficult information to obtain, putting it together and assembling it and putting it in front of juries and getting juries to conclude that it's true, always in the face of government officials denying that it's true. You seem to have access to things before it officially comes out.

Are there certain things that you know? know or that exist that you hope will officially come out in the future, but you can't talk about yet? The things that I can't talk about yet? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I will.

Like, for example, like for example, the fact that the United States intelligence agencies in this group called Immaculate Constellation have actually been reaching out to military families and intelligence community families to find their children who might be psychic, you know, and bringing them into a special training program so that they can communicate telepathically with the extraterrestrial beings.

You know? So that's a whole program so that there's lots of records around about that that are all top secret, you know, and that there's a whole bunch, there's a school out at the property that's owned by, what is it, Norton.

North of Bremen. Yeah, North of Bremen. Has a property in southwestern United States where, actually, where Jake Barber was picking up those eggs and stuff, you know, that they have, and that they've got a school there with kids, with children from military and, in the, intelligence community families, and others from civilians that they've done testing to find young kids that are kind of psychic.

And they brought them there at the little school. And they've hired their parents to come and feed them and train them and take care of them. You know, there's a whole facility there. You know, there's another one that there's almost certainly an underwater base for these UFOs just off Baja. It's just this side of Guadalupe Island. We know the exact longitude and latitude of the location. They've recorded over 100 different UFOs, you know, plunging into the ocean right at that point in time, you know, with no splash at all in going over 200 miles an hour under the water,

going right down to a particular location at the bottom of the ocean. Apparently is within this big mountain range that's underneath the ocean. And they have these big valleys in the mountain range and down in one of these valleys is a major. your base of UFOs. And they know this. You know, they, they, they had an entire aircraft carrier group deployed to monitor it, you know. And they're lying about it. They're just concealing it and treating us like mushrooms, you know, keeping you in the dark and

feeding you shit. I mean, they consider us a bunch of mushrooms, you know, the regular people. And they don't think that we're entitled to know about this. And that they just think that this is one of the oldest things in the world, Jack, is there's this elite that always rises to the surface in almost every generation, buoyed by previous generations having done the same thing, of believing that they are the 1% of the human population who are entitled to decide what policies are going to be prolongated and implemented in the world,

you know, and that they just lord it over everybody else. And we, the people, have to rise up and we have to organize ourselves, we have to educate ourselves, and we have to utilize the democratic institutions that we still have available to us here in this country and to some extent in other countries, the U.K. and Australia and the 5A or 5I companies, or nation states rather, and organize and use every single tool that we still have at our disposal to take. take over control of our own world, you know, before they give it over to somebody else, personally to some kind of arrangement that they're keeping completely secret from us, you know? So what is the next step for you with all of these projects with the disclosure and like everything you're working on? Well, the next step is to get the United States Senate to repass the 64-page bill that they passed back in 2020.

It's called the Schumer Rounds, UFO or UAP Control Disclosure Act. You know, we've got to get them to repass that between now and the middle of July. All right? And then we've got to send that bill over to the House side, and we've got to get

the House of Representatives to agree. They've only passed 23 pages of that 64-page bill so far, okay, which they did in 2023, which is ordered all six of the United States military services, all 18 of the United States intelligence agencies, all 32 of the United States Defense Department agencies to gather together every single

piece of information they have about UFOs and the non-human intelligence that is responsible for them to gather, to gather all of that information together, compile it in a digital format with a searchable index, which they're under present command from the United States Congress, signed by the President of the United States to do and have prepared by October of this year. And then they're ordered to turn that over to the National Archives as soon as possible. Now, that's a wiggle phrase because the Senate bill said they had to turn it over immediately on October 20th of last year. But the forces pushing back as the October 20th date started to arrive last year, they got the National Archives who issue an order allowing them to wait one more year.

And so it's now coming up again, and they've given them, I think, the September 30th deadline to have it all prepared to hand over. But they still are not under a command to do it immediately. So we've got to get the United States House of Representatives to add a modification of that previous bill to have them turn it over immediately this year, and we need to get the House side to approve the remainder of the 64 pages, which actually sets up a nine-person review board

to review all of that information once it's turned over to the National Archives in its classified section, and so that the people in the Congress with adequate clearances can see it and review it, and then this nine-person panel is under orders in the rest of that Senate bill to publicly release

all of the information that is 25 years old or older, which goes all the way back to Roswell, goes all the way back to Trinity, goes all the way back to the Betty and Barney Hill case. You know, who were the officers that were sent to meet with Betty and Barney

Hill? You know, who are the ones that kept all the secrets? So all that information is there in that, you know, that we can get at it. So we're the brink as of this October of ostensibly being provided 25 years, well, actually 70 years of information, basically, that dates all the way back to 1945. January 1st of 1945. They are under orders, standing orders, to gather all of that information together. And so people aren't aware of it, But that we've got to get the House of Representatives to agree to the other part of the Senate bill that is appointing this panel that is going to order the release of all of that.

So there's extraordinarily important things that are happening right now that people are unaware of. Our job at the New Paradigm Institute, in addition to getting everybody mobilized to compel the House of Representatives to approve this bill, our job is to get ready to start nominating people for that panel. our new paradigm institute is one of the three citizen groups that are being asked who nominate people to that board. And so that we want to be able to reach out to regular citizens to get them to participate in recommending members of that panel. Because we're authorized to help nominate people to give those names to the president. What makes a good candidate for that panel? Well, they've actually put in the Senate bill certain criteria. that one of the people has to have got had directives it cannot be no it nobody can be on the panel that have been briefed in in detail into the legacy group that already know about it and have been lying and concealing it but you can't have them got it which is that one of the persons has to be a person who has experience in the uh in the intelligence community to be able to know where the skeletons are to know how to probe into that whole area a second person has to be familiar with the defense

Department and all the military services to know where to look for the information. One of the other people, the third person has to be a scientist, a physicist, or a scientist that is capable of doing scientific evaluation. Another person has to be an historian that can figure out how to put together the historical archives of what it is we've got. There's criteria that's set. Or of the nine of them, one of them has to be the chair. of this. But then there's like three at-large appointments that aren't required to be restricted

to people with certain qualifications. And that means that those are open nominations. And I'm proposing that there'd be a constitutional scholar assigned so that they can set up a process that is completely respectful of our constitutional framework of the authority of Congress to oversee the activities of these executive branches, et cetera. And I've recommended the appointment of Lawrence Tribe from Harvard, who was my particular constitutional law professor and is considered by virtually everyone to be the ranking constitutional scholar of the United States constitutional law. Now, of course, much more conservative people rankable at that and go, oh, Lawrence

tribe, he's actually said bad things about Donald Trump. you know so if we nominate him Donald Trump is never going to appoint him and even the statute authorizes the president to make the appointments you know ultimately whoever we nominate you know

so that now that may well get modified you know we we if the president refuses to appoint such a panel in defies Congress which we don't think he will because Trump President Trump has announced a number of times

that he's perfectly in favor of revealing all of this information. You know, so he could, ironically enough, end up becoming the disclosure present. You know? I like the, I think that's a great list of the panel and the roles. But what about an extra person who's not so qualified? Maybe it's just like a podcaster from Los Angeles, but he's really nice. And he kind of keeps the vibes in the mood up. Only if his name were Jack, to start with.

Yes, I mean, I was thinking that. We want to craft this to be as openness to can, but there need to be some minimal qualifications like that. And of course, we need a salary and everything, but that would be worked out. Yeah. Well, Danny, this is so fascinating. I'm so excited to hear that maybe things might be coming out at this September October deadline.

It's required under the present law. But the problem is we saw them, right, when it's, started to come time to do it last year. They just exercise their power behind the scenes and had one of the executive offices, that is the National Archives, you know, issue a reprieve for these guys. So, you know, we have to organize ourselves to stop that from happening again. And that is going to require citizen pressure. That's why, you know, we ask everybody who hears us, you know, say, look, go to new paradigm institute.org. New Paradine. Institute.com. New Parad IMINSTUTTOR and sign up to become part of citizens for disclosure.

And citizens for disclosure, we're going to have a team in every one of the 435 congressional districts so that we, and we've set up a special computer system that can customize and craft letters to go to each one of those 435 district predicated upon who their congressperson is and what the things are that they're interested in, what committees they sit on. We're the ones doing all of that work. We've got 12 people on full-time staff now doing this work. And people can go to new paradigm institute.org and get regular weekly updates on what the status is, on how progress is being made here, what the next steps are that we need them to do. We issue these action alerts to here's a particular thing. For example, we've got a

bill to enhance the protection of UFO whistleblowers that we've drafted a 15-page bill that we've submitted to Congress. We need to mobilize support for that. There are concrete details. The work of citizenship is more than just sitting and voting once every four years, you know, and that most people don't pay enough attention to these things. And we know that this particular subject matter is, got the highest levels of interest of almost anything that is in front of anybody,

and, in fact, it's the most bipartisan issue in the entire Congress right now. We got the bill, the 64-page bill passed in the Senate Intelligence Committee 17 to zero. You know, everybody on the Senate Intelligence Committee has voted to approve this bill. we got virtually unanimous support in the United States Senate from the most conservative to the most progressive members of the Senate. And we know that if we can get the bill put on the floor for a vote on the House side, that out of the 435 members of the House, we'll probably get 400 people to vote for this.

We've got to deal with Mike Johnson, who's the Speaker of the House, who has got pressure being put on him by the private aerospace court. operations that want to get patents on this technology so that they can own it and they can then license it to the United States government and make literally trillions of dollars for the next thousand years because they own the technology. And this is totally outrageous, you know, and it has to be stopped right now so that the people have to mobilize. And so that people need to go to the new, just new paradigm institute.

and sign up to become a member of citizens for disclosure. We'll get in touch with you. All you have to use put in your name and your zip code so that we know exactly what congressional district you're in so that we can craft the information that you want for you and provide it to you for free. That's what we're doing. Well, Danny, thank you so much for talking to me today. I hope you consider coming back on in September, October.

if this ends up coming out, I'd love to hear more in the future. And, you know, I'm rooting for you guys. I'm excited. I'm skeptical sometimes, but overall, I'm obviously hoping that this does come out, you know, because this is very interesting. And I think you do a great job of explaining why it's important, even for people who aren't typically interested in the UAP UFO stuff. I think people ought to be interested in the fact that there's an entire civilization in non-human peace all around us, coming and going, in fact, and having bases on our planet. I think people ought to pay attention to this. Absolutely. Well, Danny, thank you so much for talking to me, and folks, thank you for listening.

Terrific. Thank you, Jack. All right. Thank you so much to Danny Sheehan for speaking to me. Danny has a new show called Full Disclosure, UFOs, aliens, and cover-ups. which dives into the philosophical, theological, and public policy questions pertaining to the UFO phenomenon. Be sure to check that out. I certainly will be. Like I said, I am far from a UFO expert, and my views are constantly evolving.

I think my personal skepticism can be summed up in my not-so-elequently phrased question back there for Danny, which was something like, if we have alien technology and have indeed contacted advanced life forms, why is everything on Earth still so shitty? That kind of keeps me scratching my head, but like I said, there are a million ways to interpret this stuff. There are so many different beliefs about what UFOs might be, if they do exist, why they're here.

If they're here, it goes on and on. I am very open-minded and perhaps some of my questions will be answered after those upcoming deadlines that Danny was mentioning. I truly wish him and his team the best of luck with all of that. Godspeed Danny. Maybe he will be bringing us some long-awaited answers or information on this topic. Once again, check out his new show, Full Disclosure, and thank you so much for listening. Otherworld is executive producer. and hosted by myself, Jack Wagner.

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