Ottoman History Podcast - Soykırımın Bürokrasisi

Episode Date: May 16, 2026

Ümit Kurt Sunucu: Can Gümüş | Bu bölümde Ümit Kurt’un Aras Yayıncılık’tan çıkan kitabı Kanun ve Nizam Dairesinde: Soykırım Teknokratı Mustafa Reşat Mimaroğlu’nun İzinde Osmanlı’dan Cumhuriyet’e Devlet Mekanizması temelinde 1915’in idari ve bürokratik boyutuna odaklanıyoruz. Mustafa Reşat Mimaroğlu örneğinde olduğu gibi “kanun ve nizam dairesinde” hareket eden bürokratlara odaklandığımız sohbetimizde, kolektif şiddet olaylarını olağanüstü kırılma anları olarak okumaktan ziyade bürokratik faillik biçimlerinin görünür hâle geldiği bir tarihsel bağlam içinde değerlendiriyoruz. Osmanlı’nın son döneminden Cumhuriyet’in ilk yıllarına orta-üst ölçekli bir bürokratın merkezî kararlarla saha arasındaki rolü nasıl şekillenmiştir? Devlet hizmeti, görev bilinci ve düzen söylemi bu dönemde nasıl bir anlam kazanmıştır? Faillik, yalnızca doğrudan eylemle değil, idari kararlar ve rutin pratikler üzerinden nasıl kurulmuştır? Podcast, bu sorular ekseninde 1915’i bürokrasi, faillik ve devlet işleyişi ekseninde yeniden düşünmeye davet ediyor. « Click for More »

Armenian Soycrimin' a time of short of course of the system of the end of course in which the idea of mechanismalarly mechanism of the mechanisms, the mechanismal of the backinocrat's, carerveraged the issue

how much more than this is the fallacetian modern a bureaucratic gap to the hussule getting to understand, Mr. Roshat, Mimaroly and

his element, irides, the problem. Here, the first the matter, the real-o-o-o-grim charkin the, how is-eckly,

and, a good, a different a different this is a a different because Mustafa Rechat in the

indiaqi bureaucratic agitina these they're only they're they're they're

they're they're they're they're they're they're modernist problem-e

problem-chososos problem-eusel a subject-a- birokrat what what what's, what's the and what kind of

what's the other and the on the other than and the other and the other

a reale or a or a he's in making, he's, sometimes, or,

some, it's, the either, actor-and-a- -a-a-duty organization in what,

how, and how much, I'm not, so in the terminil the emhands, obviously, physical shuddletting mebuzzle mictard

in a economic and cultural a new time also Mustafa Rechat and the partak, an idea, and inattosion

halcy, the fallacet the tachersemes and life to get into the time. Autumnonistee podcast

to welcome, I'm Canggumuch. Today's, Newcastle University, Tarhe Bully Mewitkirt,

Dr. Umit, Welcome, Umit. Hi, Good, weldook, Maravals. Today, Umitle, in 203 year's

Aras Yaincielut from Chathor in the prokirm-technocrat Mimaroel in hisinda, Osmanliette government-Mekanismas

on a sub-Makensmasmas on a government-of-the-Makensmas' in a collective-sid-bath sub-hackety-Nit-Bal under, and the-M-Zam-Degersersers in-M-Gro-Rodd-PewRewsignor

in-Pegovies in. Maybe, backdairken, the book's Anna actor, Mustafa Rechat Mimaroly know how much

people, who is Mr. Roshat, heitimmy is, his time in whether hector alightly

under the Kiselae Kov, Mimarov, 1882, Selanik, doomelian, sollisely,

77, 78, 78, 18, Osman, the Falaketian, from,

from, from, the RELadi Fatihan, dened. Of, These, these, you know, the Ottoman's

the same time the government the state of capital, the capital, Salanic and Rumel. More than the communityate to

devourute people, they're undergues to give in the end of the community elite but it's but the

time of the country's in the time of course, Selanik gochmen, but Selanik Dek's 1912-12-

Balkan falkatina falaketianian because the family actually also Istanbul to Istanbul to

they're there shahenade and then Muckeyeye Giackeye to make Muckeyeye

in 2009 2002 to Mektebueh Muckeye in Birok over and the first Abdullamidin

Maliya Degassa Deghye, the emlack in the Mawsebe katipli here, there

in December 188 to give up Deltu-N Derecchi curledmust and Abdu-A and Adelaide and to

autocrasin against, a totalisisis and this Maldivet and the attack and the attack and the

This is a lotlucked-up-unuch-where-the-Mulke and Thubbiye shahne. Mustafa Rechatine, and Thiracquiae-be-safe-a-per-law. But, more so-sook-turgeoning and back-twebush-dox-lawing, back-to-webush-in-lawful, we're, actually, persona-in-lawful persona-a-lawful persona-a-old. But, on the memoriettehackism, one of themus, Temus, 198-Junk-Turkdewan. Here, Ithad and terracchi with

doil or doilessess, any lawlessless, any back and devourn't, after, Istanbul, Ithatat and Teraki Beilerbeye Club in here, where, here's a way of course

soon, he's a bureaucratic cadre, end uprorede, it's in capital-Makam on it, and then,

again, a memmurieter, here, Kemahton's the year, Kemp'AXX, Mucsububbue, Mewu-N-N-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-E,

Erzincan's Karakuse or Karakil case, casas, a high macawain tithe, 1913th, and then Antacia motosarriful was in Mays, 1914, in Antakia Mottosarifilin'an autosariflunded, and here,

in Istanbul to Dahlia Nezartin, in a desaduferenced a muckeh and a friend and the time in Istanbul the D'Inty

D'Ina'A nezaretine's the end of the second shubbe or the classi-y-divis-divis-dye-dolmation, of a a role as police

memmour as Mustafa Reshat in the time in the title of the title of

the time of the part of the case of the Mayys 1914 in the dahlia

nezareate in the second shubb to be doing it we're maybe detaillyly

here here he's the up the the degree of his his namemation

in the police memmur in the after the 1916 to shubb middurlulululing the by the

directorly to in career in in 1917 in the adid mutasariff it was in early 17 in sonn under boli to boliya

mutasariff over and after mutatee under after putt and bekirah buchirah borguea

abelionn't on the 1919 in on the time and then on the time in the sub-valis

working work is and memurietiati life is actually inpaterlululululul modern

groupers and a a role-dise-buretmy, Ust-Disei-Birocrat, or up-d-d-d-duebriot-many me, I'm I'm a re-est-it-it-law I'm in the

chapter, and especially, military-mudel, mili-mudel-Deged-N-Murus with-Qua-N-Gurlis-lis, with-lis-lis-l-lis-l-lis-a-l-l-lis. But, the career-in-the-cep-a-l-l-lis-lis-lmas-a-lis-lis-lmmus. and,

and then-Sombeyei-Reyes-Reyes-Rews, this this-duge and elite-briot-broad-Broclat-conumon to get to. This podcast's the end-in-to-the-cumuried, I'll also-unuching. This is, I'm actually, this, turn-in-in-one-Messle, and Armenian-Sorunner, in-Talat and Gemal-Paselian

where we're-Machers, the part of these, this is the anutalach-in-a-Mimaroly and, who-in-in-Mor-o-o-o-Povil profile to look and this isnton-five critical onemines

a word of such say like a mass-based profile to look at 1915 in the

time in the new pancerer of and in the newcraty mechanism how is we're

notclend we're methodological and howlomel how much this this

this is a time and time the time methodology and the time the time

in the time mercey how daraltors, I'm, big resim to get a quite quite quite-closher, a cliche, but

the right, the thing, the world's clichelor dundering, the good in son of, micro-o-o-o-each- chalismally

and you know al-a-alek-a- al-a-a-a-a- time, I'm the work-e-encephosel in-en-en after-an-o-lioner when---lip-ioner

very-l-l-l I-l-l-ch-l--l--- I said, that's the book's the main meram and the question was the people, I'm

why motivations with this to dochement, and here in micro-o-o-o-o- look-and- in the collective-siddet

hadisses in, this to-such- and in-sru- -slimslamers, and the different, the, social, ideological,

and, the ide-lililil and, in-Nism dares in, so, of, also,

a, I mean, motivation and the file categories, faill categories, life-hacieler, the state-meamoran, a head-meamoran, a market-meuron, this book. Actually, methodologic-in-a-prographic a challenge. What demetects? Prosopography is the way.

Esasance-a-persona-userno-as-a-dermil around, or the person-as-as-a-duner-nation, the time-in-scias-oci-lis-ic-climiming, political, sociologic, inclin, understand an important a methodology aeroical

approach. Here, also, the people around the kind of the same time, the same

the same, the person, and the kind of, the kind of in a time and the micro-dunayal

andnamamuses and, also, the different macro-perspectifel to top-a- pathosos

in-cithing in-cassap in-a- panimimil And the Armenians'er's people's in the organization,

bureaucratic or bureaucratic over people from how much actually asked it's not a question specifically

about. Taborolo like bureaucraters and the community life and to be life-kiylarraiser in the

in the time in the time, if everybody's maloomalomu with the community's

the truthical a matter or the copus this, this matter of the matter of the matter of the matter of

He said, he was on the argument with a other challenge again, here here, perhaps here, Hans Lukas Keezer in Talat-Pasha biographies. Kizzer, the new regime,

modern Ulus' government, the current curciful figureler, and also Mustafa Kemal him, he said, only, Tala,

Pasha's, the omusersers that's up, I'm just, I'm going to be put them, more somutelighter, I'm trying to

, I'm, this, I'm, looking, and, work, bureaucratic figures look at looking at I'm trying to and I'm

trying to I'm going to I'm going Talae Naze, Dahlia Nazir, later, after 1717,

after I'm in Istanbul's T'Ans T'Altan and Wondon on the one thought,

I'm seeing that Chalotan'n' Ch'n'an'is' and hishikki messi and other ittyachers' ...gorithmings,

and gubernil, the bureaucraters, tele-opt-drats, and technocrats, new regime, they're very positions, they're in many

cadro-allel had. This reason, Mustafa Kemal, Taleb, the, of the, itat and

sadacleth from, and the bureaucraters, he's in them, we're doing it, a other methodological

hat, maybe, he, the collective- shiddlet- action- or the, of the,

in the, in Osamaada, shiddette action. These are, of course, collective shudet elements,

all the organization, and theiric, bureaucratical mechanism, give us, because this such a social social

and social badissus, the community, to come in the fund etudes, a lot-ypunn and

having been, sook-n- crime-un- and the social-al-lid- people, Mustafa-Rash-Git people,

people, the social-o- They're alligils to have saw them. So, so much-mawlety-kind of a shiddling in a matter-al-al-a-lure-a-all- but it's

in-acted-lis-unmas, but the way-lac-eas- us-magnan-as- times-each-old. Edil-lis-olde chisdye-eachever, and these people, all the time-a-eatim-eat-olde

people, a little Mustafa Rechat-Mimarolyn's in-gis-urlunned, here, you know, turn-in-in-ur-n-n-n-n-lund- this, This how comeramsallishol-laughtsard, I'm sure. If, of, obviously, if you're, obviously in mind,

maybe you're actually, Mustafa Rechat-Mimaroly, hisn't, how kind of signer-drawners, then we've been talking about, it's notarming. This Armenian's sorrundhack-lawful-loat. And this carmarselyerner, hem-in-son-duneminded, and the Cumuliette's in the early years'

with the history with. The book's-an-a-dress-argumentary one of the actually shalt the government sublim in the

certainly the American about about it's about it and it's a time the

time the history and the ideological hummatt and the ideologic and that's

the first the person is the title is and the time and the government in the

government inerer subitusun and the talin sucian and the termincii under

I'm, the one of the one of the 150'n't in back in Asat Uras' and I mean used to L'OLA

like a book. Mustafa Rechat, Esat Uras, than to this matter also, Asat Uras, and I'm

together together they're much people, each othererer they're all overr we're saying, we're saying, we're gonna

Mr.Refat and the Ranii-Mezerati community, or, I'd-Dat-Murkisin, kilt-isimimisin, basque-alting al-nation

and them and the state'shousieting halal get they're in Mr. Mustafa Rechat's this

the real-of-all in the World Warbend in the Osmanla propaganda and the and the

Russian-Nos Verlera and as I just said I've got uh-uhus and

the general the tenel to the times. One of things about

about all these allgill we're we're how much Mr. Roshat

Mimaroo alu his the money and calem-almish. These are four-jit-old-out-assarlem, but Ombri, Saldi, but Ombri-Siddina

y'i-Namaya reaffed-in. Now, this annularinds the issue and many-Messelsene related to other, they

in the heartraten. Now, here, here, here, Mimaroel, this, hector, this mehue, provocation-the-us underindind,

devlete, and his demisiesiesies, it-T-Rakki from, hermeney-Melelel Shulashir-laught-you-lawed. So, they've been given, the government-hysitin to

halel get riddled, our, we, ourupal, we, the, the world, we're people, and the other than the result of

those are the provocation-ta- tabir-in-a- tabby-y- we're-so- we're- in-a-lis- against,

you know, the, and, again, it's-e-est-ean- enth-in-est- -in-one- all-it-n---- a very cararer-al-et-Urasa, lookersan,

Bilal Shimshire, Hikmet Ozdemire, and Turka, A-Tov, and, all of these the Armenian messilessing yi-elan-a-livene in the argument in one-a-copi as you can't,

in the same time, the American messeles, the government-the-vvvvvv a government-vety or a lot-e in this view in the American-one in the other

men-e-the-one- in-in-the-urman- in-the-cour-in-all- the, the Armenians, one case the fallacet's boyutlar and

allem out of the kind of the tachchir, hastallick, them all of these to in these things to

do you know in the war and the people of unfering chinnihielan erminilery is kind of

and that the matter of that inacte indiogical motivations totally gozard edelelian ermeney devrimcences

re-attfed and overta overtae overlae there, there's a problem is Talat-Pa-pacha's a fadishly

this isnation Armenians and the guayalelan isalal-ed-e and allem order of the government's form of course

in the all the yearn't there's there's a six-a-sor- an off-a-sion a post-an- perspictive-

and here esat Uras and Belar-S. Shimshirin in be similar test- Rastlamak Mn't-A

M-San-A people in Turkey's in Turkey's they're in Kiyam, Tethhis, Ayaklanma, all the word-sulchel in,

in the retentering. This way, Khamurangur, Khamurang-Gur, Kyiathov, Yusuf Alachowlo, Hikmet Ossdemi, Kempel-Cheek, Kempel, Kemp,

Remymi-Mex, especially, Tuk-Turk for them, and most of the Turkish-Tarik Kuhn as well, this part of

and TALAT's GOSbebeye, Mustafa Rechat, the an astuternal the churnes all, they, they're allempsiola. Here,

maybe a 24 Nisanna get able we're 24 Nisan 1915th tooklamal when Mustafa Rechat,

I'm in bureaucratic conuptu he. This tutulam in the subacacian hadisis

you're asking, Kimdh Misakyan and this the hadissan and the argument

and your argumentes and the time of whether now Mr. Roshat

Kismisis Ski Kirst Sire Rolfi then, Armenian Massas Sheffi will be. This is actually the 2nd Shubbe's government in government.

Muzer, or the unsurlar, these are all the unislim, mualifet, also adlanderlundr. Resmian, maybe,

there's fidey there, is there, is a legal unsurlors of the control, and the other with

those with the dosialersers and putlmation, the first subbed, so, and, the,

actually, the, the, the, And the Dushmanlanders'clock with usharmes'nilers' We're sure we're saying it's. I'm going to, because 1st and 3rd shubes, in, because Bulgari and Rumsian, the Rumsailer with,

thoseman-Musevili-lary-in-lawing, their own-one, three-chub there. But, second shub, husseternal-Illerni-Lewel about. I'm saying, 24-Nissan, 15th, tutuclamal-upil when, Mustafa Rechat, Elmany Masas, sheff, now a commser.

24 Nisand, of Istanbul's Americani, and theistecher, especially puttucklety from, in 24 Nisan,

in 1915, a bit of maybe that should be 24 Nican Medi-Gern, a big felacet, the,

yassin' symbolic a day, but, and yet, 24-Nisan, 1915, in,

some-d-SI-SI an-SI-SI- operation, details, the, in-in-in-in-sin-sin-sin-sin-sin-sion-sin-sin-sin-sioned, , and the dahlia nezarety's

the security uninsed a system of synchronized a very much, and quium-titizly and adetal a way to dolemia

an issue. This is a very much not much because it's symbolic day we're going to we're

going to we're not we're not sure. Because the time Van's the russes time in

the russar in the years of the years of the timegely imparatorly the people who

question between the 24 Nisan so it's a atmosphere in the time the action in the

year year to the end up the time the chirin Rottas in Rottos in Lodosos Syria to Ruey to

and derzor we're saying here in 1915 after. Now, operationon is also Mustafa Rashat

Anna-Actor who is being to beinmack I'm, first of the April Talaad Pasha, Dahlia Nazir as a whole

Idari Birmes to give him under him and then this telegraph over alladoled to alladalatical Dahlia docketal there,

here's, there's, these people, these people are what are, what are you and what are what you're

doing they're talking about, you know, on 1414 from it's 24th in December 1915 to gollul in

years, especially in 24th, 1915 to get to the tutulanan Istanbul, Azadamart, not in the same time,

the MISRs, America, or in Geneva, also, Bulgaria, in Afghanistan, or those the lastmala, the yearnesty, the Germani Devimcian Federation,

uiels, and, people, and they're puttuklan and hectoring, and heirs' and, sometimes, they're

making, and, sometimes, they're in their, surgulary surguling, there, So, Mustafa Rechad, if English-Yxed Comsherly in the elinthekhannes in the

elintheading in the legioners, we're backtimore, testchally a chenegener, because he's-censka-ma-law-lawful-lawful-lawful, people, and with it, the English-Yxem-Comcerlary to have, written-lark. This, this 24-Nisand-Nusually,

Armenia-Aidding, The listes are take, take, are control-ed-lid-ed-lety-lawed, Yardincer, Al-Irault-Nusah, he, he, he's-a-an-Nusufthew, in 1915, now, now, he's-in-of-N-Sach-Sach-Yan,

Shashi-S-S-Dey-Mak-Yer-Gas-Gas-lety-a-lac-lars, he's-lety-old, one-year-a-old, one-u-a-old, Because Misakian, essentially, in 1999, Namravand's in Karmakamlian time that's caramacombe-downe Arsumnaccarus'h-Gasetessing,

editorlun, in Missaciann, a Erzincanly, 1884-doom-loumlu, misakiann't a note-dofdery there, in factored in the cheetahe-lis-lis-lid all the detailer, and in-gun-gun-a-one-to-one

and this deftar-in-in-one people in-in-heat-in-in-of-eckesesesesesesemes, And, especially, the itilaf-guishmen against 1915th-in' into chak-during Mishak-Akihan, 28-Marct, 1916, in Istanbul, in Istanbul-in, each, different hucerrillas, but, down after Mustafa Rechatine and Kishechian's job-in'nchabler, son-u-u-o-operation,

galathe. Giac-lade, after, eminiette-um-I-in-lawing and there, there, Mr.each-Rat-in'-gum-in-lawed, and talimathe, with him-a-marsh-bue-marned So, but it's so much of the

time, he's in the menhya-minas men's the merdumbollah indicted, intirate, intirisubes

there. This is a time in the time, they're in their own there, and then the

time in the talk about, Mr. Rhehatt with talking about, in Paris, in Paris' in Paris'

hisah Mischakiaan, France-Cablet than, the time, two-bindler in two-binders in order

in, there's, there's For example, why's Why isn't, a certain Inns the surrogues in surrogues in terms, he said, he's not-applied,

I'm, like, I'm very, I'm, I'm, do, he's due to, what, and what he says, he, says, you, you know,

you're doing, you, he'lllors, and, you're, talking, them, and everybody knows, and, he, he, Ravis-Misakian,

he, he, the, Mabus'an, the men, Mabus'an, the members'n, Kikor Zorah, in terms of,

Sorgue, Sorking, he was puttled and he said about about about it, helde Bedibeye, Istanbul, Emniate,

Umbi, Mooder, Mooder, Yieti, Mooder, he, Dishat, he said, you, do you, do you, too, she did, shithmissue,

and he was a heartlesslessless there, he was, helde, and he said, Misakian, this time, Erzum and Sivass

to the Armenians to know what he was, he was actually, a time a traditional a kind of curban and

phalal and we're in it's quite you know that in Sivasa in the people in shepherdsurum

in, you know, the airssar people, you know, where did you, again, where did you

mean, Misakian, Halkarasins is called it, and this time to also Mustafa Rehachat

Arraya here, he's in every day, you know, you know, you know, a time

you're, and isarlii Misakianan and badriiiiiiiii the area, we're we're a cold years, we're in the

cold areas, we're in Sharmes, they're in shams, they're, they're so real, they're, yeah,

yeah, defter, is it's true, and the deftar and the deftar and the deftar and the other two Armenian

and the Americanianian, let's, they're in their use of their, they're also, and they're

also, somebolic and shifreler there, these, what's, what's, the word,

They're misakiann't this, this shifre what means, or this metaphor what's signet-ed-it-it-it-you-all-you-all here, this ispirit, what-you-deming here? Some are, actually, mis-sac-hand-hand. This, I'm-shoulding, this, I'm saying, this dialogue, a police-mudor and a bureaucrat-memor

as much-Mexh-Mew-Ras-Ull'n-Rexir-old also. You know, this leicely and the issue-in-law-the-sus-oldeus-oldeck-eck-echis-eck-eck-eckerned, Sechee and used the words, careric-verice-a-actors, what I believe, emre-altinder-altern, like a bureaucrat's zigniateness in-appermin'y attention to me, it's very sharp-ciful. Tam, this son-solidding here from,

I mean, you know, you're in deemines, a orderlety-by-lawful, a bureaucrat, actually, a police-mudor-old, but, but, here, this fial-lick-allelism, and, this filial-lidly-arlis-ar-a-rarsing, So, one, and, of them

over the emirs, it's the, in a bureaucrat, more than, more than, more than, this, this, how do you,

the two-fail-lick with each how much how much you, how much, you know, this type of, this type of

social, political, operation is, we're doing, we're getting, a, part of, and,

the, in the, people, the, it's, it's a lot of this lot of the,

a kiddesel a issue in. So, there's assas sort of the people and the people's different cases of the

people and the instead how? Istriac and the, and the kind of the culture and the

prokary and bureaucraty this farili, this sort of in the formathing about when. I mean,

it's the needynezzarate and the eminiette in, in the, in the community,

in the, in the, the, a kind of own-ggy an issue-a- a tern-a-tlene

there's, if it's a good-egettee in the real-easement in the verylegy un-sul-as- after-re-

now-and- how much the book, it's, and the bureau- and office-de- thing, the mem-in-

people-in- people-in- such-lerecter- a operation and the combination and the operation,

this-of-the- action-the----- Oikrim-s-conus-conus-conus-conn't, physical-shed-hury-strothed and bureaucratic-hid form of, out of order here. This is, Mustafa Rechart-like technocrat. Bedri-Bei-Bee-Key-Gy-Key-Kythekner-Ky-Kykriklai-ekyllis-Refiqqa, Zeynil-A-Lezhury-N-Eyghers-Eyndes-Rew-Suc-Mahalsals-Mah

organization in the kithed-with- edimler in Armenian-surgunler in the life-as-as- and,

especially the such-mahal-hatt and the use-in-law-eastern, the thing, in the turn-in-in- -lack-in-a-lap- there.

My-such-mn't, and in-Maltai gone to in-mlete in-one-the- back-the-the- other muh-luggul-Rugged there,

I'm-the-the-such- my-suff-suff-suff-sifes and the Law and Nisamlar Dares in, Memor than another thing I'm from, I'm from the Adof Aymann's

the last one of the same in the same in the inshaping unctal a emmany nefretty in the

I'm, I mean I'm, I'm I'm actually, and I'm a very hermany nefretty in the kindatine,

I'm, when, if they're doing it, and if they're not, I'm not, Ahiman with

Amman's actually, she said, the, the, I'm very hasass a dogma. I'm, just a set and

can't diemame. Kishisely other than imasel of any other than the idea of the end up

and upor upor at them. So, it's about how much Mr. Ratchitin'n't Tuscala Elmany-Nas

and other women and other than people, it's modern a bureaucratory in. This is, Weber's

modern bureaucracy in called the demir-cafess metaphor of were, mechure, Mimaroel for it's

being sure, I think it's difficult. Because he's given to the way of working with it's quite

self-detic and with usuping, sometimes he's even in the person, he's still even in the last halelel,

Mustafa Rechat and then American people in the time in the role and up uslenddy with the

way, there's any apollotetic a talk, no, I'm, I'm at

almost I'm, I'm about, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

I'm, I didn't, at least, Haktah, the addimler in the and it's in front to the government to make, and it's a

great thing to do give to doggia in a lot of work to docket and it's, a lotto-and-cli- cli-cli-cli- but actually

this, but we're talking about it, we're talking about, asasas itibarily, Mimaroel's and, especially, Sook-Crims-Sournars,

career, Mustafa-Kemal-Lidli-Leadly, in the abutistist in a number of idyllard-in-lawed-lawed-cimalist cadrolar in the new-cruedian-in-cruedity-in-in-lawed, you know, a file-in-cumuritian community-olde, so-a-net-by-by-becky-cuh-old. Tom, actually, Mr. Mustafa Rechat-Mimarolyn't community-in-in-shaired-in-a-oldeat-oldeat-o

and the other-de-de-the-cli-cli-in-a-cli-oldeat-a-oldeat-a-oldeplii-oldepli-old. of the meaning maybe little detail-landerable. Bilhastada, actually, the Kurds

sort of and Kirt sort of Racheat Mimaroly has been a career in this is actually this time to

this time. But, you know, you're a Malta surguni don't know and maybe this kind of

our time our time Maltaii Mimar-Nusuf Mimaroel and Maltan Dundundundus and a

community bureaucratu-of- as a process, how maybe a a bit of a little bit There's,

sorumly, this iserate-erabing listelan from the form of the other, again, Armenian Aydelan,

and Ayaa and Ibrahim, there's, in anyahe elimler in marusk al-as- and

a report and then, and Mustafa Rehah Tutuklanu. Bekira in a place, and there,

in the sortgustsund, I, he's just a most bit a memor being, he's,

he's, he's, and he's only, and he's not, and and the problem of them

about about. It's an Armenian-Aidonlars Dr. Avedis Nakkashan. Avedis Nakashan and a good, a hapabablafflian to write uphe

he says, he says, I, I'm, aftanian insimler and vererer and their own my sake and my

sortulululululuk and under and my matter and there's there, I'm like

a goodlyly like my name to my lehmii me a waymah and me me from them from

Avali Snaqqqashan, I'm going to, in other, I'm going to say, Avelis Nakashan, can't, he said, but even if even even

even even even and it's a important, or much much, Ermenianian telephed to beeped to his own

such a time in the answer of him, he said, and then again after Istanbul March, 1920,

then since, it's, malta surgune during, the time, the matter, the reason, I'm saying,

the war's sluptuess of and the First of the World War in the Armeni-Nihelian in the and hectored and used to

the assailable, it's also also Hsuyn Jalchin Arachillillie, with Cahit Mekuptu-Gov- and, Cavit-Begh-Mad

said, I'm, anything, I'm not- anything, I'm-u-u-d- -u-l-u-you- I'm,

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, the organization- -e-is-e- is-ethe, organization-etit-e,

what's, I did, he says, this is he-in-a-in-lark said, heye-in-law- and Gavit-Pee-Irish Gives-Comserly with, especially and he'lllis

here, hectorment, but they're doing it, but these to do you not-lety-gruishes in-a-Naw-Nas-er-Gu-Cas-er after this eser-de-each-tok-u-u-u-lety in-N-N-A-N-Mac-Urotho

and in-N-N-Card-Lead-Lead-Lead-Lead-Las-old, and Tokhat Valice as a yearvene in 2009-22 in the Zongulak Valalis

Zongulak vallis old and his own the the Kymakam-Look Dornomom-Dom Vilililions because of

the Rihalekly Riteite Rue Vlaidels to they're gonna a anthropolite with withal withaliann't with allopal

in-inch bululomeliannard in the one-and-the- The 3rd Cildee with, in 2020, Ali I'm the editorlund, agained, agained landlunded, I'll let me, Al Elmas,

a day in ay innombed, these, I meaner Rechatbe, from end up. Now, Mustafa Rechat, 9thul, 1923, from, 1,000, 1924 to come

he, he made, a new-O-and-Doh-Wilite Tefti-Shi-EVille, there. Onecletly, mifetishly, Sir,

I'll-eat-E, Bitlis, Gench, Mouche, Wann, and Hakkari, Mnithic, Mnitkaz, and Svarek, too, back, and Iqar back. Now, these places, the government's, nufusun, the community's un-in-ridden, bringing, hathes,

and a-suffer, and civilization, medin-elish-elmes-gare-are-old years-ol-ah-lare-hurted, in this-mant, in-law-lach-lars, rapporteur, there, these, and, again-eal-ehy-lation It's,

and then these par parloring and bureaucracy, the government and bureaucracy in the publiceroying,

the world, interiors, and the medin-elisitor- and the mediaeastern, and the people,

Mr. Roshat, Kyrtler, the kind of a time of the time endodemochic,

social mendisit project, let me, the end of the 25-Tahrly Shark Islaat Plan,

umumum Mufetitish Rapportals, 1927 and 14th-Haziran, 1934, the art of Iskan canunner,

and 35th-tunceli canun. But all the canun-lars and the the form of the form of the problem's,

a bureaucrat ought to be we're actually aft, anthropologistly with Mh-Tryrd to-Syir-Tac-a- where-ir-ir-

-in-sci-upus- people, kim-kind-kis-lip-a-lis- and-o-y-o-y-eye-ssays-a- , and-in-in-in-in-a-lund-a-a-old to them in their raporlar in

yansitue. Now, today, we Kirt messeles, feodilitae and arguments are very much there's,

here's a little bit of there's but hector about, but hectorctor times than the country,

the government, the bureaucrat part of them, being the saying, it's very very, the,

Kut's geography of the report in the reportlars in the and the,

and, the government, in the government in those in those world in the 90s'clock when it's

making the moment. This is the the way of the cructsing musked in muslary and muslary and economic

as well as you knowxiniette you're a body and the government's social economic political

in terms of in economic falliates modernization and and the and the the world's and the

problem are this problem this is this is the 19th century's sonn't the

time we're going to get them democratical ecstensed reform talepernic, this economic

indigemegee, merceiiiii and modernist and devlete the society part of

bohulting and it got into and it's immoriolde the indianet in the end of

the kind of his kind of and it and it all much much and it

and the zinietetinieting devletletes devletes the government beck in we

say we're well as's if Kyrkler in security, the same, this, it's a law, it's a law-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-lataa-lanteleptal of the Aleppo'uelsing,

in the timeeney-a-old time in fronteldered reformed in a reason. There's, here, here, now, what, podcaste to be get-outed-outher, we can't, a, let's, let's talk about, in-sobett in-spethed-in-a-oldearder inus in your name's, the other than,

the world's, you know, I'm going to this question, I'm this story. Bureaucratic faillelan role in, this messalien,

the matter this matter, collectif shiddette yet annamam's how long as a lot, modern devlette bureaucracy and

the the world, we're gonna be able to, weberd from, here, whether,

modern devletting shiddette, the key in the end of but I think that's the second one I'm a second

one more that's more kind of a kind of this should be being used being able to take actor

as well these. These are these who are who are people? So,

that we also very sterile we're the bureaucratical organization, in the technotark

and the people, especially this the shiddletes certainly this

disduing and the different and the So, you know, Armenians or the Ottoman Empirelunders other unsurals, them in terms of,

they're in front of the Romans, we're in, again, Balkan geography in the Muslims coming down felon feralds, we're in there's in the bureaucraters from, there's

there'shally in the realelers'n't not overpathy uphous, the air-outher-outher-acted not, so, so, there's, certainly a,

bad-and-a-dott- about, we're, in the time-and-a- all-to-all- and top-y-kew an whole-al-looking a high-looking,

and this fallacet thinking-kind, I'm not quite physical-sid-bordination without, this is in the mind-a-one-a-

and the same-a-siddett- and, and also, the state-ad-lund-lut- and, and, very important of the people,

and this person, this is an ideological-lil-luner or how-niet-dun-lioner and, and, and, Essentially, modern Ulus'

government's actually authentic prucily ought to to do not really. Because this the government

bureaucratus, security apparatus, just ideologic apparatus not, these are these other bureaucraters, but all over

doing. It's, like, many things, national socialist party's party's

in the Nazi Almangias in the in Monsan in, there, Susanheim

and Götz Ali, the two important Holocaust and the time the time

the artchers, Hitler in the work-in-satistiches, mimar, and the type bureaucraters, they're looking, they're doing,

this system, this regime, should be able to do their things, they're doing they they're doing. I'm, I'm a,

I'm a time, I'm, I think, I, think I'm, I'm, I'm, thinking I'm, this, I'm, people,

that's, that's, Roshat, Uras, BIL, Shimshir like, bureaucrat, I'd,

they're, They're in Turkey Camus'un's oldic-dark in-sia-cuh-hook, adalette, such and the casea-sue

and their core-inemines saw-you- these figures, you're looking, actually, the sort of Mimaroly

people, a quillem, and, the real-and- say-lermen the law-supu- and the community-in-

and-a-lars- and how-lantil because, because, the-one- the-the-law- was-the-law- who-o-o-

-the-cli-cun- , Canaanism, from the court in the unlawyazes, looking at, a firm in the

top of the group of the end up at least in the siciline there's a d'Uraq as a bureaucrat as a maro'o'un's

one of the party social crime, and the criminal-bottomosal law-at-each- in-sha-itement by,

I think that this Turkey's this a-felsels and commusal between, there's a one-ridden-a- one-be-be-bos-

about, it It's telling me. This reason, the law and nizam dairies in theharmes in Mimarolyan's people, like, with the armeni folk in, you know, political and

comusal-over, wasiflundrism to make, very important and good-o-sue and cursesmings, soly, I mean,

the new-cumriety and, such-and-seh-saulam- in-is-sha-sum- in-ishish-lilers-it-sue-law-eas-eus- and, and, And, also,

in-shaeat-eager-ed-eas-soyle. Today, I think, Turkey-took-chul-suling around the reason in a lot of, so, today's we've seen, democratical-lech-lech-me,

un-as-lap-lark-larsing, un-sion-as-as-a-lunders, but-and-a-loss. Who-lunders? -one-law-law-law-as-law-as-a-law. Or, how-as-a-ccath-huc-huc-huc-unmmunmutment-in-inmach-inmothin. Durned, durned, Durnip Nareh,

Giacke, in the back in the, back in the, back in a look at least, so I'm incalfe in a real-in-law- like,

the file-in-lawing, and the, in the, and the, in the, the, got-st-st-and- their,

pat-l-l-l, cur-l-all-, there, here, pro-sop-graphy deveree. All these, in, in, And, in Turkey's

the common and the common of the non-democratic canala, what I mean am-act-mamas or the

not-as- whether, why-sker-d-der-be or-siv-dard-l and so-and-a-lars- and then-lis-lis-lis-lis-lis-a-cli-counter. Thank you, thank you,

thank you. Thank you, I'm, in this program, Dr. Umy-Kort-Kortl's with us with, Weillutkurt's Aras

yankan- Aras-Yinclin- law-staking in the book-top-tem in the sub-spet we're

a talk- about a lot-in-lis- podcast in website from you'll-sys-N- online-stice-N- you'll-lis-

and go-sh-ch-l-l.