Ottoman History Podcast - Astrologers and Authority in the Ottoman Empire

Episode Date: August 14, 2026

with A. Tunç Şen hosted by Maryam Patton | What did it mean to know the future in the early modern Ottoman Empire? And who had the authority to interpret the heavens? In this episode, A. Tunç Şen discusses his new book Forgotten Experts: Astrologers, Science, and Authority in the Ottoman Empire, 1450–1600. Şen takes us into the world of Ottoman court munajjims—astral experts whose work combined mathematical astronomy, astrological interpretation, and political counsel—and uncovers the roles they fulfilled within the Ottoman court bureaucracy. They advised rulers and officials not usually on whether something should happen, but on when, including the auspicious timing of military campaigns, building projects, ceremonies, and other acts of state. Their authority rested on technical skill, especially the ability to calculate planetary positions and the ascendant, as well as on a broader cosmological understanding of how the heavens shaped events on earth. Under Bayezid II, munajjims enjoyed unusual prestige and high salaries, reflecting the sultan’s own interest in astronomy, mathematics, and philosophical kingship. Under Süleyman, however, their standing declined, while other forms of esoteric expertise, such as geomancy and letterism, became more prominent. By following the salaries, writings, frustrations, and ambitions of Ottoman munajjims, Şen reconstructs a social history of scientific authority in the early modern Ottoman Empire.    « Click for More »

Hello, welcome to the Ottoman History Podcast. I'm your host, Marion Patton, and today we have Tunc Shen. Tunc Shen is Associate Professor of History at Columbia University. He specializes in the history of the Ottoman Empire and its many connections with the early modern world. As a social and cultural historian of intellectual practices, Shen primarily focuses on how people perceive the world, the frameworks into which they fit information and beliefs, and the social, political, economic, and emotional structures that shaped and were shaped by their ways of knowing. Today we'll be discussing his first book, Forgotten Experts, Astrologers, Science, and Authority in the Ottoman Empire, which was published in 2025 with Stanford University Press. In Forgotten Experts, Shen examines the world of Ottoman core astrologers tracing their shifting authority and prestige over the long 16th century. So I thought we might begin with a little time travel back to autumn and Istanbul. Imagine we're walking through the streets where it might one encounter astrologers and a half. astrology. Well, thank you so much, Mariam, for hosting me. It's such a pleasure to have this

conversation with you. Well, that's really a kind of tough question, and I worked a lot, whether I can find some traces of street astrologers having their own stores in the marketplace. But aside from short notes in Evlietje, I couldn't really find any particular astrologer operating in the marketplace. So I had to kind of show. shift my focus to the court astrologers because it provided me with the kind of paper trail I was looking for. But I assume this would not negate the fact that astrology was part of the daily life of so many Ottoman subjects. I mean, if you read poetry, if you read biographical sources, if you read chronicles, you can easily come across how people consulted those particular individuals who were

well worse than astrology. But whether there were any kind of astrologers operating in the marketplace, I mean, I couldn't find that kind of definitive evidence. Sure. But in the political spirit, is it fair to say that astrology was quite important and something that hasn't been explored fully, partly that gets at the heart of your book's title, right? The forgotten nature of astrologers. So what role more generally did astrology serve like intellectual sphere? Like what was the goal of astrology and how did that serve a political purpose? I mean, my simple definition of astrology is just the art of interpreting the impact of the celestial spheres on terrestrial events. And I mean, this can easily be traced back to ancient times.

You know, astrology was a science or a discipline that was practiced from Babylonian onwards. and it was found appealing for not just political reasons, but all kind of societal and cultural reasons. And it was practiced frequently to the best of our knowledge. So for specifically political purposes of using astrologers' counsel, the Ottomans, of course, were not the first ones doing that. As I just mentioned, one can trace the history of the political use of astrology in pretty old times, ancient times. But in the Ottoman case, there was something, I mean, again, I'm not going to say unprecedented and also I'm not going to say unique, but the institutionalized form of using astrologers' advice by hiring them or hiring a team of them in a particular unit in the bureaucracy

that was initiated from the late 15th century onwards. I mean, this really sets the Ottomans apart when compared to other earlier or contemporary Islamic policies. And there are so many cases of Ottoman decision makers, political decision makers, be it them sultans or the Grand Viziers or other high-ranking administrators, turning to astrologers, the court astrologers, and asking their advice before they started doing something. And that something might be a kind of military campaign or constructing a building or throwing a party, a bankhead, and so on and so forth. I mean, the advice was not about whether they should do that thing or not, but what would be the ideal time to do that?

There are, of course, a few cases where the decision makers change their minds and change their plans based on the advice of the astrologers, but most oftentimes the scope of the advice was, about the timing of that event. So it's less the idea of an astrologer kind of predicting things that are going to happen in the future and more just suggesting an ideal time based on planetary positions. That's how I view them and that's what the sources I worked on really reveal. And that's the reason I call them Masters of Time

because time was really the essence of their business and that was really the scope of their advice. And we're in a framework here where time or as a, Zaman is the sort of word I'm imagining most used is understood as the motions of the planets, right, like charting their rotation around the Earth. And in that case, what sets apart the astrologers from astronomers who are interested in similar questions? I don't necessarily see a strict distinction between the two, especially when it comes to pre-19th century context. And that's the reason I wanted to keep the original term monejum intact over the course of the book,

instead of translating it as astrologer or astronomer or sometimes astrologer slash astronomer. Because any munejim, especially a well-wurst one, was expected to know astronomy as well as astrology. Because without the knowledge of astronomy, one cannot really practice astrology in the most sophisticated manner. So the distinction between an astrologer and astronomer that is so obvious to any modern reader would be less transparent in the premodern context. So one can easily define a Mnidgim as an astronomer. But I didn't want to do that because the use of astronomer exclusively kind of occludes their preoccupation with astrology. And this is something historians of science in the Islamic context have done in the past decades. I mean, they wanted to name them astronomers because astronomer and astronomy obviously sound much more scientific in modern understanding of these terms.

But this distinction between an astrologer and astronomer, again, were pretty opaque in earlier centuries. My own distinction would be whether the individual was known to have practiced astrology as part of their studies of heavens or the celestial spheres. Because we know some of the individuals interested in the study of heavens did not really practice astrology or we don't know any document left from them that shows their practice. of astrology. One obvious example is Ali Kushche. I mean, I cannot really designate him as an astrologer because when you look at his earth, you have a really hard time finding any documented evidence of him practicing astrology. And in this context, when you say practicing astrology, what strictly are you referring to? In every astrological activity, and maybe we'll have a time to talk about the branches of astrology, because there are different branches of astrology.

Some of them are devoted to interpreting the time of birth, once birth, which is called the natal astrology. Other types of astrological practice include electional astrology, meaning astrologer calculates a particular moment in which that designated act should start. And there is also or area astrology. The customer, the astrologer a question about his own or her own fate. And the astrologer calculates the exact moment when this question was asked to him. So in all these different types of astrological practice,

the Monejim, the astrologer, calculates one point and then designates a particular degree that is called ascendant, which is called the ta'li in Arabic. And that's how we have in Turkish tali. I mean, the tali as Fortuna or fortune, luck. I mean, it's simply an astrological term. This is the degree that the astrologer calculates. My definition of astrologer relies on the ability of that individual

who can compute that particular degree in the mathematical and astronomical sense. not all people interested in astrology were able to calculate that kind of degree. And that's the really starting point of making an astrological interpretation, because the ascendant also stands as the beginning of the first house, and there are 11 other houses, which are important to interpret an astrological interpretation of the matter in question. So as long as the individual can make that calculation accurately,

then he, I mean, easily qualifies as an astrologer. But am I correct in thinking or interpreting what you've said to draw a line between the sort of technical, mathematical calculations involved with planetary positions and actually ascribing value to the timing of the ascendant and the zodiacal house in which that moment occurred? So it's the sort of acceptance or belief, whatever word you want to use. of the superlunary influences of these signs on Earth, right? And that goes back well before the Ottoman. Absolutely, absolutely.

I mean, the zodiac as a concept was invented by the Babylonians themselves in 500 BC. And ever since people interested in interpreting the impact of the heavens on Earth just relied on that same tradition. And this is part of a much broader scientific understanding of the world, a cosmic understanding in which astrology was just a part, right? It wasn't sort of a special science kind of set aside. It tied in, well, to put in simple terms, a recitalian understanding of the Earth at the center

and the elements and all these planets. So there's no question of that, right? That was all part of the same given of how the world worked and astrology sort of maybe just went a little bit further. Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, some of the impact of the heavens on Earth are easily visible. I mean, we know that seasons change, right? One can even put that under the blanket term of astrology.

You define astrology simply as the art of interpreting the impact of the heavens on Earth, right? So, I mean, some of these signs are pretty visible, but as you said, astrologers went beyond those easily visible signs themselves. And yet there are instances of criticism and admonition. towards the astrologers, right? This isn't necessarily a completely uncontested science to use that term for the early modern Ottomans. And again, this is not peculiar to the Ottomans, but there is a long tradition of anti-astrology polemics. One can easily find in medieval Europe or medieval Islamic world. As I tried to characterize Mnijms in my book, I mean, they are the most unwelcome type of scientists.

I mean, they always created polemical accounts of either Olema or Sufis or some other individuals who were not pretty friendly to the Munejims himself. So the polemics were always there about the limits of the knowledge of the astrologers. I mean, what can an astrologer really know? Are there any limits to their ability to predict? Right. But what I wanted to do in the book is to add the astrologer's perspectives to that kind of discussion. Because that has often been ignored in the relevant literature. I mean, I look into the writings of the monadjum operating at the Ottoman court.

I come across some self-doubting remarks by them. I mean, I don't think they fully believe in the full, you know, explanatory story. strength of their science. They know the limits. They know what astrology can do and cannot do. And they don't refrain from really expressing them whenever it comes to the time when they start talking about their predictions. They say, okay, I'm just saying these things, but it's only God who can really know what the future looks like. These are just my probabilistic interpretations. These are the things menegiums really say in their very writings.

I mean, I think you kind of already answered this, but this is less like political hedging in case their forecast turns out wrong and more a reality of the nature of their science, you'd say? If I were to be more cynical, I would just say, oh, they were trying to save their faces in case their predictions might fail, right, by saying, okay, this is really the limitations of my art. I can't really foresee what's going to happen. But I think they also believe in the very limitations of their art,

at least most of them. I'm pretty sure there were several types who were more fanatical about their strength and power. And part of that probably has to do with the absence of formal institutions in which to go train in Najjum. Is that fair to say? I would be happy to have found more evidence as to the instruction of these disciplines in the madrasa setting,

but unfortunately, I mean, I love reading madrasa curriculum and the texts that the students were reading and writing on and commenting on. Yes, there are several texts that are specifically about what I would like to call Hei'a, meaning the astronomical theory. So we can just say that several of such texts were in circulation in the madrasas. But when it comes to the strictly astrological textbooks, and they were also circulating, but they were not circulating around the madrasa circles. So it's instruction, the instruction of astrological practice, I mean how to compute the ascendant for instance, how to interpret all astrological houses, how to draw astrological interpretations

based on the horoscope charts and so on and so forth. I mean, there was no systematic education of that kind of knowledge in the higher educational institutes of early modern ornaments. And there wasn't any other school that could have offered that kind of instruction. So the court unit instituted by the late 15th century somewhat operated as the primary institution or the mechanism through which this particular knowledge was transmitted across generations. So despite these polemics and the wariness towards astrologers and what they're conducting, and yet we see with the Ottomans,

as you point out, the creation of this state office, this position, this title, the Minid Jimbushu. Given the lack of a kind of formal institutional setting in which to go and train and the fact that it's not really condoned in the metrises, how did one join this palace circle of Mnid Jims and then be headed by the Mnijimbusha? I assume there were several ways for an individual becoming a member of that unit. In the earlier decades, I assume an individual who was kind of self-confident in terms of the astrological practice, presented a text to the patron or the sultan. And through that text and through that kind of promise, he was probably incorporated into the unit. I mean, this was the case for especially the late 15th century context. One of the chapters in the book talk about some individuals who were trained in Iran in the mid to the late 15th century, but they came to

Anatolia and they found a way to get closer to the sultans or the princess and they presented a book that is specifically about astrology and through that connection I believe they found a way to be included into that unit. Other way would probably be the master-discipled relationships constructed between an operating chief Mnijim in the court and his own students. An individual who wanted to learn more about these sciences probably approached that individual who was designated as the chief court Monejim and they studied together or he just became a student of this guy and then later he was incorporated into the unit and ended up being the chief Monejim as the previous one just passed away. We have also cases like that,

especially the 16th century Ottoman context. So student and master relationships, as well as the patronage culture, the presenting works to patrons. I believe these are the two main ways for an individual to be in the unit. To end up on the payroll and then they appear in the archival sources. Could you talk a bit about that aspect, which I thought was, was one of the highlights of your book, this incredible archival combing through every, it felt like every stack of paper that possibly mentioned Minidjim and Topkapa. What were you expecting to find in the archive when you sat down and looking for the sort of state position of the Minidim and what did you find that expanded what we know or what we

could know thanks to your book? I believe every Ottomanists know how good the Ottomans were in record keeping, but historians of science didn't really pay a lot of attention to Ottoman archival materials, just because a history of science in the Anaman and Islamakot world has often been written by simply relying on the manuscripts or the text that these scientists composed. But the Honoman archives, especially those payment registers that show how much money those functionaries were receiving on a regular basis, also present incredibly important information about those salaried, including those court monejums themselves.

I mean, I'm definitely not the first one doing that. I mean, I need to cite Salim Idus, who wrote an excellent thesis in the 90s on the institution itself. And he also worked on these archival materials and the registers, mostly in the later centuries. But the payment registers that the Ottomans kept give us information about the salary. these monogiums were receiving and how these salaries fluctuated over time. But other than that, these archival documents say very few about the biographies of these individuals, unfortunately. And in order to do that, we of course need to look more carefully into the writings of the monadjums themselves. So combining those archival materials that are specifically about the salaries

they received with what they were, the monadjums themselves were writing, was the way I tried to do when reconstructing the lives of these individuals. Were the menigms well paid? Sometimes they were paid really well. And some other times they were not paid well enough, which also became an issue of frustration among those court meninges. So I tried to trace the social history of the court monagems from the 15 through the late 16th century through the very lens of those fluctuating salaries.

Late 15, early 16th century, it was a time that was really good for these court monoges they were earning pretty well. But by the mid-16th century, they were not paid well. And this is a source of frustration. among at least some of the members of the unit. And that doesn't seem to chart with the common narrative of the importance of astrology and millinarian thought in the mid-16th century, is that right?

That's how I ended up arguing in the book, actually, because when I first started working on these astrological materials and specifically about those materials produced in the long 16th century, which correspond to the last century before the first millennium. I was hoping to find lots of references to apocalypse, to messianic discourses, because where else one can really expect to find those kind of references? So I started reading all these almanacs. I started reading all these astrological predictions.

And I mean, it was a kind of frustration for me as well, because I couldn't really find what I was hoping to find. So an easy solution might be just to say that, well, these apocalyptic thinking probably didn't matter much, but we know that it mattered for at least some people, and we have textual evidence for that, thanks to works done by my own supervisor, Cornell Hoja, as well as Barbara Fleming and others, We know some people were using that kind of discourse, and some were really worried about, or at least mobilizing that kind of discourse. But astrologers themselves were not the right address for the production and circulation

of that apocalyptic millenarian messianic discourse. When was the best time to be a mening? When would you get the most, the fattest paycheck? Bayezat the second time is certainly the best time for the menegyms. They were paid well compared to the other functionaries in court. And that is somehow related to the Sultan's own intellectual interests. He was very much interested in, I mean, not just astrology, but astronomy and also the study of the heavens as well as other intellectual disciplines,

scientific disciplines. So I tend to interpret this manegim's being paid well in his own time with reference to his really own intellectual inclinations. So during Baez, it's time. In the book, you present this as an example of how he might be conceited as a philosopher king in the Neoplatonic sense. I was wondering if you could expand a little bit on what that entailed and why astrology and astronomy together fit in the Neoplatonic ideal of the philosopher king. This is something I started to think more deeply after I started teaching Plato's Republic here to sophomore students. Because when you read Plato's Republic, who is destined to rule, I mean, who should be the ruler, and what kind of characteristics that ruler should have. The interest in the knowledge of mathematics really struck me. An ideal ruler should have that kind of knowledge of mathematical sciences.

Of course, Plato did not specifically talk about astrology, but we know that astrology in the Islamica taxonomies of sciences was often conceived as a kind of mathematical science, along with astronomy, the Heihe or other strictly mathematical disciplines of geometry or arithmetic. And then I read Plato's Timos, another text that talks a lot about why the study of mathematics is important for being a kind of ideal ruler. Instead of saying neoplatonic, I would rather say platonic. You're definitely right that that tradition was also intensified by the writings of the neoplatanic philosophers themselves in the Islamicat world as well. And we know, for instance, Bayesett II's library contained a copy of Plato's Temeus,

as well as an Arabic translation of the Republic itself. I mean, we don't know whether he read these texts, but I want to assume that he at least browsed it. You know, how is the study of mathematics important for being a sovereign, an ideal ruler? First of all, the mathematics or the study of heavens in general really presupposes an orderly, just and strictly hierarchized forms, right, at the top of which stands the ruler himself. And another fun fact about Bayezette II is the pen name he adopted for himself when he was writing his poems. and he chose Adli as his pen name. Of course, we don't really know why he chose that particular pan name

or what was the occasion they chose their pen names. But again, I want to assume that being the just, the orderly, representing the way the planetary spheres are located in the heavens, might somehow impact his own choice of Adli, Adli meaning the just has his band name. So when putting all these smaller details together and putting some of the observations of his own contemporaries, Bayeseth II was often praised for his reading tastes.

He was reading theology, he was reading astronomy, astrology, He was commissioning so many people, either from Iranian world or from Western Mediterranean and so on and so forth. I believe we really have that kind of philosophical king type of individual in the presence of Biasat II himself. The era of Suleiman, as you point out, doesn't seem to be this sort of golden age for astrologers on the payroll to present their prognostications and feed into. this millinery and or messianic aura. And yet there are other genres that you know in the book that perhaps get at why this paradoxical lack of astrologers themselves in terms of payroll and also writing and mentioning these kinds of apocalyptic things.

So could you mention where astrology ties into this much broader world of texts that are oriented toward the future? What we might consider astrological but isn't as technical. I mean, during my Suleiman's own time, Again, this is the work done by Cornell Fleischer on this geomancer, Khadar, who was very close to Suleiman from at least 1530s, early 40s onwards. And his expertise entailed the interpretation of letters in Arabic. And when you read the texts by this geomancer, you can come across some astral references. He also talks about, for example, the ascendant. He talks about the conjunctions.

He talks about other types of celestial references. But he never makes any technical, mathematical, astronomical computation, which gives me the impression that he really didn't have the skills that the meninges had. And the predictions he provided to the Sultan were much more esoteric and sometimes more direct. compared to the type of predictions Mnijim's were providing to their patrons. So he was, the geomancer Haidar, was particularly influential, at least at certain points, during Sleiman's time. But Menejems kept writing their almanacs and presenting them to the court. They were presenting their own reports for those auspicious moments in which certain

certain things should be done. But as you said, the number of court munageums significantly decreased. By the mid-16th century, I was only able to see two court-monetiums compared to five or six during the time of Bayezate II. And the salaries they were receiving, again, significantly reduced. Back in the early 16th century, the court-monadjum was making. around 35 to 40 acches a day, whereas by Suleiman's time in the middle of his reign, they were making six acchres, which was even less than just the apprentice of a mason. So I again tend to interpret it as a kind of shifting attention to the expertise of the geomancers or letterist. rather than the expertise of the Monejums and astrologers.

And one can also trace those different claims of expertise in the writings of these individuals. I mean, Haidar, the geomancer, says pretty hostile things about. I mean, he doesn't say any hostile things about any specific menegrim, but as a category, he is not friendly with the menegrims. And one can also trace similar hostile remarks. in the writings of some other letterists again at this time. So do you think it makes sense to group Nijum together with these other occult sciences,

as they're commonly known today? Probably six, seven years ago I would just say yes. Why not? You know, the Menjim's were also occult sciences. What they were practicing, it was obviously on occult science. And yes, I mean, they should be grouped under this broad category of, health sciences. But when we use these concepts casually, sometimes we miss to understand why these people were also competing or how they were competing with one another, what kind of expertise

claims they were making, and what kind of knowledge they were produced. I mean, the knowledge produced by the geomancer or by a letterist was really not on the same ground. with the kind of knowledge of Moneggium, who was well worst in the very technical details of mathematics and astronomy produced. Even though one can find astral references or metaphors, I mean, everybody can use astral metaphors, but not everybody was able to make those very detailed technical, mathematical, and astronomical computations. And that's where they differed from one another as far as I see it. You know, the occult sciences usually try to, or different branches of occult sciences, rely on the ability of its practitioner or the assumption of its practitioner

to interpret the hidden, invisible signs of whatever that person is interested. So, for example, the heavens, the celestial. spares. There are certain invisible hidden, not easily explainable qualities and characteristics, right, that are considered to have some impact on what's happening in the world or what's going to happen in the world. The same also goes to other branches of the Ocote science like dream interpretation, right? There are There are certain signs that are hard to decipher in the mundane dreams of individuals. And some people view themselves as qualified enough to interpret what those occult hidden meanings of dreams can be.

Or physiognomy, right, the facial and bodily features of an individual. are certain visible aspects of it, but there are also invisible, hidden, occult, not easily explainable qualities of things. So those individuals who view themselves as practitioners of this or that occult science come up with the claim that they can make sense of those hidden invisible qualities. So I believe, I mean, and I say it in the book, that I have no problems with defining astrology as an occult science, because it is indeed an occult science. If we are to define occult science as the act art of or the science of interpreting those invisible hidden qualities. We also should acknowledge those important nuances between the claims of these different practices.

as well as the sources of knowledge that they relied upon. Because Nijum had both mathematical and natural slash physical implications. And that really mattered where that science is classified. Because the mathematical sciences are those sciences of certainty. They are about the supralunar realm, the celestial realm. They are immutable. They are certain and they give you some basic facts and the certitude. Whereas the sciences that are devoted to understanding terrestrial realm, the sublunar world, this earth,

I mean, they are interested in finding the change that's taking place. It's a very simple Aristotelian framework, how the sciences were classified. In the case of nujum, it has certainly celestial knowledge claims, because the type of knowledge they, I mean, the monejims relied on, is about the knowledge of the movements of the celestial bodies. So the knowledge is very much tied to that level of certainty. But they want to use this knowledge in order to explain what's changing in this world. So they are also tied to that natural physical sciences. In the case of medicine, there is no such discussion because medicine is always about tracing what's really taking place in this world, in the very bodies of individuals.

It's about the change here taking play. So it's all. always a natural physical science in the classification of science books. But the nijcum, it has both mathematical and natural implications. And those classifiers themselves also had a very hard time where they have to classify the knowledge of the heavens. That also gives the Monejim's expertise, their own peculiarity maybe. Because they are all well-wurst, both in mathematical sciences of the heavens, those unchanging rules, as well as the physical natural sciences.

I do recall examples of astrological advice related to medical effects, right? Or even something as Benal's seasonal variations, like which foods to eat in which seasons because it balances those humors, and likewise extended to the astrological realm, when certain planetary arrangements are healthful versus not. As we already mentioned, I mean, the munad gyms were expected to be knowledgeable in both mathematical sciences as well as the natural physical sciences, including medicine. And when you read the predictions, annual predictions of munageems available in the almanacs,

the taqweems, you would come across so many advice, so much advice on what to eat, what to avoid eating, what kind of drugs should be taken and when, or when you read the bird horoscopes that the Moneggiums regularly compiled for their patrons, you also come across medical advice. So medicine was part and parcel of the expertise of an ideal Monegium. And I came across several instances in which Monejim just expressed his unease about practicing astrology and saying, okay, I can't really do it anymore. I'm more interested these days in medicine. So if you consider me as a potential physician, I'll be happy to serve you in that status, but don't please ask me any more astrological advice. So they easily shifted their

trajectories, occupational trajectory, is just because many of them were equally well worst in medicine. Some other cases include, for instance, individuals when they submitted their first ever treatise to be patronized to their patron. They tried to cast themselves both as an astrologer and a physician, equally adapt in both disciplines. So if one doesn't work well, then they can easily be hired as also a physician. So they try to cast their net as wide as possible across being an astrologer and a physician. Sounds like someone needs to write your book but for the Hekimbusha, right? Chart the same fortunes and sort of see where they match. And just because you mentioned Hekimbusha, another interesting fact about the units of court astrologers is that by the late 16th century,

we see the Hequimbash is appointing those individuals in the unit of court management. So it was subsumed under the jurisdiction of the Hequimbashi from the late 16th century onwards. So they kind of lost their independent status in the court bureaucracy. But again, showing us the proximity of these disciplines or these occupational trajectories. So what does the study of the meninges and their shifting fortunes in the state bureaucracy change how we think about expertise in the early modern Ottoman Empire? In those parts of the book where I kind of discuss whether using these terms expert and expertise might be relevant for early modern history, I was trying basically to say that these terms

have often been used with specific reference to 19 and 20th century world of professionals, scientists or sciences or those strictly disciplinary distinctions. But I still think that we are allowed to use those notions in pre-modern times. First of all, they make those claims in their own writings. They use those terms in those original languages. I mean, expert expertise, I mean, these are not words that were not available in those types. People were also, the actors themselves were also using these categories like Mahir, for example, or Hazik. I mean, what do these terms really imply if they are not referring to some expertise or expert claims? So I, I have, hope the book can provide some insights about the uses of these terms in the 19th century context.

I mean, experts and expertise should not be monopolized by modern historians. And another thing about expertise is it's often associated with a kind of foreign or European type of knowledge adopted in the Ottoman context. Because we tend to think about the experts and expertise as those individuals or those types of knowledge that the Ottomans adopted from the West or the Europe. But it doesn't need to be like that, right? I mean, reading these actors' texts themselves also reveal so many instances where they were making their own expertise claims. They were, you know, sharing their frustration when their expertise was not paid enough attention to and so on and so forth. So I'm really hoping that

We, as the early modernist or medievalists, can also use these terms. And I realize that these terms were also used by Ottoman historians already in a more casual fashion. I mean, if you read environmental historians, if you read historians of medicine, if you read historians of bureaucracy in the early modern Ottoman world, you see that the modern scholars use the terms oftentimes without really debating what these terms might have entailed or how expertise was constructed in that time. So I tried to kind of provide a kind of discussion on how these terms were constructed and debated and negotiated by the actors themselves in the early modern context. Well, I think you definitely succeeded. I'm so glad to hear that

from you and Maria. Yeah. I know you mentioned in the question about the archival sources, payment register is kind of being the main source there. But for our listeners benefit, I want to highlight, it's not like an economic history in that sense whatsoever. There's a narrative there of the social world and anxieties of these meninges and their circles expressed and explored through, you know, the archival document.

It captures that world really beautifully. Well, I'm afraid we'll have to end on that note. and I encourage all our listeners to seek out the book. As always, they can come to our website, autumnhistorypodcast.com, where there will be a link to the book, images, bibliography, the usual collection of resources.

And allow me to thank you again, Tonch, for coming on to the podcast. It was a real pleasure to have this conversation with you. The pleasure is mine, Mariam. Thank you so much for these wonderful questions.