OverDrive - Caldwell on Spain's World Cup victory, Messi's greatness throughout the tournament, and what's next for Canada Soccer

Episode Date: July 20, 2026

TSN Soccer Analyst Steven Caldwell joins the show to discuss his favourite moments from the 2026 World Cup, Spain’s dominance in the Finals, Lionel Messi’s impressive performance throughout the tournament and if he could return for another World Cup, who will Messi pass the torch to as greatest active player, and if Canada can ever reach the pinnacle of soccer greatness.

Ryan Hayes, Jonas Sego, Dave Festchuk, and a man you have seen on TSN, well than anybody else in the last six weeks, Stephen Caldwell. Thanks for having me, guys. And we got you back in here. I'm back, I'm back, yeah. Just can't get out of this studio. No, it's, yeah, it's okay. It's been a great tournament, so it's lovely to be here and chat about it.

That Vancouver set, man, I remember asking you when I saw you downtown, because I had heard news months ago that you're not going to believe what this thing looks like. Was it Jackpool Plano? Yeah. at? Like with the background and just being in Vancouver for that long, it must have been really fun. Yeah, it was absolutely spectacular. It was just such a beautiful set and obviously it was outdoors as well, which is a nice thing you guys know what it's like being in the studio consistently. If you're indoors and there's no natural light, after a few days it gets you. But you had the

mountains in the background, you know, you had the water, you had the sea planes. And then as the tournament kind of went on at Jackpool Plaza, we started to get a crowd in front of us as well, which was really cool. It gave a great atmosphere to some of the games there. especially Mexico, a Columbia game there, a couple of other South American teams. Three, four thousand would come to the square, you know, to the plaza. It was so good.

And we had such a great time. Vancouver was a brilliant host. Yeah, for every nation that was there, I know Canada played the two games there, but every nation was enjoying the city. It's such a beautiful city. And a small footprint, so everybody was just crammed into that little ten blocks,

you know, in and around Grandville, it was fantastic. Yeah, it looked really great. I mean, our experience in Toronto, we were talking about the last hour. We had a blast here, of course. There were a lot of memories that came out of, you know, the World Cup, but what do you take from it now that we're through it? Now that you look back on it, like what will be the lasting kind of imprint for you? Well, I think about it first and foremost from a Canadian point of view,

and I think we put on a tremendous show in Toronto and in Vancouver. I think back to what was it probably five weeks ago when we were leaving Toronto after the Bosnia game Kevin and I were getting a flight to Vancouver for the next day and we were sort of looking at each other saying can it be better than that? That was unbelievable we were a little apprehensive that Vancouver

was going to feel the same way as it did in Toronto and we weren't disappointed it was magnificent in Vancouver as well first game that we had there Australia, Turkey was fantastic it was half and half in that stadium and it was great atmosphere. And then Canada played Qatar, of course, which was a special game that goes rained in and Canada played so well.

And even that Switzerland game, the way that the crowd was trying to suck that ball in at the end of the game. So we're a little jealous when we watched Portugal, Croatia. We wanted to be back for that one. Yeah, we watched it and we enjoyed it, but we were jealous that we weren't there in our kind of home city.

But we had such a time in Vancouver. So the show that Canada put on really stands out to me, the way that we welcomed the world and we showed how hospitable we are as a nation, but also how much we love the game of football, soccer, whatever we want to call it. And I think that was the most important thing. And then I think a little thing to add to that

was probably the performances of some of the smaller nations. You know, we were expecting Norway to be pretty good, but they were incredible, really added to the tournament, beat Brazil, of course, Kept Vird. Well, the story of the tournament for me, the way that they played as a team. and took Argentina so close in that knockout game.

So there's so many stories, so many great games, and such a great experience to be part of. And yet, you know, the best seemed to always rise to the top in this tournament, right? There's never a fluke winner at the World Cup. And when you watched that game yesterday, like, what was your level of surprise that Spain was as absolutely dominant as they were? Not surprised, actually, Dave. I was hopeful that Argentina could put up a fight.

Argentina had been my pick for probably a year now. Just thought they could have done it again, and I thought Messi still had the performances that we saw on them. So I thought with that experience and the know-how and, you know, the dark arts that they use, I thought they could go all the way because I knew they could win in different ways. But I underestimated how good Spain are. And I think they started slow. They always start getting a slow. They're not a great team against smaller nations.

They're better against the big boys because of their control. and then watching them kind of develop through the knockouts and obviously the way they beat Franz preparing for that final I had a lot of conversations with Kevin Luke and I'm like I just don't know how Spain can lose I just don't know how anybody can break them down and that's how it turned out to be

of course Argentina were nowhere near the best and focused too much on spoiling the game but if they had came out and played them it might have been 3 or 4-0 that's the reality Spain are the most complete team in the world right now. They systematically defend, attack, control as a team, and they brought their best football as the tournament progressed.

And that's always a good sign. The winners normally get better. It goes along, and I think Spain did that. So did you see it from Messi's perspective? As he ran out of gas, ran into just a team he wasn't capable of breaking through with, his teammates didn't do enough to put him in a spot to succeed, because I think a lot of people were waiting for that.

Someone without a dog in a fight, I was kind of banking on a magical moment, especially with Mbapé scoring a couple of times the day before. You're like, all right, the gold book, and he didn't think he was going to score a hatching again in the final. But when you see what happened last, like four years ago, that final was maybe the greatest game we've ever seen or close to it. Yeah. What did you see at a Messi that didn't allow him to pop yesterday? Well, I think we've got to recognize that that final was a shock.

That's not normal. Like four years ago. France, Argentina. Yeah. That is like, that was the best final of all. time and normally these finals are really tight there's not a lot in them so we expected that kind of game we knew that

Argentina were not in the place to come and play Spain and be open so the game plan was actually quite good in the first half but I think they had to at some point break out of that and try and be progressive and the opposite happened they got further and further back

and I think a lot of that has to go to Spain because they do such a great job of keeping them in their defensive half Argentina and just giving them no outlets. And Messi is outstanding, he's special, he's mercurial, but he needs the ball, right? He's not at a point now in his career where he can go get the ball

and he can go and sort of run past four and five guys. He's going to get the ball in his key spots and he can still do the damage. They couldn't get him the ball, Brian. He was just waiting and resting and sort of like hopeful that he would have his five minutes that, to be honest, he'd had in a lot of the knockout games. He wasn't great for 90

minutes in any of the knockout games, but he had his little spell where he came alive. they couldn't get him the ball to do that. They had a little flurry at the end of extra time, but just not enough there to take it through. And, yeah, the best team won. Do you think he's done, or could we see Messi in four years? 43 playing in a World Cup.

He walks around for 90% of the match. I know. And it's in Argentina, at least the opening game four years from now. If it wasn't Messi, I'd say not a chance, absolutely ridiculous. but he is ridiculous. He's someone that does the extraordinary. So could he? Yes, he could.

I don't know if he's got the appetite for it. He looked really broken after the game. We saw him crying on the pitch. It did seem like a farewell to it, you know, just his face. But he said that in the past. He was in that stadium 10 years before, after a cop of America final where he lost him penalties. And he retired and he quit,

and he thought he had enough. And he came back and he's had so much success in saying. So I think he did the right to. thing, nothing too drastic, just wait and see have a break, see how he feels I think if he does feel good enough and he thinks he's got someone else to say at international level, we might see him

in the Cop of America in two years' time and he'll make commit to that, we'll know he'll play in that, and then if he feels good and it goes well, then he might push for another two, but I think highly unlikely that he tries to get to the next World Cup in 2030. I mean, four years is a long

time. It's a long time. Well, weren't we talking about it at the last World Cup? Is he going to play at the next World Cup? But can I ask, were you surprised that he had the impact that he had? Like to that degree, where, like, you would say he's the best player in the tournament? Yeah, well, the difficult thing is, yes, he does have that king of impact, but at MLS. So you're thinking, can he translate that to the best football in the world, to the World Cup? And I think there was a doubt that he had the pace still and he had the ability to go past people at that high, high level.

But he's done it. He done it in the first game. I mean, I still got it at this level. Yes, it was Algeria. But I think that gave him a lot of confidence because I think he's a player that, I mean, he's like superhuman, isn't he? He sees ahead of what's coming.

He's someone that, his teammates have said this in the past. He knows when they're going to win and when they're going to lose. They've had that feeling with him in the past. And I think he saw that he could impact games. He saw that he could kind of rest and walk and do all the things that you're talking about, Brian, and then be, you know, magical for five, ten minutes. And he's done it.

He's still so good. Can he keep that up for four years? It seems unlikely. Stephen Caldwell and studio. So what I have learned being in this business is the goat conversation is always turning over, right? Like right now he's got it, but the next generation is going to have their moment. And a lot of it is media driven, right? There's a 25-year-old football podcaster in Europe who's like, I didn't get to live the messy years over and all.

years. I'm here for the Laminumal years or I'm here for the Mbapé years. Like let's say it is it for Messi and Rinaldo's done and Maudrich is done. Like of the guys who we saw this World Cup and even the last or the euros a couple years ago when Laminumal showed up, which guy would you pinpoint us? Okay, that guy could, he's going to be chasing that goat status the next seven, eight, 10 years. I think you could legitimately say that Killing Mbapé and Laminia Mali are chasing that. Like, they got to do a lot, understandably, a ton.

But look at how much Mbapé scored in two world cups. I mean, if we're judging on World Cups, Mbapé, it's probably going to surpass Messe. Does he surpass Pelle, Maradonna even, just with that one 86 performance? I don't know. But you've got to do more than that. To be the best of all time,

you know, in multiple champions leagues, you've got to win five, six, seven, eight, the leagueas. You've got to go to another league, maybe, and go win there as well and you've got to do it for 20 years so and Bappi's not up for a while now to be fair to him and he's still at an incredibly high level he's still getting better he was for me the best player

of this tournament if you take it on you know just kind of spectacular performances throughout but they've got a long way to go to be messy and I don't think we'll ever see that same understanding the game that same intuition that same sort of fear factor that Messi creates when he gets the ball. I think there'll be outstanding players.

I think they'll rack up some incredible numbers, but I don't think they'll have longevity, and I don't think they'll strike fear into players like Messi did. Well, the reality is there may be a 10-year-old somewhere that we don't know of. And that's the guy. Yeah. And I was thinking of Brazil who had a really,

like, they barely existed in the tournament. Yeah. You know, and they didn't have that flare. They didn't have those guys that we've seen in the past, but that's the reality that there could be a kid out there that's coming that's not even here yet. Stephen Colwell in studio. Stephen, there's always a copycat aspect to sports right at the highest level.

I'm wondering, like, when you watch that Spain team just crush everybody in the way they did, are there lessons that other coaches and other developmental heads of sport in other nations are taking from that? I mean, what made them so good in your mind? Yeah, I had this very conversation about three years ago, Dave, with a friend of mine about their style and their identity and why aren't people copycatting that? Why aren't they sort of replicating

what they've done? It's a great question but I think what they have is a national identity, right? The team represents the people, they play in a style that's been developed over at least 25, 30 years. I say Guardioli, had a big part in that.

Obviously his generation of Spanish Barcelona players were pivotal to their success in 08, 10, 12. And they lost their way a little bit, but they still had that identity. They were still producing players of the highest quality. U-21s, they're always in the hunt for European championships and at youth level World Cups.

So there's a conveyor belt, right, a talent that's coming through. So doing someone at the young ages that creates what I call ballmastery, real technical superiority over everyone else. So then that allows you to go play a type of football that they play, which is possession base, which is triangles and movement and understanding of the game not just an attack but defensively as well to protect

goalkeepers and back lanes and to limit shots at your goal, you know. So the one word that the one overarching word that describes Spain is control. They just control the game throughout and they stick to their identity. So

can we replicate that as an example Canada? I don't think we should say oh let's just be Spain but I think going to understand what is our national identity and what could that football look like? And then how do we try and infiltrate that for six-year-olds right the way through to the men's and women's national team? That would be the key. And that is not an easy thing to do, but it's coming up with a plan, a document, whatever

it may be that says this is who we are, this is what our strengths are as a nation, this is what can athletes we develop and this is, you know, playing in our diversity as an example. we have athleticism. Maybe we can come up with a brand of football that suits our style and then just stick to it. England's a great example. They change all the time. They want to play possession. They never really do that well.

Then they'll play a bit more direct. They never really commit to that. They never commit to a style of play long enough to see the success. Spain have committed to a style of play for 30 or 40 years and they've reaped a lot of success. So in terms of what Jesse Marsh can take from this tournament and apply to the future, What do you think that would be? What did he learn about this experience that allows you to prepare for four years from now, presuming we make the next World Cup,

where we can go further than the round of 16? I think he probably learned that the very minor details are what matter at the highest level. Take the Morocco game, maybe there was five or six chances in the match. Canada had two or three. They scored two, Canada score zero. Or three in the end. They got that third goal, which else. forget about, but they were clinical when it mattered and they sort of got through the difficult

spell. So it's just understanding that at the highest level, moments in the match really matter. Now, is that an experience thing or is that a quality thing? Is that trying to put our athletes in more pressurized situations, whether it be the full national team or through the levels, as I said, you know, if you're competing at that high level through the youth ranks, then you get a better understanding of what it's going to be like. when you get to the full level. So I think we're kind of close. I think we did really well.

But I think we've got to demand more. I think Jesse will ramp it up. He'll demand more for these guys. They'll demand that they go back to their clubs and that they push themselves even further. Sileba gets that move, that next move to whatever, English Premier League. Higher team, higher level, you know,

and tests himself and then becomes a regular there that Tejohn Buchanan can fix the little things in his game that are maybe missing a little bit. and get to the next level. So these guys got to want more. They're going to be hungrier for the little taste that they got, a little bit in Qatar, some of them, and then again in the Home World Cup,

and say, well, what can I do in four years' time? I've aged on my side. I can be even better in four years, and I can bring that for the collective. So I think we did extremely well. I think last 16 was... Probably as much as we're hoping for. Not any better.

I think maybe we surpassed it, because I thought we'd get one knockout game and then we were hoping that the draw was good to us, which it was, we were better in South Africa. We should have been better than South Africa. They won the games they were supposed to win. Exactly. And we looked back at Switzerland and Morocco,

our two sides that are better than Canada. How do we get to that kind of, I call it maybe like second tier of international football, real top teams, but not the teams that can win it. We've got a chance of bridge in that gap in four years, but we've got to do a lot of work to get there. So what role of the,

Alfonso Davies have to play in that? Well, he's going to be a little selfish and get himself right. He's going to get his body right. He's going to figure out what's going on, what's breaking down in his body. An ACL's a big injury still. I think we've diminished what an ACL injury is in soccer

in the last few years because guys always come back from it. But when they come back, they take about a year to be up to full speed. We'll look at Rodry. He's not had a great season, Roder. He was in and out of the man's city side. He was injured again.

He reoccurred with a hamstring or something like that, like Alfonso. And then his timing was good enough that when he got to the World Cup, he was the best version of himself, player at the tournament. So Alfonso was probably still another, you know, sort of six months away for being at his best. But he's going to get back to that level. He's going to be at his best. And he's got to, again, ask himself some tough questions. What am I willing to sacrifice to push my game, to be even better,

to stay at the top, to continue to be a starting player in Bayern Munich or Chelsea or wherever he wants to go. And we need him to be that good because he's the one that there is special. He's the one that can drive the rest on. And I think he's going to be a little selfish to get back to his very best. Do you get the impression him and Jesse Marsh are anywhere close to being on the same page? It doesn't feel like it right now. I think there was

sort of I think Jesse Mars handled a lot of the media poorly at this World Cup I think

the way that he was keeping things for the media and I understand what his point was but the way he did that

I don't think was the right way to go about it I think on the field he did very well I think you know

the way that he put the lads out and the teams that he chose was right for Canada but I think in other ways there's things

that he could learn from this whole experience as well and the whole debate around is Alfonso fit, is he not? The conflicting messages for sort of Alfonso to Jesse

that could have been, sorry, that could have been talked about, I think. So I don't think they have the strongest relationship and I think there's a lot of work to be done there from both of them if they want to be successful. So I'm hoping that they have a lot of meetings in Europe that they get to know each other better, that they get to understand each other in a way

that helps the nation because they both have healthy egos, let's be honest, and they've got to come together for the nation, understand that them being as one, and certainly on the same page as you said, Brian, is better for Canada. Big time. Yeah, big time.

Stephen Caldwell in studio. Go ahead, Dave. The most important question, we buried the lead. There were a lot of the soccer purists, Stephen, who railed against the idea of a halftime show. Yeah. And yet, they had one. It was great. What did you think?

I loved it. It was great. Kevin was slagging me the whole time. He hates it. But he's miserable, isn't he? The purists were not overly ecstatic of it, but a lot of them. But a lot of things, right? The hydration breaks, 48 teams.

The hydration breaks have changed the game, for sure. Another coaching period that changed momentum. I'm not so happy about them. But half-team show was fine. Kevin had his stopwatch on his phone and I'm like, behave. It's the final. It was 25 minutes. It's normally 15.

The teams are slow to come out. Could be 18. What is 7 minutes? It was not a Super Bowl halftime, right? It was shorter. I thought it was great. it was fun. It brings in another audience. Shame the game was

not the best, but they watch a bit of the game, they love football, they become fans. It brings in a different audience, and I thought it added a bit of aromatized to a North American World Cup is what you'd expect. Yeah, exactly. We'll see if it continues in four years. You think we're moving towards 64 teams?

Yeah. We are going to end up there. Yeah. I mean, again, the purists are going to hate it. I understand that. But the reality is FIFA, much like the NFL, they know people are going to watch, people are going to pay for it, and ultimately once that becomes the norm

30 years from now, no one's going to remember when there were 32 teams. I tell me why I think it'll help, though, because the worst part of the 48 teams was the third games. The Jeopardy had gone, because they could work out how they would play and what they needed, and so there's a lot of really dull third

games in the group, sorry, in terms of who would get that third place team. so 64 makes it simple it's two feet's group goes through and it gets it back to that hopefully heavier competition although there's a dilution of the quality but some of the lesser teams did pretty well so I don't mind it I think it'll be okay and the cream will still rise to the

well it always will yeah the round of 32 was brilliant some great games and everyone thought oh the favorites of breeze passed whoever they play but there was a bit of jeopardy in that round of 30 that I think was a success and I think some of the performances from teams that we expected to just get blown away like

Cape Verde, Congo was excellent, you know, so yeah, I'll be interested to see how they divide that, you know, do they try and be fair again and allowing more Asian teams as an example and more Australasian teams you know, or do they kind of favour

Comic Ball and in Europe, UFO of course, that'll be interested to you. Yeah. I mean, I think his history would say you probably should allow for more European teams because that's where the money is. But they know they're going to be watching anyway. Yeah. That's the reality of what I think Invantino's doing here.

He's like, I've got to get more countries involved. Yeah. Because we've got Europe. It's done. They're watching. They're in. Yeah, I know. They're doing it.

Six of the eight quarter finalists for European. Yeah. So I think that was probably not a great sign for FIFA, sorry, that there was a lot of European teams. What are you going to do? Like, they're the best teams. They're the best. So if it is 64, get more of the minute, get more South American teams in it. I think, I actually think, and this is a bit of a hot take,

but I actually think that they might come up with some kind of playoff system that is in March before the World Cup or something like that, where that is a little mini tournament. And then you can kind of pack that with, let's say, eight European teams and eight the rest of the world. And then it's kind of a bit of a free-for-all. And you see what four or six go through, from that, you know. So I actually think they might come up with someone like that.

Like a playing or something. There's another money-making thing for them as well. They go to Qatar or Dubai or somewhere. Exactly. You know. In the end, money talks, man. And they know how to make it. To their credit. Like, you can laugh at it, but they're making money. They know what they're doing. All right, Stephen. Well, phenomenal job. Like you and everyone involved, it was absolutely incredible to watch. And it's too bad. It's over. You can't believe it's over. I saw you downtown six weeks ago. Just getting started. It's amazing.

Well, like yesterday. Yeah, it really does. Great fun. We had great fun. And, yeah, you can't happen with a casting crew and people in the background that make it so special. You guys know that. So, big thanks to everyone involved. We put on a great show.

We put a lot of work in everyone involved. So, yeah, what an experience. And we'll take it forward and we look forward to the next time. Yeah, wait. Absolutely. Great seeing you. Thanks for coming in. There is Stephen Caldwell joining us here in studio.

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