Ottoman History Podcast - Festivals and the Waterfront in 18th Century Istanbul

Episode Date: August 25, 2016

with Gwendolyn Collaçohosted by Chris Gratien, Nir Shafir, and Huma Gupta Download the podcast Feed | iTunes | GooglePlay | SoundCloud The illustrated account of the festivals surrounding... the circumcision of Sultan Ahmed III's sons in 1720 is one of the most iconic and celebrated depictions of urban life in Ottoman Istanbul. With its detailed text written by Vehbi, accompanied by the vibrant miniature paintings of Levni, this work has been used as a source for understanding the cast of professions and personalities that occupied the public space of the Ottoman capital. In this episode, we focus not on the colorful characters of Levni's paintings but rather the backdrop for the celebrations: the Golden Horn and the waterfront of 18th-century Istanbul. As our guest Gwendolyn Collaço explains, the accounts of festivals in early modern Istanbul reflect the transformation of the city and an orientation towards the waterfront not only in the Ottoman Empire but also neighboring states of the Mediterranean.  « Click for More »

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Starting point is 00:00:44 ស្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រូវានប្រ� Hello and welcome to another episode of Ottoman History Podcast. I'm Chris Grayton. I'm Huma Gupta. And I'm Nir Shafir. Today we're welcoming on the program Gwen Colasso. She's a PhD candidate at Harvard University in the Joint Program for Art History and Middle East Studies. She also works as the Visual Resources Librarian in Islamic Art and Architecture at Harvard. Gwen, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. Before we get into our topic, I do want to mention the song you all just heard. Probably
Starting point is 00:01:07 that was a very exciting moment in podcast history. It was a little mix-up of the theme music from Super Mario Brothers, the original from Nintendo, and the song Üsküdar Egederken or Kötübüm, the very famous song associated with late Ottoman Istanbul that's produced by our friend Kerimov, Kerimov Abi, who you can find on SoundCloud. And we've got a link to that song on the website. I actually found that song a while ago. It was posted on Facebook by my friend Movcu. And I really enjoyed that mix up using something nostalgic from my childhood to play on a song that evokes something nostalgic about uh the city of istanbul i don't know if you if you reckon if that brought up any memories for you near yeah it reminded me of uh seeing earth a kid perform that song in 1958 on uh oh you were there you saw that yeah
Starting point is 00:01:58 yeah you know so just another layer it was a previous lifetime. Yeah, all right. Yes, it's a song that's been played with a lot, but there's always ways to have a new take on it. And I think the song goes well with your topic today, Gwen, that we're talking about, because we're taking a fresh look at a famous visual artifact of the Ottoman period. Our topic is festivals and the waterfront in 18th century Istanbul. And a lot of our discussion will center around the surname, the depiction of a circumcision festival from 1720s Istanbul, sort of created and directed by Levni, the famous Ottoman painter. We'll get into that in just a second. So this is our latest installment in our series, The Visual Past, curated by Emily Neumar and Unveru Stem.
Starting point is 00:03:08 And indeed, we do have a number of images on our website and a PDF where you guys can follow some of the visuals we're going to refer to in this podcast. So Gwen, let's start by talking about the historical context and production of these visuals that we're looking at, these very colorful and animated depictions of celebrations in Ottoman Istanbul. Tell us about Levni and the Surdame, what's been written and where it can take us. All right.
Starting point is 00:03:29 Well, first of all, I'll explain what a Surname is, which is essentially a festival book. And the one we're talking about today is that of Levni, which was originally done in the 1720s after, of course, the 1720 Circumcision Festival. And one of the things that many people go on from games to spectacles, such as tightrope walkers and also various communities performing their crafts, all before the Sultan. And what's interesting about the Levni manuscript is that for the first time, we see this festival taken to the waterfront. The other big example that this contrasts with
Starting point is 00:04:32 is the 1582 Suramname, where it's just in front of Ibrahim Pasha's palace, which is, of course, a very impressive sight, but it doesn't offer the same degree of dynamism that you see on the waterfront in terms of variation and levels and lighting and sound quality. All this completely transforms. And I think both the text by Vehbi and the images by Levni really capture a lot of that movement that is brought to this event. Very cool. I mean, yes, people have used this to kind of see depictions, a colorful cross section of Istanbul society, the larger city life around the palace and all the different peoples, you know, the guilds and the different types of cast of characters we would find in Istanbul.
Starting point is 00:05:21 But on the other hand, as you're saying, we can also see the transformation of public life in Istanbul during the 18th century. And think about what it tells us about the broader ways in which the imperial capital is changing at this time. Right. And part of what I wanted to do is bring the background to the forefront so that no longer we're just looking at the waterfront as the space on which events take place, but really it's an active agent in creating these spectacles. And I think in part that's because the Ottoman state did want to use this as an opportunity to assert itself on the city and its public spaces in a new way. Why did the waterfront become important in the first place? Why did the city and its places of leisure and the palaces kind of move to the coast
Starting point is 00:06:11 of the Bosphorus to the Golden Horn? Can you just tell us, give us a bit of background about that? Yeah, that's a great question. In part because during this period, the Sultan, well, needed to reassert his presence within the city, in part because during the latter half of the 17th century, he wasn't living in Istanbul. The family was living primarily in Edirne, where the previous circumcision festival was. And with the rise of Ahmed III, he was brought back to Istanbul and also part of his ascension required him to make himself known to the people, in part to reestablish that relationship that didn't entirely exist. And that's really, I think, apparent in the public spaces, which by this period in the early 18th century had fallen into disrepair to some degree. And so one of the major projects that Ahmed III enacts when he comes back is renovating these public spaces, making them usable again. And also many of the people in the court circles, like the friends of Damad Ibrahim Pasha, also participated in this, now starting to, for instance, host parties in their a new way during this period. And it only increases during the
Starting point is 00:07:47 18th century, which is what Shireen Hamadeh discusses in her book, The City's Pleasures. And in my view, though, the 1720 Festival is definitely almost an inauguration of this, because in the couple of years prior to it, that's when a majority of these renovations are occurring. So it does have a very significant moment. It is a significant moment in these urban developments. And when you say urban development, is there a broader restructuring of the city taking place towards the waterfront?
Starting point is 00:08:24 Is that what you're saying, towards the Golden Horn and the Bosphorus? Because a lot of the city taking place towards towards the waterfront is that you're saying towards the the golden horn and the bosphorus because a lot of the i mean most of what happens in left knee tsunami most of what is depicted is not actually taking place in the you know inside the city walls right of the imperial capital but rather off in the distance often for example in okhmedana with the display of archery, these kind of other parts of Istanbul that today are associated with, you know, Beolu and Pera and the other side, as it's called in Ottoman nomenclature. Exactly.
Starting point is 00:08:54 And it is making the state known to that part of the city as well. A lot of this is in clear view, right? Right. And so, what's interesting is that this period is also known as kind of the conquest of the Bosphorus. And so, in many ways, this is one large step in that. Because you could say that this very large public event has an effect on later public recreation during the 18th century, which we see in the later development of the area and the opening up of pleasure gardens like Saadabad
Starting point is 00:09:31 shortly after. Yeah. Well, on that note, and building on sort of my previous question, I mean, as you said, this spectacle is taking place in plain view of the European inhabitants, so to speak, of Ottoman Istanbul, the people who live in that other side, Venetians and people from various trading communities. One of the things I think is very interesting about the paper you showed us is that you offered some images of similar water festivals in Venice and in Europe during the early modern period. Do you see the spectacle is also speaking to that audience, to a trans-imperial audience, let's say?
Starting point is 00:10:13 Yeah, definitely. And I think one of the reasons why I wanted to work on this was that I wanted to put the Sorname in a more comparative context and looking at how it fits into a wider, I guess you could call it baroque theater um and you could say too that it is a response in part to some dealings that uh the ottoman empire had had um with the venetians for instance this happens very shortly after the treaty of posarovitz um where the venetians lost Moria. And funny enough, during that treaty, as kind of a concession gift, they had given the Ottomans a set of very sumptuous, beautiful mirrors that were put in Ain al-Khawak Palace, which
Starting point is 00:10:59 is where many of the nighttime festivities occurred, or at least in front of this particular palace in the water. In many ways, it is kind of a slight, subtle reference to that. But also, we have to think about who the Ottomans were interacting with, and not only in a diplomatic sense, but also in a social sense as well. Obviously, the relationship between Istanbul and Venice has been well established. But just to bring out how it works on a performance level, we know, for instance, that as early as, say, the 16th century, the Venetians were hiring Turkish
Starting point is 00:11:37 acrobats to perform in their own festivals that included many of the floating theaters that pop up in Venice. And in fact, I think in one of the images that I had brought up, you can actually see one tightrope walker descending from a tower onto a ship. And not to say this is one of the Turkish ones mentioned in the payment registers, but it does kind of show how these particular types of individuals fit into this larger festival landscape. And was there a direct borrowing between the Ottomans and the Venetians in terms of the idea of the floating stage. I mean, I do think there is an awareness of it because we do know that the Ottomans were well aware of developments in, say, Venetian opera because in the 1675 Circumcision Festival,
Starting point is 00:12:39 the Sultan had even requested that a Venetian opera troupe come and perform. While that didn't come to fruition, I think it's an important point in noting that they were very keenly aware of what were the popular and in vogue types of entertainments these other societies were using. Yeah. I mean, you kind of referenced Baroque aesthetics a couple of times and indeed the very artist levni who depicts the tsunami is often associated with this kind of ottoman
Starting point is 00:13:13 baroque period the tulip era and all the aesthetics that come with it and i like how you situate that art in a larger context of performance, of theater, of the water spectacles, a very fascinating way of framing it. Gwen, I was wondering if you could also elaborate a bit about the sacred political and mythological interpretation of waterfront festivities as a comparative link between the Venetian and the Ottoman festivities. Right. I mean, they both use that sacred and mythological link in very different ways. For instance, to look at the Ottoman instance, we see that Vethbi in his text does reference how the incredible display of fireworks for him brings up these references to, say,
Starting point is 00:14:09 Abraham being thrown into the Chaldean fire or just other senses of divine wonderment in that sense. But also he connects it as well to local mythology about how you see all of these creatures that are talked about say um relating to the local myth of istanbul these peris that you know in other manuscripts like for instance in evliya chalabi's work mentions how the golden horn was known to have these sprites that would come and perhaps uh grab at the arms or legs of swimmers and try and drag them down and so by putting these types of automata on top of the water i think it does in many ways bring up these both um local and also yes yes, Quranic references to myth and religion. On the Venetian side, they're working with a very different paradigm, but it's really in some ways resonant.
Starting point is 00:15:15 For them, though, they're organizing their theaters, their floating theaters, as a type of reference to a neoplatonic cosmology and so it's kind of like the world floating in the universe when you look at it from above and that's kind of how they're organizing it and as when you look at the the uh the shows and the stages themselves many of them are references to local popular myths in this instance from the classical panthenon. For instance, there's one case I can think of from the late 17th century, from a ceremony that was done for Ernst August, the Prince Bishop of Osnabrück. And in that case, you have an entire floating stage that's in the shape
Starting point is 00:16:06 of Proteus. And on him, you have Venus performing, an opera singer, of course, who is singing an aria. And then another singer, and you have to imagine the massive size of this particular stage, though. In that instance, you have another singer in the head of Proteus stationed up there singing through his mouth to give the illusion of a larger than life type of mythological figure performing. And so there are all of these different references. And I think part of it is to try and make it relatable to the audience that it's being performed for. make it relatable to the audience that it's being performed for. So though they're using very different, I think, sets of source material, I think they're both doing it for a similar purpose. Welcome back to the Ottoman History Podcast.
Starting point is 00:17:20 I'm Nir Shafir, and I'm with Huma Gupta and Chris Graydon, and we're talking to Gwen Colasso about water festivities Istanbul the theater in the early 18th century and I'd like to remind our listeners that this is part of our visual past of the Ottoman Empire series and if you go to our website you can find more episodes about the art history of the Ottoman Empire so Gwen i think you've given us a lovely image of um this interaction between the venetians and the ottomans and you use this term baroque theater um and i was just wondering could you expand on that what did what did theater actually mean in the ottoman case because so often what we imagine as theater and especially early modern theater theater didn't really exist uh as such in the ottoman case you know, you have maybe shadow puppets, but kind of the notion of a stage, the notion
Starting point is 00:18:10 of a play and a performance and that these sorts of things, you know, often don't come to mind. So kind of what did theater mean? You know, you mentioned that kind of the Sultan asked for an opera troupe to perform. How would a stage have looked like? And what came to mind when people in the late 17th, early 18th century thought of theater? Right, that's a great question because I think, particularly during this period, it's a bit more of a fluid concept.
Starting point is 00:18:43 Because especially when you're talking about Baroque theater in terms of the technical aspects like staging and acoustics and all of that, many times it can incorporate the natural world. I mean, we can think of, say, French Baroque gardens and how performances were held there. Or to bring in another example from Europe, you have, say, in 1717, Handel performing his
Starting point is 00:19:09 Wassermusik on the River Thames, which is very much another interpretation of what a theatrical stage could be. In terms of actual plays, we know that in the Soriname we have an example of what we can consider at least some kind of play or vignette. It is some sort of confrontation between two men while another group stand and watch while a woman is to the side. And so, we do have some kind of dialogue going on here, as well as musical accompaniment. And so, while we don't know from the text what say the author is of this particular work or what exactly uh the overall plot is from the text we know that there is some kind of relationship being portrayed between a kashkari beauty and her lover um and from the image we can tell that, okay,
Starting point is 00:20:05 so we know that they are experimenting with some kind of scene and narrative work concerning Ottomans and Safavids, for instance. And so that's one example of what theater could be in this period. But it doesn't just have to be plays. And I think that the use of automata is one way of implying narratives without necessarily going into a full script. Because in many ways, you are alluding to stories because you don't have time on a floating stage,
Starting point is 00:20:38 in this case, for instance, to fully flesh out an entire three-act play. And this kind of goes back to the use of mythology. You're using stories that people know so that you can trigger that particular memory and storyline so that people can say, oh, okay, yeah, I recognize that. Huh, oh yeah, I love that story and all of that.
Starting point is 00:21:02 So this particular manuscript gives us a pretty good image of how this the water itself is manipulated as a stage and is also in subsequent decades where you still see musicians performing on rafts uh going down the bosphorus and so this has really continued um and it also occurred before as well, because the waterfront, again, is a very popular public space where you do have the room and audience space for people to sit. And you do have the proper acoustics for sound to carry. Gwen, one of the most compelling kind of parts of your study was this kind of focus on the acoustic in addition to the visual aspects. So you're talking about order, disorder.
Starting point is 00:21:50 You're talking about the ebb and flow of water, kind of these combinations of different elements, movement. You're also talking about the physics of sound as it refracts in water and how it travels in day versus night. I thought this was really compelling. I was wondering if you could share with our listeners a bit more about this. Right, right. That's a great question because it's one of the most interesting parts about the festival, in part because we see these really unique floating stages that we haven't really seen before. And what's interesting is that they attempt to play on the effects that water naturally
Starting point is 00:22:33 brings to a performance. For instance, when you have theatrical performances of both some sort of plays, which Levni or Vehbi, the author of the text, does not go into a great deal. But we see how performers are taking advantage of this with enormous automata, for instance, monstrous creatures that are meant to attack one another. And these roars you can imagine coming from these creatures are emanated by the water, unlike what you would see in, say, a hard surface where you have a much more stunted effect. Here, it echoes. And moreover, they're splashing and stuff. Is that what you're saying?
Starting point is 00:23:19 They're splashing, but also in water, it creates an otherworldly effect. For instance, we all know that when we're in, when we are in a swimming pool, for instance, sounds travel quite differently. And that's in part because of the way that sound plays against water rather than a hard surface. And it allows it to travel very far, but it also causes a degree of distortion, which makes everything seem a little bit off from your normal sense of perception. you see the water itself acting as a reflective surface that multiplies exponentially the effect of these same fireworks that you would see on land.
Starting point is 00:24:11 Also, there's a safety element to it as well, since you don't want these fireworks falling on wooden houses. And in fact, there are some rather disastrous moments from previous ornames that they did not want to repeat. For instance, in like the 1675 festival, one of the Jewish pyrotechnicians accidentally shoots a rocket into the lap of a Kisler Asa. And so no one wants to repeat these kinds of events. these kinds of events. And so you want to have a spectacle that one, has a magnified effect, but is far enough away from important features, like flammable buildings, and hopefully to spectators, although people do go on the water, but I would like to think that
Starting point is 00:24:57 the water itself would soften the effects of any accidental burns. And so in this, you know, you've described sort of the water sports and theater on the water, the fireworks, of course, which are amplified, they're more dazzling on the water. And this whole issue of safety, presumably all of these kind of acrobatics that are taking place above the water. I mean, the water, I mean, somehow they make them more daring, more, more, I don't know, nautical, but at the same time, if you fall in the water, perhaps maybe it's a little less dangerous. Exactly, exactly. And I mean, we definitely see new feats of engineering. For instance, the famous image from the Sorname is that image of the carriage being drawn on a tightrope, for instance, from one ship to another.
Starting point is 00:25:48 We have this in the PDF. There's a woman, a lady, a well-to-do lady seated inside this carriage. Right. And so you kind of wonder, okay, well, would they have done this if, for instance, it had actually threatened the life of that woman who, presumably, we don't know, is not a performer. Though we do have tightrope walkers, of course, in 1582. It's pretty clear that these are trained acrobats. Just to follow up on some of these, this theme of the acoustic, I'm wondering, as an art historian, there's a premium on ocular interpretation of manuscript, an art historian, there's a premium on ocular interpretation of manuscript, you know, illustrations. And how do you, I mean, in one of our images, you can see there's these boats filled with musicians, right? And singers, and you mentioned that, and you mentioned also this
Starting point is 00:26:37 quality of the siren, the amorous sirens in the water, which is really beautiful. But as an art historian, I think the oral, you know, as a potential way of how the sound is maybe interplaying with the water. Did that come up as you were looking at some of these images? Let's see, that is a great question. And in terms of the oral aspect, or at least the audio aspect, I mean, you can get a sense of it, I think, when you address the text. And then when you bring that to the image, it does illuminate that a bit. I mean, for instance, Vefbi talks about how in many ways it was a situation that would cause people to spin around in bewilderment both from the sounds and the sights um i think the favorite uh quote that i can think of is how people start spinning about like a pigeon roasting on a skewer um out of the wonder of the situation
Starting point is 00:27:39 right right um so you get a sense of that. In the images themselves, I think what it does do reflect and kind of capture the experiential aspects of being on the waterfront. And also just capture in general the wonder of that particular moment, even though, yes, it is done not only through the visual, but through the audio. Another, I think, interesting question is about the urban soundscape. So you mentioned a lot about how in the 18th century, this integration of land and sea is really critical. But I'm wondering also the soundscapes of the land and sea and how they're being integrated. So, for instance, you're talking about how this is a potential moment for different classes to mix together. However, I think you mentioned that the waterfront is maybe a place where the classes don't mix and yet the sound can travel far. even before this period, had been a pretty significant public space where there were music performances at these mezires or teferichkas, where people would go and have picnics and parties.
Starting point is 00:29:11 And, you know, these could be attended by anyone. But what's interesting is that the state brought its presence to these places in a way that hadn't really been done before. And true, they are bringing this entertainment and music spectacle to the city in a way that one, yes, will reverberate across the water, but also the fact that these rafts are moving. They're not stationary. They are going throughout the entire city, bringing this visual manifestation of its presence through the major waterways of Istanbul. And so what you see is, yes, it's bringing, you can hear the presence of this particular ceremony coming towards you. And you also get a sense of invitation for the entire city to participate in this particular event.
Starting point is 00:30:07 And yeah, it's an interesting tactic on the part of the Ottoman state. All right, welcome back to Ottoman History Podcast. Chris Grayton, Huma Gupta, and Nir Shafir here talking with Gwen Colasso about her research on festivals and the waterfront in 18th century Istanbul. So, in kind of earlier studies of the surname and the surname as spectacle, Derin Terzioglu has suggested that, you know, that the surname in these kind of month-long festivities can almost be seen as a sort of carnival, that it can be read in different ways, that there's this carnival, that there's this official world get at the sort of audience experience
Starting point is 00:31:26 of all these spectacles and maybe kind of the social significance of them yeah no that's a great question um obviously my own work has certainly built upon uh derenterziolo's studies and obviously i agree with her uh concerning the carnivalist aspects, which, of course, harken back to Bakhtian interpretations of Venetian carnival. And it is an important aspect of this. However, in some ways, it's often hard to find the popular experience because of the text and the source itself. This is a manuscript made for the royal family. It is told from the perspective that is meant to appeal to them. However, despite that, I think that we can find references to the popular experience within it.
Starting point is 00:32:22 about the crowds and crowds. Actually, no, he uses the word waves because he wants it to kind of parallel the waters. These waves of spectators that come and participate in these events. And we do see individuals on these particular contraptions that are displayed upon rafts like ferris wheels and swings and boats of people um clamoring to see these types of of spectacles which are separated by what we believe are oarsmen or guards of certain types with these red caps so we can definitely tell how um still at that point the official um the official government
Starting point is 00:33:08 is keeping an eye on the entire event though this event certainly is not just for them the text itself refers to how these stages were not stationary and they followed one another so we know that it's not something that's just playing out before the Ein Alukavak Palace. It's something that did go in front of many of these public spaces, the same spaces that locals were using for their own personal entertainments, their own picnics, their own leisure. own personal entertainments, their own picnics, their own leisure. So it's in many ways bringing a state-sponsored spectacle to public spaces of recreation that they use on a far more regular basis. And as I like to think, it helps in normalizing the use of these spaces, not only
Starting point is 00:34:02 by the public, but also the elite. You know, when you were talking about the participatory aspects of the festival, I was reminded of a document I found at the Ottoman Archives from the education ministry during a much later period, but it was about these carousels, these traveling carousels where, you know, they would erect sort of mini carnivals in neighborhoods of Istanbul during the Bayrams and whatnot.
Starting point is 00:34:27 And the document was actually about how these were a bad thing because children would ride on these carousels and the carnies who were operating them would sing dirty songs to them. Not only sing dirty songs to them, but actually distribute leaflets with lyrics of the songs that the students who are illiterate because they're school children could pass around to each other. And they had like sort of risque lyrics. I didn't get access to the lyrics, but the education ministry was certainly disturbed by the transgressive aspect of this carnival behavior within which even children were sort of robustly participating. Well, it's funny that you mention these carnivals
Starting point is 00:35:10 and carnival rides, Ferris wheels and swings, as well as the dirty lyrics that accompany it, because shortly following the 1720 Festival, we see the establishment of so many water waterfront amusement parks i think the ones of dimad ibrahim pasha become particularly uh popular uh and not necessarily for good reasons because um there are many critics such as shemdani zadeh who would discuss how many naughty things would occur there yeah women going to these public spaces who should not have been going to these public spaces claiming that they had public permission
Starting point is 00:35:49 because it's the sultan or his viziers there. So clearly it's an event that they should go to. But at these events, they're going on swings and going up so high that you can see their underwear and then they're jumping off these swings and then into the arms of young men who catch them. So yeah, it really does kind of,
Starting point is 00:36:10 the setting of the carnival really does bring out a certain disregard for normal rules of society, which is what made these types of spaces so incredibly dangerous to some, but also incredibly appealing to others, which in many ways describes why in the 1730 revolt, these were some of the first things to be destroyed. I see.
Starting point is 00:36:40 Yeah. Ferris wheel is the downfall of civilization. Yes, exactly. Well, but I i mean you know thinking more broadly about how we can use these sources on celebrations and feasts it's an that's an interesting place where we see uh how transgression actually magnifies uh social views political ideologies and and cultural values and as they're in transformation in a state of contestation. And I really want to thank you for coming and sharing your research on this very subject with us today
Starting point is 00:37:12 and hope that it will be further inspiration for our listeners who are maybe interested in studying similar topics. Well, thank you so much for having me on. Thank you, Gwen. And I wanted to ask you, you know, I know this is a paper you wrote and that you're actually, your dissertation research is also focused on art history, but in another sector of the, you know, Ottoman art world, would you like to say a few words about your ongoing dissertation? Yeah, sure. Well, my own dissertation project will also focus on trying to bring out the popular experience in terms of the creation of certain manuscripts, such as Ottoman costume albums, and how they were catered both to, yes, a local populace, but also travelers that were coming to the Ottoman Empire. And in
Starting point is 00:38:01 fact, many of these costume albums that we still can look at today exist in European collections, but haven't really been dealt with in a very systematic way or treated as whole objects. And I wanted to look at, one, why were these various albums created and compiled? And how are they used in other forms of cultural translation for instance are they being used um to adapt fashions in the 18th and 19th century turquoise movement or do we see uh similarities between uh these costume albums and costumes that are then created for um theater in europe concerning the Ottoman Empire. So how are they reinterpreting these products that were made by Ottoman hands
Starting point is 00:38:51 to perhaps insert a very different interpretation of that society upon them? Yeah. Well, that sounds like fun and fascinating work. I look forward to discussing it with you in maybe a few years down the road if the podcast and we all still exist, we can have that conversation. But on that note, I think we can conclude our conversation for the day. Thanks one last time, Gwen, for coming on.
Starting point is 00:39:15 No, thank you. Thank you, Huma and Nir, my dear Nir. Thank you for having me. Joining us on the podcast. Always a pleasure to have you on the podcast, Nir. I want to thank our listeners for tuning in, joining us in another installment of our you on the podcast, Nir. I want to thank our listeners for tuning in, joining us in another installment of our series on the visual past. I want to invite you to our website, ottomanhistorypodcast.com, where you can find our past and future episodes in that series.
Starting point is 00:39:37 Also check out the visuals and the bibliography for today's episode. I also want to invite you all to join us on Facebook and whatever social media we are currently engaged in. Get in touch with the more than 20,000 followers we have on Facebook and get a little conversation going about our content as well as keep track of future content on our page. That's all for this episode. Thank you for joining us. I invite you to join us in our next episode. Until then, take care. Thank you.

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