OverDrive - Hayes on Ujiri's legacy in Toronto, the shift of an era and Tavares remaining in Toronto

Episode Date: June 27, 2025

Bryan Hayes joined OverDrive to discuss the major news around Masai Ujiri's dismissal from the Raptors, the culture throughout Ujiri's tenure in Toronto, the formula of winning in his career, the ownership making a stance, John Tavares signing a discount deal, Brad Treliving's frame of view on contracts and more.

Given five days or less to accept a severance offer, you need EmploymentLawyer.ca. You actually have two years to file a claim for a severance package, which can total as much as 24 months pay. Call your Sam Firu and get what you're owed. EmploymentLawyer.ca. Listen to Tech Talk with Mark Saltzman,

Sundays at 5pm on Newstalk 1010 and the iHeartRadio app. The show that makes sense of the ever-changing world of technology, and you don't need a computer degree to listen. to you by LG celebrating 10 years of OLED innovation visit LG.ca Brian Hayes who joins us now on the show. How are you Brian? I'm not doing so well guys I'm not doing so well like this is so predictable It's been an ongoing bit on our show for like a decade now whenever there's a major news day I'm never on the show. I

We had this plan for weeks like we're out of Culp Down Woods the Lincoln Navigator Cup Oh dog versus Duffy and I just knew it like I'm I knew something was gonna happen It starts with the side then tomorrow signs the Dobson deal with CBA something else is gonna happen between now and seven o'clock I guarantee it yeah nice is signing yes 100% but crazy day I mean it obviously I guess MLSC and Rogers save some money today you know is that the theme of the day? That it besides out and John Tavars, like he said, to his credit, he signed a team friendly deal, but also to the credit of Brad True,

living in the Maple Leafs, because they knew they had leverage. John didn't wanna leave. He made it very clear. And if you don't wanna leave and you wanna stay somewhere and you wanna win, then I think this was imperative. And I think it's an important sign and we'll see what this means for Knives because I think there's a connection there, right?

We can all remember seven years ago Tavares signed first and then Willie and Austin and Mitch said, well, there's the bar. And I think if Tavares got paid either an appropriate amount quote unquote based on what the rest of the league Thought he was worth or they buckled and overpaid them then nice probably would have been sitting there saying okay Let's keep this party going but the party Possibly stopped here with Brad true. I think he held his ground. I credit John. He wants to be a part of it He wants to retire a leaf and that likely happens

Hayes, you know, we just had Danny Green on a member of the 2019 Raptors NBA championship team and Danny made a point I think I've been hearing from a lot of NBA people today is that you know you can let Masai Ujiri walk out the door but good luck replacing him how do you see it? Yeah I see it the same way I mean would argue, I'm not sure there's ever been a person more synonymous with a sports team in Toronto in my lifetime than Messiah and the Raptors. That includes Austin Matthews and the Leafs, you know, like Fladdy Guerrero Jr. and the Blue Jays. You can go back a long, long time. Like, they're synonymous. Messiah is the Raptors.

The Raptors have been Messiah for over a decade. And I think if you're a fan of the Toronto sports teams, what has happened here, regardless of how you feel about our pressure, which Raptors have not been good for a few years. They haven't been, and Messiah's been running the show. The Leafs stub their toe in the playoffs every single year. You had to get a hand with the Leafs, Messiah

with the Raptors. What you were getting was integrity and you were getting pure basketball guys and pure hockey guys. Now you have pure business guys like Keith Kelly and Rogers who run everything now it's it's kind of got like a teachers a pension plan vibe to it right now you know like that's kind of what sticks out to me and again the there are things to say about the side things to say about Shanahan and the way they built their teams and where the teams currently are for sure but they represent its stability culture credibility and Messiah more so than anybody for the last what 30 years, probably since I guess Pat Gillick, you know, like if we're

talking Leafs, Jays, Raptors, like the last executive to win something since Gillick would be Messiah. I think what's different between the Leafs moving off Shanahan and having Trey Living and Messiah leaving the Raptors and then Bobby Webster still being here is the roles are so different. Like Trey Living was a GM for a long time.

Shanahan had his fingerprints over everything, undoubtedly. But I always have been of the impression he let his GM breathe to an extent, come up with a plan, kind of push for different things that I'm sure he would bend on. Messiah's been doing everything for the Raptors for a decade. Bobby Webster's been the GM,

but he's really been the assistant GM. The Raptors fired the GM, the architect of the team here, and a guy that, again, has been synonymous with their team for a decade I'd say maybe the most famous executive, you know possibly again in the history of Toronto sports and you're just not going to replace that guy. What he created leading into 2019 and I get it six years ago at some point everyone's time runs out but them winning in 2019 like Fest you can speak to this, Ro you can speak to it, I think Frankie you can even though you're

younger than us like I remember when they arrived in 95 and I would say up until basically Messiah's arrival never at any point did I actually think the Raptors would ever win a championship like it was impossible in your wildest dreams it was never anything that was ever going to happen. Ever. And Messiah showed up immediately in conjunction with Tim Laiwicki and said, we're going to do it. It's going to happen. I'll be ruthless if I have to. If you don't believe that's fine. That's your problem. I believe, and I'm telling you it's going to happen. And his credit, he made everyone believe and he did it. He talked the talk, he walked the walk.

And now MLC Rogers, Keith Pelley, they've decided to move in a different direction. We had Danny Green on earlier, Hayes, and he kind of made the point that, you know, without Masai there, like the organization does lose a little bit of, you know, a little bit of leverage, I guess, or maybe even credibility with some of the players around the league where it's like, Masai was so good at yes, being aggressive acquiring guys, but also recruiting guys, like there was, there was something about Masai and now they're not going to have him there. Like how much of a hole do you think that is for the organization? Because we know the reality of the Toronto Raptors in regards

to the rest of the NBA, right? Like it's not easy to get certain players up here and they had that, you know, that lifeline with Maasai, they don't have it anymore. Do you think that's going to be a significant factor for the team? It has the possibility to for sure. I mean the one thing Maasai never changed though is actually completely, you know, reversing the viewpoint of this team, you know, from the rest of the league and the players throughout the NBA, right? He had to trade for Kawhi and then Kawhi left the second he could. He never landed the big fish in free agency that I think he was trying to get, that he was hoping to

get. So I do think you got to remember that, like, Messiah could not do that. Danny Green left the second he could. Now, maybe they didn't want him to return, right? Like Danny won and he made the right choice. He went to the Lakers and won in the bubble and won another ring, but Danny left too, you know, and Kawhi left. And so I do think where you, where maybe his value is, is more so with the younger players coming in, with the players on the perimeter with with what he built in

terms of you know his his eye for talent and In putting in this formula that allowed them to build up guys like Pascal Siakam and Fred Van Blee And OJ and an OB and others, you know deeper in the draft that became something I think in law in large part because of Messiah and then those guys wanted to be here. You know, they didn't want to necessarily leave. So I think maybe where his biggest impact was, you know, with the exception of the Kauais and the Danny Greens, was that he built something where a lot of players, once they got here, they wanted to stay.

He didn't change the perception of coming up here in the first place. Like that never really changed. I would say if anything though, it does probably take a hit, I don't know how substantial it is, because Messiah would have been the guy making the pitch. And now it's Bobby Webster. And Bobby's been in the seat for a while and Bobby's got cash in the league,

but he doesn't have the same persona. Like Messiah is here, he's a bigger than life personality and he's got an aura to him. And that's not something that can be replicated. Keith Pally can't make that sales pitch. He can't. He won't. You know the owner, the ownership can't the way that Messiah could. So I think there's something to it. It's more, it's deeper in the weeds. I think the impact that Messiah had in terms of that reputation that you're speaking of but you know his plan I guess I'm curious to see where it goes.

You know, they get through the draft, I'm sure he saw this coming. Now Bobby and his staff stick around. What happens in the next two weeks in the NBA? Because as we all know, it's absolutely bedlam and the Raptors better have a plan and they better be ready to execute it. Well, the moment that Yannis supposedly was open to being traded, people gave the Raptors a chance because of Masai. And now that he's out, and I don't know if Yannis is going to be traded or not this off

season and how long he's in Milwaukee, but you have to think that whatever the odds were that the Raptors would land someone like him, even though as you point out, he doesn't have the track record of going out and getting big names outside of the trade for Koi Leonard, that the Raptors, those odds have essentially been erased. Possibly for sure. Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any doubt. I think what Versailles represented also was he was the guy that won. Like he was the guy that put together the team that won.

And that's an important sales pitch for potential free agents or these big names we're talking of who effectively control their own destiny. Like Kevin Durant, he's not 25, he's not his prime anymore. He told Phoenix and the league, there's like two or three teams he'll go to and that's where he went. Like he went to Houston.

So that's still the reality of the NBA. I do think, you know, that's probably where the Raptors took a hit. The idea that somewhat of that status, maybe even Kawhi, right? Like it was reported on early like Kawhi wasn't ecstatic about coming up here. I'm sure Messiah sold it. You know, can the next guy sell it? Can Bobby Webster sell it? Can Keith Pelly Sell it. I mean that that's That's going to be a big big story moving forward again with the rafters with the Leafs with I guess TFC the Argos the Blue Jays if everything gets folded into one With Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, you know the Edward Rodgers Keith Pelly and whatever plan they're going to have for the Toronto sports scene

because there's been a lot of consistency, a lot of credibility with Masai Ujiri, Brendan Shanahan, and others for a long time. It feels like we've had two dominoes fall, major ones. The last month and a half was Shanahan and now Masai today. I'm bracing for more impact as we move forward. Well Hayes, how do you interpret sort of the beyond the savings that Tree Living makes here by getting Tavares under contract at four years by 4.38 million, beyond the here and now impact of that which is considerable considering every dollar counts and we know what can happen when a team gets capped out and needs things on its roster

They can't afford beyond that. Do you think there's any you know kind of tone setting going on here with Brad tree-living saying? Hey, this is this is a new era. This is not Kyle Dubas Being buddy buddy with all the agents and giving them every last nickel This is this is an era where it's got to mean something to be a maple leaf and that's gonna cost you. Am I making too much of that? Is that is that dreaming or can you see an element of truth to that? There's an element of truth to it. I think it possibly was a perfect storm here with Tavares. You know being here for seven years wanting to be a leaf remain a leaf. his family's here, he's set up.

But when the stars signed to Shane a week ago for effectively the same contract, right, with deferred money, it's effectively the same thing, it's actually a better cap hit for the Leafs. That was also what should have been applied here. So I don't even know if it's necessarily as much that tree living, by doing this with Tavares, is swinging it so far in the other end of the spectrum where it's like ruthless. I think it's more so that tree living is by doing this and getting and selling Tavares on the idea of accepting it and siding it, is that tree living is saying the days of

a Toronto tax are over. We're not going gonna treat you differently because of this perceived pressure that comes with the market. And this perceived tax that's necessary to possibly live and operate in this fish bowl that is the Maple Leafs. And I think that's probably what happened here.

Yes, it's a discount based on what we're gonna hear and what's gonna be said. And I'm sure if DeVaris got the market, maybe he could have got six million a year or 7 million a year. So could Matt Duchesne and you know, so could other players, Jamie bed maybe could have gone to market. You want to stay somewhere, you want to play, you want to win the least. I think it was mandatory that this finally happened.

And I am hopeful that this is the beginning of them simply playing by the same rules as everyone else and accepting, expecting their players to understand that that's going to be the case. Because we know with not necessarily the Tavares deal, the original one, but certainly with the Marder deal, the Matthews deal, I think Nylander's deal, it was just make them happy, don't extend it, make sure they're comfortable, whatever they need, whatever they want, just give it to them. Like that was the attitude. That was my perception of the attitude

in the end with negotiation. And it was always silly, it was always gonna cause them a problem in the end, and they were always gonna play by different rules, and I just, I think it hurt them in the end. And I think that's what this symbolizes to me, is yes, it's a discount, but he's not making a million dollars or $2 million.

He's still got term. He's still making good money. And I think the Matt Duchesne deal was assigned to the rest of the league. If he's willing to do that for Dallas, why would John not be willing to accept that for Toronto? You just gotta sell it. I think Trey Living sold it,

and I credit him for doing that. I think you bring up a good point there, Hayes, about in the past, in the past it felt like, hey, give these guys whatever they want or very close to it because, you know, it's hard enough to play in the league against everyone else. Why do we want more friction and more tension within the organization? So they got it, they didn't deliver. And John Tavares was a part of that group that didn't necessarily deliver come playoff

time. They won one round and now, you know, okay, two rounds because you win this year against Ottawa. But I guess now moving forward for Tavares, he's not going to be seen as the $11 million player. He's going to be seen as the $4.38 million player. When it's all said and done, how do you think the public perception of the John Tavares era is going to be viewed in Toronto? I think that's such a significant part of this and why it's a smart play for Tavares and then we're already seeing it sold as it should be. I think if I'm running his PR, sell it that you took a huge discount. Sell it that you were never leaving and sell it that the reason you're staying is because you want to win, right?

Not based on comfort, not based on, you know, you're going to morph into an ambassador once you retire and stay in Toronto the rest of your life, which I do think now this sets him up to do that. Right? I think he just, he rolls into the next Darrell Sittler in the future, right? The former league captain that was here forever, that everyone loves, that's from here. And I think from his standpoint, that's a really smart play. Because the fact of the matter is in this market, and I think a lot of the biggest hockey markets, in fact, I know all the biggest hockey markets, you have to be a mathematician half the time

when it comes to your evaluation, because of the hard salary cap, your number is always connected to your worth and your value. And now that he's making 4.38 million, there's a big separation in terms of the spotlight on John compared to what's gonna be on Austin and what's gonna be on William Nyland or what's gonna be on Matthew Nives when he signs his next deal. And I think that's wise for Taurus.

Like take a step back. Now he still has to pull his weight. He still has to pull his weight he still has to exceed the value of the contract if this team's gonna win that's the reality of all of this cap mechanism you need the majority if not all your players to exceed their actual cap dollar for the formula to work and free to win in the end but I think this is a PR win for Tavares because you want to stay here you took last quote less quote unquote and I think it

allows him to fade into the background which started last year when he gave up the captaincy. He's likely going to be a second maybe third line center by the end of the year and certainly by the end of the contract and if you're again two or three years down the road and he's a 20 goal scorer and just a crappy veteran, you don't want to be making seven or eight million. You want to be making 4.3. And I think he knew that. I think Trey Living knew that. And I think in the end, both sides can be happy with that. Well, Brian, we appreciate you taking some time to join us because that's all I've heard throughout the day. But what does Brian Hayes think about all

of this? I've been getting that and I've been getting How is O's back? Those are the two things. Yeah, O's just like laying it on so thick with the bad math. Like it's such an outrageous play. No one's buying it. No one should buy it, but he's laying it on thick. But yeah, I appreciate you stepping in.

Thanks guys. Like it's a big day. I wish I was in there with you. We'll be back on Monday. There'll be more news it's gonna be fun but uh... enjoy the rest of the day because some of the common for sure i guarantee it you have a lot of help yeah they have a lot to talk about on monday appreciate it and looking forward to uh... senior work whenever this golf uh... competition errors i think it's on

to have a look at awesome boys thanks guys thank you there's a bright is the host of this very program uh... overdrive I think it's on Tuesday, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Awesome stuff. All right, boys. Thanks, guys. Thank you. There's Brian Hayes, the host of this very program, Overdrive. The biggest songs in the world.

You've heard them countless times. Now learn the details of how they came to be. Join Ruby Carr for Encore, the stories behind the songs you love. New interviews and newly unearthed archive footage make for a fascinating weekly deep dive. Stream Encore, the stories behind the songs you love on IHAR Radio or wherever you get your podcasts.